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Absinthe Anecdote
08-18-2015, 06:53 PM
The DREAM Act—a popular proposal to provide legal status to undocumented youth who entered the U.S. as children, graduated from U.S. high schools, and attend college or enter the military—is the target of a smear campaign from anti-immigration hardliners.

According to them, passage of the DREAM Act would cheat native-born students out of opportunities. This tired effort to pit immigrants and native-born—whether they are workers or students—against one another is not only destructive, but has no basis in fact.

Moreover, it ignores the economic benefits that come from legalizing a group of talented, hard-working individuals who want nothing more than to contribute to America and repay the country for the opportunities they’ve been given.

Read more...http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/just-facts/dispelling-dream-act-myths

http://www.homoquotables.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/dreamact3.jpg

http://nysiaf.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/DREAM-Act-baby-300x226.png

http://www.navigatemn.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Slide3.jpg

https://dreamerswithoutborders.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/5873_juana_display.jpg

Rainmaker
08-18-2015, 07:14 PM
The DREAM Act—a popular proposal to provide legal status to undocumented youth who entered the U.S. as children, graduated from U.S. high schools, and attend college or enter the military—is the target of a smear campaign from anti-immigration hardliners.

According to them, passage of the DREAM Act would cheat native-born students out of opportunities. This tired effort to pit immigrants and native-born—whether they are workers or students—against one another is not only destructive, but has no basis in fact.

Moreover, it ignores the economic benefits that come from legalizing a group of talented, hard-working individuals who want nothing more than to contribute to America and repay the country for the opportunities they’ve been given.

Read more...http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/just-facts/dispelling-dream-act-myths

http://www.homoquotables.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/dreamact3.jpg

http://nysiaf.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/DREAM-Act-baby-300x226.png

http://www.navigatemn.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Slide3.jpg

https://dreamerswithoutborders.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/5873_juana_display.jpg

American Immigration Council.

Pro amnesty lefty front group funded by George Soros.

Soros The notorious parasitic currency collapser.

Why's he doing this?

Hint: he's betting long against the dollar.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
08-18-2015, 08:16 PM
The DREAM Act—a popular proposal to provide legal status to undocumented youth who entered the U.S. as children, graduated from U.S. high schools, and attend college or enter the military—is the target of a smear campaign from anti-immigration hardliners.

According to them, passage of the DREAM Act would cheat native-born students out of opportunities. This tired effort to pit immigrants and native-born—whether they are workers or students—against one another is not only destructive, but has no basis in fact.

Moreover, it ignores the economic benefits that come from legalizing a group of talented, hard-working individuals who want nothing more than to contribute to America and repay the country for the opportunities they’ve been given.

Read more...http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/just-facts/dispelling-dream-act-myths

http://www.homoquotables.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/dreamact3.jpg

http://nysiaf.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/DREAM-Act-baby-300x226.png

http://www.navigatemn.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Slide3.jpg

https://dreamerswithoutborders.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/5873_juana_display.jpg

REAL American college grads struggle to find work, so please enlighten me on how these illegals will benefit our economy.

Rainmaker
08-18-2015, 08:40 PM
REAL American college grads struggle to find work, so please enlighten me on how these illegals will benefit our economy.

Trying to teach these people about the law of supply and demand is like trying to teach a Fish how to climb a friggin tree.

One of the reasons (among many)that American kids struggle to find work is because, these companies would rather hire immigrants on H1B Visas as, they have weak negotiating leverage.

H1B transfer is a huge pain in the ass and it takes 7 years to convert your H1B Visa into a green card.

It's basically a skilled indentured servitude program.

Also, they greatly overestimate their credentials. This is big business and is what happens when the people allow their country to be subverted by treasonous politicians in both parties that sell out to transnational interests.

we have plenty of American kids with tech skills that are more than capable shouldn't we be hiring them first?

We have created a lost generation of Americans, in debt up to their ass with piss poor future job prospects.

And Without a radical change of direction, we are going to lose Dollar Hegemony next. And all the parasites that are behind the collapse will have their jets waiting to leave the country after they have destroyed it.

Jeb Rubio and Hill-Billary Gore are not going to fix this.

Now, Stand by for Gnashing of teeth from brainwashed Marxists (that think they're moderates) shrieking about Hitler, The Beer Hall Putsch, Krystallnacht. Xenopobia..... Etc. etc.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-18-2015, 09:04 PM
REAL American college grads struggle to find work, so please enlighten me on how these illegals will benefit our economy.

Unfortunately I can't read it for you. You'll have to read it to find out.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-18-2015, 09:06 PM
American Immigration Council.

Pro amnesty lefty front group funded by George Soros.

Soros The notorious parasitic currency collapser.

Why's he doing this?

Hint: he's betting long against the dollar.

Typical radical right tactic, start screaming about conspiracies and George Soros.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-18-2015, 09:14 PM
http://dallasmorningviewsblog.dallasnews.com/files/2012/06/dreamact.jpg

The radical right wants to deport this cute baby.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2015/2/10/1423527054879/501accb5-883b-40e1-b516-e1ba02ac1ba6-2060x1236.jpeg

And these adorable kittens

https://pilotdesigns.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/5-cute-kittens2.jpg

MikeKerriii
08-18-2015, 09:39 PM
REAL American college grads struggle to find work, so please enlighten me on how these illegals will benefit our economy.

Real American college graduates, at least those with degrees that are useful to companies have very little trouble finding work. The problem is that too many degrees are in things of little use to an employer.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-18-2015, 09:54 PM
Real American college graduates, at least those with degrees that are useful to companies have very little trouble finding work. The problem is that too many degrees are in things of little use to an employer.

I've got this, just hang back until I give you permission to comment.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
08-18-2015, 09:57 PM
Real American college graduates, at least those with degrees that are useful to companies have very little trouble finding work. The problem is that too many degrees are in things of little use to an employer.

Ok, so what should we do about Dreamers pursuing non-desirable degrees or skills, put them on welfare and hand them EBT cards?

Absinthe Anecdote
08-18-2015, 10:26 PM
Ok, so what should we do about Dreamers pursuing non-desirable degrees or skills, put them on welfare and hand them EBT cards?

Mike isn't authorized to speak for the Dreamers, so his point is misleading.

MikeKerriii
08-19-2015, 12:31 AM
I've got this, just hang back until I give you permission to comment.

You have given up trying to be clever? I don't need your permission to do anything.

MikeKerriii
08-19-2015, 12:31 AM
Ok, so what should we do about Dreamers pursuing non-desirable degrees or skills, put them on welfare and hand them EBT cards?

What the hell are you talking about?

Absinthe Anecdote
08-19-2015, 01:23 AM
You have given up trying to be clever? I don't need your permission to do anything.

Look, I don't like your tone. I've told you once to stay out of this, you aren't qualified to speak for liberals.

I might let you cut and paste stuff from liberal websites, but I don't want to see you typing your own words in here again.

garhkal
08-19-2015, 04:25 AM
REAL American college grads struggle to find work, so please enlighten me on how these illegals will benefit our economy.

Plus, why should they benefit from their parent's illegal acts (bringing them here as kids, or being here illegally before having the kid), when in damn near every other case where a person 'benefits from the illegal acts of the parents' they LOSE that benefit, such as the kid who loses his Xbox cause it was stolen by dad..


http://dallasmorningviewsblog.dallasnews.com/files/2012/06/dreamact.jpg

The radical right wants to deport this cute baby.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2015/2/10/1423527054879/501accb5-883b-40e1-b516-e1ba02ac1ba6-2060x1236.jpeg

And these adorable kittens

https://pilotdesigns.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/5-cute-kittens2.jpg

I couldn't care less if the 'baby is cute or not. Here illegally, get deported!

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
08-19-2015, 03:19 PM
What the hell are you talking about?

Ok, you are obviously a fan of Dreamers and believe they will benefit our economy. My question to you is, how will they benefit our economy if they are pursuing careers that are not in demand? In these cases, they will find it difficult to find a job, but not so difficult to find government assistance. How should we deal with this issue?

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
08-19-2015, 03:20 PM
Plus, why should they benefit from their parent's illegal acts (bringing them here as kids, or being here illegally before having the kid), when in damn near every other case where a person 'benefits from the illegal acts of the parents' they LOSE that benefit, such as the kid who loses his Xbox cause it was stolen by dad..


I couldn't care less if the 'baby is cute or not. Here illegally, get deported!

Thanks for presenting an awesome anology (Dad steals xbox, so kid does not get to keep it).

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
08-19-2015, 03:21 PM
Mike isn't authorized to speak for the Dreamers, so his point is misleading.

You don't speak for Mike. I welcome his opinion.

Rainmaker
08-19-2015, 03:35 PM
I couldn't care less if the 'baby is cute or not. Here illegally, get deported!

GOOD GOD MAN!!! HAVE YOU NO SOUL?? You're talking about DEPORTING A BABY!!!

That baby passes Rainmaker's initial eye test.... Now, We'd still need to see what the parents look like.... But, I say he stays (at least temporarily until we get more information).

garhkal
08-19-2015, 04:13 PM
Ok, you are obviously a fan of Dreamers and believe they will benefit our economy. My question to you is, how will they benefit our economy if they are pursuing careers that are not in demand? In these cases, they will find it difficult to find a job, but not so difficult to find government assistance. How should we deal with this issue?

Plus since it has been proven many a time, that illegals send money back to their home nation, how does THAT benefit our economy?

UncaRastus
08-19-2015, 04:53 PM
I have a boat. Not a real 'dream' boat, but still, a boat.

There is this semi feral cat that sleeps on our porch and eats on our porch. When she first arrived, she was a kitten, half grown, that someone dumped here. She was on our porch, barely able to move, because she was so malnourished.

I. Do. Not. Like. Cats. However, at the time, I thought about what I should do. So I fed and watered her. When she was large enough, I trapped her with a Havahart trap, then took her to the vet for a flea and tick bath, and to have her spayed.

Spayed, because one cat hanging around on my porch is all that I can barely stand. However, the wife likes cats. Even though she is allergic to cats. Angie is the reason that I saved the cat.

Anyway, back to the boat. I would capture kittens that were released onto my property. When we used the boat, we used those kittens as boat anchors.

Our semi feral cat was a great way to lure those kittens onto our porch.

Now, come on. The cat babies being used as anchors?

That's how I dealt with anchor babies.

My wife just looked as what I was writing and said that I one sick puppy. That none of that ever happened.

OK. Angie is correct. At least I was called a puppy, and not a cat. I like that, anyway!

;)

Absinthe Anecdote
08-19-2015, 05:00 PM
I have a boat. Not a real 'dream' boat, but still, a boat.

There is this semi feral cat that sleeps on our porch and eats on our porch. When she first arrived, she was a kitten, half grown, that someone dumped here. She was on our porch, barely able to move, because she was so malnourished.

I. Do. Not. Like. Cats. However, at the time, I thought about what I should do. So I fed and watered her. When she was large enough, I trapped her with a Havahart trap, then took her to the vet for a flea and tick bath, and to have her spayed.

Spayed, because one cat hanging around on my porch is all that I can barely stand. However, the wife likes cats. Even though she is allergic to cats. Angie is the reason that I saved the cat.

Anyway, back to the boat. I would capture kittens that were released onto my property. When we used the boat, we used those kittens as boat anchors.

Our semi feral cat was a great way to lure those kittens onto our porch.

Now, come on. The cat babies being used as anchors?

That's how I dealt with anchor babies.

My wife just looked as what I was writing and said that I one sick puppy. That none of that ever happened.

OK. Angie is correct. At least I was called a puppy, and not a cat. I like that, anyway!

;)

Cats are awesome.


http://youtu.be/1RMqrycozgE

Rainmaker
08-19-2015, 05:08 PM
Cats are awesome.



It doesn't surprise me that you'd say that.....Because, You know who else loved cats? The Prophet Muhammad!


