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Thread: Two-star fired from running top secret program office; under multiple IG investigatio

  1. #11
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogDog View Post
    What I was thinking was a long the lines that since Ford was a two-star general the firing of someone with that rank should have been made by a higher ranking military member rather than a civilian.
    Most work in the Pentagon isn't 'war fighting' but acquisitions, program management, requirements and resourcing ($$$) (man, train, equip) etc. Most of the heads for that are senior civilians (either DoD SESs or folks like Asst Secretaries, Under Secretaries etc.)
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainmaker View Post
    Rainmaker's heard many GS-15s refer to themselves as a "Colonel equivalent", over the years..... But, in all his days, never heard a single O-6 refer to himself as a "GS-15 equivalent"....
    From my experience, GS-15s were Division Chiefs, which is where O-6s were assigned. I've worked for GS15s, and the only reason some have described themselves as "Colonel equivalent" was simply to educate us military folk who've never worked with or understood the civilian GS scale on where GS-15s fit in with regard to level of responsibility. The same goes with SESs, who work at the General Officer level. Although with the SES, we never delineated between the Brig Gen, Maj Gen, Lt Gen, etc level. They were simply an SES.

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    Senior Member KellyinAvon's Avatar
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    From what I read in the OP, this individual needs to be unemployed. This was nothing new. You don't get to that position and rank and suddenly become a complete psycho. She'd been this way a long time.

    Too bad McPeak, Foglenuts, Ashey (to name just three) were promoted past the rank of Major. I remember hearing a lot about toxic leadership late in my days on active duty. It's good to see action finally taking place.
    This calls for a delicate blend of psychology and extreme violence. Vyvyan, The Young Ones

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    Senior Member Bos Mutus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KellyinAvon View Post
    From what I read in the OP, this individual needs to be unemployed. This was nothing new. You don't get to that position and rank and suddenly become a complete psycho. She'd been this way a long time.

    Too bad McPeak, Foglenuts, Ashey (to name just three) were promoted past the rank of Major. I remember hearing a lot about toxic leadership late in my days on active duty. It's good to see action finally taking place.
    Back in the old days, among certain breeding lines of officer, being an unreasonable tyrant was seen as a sign of merit...."being the real leader who set high standards and was willing to make the hard choices to hold people accountable (i.e. dispose of people whenever something went wrong). Fogleman, marched in to this drum beat of 'accountability, accountability, accountability' and marched out in protest when it came down upon his buddy. At least that's how I remember it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    Back in the old days, among certain breeding lines of officer, being an unreasonable tyrant was seen as a sign of merit...."being the real leader who set high standards and was willing to make the hard choices to hold people accountable (i.e. dispose of people whenever something went wrong). Fogleman, marched in to this drum beat of 'accountability, accountability, accountability' and marched out in protest when it came down upon his buddy. At least that's how I remember it.
    From what I remember, Fogleman was very well respected. Foglesong, on the other hand, brought misery to every assignment.

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    Senior Member KellyinAvon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    Back in the old days, among certain breeding lines of officer, being an unreasonable tyrant was seen as a sign of merit...."being the real leader who set high standards and was willing to make the hard choices to hold people accountable (i.e. dispose of people whenever something went wrong). Fogleman, marched in to this drum beat of 'accountability, accountability, accountability' and marched out in protest when it came down upon his buddy. At least that's how I remember it.

    General Fogleman was outstanding as a MAJCOM/CC and CSAF. He followed McPeak, but would've been outstanding following anyone. Doc Foglesong on the other hand was a narcissistic, self-serving bag of dog excrement. The E-9 who recommended him for the Order of the Sword should be curb-stomped. As a made-man in the Blue-ID Mafia and a retired SNCO, I am in favor of repossessing the Sword from Doc Foglenuts, McPeak, and Ashy.

    I should have added Doc to Foglenuts to clear up any confusion.
    This calls for a delicate blend of psychology and extreme violence. Vyvyan, The Young Ones

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    Quote Originally Posted by KellyinAvon View Post
    General Fogleman was outstanding as a MAJCOM/CC and CSAF. He followed McPeak, but would've been outstanding following anyone. Doc Foglesong on the other hand was a narcissistic, self-serving bag of dog excrement. The E-9 who recommended him for the Order of the Sword should be curb-stomped. As a made-man in the Blue-ID Mafia and a retired SNCO, I am in favor of repossessing the Sword from Doc Foglenuts, McPeak, and Ashy.

    I should have added Doc to Foglenuts to clear up any confusion.

    The Order of the Sword became a joke when those worthless Generals were awarded it. They might as well have renamed it the General Officer Retirement Sword.

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    Senior Member KellyinAvon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLAPS View Post
    The Order of the Sword became a joke when those worthless Generals were awarded it. They might as well have renamed it the General Officer Retirement Sword.
    I can't think of anything better to say than, "This is why we can't have nice things."
    This calls for a delicate blend of psychology and extreme violence. Vyvyan, The Young Ones

  9. #19
    Senior Member Bos Mutus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KellyinAvon View Post
    General Fogleman was outstanding as a MAJCOM/CC and CSAF. He followed McPeak, but would've been outstanding following anyone. Doc Foglesong on the other hand was a narcissistic, self-serving bag of dog excrement. The E-9 who recommended him for the Order of the Sword should be curb-stomped. As a made-man in the Blue-ID Mafia and a retired SNCO, I am in favor of repossessing the Sword from Doc Foglenuts, McPeak, and Ashy.

    I should have added Doc to Foglenuts to clear up any confusion.
    I remember that Fogleman was pretty well liked and respected...I think he kind of held out wearing the old blues instead of the new McPeak ones and stuff like that.

    I remember the mantra of 'accountability' when he became CSAF. Which is not a bad thing of course, but as I recall, it resulted in basically disposing of mostly enlisted careers every time something went wrong...I remember the case of the F16 mechanics that reversed some part on the wing flaps or something...that was a known issue that big AF failed to deal with effectively...basically both mechanics were being court-martialed for it and one ended up taking his own life.

    Later, when Gen. Schwalier was held accountable for failing to take reasonable precautions to prevent the bombing attack (was that Khobar Tower?)...Gen Fogleman stepped down out of protest.
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    Senior Member LogDog's Avatar
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    I remember Fogleman from when he was Commander 7th AF at Osan. I never had any face-to-face interactions with him but I remember just about everyone there liked and respected him.

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