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View Full Version : Air Force to Triple Maternity Leave to 18 Weeks, Top Civilian Says



Bos Mutus
12-10-2015, 08:23 PM
The U.S. Air Force (http://www.military.com/air-force) plans to triple maternity leave for female airmen, the service's top civilian has announced.

The change would expand the leave from six weeks to 18 weeks and was inspired by a similar move by the Navy (http://www.military.com/navy), Air Force Secretary Deborah Lee James said on Tuesday during a video town hall filmed at Fort Meade, Maryland (http://www.military.com/base-guide/fort-george-g-meade).

"I believe in what the Navy did, I think it was the right thing to do, and we're going to do the same thing," she said.

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/12/10/air-force-to-triple-maternity-leave-18-weeks-top-civilian-says.html?ESRC=todayinmil.sm



18 weeks...that's 4+ months.

Long time...is this paid leave does anyone know?

Rusty Jones
12-10-2015, 08:30 PM
18 weeks...that's 4+ months.

Long time...is this paid leave does anyone know?

If it's an expansion of the current six week program, then it only stands to reason that it is.

What you're seeing here is the military trying to compete with the private sector. Which is fine, but I can think of better ways to do it than this.

Check out this link here:

http://taskandpurpose.com/the-cost-of-treating-troops-as-free-labor-providers/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_content=tp-facebook&utm_campaign=culture

I'll start a new thread on it.

sandsjames
12-10-2015, 08:30 PM
18 weeks...that's 4+ months.

Long time...is this paid leave does anyone know?I believe it is...pretty much the same as convalescent leave, I think.

Airborne
12-12-2015, 10:13 AM
Considering we are now serving in a military where women are 100% equal to men. It would only be fair if the fathers were granted the same amount of time off.

sandsjames
12-12-2015, 12:07 PM
Considering we are now serving in a military where women are 100% equal to men. It would only be fair if the fathers were granted the same amount of time off.

I hope you're being sarcastic here.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-12-2015, 01:10 PM
The military isn't the the type of job that you want to have while raising children.

Despite all the talk and programs to extend maternity leave, it isn't a good job if seeing your kids Is a high priority.

It sucks even more if you get divorced and end up on the other side of the planet from your kids.

No one ever talks about that, but it happens a lot.

Rusty Jones
12-12-2015, 01:56 PM
The military isn't the the type of job that you want to have while raising children.

Despite all the talk and programs to extend maternity leave, it isn't a good job if seeing your kids Is a high priority.

It sucks even more if you get divorced and end up on the other side of the planet from your kids.

No one ever talks about that, but it happens a lot.

I think the whole point of this is that they're changing, and it already has over the decades. Prior to Vietnam, it was pretty much was the way it is when you read Beetle Bailey on Sundays: the whole platoon lived in an open bay barracks building (i.e., the white houses or the half tin cans), while the Platoon Sergeant had his own room that was sectioned off.

People making careers in order to provide for their families... that's new. The military is changing to accommodate that, and it looks like they feel that there's more work left to be done.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-12-2015, 02:10 PM
I think the whole point of this is that they're changing, and it already has over the decades. Prior to Vietnam, it was pretty much was the way it is when you read Beetle Bailey on Sundays: the whole platoon lived in an open bay barracks building (i.e., the white houses or the half tin cans), while the Platoon Sergeant had his own room that was sectioned off.

People making careers in order to provide for their families... that's new. The military is changing to accommodate that, and it looks like they feel that there's more work left to be done.

The move toward career military personnel started post WWII with the Air Force pioneering much of it.

After the draft ended, then it had to gain momentum.

The expanded maternity leave might help with retention of females, but my point is from the perspective of a parent.

Being in the military still isn't the ideal job when you have kids. Maternity leave is a drop in the bucket compared to getting deployed.

Not much that can or should be done about that either. It is the nature of the job.

USN - Retired
12-12-2015, 05:23 PM
There's no need for maternity leave (and there's also no need for paternity leave).

So the question is: when should a female military service member return to duty after giving birth? The answer is easy - She should return to duty as soon as the appropriate military doctor says that she is medically fit for duty. If the woman wants to spend some time with her little baby, then she can use her regular leave. If that isn't good enough, then she probably shouldn't be in the military.