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_cats

Absinthe Anecdote
08-19-2015, 05:12 PM
This doesn't surprise me that you say that.....Because, You know who else loved cats? The Prophet Muhammad!


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_cats

I'm surprised you don't like them too. After all, you are into merely another brand of worshiping all that voodoo that the tribal sand people invented.

I think Saint Pius X liked cats too.

Bos Mutus
08-19-2015, 05:17 PM
I have a boat. Not a real 'dream' boat, but still, a boat.

There is this semi feral cat that sleeps on our porch and eats on our porch. When she first arrived, she was a kitten, half grown, that someone dumped here. She was on our porch, barely able to move, because she was so malnourished.

I. Do. Not. Like. Cats. However, at the time, I thought about what I should do. So I fed and watered her. When she was large enough, I trapped her with a Havahart trap, then took her to the vet for a flea and tick bath, and to have her spayed.

Spayed, because one cat hanging around on my porch is all that I can barely stand. However, the wife likes cats. Even though she is allergic to cats. Angie is the reason that I saved the cat.

Anyway, back to the boat. I would capture kittens that were released onto my property. When we used the boat, we used those kittens as boat anchors.

Our semi feral cat was a great way to lure those kittens onto our porch.

Now, come on. The cat babies being used as anchors?

That's how I dealt with anchor babies.

My wife just looked as what I was writing and said that I one sick puppy. That none of that ever happened.

OK. Angie is correct. At least I was called a puppy, and not a cat. I like that, anyway!

;)

So, you're advocating involuntary sterilization of immigrants?

Rainmaker
08-19-2015, 05:18 PM
I'm surprised you don't like them too. After all, you are into merely another brand of worshiping all that voodoo that the tribal sand people invented.

I think Saint Pius X liked cats too.

I think you may be right...... If I recall correctly, I remember seeing a "documentary" you posted on that from The Xinhua News Agency.

Bos Mutus
08-19-2015, 05:24 PM
I think you may be right...... If I recall correctly, I remember seeing a "documentary" you posted on that from The Xinhua News Agency.

Like you said,

"Just because David Duke posts it, doesn't mean it's factually incorrect" (paraphrase, I think)

MikeKerriii
08-19-2015, 05:31 PM
Ok, you are obviously a fan of Dreamers and believe they will benefit our economy. My question to you is, how will they benefit our economy if they are pursuing careers that are not in demand? In these cases, they will find it difficult to find a job, but not so difficult to find government assistance. How should we deal with this issue?

They will benefit out economy by doing what t most of the rest of the people raised in the US do getting jobs and working. Their ability to get Federal assistance under the current rules is almost non-existent.

MikeKerriii
08-19-2015, 05:35 PM
Look, I don't like your tone. I've told you once to stay out of this, you aren't qualified to speak for liberals.

I might let you cut and paste stuff from liberal websites, but I don't want to see you typing your own words in here again.
Who the hell cares what you want and who you decide can speak?

Rainmaker
08-19-2015, 05:36 PM
Like you said,

"Just because David Duke posts it, doesn't mean it's factually incorrect" (paraphrase, I think)

Aww, Now That's just precious... ...Nice of you to jump in and try and help your mentor....

Anyhow, Rainmaker Don't Disagree with that idea at all.

But, It is important to contrast How you hypocrites will immediately object to and discount David Duke's (a private American Citizen) opinions...And then you'll run around quoting State Run Propaganda Assets for foreign governments, as if they were unquestionable facts.

Bos Mutus
08-19-2015, 05:42 PM
REAL American college grads struggle to find work, so please enlighten me on how these illegals will benefit our economy.

Picture the economy like a Football team.

Okay, if you're a small public school in a small to medium size town...you get the players in town and put together a football team, you're limited to kids that live at addresses that are in your district...maybe you can get some out of town kid to put down their Grandma's address or something, but by and large, you play with local talent. It will probably not be a great team...maybe beat other small to medium size teams. It's possible that for a few years you have a couple special athletes that happen to live in your town...maybe the Manning family moves in...and you'll have some good years....but over the long haul, you're gonna struggle to consistently have great players because there is only so much talent in a small town.

Then maybe there is a big city team...that has thousands of kids to choose from to find the best....they have a much better chance of consistently finding great athetes...

Finally, there is the parochial school...that is allowed to recruit the best players from across the state and even out of state. You hire a former Division 1 coach who has lots of contacts among college scouts...so all the best players want to come there to play...even if they are "foreigners" to your town.

The more talent available to our economy, the stronger it is...it's that simple. It's competition, it's capitalism, it's the American Way. If you want to protect citizens from having to compete against foreigners...you're no capitalist.

Rainmaker
08-19-2015, 05:48 PM
Picture the economy like a Football team.

Okay, if you're a small public school in a small to medium size town...you get the players in town and put together a football team, you're limited to kids that live at addresses that are in your district...maybe you can get some out of town kid to put down their Grandma's address or something, but by and large, you play with local talent. It will probably not be a great team...maybe beat other small to medium size teams. It's possible that for a few years you have a couple special athletes that happen to live in your town...maybe the Manning family moves in...and you'll have some good years....but over the long haul, you're gonna struggle to consistently have great players because there is only so much talent in a small town.

Then maybe there is a big city team...that has thousands of kids to choose from to find the best....they have a much better chance of consistently finding great athetes...

Finally, there is the parochial school...that is allowed to recruit the best players from across the state and even out of state. You hire a former Division 1 coach who has lots of contacts among college scouts...so all the best players want to come there to play...even if they are "foreigners" to your town.

The more talent available to our economy, the stronger it is...it's that simple. It's competition, it's capitalism, it's the American Way. If you want to protect citizens from having to compete against foreigners...you're no capitalist.

This analogy is assuming you'd get to pick the talent.

what we have now is akin to large school (with an already full roster) being forced to take the shittiest players that got cut from other teams, and then forcing the coach to sideline his own players and suit the new one's up against the rival competition on game day (even if the new players suck).

You can't make a Chicken Salad out of Chicken Shit.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-19-2015, 06:01 PM
Who the hell cares what you want and who you decide can speak?

You might be able to speak just fine, but you have major troubles expressing yourself in written form.

You don't develop your thoughts well and routinely set the liberal cause up for counter attacks.

Frankly, I think you'd do liberals more good if you joined Rainmaker's team. That way, your dumb posts would sway more independents to the liberal way of thinking.

I'm sure Rainmaker would welcome you, provided you are willing to bash Jews, blacks and Mexicans.

You can be a double agent, I am confident that you are capable of posting like an idiot.

Bos Mutus
08-19-2015, 06:01 PM
This analogy is assuming you'd get to pick the talent.

Sure...that's a free market. Restricting immigration for fear of them beating out Americans in the job market is a step away from a free market and step toward communism.


what we have now is akin to large school with an already full roster being forced to take the shittiest players from other teams and then forcing the coach to suit them up against the competition on game day (even if the player sucks).

I can only educate one of you MFers at a time...I was explaining a simple principle to FLAPS. His question was how could allowing Dreamers help the economy. No one is forcing any team out there to hire shitty players in that context.

You know I'm right, you know I answered the question...so you throw out some irrelevant bullshit that is not applicable to the question to pretend like you still disagree with what I'm saying...illegal immigrants that don't speak English are not taking jobs from college-graduate Americans.

His question was when REAL American college grads are out of work, how can allowing illegals to study benefit the economy...and the answer is that competition helps the economy...that's the free market...REAL American college grads are not entitled to free jobs or jobs they don't have to compete for on the basis of their birthright, that's not how you make a healthy economy...they should have to earn them and compete for them...and if they have to compete against illegals to earn them...we are getting better talent in the job, legal or not.

That's not to say we should allow all illegal immigrants or simply stop having immigration laws...this is just ONE point...there are many variables at work in immigration policy and many many ways it can and should be improved and changed...but fear of them beating us in the job market and not understanding how that helps the overall economy isn't a good reason to not have them here...I was responding only to that one point.

You can't make Chicken Salad out Chicken Shit.

I don't accept your assertion that all immigrants are shit

Rainmaker
08-19-2015, 06:16 PM
I can only educate one of you MFers at a time...

You're not educating anybody bubba because, it's obvious you don't have a clue.

A wage is price for Labor. When you increase the supply of Labor, then the price for it (called a wage) goes down.

And Yes, they're essentially being forced.

If you are forced to compete against someone else that's using cheaper labor, you either have to use it yourself or you go out of fucking business.

Now, When you're forced to cut costs, two of the only areas that can be cut are labor and profit. your rent is your rent. your material is your material. you can't control that cost. and You're not in business to go broke, so what do you cut?

ultimately immigration, drives the wages down for everyone else here.

If we would quit bringing in all these taxpayer subsidized immigrants, and stop subsidizing half of our own citizens to just sit on their fat asses. Then, the wages for everyone would rise.

Even your Labor Zionist hero posing as independent (Bernie Glassberg Sanders) acknowledges that you can't have both open borders and social welfare state. It's the height of stupidity. One or the other has to go.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-19-2015, 06:28 PM
You're not educating anybody bubba because, it's obvious you don't have a clue.

A wage is price for Labor. When you increase the supply of Labor, then the price for it (called a wage) goes down.

And Yes, they're essentially being forced.

If you are forced to compete against someone else that's using cheaper labor, you either have to use it yourself or you go out of fucking business.

Now, When you're forced to cut costs, two of the only areas that can be cut are labor and profit. your rent is your rent. your material is your material. you can't control that cost. and You're not in business to go broke, so what do you cut?

ultimately immigration, drives the wages down for everyone else here.

.

Hey Mister economics expert, the labor market is highly segmented. It isn't all one big pool as you are suggesting with your explanation.

MikeKerriii
08-19-2015, 06:29 PM
You might be able to speak just fine, but you have major troubles expressing yourself in written form.

You don't develop your thoughts well and routinely set the liberal cause up for counter attacks.

Frankly, I think you'd do liberals more good if you joined Rainmaker's team. That way, your dumb posts would sway more independents to the liberal way of thinking.

I'm sure Rainmaker would welcome you, provided you are willing to bash Jews, blacks and Mexicans.

You can be a double agent, I am confident that you are capable of posting like an idiot.

If you don't like my posts feel free not to read them, problem solved.

Bos Mutus
08-19-2015, 06:33 PM
You're not educating anybody bubba because, it's obvious you don't have a clue.

A wage is price for Labor. When you increase the supply of Labor, then the price for it (called a wage) goes down.

And Yes, they're essentially being forced.

If you are forced to compete against someone else using cheaper labor, you either have to use it yourself or you go out of fucking business.

Now, When you're forced to cut costs, two of the only areas that can be cut are labor and profit. You're not in business to go broke.

So, immigration, drives the wages down for everyone else here.

If we would quit bringing in all these taxpayer subsidized immigrants, and stop subsidizing half of our own citizens to just sit on their fat asses. Then, the wages for everyone would rise.

Even your Labor Zionist hero posing as independent (Bernie Glassberg Sanders) acknowledges that you can't have both open borders and social welfare state. It's the height of stupidity.

This is the problem when people read just enough of Wikpedia to grasp a basic concept and think it applies to the whole world without variables.

What you say is based on some truth...wages are the cost of labor and all that...increase supply you decrease price...these are all very basic economic principles that work to teach students the basics of the forces that are at work....but it's sort of like studying physics...you study what happens in a vacuum to illustrate the principle...but the real world is not a vacuum, so then you have those principles but you have to account for many more things.

I will leave you with one concept that maybe you can think about for a week or so...the economy is not a fixed, closed, system.

In a fixed closed system, you have a certain amount of water vapor in a certain amount of air...you increase temperature and relative humidity decreases...happens every time, it can be not only predicted, but can be calculated...every time. I

n an open system...it can be 60 degrees today with 70% relative humidity...but tomorrow can be 95% with 92% relative humidity...that can not happen in a closed system. There are a LOT of things that contribute to both the temperature and humidity and how they interrelate in an open system.

