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Bos Mutus
11-25-2015, 04:25 PM
I think Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame.

If he did drugs, beat his wife/child, raped someone...he'd not only be in the HOF, but probably managing a team. He has more than served his time.

I get not allowing him to participate in games anymore...but his playing accomplishments are more than worthy...the HOF is incomplete without him.

Rusty Jones
11-25-2015, 04:31 PM
I think Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame.

If he did drugs, beat his wife/child, raped someone...he'd not only be in the HOF, but probably managing a team. He has more than served his time.

I get not allowing him to participate in games anymore...but his playing accomplishments are more than worthy...the HOF is incomplete without him.

It was a different time in 1989. Back then, children looked up to professional athletes and professional athletes were expected to conduct themselves accordingly. I'm a Philadelphia sports fan, I place a nice chunk of the blame on Allen Iverson for changing that.

sandsjames
11-25-2015, 04:33 PM
I think Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame.

If he did drugs, beat his wife/child, raped someone...he'd not only be in the HOF, but probably managing a team. He has more than served his time.

I get not allowing him to participate in games anymore...but his playing accomplishments are more than worthy...the HOF is incomplete without him.

There is no doubt he should be in. The HoF has some weird guidelines. I know baseball and football are different, but is there any doubt that Ray Lewis will make the HoF? No doubt at all...and he was involved in a murder.

The only thing that makes Rose a little different was that his had to do with, possibly, fixing games (I don't believe that to be the case but it could be a perception) with his betting. Either way, it doesn't matter. He's one of the best ever and should be in.

Hell, team owners, etc are allowed to compete in Draft Kings/other daily fantasy stuff without it being an issue. Seems like that would be far more concerning when it comes to certain decisions on the field and the "integrity of the game".

sandsjames
11-25-2015, 04:36 PM
It was a different time in 1989. Back then, children looked up to professional athletes and professional athletes were expected to conduct themselves accordingly. I'm a Philadelphia sports fan, I place a nice chunk of the blame on Allen Iverson for changing that.

I never realized, until recently, that Iverson had such a problem with alcohol. I'm sure people are aware but, being from the West Coast, I never really cared much about the happenings in the east. If Iverson would have played his cards right, he could have been what Stephen Curry is today. Philly could have competed for a title almost every year.

Bos Mutus
11-25-2015, 04:43 PM
Hell, team owners, etc are allowed to compete in Draft Kings/other daily fantasy stuff without it being an issue. Seems like that would be far more concerning when it comes to certain decisions on the field and the "integrity of the game".

I think players are in on that, too...but limited in how much they can bet.

There is a skeptic in me that says there is way too much money involved in any professional sport to believe it is entirely legitimate.

...but, I enjoy it anyway...just like we know the drama of a good movie is "fake"...it can still be fun to watch.

sandsjames
11-25-2015, 04:59 PM
I think players are in on that, too...but limited in how much they can bet.

There is a skeptic in me that says there is way too much money involved in any professional sport to believe it is entirely legitimate.

...but, I enjoy it anyway...just like we know the drama of a good movie is "fake"...it can still be fun to watch.

It just seems crazy to me. Imagine I'm a receiver for the Jaguars. I take another team's QB for the fantasy. It's the 4th quarter and we're getting killed. No chance of a comeback. It's pretty easy for me to drop a couple passes that will, ultimately, make no difference in the game but will give me a little advantage in the fantasy.

Does it happen? I don't know. But it seems just as likely as Pete Rose's betting having anything to do with performance of his players on the field.

sandsjames
11-25-2015, 05:02 PM
There is a skeptic in me that says there is way too much money involved in any professional sport to believe it is entirely legitimate.



I think it's pretty legitimate, for the most part. If anything, refs would be able to have more impact than anything. And as a fan, I always believe the ref is backing the other team...even though I know it's not true. But for players to have any part in it, I think there are just too many variables for that to really be possible.

Bos Mutus
11-25-2015, 05:14 PM
I never realized, until recently, that Iverson had such a problem with alcohol. I'm sure people are aware but, being from the West Coast, I never really cared much about the happenings in the east. If Iverson would have played his cards right, he could have been what Stephen Curry is today. Philly could have competed for a title almost every year.