Many will say that the mommy needs time to bond with her new baby. That is a precious thought; however, it is very misguided. There is simply no way for a person in the military (male or female) to be the primary caregiver of a child, especially when that person is on deployment. Since a woman on active duty can not possibly be the primary caregiver of her child, it is best to let the child bond with the person who will be the child's primary caregiver.

MikeKerriii
12-12-2015, 07:59 PM
Considering we are now serving in a military where women are 100% equal to men. It would only be fair if the fathers were granted the same amount of time off.
That is what happens in most of the rest of the Western world

Shrike
12-13-2015, 04:36 AM
I remember pissing off a woman in my NCOA class. She had five children. I told her (mainly because I was bored and am mostly Irish, meaning I like to start arguments) that she should not be eligible for military retirement until 20 years and 30 weeks of service due to all the time she took off due to maternity leave, also known as "free time off due to personal lifestyle choices". I was mostly kidding...but looking at those numbers adjusted for 18 weeks maternity leave and it's a little eye-opening. The same woman with her five children would serve the equivalent of 18 years and three months on AD before being eligible for her pension. Plus, her work centers would need to cover for a cumulative 90 weeks of her absences.
I've been retired for a few years now, but I guess the OPSTEMPO has really lessened recently...

Airborne
12-13-2015, 10:53 AM
I hope you're being sarcastic here.

How is that sarcastic? In the Air Force, women can now be PJs, CCT, or TACP (and a few others). All AFSCs are now open to both sexes as long as the requirements are met. So now a woman can have a baby and get 18 (non-chargeable) weeks off, but the father of that child gets 5 days. Everything should be equal. I still may not have made my opinion crystal clear but I stand by it. And yes many more countries have better maternal and paternal laws than the US but, who gives a shit, we are the best country in the world!

sandsjames
12-13-2015, 11:09 AM
How is that sarcastic? In the Air Force, women can now be PJs, CCT, or TACP (and a few others). All AFSCs are now open to both sexes as long as the requirements are met. So now a woman can have a baby and get 18 (non-chargeable) weeks off, but the father of that child gets 5. Everything should be equal. I still may not have made my opinion crystal clear but I stand by it. And yes many more countries have better maternal and paternal laws than the US but, who gives a shit, we are the best country in the world!

Gotcha...and males should also be eligible to get a pap smear once every couple years.

Just because the government tries to tell us we're the same, it doesn't make it true. I see what you're trying to do...you're trying to play the "It's not fair" game. Are you the kind of guy who thinks that if one person works late that everyone else should also have to suffer because that's the only way to make if fair?

Can someone explain to me why people are so interested in what other people are doing? Control what you can control.

Airborne
12-13-2015, 11:26 AM
Gotcha...and males should also be eligible to get a pap smear once every couple years.

Just because the government tries to tell us we're the same, it doesn't make it true. I see what you're trying to do...you're trying to play the "It's not fair" game. Are you the kind of guy who thinks that if one person works late that everyone else should also have to suffer because that's the only way to make if fair?

Can someone explain to me why people are so interested in what other people are doing? Control what you can control.

Thanks for taking the statement out of context (and horribly so). Males should not be eligible for PAP-smears because, of course, they dont have a cervix. However, males should entitled to the same exams that prevent reproductive issues particular to them such as prostate or testicular exams. It is YOU indeed that has the problem with it not me.
The USAF has said that men and women are equal in the battlespace. They can fly aircraft, and be parachutists, now, the last frontier, Battlefield Airmen. So when a mil-mil couple has a baby the the mom gets 18 weeks off, but the dad only gets 5 days. You are right, I personally dont give two flaming shits about what others are doing. But one day I will supervise someone who does and I will have to explain to them that there are people in the world like sandsjames who live by the "f- it, I got mine" mentality so thats why the AF is the way it is.

sandsjames
12-13-2015, 11:43 AM
You are right, I personally dont give two flaming shits about what others are doing. But one day I will supervise someone who does and I will have to explain to them that there are people in the world like sandsjames who live by the "f- it, I got mine" mentality so thats why the AF is the way it is.I'm am arguing that fathers should be happy they get the 10 days that's given to them and quit bitching that the mother gets more time. I'll say it one last time, then I'm done with this...men and women are different. It's proven that breast feeding is much better than bottle feeding, even if the milk in the bottle is breast milk. In order for breast feeding to take place, the mother needs to be present. I know that the whole transgender thing is quite popular right now, but I don't think they've made it where daddy can lactate yet. Are you also the type who bitches when the married guy gets to leave to take his wife or kids to a doctors appointment while the single guy has to stay and pick up the slack? That's what I'm getting from you.