If our economy were a closed sytem, what you say about labor and wages would be true all the time, we'd predict it and calculate it...but we are an expanding economy...we are not fixed in our production, nor are we fixed in what we produce...we are also competing in global market...so the increase in labor can also increase production, or develop new production...and can meet demand outside our own economy as well and increasing demand instead of simply reducing wages.

If you want to think more globally...we didn't "create new supply" we just moved it from one place to another...we do not operate in a vaccum. Nature abhors a vacuum.

The economy actually grows...that's what the Gold-standard morons don't get...if we were still on the gold standard, there would not be enough gold for all the production we are capable of...

Rainmaker
08-19-2015, 06:44 PM
This is the problem when people read just enough of Wikpedia to grasp a basic concept and think it applies to the whole world without variables.

What you say is based on some truth...wages are the cost of labor and all that...increase supply you decrease price...these are all very basic economic principles that work to teach students the basics of the forces that are at work....but it's sort of like studying physics...you study what happens in a vacuum to illustrate the principle...but the real world is not a vacuum, so then you have those principles but you have to account for many more things.

I will leave you with one concept that maybe you can think about for a week or so...the economy is not a fixed, closed, system.

In a fixed closed system, you have a certain amount of water vapor in a certain amount of air...you increase temperature and relative humidity decreases...happens every time, it can be not only predicted, but can be calculated...every time. I

n an open system...it can be 60 degrees today with 70% relative humidity...but tomorrow can be 95% with 92% relative humidity...that can not happen in a closed system. There are a LOT of things that contribute to both the temperature and humidity and how they interrelate in an open system.

If our economy were a closed sytem, what you say about labor and wages would be true all the time, we'd predict it and calculate it...but we are an expanding economy...we are not fixed in our production, nor are we fixed in what we produce...we are also competing in global market...so the increase in labor can also increase production, or develop new production...and can meet demand outside our own economy as well and increasing demand instead of simply reducing wages.

If you want to think more globally...we didn't "create new supply" we just moved it from one place to another...we do not operate in a vaccum. Nature abhors a vacuum.

The economy actually grows...that's what the Gold-standard morons don't get...if we were still on the gold standard, there would not be enough gold for all the production we are capable of...

No the problem is when people don't read for themselves and parrot what they hear from the paid shills in the monopoly owned media.

Yeah it's so complicated...no one could possibly understand....

We went off the gold standard because we went from a production economy that made things to an economic system based on debt.

you two parrots sound like a talmudic bankers echo chamber.

Bos Mutus
08-19-2015, 07:03 PM
Yeah it's so complicated...no one could possibly understand....

Although you meant this as a condescending snarky zinger...it's actually quite correct...no one could possibly understand and accurately predict all of the inputs, variables and outputs of the economy...at least no one has so far.

...people pay big bucks to try and predict the economy and no one gets it entirely right. It's like the ocean currents...can predict trends and overall movements to some degree...but if you think you got it all figured out you're mistaken.


We went off the gold standard because we went from a production economy that made things to an economic system based on debt.

you two parrots sound like a talmudic bankers echo chamber.

I see we've reduced back to bumper stickers and attempts at insults.

Weak.

Rainmaker
08-19-2015, 07:11 PM
I see we've reduced back to bumper stickers and attempts at insults.

Weak.

Not as weak as your lame ass football analogy trying to convince us that your landscaper is the economic equivalent of a free agent Peyton Manning. Sheesh.

Bos Mutus
08-19-2015, 07:17 PM
Not as weak as your lame ass football analogy trying to convince us that your landscaper is the economic equivalent of a free agent Peyton Manning. Sheesh.

Wow...what a clever comeback.

I'm bored.

Rainmaker
08-19-2015, 07:21 PM
Wow...what a clever comeback.

I'm bored.

Serious question because I've been wondering. What do you do for a living? Have you ever had a job with a company that wasn't dependent on a government agency to be its primary customer?

Bos Mutus
08-19-2015, 07:25 PM
Serious question because I've been wondering. What do you do for a living? Have you ever had a job with a company that wasn't dependent on a government agency to be its primary customer?

I have a tomato farm.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-19-2015, 07:26 PM
Serious question because I've been wondering. What do you do for a living? Have you ever had a job with a company that wasn't dependent on a government agency to be its primary customer?

Here we go again... Another episode of Lifestyles of the Rich and Racist...

This week's episode we take you on a tour of the Palatial estate of Rainmaker, get a peek inside the bunker of paranoia and view his collection of rusty hand-me-down pistols...

Absinthe Anecdote
08-19-2015, 07:30 PM
I have a tomato farm.

You should genetically cross your tomatoes with tobacco and call them tomacco.

They will taste like crap, but be highly addictive.

Then you can hire illegals to pick them and distribute them off the books.

UncaRastus
08-19-2015, 07:33 PM
AA,

You must source your already done idea to my hero Homer J Simpson.

Rainmaker
08-19-2015, 07:40 PM
I have a tomato farm.

Did you inherit your farm or did you just claim it for yourself in the reconquista?

Absinthe Anecdote
08-19-2015, 07:43 PM
AA,

You must source your already done idea to my Hero Homer J Simpson.

That was a great episode, wasn't it?

Rainmaker
08-19-2015, 07:51 PM
That was a great episode, wasn't it?

Hey abs Rainmaker requests permission to respond to one of MikeKerriii 's posts.

UncaRastus
08-19-2015, 07:54 PM
As to sterilizing immigrants, if we could do that to illegal immigrants (and we can't because illegals do a good job of hiding, many times), there wouldn't be anchor babies, unless of course, the females are impregnated before entering this country.

I am not proposing that we do that. That was just an idea, born out of your question. A bad idea, at that.

Shades of the US of A, prior to the Nazi forced eugenics program! Oh my! Even the use of sterilization here in the USA was practiced to form a better set of citizens!

Not so popular, it turns out.

So, I guess that I don't support sterilization of illegal immigrants, after all. I do, however think that the US of A should incorporate the old Spartan thing of seizing the children from their families, to train them to be good soldiers. No killing of helots while in training, though. Not even illegal helots.

Excuse me. Undocumented helots. What was I thinking?

And no, no one should leave 'unfit babies' on a mountain side. That just isn't cool.

UncaRastus
08-19-2015, 08:10 PM
AA,

Not sure if it was great or not, because I am too busy nackin' on some tomaccos, to pay any attention to that stuff.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-19-2015, 08:15 PM
Hey abs Rainmaker requests permission to respond to one of MikeKerriii 's posts.

I think he'd make a fine addition to your team.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
08-19-2015, 08:31 PM
Picture the economy like a Football team.

Okay, if you're a small public school in a small to medium size town...you get the players in town and put together a football team, you're limited to kids that live at addresses that are in your district...maybe you can get some out of town kid to put down their Grandma's address or something, but by and large, you play with local talent. It will probably not be a great team...maybe beat other small to medium size teams. It's possible that for a few years you have a couple special athletes that happen to live in your town...maybe the Manning family moves in...and you'll have some good years....but over the long haul, you're gonna struggle to consistently have great players because there is only so much talent in a small town.

Then maybe there is a big city team...that has thousands of kids to choose from to find the best....they have a much better chance of consistently finding great athetes...

Finally, there is the parochial school...that is allowed to recruit the best players from across the state and even out of state. You hire a former Division 1 coach who has lots of contacts among college scouts...so all the best players want to come there to play...even if they are "foreigners" to your town.

The more talent available to our economy, the stronger it is...it's that simple. It's competition, it's capitalism, it's the American Way. If you want to protect citizens from having to compete against foreigners...you're no capitalist.

Great, so can we not build this great team with LEGAL citizens? My issue is that our wonderful POTUS has opened the floodgates to millions of POOR people that will put an immediate strain on an already unsustainable entitlement system. Why can we not FIX the process of LEGAL immigration so we can limit the number of immigrants who are coming here with an immediate need/desire for taxpayer assistance? Perhaps you believe the US can't possibly benefit economically via legal immigration, and that the real answer is simply to open the borders up?

Getting back to the Dream Act specifically, what RIGHT do these young people have to stay in the US? Or perhaps you bought into the myth that it's somehow a "human rights" issue? They should leave the country, then reapply for work visas and otherwise follow the route other legal immigrants too to gain citizenship.

Rainmaker
08-19-2015, 09:02 PM
My issue is that our wonderful POTUS has opened the floodgates to millions of POOR people that will put an immediate strain on an already unsustainable entitlement system. Why


the plan is for Those Hundreds of Thousands of Yucatan Mayan pregnant women and babies to immediately take manual labor jobs working as indentured servants on Bos Mutus TM Tomato Farms.

You see, It hasn't been announced yet. But, a little bird told me that Bos has partnered In a joint venture with Monsanto and Dupont Danisco and developed a revolutionary, exciting new GMO Tommacco plant that's going to change farming as we know it.

So, All those Mestizo peasants (that can't even read and write Spanish let alone English) laboring for Big Bos are going to be the engine that drives the economy. FORWARD!!!

Bos Mutus
08-19-2015, 09:24 PM
Great, so can we not build this great team with LEGAL citizens?

In a purely competitive free market...that team would not be as strong.

It's simple...you build a baseball team and hold yourself only to U.S. citizens...and let me build one that allows U.S. citizens, plus Dominicans. We can have a draft and use current player statistics...who do you think will have the better team?


My issue is that our wonderful POTUS has opened the floodgates to millions of POOR people that will put an immediate strain on an already unsustainable entitlement system.

This is a valid concern...but is not what is keeping college educated Americans from finding work.


Why can we not FIX the process of LEGAL immigration so we can limit the number of immigrants who are coming here with an immediate need/desire for taxpayer assistance?

Because any Republican that whispers they might consider "Immigration Reform"...is immediately branded a Rino and laughed out of the primaries, regardless of how practical and effective their ideas might be.


Perhaps you believe the US can't possibly benefit economically via legal immigration, and that the real answer is simply to open the borders up?

Perhaps not...what a silly conclusion to jump to.


Getting back to the Dream Act specifically, what RIGHT do these young people have to stay in the US?

It's not really matter of them having a RIGHT to do so....nor is it a perfect answer.


Or perhaps you bought into the myth that it's somehow a "human rights" issue? They should leave the country, then reapply for work visas and otherwise follow the route other legal immigrants too to gain citizenship.

I don't know if I'd call it a "human rights" issue...no, I wouldn't. It's a less than ideal way of dealing with a problem. Deporting all illegal aliens is an impractical "solution" that is likely to cause more problems than it solves...like or not, our economy actually depends on illegals, at the moment.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
08-19-2015, 09:31 PM
like or not, our economy actually depends on illegals, at the moment.

Interesting comment. Is it because they are paid slave wages under the table? I get it now. You're right, we need to keep this going. For God's sake, we need to respect these jobs that no one in the right minds (i.e., legal citizens) would tolerate for such low wages.

Bos Mutus
08-19-2015, 09:37 PM
Did you inherit your farm or did you just claim it for yourself in the reconquista?


the plan is for Those Hundreds of Thousands of Yucatan Mayan pregnant women and babies to immediately take manual labor jobs working as indentured servants on Bos Mutus TM Tomato Farms.

You see, It hasn't been announced yet. But, a little bird told me that Bos has partnered In a joint venture with Monsanto and Dupont Danisco and developed a revolutionary, exciting new GMO Tommacco plant that's going to change farming as we know it.

So, All those Mestizo peasants (that can't even read and write Spanish let alone English) laboring for Big Bos are going to be the engine that drives the economy. FORWARD!!!

Having briefly tried to hold a substantive conversation on economics...Rainman found himself well out of his depth after paragraph 2 of Wikipedia and the Forward of Christopher Ferrara's latest book.

