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Bos Mutus
12-29-2015, 09:38 PM
Agree with someone who has authority...be it in govt., the military, some celebrity, whoever...and you'll immediately be derided as "sheep" or "sheeple".."blindly following..." Not a compliment. Obviously, something no one wants to do.

But, Faith, Hope Love...the greatest of these is Love...is supposedly a biblical virtue.

Only when you have Faith in the correct thing, I suppose...which by very definition is believing in something or someone without necessarily the reason or proof to do so.

Isn't it odd...the system of salvation is based on you believing in something when, by definition, you have no proof or reason to do so...In fact, the more simple and childlike your faith is, the greater the virtue.

If you had good reason to believe, it's no longer faith...for even the demons believe and shutter.

Yet...the same people who supposedly base their worldview on Faith, Hope, Love, these three...will be the first to criticize "blind faith"

So, is faith only a virtue when you happen to pick the right thing to have faith in...with no reason whatsoever for picking it?

Is tending toward faith as a general characteristic a vice or a virtue?

Can anyone clear this up?

Rainmaker
12-29-2015, 10:09 PM
Can anyone clear this up?



When the personification of reason (pilate) asks the personification of truth (Christ) "what is truth?". He doesn't answer him.

Because the Truth doesn't answer to reason.

If you will not hear the Truth, no one can tell you.

MikeKerriii
12-30-2015, 04:32 PM
When the personification of reason (pilate) asks the personification of truth (Christ) "what is truth?". He doesn't answer him.

Because the Truth doesn't answer to reason.

If you will not hear the Truth, no one can tell you.

Your "Truth" does not answer to reason becasue it is imaginary.

Matai
12-30-2015, 05:28 PM
Agree with someone who has authority...be it in govt., the military, some celebrity, whoever...and you'll immediately be derided as "sheep" or "sheeple".."blindly following..." Not a compliment. Obviously, something no one wants to do.

But, Faith, Hope Love...the greatest of these is Love...is supposedly a biblical virtue.

Only when you have Faith in the correct thing, I suppose...which by very definition is believing in something or someone without necessarily the reason or proof to do so.

Isn't it odd...the system of salvation is based on you believing in something when, by definition, you have no proof or reason to do so...In fact, the more simple and childlike your faith is, the greater the virtue.

If you had good reason to believe, it's no longer faith...for even the demons believe and shutter.

Yet...the same people who supposedly base their worldview on Faith, Hope, Love, these three...will be the first to criticize "blind faith"

So, is faith only a virtue when you happen to pick the right thing to have faith in...with no reason whatsoever for picking it?

Is tending toward faith as a general characteristic a vice or a virtue?

Can anyone clear this up?

In the hopes that I'm understanding you correctly, you want to know whether or not Faith is a virtue or a vice. I'd have to say it's a virtue because it is a positive thing. A vice is not considered positive.

Faith is positive because it motivates us to do something. Generally it is associated with religion and/or religious people, but it doesn't have to be confined to that only. Faith is an action word in that it motivates behavior. For example, you have faith that your employer will pay you if you perform work for him/her. So you have faith that he will indeed do as he says and you do X. Your faith that you will actually get paid is what motivates you to do the work. When you receive your paycheck your faith is rewarded (so to speak) and it becomes stronger in the fact that if you do X you get paid for it, by your employer. There is enough evidence in the news (scams, etc.) to know that sometimes being promised one thing and getting it don't always go hand in hand. Therefore, faith is a virtue because it drives you to perform an action to achieve some sort of promised reward (whether it's a paycheck, or internal such as feeling good for doing a good deed.)

I could go through each part of your post if you want, but I think that covers generally what you're looking for.

Hope that helps.

Matai
12-30-2015, 05:42 PM
Your "Truth" does not answer to reason becasue it is imaginary.

LOL! In your response to Rainmaker is the same reason Christ didn't respond to Pilate. Christ first went to Pilate, and Pilate couldn't find anything wrong. He knew Christ was innocent of the charges, but he send Christ to Herod hoping that Herod would find/do something about Christ. However, Herod wasn't the final authority and so sent him back to Pilate (again not finding any crime in Christ (i.e. He was innocent). Pilate had already declared that he found no guilt in Christ and so there was nothing to be said, and therefore, He said nothing.

In your response we find a pre-determined conclusion. You have already closed your mind to the possibility of something greater than yourself and therefore, nothing more needs to be said.

Rusty Jones
12-30-2015, 05:57 PM
Faith, by its very definition, is synonymous with cognitive dissonance. That makes it a vice.

