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Bos Mutus
01-09-2019, 04:42 PM
What the hell, man?
Heathens hold religious services rooted in Norse paganism aboard aircraft carrier


Heathenry is experiencing a resurgence.The polytheistic religion, one that traces its origin to Norse myths that tell of the universe’s creation and prophesy its destructive end, was at one time stifled following the end of the Viking Age and the subsequent spread of Christianity.One such collections of myths, “The Prose Edda” — authored by Icelandic historian, poet and politician Snorri Sturluson sometime around the year 1220 — provides much of what the modern world knows about Norse mythology: Yggdrasil, Asgard and the Aesir, a tribe of gods and goddesses with familiar names like Odin, Thor, Loki, Frigg and Idun.Now, nearly 800 years after Sturluson’s “Edda,” a small group of sailors aboard the aircraft carrier John C. Stennis has adopted these deities as the pillars of their religion, according to a Navy release.The chapel onboard Stennis is where Aviation Electrician’s Mate 2nd Class Joshua Wood, a once-Roman Catholic sailor from Eagle River, Alaska, fills the duties of Heathenry lay leader, a position of religious leadership that must be appointed by a unit’s commanding officer.As the most senior practitioner of Heathenry — he has been observant for five years now — Wood is tasked with leading a small group of sailors devoted to the Norse gods and goddesses in weekly services that are even advertised on the ship’s one-main circuit. ‘OPENED MY EYES’Wood was just in high school when he enrolled in a mythology class that he says “opened my eyes to the Nordic Gods."From there, he examined the famous Eddas, like Sturluson’s, to learn more, eventually coming to the realization that he identified with the polytheistic faith in a way he never had with Catholicism

....


And in 2013, the image of Mjölnir, commonly known as the Hammer of Thor, was added to the list of symbols that can be used on veteran headstones, such as those at Arlington National Cemetery.Such strides of religious freedoms should help dispel outlandish myths like those disputed by Shaikoski.“Heathenry is a religion of peace and community,” he said. “[It] helped me connect with people on the ship that I would have just passed by.”readmore: https://www.navytimes.com/off-duty/military-culture/2019/01/07/heathens-hold-religious-services-rooted-in-norse-paganism-aboard-aircraft-carrier/

Okay, I get maybe you can bond with people and feel welcomed and commit to peace and all that..But, is this a genuine and sincer faith in Nordic gods? Can people really still believe in that stuff? Or is this just trying to 'be cool and interesting' and stand out from the crowd in a hipster way, etc?

AF sgt
01-09-2019, 04:49 PM
What the hell, man?Okay, I get maybe you can bond with people and feel welcomed and commit to peace and all that..But, is this a genuine and sincer faith in Nordic gods? Can people really still believe in that stuff? Or is this just trying to 'be cool and interesting' and stand out from the crowd in a hipster way, etc?

As much as there are Wiccan's, etc. It all started with people "protesting" traditional Christian celebrations in the military, and creating something to "worship" in a way to dare leaders to put a stop to it. Of course, common sense plays no part in "equality". You may be familiar with it, but look up the Spaghetti Monster crap, that is actually recognized as a religion.

Bos Mutus
01-09-2019, 04:58 PM
As much as there are Wiccan's, etc. It all started with people "protesting" traditional Christian celebrations in the military, and creating something to "worship" in a way to dare leaders to put a stop to it. Of course, common sense plays no part in "equality". You may be familiar with it, but look up the Spaghetti Monster crap, that is actually recognized as a religion.

I'm familiar with the Spaghetti Monster, and yes, that is more of a parody of religion and mocking the religious. It is not a sincerely held belief of anyone, of course.

I'm don't think these heathens are necessarily mocking or parodying religion...sounds like they enjoy it, are interested in its many layers, and have a sense of community etc. I just find it hard to believe that anyone has a sincere faith in Thor or whatever...

AF sgt
01-09-2019, 05:03 PM
I just find it hard to believe that anyone has a sincere faith in Thor or whatever...Agree. Unless they are honestly Nordic through many generations (as Native American's are with their gods) then the sincerity is very questionable.

LogDog
01-09-2019, 06:31 PM
What the hell, man?

Okay, I get maybe you can bond with people and feel welcomed and commit to peace and all that..But, is this a genuine and sincer faith in Nordic gods? Can people really still believe in that stuff? Or is this just trying to 'be cool and interesting' and stand out from the crowd in a hipster way, etc?
The question of believing in "that stuff" can be applied to any religion. The idea of an omniscient being be responsible for the creation of the Earth and the universe as well has having a "plan" for each and everyone is as believable as Nordic or Greek Gods.

