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Thread: EPR raters told to look at how they give scores

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    EPR raters told to look at how they give scores

    Don’t look for immediate or drastic changes to enlisted performance reports.

    Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force James Roy is telling airmen they need to look at themselves — not the forms — if they want to see fewer maximum EPR scores.

    “I’ve been told to fix [EPRs} since Day Minus-1,” Roy told a group of mostly senior noncommissioned officers and majors Sept. 16 at the Air Force Association’s Air and Space Conference near Washington. “I don’t think there is anything wrong with the system ... with the form.”

    Roy made it clear he supports the current mix of skill and professional knowledge test scores, credit for selected decorations, seniority and EPR scores that factor in an airman’s promotion score.

    Ratings on EPRs have been on the rise for much of the past two decades, according to Air Force data.

    In 1989, the Air Force cited the need to bring ratings back in line as one reason it was switching from the Airman Performance Report and its nine-point evaluation scale to the five-point EPR. A 5 was supposed to be for only the best airmen.

    Today, raters give out 5s routinely. So-called “firewall 5s” add up to 135 points, the maximum toward promotion.

    In his speech, Roy called on raters to evaluate their airmen honestly. They shouldn’t expect a new form or directive to change the scores.

    “It’s not Chief Roy’s problem,” he said. “It’s our problem.”

    Leaders revised the EPR form in 2007 to reflect ability, not readiness for promotion. Now, raters score airmen from 1 for poor to 5 for “truly among the best.” Scores have fallen slightly since the change, Roy said.

    A question from the audience illustrated the dilemma of EPR raters.

    A major told Roy she doesn’t give a 5 to airmen who scored 80 points or below on the physical fitness test. Though a passing score, 80 points in the major’s estimation showed the airman wasn’t “truly among the best” as a 5 calls for. She asked Roy pointedly if her thinking is right.

    Roy was firm that an airman who failed the PT test shouldn’t receive a 5, but noted there isn’t a set rule on how passing PT tests scores should be figured into an EPR rating.

    The major and all raters, Roy advised, must look at an airmen’s overall performance.

    “You’ve got to make that hard call,” Roy said.


    Article: http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/20...a_roy_092109w/

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    Re: EPR raters told to look at how they give scores

    Sorry, but the "re-vamp" of the ratings is not going to start with my troops.

    I'm not screwing them when it comes time to test simply to set some standard that most of the first line supervisors in the Air Force will never strive for.

    It needs to be "Go/No Go" like OPRs. Bottom line, that's the only thing that will fix the system.

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    Re: EPR raters told to look at how they give scores

    Quote Originally Posted by JTAC_Sean View Post
    Sorry, but the "re-vamp" of the ratings is not going to start with my troops.

    I'm not screwing them when it comes time to test simply to set some standard that most of the first line supervisors in the Air Force will never strive for.

    It needs to be "Go/No Go" like OPRs. Bottom line, that's the only thing that will fix the system.
    I'll provide my usual long rambling reply later... but my quick repsonse to that stance is, the only people you acre screwing is A) those who EARN the firewall 5, and B) the peers of your average performer who is going to get promoted when they shouldn't have, and his peers are going to be stuck carrying his/her dead weight. The average performer gets what they deserve... so if they don't cut it, how are you screwing them by documenting their performance level?
    "If a man is called to be a street sweeper, he should sweep the streets even as Michelangelo painted, or Beethoven composed music, or Shakespeare wrote poetry. He should sweep the street so well that all the hosts of heaven and earth will pause to say, here lived a great street sweeper who did his job well. "

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    Re: EPR raters told to look at how they give scores

    Few people bust their asses nowadays and truly deserve that 'firewall' 5 - myself included - everything is automated, everything has a fail-safe to where if Airman Snot screws up, it will be caught before any real damage or harm is done.

    The military is not built on efficiency so by default anyone who 'improves' it with a new concept is going against the bureaucratic system which it prides itself upon.

    I say keep the firewall 5 system going. It's the only way people can hope to get promoted and the Air Force continues to meet its manning requirements. We're 20 years too late trying to fix it now, unless we burn it down to the ground and start over from scratch.
    "Thats most of America....we work ourselves to death, literally - Michaep"

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    Re: EPR raters told to look at how they give scores

    another Crusty sound bite...

