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Bos Mutus
10-19-2015, 10:59 PM
So, not really an "evolution" question or a religion question...

...but, it seems people like to say certain animals are really smart, or almost as smart as humans...chimps, dolphins, dogs, etc.

No doubt some of them can be smart "for an animal"....but why after 1000s of years of watching us has no other species done so much as invent a wheel, or manufacturing processes, or even written language for themselves? How far ahead in technology would man be by now if we had a more advanced species to watch all this time?

You would think by now there would've been some genius chimpanzees that could invent stuff (modeling ours at least) and make life better in the chimp world...

UncaRastus
10-19-2015, 11:05 PM
Opposed thumbs and aeroplanes would be my guess.

Rusty Jones
10-20-2015, 01:33 PM
Well... dolphins are highly intelligent, but the fact that they don't have anthropomorphic bodies renders their intelligence useless.

You really can't go by human standards when evaluating the intelligence of other animals, because we all have different primary senses. In humans, for example, our primary sense is sight. This is the same with all higher primates (i.e., apes and monkeys). We have the best vision of all mammals. Our eyes are positioned at the front of our heads for depth perception (because most primates live in the trees, and depth perception is necessary for safe movement between trees), and we have the best color perception. Also, we have a very horrible sense of smell. For other animals, it's the opposite. Like for dogs. They go by sense of smell. Mice and rats go by sense of touch.

So you can't use the same means to test the intelligence of different animals.

Humans can be the real dumb ones at times. For example, there used to be a cartoon that I watched as child in the late 1980's called Visionaries. It took place in a post-apocalyptic future, where all technology suddenly disappeared and humans had to rediscover magic, wizadry, sorcery, witchcraft, or whatever you want to call it.

It had me thinking about what would really happen to us if we were stripped of all technology... AND, it was made so that the people who did invent these things never existed. Would we be able to reinvent those things quickly and move on with our lives? I doubt it. We're just a bunch of dumb asses who know how to use the things that people way smarter than us invented.

Or, here's another example... why are we the only species that has to pay for food? There are children starving to death in third world countries and, in those same countries, large animals that eat 50 lbs of food per day are doing just fine? Some of those animals may be endangered species, but they're not dying of starvation.

I think we give ourselves too much credit.

Bos Mutus
10-20-2015, 02:25 PM
Well... dolphins are highly intelligent, but the fact that they don't have anthropomorphic bodies renders their intelligence useless.

You really can't go by human standards when evaluating the intelligence of other animals, because we all have different primary senses. In humans, for example, our primary sense is sight. This is the same with all higher primates (i.e., apes and monkeys). We have the best vision of all mammals. Our eyes are positioned at the front of our heads for depth perception (because most primates live in the trees, and depth perception is necessary for safe movement between trees), and we have the best color perception. Also, we have a very horrible sense of smell. For other animals, it's the opposite. Like for dogs. They go by sense of smell. Mice and rats go by sense of touch.

So you can't use the same means to test the intelligence of different animals.

I'm not buying it. Different senses, fine...okay, so we don't get the same test of intelligence...but of all the other species none have invented any real technology...I mean other than rudimentary nest-building and stuff....but, no real tools, no written language. I think if human brains were in dolphin bodies we'd have come up with some cool underwater air lounges by now.




Humans can be the real dumb ones at times. For example, there used to be a cartoon that I watched as child in the late 1980's called Visionaries. It took place in a post-apocalyptic future, where all technology suddenly disappeared and humans had to rediscover magic, wizadry, sorcery, witchcraft, or whatever you want to call it.

It had me thinking about what would really happen to us if we were stripped of all technology... AND, it was made so that the people who did invent these things never existed. Would we be able to reinvent those things quickly and move on with our lives? I doubt it. We're just a bunch of dumb asses who know how to use the things that people way smarter than us invented.

No...we would start re-inventing things. Okay, maybe Joe Blow on the street isn't going to invent a computer, but he's going to come up with some basic tools, build a shelter, build weapons for hunting, etc.


Or, here's another example... why are we the only species that has to pay for food? There are children starving to death in third world countries and, in those same countries, large animals that eat 50 lbs of food per day are doing just fine? Some of those animals may be endangered species, but they're not dying of starvation.

That's a good one...funny, I was just thinking about this the other day watching Nat Geo. Of course, they haven't even developed a basic barter system economy, either.


I think we give ourselves too much credit.

I don't think so...we are like a million times smarter than all the other animals. All of them combined have contributed basically zero...and they've had us to show them its possible. Yeah, they can smell better and have other "abilities" but none have invented any real technology. You'd think chimps in the wild would've at least figured out how to make a controlled campfire or something....made a lever...a wheel? I'm not saying they should have internet, but some basic manufactured technology maybe?

Why haven't raccoons invented something...those are crafty little F-ers with opposable thumbs?

Absinthe Anecdote
10-20-2015, 03:51 PM
So, not really an "evolution" question or a religion question...

...but, it seems people like to say certain animals are really smart, or almost as smart as humans...chimps, dolphins, dogs, etc.

No doubt some of them can be smart "for an animal"....but why after 1000s of years of watching us has no other species done so much as invent a wheel, or manufacturing processes, or even written language for themselves? How far ahead in technology would man be by now if we had a more advanced species to watch all this time?

You would think by now there would've been some genius chimpanzees that could invent stuff (modeling ours at least) and make life better in the chimp world...

They don't need technology because it is irrelevant to them.

What led to the big boom in human technology was agriculture. That led to humans living in larger groups and a surplus of people.

Once we started living in larger groups with significant portions of the population not being needed to gather food, that is what allowed humans to build technology.

Early tech was dedicated to defense or food production.

What other group of animals have found themselves in a similar scenario?

I think that ants and bees might posses way more intelligence than we give them credit for. They engage in intricate forms of agriculture and are able to pass on knowledge from one generation to the next.

Their pheromonal form of communication is so complex that we are only beginning to understand it.

However, these insects have never been in a position where they have needed true technology. Plus their body size and construction prevents them from mastering fire and building furnaces to forge steel.

A lot of conditions have to line up for a species to develop technology.

Like Rusty, I think we give ourselves too much credit.

We certainly give imaginary gods way too much credit, which is the dumbest aspect of humanity, by far.

Bos Mutus
10-20-2015, 04:04 PM
They don't need technology because it is irrelevant to them.

What led to the big boom in human technology was agriculture.

So....why haven't apes learned to farm?


That led to humans living in larger groups and a surplus of people.

Once we started living in larger groups with significant portions of the population not being needed to gather food, that is what allowed humans to build technology.

Early tech was dedicated to defense or food production.

What other group of animals have found themselves in a similar scenario?

I think most animals have a need to defend themselves...and then could benefit from either farming or better hunting tools.


I think that ants and bees might posses way more intelligence than we give them credit for. They engage in intricate forms of agriculture and are able to pass on knowledge from one generation to the next.

Their pheromonal form of communication is so complex that we are only beginning to understand it.

However, these insects have never been in a position where they have needed true technology. Plus their size body construction prevents them from mastering fire and building furnaces to forge steel.

A lot of conditions have to line up for a species to develop technology.

Like Rusty, I think we give ourselves too much credit.

We certainly give imaginary gods way too much credit, which is the dumbest aspect of humanity, by far.

There is that, too.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-20-2015, 04:33 PM
So....why haven't apes learned to farm?

I largely answered this in my post when I said that the conditions need to line up for a species to start farming and radically change their social dynamics to allow for the development of more complex forms of technology.




I think most animals have a need to defend themselves...and then could benefit from either farming or better hunting tools.



Again, more than a simple need must exist for a species to develop technology. Other conditions must also be present.

I'm sure you can come up with a list of an animal would need to harness and control fire. From there, you'll need a another list of what physical attributes they'd need to forge metals.




There is that, too.

Religion was part of human development and it aided us in earlier times, but it is something that needs to be discarded or at least diminished in its role in our social interactions.

I have hope because that is happening. The last major religion that is being disruptive to human development is Islam.

It needs to be marginalized like Chirstainity was for human progress to continue.

Rusty Jones
10-20-2015, 04:33 PM
Believe it or not, humans and apes don't have the same physical capabilities.

An adult male chimpanzee is about six times stronger than the average adult male human. That's how they're able to swing on tree branches with ease, despite having a body weight similar to human. Silverback gorillas believed to be able to lift 4,500 lbs. That's about the weight of a full dumpster.

Many people have speculated on why the strength disparity between humans and chimps exist - for example, that chimp muscles are more dense, or that they connect to the bones in places that allow for greater leverage than in humans... however, the explanation that they seem to go with the most is there being less gray matter in their spines. In other words, that strength comes at the expense of being able to adjust and control that strength, and perform tasks that require gentleness and precision. In other words, a chimpanzee cannot thread a needle or successfully swing a baseball bat and hit a ball.

These types of physical abilities are probably required in order for apes to develop technology.

Rainmaker
10-20-2015, 04:47 PM
So....why haven't apes learned to farm?






Because, not all primates were the same. The rhesus monkey's are the ones that were chosen to be taught to farm by the annunaki and later became the Summerians.

If you have RH positive blood type (85%+ of us), then you are descended from these guys.

http://www.livescience.com/1411-monkey-dna-points-common-human-ancestor.html

Bos Mutus
10-20-2015, 04:51 PM
Believe it or not, humans and apes don't have the same physical capabilities.

Yes, I'm aware of that.