LogDog
01-09-2019, 06:35 PM
Agree. Unless they are honestly Nordic through many generations (as Native American's are with their gods) then the sincerity is very questionable.
People can convert to Judaism so does that mean if there aren't many generations of the ancestors being Jewish is the person converting sincerity questionable? How about people converting to Islam, Hindu, Buddhism, Catholicism, or and other religion or sect of religion?

Why must ancestry be used as a standard for their sincerity?

AF sgt
01-09-2019, 07:00 PM
People can convert to Judaism so does that mean if there aren't many generations of the ancestors being Jewish is the person converting sincerity questionable? How about people converting to Islam, Hindu, Buddhism, Catholicism, or and other religion or sect of religion?

Why must ancestry be used as a standard for their sincerity?

If you believe for a second that the people discussed aboard the carrier are "worshipping" for any other reason than to get attention , challenge the "system" and be contrary to the mainstream, then the only sincerity that should be questioned is yours.

LogDog
01-09-2019, 07:34 PM
If you believe for a second that the people discussed aboard the carrier are "worshipping" for any other reason than to get attention , challenge the "system" and be contrary to the mainstream, then the only sincerity that should be questioned is yours.
I see you don't want to answer my question.

How do you know the reason is to "...get attention , challenge the "system" and be contrary to the mainstream,...?" Do you have some omniscient power that let's you look into their hearts/minds? What you're stating is an opinion; nothing more, nothing less. Doesn't mean you're right or wrong but it's just your opinion. An opinion that lacks any facts to back-up that opinion.

Now, how about answering the question I put to you earlier.

AF sgt
01-09-2019, 07:49 PM
Now, how about answering the question I put to you earlier. Ask a legitimate question.

LogDog
01-09-2019, 08:13 PM
Ask a legitimate question.

I did ask a legitimate question. Here's what you posted in post #4 on this thread.

"Unless they are honestly Nordic through many generations (as Native American's are with their gods) then the sincerity is very questionable."


I legitimate question I asked of you is "Why must ancestry be used as a standard for their sincerity?" in post #6.


So your answer to my legitimate question is...?

Bos Mutus
01-09-2019, 08:32 PM
The question of believing in "that stuff" can be applied to any religion. The idea of an omniscient being be responsible for the creation of the Earth and the universe as well has having a "plan" for each and everyone is as believable as Nordic or Greek Gods.

True...when you take a step back and look at the picture, people worshiping God today are no different than people worshiping different God's hundreds of years ago. I don't disagree with that.

But because of family, cultural immersion, etc...I do think, it is a lot more likely that a person develop a sincere and genuine faith if they've been brought up in it or something closely resembling it...or that the faith has been legitimized culturally with a large number of people, etc.

To just kind of find a religion in a book and decide 'to believe in it'...just seems like a bit more of a stretch to me. That's not to say that the one god is any less or more legitimate in fact...but the faith in it. Just because someone has a sincere and honest faith, does not mean that which they have faith in is more legitimate than another.

LogDog
01-09-2019, 09:15 PM
True...when you take a step back and look at the picture, people worshiping God today are no different than people worshiping different God's hundreds of years ago. I don't disagree with that.
We still kill over religion but fortunately, the killing over religion isn't as bad as it was hundreds of years ago.


But because of family, cultural immersion, etc...I do think, it is a lot more likely that a person develop a sincere and genuine faith if they've been brought up in it or something closely resembling it...or that the faith has been legitimized culturally with a large number of people, etc.
A person's environmental (familial, cultural, socialization,etc.) factors play a big role in a person's religious beliefs. For some, that's not enough to provide support to the spiritual nature of an individual. When this happens people start looking at other religions to fill their need(s). If they are exposed to other religions and they explore it through books dealing with a particular religion and they find their need(s) filled by another religion they can develop a sincere and genuine faith in that religion. To do this takes an action that shakes the beliefs they were brought up in. If someone wants to do that then I have no problem with it.


To just kind of find a religion in a book and decide 'to believe in it'...just seems like a bit more of a stretch to me. That's not to say that the one god is any less or more legitimate in fact...but the faith in it. Just because someone has a sincere and honest faith, does not mean that which they have faith in is more legitimate than another.
Christians push their religion by demanding Non-Christians to read and study their book, The Bible. Jehovah Witnesses peddle their religion door-to-door handing out literature. Scientology adherents use their book Dianetics to introduce people to their religion. So if a person reads a book on a particular religion and they like what they read and decide to convert to that religion, is their sincere and genuine faith any less than those of another religion?