It's time for ad hominem attacks.

Rainman thinks, long and hard...uhm, well he thinks.


"Gee, the "You must be a Jew" accusations are such a hit down at the Kirby Stewart Post 24 American Legion...the crowd all shouts 'Burn!' when I do it there...but that tactic has fallen flat here amongst these guys.

I've even tried calling them Anti-Christian Atheist...but, they don't seem to mind that so much.

Well, in no way could I counter Bos's apparently educated opinion...oh, wait, ...educated...that's the clue, educated people are snobs, I'll attack his education! Oh wait, I already accused him of attending UMUC which made me look like a snob.

I'm out of ad hominem ammo! Maybe that .38 up my ass has a bullet or two. Oh...here's something about govt. lazy civil servants...also a big hit in Lower Alabama.

Dammit...I know he doesn't work for the govt...but maybe, just maybe, he works for a private company that sells shit to the govt....that's almost as good...that's the real ticket....if I can just figure out if that's what he really does...why, I can make an ad hominem attack that will complete distract my listening audience from the fact that I never got past paragraph one of Whiteypedia Macro Economics.....

Tomato Farmer....shit, that's real work. I know....I bet he doesn't harvest all those tomato plants himself...I bet I can make up some ridiculous hyperbole about this..."


What a joke.

Rainmaker
08-19-2015, 09:52 PM
Rainman thinks, long and hard...uhm, well he thinks.




What a joke.

It don't take a major in keynesian economic theory to figure out that you ain't worked a day in your life on no farm son. Nomsayin?

Bos Mutus
08-19-2015, 09:52 PM
Interesting comment. Is it because they are paid slave wages under the table?

It's because they work here and contribute to the economy...but yes, I would guess that many undocumented workers are exploited with slave wages under the table...many also work regular jobs, pay taxes and are integral parts of the community.


I get it now. You're right, we need to keep this going. For God's sake, we need to respect these jobs that no one in the right minds (i.e., legal citizens) would tolerate for such low wages.

Why, it almost sounds like you're advocating for a minimum wage now...we can stop the exaggeration and sarcasm and talk real problems if you want...just don't call yourself a conservative or a capitalist...because you certainly don't subscribe to the principles.

But, if you think immediately deporting all illegal aliens would not cause us problems you are crazy.

I agree we need to move away from what we have now...undocumented, exploited workers....

Rainmaker
08-19-2015, 10:00 PM
It's because they work here and contribute to the economy...but yes, I would guess that many undocumented workers are exploited with slave wages under the table...many also work regular jobs, pay taxes and are integral parts of the community.



Why, it almost sounds like you're advocating for a minimum wage now...we can stop the exaggeration and sarcasm and talk real problems if you want...just don't call yourself a conservative or a capitalist...because you certainly don't subscribe to the principles.

But, if you think immediately deporting all illegal aliens would not cause us problems you are crazy.

I agree we need to move away from what we have now...undocumented, exploited workers....

you seem really smart about economics. Maybe you can explain something to this conservahick....

How do all the illegal Alien landscapers in Sarasota Florida afford those $40,000 F250s?

I asked the radical right wing extremists over at legion post 24. But, they can't figure it out either.

Bos Mutus
08-19-2015, 10:04 PM
It don't take a major in keynesian economic theory to figure out that you ain't worked a day in your life on no farm son. Nomsayin?

Having been unable to successful launch another ad hominem attack, our protagonist struggles mightily for clever distractive snarky one liners...Drat! Foiled Again.

Bos Mutus
08-19-2015, 10:08 PM
you seem really smart about economics. Maybe you can explain something to this conservahick....

How do all the illegal Alien landscapers in Sarasota Florida afford those $40,000 F250s?

I know..what with all those depressed wages and what-not.


I asked the radical right wing extremists over at legion post 24. But, they can't figure it out either.

Landscaping can be pretty good money...

Rainmaker
08-19-2015, 10:23 PM
I know..what with all those depressed wages and what-not.



Landscaping can be pretty good money...

And here we racists thought maybe it was cause they're getting paid tax free cash, benifits subsidized by the US taxpayer, living 10 to a house and buying the trucks on credit with a stolen identity.

He'll why didn't we think of that!

Bos Mutus
08-19-2015, 10:31 PM
And here we racists thought maybe it was cause they're getting paid tax free cash, benifits subsidized by the US taxpayer, living 10 to a house and buying the trucks on credit with a stolen identity.

Yeah Maybe some of that.

Sounds like a system ripe for some reform, huh?

What is with...it's either "Deport 12-30 million people immediately" or "You support the total status quo"...

...there is no sense of degrees and shades in between with you guys.

Whatever dude...if you think Trump or anybody else even can or would deport all illegal immigrants, you are the DREAMer.

It's like bouncing off the wall with you guys...every point is taken to it's absurd universe....I'm out. You guys can rail on about how they all need to go for the rest of the week if you want.

Rainmaker
08-19-2015, 10:41 PM
Yeah Maybe some of that.

Sounds like a system ripe for some reform, huh?

What is with...it's either "Deport 12-30 million people immediately" or "You support the total status quo"...

...there is no sense of degrees and shades in between with you guys.

Because we granted amnesty before and it made it worse.

We've had 26 years of Bush's Clinton and Obama and nobody trusts the current crop of beltway crooks to solve it now.

Bos Mutus
08-19-2015, 10:45 PM
Because we granted amnesty before and it made it worse.

We've had 26 years of Bush's Clinton and Obama and nobody trusts the current crop of beltway crooks to solve it now.

Jim Webb 2016

Rainmaker
08-19-2015, 10:50 PM
Jim Webb 2016

AIPAC hates him. So I'd have to consider it.

garhkal
08-20-2015, 05:21 AM
However, the wife likes cats. Even though she is allergic to cats. Angie is the reason that I saved the cat.


I've always had to laugh when i hear stories like that. Where someone's alergic to cats (or dogs), but they just "SO love them" they still have to have them near..


They will benefit out economy by doing what t most of the rest of the people raised in the US do getting jobs and working. Their ability to get Federal assistance under the current rules is almost non-existent.

Mike. While the Kids (by current incorrect understanding of the law) are citizens, and thus get federal aid, that STILL goes to the parent(s) who are here illegally. ergo they DO get federal aid.



Here we go again... Another episode of Lifestyles of the Rich and Racist...

This week's episode we take you on a tour of the Palatial estate of Rainmaker, get a peek inside the bunker of paranoia and view his collection of rusty hand-me-down pistols...

While i had to chuckle at this, why is racist to dislike Illegal immigrants?


Because any Republican that whispers they might consider "Immigration Reform"...is immediately branded a Rino and laughed out of the primaries, regardless of how practical and effective their ideas might be.

Just those who support Amnesty.
And Imo our Immigration system is NOT broken. Its just not properly enforced.


I don't know if I'd call it a "human rights" issue...no, I wouldn't. It's a less than ideal way of dealing with a problem. Deporting all illegal aliens is an impractical "solution" that is likely to cause more problems than it solves...like or not, our economy actually depends on illegals, at the moment.

I keep hearing people say that. That its Impractical. HOW is it impractical?


It's because they work here and contribute to the economy...but yes, I would guess that many undocumented workers are exploited with slave wages under the table...many also work regular jobs, pay taxes and are integral parts of the community.

BUT how are they working properly? By using false IDs or stolen IDs..


Yeah Maybe some of that.

Sounds like a system ripe for some reform, huh?

What is with...it's either "Deport 12-30 million people immediately" or "You support the total status quo"...

...there is no sense of degrees and shades in between with you guys.

Maybe that's cause to many of us Conservatives, we DON'T see or hear any 'gray area' inbetween the 2 answers. Its either "We gotta deport them all", or "We gotta do amnesty. Its the human right thing to do"..

Bos Mutus
08-20-2015, 05:34 AM
Just those who support Amnesty.
And Imo our Immigration system is NOT broken. Its just not properly enforced.


So, the borders are fine as is?


I keep hearing people say that. That its Impractical. HOW is it impractical?

Like I said...you're talking somewhere around 12-20 MILLION people...with 12 to 20 million circumstances.

It's easy to flippantly say "just sent them home"...but in practice, it's just not that easy.


BUT how are they working properly? By using false IDs or stolen IDs..

Various ways...generally not stolen IDs, I don't think...that doesn't last long, people that steal IDs get a quick score..maybe a few month at most...but not long term. I reckon some take on IDs from deceased, or completely made up IDs that the manage to get quasi-legitimized...

The irony of some of this is some of these people pay into Social Security for years and will never collect on it.


Maybe that's cause to many of us Conservatives, we DON'T see or hear any 'gray area' inbetween the 2 answers. Its either "We gotta deport them all", or "We gotta do amnesty. Its the human right thing to do"..

There are plenty of in between...baby steps...intermediate steps...they are out there.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-20-2015, 09:38 AM
garhkal

What would deporting 14 million people look like in your eyes?

What kind of time table would you do it in?

If you did it in a year, that would be 1.16 million a month.

Would they get hearings? Would they be escorted to the airport and made to by their own tickets home?

How many more ICE agents would you hire?

Even if you declared that they have to voluntarily self deport, how would you verify it.

Are you thinking 1.16 million people per month could be rounded up by a few guys in pickup trucks?

No, it sounds to me like you haven't even thought about this at all.

garhkal
08-20-2015, 04:18 PM
So, the borders are fine as is?

No they are not.



Like I said...you're talking somewhere around 12-20 MILLION people...with 12 to 20 million circumstances.

It's easy to flippantly say "just sent them home"...but in practice, it's just not that easy.


But why is it not that easy? What is making it hard, other than so many political hacks lack the fortitude to do so?


Various ways...generally not stolen IDs, I don't think...that doesn't last long, people that steal IDs get a quick score..maybe a few month at most...but not long term. I reckon some take on IDs from deceased, or completely made up IDs that the manage to get quasi-legitimized...


But isn't using a made up ID a federal crime, and thus smacks in the face of they are hard working law abiding people?


The irony of some of this is some of these people pay into Social Security for years and will never collect on it.


That i will agree with. It is kind of ironic. But then there are plenty in the US who feel they won't be able to collect on it, when THEY hit 65..



There are plenty of in between...baby steps...intermediate steps...they are out there.

Like what? I have heard several people like you say this, but not offer up what those "baby steps are".


garhkal

What would deporting 14 million people look like in your eyes?

What kind of time table would you do it in?

I'd say over a 4 yr span should make it a little easier to hit.

Bos Mutus
08-20-2015, 04:53 PM
No they are not.

But why is it not that easy? What is making it hard, other than so many political hacks lack the fortitude to do so?

It's not a question of not having the fortitude to do so...many don't believe it's the right thing to do.

So, we have to look at political realities...same with gun control...if there were no guns at all, we'd all be safer...but getting rid of all guns is not only not practical, many people do not want to...so we have accept that reality at some point.


But isn't using a made up ID a federal crime, and thus smacks in the face of they are hard working law abiding people?

I don't know if it's a federal crime or not. But, I will say there is no question that to be here and survive here illegally, one must work around and against the law.


That i will agree with. It is kind of ironic. But then there are plenty in the US who feel they won't be able to collect on it, when THEY hit 65..

Yeah...people will always buy into the fear some politician is selling.


Like what? I have heard several people like you say this, but not offer up what those "baby steps are".

Improved border is one
The Dream Act is another
A functional work-visa program


I think the first step is to slow the input of NEW illegal aliens..
.
The next step is to figure out what to do with the ones that are here...the ones in prison, I'm fine with offering them back to the home country...will the home country take them and incarcerate them? What if they won't? Will we just send them back and release them if they've committed rapes and murders here?

Kids that were brought here as toddlers...speak only English, know only the U.S....went to school here, got good grades...accepted to college...should those kids be sent back? I don't think so....you do.

