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Thread: Uniformed Services Former Spouse Protection Act (USFSPA)

  1. #101
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    Re: Uniformed Services Former Spouse Protection Act (USFSPA)

    Nice.. Personally i would love to send this to all those 'senators and representatives that AFN loved to show on TV over the xmas hol's saying that they "Do all they can to help us valued military personnel out'... and see if they really put their money where their mouth is..

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    Unhappy Re: Uniformed Services Former Spouse Protection Act (USFSPA)

    Quote Originally Posted by netter8848 View Post
    Not only should the former spouse have to prove that the divorce was caused by the service member, the spouse should have to prove that they were SUPPORTIVE of the service member's career! My ex bitched and bitched and bitched. If I had to work late, he bitched. If I had to go TDY, he bitched. He made my life miserable, because I did what I signed up to do. For almost 20 years, he bitched and bitched about my military commitments, never participated in holiday parties, Dining Outs, any unit functions. And he should get half of my retirement? I don't think so. He didn't, I retired with disability, but oh, he so could have!


    I was married to my husband for 30 years, and I loved him very much but during that time he was gone most of it, to duty stations I could not go, he cheated, had an child out of wedlock and then on Feb 14th( he had retired in November) he said he wanted a divorce. He was seeing women on the side while I was at work and paying the household bills and buying the groceries and anything he wanted. I did everything to hold my marriage together, not out of wanting money, but because I loved him. So to say I didn't earn that money...I gave up my career in the navy, paid my way by working and paying household bills and I was rewarded with the loss my home and most everything else because he had a better lawyer and had to start from scratch. So, it rubs both ways...

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    Re: Uniformed Services Former Spouse Protection Act (USFSPA)

    Quote Originally Posted by sherrylabtec View Post
    I was married to my husband for 30 years, and I loved him very much but during that time he was gone most of it, to duty stations I could not go, he cheated, had an child out of wedlock and then on Feb 14th( he had retired in November) he said he wanted a divorce. He was seeing women on the side while I was at work and paying the household bills and buying the groceries and anything he wanted. I did everything to hold my marriage together, not out of wanting money, but because I loved him. So to say I didn't earn that money...I gave up my career in the navy, paid my way by working and paying household bills and I was rewarded with the loss my home and most everything else because he had a better lawyer and had to start from scratch. So, it rubs both ways...
    It does but unfortunately the way the law is written a military member whose spouse behaves in the manner yours did still gets part of the military member's retirement and that is the crux of the problem. Not that it shouldn't happen but a judge should hear testimony as to behavior and chances lost because of the civilian spouse's life with her/his military member. The pay (and it is pay not a pension annuity) is paid for a minimum of 20 years faithful and honorable service. Payment to any party should be subject to the same conditions.

    (go ahead MM).
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    Re: Uniformed Services Former Spouse Protection Act (USFSPA)

    Quote Originally Posted by TJMAC77SP View Post
    The pay (and it is pay not a pension annuity) is paid for a minimum of 20 years faithful and honorable service.
    (go ahead MM).
    Okay...

    Let's start with a simple one:

    If it were pay why do you get a 1099-R and not a W-2?

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    Re: Uniformed Services Former Spouse Protection Act (USFSPA)

    Quote Originally Posted by Measure Man View Post
    Okay...

    Let's start with a simple one:

    If it were pay why do you get a 1099-R and not a W-2?

    My favorite subject!!!!

    All of the long term forum members must have known that this discussion would quickly bring me out of the woodwork.
    and you're right MM - Military retirees should get a W-2 instead of a 1099-r.

    Now for my simple questions...

    If my military retirement pay is a property, then where will that property of mine go when I die? When I die, will my military retirement pay then be sent via direct deposit to a bank in Heaven?

    If military retirement pay is a property, then why does the former military spouse stop receiving her property (i.e., her cut of the military retirement income) when her ex-hubby dies (assuming SBP was not granted in the divorce)?

    If military retirement pay is community property, then why are social security retirement payments not community property?

    And here is an oldie but a goodie... A military service member must serve 20 years in order to receive military retirement income. Why can a military spouse receive a lifetime share of that military retirement income even though she was married to a military service member for considerably less than 20 years?

