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Thread: Questions for Liberals

  1. #1
    Variable Wind
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    Questions for Liberals

    I desire some insight into some observations concerning liberal/progressive beliefs that seem a bit contradictory to me. I am going to list some of these contradictions and observations and would like to know what exactly drives the liberal thought process to reach these conclusions.

    Id rather not take the easy way out and try to answer these questions by using 8 acid tabs. Please keep in mind that I do not necessarily support either position on a given topic discussed here.

    1) the AIDS virus is spread by a lack of federal funding.

    2) You are against capital punishment but for abortion on demand.

    3) When it comes to abortion, a woman has the right to hoose because it is her body, but when it comes to fast food, the govt needs to step in because you can't be trusted to make such an important decision when it comes to your body.

    4) The same public school idiot who can't teach 4th graders how to read is qualified to teach those same kids about sex.

    5) Trial lawyers are selfless heroes and doctors are overpaid.

    6) Guns in the hands of law-abiding Americans are more of a threat than nuclear weapons in the hands of the Iranians.

    7) Global temperatures are less affected by cyclical, documented changes in the brilliance of the sun, and more affected by yuppies driving SUVs.

    8) Gender roles are artificial but being gay is natural.

    9) Businesses create oppression and governments create prosperity.

    10) Self-esteem is more important than actually doing something to earn it.

    11) There was no art before federal funding.

    12) The free market that gives us 500+ channels can't deliver the quality that PBS does.

    13) The NRA is bad, because they stand up for certain parts of the Constitution, while the ACLU is good, because they stand up for certain parts of the Constitution.

    14) Taxes are too low but ATM fees are too high.

    15) Cesar Chavez is more important to American history than Thomas Jefferson.

    16) Standardized tests are racist, but racial quotas and set-asides aren't.

    17) Second-hand smoke is more dangerous than HIV.

    18) Conservatives are racists but that black people couldn't make it without government help.

    19) The only reason socialism hasn't worked anywhere it's been tried is because the right people haven't been in charge.

    Please address any of the following. You may not subscribe to all of these ideas but please feel free to respond to the ones you do.

  2. #2
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    Re: Questions for Liberals

    I'm not a liberal but since I've got a couple in my office I can answer each via this simply observation...

    Liberalism (in it's post-1960s incarnation) is simply narcissism applied politically. Look at any position they grasp on to and realize that they are simply focused on methods in which they think their own self-percieved greatness can be best supported by the rest of us. This is also why we're starting to see collisions of interest amongst liberals...ie, they want high-speed rail but can't build it because of the environment and etc. They insist on reproductive rights but at the same time support governments like China and "zero percent population growth policies. Finally, to be a liberal is to be amoral and woefully uninformed on any given issue. Because again, it's all about their individuality and ways through policy that it can be propped up and furthered above and beyond all else.

  3. #3
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    Re: Questions for Liberals

    As a self identified liberal (I consider myself a moderate with liberal tendencies) I will take a stab, or at least provide my view points

    Quote Originally Posted by Variable Wind View Post
    1) the AIDS virus is spread by a lack of federal funding. .
    No the AIDS virus is spread by morons and idiots. The deal with federal funding, is trying to educate people about AIDS, and to make it alright to get tested if your concern


    Quote Originally Posted by Variable Wind View Post
    2) You are against capital punishment but for abortion on demand..
    I am actually for capitol punishment in certain cases, pre-mediated murder, pedophilla, elderly abuse. I don't support abortion on demand unless it is to save the life of the mother in extreme circumstance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Variable Wind View Post
    3) When it comes to abortion, a woman has the right to hoose because it is her body, but when it comes to fast food, the govt needs to step in because you can't be trusted to make such an important decision when it comes to your body..
    Yes, I feel the woman has the right to choose an abortion, because it is her body. I don't think the government has the right to close down fast food places, but if the companies (fast food, or otherwise) won't at least inform people what crap their food are made out of, then yes the government has the right to mandate they inform the consumer. Leaving it up to us, the consumer, if we really want to eat that stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Variable Wind View Post
    4) The same public school idiot who can't teach 4th graders how to read is qualified to teach those same kids about sex..
    I think education should be federally standardized. If you leave it up to the states, then you aren't getting standarized education from one state to the next. And at some point 2+2=5 may actually be correct in a state. Sex education should be taught by the parents. Let them deal with it if their lil'Suzy gets knocked up at 15.

