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SeaLawyer
04-18-2019, 01:57 PM
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2019/04/17/military-service-academies-begin-to-follow-transgender-ban/

Meanwhile, the average Sailor that has had some "counselling" in their lives struggles to get in.

This is such a distraction and SHOULD be banned as transgender's clearly have mental issues!

Mjölnir
04-18-2019, 03:10 PM
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2019/04/17/military-service-academies-begin-to-follow-transgender-ban/

Meanwhile, the average Sailor that has had some "counselling" in their lives struggles to get in.

This is such a distraction and SHOULD be banned as transgender's clearly have mental issues!

Most are banned under the new policy.

garhkal
04-18-2019, 05:37 PM
About time it got banned.

FLAPS
04-19-2019, 12:29 PM
I try to have an open mind and accept people, but I just don't understand how you can deny or refuse to accept the gender you were born with. I never had a problem with gays and lesbians, because I'm convinced that you DO NOT choose who you are attracted to. I never had that choice, nor have a met any heterosexuals who've admitted to choosing who they were attracted to and who they weren't. However, you can't be born as a male (or female), then expect society to embrace your denial of actually being that gender, and on top of that help pay for it. I also don't understand how the ardent "science is real" bumper sticker-yielding crowd (typically progressives) ignore this very assertion when it comes to transgender issues.

SeaLawyer
04-19-2019, 05:33 PM
Well said FLAPS!

garhkal
04-19-2019, 06:43 PM
I try to have an open mind and accept people, but I just don't understand how you can deny or refuse to accept the gender you were born with. I never had a problem with gays and lesbians, because I'm convinced that you DO NOT choose who you are attracted to. I never had that choice, nor have a met any heterosexuals who've admitted to choosing who they were attracted to and who they weren't. However, you can't be born as a male (or female), then expect society to embrace your denial of actually being that gender, and on top of that help pay for it. I also don't understand how the ardent "science is real" bumper sticker-yielding crowd (typically progressives) ignore this very assertion when it comes to transgender issues.

The part i can never understand is how is saying "I am not the gender i was born into" NOT the same sort of 'insanity" as someone claiming "I am Napoleon", or the like???
Why is one considered "lets lock him up for his own good", while the OTHER gets 'celebrated', and if you don't celebrate it right along with everyone else, you must be a bigot, and we will hound you online/via the courts?

Mjölnir
04-19-2019, 11:15 PM
I don't agree with everyone's lifestyle choices (I don't drink, don't smoke / dip, not into porn, voluntarily wake up early and hit bed early, go to church every week etc.) nor do I expect them to agree with mine. I do believe in treating everyone with respect, whether or not their personal choices align with mine. It isn't my place to judge. However, too many people take a lack of overt condemnation as acceptance, endorsement or support for an issue.

There are definite readiness issues / concerns with transgendered people in the military, most of which had been addressed, the biggest one was the amount of time to effectively migrate from 'untreated gender dysphoria' to sufficient 'gender reassignment' as there are varying degrees of what satisfies being treated (ie. not all transgendered people want to physically change their genitalia). The most drastic timeline -- full blown physical gender assignment is generally 34 months accounting for diagnosis, counseling, gender living / assumption, hormone treatment, and ultimately the series of operations that changes physical 'stuff' and then ultimate recovery. From a military perspective, the 34 months of non-deployability is not really workable. That said, in the case of someone who doesn't need full physical transformation, it could be 12 months, which that period of non-deployability is workable. There are transgendered people who can do high stress, insense jobs just fine, there are some that deal with a myriad of issues, by and large, I think I have known a similar percentage of people in the military who had some sort of mental health, social issue etc. that were or were not transgendered.

Bottom line for me: From a work perspective, if someone can do their job, I really don't care about their personal life, but their personal decisions may hinder whether or not I try to socialize with them.

FWIW, for some time I have thought if someone had enough issues going on inside them that they felt it necessary to assume the opposite gender, the last thing they need is me giving them additional woes.

meatbringer
04-20-2019, 09:33 AM
The part i can never understand is how is saying "I am not the gender i was born into" NOT the same sort of 'insanity" as someone claiming "I am Napoleon", or the like???
Why is one considered "lets lock him up for his own good", while the OTHER gets 'celebrated', and if you don't celebrate it right along with everyone else, you must be a bigot, and we will hound you online/via the courts?

Gender identity disorder, hermaphrodites, extreme cases of hormone imbalance, some born as intersex, gonadal dysgenesis, pseudohermaphroditism.....

There are many different cases and symptoms that help explain reasons behind gender identity disorder or people choosing to go through treatment or therapy. Educate yourself. Also, you don't have to "celebrate it." Accepting them as people and not demonizing them will suffice.

FLAPS
04-20-2019, 11:34 AM
Also, you don't have to "celebrate it."

Well, that's not how many institutions feel about it, you DO have to celebrate it....or will at some point. Just take a look at how the military has embraced "fill in the blank" months, diversity days, pride days, etc. These are celebratory events where YOU ARE EXPECTED to support. So yeah, you are expected to celebrate it.

FLAPS
04-20-2019, 11:41 AM
I do believe in treating everyone with respect, whether or not their personal choices align with mine. It isn't my place to judge.

I agree in treating everyone with respect, but many people have varying definitions of what that actually entails. To me, the respect ends at the very point I feel threatened (professionally, physically, politically, economically, etc). And yes, I am judgmental. We are all judgmental. To have an opposing opinion is to judge. I think perhaps we should insist on kindness vs respect.

Mjölnir
04-20-2019, 02:48 PM
Well, that's not how many institutions feel about it, you DO have to celebrate it....or will at some point. Just take a look at how the military has embraced "fill in the blank" months, diversity days, pride days, etc. These are celebratory events where YOU ARE EXPECTED to support. So yeah, you are expected to celebrate it.

I think the majority of the "fill in the blank" months are part of finding a way to include / acknowledge the backgrounds of a fair number of the military population. US and consequently military history (heroes, leaders etc.) is dominated by a particular demographic while the demographics of who is in the military changed. I don't find it threatening to me to recognize the cultures of those who serve who aren't the same demographic as me nor have I (before being an XO or CO) felt compelled to attend any of these events and rarely did.


I agree in treating everyone with respect, but many people have varying definitions of what that actually entails. To me, the respect ends at the very point I feel threatened (professionally, physically, politically, economically, etc). And yes, I am judgmental. We are all judgmental. To have an opposing opinion is to judge. I think perhaps we should insist on kindness vs respect.

Fair point. I guess when I think of respect I am putting a lot of kindness in there, which isn't necessarily the same. I try to treat people as I would like to be treated, it is easy when you are interacting with someone you need something from, a sign of character when it is someone you need nothing from.

