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View Full Version : 2 Women to Graduate from Ranger School



Mjölnir
08-18-2015, 03:32 AM
Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/08/17/history-made-first-female-soldiers-to-graduate-army-ranger-school/

Their class started in April with 380 males and 17 females, will graduate with 94 males and 2 females.

--Rangers lead the way.

Bos Mutus
08-18-2015, 05:11 AM
Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/08/17/history-made-first-female-soldiers-to-graduate-army-ranger-school/

Their class started in April with 380 males and 17 females, will graduate with 94 males and 2 females.

--Rangers lead the way.

HUA.....a fair opportunity is all that should be asked and offered

garhkal
08-18-2015, 06:25 AM
Good on those Ladies. Proves it CAN be done without lowering standards!

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
08-18-2015, 12:42 PM
Way to go for those two. I wouldn't make it past the icebreaker session on Day-1. Hi, I'm Flaps and I quit.

In all seriousness, lots of hateful comments on media blogs from so-called vets. They should be ashamed.

Mata Leao
08-18-2015, 01:59 PM
Good on those Ladies. Proves it CAN be done without lowering standards!

I haven't followed this story at all, but that is my question; were the standards the standards or were they adjusted?

MikeKerriii
08-18-2015, 03:54 PM
I haven't followed this story at all, but that is my question; were the standards the standards or were they adjusted?

They were not adjusted.

I congratulate those ladies wholeheartedly.

Rainmaker
08-18-2015, 04:31 PM
Good on those Ladies. Proves it CAN be done without lowering standards!

I don't think there was ever a question of whether or not it CAN be done. It was fait accompli from the minute they started scouring the Army for the first couple of Olympic caliber athletes that were gonna complete the course.

The question is whether it can be done in sufficient numbers, after you get through the first couple, you have to have them in sufficient numbers, you can't just have a couple. So, The standards will eventually drop.

But, either way it's an impressive accomplishment. Back in the early 90s I did some night land nav training on one of the RTB intermediate courses at Camp Rudder. It's no joke. It was taking us fly boys about an hour to navigate a 100 meters

garhkal
08-19-2015, 05:45 AM
I don't think there was ever a question of whether or not it CAN be done. It was fait accompli from the minute they started scouring the Army for the first couple of Olympic caliber athletes that were gonna complete the course.

The question is whether it can be done in sufficient numbers, after you get through the first couple, you have to have them in sufficient numbers, you can't just have a couple. So, The standards will eventually drop.


True. It is only telling if more ladies make it, as is (Not with any standards getting lowered).. BUT like you, i do feel eventually the Ranger school will get pressured "In the name of Diversity and equality" to lower the standards just to get more Ladies passing it..

UncaRastus
08-19-2015, 02:59 PM
Admiral Jon Greenert, the Chief of Naval Operations (CNO) is greenlighting the addition of women to the Seals program.

Also, the Marines are contemplating allowing women to train for MARSOC.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/08/18/navy-seals-open-women-top-admiral-says/31948789/

Rainmaker
08-19-2015, 03:03 PM
Admiral Jon Greenert, the Chief of Naval Operations (CNO) is greenlighting the addition of women to the Seals program.

Also, the Marines are contemplating allowing women to train for MARSOC.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/08/18/navy-seals-open-women-top-admiral-says/31948789/

Well, Of course they are..... The Girls running the Pentagon sincerely believe that the movie G.I. Jane was an actual historical documentary.

UncaRastus
08-19-2015, 03:32 PM
While I was in boot camp, during the thang in Vietnam, I was in the first series that were given the M16 for recruit training. Actually, we were issued CAR 15s, but anyway ...

We were also issued little comic books with voluptuous women teaching us how to clean our rifles. These ladies were wearing Army fatigues. They were also very much 'stacked' women.

Being trained somewhat by these Babes of Cartoonlandia, I suspect that that was a clever plot to make us all more amenable to women getting into combat.

Yes. That is what that was. Infiltrating our brains with good looking women, 'handling our rifles'. It was only a period of time until they would begin to infiltrate our Band of Brothers.

Oh, and the main character was wearing a cute little beret. A diabolical push at having the entire Army wearing berets!

Women! They are cunning!