Their Grandma that's lived here for 40 years...has a job, a house, goes to the Church...should she be sent back? I don't think so...you do.

So, I would say, I'd support Amnesty for some...depending on circumstances. Others could maybe be converted directly, in-place, to work visas.

So, in between the Grandma, the kid....and the prisoner, there are 12 million other cases with unique circumstances that need to be sorted out.

Are you fine with putting a lot of American farmers out of business by removing their workforce overnight? I'm not saying it's "Right" to hire illegals to work the fields, but it's reality...and when you remove it, it causes problems.

Are you okay with some communities losing 70% of their population overnight? I understand the black and white right/wrong to hell with consequences idealism...but, it will cause more problems than it solves.

Bos Mutus
08-20-2015, 05:16 PM
Something to think about...


The Law Of Unintended Consequences: Georgia's Immigration Law Backfires

By Benjamin Powell
To forgo a repeat of last year, when labor shortages triggered an estimated $140 million in agricultural losses, as crops rotted in the fields, officials in Georgia are now dispatching prisoners to the state’s farms to help harvest fruit and vegetables.
The labor shortages, which also have affected the hotel and restaurant industries, are a consequence of Georgia’s immigration enforcement law, HB 87, which was passed last year. As State Rep. Matt Ramsey, one of the bill’s authors, said at the time, “Our goal is … to eliminate incentives for illegal aliens to cross into our state.”
Now he and others are learning: Be careful what you wish for, because you may get more than you bargained for.
Georgia’s law, similar to those in Alabama, Arizona and a few other states, gives police the authority to demand immigration documentation from suspects when they detain them for other possible violations. The law also makes it more difficult for businesses to hire workers and creates harsher punishments for those who employ or harbor illegal immigrants.

The Pew Hispanic Center estimated that some 425,000 illegal immigrants lived in Georgia when the legislation was passed – seventh highest in the nation. Those numbers are now down, as hoped for, but the state’s economy is paying a heavy price.
The dirty secret that everybody knew was that most of the state’s agricultural workers were immigrants, many of them illegal. Some lived in the state; others migrated with the harvest from southern Florida up to New York (http://www.forbes.com/places/ny/new-york/) and back. Some of the former have moved away, while many of the latter are bypassing Georgia. Without them, according to a University of Georgia (http://www.forbes.com/colleges/university-of-georgia/) study, farmers were about 40 percent short of the number of workers they needed to harvest last year’s crop.

Despite high unemployment in the state, most Georgians don’t want such back-breaking jobs, nor do they have the necessary skills. According to Dick Minor, president of the Georgia Fruit and Vegetable Grower’s Association, immigrants “are pretty much professional harvesters” with many specializing in particular crops.
Workers are paid by volume, with skilled workers typically earning $15 to $20 an hour. Unskilled workers earn much less, which is why most locals don’t want the jobs.
Georgia’s experience is consistent with economic research on immigration. Although many Americans believe immigrants “steal” our jobs and push down our wages, economists find little evidence of that.
Since 1950 the U.S. labor force has roughly doubled in size, but there has been no long-run increase in unemployment. Most economic studies also find little evidence that increased immigration depresses the wages of U.S. workers. At worst, it might push down the wages of high school dropouts, but even there the effect is small.

Simple supply and demand analysis would seem to indicate if you increase the supply of labor, wages will decline. But immigrants don’t simply increase the supply of labor. They supply skills that most Americans don’t have. As such, they don’t replace American workers so much as free them up to do other, typically more-skilled, things. This symbiotic relationship benefits immigrants and native-born alike.
Georgia’s immigration law has had precisely the effect the economic studies could have predicted. Farmers are having a hard time finding workers with the right skills to harvest their crops. As a result, Minor says, “A lot of the smaller growers have elected not to plant as many crops or to plant any crops.” These reductions cascade through the state economy and everybody loses.
Georgia’s immigration law wasn’t motivated solely by economic concerns, of course. Many Georgians also had concerns about the high cost of providing public services to illegal residents: schooling, medical care, law enforcement and other publicly funded services.
But there are better ways to handle such problems than by chasing away needed workers.
Georgia’s immigration law is a blunt instrument that is doing unnecessary harm to immigrants and native Georgians alike, making everyone poorer. Both Georgia, and any other state that’s considering a similar law, should reconsider.

From: http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/05/17/the-law-of-unintended-consequences-georgias-immigration-law-backfires/

Bos Mutus
08-20-2015, 05:22 PM
An update...Paraphrase: GA, AL stabilize...because they stopped enforcing the new strict laws...because that shit sucked last year.



2 Years After Immigration Laws, Ga., Ala., Stable
VIDALIA, Ga. — Two years after Georgia and Alabama passed laws designed to drive away people living in the country illegally, the states' agricultural areas are still heavily populated with foreign workers, many of whom don't have legal authorization to be here.
There are still concerns over enforcement and lingering fears among immigrants, but in many ways it appears that people have gone on with life much as it was before the laws were enacted.
Farmers say many of the foreign workers have returned because the laws are not heavily enforced and it once again seems safe to be here.
But the story is more complicated than that: Some are still staying away or have gone underground, according to community activists, and some farmers say they are filling labor shortages not with returning immigrants but with workers hired through a program that grants temporary legal visas.
Meanwhile, employers and workers in both states are watching as Congress wrestles over plans that aim to simultaneously prevent future illegal immigration and offer a chance at citizenship for millions now living in the country illegally.
Georgia and Alabama were two of five states to pass tough crackdowns on illegal immigration in 2011, a year after Arizona made headlines for a hard-line immigration enforcement law that ended up being challenged in the U.S. Supreme Court.
Immediately after the laws were passed, farmers in both states complained that foreign workers who lived there had left and that the itinerant migrants who generally came through were staying away. American workers weren't stepping forward to perform the back-breaking work immigrants had done for years, and crops were rotting in the fields because of a lack of laborers, they said.
An informal survey conducted in Georgia showed that farmers of onions, watermelons and other hand-picked crops lacked more than 11,000 workers during their spring and summer harvests of 2011, Georgia Department of Agriculture Commissioner Gary Black told a U.S. Senate subcommittee hearing on immigration enforcement and farm labor.
But then as courts began blocking significant elements of the law and some loopholes became apparent, some of the workers who had fled for fear of arrest and deportation returned. Others were drawn back by their longstanding ties to the communities.
Victor Valentin, 25, and his wife, Maria Gonzales, 23, came to the Vidalia onion growing region in south Georgia five years ago and found work quickly. But when the state passed its law cracking down on illegal immigration, they feared they would be caught and deported, and left for neighboring North Carolina.
They didn't last long. With two young children and no support network there, life was difficult. At the same time, the situation in Georgia seemed to have calmed down.
"We still talked to people here, and we heard there weren't really any problems, that things hadn't really changed," Valentin said, explaining that the family decided to return to the Vidalia area after about nine months. He's found work harvesting pine straw since his return.
This year, Black and a number of industry leaders in Georgia told The Associated Press they haven't heard of any labor shortages.
The situation in Alabama is similar.
"No one seems to be having any problems," said Alabama's agriculture commissioner, John McMillan, who added that he has spoken with farmers who saw migrants return once it became clear the law passed in Alabama was, in practice, mostly toothless. Courts blocked most of the law's toughest sections, including one that required public schools to check students' citizenship status, and the massive arrests envisioned by some simply didn't happen.
Also, according to government statistics, thousands of employers in Alabama have been ignoring a provision in the state's immigration law that requires them to register with the federal E-Verify system, a program to electronically verify workers' legal status.
And yet, at least in Georgia, the story is a bit more complicated than it may seem on the surface.
Some migrant families – both legally and illegally in the country – are indeed still avoiding Georgia because they fear discrimination and profiling, said Andrea Hinojosa, a community organizer who has worked with Latino workers in the Vidalia area for more than 20 years.
Other laborers who had worked their way up from the fields into more stable factory or construction work have turned to less stable jobs because businesses are starting to use E-Verify, a key provision of the Georgia law, Hinojosa said.
"I think it has probably put people back into hiding, put them back in the shadows," Hinojosa said. "It doesn't mean they're not working. It could mean that they have just found a job where they can't be detected."
Maria Barbosa, a legal permanent resident from Mexico, opened Los Olivos, a store that caters to the Vidalia area's Latino population, in July 2008. She estimates that her profits at the store, which stocks international phone cards, traditional foods and party supplies, dropped by about 30 percent after Georgia's law passed. It has rebounded somewhat in the past two years, but it's still not as strong as it was, she said.
One reason labor shortages in the fields have subsided – in addition to the return of migrant workers who had fled – is that some of the biggest farms in the area have started using or increased their use of a federal guest-worker program to bring in foreign workers legally.
Farmer R.T. Stanley of Stanley Farms, which grows more than 1,000 acres of onions, as well as other crops and vegetables in the area, is one of them.
Stanley said he has started to use more legal guest workers, who are brought into the country on a visa for a defined period of time, because he is not able to find as many experienced migrant workers locally as he used to.
For Barbosa, that can hurt business, because guest workers aren't nearly as reliable as customers as those who settle in and develop attachments to a community.
"They'll come in and buy some beans and tortillas and then send $1,000 to Guatemala," she said of the guest workers.
Many farmers have long complained the federal guest-worker program is too rigid and difficult to use.
"We know we've got to deal with the rules, and we do," said Bob Stafford, director of the Vidalia Onion Business Council. "We do the best we can with them."
Now farmers and workers both are turning their attention to the debate over national immigration reform and are hoping for provisions that will help them.
"We need a real good guest-worker program," Stafford said, "something that will work ... for the growers and for the workers and for the community."
Barbosa, whose husband works as a crew leader recruiting and overseeing field workers for farmers, is also watching Washington.
"People have hope," she said. "But there's been a lot of talk about immigration reform before and nothing has happened, so there's still a lot of doubt."

Rainmaker
08-20-2015, 05:47 PM
An update...Paraphrase: GA, AL stabilize...because they stopped enforcing the new strict laws...because that shit sucked last year.

Don't worry, Bos, This is all just rhetoric and the big money really doesn't want to fix it, so this time 20 years from now you'll probably still have your indentured servants, with no rights, to pick your tomaccos for you...

The only difference is they'll just be Somalis instead of Guatemalans, like they are now.

Bos Mutus
08-20-2015, 05:51 PM
Don't worry, Bos, This is all just rhetoric and the big money really doesn't want to fix it, so this time 20 years from now you'll probably still have your indentured servants to pick your tomaccos for you, They'll just be Somalis instead of Guatemalans like they are now.

Whew...that's a relief.

Rainmaker
08-20-2015, 05:56 PM
Thanks for posting More objective research funded by the Big-Agribusiness lobby's "Pew Hispanic studies" outfit.

We can never get enough of them telling us how We're all just going to starve to death, if we have to actually start paying legal residents a living wage to get them to pick crops....

Bos Mutus
08-20-2015, 06:00 PM
Thanks for posting More objective research funded by the Big-Ag lobby's "Pew Hispanic studies" outfit.

We can never get enough of them telling us how We're all just going to starve to death if we have to actually start paying legal people a living wage to get them to pick crops....

You're welcome.

And thank you for your keen analysis...we can also never have enough unsubstantiated bumper sticker thoughtfulness.

Rainmaker
08-20-2015, 06:01 PM
You're welcome.

And thank you for your keen analysis...we can also never have enough unsubstantiated bumper sticker thoughtfulness.

No problem. it's what we do.

Rainmaker
08-20-2015, 06:20 PM
Gee, the "You must be a Jew" accusations are such a hit down at the Kirby Stewart Post 24 American Legion...the crowd all shouts 'Burn!' when I do it there...

What a joke.
Bos Mutus

You know Bos, I've been thinking that you might be interested in this article (that ran recently in the local Mullet wrapper) marking the 70th anniversary of the end of WW2.