FLAPS
04-20-2019, 06:59 PM
I think the majority of the "fill in the blank" months are part of finding a way to include / acknowledge the backgrounds of a fair number of the military population. US and consequently military history (heroes, leaders etc.) is dominated by a particular demographic while the demographics of who is in the military changed. I don't find it threatening to me to recognize the cultures of those who serve who aren't the same demographic as me nor have I (before being an XO or CO) felt compelled to attend any of these events and rarely did.



Fair point. I guess when I think of respect I am putting a lot of kindness in there, which isn't necessarily the same. I try to treat people as I would like to be treated, it is easy when you are interacting with someone you need something from, a sign of character when it is someone you need nothing from.


While the "fill in the blanks" months have never really offended me, per se, I did get annoyed whenever I was asked by my commander (female conservative) to attend some of the special events in her place. I'd give her this look, and she'd reply....yeah, yeah, I know. Neither of us really had a choice in 'embracing' these events. And just to be clear, it wasn't the people that offended us...all very nice, professional, competent, etc, but rather the persistent reminders that we are different colors/cultures. I've always believed that racism, prejudice will only be a thing of the past when we insist on recognizing each other as the equal human beings that we are. Like I used to remind others in the AF, "we all bleed blue." This is the thing about the DEM party that is so obvious, in that their platform will collapse without the division, victimhood, etc. That's all they have, all they run on.

garhkal
04-20-2019, 07:22 PM
Well, that's not how many institutions feel about it, you DO have to celebrate it....or will at some point. Just take a look at how the military has embraced "fill in the blank" months, diversity days, pride days, etc. These are celebratory events where YOU ARE EXPECTED to support. So yeah, you are expected to celebrate it.

And if you don't, you get dinged on your eval, in the "EO" line..


I think the majority of the "fill in the blank" months are part of finding a way to include / acknowledge the backgrounds of a fair number of the military population. US and consequently military history (heroes, leaders etc.) is dominated by a particular demographic while the demographics of who is in the military changed. I don't find it threatening to me to recognize the cultures of those who serve who aren't the same demographic as me nor have I (before being an XO or CO) felt compelled to attend any of these events and rarely did.

BUT with for how many decades now, we've been holding them, HOW MUCH LONGER must we "Recognize' their backrounds??

FLAPS
04-20-2019, 09:14 PM
BUT with for how many decades now, we've been holding them, HOW MUCH LONGER must we "Recognize' their backrounds??

That's the million dollar question. At what point can we finally say, "ok, we've 'arrived' and now have equality"? It's time to discontinue all events that focus on the accomplishments of minorities." I'm 100% convinced that many Progressives will never allow us to reach this point. Sounds strange, but it makes sense. Those who crave power will do anything to retain it.

garhkal
04-21-2019, 04:48 AM
My point exactly.. The left keeps saying 'we want equality', but keeps pushing for special treatment for XYZ minority...

Mjölnir
04-21-2019, 08:30 AM
And if you don't, you get dinged on your eval, in the "EO" line..

Have never seen that and honestly, as long as your EO line isn't a 1 or 2 ... one individual line doesn't matter, it is the overall average of the report compared against the summary average of the group for that period and the Reporting Senior's overall cumulative average. Generally speaking, the command will rank people from top to bottom, then based on the Reporting Senior's cumulative average distribute the markings in descending order ... EO has been quite commonly used as a way to move the member's individual average up or down to get it in line with the lineal ranking. I have only marked 3 people 5's in EO, my CMEO, Senior Enlisted and the XO ... almost everyone else gets 3's.


BUT with for how many decades now, we've been holding them, HOW MUCH LONGER must we "Recognize' their backrounds??

I would guess as long as they are in the military.

Mjölnir
04-21-2019, 08:33 AM
While the "fill in the blanks" months have never really offended me, per se, I did get annoyed whenever I was asked by my commander (female conservative) to attend some of the special events in her place. I'd give her this look, and she'd reply....yeah, yeah, I know. Neither of us really had a choice in 'embracing' these events.

Attending and embracing are not the same thing.


And just to be clear, it wasn't the people that offended us...all very nice, professional, competent, etc, but rather the persistent reminders that we are different colors/cultures. I've always believed that racism, prejudice will only be a thing of the past when we insist on recognizing each other as the equal human beings that we are. Like I used to remind others in the AF, "we all bleed blue." This is the thing about the DEM party that is so obvious, in that their platform will collapse without the division, victimhood, etc. That's all they have, all they run on.

Concur, identity politics is about division not bringing us together.

meatbringer
04-21-2019, 10:50 AM
Well, that's not how many institutions feel about it, you DO have to celebrate it....or will at some point. Just take a look at how the military has embraced "fill in the blank" months, diversity days, pride days, etc. These are celebratory events where YOU ARE EXPECTED to support. So yeah, you are expected to celebrate it.

I'm sorry they have pride days, etc. Are you forced to partake in anything? Are you forced to do anything for Black History month? For Asian Pacific heritage month? I've never attended anything of the sort in my 17 years of service, and guess what? No one cares, nor has it ever been held against me. I'm sorry that transgender people exist, man. It'll be okay, I promise. Just go to your safe space....

Mjölnir
04-21-2019, 03:50 PM
I'm sorry they have pride days, etc. Are you forced to partake in anything? Are you forced to do anything for Black History month? For Asian Pacific heritage month? I've never attended anything of the sort in my 17 years of service, and guess what? No one cares, nor has it ever been held against me. I'm sorry that transgender people exist, man. It'll be okay, I promise. Just go to your safe space....

The potluck for Asian Pacific Heritage month is the BOMB!!!

FLAPS
04-22-2019, 10:27 AM
I'm sorry they have pride days, etc. Are you forced to partake in anything? Are you forced to do anything for Black History month? For Asian Pacific heritage month? I've never attended anything of the sort in my 17 years of service, and guess what? No one cares, nor has it ever been held against me. I'm sorry that transgender people exist, man. It'll be okay, I promise. Just go to your safe space....

The only point I am trying to make is that their very existence will perpetually keep us divided, even in a seemingly benign way. And yes, from a leadership point of view I was 'forced' to attend/smile/embrace. The only event I actually thought was productive was a food fest where there were multiple cultures together, including Italians. It was great to sample foods from around the world, but then again focus was on the food.

Yes, transgender people exist. What's your point, their existence qualifies them for military service? This is where we disagree. However, the difference between me and one who believes in safe spaces is that I will still treat those with an opposing opinion with kindness, whereas the safe space fan (aka, snowflake) will gather other snowflakes, don the ski masks, and violently riot and threaten people.

