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UncaRastus
01-07-2016, 08:06 PM
Ray Mabus is determined to have all of the Marines to be trained at the same level. I was a DI. I know that the women in the USMC can not perform as well as the men in physical training. Will this mean that the standards must be brought down to accommodate female recruits?

Marine Corps boot camp, job titles to be gender neutral by April

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/2016/01/06/marine-corps-boot-camp-job-titles-gender-neutral-april/78351756/

From the article, Marine Corps Times:

'The Marine Corps has been ordered to come up with a plan to make its enlisted entry-level training coed, and to make its job titles more gender-neutral following the recent move to open all military combat roles to women.

In a Jan. 1 memo to Marine Commandant Gen. Robert Neller, Navy Secretary Ray Mabus requested a "detailed plan" on how the service will fully integrate its boot camp and Officer Candidate School. The plan is due Jan. 15 and will be implemented by April 1, the memo states.

"The Department of the Navy's implementation plan must include gender integration of Marine Corps enlisted recruit training and officer candidate school," Mabus wrote. "In this submission, identify where, if anywhere, this training is already integrated, where it is separate, and specific steps that you will take to fully integrate these trainings."

In a second memo from Mabus to Neller on the same day, the SecNav directed the Marine Corps to conduct a full review of its military occupational specialty titles in an effort to ensure that they are gender neutral.'

Mjölnir
01-07-2016, 09:05 PM
From what I understand, boot camp is to be integrated but men and women will still retain separate standards where appropriate (PFT for example). Integrated (coed) platoons won't be overly hard to manage but you will no longer have the entire platoon in the same squad bay.

I don't know if this will mean that MCRD San Diego will begin receiving female recruits and DI's or not.

Also, from the article that I see some people on social media already don't understand:


A Navy official said that the service received a similar memo pertaining to its MOS titles and descriptions. Mabus doesn't intend to require iconic titles like "infantryman," "rifleman" or "midshipman" to be changed ...

garhkal
01-07-2016, 09:22 PM
So does this mean we get that 'co-ed shower scene we saw in Starship troopers"???

Mjölnir
01-07-2016, 09:40 PM
So does this mean we get that 'co-ed shower scene we saw in Starship troopers"???

I figure one day ... way way way ... way in the future ...

Until then ... it is more likely to be something a bit more terrifying

http://i.imgur.com/SI0IdsX.jpg

Rusty Jones
01-08-2016, 12:16 AM
I figure one day ... way way way ... way in the future ...

Until then ... it is more likely to be something a bit more terrifying

http://i.imgur.com/SI0IdsX.jpg

When I was a MEPS Classifier in the Navy, the processors used to hate me for giving all of the male DEPpers a Thursday shipping date.

Why did I do it? Because females could only ship M to W, so males who shipped on Thursdays were put in all-male divisions.

That's what I believed in.

In a co-ed environment, you can only push everyone as hard as you can push the females. Furthermore... the males won't get the profanity laced sexuality explicit verbal beatdowns that they can only get when there are no females around.

Doing this to the Marine Corps is just... interesting, to say the least.

Mjölnir
01-08-2016, 04:13 PM
When I was a MEPS Classifier in the Navy, the processors used to hate me for giving all of the male DEPpers a Thursday shipping date.

Why did I do it? Because females could only ship M to W, so males who shipped on Thursdays were put in all-male divisions.

That's what I believed in.

In a co-ed environment, you can only push everyone as hard as you can push the females. Furthermore... the males won't get the profanity laced sexuality explicit verbal beatdowns that they can only get when there are no females around.

Doing this to the Marine Corps is just... interesting, to say the least.

There is legit concern that some training (group PT) may suffer; you can only run the group to build cohesion as fast as the slowest person will allow (a long time ago I had a Plt Sgt explain that group PT isn't really meant as PT improvement but esprit d'corps events.) In Boot Camp & in the FMF, most of our PT improvement training came by breaking the unit (plt, company, BN whatever) into ability groups based on previous run times and then the person leading that group pushed them a bit more than they were comfortable ... but there is little improvement in a 3 mile run at a 6 min / mile pace for someone who can't sustain that pace for more than a couple hundred yards ... and no more training value in running a 10 min mile pace for those who already run at a 7 min pace.