An adult male chimpanzee is about six times stronger than the average adult male human. That's how they're able to swing on tree branches with ease, despite having a body weight similar to human. Silverback gorillas believed to be able to lift 4,500 lbs. That's about the weight of a full dumpster.

Many people have speculated on why the strength disparity between humans and chimps exist - for example, that chimp muscles are more dense, or that they connect to the bones in places that allow for greater leverage than in humans... however, the explanation that they seem to go with the most is there being less gray matter in their spines. In other words, that strength comes at the expense of being able to adjust and control that strength, and perform tasks that require gentleness and precision. In other words, a chimpanzee cannot thread a needle or successfully swing a baseball bat and hit a ball.

These types of physical abilities are probably required in order for apes to develop technology.

...but, they haven't developed even the simplest thing...build a fire to keep warm, make an arrowhead to hunt or fight enemies....thousands of years of seeing us do it and maybe even been slaughtered by us with weapons and not so much as an attempt from them to improve their odds.

Seems strange to me considering how long we've been doing it, that's all.

Rusty Jones
10-20-2015, 04:55 PM
Because, not all primates were the same. The rhesus monkey's are the ones that were chosen to be taught to farm by the annunaki and later became the Summerians.

If you have RH positive blood type (85%+ of us), then you are descended from these guys.

http://www.livescience.com/1411-monkey-dna-points-common-human-ancestor.html

Read the the article again. It didn't say ANY of this stuff.

Bos Mutus
10-20-2015, 04:57 PM
I largely answered this in my post when I said that the conditions need to line up for a species to start farming and radically change their social dynamics to allow for the development of more complex forms of technology.

Again, more than a simple need must exist for a species to develop technology. Other conditions must also be present.

I'm sure you can come up with a list of an animal would need to harness and control fire. From there, you'll need a another list of what physical attributes they'd need to forge metals.

So, in all of history, only humans have had these things line up, I guess? I think if human brains were in dolphin bodies...we'd still have built some shit


Religion was part of human development and it aided us in earlier times, but it is something that needs to be discarded or at least diminished in its role in our social interactions.

I have hope because that is happening. The last major religion that is being disruptive to human development is Islam.

It needs to be marginalized like Chirstainity was for human progress to continue.

I'm more of the mind that it isn't necessarily religion that causes these problems...religion is just a convenient tool for power-hungry, evil people. If religion were abolished then it would be something else...nationalism maybe, that one seems to work pretty well, too.

Rusty Jones
10-20-2015, 05:03 PM
Yes, I'm aware of that.



...but, they haven't developed even the simplest thing...build a fire to keep warm, make an arrowhead to hunt or fight enemies....thousands of years of seeing us do it and maybe even been slaughtered by us with weapons and not so much as an attempt from them to improve their odds.

Seems strange to me considering how long we've been doing it, that's all.

There was a video I watched on youtube a few years back. Someone put a realistic looking stuffed leopard near where a group of chimpanzees lived. At first, they were scared... but then they worked up the courage to check it out. A few of them grabbed a stick and tried to whack it. But you should have seen how pathetic it looked, as none of them were even able to land a clean hit. If a chimp isn't even capable of that type of accuracy and precision, how do you expect them to make arrowheads or fire?

Absinthe Anecdote
10-20-2015, 05:08 PM
Yes, I'm aware of that.



...but, they haven't developed even the simplest thing...build a fire to keep warm, make an arrowhead to hunt or fight enemies....thousands of years of seeing us do it and maybe even been slaughtered by us with weapons and not so much as an attempt from them to improve their odds.

Seems strange to me considering how long we've been doing it, that's all.

I would challenge your claim that higher primates have been watching humans for thousands of years.

I'd say that they have lived in isolation for most of modern human existence. Wild primates don't usually have much contact with humans.

Captive apes and chimps certainly have changed in their time with humans. There are captive chimps that drink wine and smoke cigarettes.

There are apes that can use sign language and paint pictures.

Heck, I've seen captive Indian elephants solving basic math problems and painting pictures in Thailand.

Are these just tricks or stunts? Probably, but there is a capability for innovation adaptation in other animals.

I don't think humans have a monopoly on innovation.

UncaRastus
10-20-2015, 05:12 PM
None of you have watched '2001: A Space Odyssey?

That movie explains everything, at the beginning.

Watch it. But read the book, first. The movie can be a bit mysterious, if one hasn't read the book. Or go to the following site, where the Prophet Kubrick explains the evolution of mankind, including a view into the future, which is directly related to the Book of Revelations, because Prophet Kubrick knows all:

http://www.kubrick2001.com/

I do have a smaller sized Black Obelisk, which I pay obeisance to. That is only natural.

I shall say no more.

Bos Mutus
10-20-2015, 05:15 PM
There was a video I watched on youtube a few years back. Someone put a realistic looking stuffed leopard near where a group of chimpanzees lived. At first, they were scared... but then they worked up the courage to check it out. A few of them grabbed a stick and tried to whack it. But you should have seen how pathetic it looked, as none of them were even able to land a clean hit. If a chimp isn't even capable of that type of accuracy and precision, how do you expect them to make arrowheads or fire?

Adapt and overcome. That's what tools are for...they help us accomplish tasks that we are biologically incapable of doing.


I would challenge your claim that higher primates have been watching humans for thousands of years.

I'd say that they have lived in isolation for most of modern human existence. Wild primates don't usually have much contact with humans.

Captive apes and chimps certainly have changed in their time with humans. There are captive chimps that drink wine and smoke cigarettes.

There are apes that can use sign language and paint pictures.

Heck, I've seen captive Indian elephants solving basic math problems and painting pictures in Thailand.

Are these just tricks or stunts? Probably, but there is a capability for innovation adaptation in other animals.

I don't think humans have a monopoly on innovation.

They've learned some tricks...that's about it.

Rainmaker
10-20-2015, 05:19 PM
Read the the article again. It didn't say ANY of this stuff.

Rusty, You can't believe everything you read on the internet.

That's what the "R" in RH stands for (Rhesus Monkey). It's a protein. If you're positive you have it (the protein). If negative you don't.

If the Mother is RH Negative and gets pregnant with someone who's RH positive, she has to have a shot or her body will attack the fetus. Same thing as when you try to mate a Donkey with a Horse.

The RH negative is the blood type of the original humans. O- (universal donor) is the first blood type on Earth. RH Neg, It's not a mutation, But, it's going extinct.

Blood type AB and RH positive appeared during the Neanderthal divergence period, When the Annunake first taught the Rhesus Monkeys how to grow Chick peas.

Rainmaker has studied this extensively. In-fact when I began training with Oracle at Gibtown , the first thing he did was give me a blood test to make sure I was RH Negative. He said Something about Most of the Royalty and Jesus (Isa), MLK and Lenny Kravits all being RH Negative.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-20-2015, 05:20 PM
There was a video I watched on youtube a few years back. Someone put a realistic looking stuffed leopard near where a group of chimpanzees lived. At first, they were scared... but then they worked up the courage to check it out. A few of them grabbed a stick and tried to whack it. But you should have seen how pathetic it looked, as none of them were even able to land a clean hit. If a chimp isn't even capable of that type of accuracy and precision, how do you expect them to make arrowheads or fire?

I saw some film footage of a chimp battle between two wild groups of chimps. They where throwing stones and tree limbs at each other.

It was as you say, wildly inaccurate.

They have the cognitive ability to recognize that hurling a projectile would be effective but not the manual dexterity to do it with any skill.

I think another thing that might be confusing many Creationists is that he thinks modern apes are analogous to the primates that humans evolved from.

They are not!

Humans evolved from an earlier line of hominids that are now extinct, that had different hands and feet.

Humans did not evolve from modern apes. The notion that humans evolved from modern apes is a misinformed view of evolution.

Rollyn01
10-20-2015, 05:33 PM
Why haven't other animals develop any technology? Necessity, or rather, the lack thereof. They have evolved to fit their environment. With a few exceptions, humans are the only species that alter their environment to fit them. While this has arrested the process of natural selection, it is also the reason that we have develop greater and greater technology. As our environment changes, we develop more technology to keep the process arrested. This only gives rise to more problems and alterations to the environment. As such, we develop more tech to combat it. The cycle feeds itself.

Since most animals do not alter their environment due to being fully subject to it, they will never develop anything that resembles even the simplest of human technology. This however does not preclude their ability to do so. There are many animals that do things that would be considered human-type activity. The leaf-cutter ants eat a fungus that grows deep in the ground need the roots of the tree that they live by. They cull the tree for its leaves to feed the fungus that they eat. There are ants that drink the excretions of aphids and treat them like we treat cattle. They actually "drive" the aphids up a tree so they can feed and "drive" them back underground to protect them from being poached by predators. Even after the aphids become butterflies, the ants will still welcome and protect them even though they are unable to use them for their excretions (most likely to ensure the propagation of the species). There are primates in the wild that actually take branches, strip them into a thin stick and actually fish for ants and grubs.

With that said, why would they need fire? They're already in an environment that allows them to live without the need of it and have adapted to it with the fur that they have. They say that necessity is the mother of invention. If you don't need it, it won't be invented. As for all the other inventions that are derived from previous inventions... monkey see, monkey do to get the same thing or have more.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-20-2015, 05:37 PM
So, in all of history, only humans have had these things line up, I guess? I think if human brains were in dolphin bodies...we'd still have built some shit

What now? Are you going to break out singing "Under the Sea" from the Litte Mermaid to prove your point?




