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SomeRandomGuy
12-14-2015, 03:50 PM
Not sure if this is real or not. A reddit poster apparently received an LOC for making a joke about SSgt Spencer Stone.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AirForce/comments/3wpba3/loc_for_making_joke_about_ssgt_stone/

During an active shooter exercise the Airman joked, "let's tackle our way to the NCO tier." That's freaking hilarious. Now some jerk SNCO wrote him an LOC.

What say you guys? Maybe an Active Shooter exercise isn't the best time to be joking around but have we really sapped all the fun out of the Air Force now? If some SNCO out there really wrote an LOC fro this (a verbal counseling would have been fine) they need to hurry up and retire. Good lord, how jaded is that person?

Also, whoever this Amn is they are going to be in even more trouble when SNCO NoFun sees their Reddit thread.

Rainmaker
12-14-2015, 03:54 PM
What say you guys?

Also, whoever this Amn is they are going to be in even more trouble when SNCO NoFun sees their Reddit thread.

If I had to venture a guess, I'd say SNCO "NoFun" must've been on her period that day.

giggawatt
12-14-2015, 04:00 PM
If I had to venture a guess, I'd say SNCO "NoFun" must've been on her period that day.

Reported for sexism.

Rainmaker
12-14-2015, 04:24 PM
Reported for sexism.

Disregard my last.
Diversity is our Greatest Strength. Girl power!

Absinthe Anecdote
12-14-2015, 04:53 PM
Disregard my last.
Diversity is our Greatest Strength. Girl power!

Why does the tag-line "Diversity is our greatest strength" make you so angry?

By the way, I don't think I've seen anyone but you use it.

Rusty Jones
12-14-2015, 05:11 PM
Why does the tag-line "Diversity is our greatest strength" make you so angry?

By the way, I don't think I've seen anyone but you use it.

People who talk the loudest about not feeling "white guilt" are the ones who show that guilt the most. And that's why he speaks of "diversity" in the pejorative so much.

Speaking of which, have you heard about schools dropping Huckleberry Finn from literature classes? It's all related to that.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/dec/14/school-stops-teaching-huckleberry-finn-community-costs-n-word

Absinthe Anecdote
12-14-2015, 06:36 PM
People who talk the loudest about not feeling "white guilt" are the ones who show that guilt the most. And that's why he speaks of "diversity" in the pejorative so much.


You think that is what makes rainmaker tick?

My guess would be that his feelings are rooted in fear.




Speaking of which, have you heard about schools dropping Huckleberry Finn from literature classes? It's all related to that.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/dec/14/school-stops-teaching-huckleberry-finn-community-costs-n-word

I'm not surprised by this. Twain has long been considered a controversial figure, and Huckleberyy Finn was criticized back when it was released.

Plus, the school in that article is a private Quaker school, not surprised in the least by their attitude.

Does Twain's use of the word nigger, bother you? Have you ever read Huckleberry Finn?

Twain is one of my favorite writers, his draft copies of "Letters from Earth" are among my favorite writings of his.

They were only published posthumously in the 1960s.

I think that school is being as silly as the people who think the movie Gone with the Wind should be banned.

sandsjames
12-14-2015, 06:45 PM
You think that is what makes rainmaker tick?

My guess would be that his feelings are rooted in fear.



I'm not surprised by this. Twain has long been considered a controversial figure, and Huckleberyy Finn was criticized back when it was released.

Plus, the school in that article is a private Quaker school, not surprised in the least by their attitude.

Does Twain's use of the word nigger, bother you? Have you ever read Huckleberry Finn?

Twain is one of my favorite writers, his draft copies of "Letters from Earth" are among my favorite writings of his.

They were only published posthumously in the 1960s.

I think that school is being as silly as the people who think the movie Gone with the Wind should be banned.

Huck Finn is an uncomfortable read, especially when you are in a class that has students read it out loud (as we did when I was in elementary school).

However, I don't think it's any different than any movies set in that era that also use the word. I thought that is showed the innocence of the character because, IMO, because that's the only way he knew to refer to him. He was probably Jim's "best friend" and one of few who viewed Jim as a person. I think it's a far more uniting book than many people view it, and was far ahead of it's time with their relationship.

Rusty Jones
12-14-2015, 06:45 PM
You think that is what makes rainmaker tick?

My guess would be that his feelings are rooted in fear.



I'm not surprised by this. Twain has long been considered a controversial figure, and Huckleberyy Finn was criticized back when it was released.

Plus, the school in that article is a private Quaker school, not surprised in the least by their attitude.

Does Twain's use of the word nigger, bother you? Have you ever read Huckleberry Finn?

Twain is one of my favorite writers, his draft copies of "Letters from Earth" are among my favorite writings of his.

They were only published posthumously in the 1960s.

I think that school is being as silly as the people who think the movie Gone with the Wind should be banned.

I really question whether or not it was the word that bothered them. More than simply being an author, Twain was a social commentator. His stories captured what life was life at the time he wrote those stories and THAT, I believe, is the issue people are taking with this book. They don't want to be reminded.

Rusty Jones
12-14-2015, 06:51 PM
To answer the question... no, I didn't read it. I was supposed to in high school but, like a lot of the other books was I was supposed to read in English class, I slept through it in class, didn't read it at home, and tried to wing it on the quizzes and tests. I did catch bits and pieces of it, though.

Rainmaker
12-14-2015, 07:04 PM
By the way, I don't think I've seen anyone but you use it.

A quick google search for the phrase "Diversity is our greatest strength" yields 3,210,000 hits.

Private Companies and the Government agencies spend tens of billions of dollars annually trying to meet made up diversity mandates and minority recruitment goals (regardless of qualifications).

Because, as everybody knows.... Hiring less qualified applicants (As long as they're not white) makes us stronger.

But, Yes of course you've never heard of any of it.

It's all a vast right-wing conspiracy theory and doesn't really exist.

Rusty Jones
12-14-2015, 07:05 PM
A quick google search for the phrase "Diversity is our greatest strength" yields 3,210,000 hits.

Private Companies and the Government agencies spend tens of billions of dollars annually trying to meet made up diversity mandates and minority recruitment goals (regardless of qualifications).

Because, as everybody knows.... Hiring less qualified applicants (As long as they're not white) makes us stronger.

But, Yes of course you've never heard of any of it. It's all a vast right-wing conspiracy theory and doesn't really exist.

So... what job do you want so bad that you're not able to get, because a less qualified brown person has it?

Rainmaker
12-14-2015, 07:05 PM
People who talk the loudest about not feeling "white guilt" are the ones who show that guilt the most. And that's why he speaks of "diversity" in the pejorative so much.

Speaking of which, have you heard about schools dropping Huckleberry Finn from literature classes? It's all related to that.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/dec/14/school-stops-teaching-huckleberry-finn-community-costs-n-word

Perfect example of the Typical Proggie "logic". Where anybody that doesn't publically embrace your beliefs must secretly feel the same way!

We can see this type of Circular reasoning in the Homosexual "rights" agenda. Where anyone who doesn't openly support the government's protection of deviant behavior as a historically oppressed victim group is accused of being secretly a closeted fag themselves.

Liberalism is a mental disorder.

Rusty Jones
12-14-2015, 07:09 PM
Perfect example of the Typical Proggie "logic". Where anybody that doesn't publically embrace your beliefs must secretly feel the same way!

We can see this type of Circular reasoning in the Homosexual "rights" agenda. Where anyone who doesn't openly support the government's protection of deviant behavior as a historically oppressed victim group is accused of being secretly a closeted fag themselves.

Liberalism is a mental disorder.

Nope, that's not it. The fact is, it bothers you. If it didn't... you could easily ignore it, or just embrace it and join the party. Either way, you still get to stay white... so what it matter?

Or do you simply not like being reminded of the fact that you're white?

Rainmaker
12-14-2015, 07:09 PM
So... what job do you want so bad that you're not able to get, because a less qualified brown person has it?

I already have the job I want. My objection is to paying an obscene amount of taxes for other people who can't figure out how to be productive enough without a government handout to get theirs.

Rusty Jones
12-14-2015, 07:15 PM
I already have the job I want. My objection is to paying an obscene amount of taxes for other people who can't figure out how to be productive enough without a government handout to get theirs.

Okay... so, first, you're bitching about a program that helps people get jobs. Now, you're bitching about a program that you perceive to disincentivize getting a job.

Which one is it, man? Pick one!

Rainmaker
12-14-2015, 07:15 PM
You think that is what makes rainmaker tick?

My guess would be that his feelings are rooted in fear.



obviously must be a "phobia"........

But, I still can't believe you haven't heard the tagline..... YOU NEED MOAR DIVERSITY TRAINING.!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PdwhNS9K_g


Watching this Propaganda piece, you'd think the White population of the US was somewhere only around 15% instead of being the majority of the population.

This little motivational video was produced for you by the HAF A1V "diversity and inclusion directorate".

Which is fully manned of course, because we'll ensure the mission critical EEO industry is fully staffed even if it means we'll have to take rated pilots out of the field to do it ......because, as we all know "DIVERSITY IS OUR GREATEST STRENGTH!!!"

And yet, Gen Welsh just told us that he mistakenly cut 20K billets from the AF a couple years ago, and is afraid there is no recovering from those losses because, there's no funding.

FORWARD OVER THE CLIFF!!!!

Rainmaker
12-14-2015, 07:22 PM
Okay... so, first, you're bitching about a program that helps people get jobs. Now, you're bitching about a program that you perceive to disincentivize getting a job.

Which one is it, man? Pick one!

I'm bitching about a program that discriminates only against white people in order to help certain other people get jobs. It's Racist.

Rusty Jones
12-14-2015, 07:24 PM
I'm bitching about a program that discriminates only against white people in order to help certain other people get jobs. It's Racist.

