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    PT in the Army

    Other services are revamping the requirements and expectations, but what about the Army? Are changes needed? If so, what would you recommend?

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    Re: PT in the Army

    While the current APFT is not in itself entirely flawed, in my honest opinion it is a little outdated and doesn't focus on the current missions that are seen on a day to day basis. As a veteran of OIF, no where did we run 2 miles. No where did we do pushups. No where did we do situps. As these are all great baselines in order to detemine a Soldier's fitness, I think a few things should be added, while keeping the old events the same or revamping them a little.

    For instance, a 100m sprint event should be introduced. Many of the firefights/actions in today's battlefields involving urban operations require Soldiers under fire to sprint from cover to cover, covering shorter distances at faster speeds.

    Introduce the pull-up. I don't know how many times while conducting raids, we were required to scale walls and other obstacles where pushups did absolutely nothing for those particular muscle groups.

    I don't think that we should introduce something as ridiculous as the Marine CFT (I have a brother in the Marines and I work with them and they are of the same mind set), as it is absolutely unnecessary in its entire structure. I do, however, think that we should add to the current APFT.

    Lastly, I think that the male/female standards should be drawn closer together. I say this upon the simple basis that both male and female soldiers are required to accomplish the same missions, so therefore, why not have one set standard, or one very close to it, accurately reflecting the requirements of our Soldiers, not based upon gender. Bullets don't discriminate, why should we?

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    Re: PT in the Army

    Quote Originally Posted by jay_ellis04 View Post
    While the current APFT is not in itself entirely flawed, in my honest opinion it is a little outdated and doesn't focus on the current missions that are seen on a day to day basis. As a veteran of OIF, no where did we run 2 miles. No where did we do pushups. No where did we do situps. As these are all great baselines in order to detemine a Soldier's fitness, I think a few things should be added, while keeping the old events the same or revamping them a little./QUOTE]
    Well the PT test is more about endurance, but I agree on the running part. I havea P-2 for my knees, soI have to walk 2.5 miles. I would, and I thnk I could, rather do the sprints myself. Keep the sit-up, just change HOW it is preformed. Use the Navy version of Arms across the chest instead of behind the head. Many neck injuries may have started due to this (I know for sure it happened to me, hence the titanium rod in my neck). as for thepush, well Ijust don't know either way on that one.

    QUOTE=jay_ellis04;97701]Introduce the pull-up. I don't know how many times while conducting raids, we were required to scale walls and other obstacles where pushups did absolutely nothing for those particular muscle groups./QUOTE] Navy used to do that, but didn't score it. It was more like a "we need to see if you can" item.

    QUOTE=jay_ellis04;97701]Lastly, I think that the male/female standards should be drawn closer together. I say this upon the simple basis that both male and female soldiers are required to accomplish the same missions, so therefore, why not have one set standard, or one very close to it, accurately reflecting the requirements of our Soldiers, not based upon gender. Bullets don't discriminate, why should we?
    ok so Bullets are EO compliant... but the standards should be based on height weight, not sex. somebody that is 6'11' had better be able to run faster than the person that is 5'7.25" tall. And the 188 lb soldier should be able to lift more than the 102 lb one.

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    Re: PT in the Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt Grandpa View Post
    ok so Bullets are EO compliant... but the standards should be based on height weight, not sex. somebody that is 6'11' had better be able to run faster than the person that is 5'7.25" tall. And the 188 lb soldier should be able to lift more than the 102 lb one.
    Excellent thought. I like it! Makes a whole lot of sense. However, (and this would cause more study by the defunct Physical Fitness School), it may not hurt to put body composition into that factor as well, meaning that a 6'6" guy weighing in at 190 and a 6'6" guy weighing in at 245 shouldn't be expected to run the same speed. I'm not talking about fat soldiers either.

