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Thread: No course 14, no CCAF = Forced retirement

  1. #11
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    Re: No course 14, no CCAF = Forced retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Tak View Post
    Hyt for msgt is 24, why should they not get to stay past 20...
    They should get to stay to 24 if they continue to be highly productive and engaged, and are healthy, deployable, PCSable, etc.

    Okay, so I might cut a guy a little slack if he's at 18 years...has only 2 to go to retirement, etc. I'm not gonna put him out at that point unless is a more extreme reason. I'm more than happy to let a cripple ride out his last 2 years being undeployable...he gave us 18 good years, it's the least we could do.

    But, once he hits 20, it should be a lot easier to force him out...we're not taking anything from him at that point. Like I said, service beyond 20 should be at the strict convenience of the AF, IMO.

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    Re: No course 14, no CCAF = Forced retirement

    FLAPS and MM: Let's take a 20-year MSgt who's great in the trenches, mentors his troops well, deploys without any qualms, has tons of experience and savvy and is otherwise an asset to the AF. You'd be willing to get rid of him for the simple fact that he hasn't met optional enhancements to his professional development that may or may not translate into a promotion?

    IMHO, that short-sighted non-mission-enhancing sentiment is a part of what's wrong with the AF today. What's wrong with letting a great MSgt do 4 more years of shop supervision work if he's good at it? If he's gone as far as he cares to go with rank, what's the matter with letting him work his magic? Not everybody wants to be an upper-level-muckety-muck-manager neck deep in politics and red tape, and it's not like we're paying him more to do the same job he wants to do, so why not let him do it?

    Now, I can see your point if you have a lazy, profile-extending, non-deploying, bad-tempered, morale killing 9-5er spreading his ass in a basement office fiddling with numbers in Excel and making Power Points, but to paint all with a broad brush is a little extreme. Why lose good people that want to stay and are comfortable with their position and pay?
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  3. #13
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    Re: No course 14, no CCAF = Forced retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Aitrus View Post
    FLAPS and MM: Let's take a 20-year MSgt who's great in the trenches, mentors his troops well, deploys without any qualms, has tons of experience and savvy and is otherwise an asset to the AF. You'd be willing to get rid of him for the simple fact that he hasn't met optional enhancements to his professional development that may or may not translate into a promotion?

    IMHO, that short-sighted non-mission-enhancing sentiment is a part of what's wrong with the AF today. What's wrong with letting a great MSgt do 4 more years of shop supervision work if he's good at it? If he's gone as far as he cares to go with rank, what's the matter with letting him work his magic? Not everybody wants to be an upper-level-muckety-muck-manager neck deep in politics and red tape, and it's not like we're paying him more to do the same job he wants to do, so why not let him do it?
    I would like to see ANY over 20 service to be a privilege. IF that were the case, I can imagine that CCAF/Course 14 would be a discriminator used.

    I think the AF has made it abundantly clear that they desire for MSgts to have a CCAF and Course 14 complete...someone who chooses to not meet those expectations, is showing a little more than "just not having a degree"...they are showing that they don't really care what the AF wants.

    I don't view the CCAF/Course 14 as "things for promotion" so much as "things expected of a MSgt"

    Yes, they are "optional." But, IMO, service at 20+ yrs, a SRE, and a 5 EPR are also optional.

    In my perfect world, though, CCAF/C14 wouldn't be "mandatory" to get a SRE or "mandatory" for retention 20+...but rather the "norm" while still letting commanders make exceptions.

    So, I'm straddling the fence a little on this one...I'd still like it to be the norm, but yeah, I'd like the guy you described to be allowed an exception if his commander decided it is extremely convenient for the AF to retain him. So, the part I LIKE about the idea is the step toward looking at 20+ service to be a privilege moreso than that focus on CCAF/C14.