But... did you say that those non-whites are sitting at home and collecting welfare anyway? If they're not applying for jobs, then all those jobs are white peoples' for the taking!

Rainmaker
12-14-2015, 08:50 PM
Uuuhh uuuhh uuuhh uuuhh...

I'm your firefly, I'm your shade
I wanna live in a house that we've made....
I wanna love you everyday
And I'll never fly away....

Uuuhh uuuhh uuuhh uuuhh.......

This is YOUR Air Force....Fueled by Diversity...Uuuhhh uuuhh uhhh uuuhh......

Rainmaker
12-14-2015, 09:36 PM
Plus, the school in that article is a private Quaker school, not surprised in the least by their attitude.

Quakers are known for excellent schools. Obama's daughters go to sidwell friends. It's one of the elite schools of the aristocracy.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-14-2015, 09:38 PM
Nope, that's not it. The fact is, it bothers you. If it didn't... you could easily ignore it, or just embrace it and join the party. Either way, you still get to stay white... so what it matter?

Or do you simply not like being reminded of the fact that you're white?

And it bothers him so much that he turns this thread and damn near ever other thread he touches into a discussion about some aspect of race.

He insists that white people are under attack and America is being controlled by Israel.

We could start a thread about kittens and puppies and somehow he'd start ranting about the Jews, blacks, or Mexicans.

I can imagine what kind of a boorish loudmouth this guy is in real life.

Maybe it is because he has to suppress his feelings in real life, that he comes here to blow off steam.

Rainmaker
12-14-2015, 09:50 PM
He insists that white people are under attack and America is being controlled by Israel.

Waah! He questioned Israeli motives last night! I had no answer!There should be a special category of crime for that! Micro aggression! rayciss..haters!Aaargh!!!my pussy hurts!

Absinthe Anecdote
12-14-2015, 10:21 PM
Waah! He questioned Israeli motives last night! I had no answer!There should be a special category of crime for that! Micro aggression! rayciss..haters!Aaargh!!!my pussy hurts!

It is all you ever talk about.

Rainmaker
12-15-2015, 12:23 AM
It is all you ever talk about.

Well since, 90% of the posts here are about politics it's impossible not to. As for Israel , if the place got turned into a fucking smoking hole in the ground by the Moslem barbarians they're funding. i don't really give a flying fuck. because, for less than 2 percent of the population they're already sucking up enough of the world's air time and strategic resources. And judging by their actions, They sure as hell don't care about us.

As for every other myriad of special victim group they've all got plenty of fucking .gov handouts and protections too. and don't really need me falling on my sword for them. so, yeah i celebrate White Christendom.I'm proud of my heritage, without it the world will descend into a 1000 years of darkness. My opinion. It's a free country. I fought for it. as did 6 generations of my family. My son's in now. so, don't like it. tough shit. deal with it.

But, Lot's of times we'll just be having a discussion and somebody says something that goes against the PC .gov narrative and you and your flunky Bos Mutas will immediately show up and start the Hasbara troll routine, posing as moderates,race baiting and then feigning ignorance and phony outrage at anyone who doesn't swallow the leftist agitprop kool aide. Bos recent post about banning whites over mass shootings is a perfect example. as, soon as he gets called on his race baiting shit he starts, talking about. "you missed the obvious point"

and for someone who's supposedly never heard the "diversity is our strength" tagline, it sure seems as if you must have some sort of phone alarm that goes off whenever I mention it.

Hell you two fuck tards ran most all the conservative posters off here with your endless offensive diatribes about bronze age Christianity and fig trees. don’t get me wrong. No issue with you showing up to discuss it, we're all entitled to our opinion, but you’re obviously biased in favor of your atheist reform Judaism belief system. so let's just cut the shit and call it what it is. but, at least Bos Mutas finally came clean and admitted it, so there is that. Nomsayin?

Absinthe Anecdote
12-15-2015, 12:38 AM
Well since, 90% of the posts here are about politics it's impossible not to. As for Jews if they all went back to Israel or the place got turned into a fucking smoking hole in the ground by the ragheads. i don't give a fuck. for less than 2 percent of the population they're already sucking up enough fucking air time and strategic resources. As for every other victim group they've all got plenty of fucking handouts too. they sure as hell don't need me falling on my sword for them.

But, Lot's of times we'll just be having a discussion and somebody says something that goes against the PC .gov narrative and you and your flunky Bos Mutas will immediately show up and start the Hasbara troll routine, posing as moderates,race baiting and then feigning ignorance and phony outrage at anyone who doesn't swallow the leftist agitprop koolaide. for someone who's never heard the diversity tagline, sure seems as if you must have some sort of phone alarm that goes off whenever I mention it.

Hell you two fuck tards ran most all the conservative posters off here with your endless offensive diatribes about bronze age Christianity and fig trees. don’t get me wrong. No issue with you showing up to discuss it, we're all entitled to our opinion, but you’re obviously biased in favor of your atheist reform Judaism belief system. so let's just cut the shit and call it what it is. but, at least Bos Mutas finally came clean and admitted it, so there is that.

Nomsayin?

Do I know what you are saying?

Yes, I've heard you repeat the same nonsense for over a year now.

I also know that you are a bigoted idiot.

Rainmaker
12-15-2015, 12:53 AM
I also know that you are a bigoted idiot.

Good. Glad you got that off your chest.
Now lets get back to discussing how Political correctness is cancer that ultimately leads to an airman getting an LOC for making a funny joke that no one's even offended by.

MikeKerriii
12-15-2015, 01:20 AM
Not sure if this is real or not. A reddit poster apparently received an LOC for making a joke about SSgt Spencer Stone.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AirForce/comments/3wpba3/loc_for_making_joke_about_ssgt_stone/

During an active shooter exercise the Airman joked, "let's tackle our way to the NCO tier." That's freaking hilarious. Now some jerk SNCO wrote him an LOC.

What say you guys? Maybe an Active Shooter exercise isn't the best time to be joking around but have we really sapped all the fun out of the Air Force now? If some SNCO out there really wrote an LOC fro this (a verbal counseling would have been fine) they need to hurry up and retire. Good lord, how jaded is that person?

Also, whoever this Amn is they are going to be in even more trouble when SNCO NoFun sees their Reddit thread.
It is an unsupported claim on Reddit, About as trustworthy as the guy with the tin-foil hat claiming that we are being controlled by lizard people disquieted as the Illuminati.

Bos Mutus
12-15-2015, 01:21 AM
Not sure if this is real or not. A reddit poster apparently received an LOC for making a joke about SSgt Spencer Stone.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AirForce/comments/3wpba3/loc_for_making_joke_about_ssgt_stone/

During an active shooter exercise the Airman joked, "let's tackle our way to the NCO tier." That's freaking hilarious. Now some jerk SNCO wrote him an LOC.

What say you guys? Maybe an Active Shooter exercise isn't the best time to be joking around but have we really sapped all the fun out of the Air Force now? If some SNCO out there really wrote an LOC fro this (a verbal counseling would have been fine) they need to hurry up and retire. Good lord, how jaded is that person?

Also, whoever this Amn is they are going to be in even more trouble when SNCO NoFun sees their Reddit thread.

possible there is another side to the story...also possible there is an overzealous idiot snco...hard to say, I've seen SNCOs do dumber stuff...but have also seen airmen grossly mischaracterize why they were given an LOC.

Neither is really anything new or any indication of 'what the AF has become'

I would like to see him post th actual LOC, names redacted....

MikeKerriii
12-15-2015, 01:24 AM
People who talk the loudest about not feeling "white guilt" are the ones who show that guilt the most. And that's why he speaks of "diversity" in the pejorative so much.

Speaking of which, have you heard about schools dropping Huckleberry Finn from literature classes? It's all related to that.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/dec/14/school-stops-teaching-huckleberry-finn-community-costs-n-word

They are banning one of the early major works that attacked racism because rural people talked like people of their time did. To quote the great philosopher Bugs " What a maroon!"

MikeKerriii
12-15-2015, 01:32 AM
You think that is what makes rainmaker tick?

My guess would be that his feelings are rooted in fear. Agreed




I'm not surprised by this. Twain has long been considered a controversial figure, and Huckleberyy Finn was criticized back when it was released.

Plus, the school in that article is a private Quaker school, not surprised in the least by their attitude.

Does Twain's use of the word nigger, bother you? Have you ever read Huckleberry Finn?

Twain is one of my favorite writers, his draft copies of "Letters from Earth" are among my favorite writings of his.

They were only published posthumously in the 1960s.

I think that school is being as silly as the people who think the movie Gone with the Wind should be banned. It was criticized for being too liberal , mostly for the sympathy shown the "criminal" N* Jim.

War Prayer is my favorite work of his , even if it brutal.

Rainmaker
12-15-2015, 01:43 AM
mostly for the sympathy shown the "criminal" N* Jim.


Really Mike? Why Do you have to be so crass?
Can we as an online community evolve, please?

Bos Mutus
12-15-2015, 01:43 AM
You think that is what makes rainmaker tick?

My guess would be that his feelings are rooted in fear.



I'm not surprised by this. Twain has long been considered a controversial figure, and Huckleberyy Finn was criticized back when it was released.

Plus, the school in that article is a private Quaker school, not surprised in the least by their attitude.

Does Twain's use of the word nigger, bother you? Have you ever read Huckleberry Finn?

Twain is one of my favorite writers, his draft copies of "Letters from Earth" are among my favorite writings of his.

They were only published posthumously in the 1960s.

I think that school is being as silly as the people who think the movie Gone with the Wind should be banned.

Have you read his autobiography? Wasn't as witty as I'd hoped, but still has some gems

Rainmaker
12-15-2015, 01:49 AM
Have you read his autobiography? Wasn't as witty as I'd hoped, but still has some gems

Agree Agree. Deep thinking, man! My congratulations.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-15-2015, 01:50 AM
Have you read his autobiography? Wasn't as witty as I'd hoped, but still has some gems

It wasn't really an autobiography if it is the same one I'm thinking of.