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    Re: PT in the Army

    Quote Originally Posted by jay_ellis04 View Post

    Lastly, I think that the male/female standards should be drawn closer together. I say this upon the simple basis that both male and female soldiers are required to accomplish the same missions, so therefore, why not have one set standard, or one very close to it, accurately reflecting the requirements of our Soldiers, not based upon gender. Bullets don't discriminate, why should we?
    Because they are NOT job performance standards...they are fitness standards.

    An equally fit man and equally fit women perform differently. The standards and not designed nor intended to measure your ability to do your job...there are other standards for that, depending on your job.

    Fitness standards are designed to measure you health fitness...and those things are different for women than they are for men.

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    Re: PT in the Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Measure Man View Post
    Because they are NOT job performance standards...they are fitness standards.

    An equally fit man and equally fit women perform differently. The standards and not designed nor intended to measure your ability to do your job...there are other standards for that, depending on your job.

    Fitness standards are designed to measure you health fitness...and those things are different for women than they are for men.

    That's crap and I've heard that same excuse for 13 years. I have seen female Soldiers PT circles around their male peers in ALL categories. On more than one occasion I have seen older female Soldiers in the 32-36 age scale score 300 on their PT test...in the 17-21 Male category. I've heard it time and time again. I'm sick of hearing that old rhyme.

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    Re: PT in the Army

    Quote Originally Posted by jay_ellis04 View Post
    That's crap and I've heard that same excuse for 13 years. I have seen female Soldiers PT circles around their male peers in ALL categories. On more than one occasion I have seen older female Soldiers in the 32-36 age scale score 300 on their PT test...in the 17-21 Male category. I've heard it time and time again. I'm sick of hearing that old rhyme.
    The exception does not prove anything...

    So, you've heard it for 13 years and still don't get it...

    Note I said...males and females of EQUAL fitness can do different things. Sure, females of superior fitness can exceed male minimum standards...that proves nothing. You feel like ALL females should match what the top females can do because some can do it... Might as well have ALL males match what the top males can do. I mean I know men that can swim 2 miles, bike 100 miles, then run 26.2 miles...so maybe all males should have to do that.

    Maybe you would prefer having the same fitness standard for flexibility...and see how many of the females can put their forehead on their knees...and dock points from the males who can't do the same thing....I mean heck...flexibility is at least as an important aspect of overall fitness...

    Men and women are different!

    Job Performance standards should be and are the same...if you need to perform to a certain level to be in a certain job...those things are the same....fitness standards are not and should not be the same.

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    Re: PT in the Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Measure Man View Post
    The exception does not prove anything...

    So, you've heard it for 13 years and still don't get it...

    Note I said...males and females of EQUAL fitness can do different things. Sure, females of superior fitness can exceed male minimum standards...that proves nothing. You feel like ALL females should match what the top females can do because some can do it... Might as well have ALL males match what the top males can do. I mean I know men that can swim 2 miles, bike 100 miles, then run 26.2 miles...so maybe all males should have to do that.

    Maybe you would prefer having the same fitness standard for flexibility...and see how many of the females can put their forehead on their knees...and dock points from the males who can't do the same thing....I mean heck...flexibility is at least as an important aspect of overall fitness...

    Men and women are different!

    Job Performance standards should be and are the same...if you need to perform to a certain level to be in a certain job...those things are the same....fitness standards are not and should not be the same.


    You keep coming with the "job performance" thing. In that respect, and I am being objective here, a PAC clerk, regardless of sex, should not be required to achieve the same standards as say, an Infantryman, or and Infantryman the same as a Ranger...etc. etc. etc. I used those examples as that, examples. My reasoning behind this (and I know that "body composition" is a huge factor between males and females), is that if they can't cut the mustard, get out. Quit pandering to the baseless nonsense and treat EVERYONE as Soldiers, not MALE and FEMALE Soldiers. We have uniform standards, weapons qualification standards, and so forth. Standards are standards and should be the same, or EXTREMELY close, straight across the board. You pander to one group of individuals, it's nothing more than reverse discrimination.