    Now, I can see your point if you have a lazy, profile-extending, non-deploying, bad-tempered, morale killing 9-5er spreading his ass in a basement office fiddling with numbers in Excel and making Power Points, but to paint all with a broad brush is a little extreme. Why lose good people that want to stay and are comfortable with their position and pay?
    I have a couple personal experiences that led me to this:

    Case 1: Back when TSgt HYT was 24...had a 22 yr TSgt eligible to reenlist. Okay guy, nothing special...a little disgruntled, on fat-boy program, etc (prior to the current PT-roid-rage)...well, I wanted the commander to deny him reenlistment and send him on his way...couldn't do it without disciplinary, etc....I thought, gee, it should be a lot easier to do that to this guy...not like we're taking away his retirement or something like if he were denied at 17 years or so...it was just time to move him on and get someone else.

    Case 2: MSgt at like 21 years, somehow picks up a line # for SMSgt. Stationed at Nellis..owns a house, etc. He also had diabetes or something where he couldn't PCS overseas, couldn't deploy, etc. AFPC would not PCS him CONUS-CONUS. Oh, and he was still in a MSgt slot as there was no SMSgt auth for his AFSC at Nellis. So, he sat there for 7 YEARS, doing a MSgt job, earning SMSgt pay, unable to deploy or PCS...until he HYT'd. Bullshit.

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    Re: No course 14, no CCAF = Forced retirement

    What about MSgt that has a Bachelors Degree but not a CCAF?
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    Re: No course 14, no CCAF = Forced retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Aitrus View Post
    FLAPS and MM: You'd be willing to get rid of him for the simple fact that he hasn't met optional enhancements to his professional development that may or may not translate into a promotion?.......
    What's wrong with letting a great MSgt do 4 more years of shop supervision work if he's good at it? If he's gone as far as he cares to go with rank, what's the matter with letting him work his magic?
    People make the mistake of thinking that since you can't make SMSgt without those things done, that the first level for which it is required, is SMSgt. It's not. These 2 things are expectations of MSgts as outlined in 36-2618. You are expected to do it and foster completion of education and appropriate level of PME for subordinates. You cannot be a good supervisor by telling folks to do these things while not having done them yourself.

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    Re: No course 14, no CCAF = Forced retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by FLAPS View Post
    I haven't heard about this, but I think it's a GREAT idea. CCAF can be knocked out following completion of your CDC EOC test (as a A1C), and Crs 14 can be taken care of as a TSgt. It's only five tests that can reasonably be done in less than five months....if that.

    If you are going to kick people out of the AF to get the numbers down, might as well go after those who clearly don't care about professional development.
    Blew course 14 off for two years, but finally got it done in August. test 1 on Tues, test 2 on Thurs, next week test 3 on Tues, test 4 on Thurs then finally test 5 the following week. 2 1/2 weeks and completed. I should have done that from day one.
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    Re: No course 14, no CCAF = Forced retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by hugomk View Post
    What about MSgt that has a Bachelors Degree but not a CCAF?
    Thank you for your service...off ya go.

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    Re: No course 14, no CCAF = Forced retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Measure Man View Post
    Thank you for your service...off ya go.
    Why not. Might as well make that BS work for you outside the military.
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    Re: No course 14, no CCAF = Forced retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by hugomk View Post
    What about MSgt that has a Bachelors Degree but not a CCAF?
    USUALLY these type only fall into but a few categories

    1. Too lazy to go down to Ed office and enroll....get CCAF because all requirements have been completed with Bachelors
    2. Too lazy to go down to Ed office and enroll...complete speech class (if you are a MSgt and cant CLEP it...wow is all I will say) and rest of requirements have been completed with Bachelors
    3. Disgruntled and just wants to buck the system, this individual probably hasnt completed course 14 either because he just wants to buck the system and will tell you he is "being held down by the man"

    As MM said...thank you for your service. Have a good day!

  10. #20
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    Re: No course 14, no CCAF = Forced retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Tak View Post
    Hey FLAPS stick to your officer knowledge, not all TSgts can do it.
    "Taken care of as a TSgt"...Who has been a TSgt 2 years and Who has been to the NCOA...
    First of all, I was a TSgt, so I think that makes me somewhat qualified to speak on their behalf. Second, my job as an officer is to understand enlisted professional development. To your credit though, I should have been clear on WHAT TYPE of TSgt can knock out their Crs 14. Either way, my statement was correct..."taken care of as a TSgt."

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