It was material that Twain dictated very late in his life and left in manuscript form, then it was published long after his death.

So, it wasn't Twain at the top of his game.

Rainmaker
12-15-2015, 01:53 AM
It wasn't really an autobiography if it is the same one I'm thinking of.

It was material that Twain dictated very late in his life and left in manuscript form, then it was published long after his death.

So, it wasn't Twain at the top of his game.

Makes sense. clearly you've done a fair, and genuine analysis. Bravo!

Absinthe Anecdote
12-15-2015, 01:58 AM
possible there is another side to the story...also possible there is an overzealous idiot snco...hard to say, I've seen SNCOs do dumber stuff...but have also seen airmen grossly mischaracterize why they were given an LOC.

Neither is really anything new or any indication of 'what the AF has become'

I would like to see him post th actual LOC, names redacted....

Exactly.

It is nothing to get upset over. Even if it did happen exactly as described.

SNCOs aren't immune from being dumbasses, and it has always been that way.

Besides, it very easily could be an exaggerated story.

Rainmaker
12-15-2015, 02:03 AM
Exactly.

It is nothing to get upset over. Even if it did happen exactly as described.

SNCOs aren't immune from being dumbasses, and it has always been that way.

Besides, it very easily could be an exaggerated story.

i do agree with both of your points. ... i wholeheartedly agree.

MikeKerriii
12-15-2015, 02:47 AM
Really Mike? Why Do you have to be so crass?
Can we as an online community evolve, please?

Up your game! That trolling attempt barely makes it to a .1 on a 0 to 10 scale

Bos Mutus
12-15-2015, 03:45 AM
It wasn't really an autobiography if it is the same one I'm thinking of.

It was material that Twain dictated very late in his life and left in manuscript form, then it was published long after his death.

So, it wasn't Twain at the top of his game.

Sounds like the one...his instructions were it could not be published until 100 years after his death.

giggawatt
12-15-2015, 07:06 AM
Good. Glad you got that off your chest.
Now lets get back to discussing how Political correctness is cancer that ultimately leads to an airman getting an LOC for making a funny joke that no one's even offended by.

Speaking of no one's even offended by, I used to work with a Muslim guy who was pretty laid back and had a good sense of humor. Recently someone made a terrorist joke at his expense. Since he has a good sense of humor, he went with it and laughed it off. The funny part was how everyone above him was telling him that he was supposed to be offended and report it.

sandsjames
12-15-2015, 10:51 AM
My bet is that the situation, if true, went something like this. There's a guy in the shop who is the "joker", always making comments, being "witty". There is an "active-shooter" exercise that the boss wants everyone to take seriously. The "joker" is bitching and making comments all the way through the exercise. The boss is stuck in the same room. The "joker" is annoying. The boss is an uptight douche bag, and the combination of the two, locked in a room for an excessive amount of time together, lowers the DB's tolerance level, leading him to write the LOC on the over zealous "joker".

Rusty Jones
12-15-2015, 12:10 PM
Speaking of no one's even offended by, I used to work with a Muslim guy who was pretty laid back and had a good sense of humor. Recently someone made a terrorist joke at his expense. Since he has a good sense of humor, he went with it and laughed it off. The funny part was how everyone above him was telling him that he was supposed to be offended and report it.

Well... are you sure he has a "good sense of humor?" Because he could just be going along to get along.

I take shots at Christianity here and on facebook, but I don't do it in person. Now is it because I'm afraid to say it to someone's face? No. Well, maybe, but not for the reasons you might think.

Here on MTF, we're nothing to each other but mere usernames and words on a screen. We can talk shit back to each other in ways that we're not able to in person.

If I was to talk about Christianity at work or to my friends and family the way I talk about it here, I'm creating a hostile environment. Not just for my coworkers, friends, and family... but for myself as well. This being the internet, we can talk shit right back or walk away. Either way, no one gives a fuck about a "hostile environment" on the internet.

That Muslim friend of yours? I'm not so sure he'd get away with comebacks that involve bashing Christianity. And even if he could, he'd only be making the environment even more hostile for himself. So he probably shuts up and takes it.

Mjölnir
12-15-2015, 12:33 PM
My bet is that the situation, if true, went something like this. There's a guy in the shop who is the "joker", always making comments, being "witty". There is an "active-shooter" exercise that the boss wants everyone to take seriously. The "joker" is bitching and making comments all the way through the exercise. The boss is stuck in the same room. The "joker" is annoying. The boss is an uptight douche bag, and the combination of the two, locked in a room for an excessive amount of time together, lowers the DB's tolerance level, leading him to write the LOC on the over zealous "joker".

In your scenario, the 'boss' wanting people to take a training evolution seriously defaults to uptight douche bag?

Mjölnir
12-15-2015, 12:41 PM
Let's stop the personal insults.

Disagree on your points / opinions but name calling and overt profanity (especially when directed at one another) isn't needed.

Rainmaker
12-15-2015, 12:47 PM
Well... are you sure he has a "good sense of humor?" Because he could just be going along to get along.

Good point. Obviously he's applying the principle of Taqiyya.
Probably should turn him over to the proper authorities just to be on the safe side.

sandsjames
12-15-2015, 01:34 PM
In your scenario, the 'boss' wanting people to take a training evolution seriously defaults to uptight douche bag?

No...I'm assuming he was already an uptight douche bag. And have you ever had to sit through an active shooter exercise? Once you're in the room, locked down, there's no more training to do, but you're still there for a couple hours. So people are going to ease the tension.

In my scenario, I'm putting the blame on both people. Inappropriate comments at an inappropriate time and an overreaction by the boss.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-15-2015, 01:53 PM
The notion that this is an example of political correctness run amok is absurd.

Who knows what the history is between these two, and I'm pretty sure that airmen routinely claim they were given paperwork when an SNCO only told them to shut their mouth.

Howevr, the "PC is a cancer crowd" is a perfect example of hysterical hand-wringers who are inventing shit to be upset about.

There has always been standards of socially acceptable behavior that have shifted and changed over the generations.

It is nothing new.

It is just the normal progression of change.

Smoking was rampant when I joined, now it is frowned upon and discouraged.

Is it PC bullshit to not have people smoking at their desks?

Not in my book.

Rusty Jones
12-15-2015, 01:58 PM
People who bitch about political correctness would have you believe that people used to be able to talk shit back in the 1950's with no consequences.

Mjölnir
12-15-2015, 02:06 PM
People who bitch about political correctness would have you believe that people used to be able to talk shit back in the 1950's with no consequences.

So, the Marine Corps was founded on 10 Nov 1775 at Tun Tavern in Philadelphia Pennsylvania.

The first Continental Marine is enlisted, told to report to the pier at the Philadelphia harbor and await further instructions, he does so. About 4 hours later, the second Continental Marine reports to the harbor as instructed. The first Continental Marine looks at him and says "let me tell you about the old Corps."

Mjölnir
12-15-2015, 02:17 PM
No...I'm assuming he was already an uptight douche bag. And have you ever had to sit through an active shooter exercise? Once you're in the room, locked down, there's no more training to do, but you're still there for a couple hours. So people are going to ease the tension.

I have done a few ... depending on the scenario, training objective there may be more to do once sheltered. Wasn't there in this case so I don't know. The boss may have taking it more seriously based on the media coverage of shooting incidents lately ... who knows. Bottom line is if the the boss tells "joker" to secure the joking, pipe down, STFU or whatever and "joker" doesn't ... then "joker" is being insubordinate.

sandsjames
12-15-2015, 02:26 PM
Bottom line is if the the boss tells "joker" to secure the joking, pipe down, STFU or whatever and "joker" doesn't ... then "joker" is being insubordinate.And the boss is being a DB. Doesn't just have to be one or the other.

Mjölnir
12-15-2015, 02:29 PM
And the boss is being a DB. Doesn't just have to be one or the other.

Based on the scenario, I don't think a leader having people in the military, behave with a bit of discipline is being a douche bag. Probably is a difference of perspective.

sandsjames
12-15-2015, 02:44 PM
Based on the scenario, I don't think a leader having people in the military, behave with a bit of discipline is being a douche bag. Probably is a difference of perspective.

I know we're heading off topic here, but what good does it do to issue an LOC in this scenario? Does he think it's going to make the guy take things more seriously? As far as a difference of perspective, that's probably true. I mean, the training is definitely as effective as the "duck and cover" training from the cold war.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-15-2015, 02:53 PM
I know we're heading off topic here, but what good does it do to issue an LOC in this scenario? Does he think it's going to make the guy take things more seriously? As far as a difference of perspective, that's probably true. I mean, the training is definitely as effective as the "duck and cover" training from the cold war.

You think it is dumb to train against active shooters?

Really?

No way.

As for Duck and Cover, if you were in the primary blast zone it wouldn't do you any good.

However, if you are further out it actually could help you.

There were plenty of survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I did a lot of training at a missile base about surviving in a bunker after a nuclear exchange.

It included dealing with people going berserk, stealing rations and coping with being shut in for long periods.

Call it pointless, but I'm glad we were at least thinking about it.

Surviving an active shooter scenario is certainly doable, and you can train your people to make it a hell of a lot tougher on the shooter to succeed with their goals.

sandsjames
12-15-2015, 03:05 PM
You think it is dumb to train against active shooters?

Really?

No way.

As for Duck and Cover, if you were in the primary blast zone it wouldn't do you any good.

However, if you are further out it actually could help you.

There were plenty of survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I did a lot of training at a missile base about surviving in a bunker after a nuclear exchange.

It included dealing with people going berserk, stealing rations and coping with being shut in for long periods.

