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View Full Version : BYU USAF ROTC may move over coffee



Mjölnir
01-30-2017, 01:50 PM
http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/4871773-155/rotc-may-move-from-byu-to

Brigham Young University requires all faculty, staff and students to sign an honor code which covers a multitude of things to include abstaining from coffee (even when not on campus). ROTC staff is considered faculty & staf fso they have to sign their honor code as well. The Air Force ROTC CO said he'd refrain from drinking coffee on campus but that he'd have coffee in his own home and wouldn't sign the honor code unless it allowed him to do so. BYU refused to allow such an amendment to their honor code.

What I got from reading the article is that as a result of BYU not certifying the Col as faculty (due to not agreeing to the schools honor code) the USAF is considering moving the unit from being located at BYU (Provo UT) to UVU (Orem UT) ... a distance of about 3 miles.

Currently the USAF ROTC unit has an agreement that includes students at UVU to participate in the ROTC program under the BYU Program / staff, this would flip that to UVU being the 'HQ', BYU being the 'det' (even though BYU has the larger proportion of ROTC cadets UVU has <30 and BYU has >120).

So, BYU may loose the program, but the students can still participate in the program. There are multiple universities that are in close proximity that share one ROTC program ... University of Idaho and Washington State come to mind, another is mentioned in the article.

sandsjames
01-30-2017, 03:11 PM
http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/4871773-155/rotc-may-move-from-byu-to

Brigham Young University requires all faculty, staff and students to sign an honor code which covers a multitude of things to include abstaining from coffee (even when not on campus). ROTC staff is considered faculty & staf fso they have to sign their honor code as well. The Air Force ROTC CO said he'd refrain from drinking coffee on campus but that he'd have coffee in his own home and wouldn't sign the honor code unless it allowed him to do so. BYU refused to allow such an amendment to their honor code.

What I got from reading the article is that as a result of BYU not certifying the Col as faculty (due to not agreeing to the schools honor code) the USAF is considering moving the unit from being located at BYU (Provo UT) to UVU (Orem UT) ... a distance of about 3 miles.

Currently the USAF ROTC unit has an agreement that includes students at UVU to participate in the ROTC program under the BYU Program / staff, this would flip that to UVU being the 'HQ', BYU being the 'det' (even though BYU has the larger proportion of ROTC cadets UVU has <30 and BYU has >120).

So, BYU may loose the program, but the students can still participate in the program. There are multiple universities that are in close proximity that share one ROTC program ... University of Idaho and Washington State come to mind, another is mentioned in the article.


Uhhhhhhh.....ok.

Bos Mutus
01-30-2017, 03:27 PM
Interesting...

The ROTC CO is an active duty assignment, correct?

Is it unreasonable to require someone to refrain from drinking coffee?

Maybe...though we have rules about refraining from alcohol at some locations...but, seems like this should have been a screen-out element prior to assignment selection. "Are you willing to adhere to the BYU honor code which includes abstaining from caffeine?" Any "No" answer is disqualifying.

But...the heck with them...I say go ahead and move it.

Mjölnir
01-30-2017, 03:54 PM
Interesting...

The ROTC CO is an active duty assignment, correct?

Is it unreasonable to require someone to refrain from drinking coffee?

Maybe...though we have rules about refraining from alcohol at some locations...but, seems like this should have been a screen-out element prior to assignment selection. "Are you willing to adhere to the BYU honor code which includes abstaining from caffeine?" Any "No" answer is disqualifying.

But...the heck with them...I say go ahead and move it.

My wife and I are LDS "light" ... we drink soda and swear.

The "no-coffee, no tea" thing doesn't really have to do with caffeine.

When the church was founded, it as essentially pioneer times, you made things yourself. Think back to your Boy Scout camp days working on your Leatherworking merit badge, you spread things on leather to color / tan it. Things like coffee, tea, ... also urine and feces. The early Mormons equated that whatever must make coffee and tea tan leather must also be present in pee and poo ... they were right ... tannins/tannic acid. This prohibition was later incorporated into Section 89 of the church's Doctrine and Covenants as "hot drinks".


Section 89
1–9, The use of wine, strong drinks, tobacco, and hot drinks is proscribed; 10–17, Herbs, fruits, flesh, and grain are ordained for the use of man and of animals; 18–21, Obedience to gospel law, including the Word of Wisdom, brings temporal and spiritual blessings.


Many modern Mormons (usually those born and raised in the Church) will just accept that it is caffeine and soda is also prohibited, it isn't. The previous President of the Church once said in an interview that Mormons avoid caffeine, many do ... in part because they consider it a mind altering drug, many because they don't know the history behind Section 89. Case in point, go to and LDS pot luck ... there will be chocolate cake or pudding (right next to the jello with fruit in it) and there is a fair amount of caffeine in chocolate.

