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SeaLawyer
04-24-2019, 11:07 AM
https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2019/04/24/what-you-dont-know-about-the-navys-plans-for-a-community-college/

Once again, the Navy decides to follow in the Air Force's footsteps years after proven success.

The Community College of the Air Force has been a launching pad for these Airmen and Sailors have been trying to push a Navy version for years.

Why are we just now getting onboard (pun intended)?.?.

FLAPS
04-24-2019, 01:51 PM
https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2019/04/24/what-you-dont-know-about-the-navys-plans-for-a-community-college/

Once again, the Navy decides to follow in the Air Force's footsteps years after proven success.

The Community College of the Air Force has been a launching pad for these Airmen and Sailors have been trying to push a Navy version for years.

Why are we just now getting onboard (pun intended)?.?.

Actually, the AF just rescinded it's policy of requiring the CCAF degree for promotion to E-8 and higher. That's a good thing. Personally, I think the CCAF is a fricken joke. I got my "degree" in 1995 before I left active duty for the first time, then learned that my four year college would only give me credit for one history class and basic training (counted for phys ed). Also, it was embarrassing trying to explain to people how the CCAF isn't really a college, doesn't really have a campus, doesn't have any professors, and doesn't offer its own classes. They should just close it down and leave the college business to, you know, real colleges.

SeaLawyer
04-24-2019, 03:41 PM
Interesting!!!

I still think it's a step ahead of the Navy with regards to acknowledging college credit.

FLAPS
04-24-2019, 04:09 PM
Interesting!!!

I still think it's a step ahead of the Navy with regards to acknowledging college credit.

Yes, and you can use DANTES, CLEP, Professional training, etc to earn credits towards the CCAF Associates Degree, but if you go this route you will find that most 4-year schools will not accept these types of credits, leaving the student to start from the beginning. That is why I've always told people to know the difference between a "Associates Degree" and TWO YEARS of school. There can be a huge difference, and those who want to continue on to get a Bachelors Degree need to understand that before it's too late and they find themselves further behind on that four year degree than they originally expected. My advice is to focus on taking general education requirements, etc that will not only will help earn the associates, but will also transfer over to most four year schools, and if working towards this you can also qualify for the AF or Navy 'cracker jack' associates, then great.

LogDog
04-24-2019, 05:51 PM
Actually, the AF just rescinded it's policy of requiring the CCAF degree for promotion to E-8 and higher. That's a good thing. Personally, I think the CCAF is a fricken joke. I got my "degree" in 1995 before I left active duty for the first time, then learned that my four year college would only give me credit for one history class and basic training (counted for phys ed). Also, it was embarrassing trying to explain to people how the CCAF isn't really a college, doesn't really have a campus, doesn't have any professors, and doesn't offer its own classes. They should just close it down and leave the college business to, you know, real colleges.
Perhaps the point of CCAF is to encourage people into getting a college education. A better educated military force enables the military to implement technological changes faster and it encourages its members to introduce new ideas to the workplace.

As for the value of the CCAF, that's debatable. I know I was able to apply most of my college credits to the CCAF and the courses I took while in the AF were transferable to a four-year college. Transferring credits earned through CCAF depends upon what the traditional college will accept. There are some colleges that offer legitimate degrees through an external degree program where you can take correspondence courses, test subjects for credit (DANTES/CLEP), use your military/life experience to apply as credits toward the degree. I know that back in the 80s and 90s, the AF accepted the New York Regents External Degree Program degree for commissioning in the AF.

The CCAF is more like a certification program in a career field rather than a degree but I wouldn't disparage the CCAF because it still required the person to apply them-self to earn it. A CCAF degree or a certification in your field is better than just saying you've been working in field for X number of years. And let's be honest, most employers don't know the difference between a CCAF and a community college degree just as they don't know how much more valuable a degree from one college is over that from another college. The degree shows you've had the discipline to get an education and the value of the degree you earned is that it now opens doors that were otherwise closed to you. It doesn't say you can do the job you're applying for but it says you have the education necessary for that job.