Call it pointless, but I'm glad we were at least thinking about it.

Surviving an active shooter scenario is certainly doable, and you can train your people to make it a hell of a lot tougher on the shooter to succeed with their goals.

I don't mind the training but, let's be honest here. As with most training done in the Air Force, it's more about the Command and Control response than anything else. Once me and my guys are locked down in a room, my part of the training is pretty much done. To make it miserable for an extended period of time is pointless.

UncaRastus
12-15-2015, 03:08 PM
In the USMC, if one is told to shut his mouth by anyone more highly ranked, he shuts his mouth. The Marines don't take too much of a shine to someone that is of a lower rank talking back, or disobeying an order from someone that is more highly ranked.

Out in combat, the corporals and the sergeants are basically in charge of what is going on. Even lance corporals have the say over the pfcs, and the pfcs over pvts.

There is no room for disobedience. And that goes beyond the field of combat. In everything, the lower ranked does what the upper rank tells him to do.

In the USAF, is it OK to keep on running the mouth, after that person is told to stop it, by a higher ranked person?

Please, I am not joking. That's a 'want to know question'.

sandsjames
12-15-2015, 03:15 PM
In the USMC, if one is told to shut his mouth by anyone more highly ranked, he shuts his mouth. The Marines don't take too much of a shine to someone that is of a lower rank talking back, or disobeying an order from someone that is more highly ranked.

Out in combat, the corporals and the sergeants are basically in charge of what is going on. Even lance corporals have the say over the pfcs, and the pfcs over pvts.

There is no room for disobedience. And that goes beyond the field of combat. In everything, the lower ranked does what the upper rank tells him to do.

In the USAF, is it OK to keep on running the mouth, after that person is told to stop it, by a higher ranked person?

Please, I am not joking. That's a 'want to know question'.

First off, it's rare for someone in the AF to be told to shut their mouth. Second, the mission is completely different. Marines are strictly for combat. Air Force is not (other than select career fields). We aren't trained to fight (no matter what leadership says) so we don't have instances where questioning a "leader" is going to be a life or death issue. When something like this happens in the Air Force, it's more about ego and personality clashes than it is about substance and reasoning.

However, to answer your question, airmen are required to follow orders of those above them, just as in any other service.

UncaRastus
12-15-2015, 03:34 PM
OK, Sandy, got it. I recall that when I graduated from boot camp, if somebody gave me a stick and told me to attack an enemy tank, I would have done that.

Of course, I soon learned that if I just put on a stripe, then I could attack the same tank with my M16. Ya know, stick attacks are for the privates.

;)

But seriously speaking, Remington Raiders, or wing wipers, or any other field other than infantry, the same discipline holds fast. Maybe the idea that every Marine is a rifleman is part of that.

Back when, on Iwo Jima, when the Marines were being taken off, the only guys that still had rifles were the typists. The cooks. And so on.

Then an unexpected last ditch attack by the Japanese that were left on the island, contrary to what was thought, was put down by the non infantry guys.

That happened again, elsewhere, during WW2. And since.

I suppose, because the USMC is so small in comparison to the Army, everyone might have their day. And that is why the Marines, even if not infantry, are prepared for that day.

sandsjames
12-15-2015, 03:42 PM
OK, Sandy, got it. I recall that when I graduated from boot camp, if somebody gave me a stick and told me to attack an enemy tank, I would have done that.

Of course, I soon learned that if I just put on a stripe, then I could attack the same tank with my M16. Ya know, stick attacks are for the privates.

;)

But seriously speaking, Remington Raiders, or wing wipers, or any other field other than infantry, the same discipline holds fast. Maybe the idea that every Marine is a rifleman is part of that.

Back when, on Iwo Jima, when the Marines were being taken off, the only guys that still had rifles were the typists. The cooks. And so on.

Then an unexpected last ditch attack by the Japanese that were left on the island, contrary to what was thought, was put down by the non infantry guys.

That happened again, elsewhere, during WW2. And since.

I suppose, because the USMC is so small in comparison to the Army, everyone might have their day. And that is why the Marines, even if not infantry, are prepared for that day.

You ever see "A Few Good Men"? You know that line in there Tom Cruise has about orders being punch lines? It's similar to that for most things. Of course there are real orders, too, that get followed, but for the most part the order is about something stupid like making a joke at an "inappropriate time" or something.

Bos Mutus
12-15-2015, 03:54 PM
You ever see "A Few Good Men"? You know that line in there Tom Cruise has about orders being punch lines? It's similar to that for most things. Of course there are real orders, too, that get followed, but for the most part the order is about something stupid like making a joke at an "inappropriate time" or something.

Funny you should bring up that movie...I was watching it again for about the 2,300th time this weekend. I love that movie...my wife used to like it, but doesn't like to watch it anymore.

Anyway...couple things bother me about the movie.

I'm not a legal expert...so, I was wondering...is there really negative consequences for a ADC to accuse a senior officer of something in court without evidence? I could see how that might be a rule to prevent throwing mud on the generals all the time, but doesn't seem like the accused could get a fair trial if raising reasonable doubt that a senior officer might be involved is prohibited.

My guess is there really is no such rule for the ADC, but it was just made up to add drama to the movie.


The other one that others me more...is that Col. Jessup and Lt. Kendrick talk a good game about duty honor and loyalty, Jesus...as the backbones of a life defending something...blah, blah, blah...but have no problem throwing two of their enlisted Marines under the bus in a court martial...and no one calls them out on it...where is the loyalty there? OK, I can understand Jessup being up in the corrupt clouds, but Kendrick seems like he's pretty ate up about all of that...seems like he would've had more of a personal dilemma in there about lying to protect himself and sacrifice two Marines that followed his order. Pretty shitty.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-15-2015, 03:58 PM
First off, it's rare for someone in the AF to be told to shut their mouth. Second, the mission is completely different. Marines are strictly for combat. Air Force is not (other than select career fields). We aren't trained to fight (no matter what leadership says) so we don't have instances where questioning a "leader" is going to be a life or death issue. When something like this happens in the Air Force, it's more about ego and personality clashes than it is about substance and reasoning.

However, to answer your question, airmen are required to follow orders of those above them, just as in any other service.

I used to tell my troops to shut up and listen all the time.

I heard it plenty in my career too.

I'd disagree with you about discipline not being important except in a few select career fields.

In Security Forces it was a damn big deal and even in Intel there were certain watch centers that were in direct communications with aircraft over hostile airspace.

One fuck up over the radio in calling out a threat warning could lead to the loss of an aircraft or the termination of a mission before it was complete.

We sure as hell took our training seriously and didn't mouth off about being told to do something.

I'm guessing that aircraft maintenance is also pretty strict about discipline out on the flight line too.

The fire department is and I'm sure we can come up with others.

That said, your attitude wasn't uncommon, and I always thought it was a dangerous attitude to have.

Mjölnir
12-15-2015, 03:59 PM
I know we're heading off topic here, but what good does it do to issue an LOC in this scenario? Does he think it's going to make the guy take things more seriously?

Will a formal counseling on "joker" make him take things more seriously? Maybe, maybe not. If "joker" has already decided that the military isn't for him ... them probably not. It could also influence the Amn to the side of "joker" who is making this a career to be a bit more serious when the time or a boss calls for it.


As far as a difference of perspective, that's probably true. I mean, the training is definitely as effective as the "duck and cover" training from the cold war.

I meant more of a leadership vice followership thing.

Rusty Jones
12-15-2015, 04:02 PM
In the USMC, if one is told to shut his mouth by anyone more highly ranked, he shuts his mouth. The Marines don't take too much of a shine to someone that is of a lower rank talking back, or disobeying an order from someone that is more highly ranked.


First off, it's rare for someone in the AF to be told to shut their mouth. Second, the mission is completely different. Marines are strictly for combat. Air Force is not (other than select career fields). We aren't trained to fight (no matter what leadership says) so we don't have instances where questioning a "leader" is going to be a life or death issue.

Funny. In the Navy you can tell someone to "shut the fuck up;" but unless you're a khaki, you're gonna deal with some lip from the person that you just told to "shut the fuck up." And then you're gonna get your ass reamed by the khaki that the litte knucklehead ran to.

I find my job as an E6 easier in the Air Force than the Navy. And I attribute it to the Navy's uniform situation, i.e., "if you ain't khaki, you ain't shit."

sandsjames
12-15-2015, 04:11 PM
I used to tell my troops to shut up and listen all the time.

I heard it plenty in my career too.

I'd disagree with you about discipline not being important except in a few select career fields.

In Security Forces it was a damn big deal and even in Intel there were certain watch centers that were in direct communications with aircraft over hostile airspace.

One fuck up over the radio in calling out a threat warning could lead to the loss of an aircraft or the termination of a mission before it was complete.

We sure as hell took our training seriously and didn't mouth off about being told to do something.

I'm guessing that aircraft maintenance is also pretty strict about discipline out on the flight line too.

The fire department is and I'm sure we can come up with others.

That said, your attitude wasn't uncommon, and I always thought it was a dangerous attitude to have.

Of course. Johnny made a joke while sitting in a room for two hours and the boss didn't like it. That's pretty important shit to get worked up about.

Rainmaker
12-15-2015, 04:15 PM
Of course. Johnny made a joke while sitting in a room for two hours and the boss didn't like it. That's pretty important shit to get worked up about.

THE BEATINGS WiLL CONTINUE UNTILL MORALE IMPROVES!!!

Rainmaker
12-15-2015, 04:19 PM
That said, your attitude wasn't uncommon, and I always thought it was a dangerous attitude to have.

Give me a break. Making a harmless joke to a coworker, during another retarded ass "Cower in place" drill.

God forbid anyone ever try and make the best of a situation."It's just soooo dangerous. Let's convene a courts-martial!"