I'm more of the mind that it isn't necessarily religion that causes these problems...religion is just a convenient tool for power-hungry, evil people. If religion were abolished then it would be something else...nationalism maybe, that one seems to work pretty well, too.

We can get rid of nationalism with globalization.

Of course we will need to round up all the Rainmakers and drop them into the ocean.

Bos Mutus
10-20-2015, 05:37 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foahTqz7On4

TJMAC77SP
10-20-2015, 05:39 PM
This has proven to be a very entertaining thread.

Bos Mutus
10-20-2015, 05:50 PM
Why haven't other animals develop any technology? Necessity, or rather, the lack thereof. They have evolved to fit their environment. With a few exceptions, humans are the only species that alter their environment to fit them. While this has arrested the process of natural selection, it is also the reason that we have develop greater and greater technology. As our environment changes, we develop more technology to keep the process arrested. This only gives rise to more problems and alterations to the environment. As such, we develop more tech to combat it. The cycle feeds itself.

Since most animals do not alter their environment due to being fully subject to it, they will never develop anything that resembles even the simplest of human technology. This however does not preclude their ability to do so. There are many animals that do things that would be considered human-type activity. The leaf-cutter ants eat a fungus that grows deep in the ground need the roots of the tree that they live by. They cull the tree for its leaves to feed the fungus that they eat. There are ants that drink the excretions of aphids and treat them like we treat cattle. They actually "drive" the aphids up a tree so they can feed and "drive" them back underground to protect them from being poached by predators. Even after the aphids become butterflies, the ants will still welcome and protect them even though they are unable to use them for their excretions (most likely to ensure the propagation of the species). There are primates in the wild that actually take branches, strip them into a thin stick and actually fish for ants and grubs.

With that said, why would they need fire? They're already in an environment that allows them to live without the need of it and have adapted to it with the fur that they have. They say that necessity is the mother of invention. If you don't need it, it won't be invented. As for all the other inventions that are derived from previous inventions... monkey see, monkey do to get the same thing or have more.

I think many animals face extinction or are endangered...they have a need for tech, the just do not have the ability or desire. There also seems to be very little curiosity...discovery for discovery's sake

That bit about the ants and aphids is interesting though...

UncaRastus
10-20-2015, 05:54 PM
Ant Monsters Take Over the Earth!

139

Bos Mutus
10-20-2015, 05:55 PM
What now? Are you going to break out singing "Under the Sea" from the Litte Mermaid to prove your point?

Not sure I have any grand point, really...more of a question. What point do you think I have that you are trying to disprove?

I thought it would be self-evident that no other animal develops anything resembling technology, really. So, just been pondering on that...and maybe the why of it. Is it just intelligence?

I must admit I expected different sort of responses to the question...not the "they can, they just choose not to cuz they don't need it" or "they don't have the dexterity" replies I've gotten.


We can get rid of nationalism with globalization.

There will be something else, human nature...do we have to go through the whole list so you can dismiss them one at a time?


Of course we will need to round up all the Rainmakers and drop them into the ocean.

Come, follow Absinthe and he will show us the way...

Rusty Jones
10-20-2015, 06:04 PM
I think if human brains were in dolphin bodies...we'd still have built some shit.

With what? A pair of fins? What, exactly, do you think you can build with a pair of fins?

Bos Mutus
10-20-2015, 06:07 PM
With what? A pair of fins? What, exactly, do you think you can build with a pair of fins?

I dunno...adapt and overcome...Hold stuff in your mouth...exactly why they need technology to make up for their lack of hands.

Rusty Jones
10-20-2015, 06:27 PM
I dunno...adapt and overcome...Hold stuff in your mouth...exactly why they need technology to make up for their lack of hands.

After saying this, are you really sure that a dolphin with a human brain could "build some shit?" As a human, do you think you could get by with only using your mouth to do things? Do you think you could make it through one day using your teeth to turn door knobs, load laundry into washer, change the oil in your car, or other things?

Here's one possible limitation: I don't know the required amount of force to knock someone's teeth out, but it can't be that much considering that people lose their teeth all the time in street fights or mishaps on the job, etc, etc. Whatever that amount of force is, an object of the same weight as that force would pull your teeth out if you tried to lift it with your mouth.

Bos Mutus
10-20-2015, 06:41 PM
After saying this, are you really sure that a dolphin with a human brain could "build some shit?"

Yes.


As a human, do you think you could get by with only using your mouth to do things? Do you think you could make it through one day using your teeth to turn door knobs, load laundry into washer, change the oil in your car, or other things?

As an individual dropped into a world built for people with hands, that would be difficult.

But, what I'm saying is...if the human species had no hands, we would've built technology that worked for our mouths.


Here's one possible limitation: I don't know the required amount of force to knock someone's teeth out, but it can't be that much considering that people lose their teeth all the time in street fights or mishaps on the job, etc, etc. Whatever that amount of force is, an object of the same weight as that force would pull your teeth out if you tried to lift it with your mouth.

OK. So? If that's what we had to work with that's what we would've worked with...but, we build a lot of things we're not capable of lifting.

Is your point really that the only thing holding dolphins back is their fins? If only they had hands they would've built underwater cities and high speed transport, and communication, etc? Or a wheel...or some kind of fish catching trap?

Absinthe Anecdote
10-20-2015, 06:45 PM
I dunno...adapt and overcome...Hold stuff in your mouth...exactly why they need technology to make up for their lack of hands.

What type of materials do you see them working with?

Any type of production process that involves heat is out. They might be able to come up with some type of fasteners, but I doubt it.

I'm not very impressed with this conversation.

Maybe I could get into it if I were having it with a hot tub full of Hooters waitresses, but this isn't working for me.

Bos Mutus
10-20-2015, 06:53 PM
What type of materials do you see them working with?

Any type of production process that involves heat is out. They might be able to come up with some type of fasteners, but I doubt it.

The details are not really important.

The question just is...humans have come so far...and not one animal species has really developed a single thing...over 1000s of years. My first inclination is to guess it's just a difference in intelligence...but that would seem like it would have to be a huge, almost incomprehensible difference...but people claim all these animals are pretty intelligent.

So, what else could there be...I don't buy the physical differences...I don't think that's enough.

Is there something else about humans other than just being intelligent animals with opposable thumbs that allows us to jump into a tin can and fly around the world, or to the moon; while thousands of other species have not so much as invented controllable fire or a wheel or hieroglyphics?


I'm not very impressed with this conversation.

Maybe I could get into it if I were having it with a hot tub full of Hooters waitresses, but this isn't working for me.

Rusty Jones
10-20-2015, 07:00 PM
Is your point really that the only thing holding dolphins back is their fins? If only they had hands they would've built underwater cities and high speed transport, and communication, etc? Or a wheel...or some kind of fish catching trap?

I doubt it. If you look at the animals that actually "build" things, they've all got hands. Beavers have hands, and they use them to build dams. Squirrels, chipmunks, moles, and woodchucks also build burrows... using their hands. If these animals had paws or hooves, they wouldn't be able to do it. But they can, because they have hands.

If dolphins are more intelligent than these animals - and it's generally accepted that they are - then why haven't dolphins built similar things? The only possible answer is... they can't.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-20-2015, 07:13 PM
The details are not really important.

The question just is...humans have come so far...and not one animal species has really developed a single thing...over 1000s of years. My first inclination is to guess it's just a difference in intelligence...but that would seem like it would have to be a huge, almost incomprehensible difference...but people claim all these animals are pretty intelligent.

So, what else could there be...I don't buy the physical differences...I don't think that's enough.

Is there something else about humans other than just being intelligent animals with opposable thumbs that allows us to jump into a tin can and fly around the world, or to the moon; while thousands of other species have not so much as invented controllable fire or a wheel or hieroglyphics?

Okay, let's try to make a list.

Intelligence: It is certainly a factor, but not the only factor.

Social Animals: I think it is a requirement that the animal lives in groups. Otherwise whatever technology one animal comes up with would be lost in a generation. It also wouldn't be improved upon.

Food Source: in the beginning stages of technological development a limited and unstable food source probably encourages technology. However, at some point the food problem must be solved and an abundance of food must be created.

Physical attributes: Must have the ability to work with a wide range of materials and not have any severe disadvantages such as living under water.

There, I got you started, now you add to that list.

Rainmaker
10-20-2015, 07:20 PM
None of you have watched '2001: A Space Odyssey?

That movie explains everything, at the beginning.

Watch it. But read the book, first. The movie can be a bit mysterious, if one hasn't read the book. Or go to the following site, where the Prophet Kubrick explains the evolution of mankind, including a view into the future, which is directly related to the Book of Revelations, because Prophet Kubrick knows all:

http://www.kubrick2001.com/

I do have a smaller sized Black Obelisk, which I pay obeisance to. That is only natural.

I shall say no more.



Yes Uncle, and some of us also noticed that Kubrick's Black Obelisk Looks a lot like the NYC Millenium Hilton Hotel (directly east of National 9/11 Memorial overlooking Ground zero).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Millenium_Hilton_by_David_Shankbone.jpg

Of course any resemblance between the two, must only be purely coincidental.... and it's the patriotic duty of every red blooded Citizen of Oceania to have a miniature black monolith that we worship in our living rooms.

Bos Mutus
10-20-2015, 07:24 PM
Okay, let's try to make a list.