    When you promote your average troop to be your peer, and he is still average in his new grade, and you're the one stuck doing all the shit he's supposed to be doing, who's the one who got screwed then?
    "If a man is called to be a street sweeper, he should sweep the streets even as Michelangelo painted, or Beethoven composed music, or Shakespeare wrote poetry. He should sweep the street so well that all the hosts of heaven and earth will pause to say, here lived a great street sweeper who did his job well. "

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    Re: EPR raters told to look at how they give scores

    and the standard reply is;

    dont make it count for 5yrs and you might get more on board to rate accuratly.

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    Re: EPR raters told to look at how they give scores

    Quote Originally Posted by bb stacker View Post
    and the standard reply is;

    dont make it count for 5yrs and you might get more on board to rate accuratly.
    People make it all the time with markdowns in the last 5 years... they just have to work harder.

    Those doing the right things will rise to the top, those who are average can still make it if they study, and below average will get what they deserve.
    "If a man is called to be a street sweeper, he should sweep the streets even as Michelangelo painted, or Beethoven composed music, or Shakespeare wrote poetry. He should sweep the street so well that all the hosts of heaven and earth will pause to say, here lived a great street sweeper who did his job well. "

    Dr Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: EPR raters told to look at how they give scores

    Quote Originally Posted by CrustySMSgt View Post
    another Crusty sound bite...

    When you promote your average troop to be your peer, and he is still average in his new grade, and you're the one stuck doing all the shit he's supposed to be doing, who's the one who got screwed then?
    Most raters want to see their people promoted.

    this message from Chief Roy is good...but it's going to need a LOT of follow-up...some examples...and it must be repeated over and over and over until it starts to take hold...senior raters, commanders, shirts and chiefs need to start questioning the firewall 5, instead of questioning the markdowns...

    Senior raters...need to cease the 'must have firewall 5" policy in awarding decorations and award them based on the quality of the contribution...

    In mx...look at production, qa, etc....and have a policy just as strong for duty performance as there is for PT. (i.e. you don't get the highest mark if you've failed a QA eval). Leaders need to give out some more examples....

    Chief Roy took a good first step...but simply telling people to "make the tough call" isn't going to solve the problem...they don't see it as a tough call, they WANT their troop promoted! People need to make the "right" call...but we have a generation of first level supervisors..and even higher...that need a definition of what that is. Everyone thinks it starts and ends with PT...

    PT is part of the picture...but what about medical, dental, training readiness? How can you be among the best if you aren't even worldwide deployable? Sorry about your sleep apnea...but you shouldn't be getting firewall 5s if you aren't physically able to be deployed....you should be grateful to even have a job in the military. Why not use your SKT and PFE scores like PT scores are used? How can you be among the best if you score 38% on an exam about your job?...or an exam about NCO duties and responsibilities? Let's lay it all on the table...and make it part of the record.

  9. #9
    rickencibolo
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    Lightbulb Re: EPR raters told to look at how they give scores

    Just another Chief passing the buck...this problem will remain as long as performance evaluations ratings equate to promotion points.

    Officer promotion system has a better concept. Promotion Quotas (DP) granted to Senior Raters to identify who should be seriously considered for promotion.

    How about the same, but unit commanders determine by AFSC exactly who in their unit is recommended for promotion by determining just how many of the 135 points (from the EPR points) should be given. This way the top person (or top few) in an AFSC would get the max and then others awarded less than the max. This way the best are give the max and those who are not don't.

    But hey, that would mean more time, effort and money spent on enlisted matters; and well, in my 24 years, i witnessed that if it's not aircraft or officer related, the liklihood of improvement or change is small (unless invoked by law).

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    Senior Member bb stacker's Avatar
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    Re: EPR raters told to look at how they give scores

    Quote Originally Posted by CrustySMSgt View Post
    People make it all the time with markdowns in the last 5 years... they just have to work harder.

    Those doing the right things will rise to the top, those who are average can still make it if they study, and below average will get what they deserve.

    few comments here;

    you were promoted under this infaltion system, probably recieved a few 5's that were inflated. now from the top you want to change the rules to hose those beneath you?

    your well aware that eprs are used for more than just waps points. so by giving them a 4 you screw your troop out of awards, decs, special duties, etc...

    sorry, until the attitude of "anything below a 5 need not apply" the system isnt going to change.

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