114

TJMAC77SP
08-19-2015, 05:06 PM
While I was in boot camp, during the thang in Vietnam, I was in the first series that were given the M16 for recruit training. Actually, we were issued CAR 15s, but anyway ...

We were also issued little comic books with voluptuous women teaching us how to clean our rifles. These ladies were wearing Army fatigues. They were also very much 'stacked' women.

Being trained somewhat by these Babes of Cartoonlandia, I suspect that that was a clever plot to make us all more amenable to women getting into combat.

Yes. That is what that was. Infiltrating our brains with good looking women, 'handling our rifles'. It was only a period of time until they would begin to infiltrate our Band of Brothers.

Oh, and the main character was wearing a cute little beret. A diabolical push at having the entire Army wearing berets!

Women! They are cunning!


http://forums.militarytimes.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=114&stc=1

I was in training at Fort Knox in the summer of 1975. They would put about 100 of us in this huge classroom with this huge M-16 on a stand at the front. It came apart to show us the major parts groups. While they showed slides for the training about every 10th slide would be a picture of a nearly nude woman and every head would snap up. The attention span assured until the next such slide appeared. We had women in the class but they didn't get any eye candy. I laugh at this memory and shudder at the reaction if anyone would try that nowadays.

garhkal
08-19-2015, 05:15 PM
Admiral Jon Greenert, the Chief of Naval Operations (CNO) is greenlighting the addition of women to the Seals program.

Also, the Marines are contemplating allowing women to train for MARSOC.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/08/18/navy-seals-open-women-top-admiral-says/31948789/

GI Jane, here we come!

Absinthe Anecdote
08-19-2015, 06:08 PM
I was in training at Fort Knox in the summer of 1975. They would put about 100 of us in this huge classroom with this huge M-16 on a stand at the front. It came apart to show us the major parts groups. While they showed slides for the training about every 10th slide would be a picture of a nearly nude woman and every head would snap up. The attention span assured until the next such slide appeared. We had women in the class but they didn't get any eye candy. I laugh at this memory and shudder at the reaction if anyone would try that nowadays.

Did ABGD school used to be at Fort Knox, or are you prior Army too?

TJMAC77SP
08-20-2015, 04:29 AM
Did ABGD school used to be at Fort Knox, or are you prior Army too?

ROTC Basic Encampment.

Did my story upset you?

garhkal
08-20-2015, 06:00 AM
I was in training at Fort Knox in the summer of 1975. They would put about 100 of us in this huge classroom with this huge M-16 on a stand at the front. It came apart to show us the major parts groups. While they showed slides for the training about every 10th slide would be a picture of a nearly nude woman and every head would snap up. The attention span assured until the next such slide appeared. We had women in the class but they didn't get any eye candy. I laugh at this memory and shudder at the reaction if anyone would try that nowadays.

I wonder, if that was to happen now, how much outrage there would be.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-20-2015, 06:14 AM
ROTC Basic Encampment.

Did my story upset you?

No, just curious.

TJMAC77SP
08-20-2015, 02:35 PM
No, just curious.

But you disliked the post so I thought maybe it had upset you

Absinthe Anecdote
08-20-2015, 02:40 PM
But you disliked the post so I thought maybe it had upset you

Did I?

It wasn't intentional.

Sorry.

Mjölnir
08-20-2015, 03:50 PM
Did I?

It wasn't intentional.

Sorry.

If I could I would remove the dislike ... current software build won't let me ...

Mjölnir
08-20-2015, 04:16 PM
I was sitting back and discussing this with some folks at work earlier this week.

What really, wickedly impresses me about the females who will graduate is that they did it without a modification of the standards.

For reference I graduated Ranger school in 1999 (I think only 4 East Coast Marines did that year, not sure about West Coast (1MARDIV or 1st Force). I was the only Marine in the class.) I am about 6'1'' and at the time was about 200 pounds -- I am far from a stud or olympic athlete, but I have always been in decent shape. In the 62 days I was a student, I lost 22 pounds ... probably about 7-8 pounds of muscle mass. From the start, a woman has a smaller ratio or her body weight as muscle, they naturally have a higher percentage of body fat. Having seen photos of the two women who have made it, they are not hulking athletes, they appear fairly average. So, they likely have less muscle, are not as tall (think obstacle course etc.), they weigh less (higher rucksack to body weight ratios). So all told, those two women very likely had to push harder than I did to do the same thing I did ... and they did it. Good for them.