Does requiring the Col at the ROTC unit to comply with the LDS Church's dietary restriction as required of all faculty at BYU constitute a religious test which is prohibited buy Section VI article 3 of the Constitution? It may.

Whether or not the Col knew about the requirement before he took the orders isn't really known (publically). I doubt every predecessor or member of the ROTC staff has adhered to it, they likely just signed the Honor Code agreement and went about their day. For the Col specifically it could be one of a few things:

1. Col was not aware of the policy at all when he accepted orders.
2. Col was not aware that the policy applied at all times vice "at work".
3. Col knew about the policy, thought he could make it work and something changed.
4. Col knew about the policy, decided to take the orders and make a point later. (not likely ...but possible)

Bos Mutus
01-30-2017, 05:20 PM
My wife and I are LDS "light" ... we drink soda and swear.

The "no-coffee, no tea" thing doesn't really have to do with caffeine.

When the church was founded, it as essentially pioneer times, you made things yourself. Think back to your Boy Scout camp days working on your Leatherworking merit badge, you spread things on leather to color / tan it. Things like coffee, tea, ... also urine and feces. The early Mormons equated that whatever must make coffee and tea tan leather must also be present in pee and poo ... they were right ... tannins/tannic acid. This prohibition was later incorporated into Section 89 of the church's Doctrine and Covenants as "hot drinks".


Many modern Mormons (usually those born and raised in the Church) will just accept that it is caffeine and soda is also prohibited, it isn't. The previous President of the Church once said in an interview that Mormons avoid caffeine, many do ... in part because they consider it a mind altering drug, many because they don't know the history behind Section 89. Case in point, go to and LDS pot luck ... there will be chocolate cake or pudding (right next to the jello with fruit in it) and there is a fair amount of caffeine in chocolate.


Ahhhhh...interesting....I always thought it was a ban on caffeine.



Does requiring the Col at the ROTC unit to comply with the LDS Church's dietary restriction as required of all faculty at BYU constitute a religious test which is prohibited buy Section VI article 3 of the Constitution? It may.

Good question. I think we can assume that the CO is not required to be Mormon?...but is only expected to follow certain restrictions on conduct.


Whether or not the Col knew about the requirement before he took the orders isn't really known (publically). I doubt every predecessor or member of the ROTC staff has adhered to it, they likely just signed the Honor Code agreement and went about their day. For the Col specifically it could be one of a few things:

1. Col was not aware of the policy at all when he accepted orders.
2. Col was not aware that the policy applied at all times vice "at work".
3. Col knew about the policy, thought he could make it work and something changed.
4. Col knew about the policy, decided to take the orders and make a point later. (not likely ...but possible)

Right...but, I think we can say this code is very unusual for a military assignment...therefore the unique requirement should have been cleared up before the assignment was finalized.

Mjölnir
01-30-2017, 05:34 PM
Ahhhhh...interesting....I always thought it was a ban on caffeine.

Most do, I did until I looked into joinin gthe church. My wife (was born into an LDS family) thought it was about caffeine and when I told her it wasn't she asked her dad (lifetime member) was like "nah ... he's right".


Good question. I think we can assume that the CO is not required to be Mormon?...but is only expected to follow certain restrictions on conduct.

Probably can't be required to be Mormon, would be a religious test which isn't allowed (outside of legit clergy/chaplains).



Right...but, I think we can say this code is very unusual for a military assignment...therefore the unique requirement should have been cleared up before the assignment was finalized.

Which makes me wonder what was conveyed to him. BYU has had a USAF ROTC for decades ... the requirement for the honor code has been there for decades -- I would imagine some/most/all folks pencil whipped it ... not thinking twice about it. Bigger picture is that the USAF should probably have had something in the MOU with BYU that exempted the staff from that requirement.

Bos Mutus
01-30-2017, 05:47 PM
Most do, I did until I looked into joinin gthe church. My wife (was born into an LDS family) thought it was about caffeine and when I told her it wasn't she asked her dad (lifetime member) was like "nah ... he's right".

At the risk of derailing the thread...

Did you come to the Mormon Church on your own...or to join your wife/required to be married, etc.?

If it's the first, then okay, sure...if it's the second, I've always wondered how someone could be, "Hey, this is what I believe...but, I will change and start believing this."....seems odd to me how someone can do that.

I get it if it's like two similar closely related denominations where the doctrine is basically the same just some of the practices/procedures are different...but when it's a fairly big belief change...i.e. I've seen people covert to Judaism or Christianity or vice versa...or protestant/catholic because they needed to in order to get married or because it was a big issue for one family or the other, etc...but, I don't really get how someone can change what they actually believe that way.