sandsjames
12-13-2015, 11:45 AM
I remember pissing off a woman in my NCOA class. She had five children. I told her (mainly because I was bored and am mostly Irish, meaning I like to start arguments) that she should not be eligible for military retirement until 20 years and 30 weeks of service due to all the time she took off due to maternity leave, also known as "free time off due to personal lifestyle choices". I was mostly kidding...but looking at those numbers adjusted for 18 weeks maternity leave and it's a little eye-opening. The same woman with her five children would serve the equivalent of 18 years and three months on AD before being eligible for her pension. Plus, her work centers would need to cover for a cumulative 90 weeks of her absences.
I've been retired for a few years now, but I guess the OPSTEMPO has really lessened recently...

It's been a long time since your avatar has been so relevant to a thread. You still haven't figured out a way to photoshop those heads out of the picture?

Airborne
12-13-2015, 11:56 AM
I'm am arguing that fathers should be happy they get the 10 days that's given to them and quit bitching that the mother gets more time. I'll say it one last time, then I'm done with this...men and women are different. It's proven that breast feeding is much better than bottle feeding, even if the milk in the bottle is breast milk. In order for breast feeding to take place, the mother needs to be present. I know that the whole transgender thing is quite popular right now, but I don't think they've made it where daddy can lactate yet. Are you also the type who bitches when the married guy gets to leave to take his wife or kids to a doctors appointment while the single guy has to stay and pick up the slack? That's what I'm getting from you.

You are getting from me what you want to get and spinning it towards the negative end of the spectrum. No I am not the type to bitch when the dude has to take his kids to the hospital. I am the type of guy that doesnt mind the guy with kids taking his kids to the hospital because I am the same supervisor that doesnt mind the single guy having to take time off for the refrigerator repair man to stop by because he doesnt have a wife to take care of that sort of task.

sandsjames
12-13-2015, 11:58 AM
You are getting from me what you want to get and spinning it towards the negative end of the spectrum. No I am not the type to bitch when the dude has to take his kids to the hospital. I am the type of guy that doesnt mind the guy with kids taking his kids to the hospital because I am the same supervisor that doesnt mind the single guy having to take time off for the refrigerator repair man to stop by because he doesnt have a wife to take care of that sort of task.

So what's your issue, then, with women getting more time off than men for a baby?

Airborne
12-13-2015, 12:03 PM
So what's your issue, then, with women getting more time off than men for a baby?

In the USAF (and the DoD at large) is it now established that women can serve in equal capacity to men? yes or no?

sandsjames
12-13-2015, 12:14 PM
In the USAF (and the DoD at large) is it now established that women can serve in equal capacity to men? yes or no?Listen, I get your point. If they're equal in battle and everything else, then time off for children should be equal. But we both know that, even though it's policy, it's just not true.

Airborne
12-13-2015, 12:24 PM
Listen, I get your point. If they're equal in battle and everything else, then time off for children should be equal.<snip>

We are done here.

sandsjames
12-13-2015, 12:27 PM
We are done here.

The argument you're making is a spiteful one, not based on your actual beliefs. But you know that.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-13-2015, 03:03 PM
I'm am arguing that fathers should be happy they get the 10 days that's given to them and quit bitching that the mother gets more time. I'll say it one last time, then I'm done with this...men and women are different. It's proven that breast feeding is much better than bottle feeding, even if the milk in the bottle is breast milk. In order for breast feeding to take place, the mother needs to be present. I know that the whole transgender thing is quite popular right now, but I don't think they've made it where daddy can lactate yet. Are you also the type who bitches when the married guy gets to leave to take his wife or kids to a doctors appointment while the single guy has to stay and pick up the slack? That's what I'm getting from you.

If a man takes female hormones, like the kind in birth control pills, he can lactate.

You should try it sometime and report back to us.

sandsjames
12-13-2015, 03:11 PM
If a man takes female hormones, like the kind in birth control pills, he can lactate.