SeaLawyer
04-22-2019, 11:24 AM
Concur! I'm not saying they can't perform the duties; however, it's the living situations, standards bias, and distractions as FLAPS mentioned.

Where does one stand with their Physical Readiness Test (PRT) i.e. Guy, Gal??? Let's just all take the women's PRT standard and use that for collective measurement.... Not that I ever agreed to a separate standard to begin with. As long as the military mission holds, there should be one standard and one standard only. Let's establish it now!

Mjölnir
04-22-2019, 11:52 AM
Concur! I'm not saying they can't perform the duties; however, it's the living situations, standards bias, and distractions as FLAPS mentioned.

Living situations: largely solved, ship board living would be the gender that is registered in DEERS.
Standard bias: individuals gotta get past that.
distractions: individuals gotta get past that.


Where does one stand with their Physical Readiness Test (PRT) i.e. Guy, Gal??? Let's just all take the women's PRT standard and use that for collective measurement.... Not that I ever agreed to a separate standard to begin with. As long as the military mission holds, there should be one standard and one standard only. Let's establish it now!

For the Navy, PRT is based on what is registered in DEERS.

meatbringer
04-23-2019, 01:00 AM
The only point I am trying to make is that their very existence will perpetually keep us divided, even in a seemingly benign way. And yes, from a leadership point of view I was 'forced' to attend/smile/embrace. The only event I actually thought was productive was a food fest where there were multiple cultures together, including Italians. It was great to sample foods from around the world, but then again focus was on the food.

Yes, transgender people exist. What's your point, their existence qualifies them for military service? This is where we disagree. However, the difference between me and one who believes in safe spaces is that I will still treat those with an opposing opinion with kindness, whereas the safe space fan (aka, snowflake) will gather other snowflakes, don the ski masks, and violently riot and threaten people.

No, their existence will not keep us divided. The only people who feel divided over this are the ignorant, misinformed, and insecure. Trans will "keep us divided" no more than women, black people, or gays when they were all allowed to serve. This same argument was pushed when gays began to serve openly and were allowed to marry in the service. All the old cranks threw a fit and talked about how it will divide us and ruin the military. Guess what? You were wrong, just as you are wrong now. I currently have 3 transgender individuals in my squadron who are all excellent workers, professional, productive, and valued members. Also, almost no one has a problem with them serving or existing. You wanna know who does have a problem with them serving? The 30 or 40 rednecks in the squadron who can't deploy due to failed PT tests, knee problems or some other ridiculous waiver due to them being overweight or POS.

The only people who will be "divided" over trans serving are those who are scared, insecure, ignorant, or misinformed. It's the same people who freaked out about women, blacks, and gays.

meatbringer
04-23-2019, 01:03 AM
Yes, transgender people exist. What's your point, their existence qualifies them for military service? This is where we disagree. However, the difference between me and one who believes in safe spaces is that I will still treat those with an opposing opinion with kindness, whereas the safe space fan (aka, snowflake) will gather other snowflakes, don the ski masks, and violently riot and threaten people.

Great irrelevant "snowflake" rebuttal as well. I totally forgot about "snowflakes" donning weapons and tiki torches, marching in the streets chanting "Hail Trump" and "Jews will not replace us" while they incited violence and actually led to the murder and injury of innocent people. Oh, wait a minute.......

garhkal
04-23-2019, 06:01 AM
And yes, from a leadership point of view I was 'forced' to attend/smile/embrace.


Same here. When the boss says "there's XYZ event, everyone WILL Attend, or is highly encouraged to go, but if you don't, there may be repercussions." to me that IS forcing you.


Living situations: largely solved, ship board living would be the gender that is registered in DEERS.
Standard bias: individuals gotta get past that.
distractions: individuals gotta get past that.

So women who don't wanna shower with guys, even when those guys who 'identify as women', just what.. have to suck it up?

meatbringer
04-23-2019, 10:12 AM
Same here. When the boss says "there's XYZ event, everyone WILL Attend, or is highly encouraged to go, but if you don't, there may be repercussions." to me that IS forcing you.



So women who don't wanna shower with guys, even when those guys who 'identify as women', just what.. have to suck it up?

First of all, being expected or encouraged to go to a base event due to your leadership position, etc, does not mean you are being forced to "embrace and accept it." Trust me, I've been to plenty of ridiculous religious nonsense and things of the sort, and I've also opted out of many, if not most, of extra events. Guess what? Still getting promoted all the time. Hell, they even made me an officer. Also, this same argument was had when gays were allowed to openly serve and marry. Nothing has changed, and no one has forced anyone to embrace or even do anything differently.

The logistics behind such policies is a good point to bring up. I will admit that this was my only real concern when DADT was repealed, but there hasn't been an issue. Wanna know what else? Other countries that allow transgender to serve openly don't have any problems with this, and there are quite a few. The truth is that you and most of us have already unknowingly showered with gay men and transgender and nothing has ever come of it.

FLAPS
04-24-2019, 01:40 PM
First of all, being expected or encouraged to go to a base event due to your leadership position, etc, does not mean you are being forced to "embrace and accept it." Trust me, I've been to plenty of ridiculous religious nonsense and things of the sort, and I've also opted out of many, if not most, of extra events. Guess what? Still getting promoted all the time. Hell, they even made me an officer. Also, this same argument was had when gays were allowed to openly serve and marry. Nothing has changed, and no one has forced anyone to embrace or even do anything differently.

The logistics behind such policies is a good point to bring up. I will admit that this was my only real concern when DADT was repealed, but there hasn't been an issue. Wanna know what else? Other countries that allow transgender to serve openly don't have any problems with this, and there are quite a few. The truth is that you and most of us have already unknowingly showered with gay men and transgender and nothing has ever come of it.

You and I have a difference in opinion. Also, why are you bringing up gay people? I never once had a problem serving with them, nor do I judge them negatively for being gay. Unlike trans, gay people don't deny their own gender.

FLAPS
04-24-2019, 01:44 PM
The part i can never understand is how is saying "I am not the gender i was born into" NOT the same sort of 'insanity" as someone claiming "I am Napoleon", or the like???
Why is one considered "lets lock him up for his own good", while the OTHER gets 'celebrated', and if you don't celebrate it right along with everyone else, you must be a bigot, and we will hound you online/via the courts?

You know what I say? SCIENCE IS REAL. You were born with a shlong, so therefore you can never be a female...no matter how much you try to pretend to be. Bruce Jenner is a MALE. Chas Bono is a FEMALE. SCIENCE IS REAL. Oh....the hypocrisy of the left.

garhkal
04-24-2019, 05:45 PM
Exactly. No matter how many ops you go through your DNA STILL Shows you as male or female...

meatbringer
04-24-2019, 10:37 PM
You know what I say? SCIENCE IS REAL. You were born with a shlong, so therefore you can never be a female...no matter how much you try to pretend to be. Bruce Jenner is a MALE. Chas Bono is a FEMALE. SCIENCE IS REAL. Oh....the hypocrisy of the left.

