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Thread: Homosexuality & Morality - Conflict of Terms!?

  1. #31
    Senior Member TJMAC77SP's Avatar
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    Re: Homosexuality & Morality - Conflict of Terms!?

    Quote Originally Posted by mel44 View Post
    Sure TJ - the AMA removed it a few years back. The debate is, they are to left wing and support politically correctness. I don't know that I completely disagree. We all have our own criteria for diagnosing and assessment tools. I used the substance abuse MMPI criteria. The Sassi works about the same way. The issue when diagnosing homosexual is it in itself is not necessarily the issue and can be classified under sexual dysfunction. Everything we do is based on theory. There is no test to scientifically test for mental health issues. It really is based on the theory you believe and the application of that theory.
    I understand the dilemma of personal and professional beliefs intertwining. I imagine it is a struggle to keep them separate.

    I have met and known many gay people (male and female) who are completely ‘normal’ in all aspects of their life. Their sexual attraction just happens to be towards the same sex. Leaving all other aspects out of the equation (such as pedophilia, which I believe to be a completely separate issue and unrelated to one basic sexuality) then I can’t see how it can be thought of as dysfunctional.

    During an ethics class in college I once called homosexuality deviant behavior. After the uproar died down I explained that my meaning was in looking at the definition of deviant. I looked upon it as behavior not accepted as social norm. This is time and place specific. For example in a different time and place such behavior is or was accepted as normal.

    I believe this to be a subjective opinion and I think that is where you are straying. If I am reading you right, you have a moral objection to homosexuality. This is perfectly acceptable, be it for religious or other reasons. The same can be said for one’s position on abortion or the death penalty. You are entitled to your opinion on moral issues.

    In any case, all my rambling aside, this has been (for the most part - As we all know Bush and the Republican Party is to blame for all that is bad in our society.) a good discussion.
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  2. #32
    CVal
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    Re: Homosexuality & Morality - Conflict of Terms!?

    Quote Originally Posted by mel44 View Post
    No CVAL I said I didn't know any in any long term relationships. i know many and have some in my family. Where is your dividing line for pedophilia? Is there a certain age of child that is not ranked as a child. i have a 17 year old. She is a baby no where near able to fight the advances of a experienced 45 year old adult, especially one she was learning from and being taught under.

    i like the mental health debates they are based more on evidence and theory than personal views. I have noticed in my career when people believe something but don't know why they believe it they tend to get into personal comments since they have no evidence to argue with. It's why i posted it - I want to learn and gain a broader understanding
    I'm sorry, I did misunderstand. I have a friend who has been in a homosexual relationship for over 25 years ~ a few years longer than I have been married. She was also a wonderful mentor to my daughter throughout her high school years. I credit my friend with helping to guide my daughter through these tumultuous years and to helping instill a good work ethic in her.

    I do continue to be disturbed by the post equating homosexuality and pedophilia. They are separate issues, just as heterosexuality and pedophilia are separate issues.

  3. #33
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    Re: Homosexuality & Morality - Conflict of Terms!?

    Quote Originally Posted by TJMAC77SP View Post
    I understand the dilemma of personal and professional beliefs intertwining. I imagine it is a struggle to keep them separate.

    I have met and known many gay people (male and female) who are completely ‘normal’ in all aspects of their life. Their sexual attraction just happens to be towards the same sex. Leaving all other aspects out of the equation (such as pedophilia, which I believe to be a completely separate issue and unrelated to one basic sexuality) then I can’t see how it can be thought of as dysfunctional.

    During an ethics class in college I once called homosexuality deviant behavior. After the uproar died down I explained that my meaning was in looking at the definition of deviant. I looked upon it as behavior not accepted as social norm. This is time and place specific. For example in a different time and place such behavior is or was accepted as normal.

    I believe this to be a subjective opinion and I think that is where you are straying. If I am reading you right, you have a moral objection to homosexuality. This is perfectly acceptable, be it for religious or other reasons. The same can be said for one’s position on abortion or the death penalty. You are entitled to your opinion on moral issues.

    In any case, all my rambling aside, this has been (for the most part - As we all know Bush and the Republican Party is to blame for all that is bad in our society.) a good discussion.
    Yes you have to, at some point, connect morals to the equation. But don't confuse morals with religious beliefs. Morals come from beliefs. Morals are the right and wrong of a person and/or society.

    Where behavior comes in we have to look at the driving force or the mood altering experience in this case. Taking drugs is not a lack of morals. Tylenol is a drug. Engaging in a mood altering experience combined with the legalities and the direct impact of the experience defines if it is moral or not moral for you. For instance certain people do not drink caffeine. I drink it by the gallons. For them it is wrong for me it is perfectly ok. What defines the dysfunction is the impact it makes on the individual. Is the act of homosexuality a deviant act? No not in itself. Can it lead to deviant acts? Yes I believe it can.