    Now for a very serious issue...

    I am sure that a large number of civilian family court judges never served in the military and may know little, if anything, about the military. Why do we assume that those civilian judges, with their little knowledge of the military, will be able to fairly divide military retirement pay? If we are going to call military retirement pay a property and allow a civilian family court judge to divide that so-called property, then we need to have a law, a federal law, that provides the family court with some guidance on how to fairly divide that property. A federal law is needed because military retirement pay is a federal pay, and we want the family courts to divide that federal pay in a consistent manner.

    Now for my proposal...

    Here's an idea... Let's treat everyone fairly in a divorce court. We don't want to be unfair to the military service member, and we also don't want to be unfair to the soon-to-be former military spouse. So here's my proposal to treat everyone fairly...

    1. If a military spouse has been married to a military service member for less than 6 years, then the military spouse will be awarded none of the military retirement pay in a divorce.

    2. If a military spouse has been married to a military service member for more than 6 years, but less than 19 years, then the military spouse will be awarded a lump sum of the military retirement pay. The military's involuntary separation pay tables will be used to calculate her lump sum.

    The link for the involuntary separation pay tables is here.

    For example, let's say that the wife of an O-5 divorces her husband and she will have been married for 16 years at the time of the divorce. Her share of the military retirement pay will be $151,586. Of note: The former spouse's lump sum share of the retirement will be based on her hubby's rank at the time of the divorce; not at the time of his retirement. The O-5 can pay that amount directly to his ex-wife or pay it through an allotment (with interest) from his military retirement pay. Of course, the allotment must be a fair percentage of his military retirement pay.

    3. If a military spouse has been married to a military service member for 19 years or more, then the military spouse will be awarded 50% of the military retirement pay for life.

    Note: those years of marriage only include the years of marriage during which the service member performed creditable military service. For example, let's say a woman marries a military service member and the military service member then retires from the military a year after their wedding. 20 years later, the couple divorce. The woman would receive none of the military retirement pay since she was only married for one year during her hubby's military career and she would fall under the "less than 6 years" category above.

    Is that proposal fair? If not, then why not? Is seems that my idea would provide fairness to military service members and also former military spouses like sherrylabtec

    I'll tell you who will be adamantly opposed to my idea - the divorce lawyers. Divorce lawyers make a lot of money arguing over how to divide military retirement income. USFSPA in its current form is often described as the lawyers' playground. My idea will significantly reduce the billable hours charged by the divorce lawyers.

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    Re: Uniformed Services Former Spouse Protection Act (USFSPA)

    USN :banana: My very most favorite he man woman hater!!!!!! How you been?
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    Re: Uniformed Services Former Spouse Protection Act (USFSPA)

    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post
    My favorite subject!!!!

    All of the long term forum members must have known that this discussion would quickly bring me out of the woodwork.
    and you're right MM - Military retirees should get a W-2 instead of a 1099-r.
    Thanks.

    Now for my simple questions...

    If military retirement pay is a property, then why does the former military spouse stop receiving her property (i.e., her cut of the military retirement income) when her ex-hubby dies (assuming SBP was not granted in the divorce)?
    Hmmm...very similar to an annuity again. If you buy an annuity, generally speaking, that annuity stops paying when you die an no one else gets it. Yes, there are some different annuities out there that do transfer to a beneficiary, but generally no. Would you say this means that if you purchase an annuity it is therefore pay an not property? Hint: no.

    If military retirement pay is community property, then why are social security retirement payments not community property?
    Because military retirement is not social security and social security is not military retirement.

    When you were active duty...did you have a deduction for on your LES for the military retirement system? Did that deduction go to pay current retirees?

    No...they are different programs, not related in any way.

    And here is an oldie but a goodie... A military service member must serve 20 years in order to receive military retirement income. Why can a military spouse receive a lifetime share of that military retirement income even though she was married to a military service member for considerably less than 20 years?
    Again...we can find other parallels out there. Often, a union member must have 5 or 10 years vested vested to be eligible for a union pension. That pension is divisibile as property regardless of the length of marriage.

    Now for a very serious issue...