You must've been a really miserable person to work around.

sandsjames
12-15-2015, 04:19 PM
The problem is that a couple of you are trying to make the point that all training is equally important and that's just not true. Of course critical parts of the job are important. However, most of the Emergency Management type training done within the Air Force, for those not in the Emergency Management career fields, is just using everyone else on base as tools to make their response times/procedures better. So me, or the guy in finance, or the cook at the chow hall are nothing more than a body and, although they are included in the exercise, they are not really part of it.

So please don't embarrass yourself by making statements about radio communication or Fire Department Emergency Response and comparing them to me sitting in my locked up office during the exercise.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-15-2015, 04:20 PM
Of course. Johnny made a joke while sitting in a room for two hours and the boss didn't like it. That's pretty important shit to get worked up about.

No, that post was in response to you telling Rastus that it is rare to be told to shut up and discipline doesn't matter in the Air Force.

But since you bring it up, why should little Johhny get bent out of shape about being told to stop joking?

Does he have to get all upset and go post it all over the internet like a crybaby from a PowerPro shop?

Absinthe Anecdote
12-15-2015, 04:23 PM
The problem is that a couple of you are trying to make the point that all training is equally important and that's just not true. Of course critical parts of the job are important. However, most of the Emergency Management type training done within the Air Force, for those not in the Emergency Management career fields, is just using everyone else on base as tools to make their response times/procedures better. So me, or the guy in finance, or the cook at the chow hall are nothing more than a body and, although they are included in the exercise, they are not really part of it.

So please don't embarrass yourself by making statements about radio communication or Fire Department Emergency Response and comparing them to me sitting in my locked up office during the exercise.

Again, that was in response to your chacterization of the Air Force to Rastus.

Now shut the fuck up.

sandsjames
12-15-2015, 04:25 PM
No, that post was in response to you telling Rastus that it is rare to be told to shut up and discipline doesn't matter in the Air Force.

But since you bring it up, why should little Johhny get bent out of shape about being told to stop joking?

Does he have to get all upset and go post it all over the internet like a crybaby from a PowerPro shop?

There you go. I was wondering how long you were going to be civil after I cam back. Apparently it was until I disagreed with you about something.

I never stated that discipline in the Air Force wasn't important. It's just different importance than it is in the combat services/career fields. It's unfortunate that some people don't believe their subordinates are intelligent enough to know the difference.

sandsjames
12-15-2015, 04:26 PM
Again, that was in response to your chacterization of the Air Force to Rastus.

Now shut the fuck up.

I will not, sir.

Rainmaker
12-15-2015, 04:26 PM
like a crybaby from a PowerPro shop?

Rainmaker spent about a year working for a J2 once.

Intel weenies were by far the biggest bunch of whining bitches I've ever been around.

UncaRastus
12-15-2015, 04:29 PM
Yeah. I have been around when 'blanker parties' happened. Never received or took part in any of them. I have seen guys go to the whisky locker for attitude adjustments, but again, I have never been a part of that.

Back then (because I no longer know if any of that still goes on), the attitude adjustments seemed to work. I recall a couple of times, when someone is given the option of either going to the whisky locker, or being given an 'Office Hours', (NJP).

The whisky locker? Basically the cleaning gear closet, where the person is invited in to have his problem 'solved' by the higher ranked person. The whisky locker was not used all of the time, but was used when the situation called for it, according to the back then reasoning..

I am not saying that blanket parties or whisky lockering were right. Just that they did occur.

And these were not used to settle accounts. They were used to impress on a person that they had to stop what they were doing. If that person was not likely to stop, by the usage of that means of 'training', then the person wasn't usually given the choice. He went to office hours. NJP. Whatever.

Some of the Marines that I know had never seen any of that. Some do remember. Some had gone to the whisky locker. So, if you ask a bunch of Marines, not all of them will have the same memories.

What would have happened if I turned in the participants? Back then? Um, no. I wouldn't do that. No one would. Blanket parties happen.

Now? I certainly hope that with the downsizing, that the current members are professional in all that they do. It would be nice to have a Corps that pulls together, 100% of the time.

Hopefully, that is what is going on. One can always hope!

A long time has passed between when I enlisted, and now. 40 some odd years is a long time.

SomeRandomGuy
12-15-2015, 04:38 PM
In the USMC, if one is told to shut his mouth by anyone more highly ranked, he shuts his mouth. The Marines don't take too much of a shine to someone that is of a lower rank talking back, or disobeying an order from someone that is more highly ranked.

Out in combat, the corporals and the sergeants are basically in charge of what is going on. Even lance corporals have the say over the pfcs, and the pfcs over pvts.

There is no room for disobedience. And that goes beyond the field of combat. In everything, the lower ranked does what the upper rank tells him to do.

In the USAF, is it OK to keep on running the mouth, after that person is told to stop it, by a higher ranked person?

Please, I am not joking. That's a 'want to know question'.

Funny Story: I'm working the customer service counter at Finance. About 10 feet to my right is a female A1C. She's helping a Colonel. I hear them arguing about his pay being messed up. I listen a little closer:

Colonel: What am I supposed to do about my bills?
A1C: Sir, as an A1C in the Air Force I'm expected to handle my finances. Are you telling me you can't do the same as a Colonel?

As, you can imagine the Col. was interested in talking to A1C's supervisor at that point. If that happened in the Marines I imagine the Colonel would have smacked the shit out of the A1C. In the Air Force you get interactions like that all the time.

sandsjames
12-15-2015, 04:42 PM
Yeah. I have been around when 'blanker parties' happened. Never received or took part in any of them. I have seen guys go to the whisky locker for attitude adjustments, but again, I have never been a part of that.

Back then (because I no longer know if any of that still goes on), the attitude adjustments seemed to work. I recall a couple of times, when someone is given the option of either going to the whisky locker, or being given an 'Office Hours', (NJP).

The whisky locker? Basically the cleaning gear closet, where the person is invited in to have his problem 'solved' by the higher ranked person. The whisky locker was not used all of the time, but was used when the situation called for it, according to the back then reasoning..

I am not saying that blanket parties or whisky lockering were right. Just that they did occur.

And these were not used to settle accounts. They were used to impress on a person that they had to stop what they were doing. If that person was not likely to stop, by the usage of that means of 'training', then the person wasn't usually given the choice. He went to office hours. NJP. Whatever.

Some of the Marines that I know had never seen any of that. Some do remember. Some had gone to the whisky locker. So, if you ask a bunch of Marines, not all of them will have the same memories.

What would have happened if I turned in the participants? Back then? Um, no. I wouldn't do that. No one would. Blanket parties happen.

Now? I certainly hope that with the downsizing, that the current members are professional in all that they do. It would be nice to have a Corps that pulls together, 100% of the time.

Hopefully, that is what is going on. One can always hope!

A long time has passed between when I enlisted, and now. 40 some odd years is a long time.

If that happened in the Air Force, there would be a lot of broken SNCOs getting their asses beat by the guys they took in the closet. The thing to remember in the Air Force is that most of the people (not all, but most) who climb the ranks to be in those positions were the kids in school who got beat up all the time so they take their pent up anger out on people in the only way they know how...by hiding behind their rank. It's the only thing they know how to use because they don't have any interpersonal skills that could mentor/lead people into wanting to follow them.

Rusty Jones
12-15-2015, 04:50 PM
If that happened in the Air Force, there would be a lot of broken SNCOs getting their asses beat by the guys they took in the closet. The thing to remember in the Air Force is that most of the people (not all, but most) who climb the ranks to be in those positions were the kids in school who got beat up all the time so they take their pent up anger out on people in the only way they know how...by hiding behind their rank. It's the only thing they know how to use because they don't have any interpersonal skills that could mentor/lead people into wanting to follow them.

Oh, fuck's sake... the "he must've gotten his ass kicked in high school" argument.

Usually, the "he must've gotten his ass kicked in high school" argument comes from people who resent the fact that they just got told off by someone physically smaller than they are, and they can't do shit about it.

sandsjames
12-15-2015, 04:59 PM
Oh, fuck's sake... the "he must've gotten his ass kicked in high school" argument.

Usually, the "he must've gotten his ass kicked in high school" argument comes from people who resent the fact that they just got told off by someone physically smaller than they are, and they can't do shit about it.

Just the experience of my career and the bosses I had. The majority spent more time playing "Magic" at the local comic book store than they did doing anything else.

Rusty Jones
12-15-2015, 05:18 PM
Just the experience of my career and the bosses I had. The majority spent more time playing "Magic" at the local comic book store than they did doing anything else.

In any case, it's probably some guy whose ass you can kick... and taking orders from someone like that must be a big ego bruiser.

sandsjames
12-15-2015, 05:24 PM
In any case, it's probably some guy whose ass you can kick... and taking orders from someone like that must be a big ego bruiser.No...taking legitimate orders is fine, though I'll say that I can't remember anyone actually give a stereotypical military "order" in my entire career, no more so than a shop foreman tells his guys what needs to be done for the day. I think that's hard for non-Air Force people to get a grasp on. Technically, everything is an order...showing up to work on time, doing assigned jobs, etc, but I can't remember a specific time I ever heard someone bitch about being told to do something and the guy says "That's an order, airman" or anything along those lines.

Rainmaker
12-15-2015, 05:34 PM
Howevr, the "PC is a cancer crowd" is a perfect example of hysterical hand-wringers who are inventing shit to be upset about.

There has always been standards of socially acceptable behavior that have shifted and changed over the generations.

It is nothing new.

It is just the normal progression of change.




There's a difference between Common Courtesy and Political correctness (PC).

PC is being used to control our speech and belief system and to silence any opposition to the collectivist agenda under the guise of attacking anything that "could possibly hurt their "feelings"...... by force of law.

It's a Hostile and Foreign ideology and what we're witnessing today is in-fact no accident.