No one is saying science isn't real, and of course you have to make this a thing about "the left." Not surprising. First the snowflake comment and now this. I can tell you're really smart and unbiased.

Anyways, as I mentioned previously in this discussion, you guys are extremely uninformed and have obviously decided to not educate yourselves in the matter. Gender identity disorder, hermaphrodites, extreme cases of hormone imbalance, some born as intersex, gonadal dysgenesis, pseudohermaphroditism..... All these things exist, and it is not always as simple as merely saying "Guys have schlongs." Science is real! Read a book.

Also, I brought up gays because it is very relevant to this argument. It concerns me and tells me that this debate is pointless since you don't see the parallels in the subjects. One could simply use your brilliant stance/argument and say "Men are meant to be attracted to women, so gays must be mentally ill. They shouldn't serve." When the truth is that things are not always that black and white.

You're right! Science is real! Read up on it, because everything I have mentioned is backed up by scientific research. Imagine that....

FLAPS
04-24-2019, 11:22 PM
Gender identity disorder

There, you said it. Thank you. THIS is why they don't belong in the military. They need help, and the military isn't the place to get that help.

meatbringer
04-25-2019, 02:36 AM
There, you said it. Thank you. THIS is why they don't belong in the military. They need help, and the military isn't the place to get that help.

Wow. Another great rebuttal. You're really good at this. Yes, there are some who may have gender identity disorder serving, and guess what? No issues. Let me remind you that I have three in my squadron and they are some of my top performers, requiring nothing more than some paperwork to be routed in order for them to serve openly with no issues. Just because someone is transexual, it does not mean that they are mentally incapable to serve in the military.

If we are going that route, then I feel that people who believe in a magical sky man who controls everything are mentally unstable and need help. How can someone who believes in a magic sky man with zero proof of his existence be mentally fit to serve. Those people need help, and the military isn't the place to get it.

Something tells me that this example will also be lost on you. The truth is that trans people just make you uncomfortable and you know nothing of the subject or simply can't grasp the science behind it. You've proven that, and your irrelevant ramblings about "the left" and "snowflakes" in this debate paint a pretty clear picture of you.

You could also simply look up the dozens of other countries who allow trans to serve openly and see that there are no issues, just as we've had no real issues with them serving up until now.

LogDog
04-25-2019, 05:43 AM
I don't agree with everyone's lifestyle choices (I don't drink, don't smoke / dip, not into porn, voluntarily wake up early and hit bed early, go to church every week etc.) nor do I expect them to agree with mine. I do believe in treating everyone with respect, whether or not their personal choices align with mine. It isn't my place to judge. However, too many people take a lack of overt condemnation as acceptance, endorsement or support for an issue.
No offense, but you lead a more boring life than I do. LOL


There are definite readiness issues / concerns with transgendered people in the military, most of which had been addressed, the biggest one was the amount of time to effectively migrate from 'untreated gender dysphoria' to sufficient 'gender reassignment' as there are varying degrees of what satisfies being treated (ie. not all transgendered people want to physically change their genitalia). The most drastic timeline -- full blown physical gender assignment is generally 34 months accounting for diagnosis, counseling, gender living / assumption, hormone treatment, and ultimately the series of operations that changes physical 'stuff' and then ultimate recovery. From a military perspective, the 34 months of non-deployability is not really workable. That said, in the case of someone who doesn't need full physical transformation, it could be 12 months, which that period of non-deployability is workable. There are transgendered people who can do high stress, insense jobs just fine, there are some that deal with a myriad of issues, by and large, I think I have known a similar percentage of people in the military who had some sort of mental health, social issue etc. that were or were not transgendered.
I have no problem with people who identify as a gender other than what they were physically born with. What I do have a problem with is whether the military should be paying to have their gender reassignment. Maybe that should be done after they retire but not during their enlistment. As you pointed out, they won't be deployable for a period of time which means someone else has to take their place. If the gender reassignment take longer than 12 months then they should be facing discharge just like others who can't deploy for other reasons. [/quote]


Bottom line for me: From a work perspective, if someone can do their job, I really don't care about their personal life, but their personal decisions may hinder whether or not I try to socialize with them.
The military needs men and women, regardless of which gender they self-identify with, and if they meet the standards to enlist then let them enlist. As for socializing with anyone, that's still an individual choice. There were people I refused to socialize with unless it was at a formal event and even then I'd try to avoid them. If you don't want socialize with someone then that's your choice.


FWIW, for some time I have thought if someone had enough issues going on inside them that they felt it necessary to assume the opposite gender, the last thing they need is me giving them additional woes.
People have a lot of issues they're dealing with that supervisors and commanders know nothing about. It's not up to the supervisor or commander to solve those problems but to provide them information/advice on how and where to get the help they need to cope with their problems.

Mjölnir
04-25-2019, 10:21 AM
I have no problem with people who identify as a gender other than what they were physically born with. What I do have a problem with is whether the military should be paying to have their gender reassignment. Maybe that should be done after they retire but not during their enlistment. As you pointed out, they won't be deployable for a period of time which means someone else has to take their place. If the gender reassignment take longer than 12 months then they should be facing discharge just like others who can't deploy for other reasons.

There are reasons to have plastic surgeons practice hustle of surgery, in part it is a QOL issue, in part it is maintenance of a skill set (genital reconstruction) that doesn’t get practice a lot out of dire situations. Around 04 or 05 there was an Army soldier who lost his genitals to an IED; DoD contracted a surgeon who does gender reassignment to rebuild what was lost; same reason things like breast enlargements (most reductions are done to deal with back pain), penis enlargement and liposuction are done at a few places.

As far as non deployability, the USN and USMC cycle personnel through sea/FMF (deplorable) and shore (non-deplorable) assignments. Things like this are usually done on, or require reassignment to an abbreviated shore duty job which resets their rotation timing (done when females get pregnant, male has a hernia etc.).


People have a lot of issues they're dealing with that supervisors and commanders know nothing about. It's not up to the supervisor or commander to solve those problems but to provide them information/advice on how and where to get the help they need to cope with their problems.

Pretty much. By and large my job is not fixing things, providing people the available / authorized resources to solve their issues, evaluating fitness for promotion, rewarding superior performance and holding them accountable if they stray from standards is more my thing.

FLAPS
04-25-2019, 01:44 PM
The truth is that trans people just make you uncomfortable .