Iverson wasn't nearly as good a shooter....but, man, he was fast!


It just seems crazy to me. Imagine I'm a receiver for the Jaguars. I take another team's QB for the fantasy. It's the 4th quarter and we're getting killed. No chance of a comeback. It's pretty easy for me to drop a couple passes that will, ultimately, make no difference in the game but will give me a little advantage in the fantasy.

Honestly, if they keep the amounts small, I don't think there is much to worry about there...the players stats and all that mean more to his livelihood regardless of the outcome of the game.


Does it happen? I don't know. But it seems just as likely as Pete Rose's betting having anything to do with performance of his players on the field.


I think it's pretty legitimate, for the most part. If anything, refs would be able to have more impact than anything. And as a fan, I always believe the ref is backing the other team...even though I know it's not true. But for players to have any part in it, I think there are just too many variables for that to really be possible.

There was that one NBA ref caught up in some corruption scheme, wasn't there? I don't remember the details...but, you're probably right, it probably comes more from the refs, league officials, stuff like that. I'm a big NASCAR fan and fans are always bitching about the seemingly random calls NASCAR makes on when to throw a caution, or divvying out penalties for different infractions depending on which team/driver did it....most of it is like any sport, you hate it when it goes against you and try to find fault...but, some, sure seem to favor certain popular teams

sandsjames
11-25-2015, 07:32 PM
There was that one NBA ref caught up in some corruption scheme, wasn't there? I don't remember the details...It was in the Lakers/Kings series in the Western conference finals a few years back.

efmbman
11-25-2015, 11:48 PM
The Pete Rose ruling goes back to the first Commissioner of Baseball - Keenesaw Mountain Landis after the "Black Sox" scandal. Google it for the full story...
In a nutshell, the Black Sox player were acquitted at trial, but Commissioner Landis ruled that "Regardless of the verdict of juries, no player who throws a ball game, no player who undertakes or promises to throw a ball game, no player who sits in confidence with a bunch of crooked ballplayers and gamblers, where the ways and means of throwing a game are discussed and does not promptly tell his club about it, will ever play professional baseball."
That set the precedent that was used with Pete Rose.
I feel Rose should be in the Hall of Fame - no doubt about it. Until Pro Baseball is willing to make an official ruling regarding the steroid era, they appear to be cherry picking what is harmful to the sport and what is not.

Mjölnir
11-26-2015, 02:17 PM
The Pete Rose ruling goes back to the first Commissioner of Baseball - Keenesaw Mountain Landis after the "Black Sox" scandal. Google it for the full story...
In a nutshell, the Black Sox player were acquitted at trial, but Commissioner Landis ruled that "Regardless of the verdict of juries, no player who throws a ball game, no player who undertakes or promises to throw a ball game, no player who sits in confidence with a bunch of crooked ballplayers and gamblers, where the ways and means of throwing a game are discussed and does not promptly tell his club about it, will ever play professional baseball."
That set the precedent that was used with Pete Rose.
I feel Rose should be in the Hall of Fame - no doubt about it. Until Pro Baseball is willing to make an official ruling regarding the steroid era, they appear to be cherry picking what is harmful to the sport and what is not.

As with the original post:

Beat your wife: Pro sports basically gives you a pass.

Beat your kid: Pro sports basically gives you a pass.

Murder someone: Pro sports basically gives you a pass.

Obstruct justice in a murder trial: Pro sports basically gives you a pass.

Get drunk, drive your car and kill someone: Pro sports basically gives you a pass.

Mess with the "integrity of the game": Stand the hell by.

It is a hypocrisy that will likely not change as long as the athletes are part of a multi-billion dollar machine.

Sports stars used to be heroes and conducted themselves knowing people looked up to them. Times have changed, for many there are new heroes.

sandsjames
11-26-2015, 02:52 PM
A
Sports stars used to be heroes and conducted themselves knowing people looked up to them. Times have changed, for many there are new heroes.I don't know how true this is. Babe Ruth was an alcoholic douche bag. It seems worse now because of 24 hour news cycles and social media. The spotlight is on it. Other than that, I have a hard time picturing athletes of any era being upstanding role models. Too much focus has been placed on their personal lives. I don't care about their personal lives. Can you hit a baseball 450 ft, strike out 15 batters a game, shoot 55%? I'm good with that. I'm sure that most of us have stuff we do in our everyday lives, after we leave work, that many in the public would find appalling.