But, Professor Rainmaker, where does it come from? Glad you asked.

Please take a moment to Educate yourselves Brothers.....

http://www.academia.org/the-origins-of-political-correctness/

Of course there's no shortage of men (that have been psychologically feminized) who are more than happy to tow the PC-Feminist line.

MikeKerriii
12-15-2015, 05:39 PM
Of course. Johnny made a joke while sitting in a room for two hours and the boss didn't like it. That's pretty important shit to get worked up about.

that is if you give an unsupported post on Reddit, from might well be a 12 Year old kid, any credence at all.

sandsjames
12-15-2015, 05:40 PM
that is if you give an unsupported post on Reddit, from might well be a 12 Year old kid, any credence at all.

No, I'm not giving it any credence. That's why we've moved on to a hypothetical. Keep up.

MikeKerriii
12-15-2015, 05:46 PM
There's a difference between Common Courtesy and Political correctness (PC).
. Being PC to your hero Ttrump, a the befuddled Doctor, means insisting on the truth, Something that Trump at least seems incapable of.

Otherwise PC is mostly manners, common courtesy, not being a bigot and being smarter than a stump.

Rusty Jones
12-15-2015, 05:49 PM
Say some fucked up shit that pisses people off and, on that basis ALONE, people will praise you for "not being afraid to speak the truth." Whether it's the "truth" or not.

giggawatt
12-15-2015, 06:47 PM
Well... are you sure he has a "good sense of humor?" Because he could just be going along to get along.

I take shots at Christianity here and on facebook, but I don't do it in person. Now is it because I'm afraid to say it to someone's face? No. Well, maybe, but not for the reasons you might think.

Here on MTF, we're nothing to each other but mere usernames and words on a screen. We can talk shit back to each other in ways that we're not able to in person.

If I was to talk about Christianity at work or to my friends and family the way I talk about it here, I'm creating a hostile environment. Not just for my coworkers, friends, and family... but for myself as well. This being the internet, we can talk shit right back or walk away. Either way, no one gives a fuck about a "hostile environment" on the internet.

That Muslim friend of yours? I'm not so sure he'd get away with comebacks that involve bashing Christianity. And even if he could, he'd only be making the environment even more hostile for himself. So he probably shuts up and takes it.

Think of him as the black guy that makes black jokes himself and doesn't care if his white friends make black jokes.

Bos Mutus
12-15-2015, 09:24 PM
Think of him as the black guy that makes black jokes himself and doesn't care if his white friends make black jokes.

All well and good at the bar on Friday night...that's their business...doesn't belong in the workplace.

As a supervisor...whether I'm black or not, and whether or not I think the black guy is bothered by it...it's my job to put a stop to it, if I feel it is inappropriate.

That doesn't mean that I'm "trying to tell the black guy to be offended and file a complaint."

First of all...I don't need his complaint, so I question this story anyway. We have workplace standards. You don't have to be black to put a stop to black jokes in the workplace...or Muslim joke or whatever....Nor is it required that anyone be offended for the comment to be deemed inappropriate.. The "higher ups" didn't need that Muslim guy to "file a complaint"...so, I don't get that point. I wouldn't be trying to tell someone they should be offended...the excuse that "No, James is cool with it" doesn't matter.

Secondly, any person doesn't have to be offended for that shit to come out down the road somewhere and embarrass the entire unit...as mentioned above, someone might be laughing it off at this time, but it could show up later.

Lastly, any workplace also has some social dynamic to it...no such thing as acting as professionals at all times...the understanding of what is a good-natured ribbing seems to have been lost by some...there can too be a bit of racial context to a good-natured ribbing...happens all the time..

sandsjames
12-15-2015, 10:03 PM
All well and good at the bar on Friday night...that's their business...doesn't belong in the workplace.

As a supervisor...whether I'm black or not, and whether or not I think the black guy is bothered by it...it's my job to put a stop to it, if I feel it is inappropriate.

That doesn't mean that I'm "trying to tell the black guy to be offended and file a complaint."

First of all...I don't need his complaint, so I question this story anyway. We have workplace standards. You don't have to be black to put a stop to black jokes in the workplace...or Muslim joke or whatever....Nor is it required that anyone be offended for the comment to be deemed inappropriate.. The "higher ups" didn't need that Muslim guy to "file a complaint"...so, I don't get that point. I wouldn't be trying to tell someone they should be offended...the excuse that "No, James is cool with it" doesn't matter.

Secondly, any person doesn't have to be offended for that shit to come out down the road somewhere and embarrass the entire unit...as mentioned above, someone might be laughing it off at this time, but it could show up later.

Lastly, any workplace also has some social dynamic to it...no such thing as acting as professionals at all times...the understanding of what is a good-natured ribbing seems to have been lost by some...there can too be a bit of racial context to a good-natured ribbing...happens all the time..

You sound like an NCOA/SNCOA instructor. Very idealistic...much less realistic.

Bos Mutus
12-15-2015, 10:06 PM
You sound like an NCOA/SNCOA instructor. Very idealistic...much less realistic.

Oh please...I've been leading and managing in real settings for many years.

What too idealistic? That you as a supervisor needed someone to complain before you take action? That's realistic?

Oh..that as a non-supervisor you've worked in places that had lots of racial jokes going around and the leaders did nothing because no one complained?

What exactly was idealistic about my post?

sandsjames
12-15-2015, 10:14 PM
Oh please...I've been leading and managing in real settings for many years. And you don't think the guys you've led are making these comments when you're not around? That's naive at best.


What too idealistic? That you as a supervisor needed someone to complain before you take action? That's realistic? Yes, that's realistic. No need to create a problem when there isn't one.


Oh..that as a non-supervisor you've worked in places that had lots of racial jokes going around and the leaders did nothing because no one complained? As a supervisor jokes went around...racial, sexual, age, etc...everyone knew the limits. It's called basic human interaction.


People learn the boundaries of their work environment and stay within them. Does it go to far sometimes? Of course, but that's going to happen no matter how well you lay out the black and white.

Bos Mutus
12-15-2015, 10:28 PM
And you don't think the guys you've led are making these comments when you're not around? That's naive at best.

Would probably be naïve...but am not sure where you got that out of my post. Where did I say this doesn't go on when I'm not around?


Yes, that's realistic. No need to create a problem when there isn't one.

On the contrary...telling someone they were inappropriate in their comments, even when no one is offended, is preventing a problem, not creating one.


As a supervisor jokes went around...racial, sexual, age, etc...everyone knew the limits. It's called basic human interaction.

You obviously assigned you own meaning to my post.

Please re-read the last paragraph about the social environment again..."good-natured ribbing"..."can include racial context"

This is what I said.



People learn the boundaries of their work environment and stay within them.

Sometimes, they learn those boundaries because a leader tells them directly.

Sometimes...a leader needs to do that




Does it go to far sometimes? Of course, but that's going to happen no matter how well you lay out the black and white.

...and, Mr. Realistic...what do YOU do when it crosses the line? nothing, because you're so realistic? Or nothing if no one complains? That's not leadership.

And "when it goes to far"...I use my own judgement to determine if/when it has..hence, why I said "if I feel it's inappropriate"...I certainly don't need to talk someone into being offended...this was what I said.

I don't think you read what I wrote...you read what you thought I was going to write

MikeKerriii
12-15-2015, 10:31 PM
And you don't think the guys you've led are making these comments when you're not around? That's naive at best. When you are not around you are not being negligent by not stopping it. When you know it is happening you are failing your responsibilities if you fail to.


Yes, that's realistic. No need to create a problem when there isn't one.There is a problem, refusing to see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

sandsjames
12-15-2015, 10:38 PM
Would probably be naïve...but am not sure where you got that out of my post. Where did I say this doesn't go on when I'm not around? Well, if you make the lines so clear and ensure your guys are professionals at all times then it wouldn't.



On the contrary...telling someone they were inappropriate in their comments, even when no one is offended, is preventing a problem, not creating one.




Please re-read the last paragraph about the social environment again..."good-natured ribbing"..."can include racial context"

This is what I said. I didn't miss that, I ignored it because it doesn't fit with the rest of your post. How do you determine what "good-natured" ribbing is? Do you wait until someone comes to you to complain? I'm pretty sure you said you stop that before it happens?




Sometimes, they learn those boundaries because a leader tells them directly.

Sometimes...a leader needs to do that What a leader does is create a comfortable environment. That's usually far from a "professional" environment.





...and, Mr. Realistic...what do YOU do when it crosses the line? nothing, because you're so realistic? Or nothing if no one complains? That's not leadership. That's right...if no one complains than it's not an issue. We're all adults. As a supervisor, you make it clear that people can come to you. You make it clear that you will support them, no matter what. That way, if there is an issue they let you know and you fix it. You consistently show that you have the best interest of your workers in mind. When you do this, they aren't afraid to come to you if there's an issue.


And "when it goes to far"...I use my own judgement to determine if/when it has..hence, why I said "if I feel it's inappropriate"...I certainly don't need to talk someone into being offended...this was what I said. Yes, if you feel it's inappropriate. And that's the type of thing that makes people walk on egg shells.

I'm getting ready to go on a road trip. My tires are supposed to have 34PSI, but I'm going to fill them up to 40PSI because I'm gonna be driving a couple thousand miles and I'm probably going to lose air pressure along the way. Better to be safe than sorry. Other than the fact the the tires will probably blow up in my face. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

sandsjames
12-15-2015, 10:39 PM
When you are not around you are not being negligent by not stopping it. When you know it is happening you are failing your responsibilities if you fail to.
There is a problem, refusing to see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Ahh, I see...so it's a "Cover Your Ass" type thing. That's always what I look for in a leader.