You're right, they make me uncomfortable. I don't get it...being born a male but wanting to be recognized as a female. Sorry you don't like my opinion. I don't feel the need to "read a book" to change that opinion. It's not a "bigoted" opinion either, as I don't hate transgender people.

meatbringer
04-25-2019, 02:15 PM
You're right, they make me uncomfortable. I don't get it...being born a male but wanting to be recognized as a female. Sorry you don't like my opinion. I don't feel the need to "read a book" to change that opinion. It's not a "bigoted" opinion either, as I don't hate transgender people.

First of all, I never used accused you or even used the word "bigoted," so I'm unsure why you felt the need to bring that up. Yeah, I know they obviously make you uncomfortable, but becoming informed and "reading a book" on the subject would help you understand why, just because someone is transgender, it doesn't mean that they are crazy or unfit to serve. But we know you refuse to, because the subject makes you uncomfortable and it's easier just to spout misinformed nonsense. Your opinion doesn't bother me, but your refusal to become informed on the subject, listen to reason or logic, and the way you continually spout off "the left" and "snowflake" nonsense is pretty bothersome and sad.

FLAPS
04-25-2019, 03:09 PM
First of all, I never used accused you or even used the word "bigoted," so I'm unsure why you felt the need to bring that up. Yeah, I know they obviously make you uncomfortable, but becoming informed and "reading a book" on the subject would help you understand why, just because someone is transgender, it doesn't mean that they are crazy or unfit to serve. But we know you refuse to, because the subject makes you uncomfortable and it's easier just to spout misinformed nonsense. Your opinion doesn't bother me, but your refusal to become informed on the subject, listen to reason or logic, and the way you continually spout off "the left" and "snowflake" nonsense is pretty bothersome and sad.

You didn't use the word "bigoted," and I didn't use the word "crazy." Not sure why you felt the need to bring it up. As for your so-called logic and reason, spare me. Why would I have interest in researching the reason why a boy is convincing himself he's a girl? There are plenty of subjects people are passionate about that others simply have no interest in researching.

Let me ask you a question, how did you feel when a baker (artist in his own right) refused to make a gay-themed wedding cake? Did you "read a book" or otherwise try your hardest to understand his point of view, or did you jump on the "he's a Christian bigot and should lose his livelihood!" bandwagon? I'm guessing the later.

LogDog
04-25-2019, 05:44 PM
There are reasons to have plastic surgeons practice hustle of surgery, in part it is a QOL issue, in part it is maintenance of a skill set (genital reconstruction) that doesn’t get practice a lot out of dire situations. Around 04 or 05 there was an Army soldier who lost his genitals to an IED; DoD contracted a surgeon who does gender reassignment to rebuild what was lost; same reason things like breast enlargements (most reductions are done to deal with back pain), penis enlargement and liposuction are done at a few places.
I don't argue plastic surgeons need cases to maintain/expand their skills and fi there aren't enough cases for them to use their skills they can enter into an arrangement with local hospitals to perform various types of surgeries where the hospital has no or limited surgical specialties. In the late 80s, at Cannon AFB, we had two surgeons who were underutilized and the hospital commander established a formal agreement with the local hospital allowing the two surgeons to perform surgeries there to maintain their skills. It worked out well with both hospitals and the patients they served benefiting.

My contention with allowing gender reassignment surgery is whether the person is enlisting just to get the surgery and not have to pay for it them-self. Unless the surgery was vital to readiness then the surgery should be considered elective surgery. If the base has the capacity to do the surgery and the recovery time wouldn't affect the individual's ability to deploy beyond their service's requirements then I wouldn't be against that because, as you pointed out, the plastic surgeons need cases like this to maintain their skills.


As far as non deployability, the USN and USMC cycle personnel through sea/FMF (deplorable) and shore (non-deplorable) assignments. Things like this are usually done on, or require reassignment to an abbreviated shore duty job which resets their rotation timing (done when females get pregnant, male has a hernia etc.).
That's fine, but if the service has a limit on how long someone can be non-deployable and they exceed that limit then their non-deployable status becomes a problem for their unit and fellow personnel and they should be considered for discharge.



Pretty much. By and large my job is not fixing things, providing people the available / authorized resources to solve their issues, evaluating fitness for promotion, rewarding superior performance and holding them accountable if they stray from standards is more my thing.
For most people, that's the best we can do. My people's personal problems weren't my personal problems but if they in any way affected their work, the flight, or group then I needed to intervene with them and get them the help they needed.

LogDog
04-25-2019, 05:50 PM
You're right, they make me uncomfortable. I don't get it...being born a male but wanting to be recognized as a female. Sorry you don't like my opinion. I don't feel the need to "read a book" to change that opinion. It's not a "bigoted" opinion either, as I don't hate transgender people.
The fact they make you feel uncomfortable shouldn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to serve. That same arguement was used for decades to keep Blacks segregated in the military and gays out of the military. I'm not saying you have to like transgender people or who have gender identity disorder just treat them like you'd want to be treated. Treat them like a human being.

FLAPS
04-25-2019, 06:16 PM
The fact they make you feel uncomfortable shouldn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to serve. That same arguement was used for decades to keep Blacks segregated in the military and gays out of the military. I'm not saying you have to like transgender people or who have gender identity disorder just treat them like you'd want to be treated. Treat them like a human being.

I respect your opinion. If I (knowingly) meet a transgender person, I will respectfully ask them why they want to pretend to be a sex they were not born as instead of just being gay/lesbian. Nothing will ever change my mind and convince me that you are born a male, but can change your sex to female. Just accept what you were born as and live with it. It doesn't mean you have to act a certain way or dress a certain way. Just "man up" (so to speak) and tell people, "yes, I am a man but I prefer to wear dresses and have sexual relations with other men." Ok, got it. But telling me, "I was born as a male but last month I decided that I am no longer a male" just isn't going to cut it. You don't get to make that choice...not on this planet.

LogDog
04-25-2019, 06:36 PM
I respect your opinion. If I (knowingly) meet a transgender person, I will respectfully ask them why they want to pretend to be a sex they were not born as instead of just being gay/lesbian. Nothing will ever change my mind and convince me that you are born a male, but can change your sex to female. Just accept what you were born as and live with it. It doesn't mean you have to act a certain way or dress a certain way. Just "man up" (so to speak) and tell people, "yes, I am a man but I prefer to wear dresses and have sexual relations with other men." Ok, got it. But telling me, "I was born as a male but last month I decided that I am no longer a male" just isn't going to cut it. You don't get to make that choice...not on this planet.
Do you know how insulting your questioning of another person to justify why they "they want to pretend to be a sex they were not born as instead of just being gay/lesbian" is? How would you feel if they asked you "Why do you pretend to be a man when there is a good chance you were born into the wrong body?" Your question is as insensitive as some religious fanatic wanting an atheist to justify why they don't believe in God but they take offense when anyone does the same to them.