Mjölnir
04-24-2019, 06:50 PM
FWIW, the military has done better about tying training to correlating college worthy credit via ACE coding which makes it easier to walk a military training course to an applicable college class.

Colleges / universities reject course material from all kinds of sources. My 'path' to a Bachelor's Degree included 7 different colleges and had George Mason not accepting some work from Gonzaga. Not accepting credits isn't necessarily because it was CCAF etc. but it may be tied to the eventual degree, or a limit on transferable credits.

FLAPS
04-24-2019, 11:18 PM
The CCAF is more like a certification program in a career field rather than a degree. And let's be honest, most employers don't know the difference between a CCAF and a community college degree just as they don't know how much more valuable a degree from one college is over that from another college. The degree shows you've had the discipline to get an education

1. CCAF is not a certification program for a career field, CDCs (career development course) and OJT combined make up 100% of the certification program.

2. You're right, most employers don't know the difference between CCAF and another community college....until they ask. During my first post-USAF job interview the HR lady looked at my resume and asked, "It states here that you got your associates degree from the CCAF, which is at Maxwell AFB, AL, but your job history doesn't show where you were in AL to get this degree." Umm...well....um...it's not really a college, but they call themselves a college where you show them classes from real colleges and test results from CLEP, etc, and they combine them to give you a degree. HR lady, "So, Maxwell isn't a campus and you never took classes with this CCAF?" Yeah....something like that. Mind you, this was 1996, before you could take online classes.

3. A CCAF doesn't show that you have any discipline to get an education. As a matter of fact, you can CLEP and DANTES all of your requirements, and combined with tech training and BMT you have met all requirements. I guessed my way through the CLEP and DANTES, but actually took ONE History correspondence class on VHS. That's it....not much discipline involved!

KellyinAvon
04-24-2019, 11:38 PM
Wow, I've been gone 6 years and it's like I never left. FLAPS is still hatin on the CCAF. Just remember, if there ain't somebody with elbow patches on their sport jacket making bank on the textbook scam (change happy to glad and it's version 8)or pony-tailed Philosophy Professors shacked-up with a student? It ain't a real college.

Rusty Jones
04-27-2019, 06:35 PM
https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2019/04/24/what-you-dont-know-about-the-navys-plans-for-a-community-college/

Once again, the Navy decides to follow in the Air Force's footsteps years after proven success.

The Community College of the Air Force has been a launching pad for these Airmen and Sailors have been trying to push a Navy version for years.

Why are we just now getting onboard (pun intended)?.?.

This is stupid. First off, in 2019, the bachelor's degree is the new high school diploma. What does that mean for the associate's degree? That it's worthless.

Especially the CCAF. I didn't have to do a damn thing to get it. I was able to get my CCAF in just over a year, because I met all the requirements. The wait was for the 5-level.

This is also a waste of money and resources. If I recall correctly, the Air Force opened up the CCAF to all service nearly a decade ago. Why not simply encourage Sailors to use that instead? If the Navy needs to "chip in" some cash, so that not all of the cost falls on the Air Force, it's still more cost effective than starting a whole new school that isn't even necessary.

Mjölnir
04-27-2019, 10:05 PM
Especially the CCAF. I didn't have to do a damn thing to get it. I was able to get my CCAF in just over a year, because I met all the requirements. The wait was for the 5-level.

Did your USN training transfer or did you have to start it from scratch?

Rusty Jones
04-27-2019, 10:49 PM
Did your USN training transfer or did you have to start it from scratch?

Ah... now that reminds me. I DID have to lift a few fingers. That is, in the form of sending all of my transcripts over to CCAF. Including my SMART transcript.

Mjölnir
04-29-2019, 02:10 PM
Ah... now that reminds me. I DID have to lift a few fingers. That is, in the form of sending all of my transcripts over to CCAF. Including my SMART transcript.

Did you get 'credit' for everything or only certain things?

Legitimately curious.

SeaLawyer
04-29-2019, 05:01 PM
This is stupid. First off, in 2019, the bachelor's degree is the new high school diploma. What does that mean for the associate's degree? That it's worthless.