Intelligence: It is certainly a factor, but not the only factor.

Social Animals: I think it is a requirement that the animal lives in groups. Otherwise whatever technology one animal comes up with would be lost in a generation. It also wouldn't be improved upon.

Food Source: in the beginning stages of technological development a limited and unstable food source probably encourages technology. However, at some point the food problem must be solved and an abundance of food must be created.

Physical attributes: Must have the ability to work with a wide range of materials and not have any severe disadvantages such as living under water.

There, I got you started, now you add to that list.

I think there are animals that meet all of the above that still haven't invented anything....by 'build stuff' again, I'm not talking about nests and stuff that are more instinct than tech...and what animals have learned to improve on anything? I'm sure there are some cases of animals exhibiting learned behavior, I suppose...but nowhere near in the neighborhood of what we're talking about.

Curiosity? But other animals are curious.

Innovative spirit? Not sure what it is.

Not sure what it is...something beyond intelligence perhaps, that's what I'm getting at...something that humans and only humans have.

Rusty Jones
10-20-2015, 07:36 PM
I think there are animals that meet all of the above that still haven't invented anything....by 'build stuff' again, I'm not talking about nests and stuff that are more instinct than tech...and what animals have learned to improve on anything? I'm sure there are some cases of animals exhibiting learned behavior, I suppose...but nowhere near in the neighborhood of what we're talking about.

Curiosity? But other animals are curious.

Innovative spirit? Not sure what it is.

Not sure what it is...something beyond intelligence perhaps, that's what I'm getting at...something that humans and only humans have.

The problem is that you keep saying "we," as if all humans can take credit for developing the technology that we all use. We can't. Just like the scenario I pointed out, if the human race was stripped of all of its technology and the inventors were made to have never existed, we'd all be cavemen for a few generations. Hell, I don't know how to find the ingredients in nature to bake bread, let alone make an electronic device.

Rainmaker
10-20-2015, 07:42 PM
I think there are animals that meet all of the above that still haven't invented anything....

.

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

Bos Mutus
10-20-2015, 07:49 PM
The problem is that you keep saying "we," as if all humans can take credit for developing the technology that we all use. We can't. Just like the scenario I pointed out, if the human race was stripped of all of its technology and the inventors were made to have never existed, we'd all be cavemen for a few generations. Hell, I don't know how to find the ingredients in nature to bake bread, let alone make an electronic device.

No, but you could build a wheel...a lever...a wheelbarrow...a hammer...fire...animal traps. "We", collectively might have to somewhat start over, but we'd move through tech a lot faster knowing that certain things can be done and have an idea how to do it if not the exact know-how individually. You do know enough to get through some basics pretty fast, maybe not this weekend, but you could figure out how to make bread before too long knowing it can be done and what it is.

You might not be able to build a house right now, but you know more of the concepts than you think and could do something of a starter.

I couldn't go build an airplane right now, but I kind of know how they work; which would give "us" a huge head-start compared to having to invent them the first time.

Most of us know certain properties of things and what might work, what won't work, etc...at least to get us there faster.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-20-2015, 08:21 PM
I think there are animals that meet all of the above that still haven't invented anything....by 'build stuff' again, I'm not talking about nests and stuff that are more instinct than tech...and what animals have learned to improve on anything? I'm sure there are some cases of animals exhibiting learned behavior, I suppose...but nowhere near in the neighborhood of what we're talking about.

Curiosity? But other animals are curious.

Innovative spirit? Not sure what it is.

Not sure what it is...something beyond intelligence perhaps, that's what I'm getting at...something that humans and only humans have.

Do you want an answer to your question, or not?

Let's build that list of attributes. If you think that you can name an animal that has all the attributes I listed, then name that animal.

Don't tell me you think you can.

If you are able to come up with an animal, then we need to refine that list.

PS

I suspect that we need to agree upon a definition of technology too.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-20-2015, 08:29 PM
Read this: http://www.npr.org/2011/12/23/143833929/myth-busting-the-truth-about-animals-and-tools

It talks about Dolphins using tools, but not fashioning tools.

Some great videos are on that link.

Also this:



Just 10 or 15 years ago, scientists were still debating whether orangutans in the wild also made tools, Shumaker says. Now it's clear they do, and there are several examples in Animal Tool Behavior. The book also offers scientific documentation of other species making tools in the wild. New Caledonian crows make hooks out of twigs to catch prey. Wild chimpanzees make wooden spears for hunting.

Perhaps the most surprising and controversial findings in the new book involve what scientists refer to as symbolic tool use. "These are examples where we see tools being used to represent something else or to provide a change in psychological state," Shumaker says

Symbolic tool use is something people do every time they pay for an item with paper bills or coins. And some monkeys and apes in captivity have learned to use tokens that they trade for various foods.

But Shumaker is more intrigued by the sort of symbolic tools that can affect emotions. There are lots of examples of this in people. Children often have a special stuffed animal or blanket that is much more than a toy. The object represents comfort or security to them, and they use it to feel better.

It's one more behavior that scientists once considered uniquely human. But Shumaker says there is more and more evidence that some animals use symbolic tools in much the same way.

"We would see great apes in times of great stress or sadness, like a female who had an infant that died," Shumaker says. "That female would create something that researchers called a doll and then [she] treated it exactly as she had treated her infant that had recently died."

Shumaker says scientists are still debating the significance of examples like this. But he says the fact that such a debate is even taking place shows how much things have changed since the 1960s, when scientists first realized that humans weren't the only ones using tools.

Rainmaker
10-20-2015, 08:36 PM
Here's one possible limitation: I don't know the required amount of force to knock someone's teeth out..

Look up Hyperdontia Rusty

Rainmaker had 8 wisdom teeth, Which coupled with My AB Negative blood type and keen psychic abilities, led me to the Oracle at Gibtown for initiation into the order.

As one of the few remaining direct descendants of the Annunaki (with no monkey blood) I'd like to offer my services up (free of charge) to help ANY Veteran that may be reading this tap into the synchronicity and unlock the key to accessing their full human potential.

Whatever the human mind can conceive and believe, it can achieve. You see people there's no such thing as "junk" DNA.

(When the student is ready the teacher shall appear).

Bos Mutus
10-20-2015, 08:45 PM
Do you want an answer to your question, or not?

Let's build that list of attributes. If you think that you can name an animal that has all the attributes I listed, then name that animal.

Don't tell me you think you can.

If you are able to come up with an animal, then we need to refine that list.

Well, we already know that no animal is exactly like humans...no two different species are exactly alike or they wouldn't be two different species..so to you wanna make this list and keep adding things that humans have until we eliminate everything except humans...then you'll say that last attribute, or the combination of everything we have listed is the key to technology?


PS

I suspect that we need to agree upon a definition of technology too.

Yeah, that would probably be helpful...but, in general, I would think we're talking about some kind of learning process that is improved upon over time...like mentioned above, not just using things as tools, but fashioning tools for a purpose and improving the design over time...that kind of stuff. Something beyond "oh, look how clever that little guy is to take something he found or was given to him and use it in a way."

I'm sure I don't have a complete definition that will survive of the scrutiny that is forthcoming, but I hope you know what I mean...

Rainmaker
10-20-2015, 08:56 PM
Folks.....We stand in the Presence of Brilliance! Your analytical skills never cease to amaze me......I think you're on to something huuuuge Bos!

Now, It's probably never been thought of by anybody before. But, this thread will change everything!!!

But, before we go public with your "Theory of Evolution" ("TM") We must first find the "Missing Link ("TM") that bridges the evolutionary split between the higher primates (chimps and humans) .....

Either that or believe in God and accept that man was created through genetic engineering of the Rhesus monkey.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-20-2015, 08:57 PM
Well, we already know that no animal is exactly like humans...no two different species are exactly alike or they wouldn't be two different species..so to you wanna make this list and keep adding things that humans have until we eliminate everything except humans...then you'll say that last attribute, or the combination of everything we have listed is the key to technology?



Yeah, that would probably be helpful...but, in general, I would think we're talking about some kind of learning process that is improved upon over time...like mentioned above, not just using things as tools, but fashioning tools for a purpose and improving the design over time...that kind of stuff. Something beyond "oh, look how clever that little guy is to take something he found or was given to him and use it in a way."

I'm sure I don't have a complete definition that will survive of the scrutiny that is forthcoming, but I hope you know what I mean...

Well, at least a list of attributes that is relevant to developing and using technologies.

We have to come up with an agreed upon definition of technology to do this.

There where other species of primates in the past that used stone tools.

I suggest that we use something beyond Stone Age technology for our definition.

Rollyn01
10-20-2015, 09:29 PM
Let's also not forget that much of human knowledge, and thus the inventions and technology, itself comes from the observations of nature. Flight of birds gave rise to airplanes and lightning striking a tree branch gave rise to fire. I think that what humans possess is the ability to conceptualize what is observed in nature. Our imagination may be the key that has granted us the ability to create and develop the technology that we ultimately derived from nature. So the actually question should be: are there any other species that can conceptualize and imagine new knowledge from what they observe from their surrounding environment?

Bos Mutus
10-20-2015, 09:43 PM
Well, at least a list of attributes that is relevant to developing and using technologies.

We have to come up with an agreed upon definition of technology to do this.

There where other species of primates in the past that used stone tools.

I suggest that we use something beyond Stone Age technology for our definition.

Okay...we can try. I have a feeling we'll get caught up in details...