Bos Mutus
12-30-2015, 06:22 PM
In the hopes that I'm understanding you correctly, you want to know whether or not Faith is a virtue or a vice. I'd have to say it's a virtue because it is a positive thing. A vice is not considered positive.

Faith is positive because it motivates us to do something. Generally it is associated with religion and/or religious people, but it doesn't have to be confined to that only. Faith is an action word in that it motivates behavior. For example, you have faith that your employer will pay you if you perform work for him/her. So you have faith that he will indeed do as he says and you do X. Your faith that you will actually get paid is what motivates you to do the work. When you receive your paycheck your faith is rewarded (so to speak) and it becomes stronger in the fact that if you do X you get paid for it, by your employer. There is enough evidence in the news (scams, etc.) to know that sometimes being promised one thing and getting it don't always go hand in hand. Therefore, faith is a virtue because it drives you to perform an action to achieve some sort of promised reward (whether it's a paycheck, or internal such as feeling good for doing a good deed.)

I could go through each part of your post if you want, but I think that covers generally what you're looking for.

Hope that helps.

...but, if that employer does scam you...then you are just a sucker, right? Or is having done the work without eventually gaining the promised reward still virtuous?

Rainmaker
12-30-2015, 07:02 PM
...but, if that employer does scam you...then you are just a sucker, right? Or is having done the work without eventually gaining the promised reward still virtuous?

The Truth's Kingdom is not of this world.

MikeKerriii
01-01-2016, 07:51 AM
LOL! In your response to Rainmaker is the same reason Christ didn't respond to Pilate. Christ first went to Pilate, and Pilate couldn't find anything wrong. He knew Christ was innocent of the charges, but he send Christ to Herod hoping that Herod would find/do something about Christ. However, Herod wasn't the final authority and so sent him back to Pilate (again not finding any crime in Christ (i.e. He was innocent). Pilate had already declared that he found no guilt in Christ and so there was nothing to be said, and therefore, He said nothing.

In your response we find a pre-determined conclusion. You have already closed your mind to the possibility of something greater than yourself and therefore, nothing more needs to be said.

It is hard to have a discussion about imaginary characters, There is no evidence of any of the 5000 or so gods that human worship or have worshiped. Provided credible physical evidence , other than the circular reference of the bible, and I will listen, Why do you believe in something that is not supported by evidence? What makes Christ more credible than Shiva?

Matai
01-04-2016, 08:39 PM
Faith, by its very definition, is synonymous with cognitive dissonance. That makes it a vice.

No, it's not. Faith, in the most basic form, is a belief in something that cannot be seen. Cognitive dissonance "is the mental stress or discomfort experienced by an individual who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time, performs an action that is contradictory to one or more beliefs, ideas or values, or is confronted by new information that conflicts with existing beliefs, ideas, or values." (pulled from Wikipedia - for simplicity sake).

At best you could say by having Faith you could experience cognitive dissonance. I would disagree, but am willing to discuss with you if you are really inclined. Faith in and of itself doesn't provide contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values. I think you disagree with that, but I don't.

Matai
01-04-2016, 08:44 PM
...but, if that employer does scam you...then you are just a sucker, right? Or is having done the work without eventually gaining the promised reward still virtuous?

You do face the possibility of being scammed and not getting your money. It would suck, but it certainly doesn't make you the sucker. It makes the other person dishonest and criminal (depending on the arrangement). However, that doesn't mean that Faith is bad, it means that it was misplaced. Therefore you learn and grow, which is still a good thing. Additionally you have the reward of having done the work and done it right. If you didn't get what you were promised as a result, that's not a result of Faith being a bad principle.

The only alternative is to assume that being lazy is a virtue because you don't do anything.

The principle of Faith is still a good thing and virtuous. It gives rise to hope that things can and will be better. Lack of faith leads to despair. It's not coincidental that mankind (religious or otherwise) has defined faith as a positive aspect of ones life.

Matai
01-04-2016, 08:54 PM
It is hard to have a discussion about imaginary characters, There is no evidence of any of the 5000 or so gods that human worship or have worshiped. Provided credible physical evidence , other than the circular reference of the bible, and I will listen, Why do you believe in something that is not supported by evidence? What makes Christ more credible than Shiva?

It's not hard to have a discussion about God (Christ). You happen to disagree that he is real, I don't. That doesn't mean we can't discuss Him. By saying you can't have a discussion means you can't have a discussion about thousands of other fictional topics. Yet we have libraries full of fictional works.

You are only will to discuss the "physical evidence" as you see it, and only so long as it fits your definition of what is acceptable.

You ask me, "Why do you believe in something that is not supported by evidence?" And I respond with because to me there is plenty of evidence. Humans, this planet, to me seem plenty evident of creation. At a minimum it gives rise to the possibility that something greater than myself has a hand in it. A most it gives credibility to God as the supreme creator.