    I am sure that a large number of civilian family court judges never served in the military and may know little, if anything, about the military. Why do we assume that those civilian judges, with their little knowledge of the military, will be able to fairly divide military retirement pay? If we are going to call military retirement pay a property and allow a civilian family court judge to divide that so-called property, then we need to have a law, a federal law, that provides the family court with some guidance on how to fairly divide that property. A federal law is needed because military retirement pay is a federal pay, and we want the family courts to divide that federal pay in a consistent manner.
    Many judges were never doctors...how can they fairly divide a doctor's pay? Many were not musicians, how can they fairly divide royalty and intellectual property rights? Many judges were never in the UAW Union...how can they...blah blah blah.

    Judges know the law...laws govern all these things.

    Or, do you think judges should only be able to rule on the divorces of lawyers and judges
    Now for my proposal...

    Here's an idea... Let's treat everyone fairly in a divorce court. We don't want to be unfair to the military service member, and we also don't want to be unfair to the soon-to-be former military spouse. So here's my proposal to treat everyone fairly...

    1. If a military spouse has been married to a military service member for less than 6 years, then the military spouse will be awarded none of the military retirement pay in a divorce.

    2. If a military spouse has been married to a military service member for more than 6 years, but less than 19 years, then the military spouse will be awarded a lump sum of the military retirement pay. The military's involuntary separation pay tables will be used to calculate her lump sum.

    The link for the involuntary separation pay tables is here.

    For example, let's say that the wife of an O-5 divorces her husband and she will have been married for 16 years at the time of the divorce. Her share of the military retirement pay will be $151,586. Of note: The former spouse's lump sum share of the retirement will be based on her hubby's rank at the time of the divorce; not at the time of his retirement. The O-5 can pay that amount directly to his ex-wife or pay it through an allotment (with interest) from his military retirement pay. Of course, the allotment must be a fair percentage of his military retirement pay.

    3. If a military spouse has been married to a military service member for 19 years or more, then the military spouse will be awarded 50% of the military retirement pay for life.

    Note: those years of marriage only include the years of marriage during which the service member performed creditable military service. For example, let's say a woman marries a military service member and the military service member then retires from the military a year after their wedding. 20 years later, the couple divorce. The woman would receive none of the military retirement pay since she was only married for one year during her hubby's military career and she would fall under the "less than 6 years" category above.

    Is that proposal fair? If not, then why not? Is seems that my idea would provide fairness to military service members and also former military spouses like sherrylabtec

    I'll tell you who will be adamantly opposed to my idea - the divorce lawyers. Divorce lawyers make a lot of money arguing over how to divide military retirement income. USFSPA in its current form is often described as the lawyers' playground. My idea will significantly reduce the billable hours charged by the divorce lawyers.
    I like your idea 100%...I've advocated for a long time that there should be a table of "equivalent value" based on a members years and rank at the time of divorce to enable a lump sum payment...protecting both the servicemember from paying for his future promotion and advancement. And protecting the spouse from the members future misconduct, etc.

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    Re: Uniformed Services Former Spouse Protection Act (USFSPA)

    Quote Originally Posted by Measure Man View Post
    Because military retirement is not social security and social security is not military retirement.

    No...they are different programs, not related in any way..
    Nice dodge of the point that I made. So I'll ask the question again.

    Why are social security retirement payments not community property?


    Quote Originally Posted by Measure Man View Post
    Many judges were never doctors...how can they fairly divide a doctor's pay? Many were not musicians, how can they fairly divide royalty and intellectual property rights? ..
    The judges almost certainly don't divide the pay fairly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Measure Man View Post
    Judges know the law...laws govern all these things.

    .
    USFSPA is a law that is really bad. It needs to be changed.

    Laws in our country used to govern slavery. That doesn't mean that slavery was right simply because it was legal.

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    Re: Uniformed Services Former Spouse Protection Act (USFSPA)

    Quote Originally Posted by Measure Man View Post
    I like your idea 100%...
    Thank you. It is always nice to find a point of agreement.

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    Re: Uniformed Services Former Spouse Protection Act (USFSPA)

    Quote Originally Posted by GodFather View Post
    Pussies...
    hmmmmm well some things have changed just dropped by to give some love... Hope everyone is doing well and their families are well - Take care
    Texas Has The Death Penalty - We Use It!:biggrin

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