As far as the profanity laced sexually explicit verbal beatdowns, my boot camp platoon had 3 Drill Instructors. The most junior of the three was the 'heavy' (always the bad guy.) Come to find out near the end of recruit training that he was a hard corps Mormon ... then realizing that he never really did use profanity ... just had a penchant for being able to yell and berate minus profanity and sexual comments ... eye opener. At OCS there was also one DI that I picked up on never using profanity etc. Turns out he was born again Christian. I still graduated as a Marine, was a fairly successful one and have had a good run as an officer ... so I don't think the training is necessarily going to suffer just because folks who were already making comments that are unprofessional may now have to tighten that stuff up even more because of a coed training environment.

Rusty Jones
01-08-2016, 04:35 PM
There is legit concern that some training (group PT) may suffer; you can only run the group to build cohesion as fast as the slowest person will allow (a long time ago I had a Plt Sgt explain that group PT isn't really meant as PT improvement but esprit d'corps events.) In Boot Camp & in the FMF, most of our PT improvement training came by breaking the unit (plt, company, BN whatever) into ability groups based on previous run times and then the person leading that group pushed them a bit more than they were comfortable ... but there is little improvement in a 3 mile run at a 6 min / mile pace for someone who can't sustain that pace for more than a couple hundred yards ... and no more training value in running a 10 min mile pace for those who already run at a 7 min pace.

As far as the profanity laced sexually explicit verbal beatdowns, my boot camp platoon had 3 Drill Instructors. The most junior of the three was the 'heavy' (always the bad guy.) Come to find out near the end of recruit training that he was a hard corps Mormon ... then realizing that he never really did use profanity ... just had a penchant for being able to yell and berate minus profanity and sexual comments ... eye opener. At OCS there was also one DI that I picked up on never using profanity etc. Turns out he was born again Christian. I still graduated as a Marine, was a fairly successful one and have had a good run as an officer ... so I don't think the training is necessarily going to suffer just because folks who were already making comments that are unprofessional may now have to tighten that stuff up even more because of a coed training environment.

I actually saw the difference first hand. I was in all male division, as I shipped out on a Thursday myself. There were still females in the same building. Our brother division (or was it called "sister" division, I can't remember) was also all male... but they did have one female RDC (they also had an RDC who was a "can't get right" shitbag). The verbal beatdowns that they got were nowhere near as "colorful" as the ones we got.

I remember during service week, where different divisions work together... I was cranking at the galley and, of course, there were females there. I'm far from "player of the year" with the ladies, but I can hold my own... and I recall two different females that I struck up lengthy conversations with and stayed close to at different points during service week; which isn't bad in my case... BUT...

The presence of females, from what I've seen, leads to bullying among males. Males trying to flaunt some "alpha" status in front of the females, or males in leadership positions assigning duties to less assertive males that put them further away from him and the females. Things like that. Thankfully, no one from my division was guilty of that; nor did they allow themselves to become victims of that - and I think that it's because of the cohesion that we built during the first half of boot camp before we got to service week.

Rainmaker
01-08-2016, 05:16 PM
I actually saw the difference first hand.

Reality doesn't matter. Everyone knows, That This in no way makes the USMC Stronger.

Whether it's through malice or negligence, It's clear that these treasonous fucks in .gov know that their time is short, so they're trying to inflict as much Lesbian Feminist agenda-driven damage onto the United States Citizenry as possible

SOF and the USMC were the last bastions of the culture of honor remaining in the DoD and the complete lack of opposition to this insanity, by their Senior "Leadership" proves that the Pussification of the US Military is now complete.

Rusty Jones
01-08-2016, 08:33 PM
Here's the other thing I'm worried about: aren't you supposed to FEAR your DIs? Isn't that the point?

Going back when I went through boot camp - again, I was in an all male division and all three of my RDCs were male - I remember the times when I got my ass reamed by the female RDC from the brother division, or various times here and there where I ran into female RDC who had something to say about what I was doing or not doing.

I even got my ass reamed by butch-looking female BMC with a high & tight, I shit you not.

Was I intimidated by any of them? Hell. Fucking. No. I obeyed them because I HAD to, not because I feared them.

I don't think that's what it should be like.

Rainmaker
01-08-2016, 09:28 PM
Here's the other thing I'm worried about: aren't you supposed to FEAR your DIs? Isn't that the point?

Going back when I went through boot camp - again, I was in an all male division and all three of my RDCs were male - I remember the times when I got my ass reamed by the female RDC from the brother division, or various times here and there where I ran into female RDC who had something to say about what I was doing or not doing.

I even got my ass reamed by butch-looking female BMC with a high & tight, I shit you not.

Was I intimidated by any of them? Hell. Fucking. No. I obeyed them because I HAD to, not because I feared them.

I don't think that's what it should be like.


True story Rusty...... I was in the last all male basic traing squadron at Lackland in 1988 and had KP duty over in a coed squadron.