Mjölnir
01-09-2019, 09:53 PM
YAAASSSS!!!!!!!

http://media.giphy.com/media/fzZaLJjnNscKs/giphy.gif

AF sgt
01-10-2019, 03:04 AM
I did ask a legitimate question. Here's what you posted in post #4 on this thread.

"Unless they are honestly Nordic through many generations (as Native American's are with their gods) then the sincerity is very questionable."


I legitimate question I asked of you is "Why must ancestry be used as a standard for their sincerity?" in post #6.


So your answer to my legitimate question is...?

No. You asked a question, but it's not legitimate because you already know the difference between a bunch of guys on a boat worshipping the "authentic" Thor and other's worshipping established religions. But you can keep trying if you like.

AF sgt
01-10-2019, 03:07 AM
Christians push their religion by demanding Non-Christians to read and study their book, The Bible. Jehovah Witnesses peddle their religion door-to-door handing out literature. Scientology adherents use their book Dianetics to introduce people to their religion. So if a person reads a book on a particular religion and they like what they read and decide to convert to that religion, is their sincere and genuine faith any less than those of another religion?

Jehovah's Witnesses do not classify themselves as Christian. Neither do Mormons. I can't think of any other religions that go door to door. And neither JW's or Mormons demand you read/study their book. They ask you to, but if you simply say "no thanks, I'm not interested" they'll gladly move to the next house.

LogDog
01-10-2019, 06:20 AM
No. You asked a question, but it's not legitimate because you already know the difference between a bunch of guys on a boat worshipping the "authentic" Thor and other's worshipping established religions. But you can keep trying if you like.

You have failed to provide any evidence that their worshiping isn't "authentic" other than your uninformed opinion. It's also obvious when confronted with a question you can't or won't answer you run away which also tell me how insincere your are.

LogDog
01-10-2019, 06:25 AM
Jehovah's Witnesses do not classify themselves as Christian. Neither do Mormons. I can't think of any other religions that go door to door. And neither JW's or Mormons demand you read/study their book. They ask you to, but if you simply say "no thanks, I'm not interested" they'll gladly move to the next house.
The point I was trying to make is religions tend to promote/convert others to their religion through books/literature. So someone who might have heard of a religion would naturally get an introduction to the religion by reading about it. It doesn't matter if it's Christians, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, or any other religion because they basically all follow the same playbook.

Mjölnir
01-10-2019, 12:18 PM
Jehovah's Witnesses do not classify themselves as Christian. Neither do Mormons. I can't think of any other religions that go door to door. And neither JW's or Mormons demand you read/study their book. They ask you to, but if you simply say "no thanks, I'm not interested" they'll gladly move to the next house.

I have been LDS / Mormon for 23 years. We definitely consider ourselves Christian ... it’s even in the name: Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

Bos Mutus
01-10-2019, 01:48 PM
We still kill over religion but fortunately, the killing over religion isn't as bad as it was hundreds of years ago.

A person's environmental (familial, cultural, socialization,etc.) factors play a big role in a person's religious beliefs. For some, that's not enough to provide support to the spiritual nature of an individual. When this happens people start looking at other religions to fill their need(s). If they are exposed to other religions and they explore it through books dealing with a particular religion and they find their need(s) filled by another religion they can develop a sincere and genuine faith in that religion. To do this takes an action that shakes the beliefs they were brought up in. If someone wants to do that then I have no problem with it.

Yeah, I'm not saying I have 'a problem with it'...I'm just curious if these folks genuinely believe in Thor, or it's just kind of a hip thing in their minds to be contrarian and all that...I mean, if that's what they wanna spend their time doing, knock yourself out. I'm more curious than critical of it.


Christians push their religion by demanding Non-Christians to read and study their book, The Bible. Jehovah Witnesses peddle their religion door-to-door handing out literature. Scientology adherents use their book Dianetics to introduce people to their religion. So if a person reads a book on a particular religion and they like what they read and decide to convert to that religion, is their sincere and genuine faith any less than those of another religion?

If it is sincere and genuine, then no, it's not any less. If it's just a hipster social club that enjoys reading and discussing Nordic gods...then, that's fine, but I"m not sure it should get the same deference afforded to religious groups. We could argue whether religious groups deserve that deference, also...but, for this topic, my question is more whether this is a legitimate religious group or more of a social group. Not that I have a problem with either one, but my uniformed opinion is that I find it hard to believe it is a genuine and sincere religious faith. Admittedly, this is my opinion and it is uninformed...that's why I"m asking.

It's true that we won't be able to tell definitively if someone's faith is genuine or not, a lot of practicing Christians' faith is not sincere also....so, not much we can do about it if they claim they are true believers that Thor is up there doing whatever it is he does.