You should try it sometime and report back to us.I'll give it a shot. We always end up throwing out milk because we don't drink it all before it goes bad, so this way we'd have it available when needed.

Bos Mutus
12-13-2015, 03:48 PM
Plus, her work centers would need to cover for a cumulative 90 weeks of her absences.


...and I think about, what if she is in a one-deep essential position...a commander, the base pediatrician, or something like that...I suppose if we survive with her going on a year long deployment, we can survive this, but it does seem like a long ass time to be off.

Bos Mutus
12-13-2015, 03:49 PM
If a man takes female hormones, like the kind in birth control pills, he can lactate.

You should try it sometime and report back to us.

Probably not enough to feed a baby, I bet

Absinthe Anecdote
12-13-2015, 03:57 PM
...and I think about, what if she is in a one-deep essential position...a commander, the base pediatrician, or something like that...I suppose if we survive with her going on a year long deployment, we can survive this, but it does seem like a long ass time to be off.

Most of the work will be done by robots in a few years so it won't matter much.

Just think of how many personnel problems will vanish when robots take over the daily duties in most shops.

People who don't know how to fix robots can just lay around and collect their basic wage.

USN - Retired
12-13-2015, 05:10 PM
...and quit bitching that the mother gets more time.

Your request is denied.


It's proven that breast feeding is much better than bottle feeding, even if the milk in the bottle is breast milk.

For mothers who are unable to breastfeed or who decide not to, infant formula is a healthy alternative. Formula provides babies with the nutrients they need to grow and thrive. If breastfeeding is really that important to a woman, then she shouldn't be in the military.


In order for breast feeding to take place, the mother needs to be present.

Not true. The mother can use a breast pump and store the breast milk.

USN - Retired
12-13-2015, 05:11 PM
So what's your issue, then, with women getting more time off than men for a baby?

There is no need for maternity leave. After giving birth, the female service member should return to duty as soon as she is medically fit for duty.

Rusty Jones
12-13-2015, 06:27 PM
...and I think about, what if she is in a one-deep essential position...a commander, the base pediatrician, or something like that...I suppose if we survive with her going on a year long deployment, we can survive this, but it does seem like a long ass time to be off.

I imagine that she'd be replaced immediately. How long are officer tours in the regular Air Force? They're 18 months for the Navy.

Rusty Jones
12-13-2015, 06:31 PM
Probably not enough to feed a baby, I bet

I remember reading an explanation once, about why male mammals have nipples. What I was reading was that the first male mammals actually did breastfeed their young.

It also stated that, during the Holocaust, there reports of men lactating. I can't recall whether it was over food deprivation or overwork, but apparently it can still happen in a real world situation without drugs.

sandsjames
12-13-2015, 07:02 PM
There is no need for maternity leave. After giving birth, the female service member should return to duty as soon as she is medically fit for duty.

How fit for duty is a mother who is worried about her newborn? I know your a Navy guy but, in the Air Force, there are 4 tenets of health. Physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. So though she may be physically fit for duty, she also needs to have the other 3 working too. As a man, you cannot understand the emotions and mentality of a woman who has just had a child. Hormones are messed up, for one thing. It's harder to pick up the slack of a person who's not in the shop than it is to pick up the slack of someone who is in the shop but is ineffective.

Rainmaker
12-13-2015, 07:57 PM
I remember pissing off a woman in my NCOA class. She had five children. I told her (mainly because I was bored and am mostly Irish, meaning I like to start arguments) that she should not be eligible for military retirement until 20 years and 30 weeks of service due to all the time she took off due to maternity leave, also known as "free time off due to personal lifestyle choices". I was mostly kidding...but looking at those numbers adjusted for 18 weeks maternity leave and it's a little eye-opening. The same woman with her five children would serve the equivalent of 18 years and three months on AD before being eligible for her pension. Plus, her work centers would need to cover for a cumulative 90 weeks of her absences.
I've been retired for a few years now, but I guess the OPSTEMPO has really lessened recently...

Damn them Kids have got some big heads!

Absinthe Anecdote
12-13-2015, 08:18 PM
I remember reading an explanation once, about why male mammals have nipples.

It is so they can dupe sailors and Marines into having sex with them.