Especially the CCAF. I didn't have to do a damn thing to get it. I was able to get my CCAF in just over a year, because I met all the requirements. The wait was for the 5-level.

This is also a waste of money and resources. If I recall correctly, the Air Force opened up the CCAF to all service nearly a decade ago. Why not simply encourage Sailors to use that instead? If the Navy needs to "chip in" some cash, so that not all of the cost falls on the Air Force, it's still more cost effective than starting a whole new school that isn't even necessary.

How's this a waste of money? It's accredited! The waste of money comes from the colleges that make you pay/take Micky Mouse electives to get your degree. Really, most associates only require 30 credits in a specialized field, the other 30 are electives. If one has 30 credits in a specialized field, why are we making them take extra classes to obtain their degree from a college when the AF is accredited and already recognizes their credit?

Few colleges will grant you full credit for ALL of your military schools. Colleges will find you have a requirement no matter how many military credits you have. They're in it for the money!

Pretty smart an beneficial if you ask me.

Rusty Jones
04-29-2019, 07:15 PM
Did you get 'credit' for everything or only certain things?

Legitimately curious.

Everything. CCAF recognizes everything that you have ACE credits for.

Rusty Jones
04-29-2019, 07:19 PM
How's this a waste of money? It's accredited! The waste of money comes from the colleges that make you pay/take Micky Mouse electives to get your degree. Really, most associates only require 30 credits in a specialized field, the other 30 are electives. If one has 30 credits in a specialized field, why are we making them take extra classes to obtain their degree from a college when the AF is accredited and already recognizes their credit?

Few colleges will grant you full credit for ALL of your military schools. Colleges will find you have a requirement no matter how many military credits you have. They're in it for the money!

Pretty smart an beneficial if you ask me.

I didn't say the CCAF was a waste of money. I said that it would be a waste of money for the Navy open up their own, when CCAF is open to all services.

If the Navy wants to open up a new accredited institution of higher learning for enlisted, then they need to consider a four year university instead. You know, creating something that isn't already there.

In reality, I think the Air Force is already one-written policy away from doing this themselves, if they wanted to - i.e., by turning AFIT into this.

FLAPS
04-29-2019, 08:37 PM
How's this a waste of money? It's accredited!

CCAF is probably the only college on this Earth that doesn't actually provide you with, or could potentially provide you with an education. No college campus. No courses. No professors. The Air Force already provides tuition assistance to attend college classes from actual colleges, and the VA provides the Post 9/11 GI Bill, which of course is absolutely awesome. If the AF wants to cut costs, eliminating CCAF is a no-brainer.

LogDog
04-29-2019, 09:32 PM
CCAF is probably the only cllege on this Earth that doesn't actually provide you with, or could potentially provide you with an education. No college campus. No courses. No professors. The Air Force already provides tuition assistance to attend college classes from actual colleges, and the VA provides the Post 9/11 GI Bill, which of course is absolutely awesome. If the AF wants to cut costs, eliminating CCAF is a no-brainer.
True, but what the CCAF does is provide you college credit for what you learned in tech and PME courses so you won't have to take those courses at college. It's a 2-year degree but it satisfies a lot of the lower college requirements necessary for a 4-year degree. As I posted earlier, CCAF also encourages people to continue going to college because once they see they are progressing to or earned that CCAF degree they'll continue their education in their field or some other field.

As for not having a campus, courses, or professors, to a degree that's correct. The campus is at Maxwell AFB, Gunter Annex and consist of offices administering the program. The courses and "professors" are the instructors at tech school and PME courses. Just because this isn't a traditional college, where you go to classes, doesn't mean the degree is invalid. I attended the NCO Academy in Germany in the mid-80s and during orientation they told us of one of their instructors, who recently PCS'ed, completed his 4-year degree and never sat in a college classroom. He used his CCAF as the basis and took CLEP, Dantes, and another college level national testing organization tests to earn college credits. He applied all of these to the New York Reagents External Degree Program (which is/was at that time recognized by the AF for commissioning) and received his degree. He had to pay some money to enroll and maintain his records until graduation but he got his degree and when he left the service he went to work at a university counseling students.