It seems to me that many people on this board (not necessarily you specifically) have a tendency to want to call those of Faith "close-minded." It's funny because I'm the one willing to accept something more than what I see in black and white. I'm the one will to entertain new ideas and principles that I might not understand fully.

However, if you want to have a civil discussion, I'm all for it.

MikeKerriii
01-04-2016, 11:30 PM
It's not hard to have a discussion about God (Christ). You happen to disagree that he is real, I don't. That doesn't mean we can't discuss Him. By saying you can't have a discussion means you can't have a discussion about thousands of other fictional topics. Yet we have libraries full of fictional works.

You are only will to discuss the "physical evidence" as you see it, and only so long as it fits your definition of what is acceptable.

You ask me, "Why do you believe in something that is not supported by evidence?" And I respond with because to me there is plenty of evidence. Humans, this planet, to me seem plenty evident of creation. At a minimum it gives rise to the possibility that something greater than myself has a hand in it. A most it gives credibility to God as the supreme creator.

It seems to me that many people on this board (not necessarily you specifically) have a tendency to want to call those of Faith "close-minded." It's funny because I'm the one willing to accept something more than what I see in black and white. I'm the one will to entertain new ideas and principles that I might not understand fully.

However, if you want to have a civil discussion, I'm all for it. I believe that accepting faith as the answer precludes you from looking for real answers, Your use of God with a capitol G the term God(Christ) shows an attachment not to a creator of the Universe but with being a specific creator myth that is true. Humans believe in thousands of gods, I find no reason to think that one of them is somehow more valid than the others.

I have no trouble with discussion fiction as fiction, but when people make moral and intellectual decisions based on the pinions of a fiction character it raises my eyebrows, and if those people have power it frightens me a bit. We have both Muslims and Christians, today using god as an excuse for committing major crimes so I'm not a big fan of such a convenient excuse to be violent.

The problem, with Pascal's wager is that it is not an either/or but a single choice among thousands of possible answers.

Matai
01-05-2016, 02:05 PM
I believe that accepting faith as the answer precludes you from looking for real answers, Your use of God with a capitol G the term God(Christ) shows an attachment not to a creator of the Universe but with being a specific creator myth that is true. Humans believe in thousands of gods, I find no reason to think that one of them is somehow more valid than the others.

I’m a Christian and I believe in God and that Christ is the creator (hence the term God (Christ)). While Humankind does believe in thousands of Gods, I am not well versed in all of them and so can’t speak to their particular beliefs. While you may not find a valid reason to accept one over the others, many people do. I have mine and others theirs. We all find some reason to cling to our faith. While the particulars are different it seems to me that either a majority of the planet is insane (based on % of people who believe in God of some sort) or there is something to this religion thing.

And what “real” answers am I not looking for or accepting?


I have no trouble with discussion fiction as fiction, but when people make moral and intellectual decisions based on the pinions of a fiction character it raises my eyebrows, and if those people have power it frightens me a bit. We have both Muslims and Christians, today using god as an excuse for committing major crimes so I'm not a big fan of such a convenient excuse to be violent.

As stated above, it seems to me that the majority of the planet believe in God (after some fashion). What astounds me is that despite all this “proof” that He is “fictional” millions of people still seem to find enough “credible evidence” to believe in Him. People still find God in modern times and He hasn’t been relegated to a place of non-existence or non-relevance. You choose not to believe, but quite honestly you find yourself in a minority position by so doing. Either the 1% (or whatever it is for non-believers as a whole) is right and everyone is wrong, or vice versa. Remember when the earth was flat? We just don’t have the capability yet of proving God exists (or doesn’t). At this point it’s purely conjecture and I’ll take the 99% (Billions of witnesses) who claim He exists over the few who say He can’t be true.

You claim I make (or those like me) moral and intellectual decisions based on a fictional character and yet I wonder at those who can’t accept what billions of people claim to be true. Makes me wonder who is more grounded.

Just because someone has religion and uses it to commit violence only makes Religion (God) a “convenient excuse.” That’s just like blaming the Gun for killing people instead of the person who pulls the trigger, or the spoon/fork for making people fat. I tend to blame the person who utilizes the tool (religion, fork/spoon, gun) as opposed to the tool itself.


The problem, with Pascal's wager is that it is not an either/or but a single choice among thousands of possible answers.

Can’t disagree with that. Doesn’t mean I’m not going to be doing my best to find the answers just in case. I figure I can cover my butt. Besides, I don’t view living in accordance with my religion as having any “finite losses” (such as luxury, etc.).