Like I said...if it was a personal conversion, that's different.

Rainmaker
01-30-2017, 06:14 PM
At the risk of derailing the thread...

Did you come to the Mormon Church on your own...or to join your wife/required to be married, etc.?

If it's the first, then okay, sure...if it's the second, I've always wondered how someone could be, "Hey, this is what I believe...but, I will change and start believing this."....seems odd to me how someone can do that.

I get it if it's like two similar closely related denominations where the doctrine is basically the same just some of the practices/procedures are different...but when it's a fairly big belief change...i.e. I've seen people covert to Judaism or Christianity or vice versa...or protestant/catholic because they needed to in order to get married or because it was a big issue for one family or the other, etc...but, I don't really get how someone can change what they actually believe that way.

Like I said...if it was a personal conversion, that's different.

The Mormon Mafia's recruiting network is deeply imbedded within the US Military & intelligence agencies......

IMO their core value system (with its emphasis on self-reliance, volunteerism, industriousness and pious law-abiding nature).... is what makes them a natural fit for success in the IC.

They can be very very convincing. Back when Rainmaker left the Catholics, He seriously considered joining up with the LDS himself....... But, didn't want to give up the cinnamon Nicorette gum.

Mjölnir
01-30-2017, 06:39 PM
At the risk of derailing the thread...

Did you come to the Mormon Church on your own...or to join your wife/required to be married, etc.?

I converted 5 years before I met my wife ... and not for a different Mormon girl but a bona fide desire to change my life.


If it's the first, then okay, sure...if it's the second, I've always wondered how someone could be, "Hey, this is what I believe...but, I will change and start believing this."....seems odd to me how someone can do that.

I get it if it's like two similar closely related denominations where the doctrine is basically the same just some of the practices/procedures are different...but when it's a fairly big belief change...i.e. I've seen people covert to Judaism or Christianity or vice versa...or protestant/catholic because they needed to in order to get married or because it was a big issue for one family or the other, etc...but, I don't really get how someone can change what they actually believe that way.

Like I said...if it was a personal conversion, that's different.

I know many guys who have converted because of a girl, and a few girls that converted for a guy. Mormons recognize civil marriage, but a temple marriage is considered to not end "when death do you part", to be married in the temple you have to be a church member in good standing. Many born and raised Mormons (and coverts alike) want the temple marriage.

Bos Mutus
01-30-2017, 07:07 PM
IMO their core value system (with its emphasis on self-reliance, volunteerism, industriousness and pious law-abiding nature).... is what makes them a natural fit for success in the IC..

I remember years ago AFN used to have Public Service Announcements that were sponsored by the Mormon Church...

They were all good stuff, about family and community and stuff that anybody would agree with...some good perspectives and positive messages. At the end they would just say, "This public service announcement was brought to you by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints."

I've known a fair amount of Mormon's...can't recall any of them ever trying to convert me.

garhkal
01-30-2017, 08:00 PM
Interesting...

The ROTC CO is an active duty assignment, correct?

Is it unreasonable to require someone to refrain from drinking coffee?

Maybe...though we have rules about refraining from alcohol at some locations...but, seems like this should have been a screen-out element prior to assignment selection. "Are you willing to adhere to the BYU honor code which includes abstaining from caffeine?" Any "No" answer is disqualifying.

But...the heck with them...I say go ahead and move it.

I can agree, an Honor code is a good idea, as long as all adhere to it. BUT no caffine? And one can't have it when NOT at ROTC? Fut the whuk..

I mean it would be like say Walmart telling its employees "To be healthier, there will be no use of Tobaaco products. NOT EVEN WHEN YOU are off shift and sitting at home".. To me that would be illegal of them do make that sort of rule.
SURE i can understand them doing so when AT WORK, but not when off shift...

sandsjames
01-30-2017, 08:58 PM
I've known a fair amount of Mormon's...can't recall any of them ever trying to convert me.Even the ones who knock at your door and you assume they are Jehovas Witnesses.

sandsjames
01-30-2017, 09:03 PM
I mean it would be like say Walmart telling its employees "To be healthier, there will be no use of Tobaaco products. NOT EVEN WHEN YOU are off shift and sitting at home".. To me that would be illegal of them do make that sort of rule.
SURE i can understand them doing so when AT WORK, but not when off shift...

This happens. Not at Walmart but there are several companies that do have the requirement (even away from work).

Bos Mutus
01-30-2017, 09:12 PM
Even the ones who knock at your door and you assume they are Jehovas Witnesses.