AF sgt
01-10-2019, 02:56 PM
It's also obvious when confronted with a question you can't or won't answer you run away which also tell me how insincere your are. OH...Ouch...personal attacks!!!! Moderator!!!! What are we 12?

AF sgt
01-10-2019, 03:02 PM
I have been LDS / Mormon for 23 years. We definitely consider ourselves Christian ... it’s even in the name: Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

My mistake...have just been told by otherwise by former LDS coworker. When asked if Mormons were Christian, he'd always say "sort of".

AF sgt
01-10-2019, 03:08 PM
Yeah, I'm not saying I have 'a problem with it'...I'm just curious if these folks genuinely believe in Thor, or it's just kind of a hip thing in their minds to be contrarian and all that...I mean, if that's what they wanna spend their time doing, knock yourself out. I'm more curious than critical of it.



If it is sincere and genuine, then no, it's not any less. If it's just a hipster social club that enjoys reading and discussing Nordic gods...then, that's fine, but I"m not sure it should get the same deference afforded to religious groups. We could argue whether religious groups deserve that deference, also...but, for this topic, my question is more whether this is a legitimate religious group or more of a social group. Not that I have a problem with either one, but my uniformed opinion is that I find it hard to believe it is a genuine and sincere religious faith. Admittedly, this is my opinion and it is uninformed...that's why I"m asking.

It's true that we won't be able to tell definitively if someone's faith is genuine or not, a lot of practicing Christians' faith is not sincere also....so, not much we can do about it if they claim they are true believers that Thor is up there doing whatever it is he does.

Nordic "religion" has had a comeback over the past couple years. A big factor in that is the History (Biography?) channel show "Vikings". Great show, IMO. When they come out with a hit TV show about the ancient Romans, you'll see people start "worshipping" Zeus.

Bos Mutus
01-10-2019, 05:41 PM
Nordic "religion" has had a comeback over the past couple years. A big factor in that is the History (Biography?) channel show "Vikings". Great show, IMO. When they come out with a hit TV show about the ancient Romans, you'll see people start "worshipping" Zeus.

Okay, so maybe this is more to the point. The ancient Romans used gods to describe natural phenomenon that we now know more about through science. So, it would be a bit of a stretch to find someone that has a genuine faith that a lightening storm is Zeus throwing around some magic, etc. You know what I mean...we have science now. So, I get that someone can be interested in Roman gods and study it...have groups to talk about it if you want....but I'd find it a bit of a stretch if they'd say they have a genuine and sincere faith that the ancient Romans had it right all the time and all of these things really are controlled by the gods.

I don't know if Nordic gods are like that...don't know much about ol Thor, it's never been an interest of mine.

Kind of like this Flat Earth Society thing on the internet. I'd think that 99% of its members don't actually believe the earth is flat, they just think it's cool to be contrarian and show they are above and immune to societal groupthink that leads all of us lowly lemmings astray as we are controlled by the MSM...or they are just flat out trolls

AF sgt
01-10-2019, 06:08 PM
Okay, so maybe this is more to the point. The ancient Romans used gods to describe natural phenomenon that we now know more about through science. So, it would be a bit of a stretch to find someone that has a genuine faith that a lightening storm is Zeus throwing around some magic, etc. You know what I mean...we have science now. So, I get that someone can be interested in Roman gods and study it...have groups to talk about it if you want....but I'd find it a bit of a stretch if they'd say they have a genuine and sincere faith that the ancient Romans had it right all the time and all of these things really are controlled by the gods.

I don't know if Nordic gods are like that...don't know much about ol Thor, it's never been an interest of mine.

Kind of like this Flat Earth Society thing on the internet. I'd think that 99% of its members don't actually believe the earth is flat, they just think it's cool to be contrarian and show they are above and immune to societal groupthink that leads all of us lowly lemmings astray as we are controlled by the MSM...or they are just flat out trolls

Yeah, the Nordic Gods/Greek Gods are almost identical (with different names. I mistakenly put that Zeus was Roman. My mistake.So Nordic Thor/God of Thunder-Greek Zeus/God of Thunder-Romans had similar.

As far as flat earther's, you're absolutely right.

I'd be willing to bet that the Nordic God people in question are a bunch of the millenial sailors trying to find different ways to push buttons.