    Quote Originally Posted by Variable Wind View Post
    5) Trial lawyers are selfless heroes and doctors are overpaid..
    I am a medical professional, so my view point is skewed. There needs to be tort reform regarding malpractice and negligence lawsuits. Some doctors are overpaid, but then those are the ones who do just research, or have been practing for decades. My dad is a lawyer, and he knows lawyers aren't selfish hereos. He is also a conservative, so we have fun discussions alot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Variable Wind View Post
    6) Guns in the hands of law-abiding Americans are more of a threat than nuclear weapons in the hands of the Iranians..
    No. Key word there was law-adbiding. I don't know why someone needs to have a fully automatic assult rifle, or clips exceeding 15 rounds. But if they are law adbiding then they arent going to be a problem. Iran scares the hell out of me, who knows what Achmedwhatshisnutsjimabad is going to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Variable Wind View Post
    7) Global temperatures are less affected by cyclical, documented changes in the brilliance of the sun, and more affected by yuppies driving SUVs..
    We have an effect on the environment, that's an obvious fact. But I have always thought that the climate is mostly cyclical in nature. So not a big Gore and Global warming supporter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Variable Wind View Post
    8) Gender roles are artificial but being gay is natural..
    From all my sociology and anthropology classes, yes that is true. There is archiological evidence that proves that most gender roles are artifical, and dictated by societal standards at the time. As one of them their gays on this board, yeah it is natural.

    Quote Originally Posted by Variable Wind View Post
    9) Businesses create oppression and governments create prosperity..
    The argument is true, and also can be true in reverse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Variable Wind View Post
    10) Self-esteem is more important than actually doing something to earn it..
    In some cases yes, but I do subscribe to the theory that your self-esteem will be a hell of a lot better if you earn it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Variable Wind View Post
    11) There was no art before federal funding..
    Hmmm...I might get kicked out of the liberal club on this one. We should not be paying to subsidize art.

    Quote Originally Posted by Variable Wind View Post
    12) The free market that gives us 500+ channels can't deliver the quality that PBS does..
    Is PBS even on anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Variable Wind View Post
    13) The NRA is bad, because they stand up for certain parts of the Constitution, while the ACLU is good, because they stand up for certain parts of the Constitution..
    See my answer for #9

    Quote Originally Posted by Variable Wind View Post
    14) Taxes are too low but ATM fees are too high. .
    Not sure why this one was put in there. I think those of us on the lower end of the icome scale, should pay less in over all taxes. While we not spend as much, we spend more often, because we need more neccessities more often, we can't afford to buy them all at once.

    Quote Originally Posted by Variable Wind View Post
    15) Cesar Chavez is more important to American history than Thomas Jefferson..
    No. I don't know to many liberals who have said that. The only ones I can think of who might say that are in California and Mexican. I am in California and I have never heard that

    Quote Originally Posted by Variable Wind View Post
    16) Standardized tests are racist, but racial quotas and set-asides aren't..
    Standardized tests aren't, the quotas and set-asides are. The reason for the quotas was to original combat the old Jim Crow type laws that encouraged discrimination. We do need to look into seeing if the quotas are needed anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Variable Wind View Post
    17) Second-hand smoke is more dangerous than HIV. .
    I'm an ex smoker, and second hand smoke is more dangerous, because it is easier to come in contact with then HIV.

    Quote Originally Posted by Variable Wind View Post
    18) Conservatives are racists but that black people couldn't make it without government help..
    I think conservatives are more likely to be obvious racists, but liberals trying to be overly non racist maybe trying to overcompensate. Blacks not making it without government help I think is crap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Variable Wind View Post
    19) The only reason socialism hasn't worked anywhere it's been tried is because the right people haven't been in charge..
    Capitalism only obviously hasn't work. And Socialism only won't work. You need some sort of socialism along with some form of capitalism. Funny, that's what we are doing. Medicare, Social Security, DOMA, the Health Care reform, Veterans Benefits...all just some examples.