Mjölnir
11-26-2015, 03:05 PM
I don't know how true this is. Babe Ruth was an alcoholic douche bag. It seems worse now because of 24 hour news cycles and social media. The spotlight is on it. Other than that, I have a hard time picturing athletes of any era being upstanding role models. Too much focus has been placed on their personal lives. I don't care about their personal lives. Can you hit a baseball 450 ft, strike out 15 batters a game, shoot 55%? I'm good with that. I'm sure that most of us have stuff we do in our everyday lives, after we leave work, that many in the public would find appalling.

Fair point. Babe Ruth had a lot of personal issues, the press didn't report them as much as they do today, there was not a photographer following him 24/7 as exists for many sports folks today. Many athlete's / public persona in the past had personal failings that if they were doing those things in 2015 would surly be widely circulated and would likely impact their consideration as 'heroes'.

JFK: multiple affairs, but the 'proper' press didn't discuss these.

Babe Ruth: Alcoholic

Mickey Mantle Alcoholic

Dwight Eisenhower: at least one public affair with a UK secretary during WWII

George Washington: Engaged to Martha, carried on romantic letter writing with another woman.

All did great things in their fields of endeavor, all had failings that if they did those things today, would likely be vilified in the press.

Big picture is that parents have a huge impact in who their kids idolize; parents should probably take a bit more time to teach their kids what a hero is, and what a good athlete is. On a case by case basis they may be the same, they may not.

Being a hero is a hell of a lot harder than hitting a baseball or putting a ball through a hoop.

Bos Mutus
11-26-2015, 03:23 PM
I don't know how true this is. Babe Ruth was an alcoholic douche bag. It seems worse now because of 24 hour news cycles and social media. The spotlight is on it. Other than that, I have a hard time picturing athletes of any era being upstanding role models. Too much focus has been placed on their personal lives. I don't care about their personal lives. Can you hit a baseball 450 ft, strike out 15 batters a game, shoot 55%? I'm good with that. I'm sure that most of us have stuff we do in our everyday lives, after we leave work, that many in the public would find appalling.


...and Babe Ruth's records should have an asterisk next to them, too....he played in a segregated all-white league....so, the talent he played against was much diluted...how many homers could he have hit facing Johnny Cueto every other night??

sandsjames
11-26-2015, 04:21 PM
...and Babe Ruth's records should have an asterisk next to them, too....he played in a segregated all-white league....so, the talent he played against was much diluted...how many homers could he have hit facing Johnny Cueto every other night??

Disagree completely. You can only play against the competition you are given. That's like saying that current QBs should have an asterisk next to their stats because prior QBs didn't have all of the protection on receivers and being hit that they do now. If the 1970s Steelers were to play against a team today, they'd get crushed. Should their Superbowl victories have an asterisk? Should we deduct 400 of Richard Petty's wins because the rules back then weren't as fair as they are now?

Bos Mutus
11-26-2015, 04:58 PM
Disagree completely. You can only play against the competition you are given. That's like saying that current QBs should have an asterisk next to their stats because prior QBs didn't have all of the protection on receivers and being hit that they do now. If the 1970s Steelers were to play against a team today, they'd get crushed. Should their Superbowl victories have an asterisk? Should we deduct 400 of Richard Petty's wins because the rules back then weren't as fair as they are now?

Richard Petty had 200 wins total.

...change of rules is different. Ruth did not play against all the best of his day....so, it would be more like comparing minor league stats to major league stats

sandsjames
11-26-2015, 05:14 PM
Richard Petty had 200 wins total.

...change of rules is different. Ruth did not play against all the best of his day....so, it would be more like comparing minor league stats to major league stats

I was exaggerating on the wins, but thanks for correcting me.

Should we asterisk all of Bobby Jones golfing wins? What about NBA records before the merger? Pete Maravich?

Babe Ruth, and others, played against the best he was able to play against. Would he be successful now? Maybe, but probably not. But Jack Nicolas wouldn't win all his major's if he played today, either.

Mjölnir
11-26-2015, 05:17 PM
Richard Petty had 200 wins total.