LogDog
01-10-2019, 06:09 PM
Yeah, I'm not saying I have 'a problem with it'...I'm just curious if these folks genuinely believe in Thor, or it's just kind of a hip thing in their minds to be contrarian and all that...I mean, if that's what they wanna spend their time doing, knock yourself out. I'm more curious than critical of it.
The DoD recognizes Heathen as a faith and belief organization as well as over 100 other organizations so if a group of Heathens want to be treated other recognized groups then I see no problem with it.
http://americanhumanist.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Faith-and-Belief-Codes-for-Reporting-Personnel-Data-of-Service-Members.pdf



If it is sincere and genuine, then no, it's not any less. If it's just a hipster social club that enjoys reading and discussing Nordic gods...then, that's fine, but I"m not sure it should get the same deference afforded to religious groups. We could argue whether religious groups deserve that deference, also...but, for this topic, my question is more whether this is a legitimate religious group or more of a social group. Not that I have a problem with either one, but my uniformed opinion is that I find it hard to believe it is a genuine and sincere religious faith. Admittedly, this is my opinion and it is uninformed...that's why I"m asking.

It's true that we won't be able to tell definitively if someone's faith is genuine or not, a lot of practicing Christians' faith is not sincere also....so, not much we can do about it if they claim they are true believers that Thor is up there doing whatever it is he does.
Actions speak louder than words. There will always be people using some type of religious excuse to get out of work.

LogDog
01-10-2019, 06:10 PM
OH...Ouch...personal attacks!!!! Moderator!!!! What are we 12?
Not a personal attack but a valid observation.

AF sgt
01-10-2019, 06:12 PM
Not a personal attack but a valid observation. The reason I'm not going to answer is because I'm giving you credit for being smart enough to recognize the difference, without falling into the internet forum trap of someone trying to catch me in a self contradiction.

AF sgt
01-10-2019, 06:24 PM
The DoD recognizes Heathen as a faith and belief organization as well as over 100 other organizations so if a group of Heathens want to be treated other recognized groups then I see no problem with it.
http://americanhumanist.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Faith-and-Belief-Codes-for-Reporting-Personnel-Data-of-Service-Members.pdf



They recognize it because they are too scared to put common sense before political correctness.

meatbringer
01-10-2019, 08:24 PM
I never thought that Christians actually believed in any of that nonsense of Jesus, virgins having babies, talking burning bushes, Noah's ark, living in a whale, etc...

I always just figured that they used it all as an excuse to be condescending, hate gays, and to oppress women and people of a different skin color.;);););)

AF sgt
01-10-2019, 08:38 PM
I never thought that Christians actually believed in any of that nonsense of Jesus, virgins having babies, talking burning bushes, Noah's ark, living in a whale, etc...Don't forget. Jews also believe in those things. Muslims believe in some of those things.


I always just figured that they used it all as an excuse to be condescending, hate gays, and to oppress women and people of a different skin color.;);););) 'Cuz there's only white Christians.

If I didn't know better, I'd say that obvious trolling is obvious.

meatbringer
01-12-2019, 05:49 AM
Don't forget. Jews also believe in those things. Muslims believe in some of those things.

'Cuz there's only white Christians.

If I didn't know better, I'd say that obvious trolling is obvious.

Yup. I was making a point by rephrasing previous statements that were geared toward other religions. I'm clever like that.

AF sgt
01-12-2019, 10:29 PM
Deleted

I can tell by your previous post that you are definitely the voice of reason around here, 'nomsayin?

Rainmaker
01-13-2019, 08:14 PM
I can tell by your previous post that you are definitely the voice of reason around here, 'nomsayin?

As you can see, Rainmaker's non opinionated post was immediately memory-holed (Proving the point). See on MTF Christ- bashing is allowed (If not encouraged). But, the mere mention of the aforementioned group, brings an immediate rebuke.
" To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you're not allowed to criticize"...

AF sgt
01-13-2019, 08:26 PM
As you can see, Rainmaker's non opinionated post was immediately memory-holed (Proving the point). See on MTF Christ- bashing is allowed (If not encouraged). But, the mere mention of the aforementioned group, brings an immediate rebuke.
" To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you're not allowed to criticize"...

Holy crap. That post, though slightly sarcastic and obviously with some history, was pretty vanilla. And it's gone? Guess I better mind my Ps and Qs.

retiredAFcivvy
01-14-2019, 06:37 PM
It all started with people "protesting" traditional Christian celebrations in the military,

Yeah, you can thank Mikey Weinstein for that. Thankfully, there have been some Generals who have ignored his threats.

retiredAFcivvy
01-15-2019, 07:45 PM
I can tell by your previous post that you are definitely the voice of reason around here, 'nomsayin?

I don't necessarily agree with everything Rainy posts but your observation is correct.

AF sgt
01-15-2019, 07:49 PM
I don't necessarily agree with everything Rainy posts but your observation is correct. I'm hoping you sense at least a little bit of my sarcasm.