    Edit:

    That's the sort of attitude that makes the conservative movement look ignorant. Both groups have double-standards and contradictions. And you can't equate liberals here with communists in China. The fact of the matter is we are Americans, and to be completely polarized like we are is against everything that makes this country great. I am not a liberal because I am gay, I am a liberal because I am a veteran and because I am jewish. I used to be a Republican, but the social influence of the christian colition is what helped make me switch sides. While there are some ethnic and religious minorites within the conservative movement, the overwhelming majority of them are white and christian. This country is more than that. And it is better then just one view point.

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    Re: Questions for Liberals

    - If the woman has the right choose because it is her body, does the baby in her womb not get a say in the matter?

    - Capitalism has never existed in the first place.

    - Show me one instance in which government has created prosperity. And no, don't cite FDR because that myth was debunked two decades ago.

    - Show me evidence that conservatives are more likely to be racists...and while you google it, I'll go ahead and point at inner city America and places like Detroit where liberals have governed for years. The only thing those populations have gotten out of the deal are empty promises every election cycle from the left. If that isn't racist I don't know what is. If that isn't good enough I'll cite any of the many instances of the left jumping all over people of color who disagreed with the leftist agenda. (And if you want to shift to sexism I can accomodate because libs are just as guilty on that count too).

    The problem with liberalism is that it attempts to dissolve anything resembling standards. Without some baseline anything goes. That's fine if you are intellectually an adolescent hell bent on pursuing whatever feel good thing of the moment moves you. It doesn't work though in the real world. In the real world actions have consequences both good and bad - no matter how hard libs try and avoid it.

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    Re: Questions for Liberals

    By the way, with regards to taxation:

    - Subtract from the amount of taxes you "paid in" the amount of your "refund". That is what you paid in taxes. It is a fact that the majority of taxes in this country are paid by the top end of the income scale.

    - Don't even trot out the notion that we should raise corporate taxes. Why? First, American corporations are already taxed at about 10% more than their EU counterparts (the US rate is approx 35%, the EU 25%). Singapore and Hong Kong feature even lower corporate tax rates than the EU. But in any case, no corporation pays taxes to begin with - it is passed on to you and me at the check out counter in a higher sticker price. Want to help out the little guy and make our corporations more competitive? Lower corporate taxes. On top of that eliminate tarrifs on export items like the EU has done so we can sell products overseas and can compete (ie, a Buick can't compete with a BMW because Buick is taxed on the vehicle as an export item while a BMW made in Germany isn't).

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    Re: Questions for Liberals

    Quote Originally Posted by Voiceofsanity View Post
    - If the woman has the right choose because it is her body, does the baby in her womb not get a say in the matter?
    Do you get to tell a woman she can't do something? I don't agree with abortion, but it's not our decision to make. It is hers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voiceofsanity View Post
    - Capitalism has never existed in the first place.
    Neither has true socialism


    Quote Originally Posted by Voiceofsanity View Post
    - Show me one instance in which government has created prosperity. And no, don't cite FDR because that myth was debunked two decades ago.
    Ike and the interstate highway system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voiceofsanity View Post
    - Show me evidence that conservatives are more likely to be racists...and while you google it, I'll go ahead and point at inner city America and places like Detroit where liberals have governed for years. The only thing those populations have gotten out of the deal are empty promises every election cycle from the left. If that isn't racist I don't know what is. If that isn't good enough I'll cite any of the many instances of the left jumping all over people of color who disagreed with the leftist agenda. (And if you want to shift to sexism I can accomodate because libs are just as guilty on that count too).
    No what I said was that conservatives are more likely going to be more overtly racist, while liberals are more likely to be hidden racist. And I can show you instances where conservative movement has been overtly racist. It's both sides that are guilty, not just the one.


    Quote Originally Posted by Voiceofsanity View Post
    The problem with liberalism is that it attempts to dissolve anything resembling standards. Without some baseline anything goes. That's fine if you are intellectually an adolescent hell bent on pursuing whatever feel good thing of the moment moves you. It doesn't work though in the real world. In the real world actions have consequences both good and bad - no matter how hard libs try and avoid it.
    Like I said, its that polarizing attitiude that ruins this country. The conservatives also make choices with consequences. Us liberals don't have a monopoly on that. And the thought that liberalism is hell bent on dissolving anything with standards is an outright inaccuracy. How is ensuring equal right not a good standard? How is treating people with respect and dignity a bad thing?