I don't know if any of those were Mormon...I don't really get them often...I can remember one time in the last 5 years that I've been in my current house...they didn't really stay and chat long, they were just kinda like...oh something about salvation, here is a pamphlet. Maybe they were put off cuz I was sitting on my front porch drinking whiskey and smoking a cigar.

Mjölnir
01-31-2017, 10:17 AM
They can be very very convincing. Back when Rainmaker left the Catholics, He seriously considered joining up with the LDS himself....... But, didn't want to give up the cinnamon Nicorette gum.

Cinnamon Nicorette gum is not verboten ... will send a couple of industrious missionaries to your house.

garhkal
01-31-2017, 06:46 PM
This happens. Not at Walmart but there are several companies that do have the requirement (even away from work).

I was using walmart as an example. AND yes i know several companies (CVS) have tried implementing that and have YET to get challenged on its legality..

Bos Mutus
01-31-2017, 07:08 PM
My wife and I are LDS "light" ... we drink soda and swear.




I converted 5 years before I met my wife ... and not for a different Mormon girl but a bona fide desire to change my life.

Were you always LDS-Lite or were you heavy at one point?

I'm just curious...usually when people go through the conversion deal...they do so with a great deal of commitment and zeal...at least initially, then may mellow over time, I reckon.

Rainmaker
01-31-2017, 07:55 PM
usually when people go through the conversion deal...they do so with a great deal of commitment and zeal...at least initially,

Oh. You mean like when you first converted to reform atheistic judaism, changed your name from measured man to Bos Mutus & began spamming the forum with endless posts about aborted children's being nothing more than zygotes and Christ-bashing us on every other thread here, shouting down anyone who dared to disagree (with non sensicle gibberish about fig trees)?

Rainmaker
01-31-2017, 08:29 PM
Cinnamon Nicorette gum is not verboten ... will send a couple of industrious missionaries to your house.

Mormonism is truly the "Made in the USA" religion. & Raimaker personally observed the change they made in his Vicodin addicted Brother's life (after he converted).

Also, Mormans have many beautiful, fertile, blonde wimmins, that want to have lots of kids, so now that our glorious-leader has stopped the 3rd world invaders colonization of America, they may end up becoming the nation's defacto christian majority soon.

But, utimately Rainmaker chose to go with the Methodists because, John Wesley was a saint & it's in walking distance of the house. And my twins go to private-school there, so they cut a break on the tuition, if you join up. And Rainmaker generally likes keep all options open, So we'll definitely keep the Mormons in-mind.

BTW...Did Utah ever get rid of that 3.2 beer? They have all the ingredients there for a thriving micro-brew scene.

Mjölnir
02-01-2017, 12:06 AM
Were you always LDS-Lite or were you heavy at one point?

I'm just curious...usually when people go through the conversion deal...they do so with a great deal of commitment and zeal...at least initially, then may mellow over time, I reckon.

Pretty much.

Bos Mutus
02-01-2017, 03:36 PM
Oh. You mean like when you first converted to reform atheistic judaism, changed your name from measured man to Bos Mutus & began spamming the forum with endless posts about aborted children's being nothing more than zygotes and Christ-bashing us on every other thread here, shouting down anyone who dared to disagree (with non sensicle gibberish about fig trees)?

"Alternative facts" right?

Bos Mutus
02-08-2017, 05:44 PM
Oh. You mean like when you first converted to reform atheistic judaism,

Very dishonest. I never did that. What a liar. Pathetic.



changed your name from measured man to Bos Mutus & began spamming the forum with endless posts about aborted children's being nothing more than zygotes and Christ-bashing us on every other thread here

Name change was administrative due to password/email probls. No one loves Jesus more than me. More lies from Rainman. What an embarrassment.


, shouting down anyone who dared to disagree (with non sensicle gibberish about fig trees)?

The boy can not stop lying. I've never posted of fig trees. He's pathological!

sandsjames
02-08-2017, 06:34 PM
Very dishonest. I never did that. What a liar. Pathetic.




Name change was administrative due to password/email probls. No one loves Jesus more than me. More lies from Rainman. What an embarrassment.



The boy can not stop lying. I've never posted of fig trees. He's pathological!

If anything, it seemed to me that you seemed much more open about religion and Christianity after returning to the forum.

Bos Mutus
02-08-2017, 10:50 PM
If anything, it seemed to me that you seemed much more open about religion and Christianity after returning to the forum.

I would say...one thing I've learned...is that the more you learn, think about, study anything...you almost always learn that there is so much more you don't know.

I think that's true of religion, politics, science, nature, really most topics....if you learn enough about them, you realize you don't know anything.