If you want to learn why they identify as a different gender the first step is to read up and learn on the subject so when you talk to them about it you have real knowledge to understand them.

As for your comment " Ok, got it. But telling me, "I was born as a male but last month I decided that I am no longer a male" just isn't going to cut it. You don't get to make that choice...not on this planet." Who made you King of Earth to tell anyone what choice they get to make. All it shows is you're closed-minded on this subject.

FLAPS
04-25-2019, 07:20 PM
Do you know how insulting your questioning of another person to justify why they "they want to pretend to be a sex they were not born as instead of just being gay/lesbian" is? How would you feel if they asked you "Why do you pretend to be a man when there is a good chance you were born into the wrong body?" Your question is as insensitive as some religious fanatic wanting an atheist to justify why they don't believe in God but they take offense when anyone does the same to them.

If you want to learn why they identify as a different gender the first step is to read up and learn on the subject so when you talk to them about it you have real knowledge as to understand.

As for your comment " Ok, got it. But telling me, "I was born as a male but last month I decided that I am no longer a male" just isn't going to cut it. You don't get to make that choice...not on this planet." Who made you King of Earth to tell anyone what choice they get to make. All it shows is you're closed-minded on this subject.


If I was that close minded then I guess I wouldn't ask them any questions now, would I? I'm quite sure a transgender person who is actually comfortable in their own skin wouldn't get offended by asking them about being a transgender. Now, I'll admit that there's probably a less offensive way to go about asking the question, but for both parties to just ignore the "elephant in the room" is just plain childish.

FLAPS
04-25-2019, 07:23 PM
Question on "equality" and fairness: Is it fair for a female athlete to have to compete against a transgender female?

LogDog
04-25-2019, 07:27 PM
If I was that close minded then I guess I wouldn't ask them any questions now, would I? I'm quite sure a transgender person who is actually comfortable in their own skin wouldn't get offended by asking them about being a transgender. Now, I'll admit that there's probably a less offensive way to go about asking the question, but for both parties to just ignore the "elephant in the room" is just plain childish.
Asking them why they "pretend" isn't asking them respectfully and it is insulting. It is closed-minded of you because you've already decided they are "pretending" instead of trying to learn why they think they were born in the wrong body. And your not just ignoring the "elephant in the room" you're denying the "elephant is in the room." Again, the action of a closed-minded person.

LogDog
04-25-2019, 07:29 PM
Question on "equality" and fairness: Is it fair for a female athlete to have to compete against a transgender female?
This is not about athletic competition, it's about whether transgenders can serve in the military.

FLAPS
04-25-2019, 07:48 PM
This is not about athletic competition, it's about whether transgenders can serve in the military.

Ok forum police, let me rephrase a simple question. IF a Military Service Academy were to admit transgender females, is it fair to allow them to compete against female cadet athletes? Sports participation at the junior or varsity levels is mandatory for most cadets/midshipmen, so this is a relevant question.

garhkal
04-25-2019, 07:52 PM
Do you know how insulting your questioning of another person to justify why they "they want to pretend to be a sex they were not born as instead of just being gay/lesbian" is? How would you feel if they asked you "Why do you pretend to be a man when there is a good chance you were born into the wrong body?" Your question is as insensitive as some religious fanatic wanting an atheist to justify why they don't believe in God but they take offense when anyone does the same to them.

Show me some genetic proof that someone can be "Born into the wrong body". TILL THEN i will always see it as a mental problem. AND IF someone with say OCD, or Bi-polar can't serve, due to their "mental problems", then WHY SHOULD someone who's got 'Gender identity DISORDER" be allowed to???

And where do we draw the line? What of those people who feel they are "Trans-abled, and willingly CUT OFF LIMBS to make their physical body, equal their mental state"?? SHOULD they serve?

FLAPS
04-25-2019, 07:58 PM
Show me some genetic proof that someone can be "Born into the wrong body".

That whole statement (born into the wrong body) can really open up a can of worms. I'm a middle age white guy. Can I identify as a Mexican because that is what I was 'supposed' to be born as....according to me?

LogDog
04-25-2019, 11:52 PM
Ok forum police, let me rephrase a simple question. IF a Military Service Academy were to admit transgender females, is it fair to allow them to compete against female cadet athletes? Sports participation at the junior or varsity levels is mandatory for most cadets/midshipmen, so this is a relevant question.
Is your position so lacking of an intelligent argument you have to resort to ad hominem attacks by calling me the "forum police"? You can do better than that.

As for your question, it's a bit off-topic but I will entertain it. I will leave that up to the academies to decided just as I will leave it up to the governing sports authorities (NCAA and regional colleges associations) for intercollegiate athletic competition for them to decide.

LogDog
04-25-2019, 11:58 PM
That whole statement (born into the wrong body) can really open up a can of worms. I'm a middle age white guy. Can I identify as a Mexican because that is what I was 'supposed' to be born as....according to me?
If you want to identify as a Mexican you can however to say you're of Mexican ancestry when your not is called lying. A genetic test can be given to help determine if you share the genetic traits associated with the Mexican people. If you do then you can claim "X" percentage Mexican.

meatbringer
04-26-2019, 02:29 AM
You didn't use the word "bigoted," and I didn't use the word "crazy." Not sure why you felt the need to bring it up. As for your so-called logic and reason, spare me. Why would I have interest in researching the reason why a boy is convincing himself he's a girl? There are plenty of subjects people are passionate about that others simply have no interest in researching.

Let me ask you a question, how did you feel when a baker (artist in his own right) refused to make a gay-themed wedding cake? Did you "read a book" or otherwise try your hardest to understand his point of view, or did you jump on the "he's a Christian bigot and should lose his livelihood!" bandwagon? I'm guessing the later.

Well, if you did take the time to learn something, then you would realize how ridiculous and ignorant your statements are, specifically about "...pretending to be another sex." Instead of learning about different conditions, you choose to remain uninformed and lazy. For example if you and your smart buddy, Gharkal, informed yourselves, then you would realize that there ARE cases of people who are born with different internal organs, atypical genitalia, and extreme hormone imbalances that make it challenging for them to discern their gender. Like you said before, science is real.

FLAPS: "Trans make me uncomfortable and I think they are unstable because they pretend to be another gender. Dudes have schlongs."

Me: "If you read up on atypical genitalia, hermaphroditism, hormone imbalance, the scientific research involved, etc, you would realize that they are not pretending, and there are many reasons for their mindset and choice."

FLAPS: "Why would I want to learn about that? Nah, they are just pretending. I'm sure of it."