    Let e be clear. I do not believe homosexuals are evil or godless. I don't believe Homosexuality is an illness. I believe it is a symptom of an addiction that could result in greater damage and is in need of treatment.

    Remember though I have seen many, most are sick when they get to me. I have met few drinkers that don' problem drink on a regular basis yet the function very well in society.

    The issue I have with the openness of gays serving is the socially correctness that has pushed this issue so far left that we don't look at the realities of the deviants that also fit into this class of people.
    Texas Has The Death Penalty - We Use It!:biggrin

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    While Other States Are fighting To Keep The Death Penalty Out
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    Re: Homosexuality & Morality - Conflict of Terms!?

    Interesting article I guess now moral waivers are coming more into play in recruiting. I didnt know this.

    http://usmilitary.about.com/b/2008/0...ral-waiver.htm

    One in Eight Army Recruits Require Moral Waiver
    Monday April 7, 2008
    According to a story in the Army Times, one out of eight new Army recruits require a waiver to enlist, a rate which is more than double what it was during Fiscal Year 2004. In 2004, 4,6 percent required a moral waiver for criminal history or other past misconduct. During last fiscal year, the rate had jumped to 11 percent. So far, during Fiscal Year 2008, which began on Oct. 1, 13 percent of new recruits have required a moral waiver.

    According to the article, most waivers involve misdemeanors. The Army has granted 4,676 conduct waivers among the 36,047 recruited from October through late February.

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    Re: Homosexuality & Morality - Conflict of Terms!?

    Quote Originally Posted by CVal View Post
    I'm sorry, I did misunderstand. I have a friend who has been in a homosexual relationship for over 25 years ~ a few years longer than I have been married. She was also a wonderful mentor to my daughter throughout her high school years. I credit my friend with helping to guide my daughter through these tumultuous years and to helping instill a good work ethic in her.

    I do continue to be disturbed by the post equating homosexuality and pedophilia. They are separate issues, just as heterosexuality and pedophilia are separate issues.
    I understand the concern. Sex is sex and drugs are drugs. Both are mood altering and are driven by the experience. Not everyone that takes a mood altering drug is going to develop a dependency on them or move on to harder drugs.

    There are many very intelligent, loving, godly people that have serious gambling, spending, sexual or drug addictions. The addiction does not define the person, it is a dysfunction of the person. Now there are no generalization here so I am not saying ALL, I am saying that many predators go unnoticed because they are "nice people". It doesn't mean they don't struggle with sexual dysfunction. where do we put that defining line of what is moral and what is not. Or what is dysfunction and what is not.
    Texas Has The Death Penalty - We Use It!:biggrin

    Last Year They Introduced Legislation That Would Expedite The Appeals Process If There Were 3 or More Witnesses To The Crime

    While Other States Are fighting To Keep The Death Penalty Out
    Texas Is Putting In An EXPRESS LANE!!
    Ron White:rockon

  6. #36
    ringjamesa
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    Re: Homosexuality & Morality - Conflict of Terms!?

    Not only did the allegedly left leaning AMA remove homosexuality from their list of personality disorders, the allegedly right leaning DoD did the same thing allbeit quite a while after the AMA. So...wouldn't that lend some credence to the statement that homosexuality is not a personality disorder?

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    Member mel44's Avatar
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    Re: Homosexuality & Morality - Conflict of Terms!?

    Quote Originally Posted by ringjamesa View Post
    Not only did the allegedly left leaning AMA remove homosexuality from their list of personality disorders, the allegedly right leaning DoD did the same thing allbeit quite a while after the AMA. So...wouldn't that lend some credence to the statement that homosexuality is not a personality disorder?
    Yes I agree. Completely ignoring a professional society is ignorance in itself. Merit should be given to the opinion. I don't believe it is really a personality disorder. I tend to stay a little more surface level and sty within the parameters of behavior disorder. There are several other circumstances to look at such as body chemistry. Is there hormonal issues or genetic disorders? these factors always have to be looked at.
    Texas Has The Death Penalty - We Use It!:biggrin

    Last Year They Introduced Legislation That Would Expedite The Appeals Process If There Were 3 or More Witnesses To The Crime

    While Other States Are fighting To Keep The Death Penalty Out
    Texas Is Putting In An EXPRESS LANE!!
    Ron White:rockon

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    Senior Member TJMAC77SP's Avatar
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    Re: Homosexuality & Morality - Conflict of Terms!?

