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Thread: Any Truth In This?

  1. #981
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    Re: Any Truth In This?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRUWIN View Post
    I like what Fogleman stood for. However, his emphasis on accountability after the Blackhawk being shot down led to the suicide of a TSgt after he was court martialed in the crash of a Bitburg F-15. To many it seemed if there was going to be any accountability in the Air Force it was going to rest on enlisted. Right or wrong that's the way a lot of us simply saw it at the time. It was only reinforced after Khobar Towers and Fogleman standing by his officers.
    I'd like to be proven wrong on this; was there ever a time that accountability *didn't* fall on the enlisted? Aside from Wynn & Moseley?

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    Re: Any Truth In This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pueblo View Post
    I'd like to be proven wrong on this; was there ever a time that accountability *didn't* fall on the enlisted? Aside from Wynn & Moseley?
    I remember about a year ago a number of commanders being fired due to nuclear-related issues. Believe at least one general was forced to retire. And a couple of years ago the AF JAG ended up retiring without his stars due to hanky-panky with the ladies. And believe late last year or earlier this year some O-6 JAG ended up retiring as an O-2 when it was found out he'd been disbarred many years ago, but apparently never told anyone in the AF about it. Those are the ones that immediately come to mind.

  3. #983
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    Re: Any Truth In This?

    Quote Originally Posted by OtisRNeedleman View Post
    I remember about a year ago a number of commanders being fired due to nuclear-related issues. Believe at least one general was forced to retire. And a couple of years ago the AF JAG ended up retiring without his stars due to hanky-panky with the ladies. And believe late last year or earlier this year some O-6 JAG ended up retiring as an O-2 when it was found out he'd been disbarred many years ago, but apparently never told anyone in the AF about it. Those are the ones that immediately come to mind.
    True, but those are exceptional cases and I would say the nuke-related firings were the result of a new mindset set in place by either Gates or Schwartz that placed a new emphasis on responsibility. In the case of the JAG, I don't see how an enlisted person even could take the fall. I should've said, "have officers ever really taken a hit pre-Moseley?" I would say Fogleman was following a long legacy of helping his friends save face. Granted, it was an opportunity to lead and set a new course that he missed out on, but his predecessors didn't lay any groundwork, either.

  4. #984
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    Re: Any Truth In This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pueblo View Post
    True, but those are exceptional cases and I would say the nuke-related firings were the result of a new mindset set in place by either Gates or Schwartz that placed a new emphasis on responsibility. In the case of the JAG, I don't see how an enlisted person even could take the fall. I should've said, "have officers ever really taken a hit pre-Moseley?" I would say Fogleman was following a long legacy of helping his friends save face. Granted, it was an opportunity to lead and set a new course that he missed out on, but his predecessors didn't lay any groundwork, either.
    Fogleman started the drum-roll for accountability.

    Which was fine when it ruined the lives and careers of enlisted...but, when that drumline steamrolled one of his buddies, BGen Terry Schwalier, Fogelman resigned in protest.

    After a long battle, Schwalier eventually won and got promoted to MGen in retirement.

    At least that's how I remember it.

  5. #985
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    Re: Any Truth In This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pueblo View Post
    I don't disagree with any of those principles, nor do I think Flynn didn't deserve to be disciplined, but Fogleman was a fighter pilot who came of age in the 1960's. I have an issue with a guy who likely tolerated adultery for the better part of his career suddenly deciding not to tolerate it when it involved a female officer.
    Come on, Pueblo...this is an assumption on your part and a stereotypical one at that. The General specifically said.... "I think that in the end this is not an issue of adultery....This is an issue about an officer who is entrusted to fly nuclear weapons, who disobeyed an order, who lied. That's what this is about." (Decoded, she was a liar and disobeyed a lawful order!)
    ChiefB

    It's the same in all wars, the very young and adventurous give up their lives for the old and cautious, and so the bluecollar for the privileged, the uneducated for the student, the poor for the well off, the patriot for the politician, and the few for the many.

    TC6, C5

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    Senior Member BRUWIN's Avatar
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    Re: Any Truth In This?

    Quote Originally Posted by OtisRNeedleman View Post
    I remember about a year ago a number of commanders being fired due to nuclear-related issues. Believe at least one general was forced to retire. And a couple of years ago the AF JAG ended up retiring without his stars due to hanky-panky with the ladies. And believe late last year or earlier this year some O-6 JAG ended up retiring as an O-2 when it was found out he'd been disbarred many years ago, but apparently never told anyone in the AF about it. Those are the ones that immediately come to mind.
    But they all were retired. Enlisted guys would not get retirement. Look at former CCM Bill Guerney...what he did was way less than Gen Fiscus because it at least his relationships were consensual. He got no retirement and now he's bagging groceries somewhere.

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    Re: Any Truth In This?

    My experience through this time was the enlisted force bore the brunt of the "accountability". Officers, in particular flyers, got a second pass - while the poor enlisted toad just got hammered.

    It is still happening - the frat boy officer crowd will get a pass, while the Joe work a day SRA will be crucified for the smallest issue.

    There was and still are two Air Forces: The officer flyers, and all the rest.

  8. #988
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    Re: Any Truth In This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pueblo View Post
    I don't disagree with any of those principles, nor do I think Flynn didn't deserve to be disciplined, but Fogleman was a fighter pilot who came of age in the 1960's. I have an issue with a guy who likely tolerated adultery for the better part of his career suddenly deciding not to tolerate it when it involved a female officer.
    Along the lines of what ChiefB said - you missed the point, just like the people General Fogleman was responding to - adultery was a side issue, but the media and her supporters hyped it up and made it look like the primary issue.

    Funny thing is, none of them mentioned much about the part about her being given a direct order - at least twice if I remember correctly - by her commander to stay away from the guy and her disobeying his orders both times.

    Instead, he and the big, mean Air Force had the audacity to pick on her because she put self-gratification ahead of everyone and everything else.
    Perfect is the enemy of good enough.
    The pursuit of excellence only for the sake of achieving excellence is a waste:
    Time and energy spent pursuing excellence in one area is
    time and energy that could have been used to improve in another area.

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    Re: Any Truth In This?

    Quote Originally Posted by CLSE View Post
    Funny thing is, none of them mentioned much about the part about her being given a direct order - at least twice if I remember correctly - by her commander to stay away from the guy and her disobeying his orders both times.
    Therein lies the rub............................and what sealed her fate. She strayed from the reservation and besmirched the O corps by indulging in dalliances with an enlisted swine..............

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    Re: Any Truth In This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Z1911 View Post
    This was posted today on the USAF Aim Points:

    "Standards"
    Commentary by by Chief Master Sgt. Eric Molloy
    438th Air Expeditionary Wing Command Chief


    Must be something in the CENTAF CCM blue kool-aid...
    WTFO? What the f**k is with people like this?

    I went to a restaurant for drill weekend and was eating a big sandwich that was pretty sloppy, so I rolled up my cuffs so I wouldn't get my motherf**king uniform dirty, since I can't take my shirt off in a restaurant.

    So is this jerk-off really going to tell me that I'm supposed to get my uniform dirty just so I don't violate the uniforms standards by rolling my cuffs up for 15 minutes?

    There's this really amazing thing, it's called common sense and when properly applied, it makes life easier...

    I wonder if it hurts to be that stupid...
    Perfect is the enemy of good enough.
    The pursuit of excellence only for the sake of achieving excellence is a waste:
    Time and energy spent pursuing excellence in one area is
    time and energy that could have been used to improve in another area.

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