Okay, let's try to make a list.

Intelligence: It is certainly a factor, but not the only factor.

Intelligence is certainly a factor...maybe THE factor, but I'm guessing there is something else beyond strictly intelligence...not sure what."[/quote]


Social Animals: I think it is a requirement that the animal lives in groups. Otherwise whatever technology one animal comes up with would be lost in a generation. It also wouldn't be improved upon.

This is an interesting one...and I'll accept it. Some sort of interaction or communication would be necessary, I think.


Food Source: in the beginning stages of technological development a limited and unstable food source probably encourages technology. However, at some point the food problem must be solved and an abundance of food must be created.

I would agree that scarcity encourages technology....not sure I'd agree that it is entirely necessary.


Physical attributes: Must have the ability to work with a wide range of materials and not have any severe disadvantages such as living under water.

Advantages and disadvantages to different attributes for sure...I don't accept that ones we have are entirely necessary and the only ones that can accommodate technology. I rather think that the tech we've developed has been developed for the attributes we have....if we'd had fins and dolphins had hands, we'd be saying "how can you expect them to do this and that with those hand things they have?"


There, I got you started, now you add to that list.

I'm stuck in the cognitive area...or something in the drive, curiosity, innovative spirit, but don't know where it comes from or what to call it...just think that we have it and no other animals do.

Bos Mutus
10-20-2015, 09:45 PM
Let's also not forget that much of human knowledge, and thus the inventions and technology, itself comes from the observations of nature. Flight of birds gave rise to airplanes and lightning striking a tree branch gave rise to fire. I think that what humans possess is the ability to conceptualize what is observed in nature. Our imagination may be the key that has granted us the ability to crate and develop the technology that we ultimately derived from nature. So the actually question should be: are there any other species that can conceptualize and imagine new knowledge from what they observe from their surrounding environment?

Yes...good point. I think you're in the same direction as me. Is the ability to imagine and conceptualize a function of just higher intelligence?

Absinthe Anecdote
10-20-2015, 10:00 PM
Yes...good point. I think you're in the same direction as me. Is the ability to imagine and conceptualize a function of just higher intelligence?

We can speculate, but we'd never know for certain.

Let's say that I was magically able to put you in a dolphin's body. You have the exact same abilities for thought and imagination as you do now.

But, you don't have English or any other human language.

Do you think that you would be able to communicate with humans in a meaningful way if you were captured and put in Seaworld?

How would you go about letting you captors know that you were highly intelligent?

Would you be able to tap out prime numbers with your tail?

I doubt you would ever be able to demonstrate the degree of your understanding and intelligence.

Bos Mutus
10-20-2015, 10:05 PM
We can speculate, but we'd never know for certain.

Yes. It's just a mental exercise.


Let's say that I was magically able to put you in a dolphin's body. You have the exact same abilities for thought and imagination as you do now.

But, you don't have English or any other human language.

Do you think that you would be able to communicate with humans in a meaningful way if you were captured and put in Seaworld?

How would you go about letting you captors know that you were highly intelligent?

Would you be able to tap out prime numbers with your tail?

I doubt you would ever be able to demonstrate the degree of your understanding and intelligence.

I can write with my mouth, maybe? Do some tasks to communicate much in the way we train animals now. I think we could figure a way to get the idea out.

Might be a good movie... For some reason it reminds me of a movie where the guy was alive in his head but couldn't move, speak or anything...they thought he was dead...so they whole movie takes place inside his narrated point of view as he's going through preparation for and finally getting an autopsy...which at the end he finally dies from the autopsy and the movie just goes black...throughout the movie he keeps trying to communicate that he's still alive, but can't.

UncaRastus
10-20-2015, 10:12 PM
House cats. They don't need to do anything except eat, sleep, defecate, and urinate. That is because cat owners do everything for them.

House cats are possibly capable of doing much more, but why should they do that? They have human slaves.

Dolphins. How do we know that they don't have advanced cities underwater? I think that they may have absconded diving bells with tools on the outside, controllable by the dolphins that are inside. They built their cities, complete with dolphin houses and beds and stuff. They even educate their young. I know that a group of dolphins is now called a pod, but they used to belong to schools.

I also believe that dolphins might take the downed fliers out of the aeroplanes that have crashed into the sea, and the sailors out of lost boats and ships, and use them for entertainment, in airquariums. All of these people are harvested from the Bermuda Triangle.

Vast expanses of the oceans have never been explored.

Cats from ships, boats, or aeroplanes could also be put into smaller airquariums, because they would be viewed as natural predators from the world above, since they like to eat fish. Dolphins love to watch cats.

The underwater wonderland would also be called Oceania, but don't tell anyone that, Rainmaker. That will be our secret. Come on, pinky swear to keeping that a secret.

;)

Absinthe Anecdote
10-20-2015, 10:15 PM
Yes. It's just a mental exercise.



I can write with my mouth, maybe? Do some tasks to communicate much in the way we train animals now. I think we could figure a way to get the idea out.

Might be a good movie... For some reason it reminds me of a movie where the guy was alive in his head but couldn't move, speak or anything...they thought he was dead...so they whole movie takes place inside his narrated point of view as he's going through preparation for and finally getting an autopsy...which at the end he finally dies from the autopsy and the movie just goes black...but he keeps trying to communicate that he's still alive, but can't.

I think I saw that movie.

The dolphin scenario would be insanely frustrating. Especially if you were dealing with people who thought everything you did was a cute dolphin trick.

Supposing you could get them to give you a magic marker or a crayon, what the hell would you write?

Remember, I took away your English.

You can't write numerals, but you still have the concept of numbers.

I suppose you could draw pictograms, but let's assume they are very crude.

Personally, I don't think you could convince them to take you any more seriously than Flipper, the TV Dolphin of the 1960s.

Your ass would be stuck in a tank doing backflips for sardines until you died.

Bos Mutus
10-20-2015, 10:20 PM
I think I saw that movie.

The dolphin scenario would be insanely frustrating. Especially if you were dealing with people who thought everything you did was a cute dolphin trick.

Supposing you could get them to give you a magic marker or a crayon, what the hell would you write?

Remember, I took away your English.

Okay...I was think just the ability to speak.


You can't write numerals, but you still have the concept of numbers.

I suppose you could draw pictograms, but let's assume they are very crude.

Personally, I don't think you could convince them to take you any more seriously than Flipper, the TV Dolphin of the 1960s.

Your ass would be stuck in a tank doing backflips for sardines until you died.

I don't think so...I think where there is a will there is a way, and we could find a way...we could do some complicated tricks that are just too much for a normal dolphin. We could gather things from around the pool and display creativity and higher intellect.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-20-2015, 10:20 PM
House cats. They don't need to do anything except eat, sleep, defecate, and urinate. That is because cat owners do everything for them.

House cats are possibly capable of doing much more, but why should they do that? They have human slaves.

Dolphins. How do we know that they don't have advanced cities underwater? I think that they may have absconded diving bells with tools on the outside, controllable by the dolphins that are inside. They built their cities, complete with dolphin houses and beds and stuff. They even educate their young. I know that a group of dolphins is now called a pod, but they used to belong to schools.

I also believe that dolphins might take the downed fliers out of the aeroplanes that have crashed into the sea, and the sailors out of lost boats and ships, and use them for entertainment, in airquariums. All of these people are harvested from the Bermuda Triangle.

Vast expanses of the oceans have never been explored.

Cats from ships, boats, or aeroplanes could also be put into smaller airquariums, because they would be viewed as natural predators from the world above, since they like to eat fish. Dolphins love to watch cats.

The underwater wonderland would also be called Oceania, but don't tell anyone that, Rainmaker. That will be our secret. Come on, pinky swear to keeping that a secret.

;)


http://youtu.be/k4n-4UGqFe8

Absinthe Anecdote
10-20-2015, 10:30 PM
Okay...I was think just the ability to speak.



I don't think so...I think where there is a will there is a way, and we could find a way...we could do some complicated tricks that are just too much for a normal dolphin. We could gather things from around the pool and display creativity and higher intellect.

I'm not so sure.

Scientists have only recently begun to suspect that Dolphins have mental abilities that rival humans, but haven't been able to determine how much, or communicate in a meaningful way.

watch this clip.


http://youtu.be/boAtVixY9nA

Bos Mutus
10-20-2015, 10:43 PM
I'm not so sure.

Scientists have only recently begun to suspect that Dolphins have mental abilities that rival humans, but haven't been able to determine how much, or communicate in a meaningful way.

Where are the dolphin scientists trying to meet us halfway is what I'm wondering...


watch this clip.


http://youtu.be/boAtVixY9nA


OK...but still no underwater dolphin cities, machinery, or speedboats.

Rollyn01
10-20-2015, 10:55 PM
We can speculate, but we'd never know for certain.

Let's say that I was magically able to put you in a dolphin's body. You have the exact same abilities for thought and imagination as you do now.

But, you don't have English or any other human language.

Do you think that you would be able to communicate with humans in a meaningful way if you were captured and put in Seaworld?

How would you go about letting you captors know that you were highly intelligent?

Would you be able to tap out prime numbers with your tail?

I doubt you would ever be able to demonstrate the degree of your understanding and intelligence.