Look at it this way, the CCAF is a stepping stone for AF members to begin and continue their college education. Those who earned a traditional, 4-year degree may look down upon the CCAF as being worthless but isn't that the same snobbery as someone graduating from say Harvard looking down upon someone who graduated from a state university? CCAF is a community college degree awarded to those who earned enough college credits and it's no more or less valuable than a community college degree earned somewhere else.

SeaLawyer
04-30-2019, 11:03 AM
I see your point Rusty!

I still think the CCAF was ingenious and had I known it was open to all branches--way back--when I got my associates, I would have opted for CCAF.

FLAPS
04-30-2019, 11:31 AM
Those who earned a traditional, 4-year degree may look down upon the CCAF as being worthless but isn't that the same snobbery

So, now I'm a snob? I got my CCAF in 1995, then found out how worthless it was on the outside because ALL credits except for one actual class used to 'earn' that degree were from DANTES, CLEP, tech school, etc. I left AF and applied for a job that required at least an associates degree. During my first job interview I was humiliated by the HR lady as I was interrogated on exactly how the CCAF degree (aircraft maintenance technology) was from a college. At this time the concept of earning a degree online wasn't even invented, so I couldn't even BS my way through that (remote school) angle.

Shortly after the interview I applied to a four-year state college, thinking I would only have to attend two years to finish my bachelors. As I sat down with the registrar, they explained to me how they'd accept the one history class I took, and they'd accept BMT as credit for phys ed. ALL other credits were worthless to them. I walked out of that office and headed straight for the local community college, where I started my four-year degree journey from scratch. I now have my Masters.

If anyone wants to get a CCAF, then fine....but they should take actual general ed college classes that have half a chance of being accepted at an actual four year college.

I speak from experience and used it to counsel hundreds of enlisted throughout my enlisted and officer career.

Mjölnir
04-30-2019, 01:14 PM
So, now I'm a snob? I got my CCAF in 1995, then found out how worthless it was on the outside because ALL credits except for one actual class used to 'earn' that degree were from DANTES, CLEP, tech school, etc. I left AF and applied for a job that required at least an associates degree. During my first job interview I was humiliated by the HR lady as I was interrogated on exactly how the CCAF degree (aircraft maintenance technology) was from a college. At this time the concept of earning a degree online wasn't even invented, so I couldn't even BS my way through that (remote school) angle.

Shortly after the interview I applied to a four-year state college, thinking I would only have to attend two years to finish my bachelors. As I sat down with the registrar, they explained to me how they'd accept the one history class I took, and they'd accept BMT as credit for phys ed. ALL other credits were worthless to them. I walked out of that office and headed straight for the local community college, where I started my four-year degree journey from scratch. I now have my Masters.

If anyone wants to get a CCAF, then fine....but they should take actual general ed college classes that have half a chance of being accepted at an actual four year college.

I speak from experience and used it to counsel hundreds of enlisted throughout my enlisted and officer career.

I do think that online education & the acceptance has gotten better since '95; it isn't Harvard etc. but I think depending on the school there is the same level of acceptance as a state school. To that end, ACE accreditation and using those credits (from CCAF etc.) are helping military members to knock out the lower level & basic things for a degree.

I was able to get all my English, Math and electives (from military training) accepted for somewhere around 42 credits for my undergrad; this was in ~98/99.

LogDog
04-30-2019, 04:50 PM
So, now I'm a snob? I got my CCAF in 1995, then found out how worthless it was on the outside because ALL credits except for one actual class used to 'earn' that degree were from DANTES, CLEP, tech school, etc. I left AF and applied for a job that required at least an associates degree. During my first job interview I was humiliated by the HR lady as I was interrogated on exactly how the CCAF degree (aircraft maintenance technology) was from a college. At this time the concept of earning a degree online wasn't even invented, so I couldn't even BS my way through that (remote school) angle.

Shortly after the interview I applied to a four-year state college, thinking I would only have to attend two years to finish my bachelors. As I sat down with the registrar, they explained to me how they'd accept the one history class I took, and they'd accept BMT as credit for phys ed. ALL other credits were worthless to them. I walked out of that office and headed straight for the local community college, where I started my four-year degree journey from scratch. I now have my Masters.