Bos Mutus
12-15-2015, 11:23 PM
Well, if you make the lines so clear and ensure your guys are professionals at all times then it wouldn't.

not sure what rabbit hole you are going down, but it's not one that I dug.



I didn't miss that, I ignored it because it doesn't fit with the rest of your post. How do you determine what "good-natured" ribbing is?

I'm smart that way. Are you saying there is no way you can tell if something is inappropriate until someone complains?


Do you wait until someone comes to you to complain?

I try not to.


I'm pretty sure you said you stop that before it happens?

Doesn't mean there are never complaints...I was responding to the situation where the "higher ups" were supposedly "trying to tell a Muslim to be offended and file a complaint"

I find that an unrealistic situation.

But, what you are saying is you allow this all to continue until someone has a problem with it...that's not leadership, that's a reactive spineless person with rank.


What a leader does is create a comfortable environment. That's usually far from a "professional" environment.

Maybe where you work. Creating a comfortable environment is not really one of my concerns...productive, professional, innovative...yeah, I'll do those, you do comfortable.


That's right...if no one complains than it's not an issue.[/quo

This is false. Maybe you should've actually listened in NCOA instead of dismissing it. It's not idealistic to be proactive to solve minor issues before they become major ones...but, I realize you've never actually been responsible for leading an organization.

[quote] We're all adults. As a supervisor, you make it clear that people can come to you. You make it clear that you will support them, no matter what. That way, if there is an issue they let you know and you fix it. You consistently show that you have the best interest of your workers in mind. When you do this, they aren't afraid to come to you if there's an issue.

No...if you stand around an do nothing until someone complains...you're guilty of collusion.


Yes, if you feel it's inappropriate. And that's the type of thing that makes people walk on egg shells.

Better than being so ball-less that you try and talk someone into filing a complaint because you don't feel capable of handling the issue without it actually bothering someone.

Yuck...

But, I do know that my employees do not feel like they need to walk on eggshells...



I'm getting ready to go on a road trip. My tires are supposed to have 34PSI, but I'm going to fill them up to 40PSI because I'm gonna be driving a couple thousand miles and I'm probably going to lose air pressure along the way. Better to be safe than sorry. Other than the fact the the tires will probably blow up in my face. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Actually...your tires will gain pressure as you drive on them and heat up them up. Are you trying to say that?

But, I don't know what this has to do with the situation we're discussing. You're the one that says if the tire isn't blowing up, don't worry about it until it does...I'm the one saying take action before a problem happens...but overinflating them isn't the right action, of course.

A more appropriate analogy would be the tires are sitting at 24 PSI, but you leave them alone because you don't wanna rock the boat and they haven't blown out yet...while a responsible leader would inflate them to 34 PSI

Whatever...we can go back and forth talking "oh what ifs"...and it will come down to same thing leadership issues usually come down to with you...that is that you and all the people who have never led a unit would be way better at it than all of us who have...

Meh..

sandsjames
12-16-2015, 12:23 AM
I'm smart that way. Are you saying there is no way you can tell if something is inappropriate until someone complains? I'm saying that "appropriate" is subjective.





But, what you are saying is you allow this all to continue until someone has a problem with it...that's not leadership, that's a reactive spineless person with rank. There's nothing to allow or not allow...there is no issue. You've seen "Minority Report", right?




Maybe where you work. Creating a comfortable environment is not really one of my concerns...productive, professional, innovative...yeah, I'll do those, you do comfortable. A comfortable environment creates a productive, professional, innovative environment.


This is false. Maybe you should've actually listened in NCOA instead of dismissing it. Didn't really feel like listening to a guy who hadn't been in a shop since he was an Amn, then became a T.I., then a recruiter, then an NCOA instructor tell me how things are "supposed to work".




No...if you stand around an do nothing until someone complains...you're guilty of collusion. If there is no problem and you invent one then you are guilty of being a DB.





Actually...your tires will gain pressure as you drive on them and heat up them up. Are you trying to say that?

But, I don't know what this has to do with the situation we're discussing. You're the one that says if the tire isn't blowing up, don't worry about it until it does...I'm the one saying take action before a problem happens...but overinflating them isn't the right action, of course.

A more appropriate analogy would be the tires are sitting at 24 PSI, but you leave them alone because you don't wanna rock the boat and they haven't blown out yet...while a responsible leader would inflate them to 34 PSI No...I'm saying there's no need to add air to them because they will inflate as they heat up, so there is no problem, but you want to air them up before hand which, ultimately, does nothing except create a dangerous situation.


Whatever...we can go back and forth talking "oh what ifs"...and it will come down to same thing leadership issues usually come down to with you...that is that you and all the people who have never led a unit would be way better at it than all of us who have...

Meh..I always wonder when the exact moment is that people turn into the people they always say they will never become.

Bos Mutus
12-16-2015, 01:59 AM
I'm saying that "appropriate" is subjective.

sure it is....and as a leader it's your job to make the call.

any idiot can discern black and white




There's nothing to allow or not allow...there is no issue. You've seen "Minority Report", right?


no...one of these days



A comfortable environment creates a productive, professional, innovative environment.

Didn't really feel like listening to a guy who hadn't been in a shop since he was an Amn, then became a T.I., then a recruiter, then an NCOA instructor tell me how things are "supposed to work".

If there is no problem and you invent one then you are guilty of being a DB.

No...I'm saying there's no need to add air to them because they will inflate as they heat up, so there is no problem, but you want to air them up before hand which, ultimately, does nothing except create a dangerous situation.

ot going to continue arguing a poor analogy


I always wonder when the exact moment is that people turn into the people they always say they will never become.



But none of this explains why some higher up would be trying to talk someone into filing a complaint....

sandsjames
12-16-2015, 02:06 AM
sure it is....and as a leader it's your job to make the call.

any idiot can discern black and white



no...one of these days



ot going to continue arguing a poor analogy


Just because you choose not to understand the analogy doesn't mean it's poor...here..I'll break it down:

Tire pressure is fine = people get along and are productive
Over inflate tires in case they lose pressure = restrict what troops say in case someone gets offended
Tire blows up because they were fine as they were = people "blow up" because they were fine as they were

MikeKerriii
12-16-2015, 03:07 AM
Ahh, I see...so it's a "Cover Your Ass" type thing. That's always what I look for in a leader.
It is a doing you duty/job kind of thing. Ignoring that is shirking your duty and being a piss poor NCO. It has nothing to do with covering your ass and I never implied it did.

MikeKerriii
12-16-2015, 03:12 AM
Tire pressure is fine = people get along and are productive
Over inflate tires in case they lose pressure = restrict what troops say in case someone gets offended
Tire blows up because they were fine as they were = people "blow up" because they were fine as they were It is not becasue they might be offended is is that are breaking regulations in a way that is prejudicial to good order and discipline. Or do you somehow think regulations are optional?

Bos Mutus
12-16-2015, 03:45 AM
Just because you choose not to understand the analogy doesn't mean it's poor...here..I'll break it down:

Tire pressure is fine = people get along and are productive
Over inflate tires in case they lose pressure = restrict what troops say in case someone gets offended
Tire blows up because they were fine as they were = people "blow up" because they were fine as they were

If the tire pressure was fine, I wouldn't find it inappropriate.

I understand it...poor analogy. Why would anyone find good tire pressure inappropriate and inflate it to an inappropriate level...that's just dumb.

What I said was that, if I find a comment inappropriate (for example LOW tire pressure) in a section that I'm supposed to be the leader of...i'm going to do something about it (for example, inflate it to a proper amount).

You're argument against that is if no one complains (for example the tire whining), then the comment isn't inappropriate (doesn't need to be checked with a gage), and I should just let things go until someone does complain (the tire blows out)?

All I'm saying, is that just cuz the tires ain't whining, doesn't mean the pressure is fine...

What you are defending...is that there is never an inappropriate comment unless someone complains about it...that is idiotic, reactive, spineless leadership....not really leadership at all, it's sitting on your ass until your people have to come tell you that you should do something...yuck!

FYI...that guy that comes tell you...is probably the real leader of the group. you just have the position.

Do you really wanna work in a section where your coworkers act like jackasses until you have to go complain to the boss that people are acting like jackasses?

"Oh gee...all my guys are playing grab ass and using racial slurs...I guess as long as they all like it I'll let it continue."

...talk bout the animals running the zoo!

Absinthe Anecdote
12-16-2015, 05:01 AM
If the tire pressure was fine, I wouldn't find it inappropriate.

I understand it...poor analogy. Why would anyone find good tire pressure inappropriate and inflate it to an inappropriate level...that's just dumb.

What I said was that, if I find a comment inappropriate (for example LOW tire pressure) in a section that I'm supposed to be the leader of...i'm going to do something about it (for example, inflate it to a proper amount).

You're argument against that is if no one complains (for example the tire whining), then the comment isn't inappropriate (doesn't need to be checked with a gage), and I should just let things go until someone does complain (the tire blows out)?

All I'm saying, is that just cuz the tires ain't whining, doesn't mean the pressure is fine...

What you are defending...is that there is never an inappropriate comment unless someone complains about it...that is idiotic, reactive, spineless leadership....not really leadership at all, it's sitting on your ass until your people have to come tell you that you should do something...yuck!

FYI...that guy that comes tell you...is probably the real leader of the group. you just have the position.

Do you really wanna work in a section where your coworkers act like jackasses until you have to go complain to the boss that people are acting like jackasses?

"Oh gee...all my guys are playing grab ass and using racial slurs...I guess as long as they all like it I'll let it continue."

...talk bout the animals running the zoo!

If one of your tires is whining it is best to take it to the junkyard, especially if it is a size E-6/75R/15.

Once a tire like that starts whining, it will undermine what the other tires are doing.

It will also claim that it knows more about driving the car than experienced and proven drivers, when it doesn't.

The next thing you know, it can't pass a tire PT test and is making more noise than ever.