It's featuring a couple of the veterans of Iwo Jima (Mr. Wilcher and Mr Baker) and life members of the American Legion organization here, That the self-appointed patriotic watchdogs over at the SPLC have recently featured on their "Hatewatch" website.

As a fellow farmer and Military Veteran, I'm sure you'll appreciate Mr. Baker's quote taken directly from the article......

"Ninety-two percent of the Americans who fought in World War II were just poor farm boys, They turned out to be some of the greatest people in the world. They knew how to grow their own food, repair their equipment, and provide their own entertainment. We've lost all of that," Baker said"

Read more here:

http://www.bradenton.com/2015/08/12/5937150_end-of-world-war-ii-70-years-ago.html?rh=1#storylink=cpy

Bos Mutus
08-20-2015, 06:34 PM
@Bos Mutus (http://forums.militarytimes.com/member.php?u=30622)

You know Bos, I've been thinking that you might be interested in this article (that ran recently in the local Mullet wrapper) marking the 70th anniversary of the end of WW2.

It's featuring a couple of the veterans of Iwo Jima (Mr. Wilcher and Mr Baker) and life members of the American Legion organization, That the self-appointed patriotic watchdogs over at the SPLC have recently featured on their "Hatewatch" website.

As a fellow farmer and Military Veteran, I'm sure you'll appreciate Mr. Baker's quote taken directly from the article......

"Ninety-two percent of the Americans who fought in World War II were just poor farm boys, They turned out to be some of the greatest people in the world. They knew how to grow their own food, repair their equipment, and provide their own entertainment. We've lost all of that," Baker said"

Read more here:

http://www.bradenton.com/2015/08/12/5937150_end-of-world-war-ii-70-years-ago.html?rh=1#storylink=cpy

While I'm sure his 92% figure is wildly inaccurate (many farmers were actually given deferments in WWII because they were more needed at home to grow the food...that's not to say a good many didn't go in the military, but the military was not 92% farmers)....Nevertheless, I do very much appreciate the quote.

Regardlesss of your baseless and pointless assumptions...I have a great deal of respect and admiration for farming...and you don't actually know shit about me.

garhkal
08-21-2015, 04:30 AM
It's not a question of not having the fortitude to do so...many don't believe it's the right thing to do.

So, we have to look at political realities...same with gun control...if there were no guns at all, we'd all be safer...but getting rid of all guns is not only not practical, many people do not want to...so we have accept that reality at some point.

So cause its politically hard, don't bother doing it? That sounds imo like a defeatist attitude.




I don't know if it's a federal crime or not. But, I will say there is no question that to be here and survive here illegally, one must work around and against the law.


So since you Do see it as illegal, why then do you not see that those doing so, are not good for our country?



Improved border is one
The Dream Act is another
A functional work-visa program


I can never get with the dream act. IMO that is just rewarding those who broke the law, even if it was technically them who didn't break it.
As to the work-visa program, how is what we already have NOT functional as is?


What if they won't? Will we just send them back and release them if they've committed rapes and murders here?

Ship them back anyway. Why should we be saddled with them, just cause their home country "doesn't want them back"?


Kids that were brought here as toddlers...speak only English, know only the U.S....went to school here, got good grades...accepted to college...should those kids be sent back? I don't think so....you do.

As i mentioned a few pages back. We already punish kids for the crimes of their parents, so why do these kids "get a pass"?


Their Grandma that's lived here for 40 years...has a job, a house, goes to the Church...should she be sent back? I don't think so...you do.

If she has been living here THAT long illegally then yes. And WHY in that 40+ years, has she NOT pursued avenues to try and get Legal?



Are you fine with putting a lot of American farmers out of business by removing their workforce overnight? I'm not saying it's "Right" to hire illegals to work the fields, but it's reality...and when you remove it, it causes problems.

Again that is a defeatist attitude, more akin to apathy than anything else iMO. "cause its reality don't bother trying to do the right and legal thing".



Are you okay with some communities losing 70% of their population overnight? I understand the black and white right/wrong to hell with consequences idealism...but, it will cause more problems than it solves.

Since there is no way in hell, we can deport 12+ mil overnight, heck even in 1 year (4-5 maybe), how is this going to 'deplete' communities by 70% overnight? Imo that is a strawman argument.

Bos on that Pew link.. Perhaps if they started telling those on welfare, "Since you are passing on taking the jobs available, you are cut off", they might actually GET people to fill those spots.

Bos Mutus
08-21-2015, 02:57 PM
So cause its politically hard, don't bother doing it? That sounds imo like a defeatist attitude.

So since you Do see it as illegal, why then do you not see that those doing so, are not good for our country?

I can never get with the dream act. IMO that is just rewarding those who broke the law, even if it was technically them who didn't break it.
As to the work-visa program, how is what we already have NOT functional as is?

Ship them back anyway. Why should we be saddled with them, just cause their home country "doesn't want them back"?


so, let me get this right...we have two illegal aliens in California that raped and killed an American woman. They are in custody in our jail awaiting trial...or let's say they get convicted.

We call up El Salvador and say "Hey...we'll send you these guys if you'll put them in prison."

They say, "No, we don't want them."

So...you would rather we fly them back and just let them go on the streets of San Salvador and not have to do any time for their crime?

Do you think that might tell a bunch of illegals..."Hey, do whatever crime you want while here, the worst that will happen is you get released to your home country."


As i mentioned a few pages back. We already punish kids for the crimes of their parents, so why do these kids "get a pass"?

If she has been living here THAT long illegally then yes. And WHY in that 40+ years, has she NOT pursued avenues to try and get Legal?

Again that is a defeatist attitude, more akin to apathy than anything else iMO. "cause its reality don't bother trying to do the right and legal thing".

Since there is no way in hell, we can deport 12+ mil overnight, heck even in 1 year (4-5 maybe), how is this going to 'deplete' communities by 70% overnight? Imo that is a strawman argument.

Well, at least you've started to realize the possible difficulty of your deport them all plan. Stretching it out over 4-5 years doesn't really make it much better.


Bos on that Pew link.. Perhaps if they started telling those on welfare, "Since you are passing on taking the jobs available, you are cut off", they might actually GET people to fill those spots.

Good luck.

garhkal
08-21-2015, 06:06 PM
Do you think that might tell a bunch of illegals..."Hey, do whatever crime you want while here, the worst that will happen is you get released to your home country."

No, we deport them, once their jail time is DONE..




Well, at least you've started to realize the possible difficulty of your deport them all plan. Stretching it out over 4-5 years doesn't really make it much better.

It's better than doing nothing, or just giving all those here Amnesty. Look at what that did to attract MORE after Reagan did it back in the 80s.



Good luck.


When i lived in the UK, that is how they handled people on the Dole for a while. If you couldn't give a good reason for why you passed up on taking a job when you had the chance, you got cut off.

Bos Mutus
08-21-2015, 06:19 PM
No, we deport them, once their jail time is DONE..

Ok, I'm good with that. What do we do with them now?


It's better than doing nothing, or just giving all those here Amnesty. Look at what that did to attract MORE after Reagan did it back in the 80s.

Again...the choices are not limited to "Do nothing" "Deport them all"...just because your idea is better than doing nothing doesn't make it the best idea.

Unfortunately, you seem to prefer "Doing nothing" if you can't have full deportation of all illegals...that seems to be the same way a lot of politicians thinks, which is why nothing is getting done.


When i lived in the UK, that is how they handled people on the Dole for a while. If you couldn't give a good reason for why you passed up on taking a job when you had the chance, you got cut off.

Yeah, I 'm actually good with this one too

garhkal
08-21-2015, 10:35 PM
Ok, I'm good with that. What do we do with them now?


Keep them in jail, like we do with US citizens who break the law..



Again...the choices are not limited to "Do nothing" "Deport them all"...just because your idea is better than doing nothing doesn't make it the best idea.

Unfortunately, you seem to prefer "Doing nothing" if you can't have full deportation of all illegals...that seems to be the same way a lot of politicians thinks, which is why nothing is getting done.

Actually i would rather SOMETHING get done, just not giving any of these illegals amnesty. IMO all that says is "Sure come in break our laws.. we will give you a pardon eventually, after enough people whine and complain"..




Yeah, I 'm actually good with this one too

Glad we see eye to eye on that...

As a side question. Over on another site i visit that allows politicial discussions, someone made an interesting analogy to the immigration issue.
Since it seems cause we haven't enforced the laws, getting us to where we are, some say DON'T enforce them as it would eb too hard/costly etc.
He then asked, would those same people that feel 'not enforcing them is right as it would be wrong/bad/too costly etc, feel the same way if someone proposed that since even with the enforcement of laws against rape/sexual assaults, that it still happens. Why don't we just stop enforcing them.. (Or something to that effect.. My linquistical skills don't match his i am sorry to say, and the site is currently down for 'maintenance when i tried getting to it to cut n paste his statement".)

Bos Mutus
08-21-2015, 10:47 PM
Keep them in jail, like we do with US citizens who break the law..

No...I mean what do with do with now when their jail time is finished?


Actually i would rather SOMETHING get done, just not giving any of these illegals amnesty. IMO all that says is "Sure come in break our laws.. we will give you a pardon eventually, after enough people whine and complain"..

Glad we see eye to eye on that...

As a side question. Over on another site i visit that allows politicial discussions, someone made an interesting analogy to the immigration issue.
Since it seems cause we haven't enforced the laws, getting us to where we are, some say DON'T enforce them as it would eb too hard/costly etc.
He then asked, would those same people that feel 'not enforcing them is right as it would be wrong/bad/too costly etc, feel the same way if someone proposed that since even with the enforcement of laws against rape/sexual assaults, that it still happens.

Well, you would have to ask someone who feels we should stop enforcing immigration laws...but, I'm pretty sure their answer would be no, they don't feel the same about stopping enforcement of laws against rape.

Yes, I'm sure that would be the answer.

Let's say....oh, you seem to be in favor of not enforcing anti-gay discrimination laws, maybe...does that mean you are also not in favor of enforcing murder laws? Of course, not. It's silly.


Why don't we just stop enforcing them.. (Or something to that effect.. My linquistical skills don't match his i am sorry to say, and the site is currently down for 'maintenance when i tried getting to it to cut n paste his statement".)

I get the concept...and unless he can say he 100% supports enforcement of every law on the books...it's a silly point.

garhkal
08-22-2015, 09:42 AM
No...I mean what do with do with now when their jail time is finished?

Kick them back home. And if their home government says "we ain't taking them leave them on the tarmac!



I get the concept...and unless he can say he 100% supports enforcement of every law on the books...it's a silly point.

Then what's the point of having the law if its not going to get enforced?

Absinthe Anecdote
08-22-2015, 12:40 PM
Kick them back home. And if their home government says "we ain't taking them leave them on the tarmac!


That's silly.

Not that the legal equivalent of that couldn't be done, but to think in terms of our government operating like a cranky old man is absurd.

After reading Rainmaker's and your views on immigration, I have to say that both of you are too emotional about it.

All this talk about booting 14 million people out and dumping people on the tarmac is rather childish.

No matter how much a guy like Trump, huffs and puffs, you aren't going to see mass deportations.

TJMAC77SP
08-22-2015, 02:48 PM
That's silly.

Not that the legal equivalent of that couldn't be done, but to think in terms of our government operating like a cranky old man is absurd.

After reading Rainmaker's and your views on immigration, I have to say that both of you are too emotional about it.

All this talk about booting 14 million people out and dumping people on the tarmac is rather childish.

No matter how much a guy like Trump, huffs and puffs, you aren't going to see mass deportations.

Deporting the current illegal aliens en masse is a non starter and Trump (and anyone who parrots the goal) knows this. It is pure political theater, playing to the emotions and hate of voters.


Historically it tends to work

Deja Vu.........."they will end Medicare as you know it".