And another irrelevant talking point about the baker! You must watch a lot of Fox News... Screw it, I'll entertain: The "Christian" who refused to make a wedding cake for a gay ceremony is a hypocrite. Not only that, but allowing such behavior can create a slippery slope of discrimination. Does that same baker refuse to bake cakes for people who eat shell fish (forbidden in the bible)? Does that baker refuse to sell baked goods to anyone who isn't Christian or shares his beliefs? Does the baker refuse to sell to people who have been divorced, have sex before marriage, or work on Sundays? Of course not. Also, what comes next? Refusing someone of a different religion medical care or groceries? Would you be supporting the baker if the roles were reversed, or what if a hotel manager refused to give you a room when you needed one because you were wearing your MAGA hat?

All of these examples are relevant, logical, and destroy your weak argument, so I'm sure you'll just ignore it or not be able to realize the parallels.

meatbringer
04-26-2019, 02:33 AM
The fact they make you feel uncomfortable shouldn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to serve. That same arguement was used for decades to keep Blacks segregated in the military and gays out of the military. I'm not saying you have to like transgender people or who have gender identity disorder just treat them like you'd want to be treated. Treat them like a human being.

I've already made the argument about going through the same thing with blacks, women, and gays in the military, and how FLAP's stance is the same it was back then. He blatantly ignores it or doesn't see the similarities. He's just simply scared of what he doesn't understand. It makes him uncomfortable. We all know what happens when you let fear drive your decisions and opinions.

LogDog
04-26-2019, 03:37 AM
Show me some genetic proof that someone can be "Born into the wrong body". TILL THEN i will always see it as a mental problem. AND IF someone with say OCD, or Bi-polar can't serve, due to their "mental problems", then WHY SHOULD someone who's got 'Gender identity DISORDER" be allowed to???

And where do we draw the line? What of those people who feel they are "Trans-abled, and willingly CUT OFF LIMBS to make their physical body, equal their mental state"?? SHOULD they serve?
I have not said the cause of gender identity disorder is caused by genetics. The cause(s) are debatable but the disorder is recognized by the American Psychiatric Association as being a real disorder. What is the cause of gender identity disorder? Here's what Harvard University says:

Science tells us that gender is certainly not binary; it may not even be a linear spectrum. Like many other facets of identity, it can operate on a broad range of levels and operate outside of many definitions. And it also appears that gender may not be as static as we assume. At the forefront of this, transgender identity is complex – it’s unlikely we’ll ever be able to attribute it to one neat, contained set of causes, and there is still much to be learned. But we know now that several of those causes are biological. These individuals are not suffering a mental illness, or capriciously “choosing” a different identity. The transgender identity is multi-dimensional – but it deserves no less recognition or respect than any other facet of humankind.
Harvard (http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/)

LogDog
04-26-2019, 03:51 AM
I've already made the argument about going through the same thing with blacks, women, and gays in the military, and how FLAP's stance is the same it was back then. He blatantly ignores it or doesn't see the similarities. He's just simply scared of what he doesn't understand. It makes him uncomfortable. We all know what happens when you let fear drive your decisions and opinions.
I understand that but with people with closed minds you have to continuously approach with different options for looking at their problem. FLAPS said "If I (knowingly) meet a transgender person, I will respectfully ask them why they want to pretend to be a sex they were not born as instead of just being gay/lesbian. Nothing will ever change my mind and convince me that you are born a male, but can change your sex to female." Instead of the way he would ask them he should wait until the person brings up the subject. Once the subject is breached he should ask open-ended questions like "I don't know enough about that, could you explain it to me?" Following up with "How did you come to realize your condition?" And he should continue with open-ended questions until he has enough information. Not only will he learn something but he might be able to realize the person may just be telling the truth.

FLAPS' second sentence says "Nothing will change my mind..." immediately closes off any meaningful discussion on the subject. Sometimes it's better to be quiet, hear/listen, read, and try comprehending a subject on which he knows nothing about.

Mjölnir
04-26-2019, 09:37 AM
AND IF someone with say OCD, or Bi-polar can't serve, due to their "mental problems", then WHY SHOULD someone who's got 'Gender identity DISORDER" be allowed to???

Neither bipolar disorder nor OCD are automatic cause for separation; previous manifestation is waiverable for military entry depending on severity and length since diagnosis. Basically, if the issue is under control they can serve.


And where do we draw the line? What of those people who feel they are "Trans-abled, and willingly CUT OFF LIMBS to make their physical body, equal their mental state"?? SHOULD they serve?

I personally draw a line right around someone’s ability to accomplish the mission; nothing more nor less. DOD has made waivers for amputees or people in wheelchairs, people get hurt and take 12 months and longer to recover; from a readiness perspective this is not really different. I don’t think that is necessarily wrong as long as the numbers are relatively small and do not adversely impact readiness and the cost is negligible; we spend more on Viagra prescriptions than gender dysphoria. I have had 3 transgender personnel work for me in the last 3 years and I have had less problems / lost work etc. with their situation than I have due to alcohol related incidents. If I were asked what cost me more lost productivity ... we'd be talking about banning alcohol.

The current policy reversal was against all the service chiefs’ and then-SECDEF’s recommendations; in having dealt with the issue firsthand it seems this was based on playing to base voters vice mission readiness / lethality.

SeaLawyer
04-26-2019, 10:52 AM
As far as I'm concerned, there are two occupational fields with bonafide genital requirments that separate all this: A sperm donor and a wet nurse. If you can't fulfill either of these duties then where's the line in the sand?

LogDog
04-26-2019, 04:46 PM
As far as I'm concerned, there are two occupational fields with bonafide genital requirments that separate all this: A sperm donor and a wet nurse. If you can't fulfill either of these duties then where's the line in the sand?

Hopefully, you're not looking to cross-train. LOL

SeaLawyer
04-26-2019, 05:27 PM
Good one LogDog!!!

Miraculously, I can perform both!!!

garhkal
04-26-2019, 06:33 PM
I have not said the cause of gender identity disorder is caused by genetics. The cause(s) are debatable but the disorder is recognized by the American Psychiatric Association as being a real disorder. What is the cause of gender identity disorder? Here's what Harvard University says:

But why should we in effect coddle and celebrate one disorder (GID) but, when it comes to other disorders (skitoids, OCD, Bi-polar etc), they are seen as mental?
THAT Is what i am not understanding. What makes those with GID so special, as to not just be seen as yet another nut-job, but someone we not only have to 'accept', but celebrate??

LogDog
04-26-2019, 08:13 PM
Good one LogDog!!!