    That being said, this particular discussion is pointless because of the Politically Correct pinheads that try to make everyone happy, while screwing the ones over that actually give a shit. Our Army is degrading, and degrading swiftly. I saw a photograph yesterday that really put me off to our current "standards" of fitness. The photograph was of a male Soldier (rank unknown), in PT gear in a Dining Facility, apparently in theatre as the individual who snapped the photograph was a Marine. This particular Soldier was SO overweight, (bear with me here, I'm not trying to piss anyone off), that his "man-boobs" were literally swallowing the sling of his rifle. His gut and sides were falling over his shorts so badly, that he could hardly keep his shirt tucked in. I am NOT in any wise picking on females in this particular thread at all. We have standards for a reason, and THIS is why we need ONE SET STANDARD! If you are going to allow some random fat ass in the Army, deployed, to a combat zone, then screw it, do away with PT altogether.

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    Re: PT in the Army

    Quote Originally Posted by jay_ellis04 View Post
    That's crap and I've heard that same excuse for 13 years. I have seen female Soldiers PT circles around their male peers in ALL categories. On more than one occasion I have seen older female Soldiers in the 32-36 age scale score 300 on their PT test...in the 17-21 Male category. I've heard it time and time again. I'm sick of hearing that old rhyme.
    Yeah but not ALL of us women are PT studs just like not ALL men are PT studs. I know women who max the male standards and then some. That doesn't mean all of us can. I used to be decent at PT - then I started to get back and shoulder issues (when I was only 24 and 26) and so now I feel like I'm in the body of a 50 year old sometimes but it's not to the point where I am on a permanent profile either (not yet and hopefully never). Everyone is not the same and I agree with the post from Measure Man.

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    Re: PT in the Army

    Quote Originally Posted by jay_ellis04 View Post
    While the current APFT is not in itself entirely flawed, in my honest opinion it is a little outdated and doesn't focus on the current missions that are seen on a day to day basis. As a veteran of OIF, no where did we run 2 miles. No where did we do pushups. No where did we do situps. As these are all great baselines in order to detemine a Soldier's fitness, I think a few things should be added, while keeping the old events the same or revamping them a little.

    For instance, a 100m sprint event should be introduced. Many of the firefights/actions in today's battlefields involving urban operations require Soldiers under fire to sprint from cover to cover, covering shorter distances at faster speeds.

    Introduce the pull-up. I don't know how many times while conducting raids, we were required to scale walls and other obstacles where pushups did absolutely nothing for those particular muscle groups.

    I don't think that we should introduce something as ridiculous as the Marine CFT (I have a brother in the Marines and I work with them and they are of the same mind set), as it is absolutely unnecessary in its entire structure. I do, however, think that we should add to the current APFT.

    Lastly, I think that the male/female standards should be drawn closer together. I say this upon the simple basis that both male and female soldiers are required to accomplish the same missions, so therefore, why not have one set standard, or one very close to it, accurately reflecting the requirements of our Soldiers, not based upon gender. Bullets don't discriminate, why should we?
    I do agree that the female pushup minimum should be increased (I'm a female soldier) but the reason why we are so different is that fact - men and women ON AVERAGE are built differently. There is no way for us to be 100% equal because we aren't built the same. However that is not to say there aren't women who can max the male standards and males who can barely pass the male standards or some who can't even pass the female run standard. Situps are exactly the same between the two just pushups and run are different but again the minimum is just that - the least you have to do. No one says that you have to ONLY do the 60/60/60. That's just a standard - if you can excel above that then you do. But everyone is built different.

    But we do need to change something because I'm only 28 and sometimes I feel like I'm in a 50 year old's body. I never had back and shoulder problems until about four years ago. Then I didn't get checked out right away because I'm stubborn and the whole idea that if you get a profile you're "shamming" doesn't help matters. But just because you're taller doesn't mean you run faster. Some people are naturally good runners or naturally athletic while others have to work at it. Before I had my back issues, I ran a decent run for a female (16-17 min 2mile) and now since my back and profiles and recovery I'm trying to get back to at least an 18-19. Age doesn't help some people.

    Everyone is different but I agree that the way our PT test is set up doesn't help anyone.

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