    As for your taxes, all I gave was my opinion of them. In fact, the OP was just asking the liberals on this board for some clarification on some of the things he sees. I know that the higher income pay more, but I also know there are more loop holes for the higher income and for coporations. He wasn't insulting, but you are. See the difference...you want a civil discussion, then act civil. Not degradating. At no point did I go out of my way and insult conservatives

  7. #7
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    Re: Questions for Liberals

    I'd love to believe your claim that the left seeks equality, tolerance, and respect of others but it isn't true. The left seeks those qualities of selective groups that are useful to the left. But of those that aren't the left spews hatred and derision. Just look at how the left portrays Christians. Or stay at home moms. Shall I continue?

    And yes, we've seen full blown socialism and it has been an horrific failure everywhere it has been applied.

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    Re: Questions for Liberals

    Well excuse me for speaking my mind before the great, vast, and allegedly unbiased "middle"!

  9. #9
    Variable Wind
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    Re: Questions for Liberals

    Quote Originally Posted by nicknack View Post
    As a self identified liberal (I consider myself a moderate with liberal tendencies) I will take a stab, or at least provide my view points
    I see you as liberalish...more libertarian, as I see that you and I agree on, dare I say, probably over half of what you discussed. Try to remember, this wasnt so much of a conservative vs liberal point/counterpoint. This was me taking the views and stances of the progressive group as a whole.

    Full disclosure. I am a conservative...a CONSTITUTIONAL conservative. There are things that I agree with in the GOP and there are things I disagree with. My politics are in line more with the Tea Party, which is more on fiscal conservativism and small on social conservativism. It isnt as racist as people scare themselves and others into thinking.

    I appreciate the response, no patronizing or sarcasm intended. I like how you answered my questions and I am glad you took the time to post. Thank you.

    The fact of the matter is we are Americans, and to be completely polarized like we are is against everything that makes this country great. I am not a liberal because I am gay, I am a liberal because I am a veteran and because I am jewish. I used to be a Republican, but the social influence of the christian colition is what helped make me switch sides. While there are some ethnic and religious minorites within the conservative movement, the overwhelming majority of them are white and christian. This country is more than that. And it is better then just one view point.
    I disagree, this country was borne out of political discourse even decades after we won our independance. I think the diversity in opinion makes us stronger but weaker at the same time. I do not see how being jewish would make you a liberal or a veteran. Most veterans I know, and almost every Jew that I know is conservative or moderate leaning conservative. I find it hard that you use those identities to define your political ideology. I certainly dont for you or for me.

    Do not forget, the overwhelmingly largest demographic of this country is white, and the majority of this country is Christian. There is a lot more to this country than just the cities, there are the rural and rural-suburban small town America which still has an identity of its own and it certainly isnt as evil and stupid as the media has made it out to be.

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    Re: Questions for Liberals

    Really, most Jews you know are Conservative? I see the opposite. The exception was my Grandfather, he actually worked for Ike, and was a die hard Republican. There are pictures of him shaking hands with all the Republican presidents since and including Ike, so Nixon, Ford, Reagan and both Bush's. My mom, her brothers and sisters the exact opposite (meaning very liberal). And one of my uncles is a retired full bird Colonial from the Army. The majority of my Synagogue also predominately liberal. And in polling research the Jews tend to swing to the left. I had mentioned it as part of my political leanings, because of the huge influence of the Christian right in the conservative movement. They scare the hell out of me (pun intended).

    I also switched political idealogy while I was in the Navy, I am from Minnesota, and surprisingly enough the former, more left then Lenin, Senator from Minnesota Paul Wellstone was a huge supporter of troops and veterans, not so much for the wars. I did some more research, and to me, I saw more support for the troops and veterans from the left, and just a lot of lip service from the right. Both sides use us as pawns though, I am not completely blinded.

    I think the biggest reason I swing more to the left, as I am somewhat of a minority. I keep hearing about how faith plays a big part in the conservative movement, but it's the Christan faith they are talking about. The conservative movement is not wholely welcoming towards people with different view points or even religious differences. I know that Consitutional Conservatives are different, my dad is one. And I can totally get behind the general ideas of the Tea Party movement, but it's been highjacked by the GOP and the Christan right, so there is no place for me there. I grew up in the Midwest, so I have seen small town White Christan America. Family in a small town in Nebraska even (Christans from my dad's side), great town, great people. But they need to remember that there are more people then they see also.

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