Rainmaker
12-14-2015, 03:46 AM
I remember reading an explanation once, about why male mammals have nipples. .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xat1GVnl8-k

USN - Retired
12-14-2015, 07:01 AM
How fit for duty is a mother who is worried about her newborn? I know your a Navy guy but, in the Air Force, there are 4 tenets of health. Physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. So though she may be physically fit for duty, she also needs to have the other 3 working too. As a man, you cannot understand the emotions and mentality of a woman who has just had a child. Hormones are messed up, for one thing. It's harder to pick up the slack of a person who's not in the shop than it is to pick up the slack of someone who is in the shop but is ineffective.

So will that "worry" suddenly decrease substantially after 18 weeks of maternity leave?

In addition to the 18 weeks of maternity leave, Navy policy dictates that a female sailor will stay on shore duty for a year after she gives birth. The mommy sailor also has her 30 days of regular leave during that year and probably lots of time off during federal holidays and weekends. Many people think it is so nice and proper that the mommy and baby will have lots of time to "bond" during the child's first year of life. But what happens when that year is up and the mommy has to go on deployment? Encouraging a female member of the military to often assume the role of primary caregiver of her child during the first year of that child's life will only make the situation harder and more painful in the long run for both of them when that mommy is ordered to deploy for weeks or months at a time. If a female member of the military decides to have a child, then she should not even try to be the primary caregiver of her child.

It is a tough pill for many people to swallow.

Mjölnir
12-14-2015, 02:39 PM
Maternity leave (in addition to convalescent leave) is mostly a Human Resources based initiative designed to boost retention in female service members. No, it is not a strict 'need' of the military mission, but is designed to improve quality of life.

Part of the maternity leave rationale is based on medical studies that show that the bonding between a mother and infant in the first year of life is critical to the psychological development of a child (the child actually benefits more than the mother in the long run.)

Once the mother returns to full duty, then she is (under both old and current policy) expected to assume all her appropriate duties to her job. Once she returns to full duty deployments may be part of those duties. Separation from family is never easy for a mother ... or father; it is part of what we do and one of the sacrifices we make.

Rusty Jones
12-14-2015, 02:58 PM
Maternity leave (in addition to convalescent leave) is mostly a Human Resources based initiative designed to boost retention in female service members. No, it is not a strict 'need' of the military mission, but is designed to improve quality of life.

Part of the maternity leave rationale is based on medical studies that show that the bonding between a mother and infant in the first year of life is critical to the psychological development of a child (the child actually benefits more than the mother in the long run.)

Once the mother returns to full duty, then she is (under both old and current policy) expected to assume all her appropriate duties to her job. Once she returns to full duty deployments may be part of those duties. Separation from family is never easy for a mother ... or father; it is part of what we do and one of the sacrifices we make.

Women have their unique needs. When it comes to PT tests, maternity leave, and everything else... it really pains to me to see grown men bitching about it not being "fair."

If the men here want people to respect the differences between men and women and, in particular, what distinguishes them as men; then they need to respect what distinguishes women as women.

MikeKerriii
12-14-2015, 04:33 PM
So will that "worry" suddenly decrease substantially after 18 weeks of maternity leave?

In addition to the 18 weeks of maternity leave, Navy policy dictates that a female sailor will stay on shore duty for a year after she gives birth. The mommy sailor also has her 30 days of regular leave during that year and probably lots of time off during federal holidays and weekends. Many people think it is so nice and proper that the mommy and baby will have lots of time to "bond" during the child's first year of life. But what happens when that year is up and the mommy has to go on deployment? Encouraging a female member of the military to often assume the role of primary caregiver of her child during the first year of that child's life will only make the situation harder and more painful in the long run for both of them when that mommy is ordered to deploy for weeks or months at a time. If a female member of the military decides to have a child, then she should not even try to be the primary caregiver of her child.

It is a tough pill for many people to swallow.

I served, probably, about as long as you did. The only folks I found that had problems with maternity leave were those that had problems with women in general and/or military women .

Healthy babies with a great start are good for the nation, maternity leave helps ensure that. That the mitary is increasing becoming dependent on the children of those us that have served makes it even a greater benefit.

The cost is relatively trivial and the benefits are substantial.

Rainmaker
12-14-2015, 04:39 PM
... it really pains to me to see grown men bitching about it not being "fair."