Umm... the concepts of mathematics are universal. So long as you can count, you can use that as a way to communicate to others that you can understand math being that the basis of math is counting. If you can make a sound, you just make a rhythm that would attract someone's attention. Once you believe you have their attention, you change the rhythm into an sequence of larger and larger numbers. After going up to a certain number, say 20, start a new sequence with the prime numbers then change to counting down to ever decreasing numbers from 20. If that doesn't signal intelligence, then your intended audience are the ones that lack it.

Bos Mutus
10-20-2015, 11:01 PM
House cats. They don't need to do anything except eat, sleep, defecate, and urinate. That is because cat owners do everything for them.

House cats are possibly capable of doing much more, but why should they do that? They have human slaves.

Dolphins. How do we know that they don't have advanced cities underwater? I think that they may have absconded diving bells with tools on the outside, controllable by the dolphins that are inside. They built their cities, complete with dolphin houses and beds and stuff. They even educate their young. I know that a group of dolphins is now called a pod, but they used to belong to schools.

I also believe that dolphins might take the downed fliers out of the aeroplanes that have crashed into the sea, and the sailors out of lost boats and ships, and use them for entertainment, in airquariums. All of these people are harvested from the Bermuda Triangle.

Vast expanses of the oceans have never been explored.

Cats from ships, boats, or aeroplanes could also be put into smaller airquariums, because they would be viewed as natural predators from the world above, since they like to eat fish. Dolphins love to watch cats.

The underwater wonderland would also be called Oceania, but don't tell anyone that, Rainmaker. That will be our secret. Come on, pinky swear to keeping that a secret.

;)

LMAO...you're a nut!

UncaRastus
10-20-2015, 11:11 PM
Someone has to try to keep the MTF light and fluffy!

Oh, man. I just thought of an omelette! Light and fluffy! I have to go cook, now.

UncaRastus
10-20-2015, 11:13 PM
I would maybe do My Sharona. That could work, yes?

Absinthe Anecdote
10-21-2015, 12:00 AM
Umm... the concepts of mathematics are universal. So long as you can count, you can use that as a way to communicate to others that you can understand math being that the basis of math is counting. If you can make a sound, you just make a rhythm that would attract someone's attention. Once you believe you have their attention, you change the rhythm into an sequence of larger and larger numbers. After going up to a certain number, say 20, start a new sequence with the prime numbers then change to counting down to ever decreasing numbers from 20. If that doesn't signal intelligence, then your intended audience are the ones that lack it.

I am envisioning that it would be some ditsy dolphin trainer who would exclaim, "He is singing a dolphin song!"

Then they'd toss you a day old mackerel and Instagram a photo of your disappointed dolphin ass before going to Starbucks.

I doubt they'd pick up on your frustration because Dolphins look like they are always smiling.

And you'd have to be very careful about displaying frustration because then they'd label you a problem dolphin.

Your only hope would be to get a scientist who was looking for intelligence in dolphins. Even then, it would probably be one like the lady in that video.

She'd put a mirror in the pool with you and do a bunch of stupid Fischer Price baby talk with you.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-21-2015, 12:10 AM
Where are the dolphin scientists trying to meet us halfway is what I'm wondering...




OK...but still no underwater dolphin cities, machinery, or speedboats.

Huh?

I'm not even sure you and I are understanding each other.

My contention is that dolphins could be the equivalent of human geniuses and scientists might never be able to prove it, or even notice it.

I also contend that intelligence alone doesn't mean that an animal can build machines. I thought we established that?

Or are you just joking about Flipperville?

Rollyn01
10-21-2015, 12:13 AM
I am envisioning that it would be some ditsy dolphin trainer who would exclaim, "He is singing a dolphin song!"

Then they'd toss you a day old mackerel and Instagram a photo of your disappointed dolphin ass before going to Starbucks.

I doubt they pick up on your frustration because Dolphins look like they are always smiling.

And you'd have to be very careful about displaying frustration because then they'd label you a problem dolphin.

Your only hope would be to get a scientist who was looking for intelligence in dolphins. Even then, it would probably be one like the lady in that video.

She'd put a mirror in the pool with you and do a bunch of stupid Fischer Price baby talk with you.

Sadly, I envision the same thing. As smart as we think we are, we do some really stupid things towards other sapient creatures. It's even worst when we think that the other sapient creatures are thought to be "one step below" us. We have a hell of a history of demonstrating this on other human beings and we still haven't learn from that as we are doing the same thing to these poor creatures.

Bos Mutus
10-21-2015, 12:20 AM
Huh?

I'm not even sure you and I are understanding each other.

My contention is that dolphins could be the equivalent of human geniuses and scientists might never be able to prove it, or even notice it.

I also contend that intelligence alone doesn't mean that an animal can build machines. I thought we established that?

Or are you just joking about Flipperville?

Well, I would guess yes, we agree then that "intelligence alone" is not enough...but I don't think physical attributes are the rest of it...I still think it is cognitive...like Rolly said...the ability to imagine, conceptualize...

I'm not sure if that is considered "intelligence" in this context...but I think it is something in that area that dolphins do NOT have that we do that allows us to make technology...and not the fact that they don't have hands....I don't think any of the physical attributes are the key...they certainly make certain tasks easier, but they are not the linchpin.

Like I said...put us into a dolphin body and I believe we'd invent, build, do most of these things...with more difficulty maybe, or we'd invent different kinds of things...but we're not as "dumb" as dolphins in the create, conceptualize, etc. area. So much so that we've gone to the moon and they haven't done anything really.

TJMAC77SP
10-21-2015, 12:29 AM
Not sure I have any grand point, really...more of a question. What point do you think I have that you are trying to disprove?

I thought it would be self-evident that no other animal develops anything resembling technology, really. So, just been pondering on that...and maybe the why of it. Is it just intelligence?

I must admit I expected different sort of responses to the question...not the "they can, they just choose not to cuz they don't need it" or "they don't have the dexterity" replies I've gotten.


.

One reason this thread has been entertaining.......and continues to be.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-21-2015, 12:30 AM
Well, I would guess yes, we agree then that "intelligence alone" is not enough...but I don't think physical attributes are the rest of it...I still think it is congnitive...like Rolly said...the ability to imagine, conceptualize....I'm not sure if that is considered "intelligence" in this context...but I think it is something in that area that dolphins do NOT have that we do that allows us to make technology...and not the fact that they don't have hands....I don't think any of the physical attributes are the key...they certainly make certain tasks easier, but they are not the linchpin.

Like I said...put us into a dolphin body and I believe we'd invent, build, do most of these things...with more difficulty maybe, or we'd invent different kinds of things...but we're not as "dumb" as dolphins in the create, conceptuatlize, etc. area. So much so that we've gone to the moon and they haven't done anything really.

Please tell me you are joking!

How would a dolphin engineer overcome the challenges of living underwater with no hands?

They couldn't conquer fire, metallurgy, electricity, chemistry, or even master carpentry.

What materials are they going to use to build their first machine?

They aren't going to bother with building dwellings because they don't need them.

They might benefit from some tools, but not much. All that shit isn't relevant to them because of where they live.

Bos Mutus
10-21-2015, 12:34 AM
Please tell me you are joking!

How would a dolphin engineer overcome the challenges of living underwater with no hands?

They couldn't conquer fire, metallurgy, electricity, chemistry, or even master carpentry.

What materials are they going to use to build their first machine?

They aren't going to bother with building dwellings because they don't need them.

They might benefit from some tools, but not much. All that shit isn't relevant to them because of where they live.

I'm not joking.

Keep in mind...dolphins are just one example. Is your hypothesis that dolphins just happend to be the one animal that is capable of tech, but has not need or physical ability to do so?

There are other animals that live above ground, too...many are somewhat intelligent...still nothing...not a single thing...in 1000s of species over 1000s of years.

You don't find that the slight bit curious?

Absinthe Anecdote
10-21-2015, 12:54 AM
I'm not joking.

Keep in mind...dolphins are just one example. Is your hypothesis that dolphins just happend to be the one animal that is capable of tech, but has not need or physical ability to do so?

No, I just used the dolphin example to illustrate a thought experiment about how an animal's intelligence could be irrelevant to the lack of technology in a species.




There are other animals that live above ground, too...many are somewhat intelligent...still nothing...not a single thing...in 1000s of species over 1000s of years.

You don't find that the slight bit curious?

Not particularly.

Again, we need to agree on a vocabulary to discuss this in the right manner.

When you say, "not a single thing." That is so ambiguous that it is hard for me to grasp what you are talking about.

We have already established that other animals use simple tools. Higher primates do fashion and modify sticks and stones.

Give me a better definition of the type of technology you have in mind. They I'll try to explain why no other animal has come up with it.

I'd say that it is a combination of intelligence, physical attributes, environment, and social behavior.

If I didn't know better, I would think you are trying to open a door to a "proof of God" type discussion.

Rollyn01
10-21-2015, 01:49 AM
If I didn't know better, I would think you are trying to open a door to a "proof of God" type discussion.

Now that you mentioned it, it does seem like it would be easy to interject God into the discussion about why. Not that it would fly even in the most conventional sense, but such discussions without the proper frame would easily lose way to the notion that the only reason that we were able to develop technology is because of our connection to a higher power.

Mjölnir
10-21-2015, 02:39 AM
Dogs, cats, octopuses and all kinds of animals can problem solve, communicate on various levels and learn taught behavior.

As @absinthe Anectdote points out, there are a variety of factors:intelligence, physical attributes, environment, and social behavior ... one of the primary things that comes to mind is our ability to think abstractly better than other species. Realizing I want to drink water is instinct, cupping my hands to get more water to my mouth is problem solving ... creating a cup, canteen, water bladder to transport water involves abstract thought.