Miraculously, I can perform both!!!
Don't tell FLAPS that or he claim you can only be one; a sperm donor or a wet nurse. Perhaps you're a monogender-asexual Sontaran, from Dr. Who, who can genetically altered himself to have mammary glands but even then you only reproduce by cloning so being able to produce sperm isn't necessary. But on the other hand, you'd look like "a talking baked potato."

LogDog
04-26-2019, 08:26 PM
But why should we in effect coddle and celebrate one disorder (GID) but, when it comes to other disorders (skitoids, OCD, Bi-polar etc), they are seen as mental?
Please provide evidence that they are being coddled or that we (the military) are celebrating GID. The American Psychiatric Association (APA) doesn't consider GID as a mental issue. Unless you're smarter than the APA, which from your posts I doubt you are, I'll defer to their opinion


THAT Is what i am not understanding. What makes those with GID so special, as to not just be seen as yet another nut-job, but someone we not only have to 'accept', but celebrate??
You're proclaiming people with GID as nutjobs but you have nothing but your own, uninformed and limited opinion. Please provide evidence they are a "nutjob."

Are alcoholics nut jobs? Does the military coddle alcoholics or do they treat them for their condition? Let me rephrase what you started your post.

"But why should we in effect coddle and celebrate alcoholics but, when it comes to other disorders (skitoids, OCD, Bi-polar etc), they are seen as mental?"

"THAT Is what i am not understanding. What makes those with alcoholism so special, as to not just be seen as yet another nut-job, but someone we not only have to 'accept', but celebrate?"

Like FLAPS, you suffer from a closed mind instead of getting information and facts on what GID is. If you do you still might have the same opinion but at least you'll have some understanding of what your against.

garhkal
04-27-2019, 04:48 AM
Please provide evidence that they are being coddled or that we (the military) are celebrating GID. The American Psychiatric Association (APA) doesn't consider GID as a mental issue. Unless you're smarter than the APA, which from your posts I doubt you are, I'll defer to their opinion

How's about making people go to LGBTQ pride parades! DOES THAT bloody well count as coddling/ forcing us to celebrate it???



You're proclaiming people with GID as nutjobs but you have nothing but your own, uninformed and limited opinion. Please provide evidence they are a "nutjob."

If its a mental disorder like OCD, how is that NOT them being nutty??

LogDog
04-27-2019, 06:18 AM
How's about making people go to LGBTQ pride parades! DOES THAT bloody well count as coddling/ forcing us to celebrate it???
Please provide proof of this. I did a Google search using "military orders members to march in gay pride parade" and "military forces members to march in gay pride parade" and search ten pages of results yielded nothing. So how about providing proof of your claim?



If its a mental disorder like OCD, how is that NOT them being nutty??
Mjolnir answered this in post #55

You're good at making a claim but why is it when you're asked to prove what you claim you don't? I asked you in post #61 "Please provide evidence that they are being coddled or that we (the military) are celebrating GID" and you refused to answer the question. Why are you running away from providing proof of what you claim?

Before you make any more claims, how about backing up the claims you've already made. One could make the claim that continually making unsupported claims on this forum means that person is nutty.

Mjölnir
04-27-2019, 12:34 PM
Please provide proof of this. I did a Google search using "military orders members to march in gay pride parade" and "military forces members to march in gay pride parade" and search ten pages of results yielded nothing. So how about providing proof of your claim?

I've never heard of anyone forced to attend.

meatbringer
04-27-2019, 02:49 PM
I've never heard of anyone forced to attend.

That's because it doesn't happen.

LogDog
04-27-2019, 06:06 PM
I've never heard of anyone forced to attend.
That's why I asked garhkal to provide proof of what he says. He has a habit of making unsubstantiated claims but rarely backs them up.

garhkal
04-28-2019, 01:43 AM
Please provide proof of this. I did a Google search using "military orders members to march in gay pride parade" and "military forces members to march in gay pride parade" and search ten pages of results yielded nothing. So how about providing proof of your claim?

IIRC this site itself (in the news) had a mil member back in 2011/12, who complained about being forced to attend a pride parade in San diego.
Though I can't find the story now, the mil HAS attended pride parades in San diego..
https://sdpride.org/military/

Now when i search via duckduckgo or bing, i get several in the intro of fire-fighters who did get forced to attend, one even mentions the fire dept was being sued BY the fire fighters..
Maybe that's what i was thinking of.
STILL, imo we shouldn't be forced to attend, just 'to show our support' for ANY Parades...

Mjölnir
04-28-2019, 01:46 AM
IIRC this site itself (in the news) had a mil member back in 2011/12, who complained about being forced to attend a pride parade in San diego.
Though I can't find the story now, the mil HAS attended pride parades in San diego..
https://sdpride.org/military/

Now when i search via duckduckgo or bing, i get several in the intro of fire-fighters who did get forced to attend, one even mentions the fire dept was being sued BY the fire fighters..
Maybe that's what i was thinking of.
STILL, imo we shouldn't be forced to attend, just 'to show our support' for ANY Parades...

That link is for people to volunteer to march; hardly the forcing you are describing.

LogDog
04-28-2019, 02:22 AM
IIRC this site itself (in the news) had a mil member back in 2011/12, who complained about being forced to attend a pride parade in San diego.
Though I can't find the story now, the mil HAS attended pride parades in San diego..
https://sdpride.org/military/
(https://sdpride.org/military/)In 2011, there were several military members who marched in that parade and a year later the DoD issued guidance for its members.

Under the guidelines released by the Defense Department, service members can wear their uniforms to march in the parade as long as they participate "in a personal capacity" and follow set standards of "appearance and wear of the military uniform."
https://www.cnn.com/2012/07/20/us/california-military-gay-parade/index.html

(https://www.cnn.com/2012/07/20/us/california-military-gay-parade/index.html)
The key phrase is "in a personal capacity" meaning the military won't order you to do it.


Now when i search via duckduckgo or bing, i get several in the intro of fire-fighters who did get forced to attend, one even mentions the fire dept was being sued BY the fire fighters..
Maybe that's what i was thinking of.
STILL, imo we shouldn't be forced to attend, just 'to show our support' for ANY Parades...
Again, please provide proof that you or any military member is being "forced" to attend.

LogDog
04-28-2019, 02:23 AM
That link is for people to volunteer to march; hardly the forcing you are describing.
But in garhkal's world, being asked is the same as being forced.

SeaLawyer
04-29-2019, 10:48 AM
Don't tell FLAPS that or he claim you can only be one; a sperm donor or a wet nurse. Perhaps you're a monogender-asexual Sontaran, from Dr. Who, who can genetically altered himself to have mammary glands but even then you only reproduce by cloning so being able to produce sperm isn't necessary. But on the other hand, you'd look like "a talking baked potato."


HAaaa! You are killing me Logdog!!! LMAO!!!