If anyone wants to get a CCAF, then fine....but they should take actual general ed college classes that have half a chance of being accepted at an actual four year college.

I speak from experience and used it to counsel hundreds of enlisted throughout my enlisted and officer career.
If you read carefully, the eighth word in you post quoting me is "may." If you look down on those with a CCAF then yes, that being a snob. If you don't, then you aren't. The decision as to which you are is totally up to you.

As for you're experiences, those people were just being ignorant.

Rusty Jones
04-30-2019, 05:26 PM
If you read carefully, the eighth word in you post quoting me is "may." If you look down on those with a CCAF then yes, that being a snob. If you don't, then you aren't. The decision as to which you are is totally up to you.

As for you're experiences, those people were just being ignorant.

I don't think anyone looks down on someone with a CCAF. Most people got their CCAFs solely for the purpose of playing along with the system, and are fully aware of its relative worth on the outside.

FLAPS
04-30-2019, 08:03 PM
I don't think anyone looks down on someone with a CCAF. Most people got their CCAFs solely for the purpose of playing along with the system, and are fully aware of its relative worth on the outside.

Yes, most people get their CCAF because they were (told) encouraged to, but of course that will change now that CCAF is no longer a requirement. As for being fully aware of its worth on the outside, I actually thought it would be worth something when I left active duty for the first time. That is why I rushed to get mine done. In hindsight I should have skipped the CLEP/DANTES route and left the AF with some transferable credits rather than the 'degree.'

Mjölnir
05-01-2019, 09:57 AM
Shortly after the interview I applied to a four-year state college, thinking I would only have to attend two years to finish my bachelors. As I sat down with the registrar, they explained to me how they'd accept the one history class I took, and they'd accept BMT as credit for phys ed. ALL other credits were worthless to them. I walked out of that office and headed straight for the local community college, where I started my four-year degree journey from scratch. I now have my Masters.

Curious, what school was that?

SeaLawyer
05-01-2019, 11:07 AM
Shortly after the interview I applied to a four-year state college, thinking I would only have to attend two years to finish my bachelors. As I sat down with the registrar, they explained to me how they'd accept the one history class I took, and they'd accept BMT as credit for phys ed. ALL other credits were worthless to them. I walked out of that office and headed straight for the local community college, where I started my four-year degree journey from scratch. I now have my Masters.



Again, that's becasue the colleges are in it for the money. I, too, applied to a four year school and they accepted 65 of my military credits; however, when I applied to a two year school, they only accepted 32. All credits were ACE certified but the colleges want to ensure you take a minimum amount of courses to make sure they get their dime. As for my Masters, they didn't accept crap. Had to do that all straight through even though I had Gradualte Level credits.

Rusty Jones
05-01-2019, 12:14 PM
All credits were ACE certified but the colleges want to ensure you take a minimum amount of courses to make sure they get their dime. As for my Masters, they didn't accept crap. Had to do that all straight through even though I had Gradualte Level credits.

Colleges take care of this minimum with what's called a "residency requirement." Typically, that requirement is 15 credits for an associate's and 30 for a bachelor's. Only shit schools lack a residency requirement, and there are only two that I'm aware of: Excelsior, and... CCAF.

Grad school is a bit different. Most only accept a maximum of six transfer credits.

FLAPS
05-01-2019, 04:13 PM
Again, that's becasue the colleges are in it for the money.

I completely agree with that. That said, I guessed my way through my CLEP tests, and still to this day not sure how I passed.

I also remember taking a speech/communications test that involved sitting in a room alone giving a prepared speech to a tape recorder. At this time in my life, I had stage fright and would have stumbled, if not failed an actual class. So..can't handle standing in front of people and speaking? No problem, just lock yourself in a closet and talk to the tape recorder and you get full credit! What a joke.

I don't know, but perhaps (in addition to the money incentive) colleges also have a reputation to preserve when it comes to giving transfer credit to these kinds of tests that, in my opinion, aren't representative of an actual education.