Now, why do our brains work this way? Who knows. Other animals are capable of abstract thought, but at some point a hominid had a brain that did it better than the others, the descendants were more successful than the others and their numbers grew. From one perspective, "because God created us this way" may be the answer ... I don't think that proves an existence of God though. It could also be argued that the space aliens that visited earth 100,000 years ago made us this way.

MikeKerriii
10-21-2015, 04:39 AM
So, not really an "evolution" question or a religion question...

...but, it seems people like to say certain animals are really smart, or almost as smart as humans...chimps, dolphins, dogs, etc.

No doubt some of them can be smart "for an animal"....but why after 1000s of years of watching us has no other species done so much as invent a wheel, or manufacturing processes, or even written language for themselves? How far ahead in technology would man be by now if we had a more advanced species to watch all this time?

You would think by now there would've been some genius chimpanzees that could invent stuff (modeling ours at least) and make life better in the chimp world...
Making life "better" doesn't matter at all in evolutionary biology, having kids that survive and have did of their own is ability the only things that matter. By evolutionary standards a human pales beside a roach

For may species the brain size and the metabolism required to support intelligence would meant pretty -paid extinction. I came in very handing to a bipedal primal that had to leave the trees, but if you are not built to use tools, I don't see how the advantages. And remember that out ability to create and use tools to a very long time to develop.

MikeKerriii
10-21-2015, 04:50 AM
I'm not joking.

Keep in mind...dolphins are just one example. Is your hypothesis that dolphins just happend to be the one animal that is capable of tech, but has not need or physical ability to do so?

There are other animals that live above ground, too...many are somewhat intelligent...still nothing...not a single thing...in 1000s of species over 1000s of years.

You don't find that the slight bit curious?

Millions of specie of thousands of years is too small a sample to mean much

First tell me what intelligence would give a dog for example that a wild dog doesn't have

A Africa parrot is about as smart as a three year old, what advantage would making it as smart as a adult give it that would b not be outweighed by being to heavy to fly and requiring a far hire caloric in,

Bos Mutus
10-21-2015, 05:47 AM
And remember that out ability to create and use tools to a very long time to develop.

I'll respond to this last sentence since it's the only one I understood what you were talking about.

...haven't all animals had a least as much time as humans?

Bos Mutus
10-21-2015, 05:52 AM
If I didn't know better, I would think you are trying to open a door to a "proof of God" type discussion.

I'm not submitting it as proof of a God I don't believe in...but, I'll say, just because I don't believe in any known god, doesn't mean I don't wonder about things...and this is something that I find troubling in a purely "man is just one of the animals" evolutionary theory.

I'm no biologist, by any means, but for the most part, I believe in evolution over millions of years. The exceptionalism of Humans seems odd to me in that environment, though.

Not saying it's not possible to explain under evolution...but it's a bit troubling to me....would seem unlikely that one and only one species developed any ability whatsoever to develop technology and we've developed it to such an astounding level as to travel to the moon...while raccoons have not so much as figured out a wheelbarrow...seems odd.

I suppose we could surmise that it didn't start out great...but that once we developed a smidgen of the ability to learn and record things, that ability went on an exponential growth...but I dunno...still seems like some other species would've picked up a few more tips from us.

So, yeah, I guess there is reason I put this in the Religion sub-topic.

I'm not saying I have the answer...I'm saying this is an unresolved question for me...and I haven't seen any compelling answers in here, either. The focus of this board, however, seems to be to "combat a point" (of which I really had none)...rather than simply ponder on things. So, "open a door" to the discussion...yeah, I stand convicted.

"The vacuum created by the arrival of freedom
And the possibilities it seems to offer
It's got nothing to do with you, if one can grasp it
Up the hill backwards, it'll be alright...oooh oooh"
~ David Bowie

Absinthe Anecdote
10-21-2015, 11:07 AM
I'm not submitting it as proof of a God I don't believe in...but, I'll say, just because I don't believe in any known god, doesn't mean I don't wonder about things...and this is something that I find troubling in a purely "man is just one of the animals" evolutionary theory.

I'm no biologist, by any means, but for the most part, I believe in evolution over millions of years. The exceptionalism of Humans seems odd to me in that environment, though.

Not saying it's not possible to explain under evolution...but it's a bit troubling to me....would seem unlikely that one and only one species developed any ability whatsoever to develop technology and we've developed it to such an astounding level as to travel to the moon...while raccoons have not so much as figured out a wheelbarrow...seems odd.

I suppose we could surmise that it didn't start out great...but that once we developed a smidgen of the ability to learn and record things, that ability went on an exponential growth...but I dunno...still seems like some other species would've picked up a few more tips from us.

So, yeah, I guess there is reason I put this in the Religion sub-topic.

I'm not saying I have the answer...I'm saying this is an unresolved question for me...and I haven't seen any compelling answers in here, either. The focus of this board, however, seems to be to "combat a point" (of which I really had none)...rather than simply ponder on things. So, "open a door" to the discussion...yeah, I stand convicted.

"The vacuum created by the arrival of freedom
And the possibilities it seems to offer
It's got nothing to do with you, if one can grasp it
Up the hill backwards, it'll be alright...oooh oooh"
~ David Bowie

If you think about the size of the universe, we haven't gone very far.

We are only beginning to understand what else is out there, but if we keep our discussion confined to life on earth, I'm still not bothered by humans being the sole purveyors of technology.

Many conditions have to be present for an animal to start developing technology, and modern humans haven't been around that long in comparison to the timeline of life on earth.

We are a rarity on earth, but the big question for me is, "are we a rarity in the universe?"

I think we are on the verge of finding out, maybe even in our lifetime.

Anyway, I can see why you ponder such a question. However, it doesn't bother me to the point that I'm ready to open a supernatural bag of tricks to answer it.

"God must have did it."

Is an incredibly dumb way to answer any question.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-21-2015, 11:18 AM
I must admit I expected different sort of responses to the question...not the "they can, they just choose not to cuz they don't need it" or "they don't have the dexterity" replies I've gotten.

.

What type of responses were you expecting?

Bos Mutus
10-21-2015, 02:43 PM
If you think about the size of the universe, we haven't gone very far.

We are only beginning to understand what else is out there, but if we keep our discussion confined to life on earth, I'm still not bothered by humans being the sole purveyors of technology.

Many conditions have to be present for an animal to start developing technology, and modern humans haven't been around that long in comparison to the timeline of life on earth.

We are a rarity on earth, but the big question for me is, "are we a rarity in the universe?"

Yes, I agree with that. Contemplating the vastness of the universe is humbling...and makes it nearly impossible in my mind to believe there is a personal God that knows and loves us, etc.


I think we are on the verge of finding out, maybe even in our lifetime.

Would be interesting to see how we all process that information...


Anyway, I can see why you ponder such a question. However, it doesn't bother me to the point that I'm ready to open a supernatural bag of tricks to answer it.

"God must have did it."

Is an incredibly dumb way to answer any question.

I'm not answering it that way...

Bos Mutus
10-21-2015, 02:59 PM
What type of responses were you expecting?

Well, as you said, it opens the door to the God discussion and that we are his special creation...so I expected some of that.

...and expected others to say that we are really just way more intelligent than other species.

I don't find either answer to be very compelling, really...hence, the "unanswered question" for me.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-21-2015, 03:40 PM
Well, as you said, it opens the door to the God discussion and that we are his special creation...so I expected some of that.

...and expected others to say that we are really just way more intelligent than other species.

I don't find either answer to be very compelling, really...hence, the "unanswered question" for me.

A few years ago I went on a pre-history reading binge and read everything I could on the early origins of humans.

Between the mapping of the human G-nome and some recent archaeological discoveries there is a lot of new information on our origins.

National Geographic has ran a series of articles on modern man's early migrations. It is very interesting stuff, and shines some light on how we started to develop technology.

You should read some of it because it speaks to some of your questions in a indirect manner.

MikeKerriii
10-21-2015, 05:13 PM
I'll respond to this last sentence since it's the only one I understood what you were talking about.

...haven't all animals had a least as much time as humans? Ans much time but far less b need Humans are third rate omnivores, whose only biological advantages a is our ability to run down just about oat anything, What good would a tool creating and using brain to for an animal that can;t use tools? A Bear with the brain of Spinoza would have the same problems as a "bear of little brain"

Brains have a cost metabolic , large brains have a very heavy cost. what animals would have more children that survive

You seem to think that evolution has goals and that intelligence is some special category of biological tool, It does not appear that i that is so, otherwise humans would outnumber sardines

MikeKerriii
10-21-2015, 05:20 PM
Well, as you said, it opens the door to the God discussion and that we are his special creation...so I expected some of that.

...and expected others to say that we are really just way more intelligent than other species.

I don't find either answer to be very compelling, really...hence, the "unanswered question" for me.

sometimes the answers in science/reality are simply banal., and provide no emotional satisfaction. But then reality just doesn't give a damn whether we accept reality at all

Rainmaker
10-21-2015, 06:05 PM
sometimes the answers in science/reality are simply banal., and provide no emotional satisfaction. But then reality just doesn't give a damn whether we accept reality at all

I find interesting that a social justice crusader like yourself would say that.

Rainmaker loves it when the Atheists come out of the woodwork and start debating the merits of the theory of evolution......