Absinthe Anecdote
08-22-2015, 06:54 PM
Nativism is the political position of demanding a favored status for certain established inhabitants of a nation as compared to claims of newcomers or immigrants.[1] Nativism typically means opposition to immigration, and support of efforts to lower the political or legal status of specific ethnic or cultural groups who are considered hostile or alien to the natural culture, upon the assumption that they cannot be assimilated.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nativism_(politics)

I agree TJ, it is stoking fear that is for the most part irrational.

In 1850s NYC the same drama played out against the Irish. There was a Native political party, "native" street gangs that opposed immigration, and tons of hate speech and fear.

All that doom and gloom talk about the Irish invasion, and how they spoke a foreign tongue (about half the Irish still spoke Gaelic) and refused to assimilate didn't play out.

You immigration hardliners are being xenophic and even racist, whether you realize it or not.

Our immigration policy does need to be fixed, but deporting the current illegals won't happen.

It is too late to do that, and you need to face that fact.

Don't fall for Trump's bullshit promises. He will never deliver on them.

Rainmaker
08-23-2015, 02:56 AM
You immigration hardliners are being xenophic and even racist, whether you realize it or not.

You're still mired in your own version of Political Correctness.

Just because an American citizen doesn't like a bunch of illegals mooching off our goodwill and tax dollars doesn't make him a racist.

It has nothing to do with Racism, It has to do with teaching the rest of the world that US laws can't be ignored.






After reading Rainmaker's and your views on immigration, I have to say that both of you are too emotional about it.

All this talk about booting 14 million people out and dumping people on the tarmac is rather childish.

No matter how much a guy like Trump, huffs and puffs, you aren't going to see mass deportations.

Rainmaker just loves listening to you constantly whining, because the Teflon Don's still kicking PNAC-RINO ass!

Like I told you before, attacking a winner is a losing strategy.

He ain't going away. So deal with it.....

DEEZ NUTS 2016!!!

garhkal
08-23-2015, 03:30 AM
That's silly.

Not that the legal equivalent of that couldn't be done, but to think in terms of our government operating like a cranky old man is absurd.

After reading Rainmaker's and your views on immigration, I have to say that both of you are too emotional about it.

All this talk about booting 14 million people out and dumping people on the tarmac is rather childish.

No matter how much a guy like Trump, huffs and puffs, you aren't going to see mass deportations.

So what.. we just keep them. Feeding, clothing, medicating them til they leave or die?


Our immigration policy does need to be fixed, but deporting the current illegals won't happen.

That sounds like you are saying "they are here, too bad, so sad. Deal with it.
I am sorry but what's the point then in even HAVING immigration laws, Border enforcement, ICE etc, if we are just going to not do a damn thing??

Absinthe Anecdote
08-23-2015, 11:20 AM
Just because an American citizen doesn't like a bunch of illegals mooching off our goodwill and tax dollars doesn't make him a racist.

It doesn't sound like you have an over abundance of goodwill, but go dig up some stats on illegals receiving federal aid.


So what.. we just keep them. Feeding, clothing, medicating them til they leave or die?


That sounds like you are saying "they are here, too bad, so sad. Deal with it.
I am sorry but what's the point then in even HAVING immigration laws, Border enforcement, ICE etc, if we are just going to not do a damn thing??

They are here and mass deportation is not going to happen, so yes, you are going to have to deal with them.

There needs to be reform, and it is the hardliners like you who are the ones blocking that reform.

How exactly are we feeding and clothing illegal? Please explain.

There is a problem with people not paying their emergency room bills, but that happens with legal citizens too.

I'm not for turning away a injured person from a hospital, are you?

Absinthe Anecdote
08-23-2015, 03:44 PM
garhkal Rainmaker




http://money.cnn.com/2014/11/20/news/economy/immigration-myths/

Myth #3: They drain the system

Undocumented immigrants do not qualify for welfare, food stamps, Medicaid, and most other public benefits. Most of these programs require proof of legal immigration status and under the 1996 welfare law, even legal immigrants cannot receive these benefits until they have been in the United States for more than five years.

Non-citizen immigrant adults and children are about 25% less likely to be signed up for Medicaid than their poor native-born equivalents and are also 37% less likely to receive food stamps, according to a 2013 study by the Cato Institute.

Citizen children of illegal immigrants -- often derogatorily referred to as "anchor babies" -- do qualify for social benefits. Also, undocumented immigrants are eligible for schooling and emergency medical care. Currently, the average unlawful immigrant household costs taxpayers $14,387 per household, according to a recent report by The Heritage Foundation. But in its 2013 "Immigration Myths and Facts" report, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce says most economists see providing these benefits as an investment for the future, when these children become workers and taxpayers.

A CBO report on the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act of 2007 concluded that a path to legalization for immigrants would increase federal revenues by $48 billion. Such a plan would see $23 billion in increased costs from the use of public services, but ultimately, it would produce a surplus of $25 billion for government coffers, CBO said.

TJMAC77SP
08-23-2015, 04:34 PM
@garhkal (http://forums.militarytimes.com/member.php?u=8558) @Rainmaker (http://forums.militarytimes.com/member.php?u=13985)

While I agree that the stated expanse of the 'drain' is exaggerated there is still a drain. The US Chamber of Commerce may call the drain (14K per household) an investment but it is still a drain nonetheless.

While it's true that illegal immigrants cannot receive Medicaid they can and do receive benefits from the program (Emergency Medicaid Expenditures) to the tune of $2 Billion dollars. Mostly through ER visits. Studies have found that 99% of those who received these benefits were undocumented (illegal immigrants).

There is a drain.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-23-2015, 04:58 PM
While I agree that the stated expanse of the 'drain' is exaggerated there is still a drain. The US Chamber of Commerce may call the drain (14K per household) an investment but it is still a drain nonetheless.

While it's true that illegal immigrants cannot receive Medicaid they can and do receive benefits from the program (Emergency Medicaid Expenditures) to the tune of $2 Billion dollars. Mostly through ER visits. Studies have found that 99% of those who received these benefits were undocumented (illegal immigrants).

There is a drain.

According to our current law, those anchor babies are U.S. Citizens, so it is an investment. An investment in legal U.S. Citizens.

As far as skipping out on ER bills, how many U.S. Citizens do that?

Is that more of an immigration issue or a healthcare issue?

TJMAC77SP
08-23-2015, 07:16 PM
According to our current law, those anchor babies are U.S. Citizens, so it is an investment. An investment in legal U.S. Citizens.

As far as skipping out on ER bills, how many U.S. Citizens do that?

Is that more of an immigration issue or a healthcare issue?

You're right about the 14K. I misread or more accurately didn't pay attention to the details. I would like to know why they characterize the amount as per household and not per person (anchor baby)


I don't know how many people skip out on ER bills. Do you? You are doing what the 'leave illegals alone' crowd is doing.....deflecting from facts.

From the JAMA.
"Results A total of 48 391 individuals received services reimbursed under Emergency Medicaid during the 4-year period of this study. The patient population was 99% undocumented, 93% Hispanic, 95% female, and 89% in the 18- to 40-year age group. Total spending increased by 28% from 2001 through 2004, with more rapid spending increases among elderly (98%) and disabled (82%) patients. In 2004, childbirth and complications of pregnancy accounted for 82% of spending and 91% of hospitalizations. Injury, renal failure, gastrointestinal disease, and cardiovascular conditions were also prevalent."

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=206014&resultClick=3

I will repeat myself.......we can discuss how big a drain but not IF there is a drain. There is

Absinthe Anecdote
08-23-2015, 09:11 PM
You're right about the 14K. I misread or more accurately didn't pay attention to the details. I would like to know why they characterize the amount as per household and not per person (anchor baby)

Because if you give assistance to that U.S. Citizen anchor baby for food, are you really going to stipulate that no other person in the household can eat any of it?

I guess in the world of garhkal logic you might be tempted to send a social worker out to the house to keep tabs on the refrigerator, but come on TJ.



I don't know how many people skip out on ER bills. Do you? You are doing what the 'leave illegals alone' crowd is doing.....deflecting from facts.

From the JAMA.
"Results A total of 48 391 individuals received services reimbursed under Emergency Medicaid during the 4-year period of this study. The patient population was 99% undocumented, 93% Hispanic, 95% female, and 89% in the 18- to 40-year age group. Total spending increased by 28% from 2001 through 2004, with more rapid spending increases among elderly (98%) and disabled (82%) patients. In 2004, childbirth and complications of pregnancy accounted for 82% of spending and 91% of hospitalizations. Injury, renal failure, gastrointestinal disease, and cardiovascular conditions were also prevalent."

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=206014&resultClick=3

I will repeat myself.......we can discuss how big a drain but not IF there is a drain. There is

I don't really see why you are arguing this one either.

Let's say you are a male nurse, like Gaylord Fokker, in a hospital. A pregnant lady shows up in obvious need of medical attention.

Are you really going to care where she came from? No, you are going to go get her a doctor.

Either way, you already stated that the illegals are here, and you acknowledge that mass deportations are absurd.

It is time to reform the system with what will work and stop pandering to the xenophobs who are calling them parasites.

I'm not saying you are doing that, Gaylord. Because I know that you are a compassionate human being.

You understand that our illegal population from Central and South America are basically refugees from poverty.

Right or wrong, they got over the border and they are here. You aren't going to scream parasite at them, are you Gaylord?

No, you are not.

You are also not going to round them up and fly them back to their country of origin and "dump them on the tarmac" as suggested earlier in the thread.

Why? Because Gaylord Mac is a reasonable and compassionate man.

You are going to realize that an entire spectrum of reform is needed to address this problem that developed over the course of 50 years.

You'll probably start by tightening border security, but you'll realize that will never be enough.

You have to do something about the people who are already here.

You'll also come up with a path to citizenship for some, work visas for others, and a system of penalties and fines.

You might deport a few criminals too, but you'll make sure what ever system you come up with is reasonable.

You acknowledge that this is a big mess, but you'd much rather pull these illegals out of the shadows and give them a chance to assimilate and become legal.

If that means making some citizens and giving others visas, so be it. It is a mess that you are going to clean up in the most compassionate way you can.

Why?

Because Gaylord Mac is a reasonable man.

TJMAC77SP
08-23-2015, 09:52 PM
Because if you give assistance to that U.S. Citizen anchor baby for food, are you really going to stipulate that no other person in the household can eat any of it?

I guess in the world of @garhkal (http://forums.militarytimes.com/member.php?u=8558) logic you might be tempted to send a social worker out to the house to keep tabs on the refrigerator, but come on TJ.



I don't really see why you are arguing this one either.

Let's say you are a male nurse, like Gaylord Fokker, in a hospital. A pregnant lady shows up in obvious need of medical attention.

Are you really going to care where she came from? No, you are going to go get her a doctor.

Either way, you already stated that the illegals are here, and you acknowledge that mass deportations are absurd.

It is time to reform the system with what will work and stop pandering to the xenophobs who are calling them parasites.

I'm not saying you are doing that, Gaylord. Because I know that you are a compassionate human being.

You understand that our illegal population from Central and South America are basically refugees from poverty.

Right or wrong, they got over the border and they are here. You aren't going to scream parasite at them, are you Gaylord?

No, you are not.

You are also not going to round them up and fly them back to their country of origin and "dump them on the tarmac" as suggested earlier in the thread.

Why? Because Gaylord Mac is a reasonable and compassionate man.

You are going to realize that an entire spectrum of reform is needed to address this problem that developed over the course of 50 years.

You'll probably start by tightening border security, but you'll realize that will never be enough.

You have to do something about the people who are already here.

You'll also come up with a path to citizenship for some, work visas for others, and a system of penalties and fines.

You might deport a few criminals too, but you'll make sure what ever system you come up with is reasonable.

You acknowledge that this is a big mess, but you'd much rather pull these illegals out of the shadows and give them a chance to assimilate and become legal.