That is a lot of left turns.

Bos Mutus
11-26-2015, 06:52 PM
I was exaggerating on the wins, but thanks for correcting me.

Should we asterisk all of Bobby Jones golfing wins? What about NBA records before the merger? Pete Maravich?

Babe Ruth, and others, played against the best he was able to play against. Would he be successful now? Maybe, but probably not. But Jack Nicolas wouldn't win all his major's if he played today, either.

True......

sandsjames
11-26-2015, 07:06 PM
True......

Calvin Johnson just broke the record for TD catches on Thanksgiving, and has 7 years in a row with at least one. Since the majority of other receivers don't even get the opportunity to play on Thanksgiving, should that be an asterisk?

Listen, I get your point. I just think it's impossible to qualify the record based on the opposition.

Rainmaker
11-27-2015, 03:38 AM
...and Babe Ruth's records should have an asterisk next to them, too....he played in a segregated all-white league....so, the talent he played against was much diluted

I know it's all the rage with the Diversity Proselytizing crowd to say that. However, Ruth's numbers in his barnstorming career (Mostly played in Latin America) are pretty consistent with his MLB numbers.

In 800 exhibition games he hit over 300 Home Runs and yes the best black players of the day played in these leagues as well.

http://www.amazon.ca/Year-Babe-Ruth-Home-Runs/dp/0786719060

He also played 15 games head to head with Josh Gibson (The black Babe Ruth) and statistically out performed him.

Bos Mutus
12-10-2015, 08:13 PM
It's the offseason for Major League Baseball, but big news is coming soon. Commissioner Rob Manfred says he will decide by the end of the month whether to reinstate Pete Rose.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/12/10/459150237/mlb-commissioner-to-decide-whether-to-reinstate-pete-rose


Decision coming soon...

I think he will be reinstated...but, everyone is assuming that hte minute he gets reinstated, he'll be in the HOF.

I'm sort of thinking a lot of HOF voters will be against him being reinstated, so even if he is, they may vote against him and and might not get in the HOF...

sandsjames
12-14-2015, 09:21 PM
Decision coming soon...

I think he will be reinstated...but, everyone is assuming that hte minute he gets reinstated, he'll be in the HOF.

I'm sort of thinking a lot of HOF voters will be against him being reinstated, so even if he is, they may vote against him and and might not get in the HOF...

Well, here you go. Not gonna happen.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2015/12/14/pete-rose-mlb-banned-for-life/77299856/

Bos Mutus
12-15-2015, 03:55 PM
Well, here you go. Not gonna happen.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2015/12/14/pete-rose-mlb-banned-for-life/77299856/

I'm disappointed.

sandsjames
12-15-2015, 04:08 PM
I'm disappointed.

Yeah, me too. I'm sure it probably has more to do with Rose being a prick than anything else. He is one of the top 10 players of all time, IMO. What pisses me off is that the stuff that got him banned took place when he was a manager. Why he can't go into the hall as a player is beyond me.

Bos Mutus
12-15-2015, 04:41 PM
Yeah, me too. I'm sure it probably has more to do with Rose being a prick than anything else. He is one of the top 10 players of all time, IMO. What pisses me off is that the stuff that got him banned took place when he was a manager. Why he can't go into the hall as a player is beyond me.

I think he was still player/manager at that point, not sure...but, yeah.

So, the commish did say this is separate from the HOF...maybe the HOF just made their rules that if banned from baseball you're ineligible or something...so maybe it's the HOF that needs to change.

It seems crazy that he's served this long banishment while active NFL players are allowed to have fantasy teams on Draftkings

Bos Mutus
12-16-2015, 10:29 PM
Yeah, me too. I'm sure it probably has more to do with Rose being a prick than anything else. He is one of the top 10 players of all time, IMO. What pisses me off is that the stuff that got him banned took place when he was a manager. Why he can't go into the hall as a player is beyond me.

Looking like what did him in is that he stated he still bets on baseball to this day...

Seems like he could find something else to bet on, I dunno. This was probably his last best chance...might as well go about doing whatever he wants to now.

I hope FS1 keeps him around, though...

Eric.chan
06-12-2016, 02:45 AM
Agreed! Pete Rose deserves the HOF.