If.

Unfortunately, this kind of bitching is the predictable -backlash, to a Sinister, Far-Left, "progressive" reverse eugenics plan, to turn all Western Nations from Patriarchal societies into Matriarchal societies.

While, It's Natural to give in and start treating women like men (meaning like shit). Don't take the bait.

Men need to always remember, that whenever we give in to nature. that is the very definition of sin.

As Men we are called to be Heads of our families and our society not just act like stupid animals with no impulse control.

Therefore, A good rule of thumb is to always do the opposite of what Progressives say.

When They say "be a faggot pussy". Be a man.

When They say "don't have kids". Have as many as you can.

When They say "walk away and let the state take care of them". Support your Kids

When They say "cheat on your wife". Be true to your vows.

When They say "don't eat meat". Eat tons of Steak.

When They say "don't lift weights". Get strong as hell.

When They say "don't drive a car". Buy a Monster Truck.

When They say" don't own guns". Buy an arsenal.

When They say "You're a sexist bigot" Ignore political correctness.

When They say "God is dead". Go to Church

Always do the opposite of what they say. Because, doing what they say leads ultimately to your own destruction

giggawatt
12-14-2015, 04:42 PM
We all just gonna ignore all the old timers posting and liking ITT? Hell, I haven't seen Shrike post in years!

Rainmaker
12-14-2015, 05:39 PM
We all just gonna ignore all the old timers posting and liking ITT? Hell, I haven't seen Shrike post in years!

What? You want us to be all happy cause they ignored us for a couple years and now that they've tired of running the gamut of other forums we're just supposed to take them back like nothing happened?

Rusty Jones
12-14-2015, 05:56 PM
Unfortunately, this kind of bitching is the predictable -backlash, to a Sinister, Far-Left, "progressive" reverse eugenics plan, to turn all Western Nations from Patriarchal societies into Matriarchal societies.

While, It's Natural to give in and start treating women like men (meaning like shit). Don't take the bait.

Men need to always remember, that whenever we give in to nature. that is the very definition of sin.

As Men we are called to be Heads of our families and our society not just act like stupid animals with no impulse control.

Therefore, A good rule of thumb is to always do the opposite of what Progressives say.

When They say "be a faggot pussy". Be a man.

When They say "don't have kids". Have as many as you can.

When They say "walk away and let the state take care of them". Support your Kids

When They say "cheat on your wife". Be true to your vows.

When They say "don't eat meat". Eat tons of Steak.

When They say "don't lift weights". Get strong as hell.

When They say "don't drive a car". Buy a Monster Truck.

When They say" don't own guns". Buy an arsenal.

When They say "You're a sexist bigot" Ignore political correctness.

When They say "God is dead". Go to Church

Always do the opposite of what they say. Because, doing what they say leads ultimately to your own destruction

Funny, progessives have always known that people like you were like that. That's why we've always begged Obama to tell people not to eat yellow snow.

Shrike
12-14-2015, 10:07 PM
It's been a long time since your avatar has been so relevant to a thread. You still haven't figured out a way to photoshop those heads out of the picture?
I'll do that after I see the other 674 petabytes of boobs on the internet. :)

Shrike
12-14-2015, 10:07 PM
We all just gonna ignore all the old timers posting and liking ITT? Hell, I haven't seen Shrike post in years!
I pop in every few months just to see if this place is still going. And I see it is...barely.

Bos Mutus
12-14-2015, 11:59 PM
I imagine that she'd be replaced immediately. How long are officer tours in the regular Air Force? They're 18 months for the Navy.

Generally 24 months....but out on convalescent leave, she doesn't come off the books, so I don't think she'd be replaced

giggawatt
12-15-2015, 07:39 AM
I pop in every few months just to see if this place is still going. And I see it is...barely.

That's why we need you guys back more.

Mjölnir
12-15-2015, 01:31 PM
I imagine that she'd be replaced immediately. How long are officer tours in the regular Air Force? They're 18 months for the Navy.

That changed a while ago (it was costing too much money to move people around so often):

Sea duty tours: 24 months minimum (up to 30 for first tours if they do not receive warfare qualification in 24 months)
Shore duty: Usually 36 months. CO's, XO's and some other billets are 24 months.