Every Good Modern "Liberal Education" https://books.google.com/books/about/How_the_Order_controls_education.html?id=tp8WAQAAC AAJ&hl=en

Must first Begin with Darwin's "On the origin of species" - by means of natural selection, or the preservation of favoured races in the struggle for life" (They always like to leave that 2nd part off)

Anyhow,

There's quite a nice little catalog of people in there. I think you'd be interested to see which "races" Darwin Considered to be "Irredeemable" ( Hint: it ain't the Swedish Blondes)

http://www.heretical.com/darwin/darwin4.html

Rainmaker
10-21-2015, 06:15 PM
I like this only because of the David Bowie quote..

The Darwin Wedgwood family is composed of two interrelated English Families.

Ancestry of Charles Darwin...

Francis Galton.

Sir Francis Galton FRS (1822-1911) made important contributions to statistics and is known as THE FATHER OF EUGENICS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin%E2%80%93Wedgwood_family

UncaRastus
10-21-2015, 06:28 PM
Margaret Sanger is called the Mother of Eugenics.

http://liveactionnews.org/7-shocking-quotes-by-planned-parenthoods-founder/

Rainmaker
10-21-2015, 10:04 PM
Margaret Sanger is called the Mother of Eugenics.

http://liveactionnews.org/7-shocking-quotes-by-planned-parenthoods-founder/

But, Even better than Chuck Darwin's "Origin of the Species of the Favoured Races" is his 2nd book "Descent of Man" were he concludes that only 5% of the population is still evolving and the rest are just evolutionary dead ends that can't be improved...which naturally leads to His younger Cousin Frankie Galton's "Progressive" idea of Eugenics. (i.e Sterilizing, Enslaving or Killing "undesirables" for the Greater Collective Good).

UncaRastus
10-21-2015, 11:25 PM
Your post makes me want to listen to some Motown. Maybe 'Time', by the Chamber Brothers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHfB63ln1Ig

Dig it, dude.

By the way, please don't do the cabbage patch, nor the bump. Just kick back and feed your head with a good old time 1968 funkadelic tune, bro.

Peace and love

Rainmaker
10-22-2015, 02:22 AM
Your post makes me want to listen to some Motown. Maybe 'Time', by the Chamber Brothers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHfB63ln1Ig

Dig it, dude.

By the way, please don't do the cabbage patch, nor the bump. Just kick back and feed your head with a good old time 1968 funkadelic tune, bro.

Peace and love


Rainmaker preciates the way the MTF moderators moderate in moderation....
Chamber Bros is good stuff. Now, speaking of freaks and hairies... How bout a little 'Ten Years after' Chaser Uncle?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bvhno8-YjQ

Mjölnir
10-22-2015, 02:41 AM
Rainmaker preciates the way the MTF moderators moderate in moderation....
Chamber Bros is good stuff. Now, speaking of freaks and hairies... How bout a little 'Ten Years after' Chaser Uncle?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bvhno8-YjQ

Moderatin' ain't easy ...

http://forum.corsair.com/v3/picture.php?albumid=1&pictureid=1412

UncaRastus
10-22-2015, 04:12 PM
I do fear that I have led us astray. We must get back on the subject. While we are doing so, listen to this bit of tomfoolery, as thought up by the dudes in the group, 'Focus', by Hocus Pocus, lyrics:

http://www.lyricsmania.com/hocus_pocus_lyrics_focus.html

The song, which does differ a bit (in the telling):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD5e5URihsQ


Mjolnir, herding cats is easier to do. But you know that.

As Teddy R. once said, 'Walk softly, but carry a big hammer. A really big hammer. Include some catnip. '

UncaRastus
10-22-2015, 07:06 PM
I would have to believe in a higher power instead of evolution. Have any of you ever seen the image of Darwin appear on a piece of toast?

I didn't think so.

;)

Absinthe Anecdote
10-23-2015, 04:27 PM
'cause things have been slow around here lately. I did enjoy lurking on the 'animals are dumb' thread. As I said there, very entertaining.

This was a fun thread, but not in a necessarily in a humorous way.

Why were you so amused?

Absinthe Anecdote
10-23-2015, 04:51 PM
The prospect of Flipperville seems unlikely.





Following from the previous discussion, scientists at this point have no reason to believe that, unlike human language, the natural communication system of dolphins can do the following things:

Refer to objects in their environment

Refer to abstract concepts

Combine small meaningful elements into larger meaningful elements

Organize communicative elements into a systematic grammar that can produce an infinite combination of meanings

Refer to things in the past and the future

Learn and store in memory the meanings of hundreds of thousands of concepts and map them onto specific combinations of vocal patterns

http://www.dolphincommunicationproject.org/index.php/2014-10-21-00-13-26/dolphin-language

Rusty Jones
10-25-2015, 04:46 AM
I would have to believe in a higher power instead of evolution. Have any of you ever seen the image of Darwin appear on a piece of toast?

I didn't think so.

;)

There's an image of Kermit the Frog on Mars and an image of Miss Piggy on Venus. Maybe they're gods?

Absinthe Anecdote
10-25-2015, 12:43 PM
What is going on when a bower bird builds its elaborate nest to attract a mate?

It looks like abstract thinking of to me.

http://s3files.core77.com/blog/images/2014/03/0bowerbirdnests-006.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/94/88/ed/9488ede535fcb06ba02f84e68e07a111.gif

http://www.besgroup.org/wp-content/uploads/29-bowerbird2.jpg

Rusty Jones
10-25-2015, 01:24 PM
What is going on when a bower bird builds its elaborate nest to attract a mate?

It looks like abstract thinking of to me.

http://s3files.core77.com/blog/images/2014/03/0bowerbirdnests-006.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/94/88/ed/9488ede535fcb06ba02f84e68e07a111.gif

http://www.besgroup.org/wp-content/uploads/29-bowerbird2.jpg

Dolphins can't even do that.

UncaRastus
10-25-2015, 02:29 PM
Rusty, I did put a wink on my post. ;) You know, as in sarcasm.

Mjölnir
10-25-2015, 02:40 PM
Dolphins can't even do that.

However ...

http://www.amusingtime.com/images/044/funny-dolphin-trick-gif-picture-for-facebook.gif

Rusty Jones
10-25-2015, 02:49 PM
Rusty, I did put a wink on my post. ;) You know, as in sarcasm.

Right, because somehow my response that mentioned Kermit and Piggy indicated that I didn't get that...

UncaRastus
10-25-2015, 03:03 PM
Rusty,

In here, we never know. So, yeah. Had to make sure!

Absinthe Anecdote
10-25-2015, 03:39 PM
However ...

http://www.amusingtime.com/images/044/funny-dolphin-trick-gif-picture-for-facebook.gif

Back in the early 2000s I was listening to the Don & Mike radio show and they were reading from a website of a Florida couple who had a dolphin fetish.

It seems the original website is gone, but someone made a copy of the original.

http://www.insolitology.com/guides/fuckdolphin.htm

I'm thinking this was a hoax, but Don & Mike did call the person on air. If I remember correctly, Don & Mike also deemed it a hoax, but the person they talked to stuck to their claims.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-25-2015, 03:50 PM
Ugh, I was thinking that was total bullshit until I saw this.


http://youtu.be/2GaNMeWbrXg

UncaRastus
10-25-2015, 05:45 PM
Male dolphins, when they are in close proximity to women that are on their period? Sometimes they don't care which animal they get 'frisky' with.

UncaRastus
10-25-2015, 05:52 PM
And we wonder where mermaids and mermen come from? ;)

142

Rusty Jones
10-26-2015, 12:01 PM
Male dolphins, when they are in close proximity to women that are on their period? Sometimes they don't care which animal they get 'frisky' with.

Julia Roberts almost got raped by an orangutan back in 1996, when they were shooting a scene. Apparently, there are numerous instances of male orangutans being attracted to female humans.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-26-2015, 12:37 PM
It didn't go very far, but I'm sure she was scared.


http://youtu.be/I6GdRxImID8

Bos Mutus
10-26-2015, 01:50 PM
Hank Hill got raped by a dolphin.
~
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaH3E3ZN8zs

UncaRastus
10-26-2015, 02:02 PM
Both Julia and Hank came on to them there mammals. They both 'made eyes' towards those cute animals. It was their fault, not the critters. The brave orangutan and the dolphin only did what they were programmed by nature to do.

;)

Rusty Jones
10-26-2015, 02:27 PM
Interestingly enough, orangutans were once considered to be the most intelligent animal after humans. Chimpanzees (including bonobos) came next, but it's the reverse now.

If humans died out, could any species of ape step and assume our role in the world? I really think that only two things need to be fixed, and they possibly could: manual dexterity, so that they can do things that require accuracy and precision; and the ability to talk.

A few years ago, I was following up on the story of a bonobo named Kanzi. He lives in captivity, and is able to communicate through using a touch screen computer with logographic words on it. Apparently, the people who have Kanzi in captivity believe that bonobos may have the ability to talk. A few years ago, Kanzi had a daughter and they wanted to try to raise her to speak. However, much to their dismay, she turned out to be autistic.

But, imagine if such a thing becomes a success in the future? This opens up a ton of possibilities for us to know what bonobos are capable of doing.

UncaRastus
10-26-2015, 05:40 PM
From what I have heard, bonobos are the non fighting bunch. They get along with each other. If they could become the leaders of this planet?

Not too bad a bunch of successors, right?