I hadn't seen a female in weeks and spent the whole detail scrubbing pots and pans with a raging boner.

I Came out of the detail without my cover on and some little 5'2" TI chick ran up screaming and cursing and started brow beating my nipples.

I guess I was smirking, which only further infuriated her and she threatened to "Kick my ass", at which point I lost my bearing and my smirk became an obvious grin...... then she yelled "YOU don't think I could do it. Do you??!!" and stormed off.

It's too hard for an 18 year old to take them seriously.

Mjölnir
01-08-2016, 10:47 PM
Here's the other thing I'm worried about: aren't you supposed to FEAR your DIs? Isn't that the point?

Actually no. I think initially many people are afraid of them since they yell at you more than anyone has (probably) in your life. You are supposed to respect them. They are supposed to emulate all that is military discipline and bearing. But no, you are not supposed to fear them. Many people confuse leadership with fear etc.

The USMC Drill Instructor's Creed:


"These recruits are entrusted to my care. I will train them to the best of my ability. I will develop them into smartly disciplined, physically fit, basically trained Marines, thoroughly indoctrinated in love of the Corps and country. I will demand of them and demonstrate by my own example, the highest standards of personal conduct, morality and professional skill."

Nothing about leading via fear, intimidation or abuse.


Going back when I went through boot camp - again, I was in an all male division and all three of my RDCs were male - I remember the times when I got my ass reamed by the female RDC from the brother division, or various times here and there where I ran into female RDC who had something to say about what I was doing or not doing.

I even got my ass reamed by butch-looking female BMC with a high & tight, I shit you not.

Was I intimidated by any of them? Hell. Fucking. No. I obeyed them because I HAD to, not because I feared them.

I don't think that's what it should be like.

You aren't supposed to obey orders out of fear. You are supposed to obey orders because of military discipline. Usually people who resort to that don't know any other way. The instillation of fear can be effective, but (IMO) only very short term.

I hear a lot of stories about the fear aspect of military leadership. Ironically, I spent 12 years in the infantry & reconnaissance and never encountered that technique. I don't hear too many operators who have had that technique used on them outside of very specific situations; you just can't build a professional using that technique ... it almost always builds resentment and then people try to mimic it when they are put in charge. The by-product of that is people remember things with bias and end up being a bigger ass to their subordinates than they were treated and the cycle goes on for a couple 'generations' of 'leaders' and eventually you end up with a butt-ton of shitty folks in senior positions who cannot actually lead.

UncaRastus
01-08-2016, 11:32 PM
Third attempt. My laptop keeps on making my posting disappear.

To keep it short, the recruits were put through an existence which is just short of being hell. The DIs, from when I was one, were instructed to put every recruit through as much stress as could be supplied, short of being in combat.

They were able to instantly follow orders, without thinking about some way to get out of following that order.

I was the Heavy DI for the whole time that I was a DI, at PI, because I was very good at being the heavy.

I never once struck a recruit. However, I did see a senior DI smack one down.

I have talked to many retired Marines, as well as those that did their first enlistment, then got out. They all say that boot camp hasn't changed from when I was a DI.

It's 40 years since I was a DI. I am sure that some things have changed. On the other hand, no matter how much time has gone by, some things remain the same.

One thing that I have noticed, when I visited PI a few years ago, was that the sign on the Reception Barracks had disappeared.

"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here'.

I guess someone didn't like to be reading Dante.

retiredAFcivvy
01-09-2016, 09:09 PM
I really can't speak for USMC, I was AF, but to me this fear was more a fear of failure. Did I ever see a TI (AF for DI) cross the line? Nothing physical but I did see at least one that was emotionally traumatized to the point of breaking.

retiredAFcivvy
01-09-2016, 09:12 PM
Third attempt. My laptop keeps on making my posting disappear.

To keep it short, the recruits were put through an existence which is just short of being hell. The DIs, from when I was one, were instructed to put every recruit through as much stress as could be supplied, short of being in combat.

They were able to instantly follow orders, without thinking about some way to get out of following that order.

I was the Heavy DI for the whole time that I was a DI, at PI, because I was very good at being the heavy.

I never once struck a recruit. However, I did see a senior DI smack one down.

I have talked to many retired Marines, as well as those that did their first enlistment, then got out. They all say that boot camp hasn't changed from when I was a DI.

It's 40 years since I was a DI. I am sure that some things have changed. On the other hand, no matter how much time has gone by, some things remain the same.

One thing that I have noticed, when I visited PI a few years ago, was that the sign on the Reception Barracks had disappeared.

"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here'.