If that means making some citizens and giving others visas, so be it. It is a mess that you are going to clean up in the most compassionate way you can.

Why?

Because Gaylord Mac is a reasonable man.

All of that sounds reasonable and I have no real issue with any of it. However, it doesn't really address my point. The exaggeration of the economic burden illegal immigrants place on the US economy is of course wrong. Equally wrong is attempts to ignore the burden or to paint it as 'not really a problem'. There is an overwhelming tendency in this country to attempt to describe every hot button issue in only the terms and context which supports a particular narrative or agenda. Nothing will get solved without a complete picture and acknowledgement of all the aspects of the problem.

I do support all of the measures you spoke of for illegal immigrants and hopefully our elected officials (on both sides of the aisle) will put the heads out of their asses and realize that this is the way to go. Put aside the bullshit hate and attempts to protect voter demographics.



I have to admit the Gaylord Fokker transitioning to Gaylord Mac thing lost me. I had to Google it. I have not seen any of the movies.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-23-2015, 10:45 PM
All of that sounds reasonable and I have no real issue with any of it.

That's just dandy!


However, it doesn't really address my point.

No, No, No!

When are you going to learn to not quibble with me?

Trust me, you'll be happier if you just submit to my dominance. Valid point or not, you mustn't appear to challenge my wisdom in any way.

You don't want to bear the full brunt of my intellectual boot, so stop trying to show off.

It is a happy place under the wing of my logic, just submit.


I have to admit the Gaylord Fokker transitioning to Gaylord Mac thing lost me. I had to Google it. I have not seen any of the movies.

The first movie of the series is worth a watch. Ben Stiller and DeNiro are great in it.

TJMAC77SP
08-24-2015, 12:02 AM
That's just dandy!



No, No, No!

When are you going to learn to not quibble with me?

Trust me, you'll be happier if you just submit to my dominance. Valid point or not, you mustn't appear to challenge my wisdom in any way.

You don't want to bear the full brunt of my intellectual boot, so stop trying to show off.

It is a happy place under the wing of my logic, just submit.



The first movie of the series is worth a watch. Ben Stiller and DeNiro are great in it.

Yes, I know........the spreadsheet..........the spreadsheet.

I have never been a huge Ben Stiller fan. I do like some of his movies but not enough to make real efforts to see them. I have seen parts of the first one and remember the plot line but not the characters names. Didn't even try to see the other movies.

I did watch the Secret Life of Walter Mitty and liked that.

garhkal
08-24-2015, 03:57 AM
They are here and mass deportation is not going to happen, so yes, you are going to have to deal with them.

There needs to be reform, and it is the hardliners like you who are the ones blocking that reform.

So what reforms would YOU institute?
And as to the statement of "They are hear, deal with it".. Rapes happen.. Should we just 'deal with them too'?


How exactly are we feeding and clothing illegal? Please explain.


Welfare and other stuff they get (Courtesy of their anchor babies).


There is a problem with people not paying their emergency room bills, but that happens with legal citizens too.

True it also happens with Legal citizens. BUT imo not to the same extent. AND at least legal citizens can be gone after to force them to pay up. What exactly can we do to illegal immigrants in that fashion?


I'm not for turning away a injured person from a hospital, are you?

When it hampers aid to legal residents/citizens, yes.
The whole Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) is one of the few things i Disliked that came from the Reagan era..
Not only does it make hospitals HAVE to treat you even if you are not a US resident/legal visitor etc, but they still have to treat you if they KNOW you can't pay..
Little else (other than charity) gives you something even if knowing you can't pay it back.. IMO that is one of the big reasons illegals flood our ER rooms. They know they can't be legally turned away.


While I agree that the stated expanse of the 'drain' is exaggerated there is still a drain. The US Chamber of Commerce may call the drain (14K per household) an investment but it is still a drain nonetheless.

While it's true that illegal immigrants cannot receive Medicaid they can and do receive benefits from the program (Emergency Medicaid Expenditures) to the tune of $2 Billion dollars. Mostly through ER visits. Studies have found that 99% of those who received these benefits were undocumented (illegal immigrants).

There is a drain.

Along with though its not by federal law, there are several states that DO give out things like welfare etc to illegal immigrants. They just do so out of state budgets.


According to our current law, those anchor babies are U.S. Citizens, so it is an investment. An investment in legal U.S. Citizens.

And has been already pointed out, that 'current law' is actually a mis interpretation of the law...

Rainmaker
08-24-2015, 05:52 PM
It doesn't sound like you have an over abundance of goodwill, but go dig up some stats on illegals receiving federal aid.

They are here and mass deportation is not going to happen, so yes, you are going to have to deal with them.

There needs to be reform, and it is the hardliners like you who are the ones blocking that reform.

How exactly are we feeding and clothing illegal? Please explain.

There is a problem with people not paying their emergency room bills, but that happens with legal citizens too.

I'm not for turning away a injured person from a hospital, are you?

Whether Trump can deport them or not is debatable. But, If the only thing he does is shut that border down, I will support him on that one issue alone.

You can cite whatever Soros funded Laraza study you want. But, Illegal Aliens are a net drain on the society. Even if you discount all the freebie social benefits like subsidized housing, free medical care, EBT, and even cash payouts.

But, it's not just Federal aid. The costs passed on to the state and local governments are huge as well. We have several major school districts here in the FL going bankrupt because, of all the costs associated with trying to cater to educating these illiterates.

Add to that lost tax revenue from them taking quality employment away from American workers, who can't get hired by the employers that can't compete if they have to pay taxes, overtime, Social Security, Futa/Fica, workers comp and the other costs and regulations that you have to follow when, you hire a legal citizen.

until the government starts busting employers that knowingly hire Illegal immigrants and cut off welfare, We might as well just put a big sign up at the border that says "Please come invade this country"

Rainmaker
08-24-2015, 06:27 PM
hopefully our elected officials (on both sides of the aisle) will put the heads out of their asses and realize that this is the way to go. Put aside the bullshit hate and attempts to protect voter demographics.



What makes you think after 50 years of this immigration shit-show, that any of the mainstream candidates would suddenly start doing that now? Put down the crack pipe TJ.

In case you haven't figured It out yet, none of them give a rat's ass about OUR quality of life.

Why? Because, They're all beholden to the kickbacks they're getting from corporate assholes who fund their campaigns. That's why. And, The corporate assholes want cheap labor.

Jeb Bush Rubbio Christy and Hillary Clinton Biden Gore et. al, ain't gonna be the ones having their neighborhood turned into a barrio.

JEB Bush's quality of life isn't affected one iota by these 50 Million Migrant Refugees.

The Clinton grandkids aren't going to a public school where all the resources are strained to the breaking point because, over half of the class can't speak English.

Chris Christie doesn't have to worry about being hit and injured by an illegal Alien drunk driver with no insurance or license and not be able to work at his shitty job anymore because, his back's now all fucked up.

Marco Rubbio's identity is not getting stolen off the job application, that he had to fill out at the local Home depot, because he needed to take a part time job to pay for his skyrocketing Property taxes.

Al Gore don't have to wait in line at the ER for 6 hours, sitting next to a Mestizo Migrant Indian from Nicaragua with Tuberculosis.

Look, This situation hasn't happened by accident.

Failure to enforce immigration laws and secure the border has been a deliberate political decision.

garhkal
08-25-2015, 04:02 AM
Look, This situation hasn't happened by accident.

Failure to enforce immigration laws and secure the border has been a deliberate political decision.

And its a plague both the Dems and Reps have foisted on us.. Well IMO.

garhkal
08-25-2015, 04:05 AM
doh.. double post.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-25-2015, 12:43 PM
What makes you think after 50 years of this immigration shit-show, that any of the mainstream candidates would suddenly start doing that now? Put down the crack pipe TJ.

In case you haven't figured It out yet, none of them give a rat's ass about OUR quality of life.

Why? Because, They're all beholden to the kickbacks they're getting from corporate assholes who fund their campaigns. That's why. And, The corporate assholes want cheap labor.

Jeb Bush Rubbio Christy and Hillary Clinton Biden Gore et. al, ain't gonna be the ones having their neighborhood turned into a barrio.

JEB Bush's quality of life isn't affected one iota by these 50 Million Migrant Refugees.

The Clinton grandkids aren't going to a public school where all the resources are strained to the breaking point because, over half of the class can't speak English.

Chris Christie doesn't have to worry about being hit and injured by an illegal Alien drunk driver with no insurance or license and not be able to work at his shitty job anymore because, his back's now all fucked up.

Marco Rubbio's identity is not getting stolen off the job application, that he had to fill out at the local Home depot, because he needed to take a part time job to pay for his skyrocketing Property taxes.

Al Gore don't have to wait in line at the ER for 6 hours, sitting next to a Mestizo Migrant Indian from Nicaragua with Tuberculosis.

Look, This situation hasn't happened by accident.

Failure to enforce immigration laws and secure the border has been a deliberate political decision.

I'm sure you get plenty of howls and back slaps of approval when you get rolling on a PBR fueled rant like this down at the American Legion Hall.

But for someone who claims to "see through the bullshit" you are going to vote for Trump?

What a joke.

Rainmaker
08-25-2015, 01:53 PM
I'm sure you get plenty of howls and back slaps of approval when you get rolling on a PBR fueled rant like this down at the American Legion Hall.

But for someone who claims to "see through the bullshit" you are going to vote for Trump?

What a joke.

Maybe, There's still a long way to go. But, at this in point in time. I'd say yes. And guess what? I'm not the only one. That's what.

Trump leads both Marco Antonio Rubio and John Ellis Bush in the polls in their "home" state of Florida. Why? Well, It's because #1: they both suck and #2: Trump's raised important issues and (so far) he sticks to those issues even in the face of attacks from self-destructive progressive Anti-White Media , that start having a hissy fit every time he dares tells the truth on the real consequences of all this federal lawlessness that our representatives have been subjecting us to

Absinthe Anecdote
08-25-2015, 02:19 PM
Maybe, There's still a long way to go. But, at this in point in time. I'd say yes. And guess what? I'm not the only one. That's what.

Trump leads both Marco Antonio Rubio and John Ellis Bush in the polls in their "home" state of Florida. Why? Well, It's because #1: they both suck and #2: Trump's raised important issues and (so far) he sticks to those issues even in the face of attacks from self-destructive progressive Anti-White Media, that start having a hissy fit every time he dares tells the truth on the real consequences of all this federal lawlessness that our representatives have been subjecting us to

Trump is playing your racist ass like a violin.

Sure he has struck a chord, a racist chord with people who are afraid of the future.

The future doesn't include a place for white supremacists, so get used to it pal.

Sucks to be you, doesn't it?

Rainmaker
08-25-2015, 03:20 PM
Trump is playing your racist ass like a violin.

Sure he has struck a chord, a racist chord with people who are afraid of the future

The future doesn't include a place for white supremacists, so get used to it pal.



Your whole argument has basically devolved into a weaker sauced version of MikeKerriii, calling everyone who doesn't agree with you a scumbag bigot. It's Pathetic.

I trace my ancestry to White European people.

The same White European people that created every useful piece of technology, that we enjoy today and that dragged the rest of humanity out of living in poverty, squalor and filth. I will make no apologies for that.

If you visit Europe today you'll find modern, clean, wealthy and productive societies. If you visit North America or Australia you'll find the same.

But, take a trip down to Central America, Africa, India and most of Asia and you'll mostly find poverty, misery and disease.

It must be racism to blame.




Sucks to be you, doesn't it?

Nope...... But, judging by your post above stating you're wanting the government to tax certain segments of the population, in order to encourage you to breed yourself out of existence. It must REALLY suck to be you!

You probably have some sort of deep seated psychosis that needs treating...... It's likely a result of your obsession with the Pentecostal girl that dumped you for being inadequate.

You should stop constantly yelling out loud at Jesus, on the internet and seek professional help instead.