    Quote Originally Posted by mel44 View Post
    Yes you have to, at some point, connect morals to the equation. But don't confuse morals with religious beliefs. Morals come from beliefs. Morals are the right and wrong of a person and/or society.

    Where behavior comes in we have to look at the driving force or the mood altering experience in this case. Taking drugs is not a lack of morals. Tylenol is a drug. Engaging in a mood altering experience combined with the legalities and the direct impact of the experience defines if it is moral or not moral for you. For instance certain people do not drink caffeine. I drink it by the gallons. For them it is wrong for me it is perfectly ok. What defines the dysfunction is the impact it makes on the individual. Is the act of homosexuality a deviant act? No not in itself. Can it lead to deviant acts? Yes I believe it can.

    Let e be clear. I do not believe homosexuals are evil or godless. I don't believe Homosexuality is an illness. I believe it is a symptom of an addiction that could result in greater damage and is in need of treatment.

    Remember though I have seen many, most are sick when they get to me. I have met few drinkers that don' problem drink on a regular basis yet the function very well in society.

    The issue I have with the openness of gays serving is the socially correctness that has pushed this issue so far left that we don't look at the realities of the deviants that also fit into this class of people.
    I don't want to beat this to death but a couple of points need clarification.

    I cited religious beliefs as one of many sources of one’s moral beliefs.

    Secondly, isn’t addiction considered an illness? If so, then if homosexuals do indeed suffer from an addiction aren’t they indeed ill? (your words, not mine)
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    Member mel44's Avatar
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    Re: Homosexuality & Morality - Conflict of Terms!?

    Quote Originally Posted by TJMAC77SP View Post
    I don't want to beat this to death but a couple of points need clarification.

    I cited religious beliefs as one of many sources of one’s moral beliefs.

    Secondly, isn’t addiction considered an illness? If so, then if homosexuals do indeed suffer from an addiction aren’t they indeed ill? (your words, not mine)
    Yes religious beliefs can be a source of information to base morals on. The point I was making is a persons moral beliefs that homosexual behavior is wrong does not have to be religion as the source of those beliefs.
    Example:
    Some may believe drunk driving is immoral. This is based on their value in human life and the DUI death rate, not on their religious beliefs that drinking is wrong.

    NO addiction is not an illness. this can be somewhat confusing when the lay community hears AA describe alcoholism as a disease.
    Clarification - Alcoholism is not a diagnosis
    - Addiction to alcohol is not a disease nor is there a gene that has been identified to cause said
    addiction.

    Its a behavior that can develop into a physical or psychological addiction. A behavior or act that is motivated by mood altering experience is considered an desired act not an illness. you will hear people say the addict is ill. they very well may be from the effects of the addiction but they are not ill with the addiction itself but the effects of addiction. Once the source of the addiction is removed they return to pre-addicted state.
    Texas Has The Death Penalty - We Use It!:biggrin

    Last Year They Introduced Legislation That Would Expedite The Appeals Process If There Were 3 or More Witnesses To The Crime

    While Other States Are fighting To Keep The Death Penalty Out
    Texas Is Putting In An EXPRESS LANE!!
    Ron White:rockon

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    Senior Member TJMAC77SP's Avatar
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    Re: Homosexuality & Morality - Conflict of Terms!?

    Quote Originally Posted by mel44 View Post
    Yes religious beliefs can be a source of information to base morals on. The point I was making is a persons moral beliefs that homosexual behavior is wrong does not have to be religion as the source of those beliefs.
    Example:
    Some may believe drunk driving is immoral. This is based on their value in human life and the DUI death rate, not on their religious beliefs that drinking is wrong.

    NO addiction is not an illness. this can be somewhat confusing when the lay community hears AA describe alcoholism as a disease.
    Clarification - Alcoholism is not a diagnosis
    - Addiction to alcohol is not a disease nor is there a gene that has been identified to cause said
    addiction.

    Its a behavior that can develop into a physical or psychological addiction. A behavior or act that is motivated by mood altering experience is considered an desired act not an illness. you will hear people say the addict is ill. they very well may be from the effects of the addiction but they are not ill with the addiction itself but the effects of addiction. Once the source of the addiction is removed they return to pre-addicted state.
    WARNING: More dead horse beating ahead.

    I got your point regarding the source of morals. You ignored my reference to other basis for morals (i.e. “be it for religious or other reasons “)and I was merely trying to point that out. No further examples are necessary.

    It is not merely AA that calls alcoholism a disease. You can get disability for this and that requires a medical opinion.

    Again, not really necessary to clarify anymore. I merely see things in your posts that seem to contradict one another and merely throwing out the ‘to the lay person’ mantra doesn’t clear anything up.
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