I guess someone didn't like to be reading Dante.
Unca, Super Moderator, a heavy? C'mon. Is there still a Mare Island? My dad went through there in 1915.

Rainmaker
01-09-2016, 11:18 PM
Unca, Super Moderator, a heavy? C'mon. Is there still a Mare Island? My dad went through there in 1915.

1915?! Wow!
Was he at the battle of belleau wood with unca rasta too?

UncaRastus
01-09-2016, 11:37 PM
Mare island, which was used as a Navy shipyard headquarters for Marine Security Forces Pacific and as a Marine barracks, as well as boot camp, was closed as a military installation in 1996.

It was used, prior to San Diego opening for the new location for training Marines, as boot camp as well as another recruit training base up in the Puget Sound area. The recruits were relocated to San Diego, in 1923.

Mare Island was sold to private enterprises, and it is being built up as another housing area, probably for the more well-to-do.

North Island was utilized also. And so on.

retiredAFcivvy
01-09-2016, 11:43 PM
1915?! Wow!
Was he at the battle of belleau wood with unca rasta too?

He served aboard the cruiser USS Brooklyn, flagship for the Pacific Fleet. He was at Vladivostok during the Bolshevik revolution. I've seen several references to that on this forum lately.

Rainmaker
01-09-2016, 11:49 PM
He served aboard the cruiser USS Brooklyn, flagship for the Pacific Fleet. He was at Vladivostok during the Bolshevik revolution. I've seen several references to that on this forum lately.

Man you two guys have probably made more trips around the sun than the rest of us wipper snappers put together!

UncaRastus
01-09-2016, 11:58 PM
I was a Marine when we were still used as marksmen from the fighting tops on the sailing crafts of old. Now, finally, with an old back injury devolving into my spine having bulging discs throughout the entire lumbar section, and a sacral disk being bulged, then being torn, I am off to see a neurosurgeon at the University Hospital in Columbia, MO, next month.

I should have called for another Marine to help me support the mainmast while serving on the old Conny, so called by those who sailed on the USS Constitution, which came crashing down.

You know. Young guys think that they can do anything.

There is a bright spot, to having my back surgerized. I will be the proud owner of a mobility scooter, complete with a cammo paint job, a left blinker which will be activated at all times, a top speed of 15mph, head and tail lights, and a sound system, from which I will constantly play 'Ride of the Valkyries'.

Did I mention that it comes with a .50 cal machine gun mount, and an automatic grenade launcher? If I want to use the optional gatling gun, the run time will be cut down from 40 to 25 miles, between charges.

169

Rainmaker
01-11-2016, 02:29 AM
So exactly who is "Mabus" to undo 240 years of Marine Corps tradition? Inquiring minds want to know

http://www.nostradamus.org/mabus.html

UncaRastus
01-11-2016, 03:58 PM
What I have heard from an impeccable source, is that Private Charles Whitman USMC and PFC Lee Harvey Oswald USMC have been reanimated from their graves.

The Zombie Sniper School for Reanimated Marines was started up a couple of years ago, as Mabus started to try to make the USMC politically correct.

Is there a connection between Mabus, sniping, and Dead Eyed Shooter reanimation?

We will have to wait to see.

retiredAFcivvy
01-11-2016, 05:35 PM
Man you two guys have probably made more trips around the sun than the rest of us wipper snappers put together!

Nah, dad was the adventurer. I was one of those late in life kids. Made it to England and that's about it.

retiredAFcivvy
01-11-2016, 05:47 PM
I was a Marine when we were still used as marksmen from the fighting tops on the sailing crafts of old. Now, finally, with an old back injury devolving into my spine having bulging discs throughout the entire lumbar section, and a sacral disk being bulged, then being torn, I am off to see a neurosurgeon at the University Hospital in Columbia, MO, next month.

I should have called for another Marine to help me support the mainmast while serving on the old Conny, so called by those who sailed on the USS Constitution, which came crashing down.

You know. Young guys think that they can do anything.

There is a bright spot, to having my back surgerized. I will be the proud owner of a mobility scooter, complete with a cammo paint job, a left blinker which will be activated at all times, a top speed of 15mph, head and tail lights, and a sound system, from which I will constantly play 'Ride of the Valkyries'.

Did I mention that it comes with a .50 cal machine gun mount, and an automatic grenade launcher? If I want to use the optional gatling gun, the run time will be cut down from 40 to 25 miles, between charges.

169
Hope everything goes well for you there in mizzou town.

UncaRastus
01-11-2016, 08:37 PM
Thank you, civvy. I hope so, too!