It is best to get rid of it the first chance you get.

I would say make a tomato planter out of it, but your tomatoes will probably taste bitter.

giggawatt
12-16-2015, 06:58 AM
All well and good at the bar on Friday night...that's their business...doesn't belong in the workplace.

As a supervisor...whether I'm black or not, and whether or not I think the black guy is bothered by it...it's my job to put a stop to it, if I feel it is inappropriate.

That doesn't mean that I'm "trying to tell the black guy to be offended and file a complaint."

First of all...I don't need his complaint, so I question this story anyway. We have workplace standards. You don't have to be black to put a stop to black jokes in the workplace...or Muslim joke or whatever....Nor is it required that anyone be offended for the comment to be deemed inappropriate.. The "higher ups" didn't need that Muslim guy to "file a complaint"...so, I don't get that point. I wouldn't be trying to tell someone they should be offended...the excuse that "No, James is cool with it" doesn't matter.

Secondly, any person doesn't have to be offended for that shit to come out down the road somewhere and embarrass the entire unit...as mentioned above, someone might be laughing it off at this time, but it could show up later.

Lastly, any workplace also has some social dynamic to it...no such thing as acting as professionals at all times...the understanding of what is a good-natured ribbing seems to have been lost by some...there can too be a bit of racial context to a good-natured ribbing...happens all the time..

First, I wasn't there. This is from what he was saying. He was the one that found it funny that people were trying to make him feel like he should be offended. Not so much telling him. At least that's the impression he was getting. He would have no issues reporting anything he found to be over the line, to the boss or higher, or shutting it down right away. He's been to the IG before so it's not a matter of keeping the peace.

Bos Mutus
12-16-2015, 12:38 PM
At least that's the impression he was getting.

Okay...that's the key to the story.

sandsjames
12-16-2015, 12:46 PM
If one of your tires is whining it is best to take it to the junkyard, especially if it is a size E-6/75R/15.

Once a tire like that starts whining, it will undermine what the other tires are doing.

It will also claim that it knows more about driving the car than experienced and proven drivers, when it doesn't.

The next thing you know, it can't pass a tire PT test and is making more noise than ever.

It is best to get rid of it the first chance you get.

I would say make a tomato planter out of it, but your tomatoes will probably taste bitter.

Sure am glad you're back to your "one trick pony" comments. You must have been bored as hell when I wasn't around...and confused...trying to come up with new schtick. But you can chill now...cut and paste your old comments to respond to all my posts. It will save you having to type the same tired shit over and over.

Mjölnir
12-16-2015, 01:40 PM
Sure am glad you're back to your "one trick pony" comments.

Made me think of this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yo75VXeNuQE/VIJA5b_4GGI/AAAAAAACFbE/Fzr16Q8AoK0/s1600/rainbow_dash___dash_with_it_by_mysteriouskaos-d5cu0zq.png

SomeRandomGuy
12-16-2015, 01:51 PM
First, I wasn't there. This is from what he was saying. He was the one that found it funny that people were trying to make him feel like he should be offended. Not so much telling him. At least that's the impression he was getting. He would have no issues reporting anything he found to be over the line, to the boss or higher, or shutting it down right away. He's been to the IG before so it's not a matter of keeping the peace.

It still sounded like the original joke was a bit over the line. I saw a funny meme on Facebook yesterday it said, "Just to prove men are better at everything, we won woman of the year" then it has a picture of Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner.

To me, that's a funny joke. I laughed, I shared it. Would I post that joke on the work bulletin board? No, I definitely wouldn't I probably wouldn't even forward it through email. Let's say someone does send that joke around the office though. A few of the women see it and they laugh. Does that mean it is appropriate? What happens the next time they don't get put in for an award? Are they coming back to that joke and say, MSgt XXX thinks men are better at everything, that's why he never puts in women for an award"

It's best just to cut the questionable jokes off. That doesn't mean you can't tell them at the bar or laugh at them. Probably a good idea to keep them out of the work environment though.


P.S. One more example. I worked in a shop with a lady that had a mentally retarded child. I've heard people say "that's retarded" referring to something being dumb or stupid. It really offended this woman when people used that phrase. If she wasn't around and someone said that I'd usually let them know It wasn't a smart idea. Just because no one was around to be offended doesn't mean it is a good idea to use offensive words. You never know when someone is offended but just doesn't speak up until one day when they snap.

giggawatt
12-16-2015, 03:11 PM
Sure am glad you're back to your "one trick pony" comments. You must have been bored as hell when I wasn't around...and confused...trying to come up with new schtick. But you can chill now...cut and paste your old comments to respond to all my posts. It will save you having to type the same tired shit over and over.

Did you mean to do this?

Absinthe Anecdote
12-16-2015, 03:11 PM
Sure am glad you're back to your "one trick pony" comments. You must have been bored as hell when I wasn't around...and confused...trying to come up with new schtick. But you can chill now...cut and paste your old comments to respond to all my posts. It will save you having to type the same tired shit over and over.

I don't know much about ponies, but horses wicker, whinny and neigh. So I don't think ponies whine.

Bad analogy.

giggawatt
12-16-2015, 03:13 PM
Okay...that's the key to the story.

Indeed. I left it out of my original post because I was hasty in my posting. I guess you could say my reply to the thread was...


post haste.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-16-2015, 03:18 PM
It still sounded like the original joke was a bit over the line. I saw a funny meme on Facebook yesterday it said, "Just to prove men are better at everything, we won woman of the year" then it has a picture of Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner.

To me, that's a funny joke. I laughed, I shared it. Would I post that joke on the work bulletin board? No, I definitely wouldn't I probably wouldn't even forward it through email. Let's say someone does send that joke around the office though. A few of the women see it and they laugh. Does that mean it is appropriate? What happens the next time they don't get put in for an award? Are they coming back to that joke and say, MSgt XXX thinks men are better at everything, that's why he never puts in women for an award"

It's best just to cut the questionable jokes off. That doesn't mean you can't tell them at the bar or laugh at them. Probably a good idea to keep them out of the work environment though.


P.S. One more example. I worked in a shop with a lady that had a mentally retarded child. I've heard people say "that's retarded" referring to something being dumb or stupid. It really offended this woman when people used that phrase. If she wasn't around and someone said that I'd usually let them know It wasn't a smart idea. Just because no one was around to be offended doesn't mean it is a good idea to use offensive words. You never know when someone is offended but just doesn't speak up until one day when they snap.

This is more reasonable.

It is a plain and direct explanation that talks about being a good leader.

Unlike the weak and spineless Sandsjames model of leadership.

Plus, it doesn't make use of bad analogies about ponies and over inflated tires.

I can understand what your point is. Sounds like you have actually been a leader and not a disgruntled mid-level NCO who went to the NCOA with a bad attitude.

sandsjames
12-16-2015, 03:46 PM
Did you mean to do this?

LOL...good catch.

sandsjames
12-16-2015, 03:50 PM
Sounds like you have actually been a leader and not a disgruntled mid-level NCO who went to the NCOA with a bad attitude.I actually went with a good attitude, looking forward to learning something helpful. Then I was taught that bullet statements are only supposed to be two parts, not three. Of course when I mentioned this to my supervisor once I got back to my base, he said that it didn't matter what they taught us because "everywhere uses three part" and "it's always been that way". The Chief concurred. So that was a major eye opener about how leadership is cool making up policies as they go, even if they conflict with AFIs and AETC accredited courses, as long as it fits their preference.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-16-2015, 04:05 PM
I actually went with a good attitude, looking forward to learning something helpful. Then I was taught that bullet statements are only supposed to be two parts, not three. Of course when I mentioned this to my supervisor once I got back to my base, he said that it didn't matter what they taught us because "everywhere uses three part" and "it's always been that way". The Chief concurred. So that was a major eye opener about how leadership is cool making up policies as they go, even if they conflict with AFIs and AETC accredited courses, as long as it fits their preference.

I've never seen a three part bullet, that must be a PowerPro thing.

Well, at least they didn't tell you to shut up or give you an order.

Because you told Rastus that that kind of thing never happens in the Air Force.

I bet you could have convinced them to get inline with what NCOA was teaching if you explained it to them better.

You didn't use one of your bad analogies about snow tires and ponies writing EPRs, did you?

MikeKerriii
12-16-2015, 04:06 PM
I actually went with a good attitude, looking forward to learning something helpful. Then I was taught that bullet statements are only supposed to be two parts, not three. Of course when I mentioned this to my supervisor once I got back to my base, he said that it didn't matter what they taught us because "everywhere uses three part" and "it's always been that way". The Chief concurred. So that was a major eye opener about how leadership is cool making up policies as they go, even if they conflict with AFIs and AETC accredited courses, as long as it fits their preference.

That as has been true of every military since the Sargon the Greats army at least, especially on trivia like how many parts are in a bullet point. You were a NCO when you learned that basic fact of military life?

sandsjames
12-16-2015, 04:09 PM
That as has been true of every military since the Sargon the Greats army at least, especially on trivia like how many parts are in a bullet point. You were a NCO when you learned that basic fact of military life?

That's not when I learned it. That's when all the stuff I'd been "whining" about was confirmed.

MikeKerriii
12-16-2015, 04:17 PM
That's not when I learned it. That's when all the stuff I'd been "whining" about was confirmed.

Then you were not paying attention, I learns all of that an the futility of whining about it before I put on A1C, much less before I became an NCO as a E-4, That is A comes before B level of knowledge in mitary life, Just like the danger of allowing an officer to even hold a screwdriver.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-16-2015, 04:26 PM
See SJ, even Mike says you shouldn't whine.

Well, I think that is what he said.

sandsjames
12-16-2015, 04:29 PM
See SJ, even Mike says you shouldn't whine.

Well, I think that is what he said.

I think that's what he said, too. I wish I learns that.