True. It is only telling if more ladies make it, as is (Not with any standards getting lowered).. BUT like you, i do feel eventually the Ranger school will get pressured "In the name of Diversity and equality" to lower the standards just to get more Ladies passing it..

I don't think we will really see that.

In the early 80's, women were allowed to train as Navy Divers, the standard was never lowered and while the attrition rate for women is higher than for men, the standards have not been modified "in the name of diversity and equality" to allow a high pass rate for females and females remain a below average (of overall Navy female population) source of personnel for Divers and Special Operations officers (different from NSW.)

The Ranger class graduating this week has a higher than 75% attrition rate for males, the females are just under 90%.

For comparison:

BUDS (SeAL training) has a roughly 75% attrition rate.

USMC Amphibious Reconnaissance School as a 65% attrition rate.

However, manning for SeALs, USMC Recon, the Ranger Regiment are above average as compared to other combat arms units. The Ranger regiment is manned better than other Army Airborne regiments and MARSOC has manning much better than standard infantry units ... people want to be there -- they compete to be there. There isn't a manning crunch that means they need to lower standards for anyone and still fill their TO&E. Half of the Soldiers in my Ranger class were not going to the Regiment.

Now, the standards to become Airborne qualified were modified decades ago since the necessity to have Airborne personnel who were not also 'special operations' assets. The missions changed and the school changed to meet the requirement.

TJMAC77SP
08-20-2015, 09:35 PM
Did I?

It wasn't intentional.

Sorry.


Oh, no big deal. Like you said, just curious.

Rainmaker
08-20-2015, 09:46 PM
I was sitting back and discussing this with some folks at work earlier this week.

What really, wickedly impresses me about the females who will graduate is that they did it without a modification of the standards.

For reference I graduated Ranger school in 1999 (I think only 4 East Coast Marines did that year, not sure about West Coast (1MARDIV or 1st Force). I was the only Marine in the class.) I am about 6'1'' and at the time was about 200 pounds -- I am far from a stud or olympic athlete, but I have always been in decent shape. In the 62 days I was a student, I lost 22 pounds ... probably about 7-8 pounds of muscle mass. From the start, a woman has a smaller ratio or her body weight as muscle, they naturally have a higher percentage of body fat. Having seen photos of the two women who have made it, they are not hulking athletes, they appear fairly average. So, they likely have less muscle, are not as tall (think obstacle course etc.), they weigh less (higher rucksack to body weight ratios). So all told, those two women very likely had to push harder than I did to do the same thing I did ... and they did it. Good for them.



I don't think we will really see that.

In the early 80's, women were allowed to train as Navy Divers, the standard was never lowered and while the attrition rate for women is higher than for men, the standards have not been modified "in the name of diversity and equality" to allow a high pass rate for females and females remain a below average (of overall Navy female population) source of personnel for Divers and Special Operations officers (different from NSW.)

The Ranger class graduating this week has a higher than 75% attrition rate for males, the females are just under 90%.

For comparison:

BUDS (SeAL training) has a roughly 75% attrition rate.

USMC Amphibious Reconnaissance School as a 65% attrition rate.

However, manning for SeALs, USMC Recon, the Ranger Regiment are above average as compared to other combat arms units. The Ranger regiment is manned better than other Army Airborne regiments and MARSOC has manning much better than standard infantry units ... people want to be there -- they compete to be there. There isn't a manning crunch that means they need to lower standards for anyone and still fill their TO&E. Half of the Soldiers in my Ranger class were not going to the Regiment.

Now, the standards to become Airborne qualified were modified decades ago since the necessity to have Airborne personnel who were not also 'special operations' assets. The missions changed and the school changed to meet the requirement.

. In your professional opinion, What would you guess the odds are, that there will be Females in the Ranger Regiment in the next couple of years?

Mjölnir
08-20-2015, 11:54 PM
. In your professional opinion, What would you guess the odds are, that there will be Females in the Ranger Regiment in the next couple of years?

I think it is a 100% chance. Now, their role there may vary if the current prohibition of women from the infantry is not altered. Right now there are females in support/non-combat arms roles within most Special Operations forces / units, the Ranger Regiment is no different. A female Navy Intel Officer I know has 4 Bronze Stars (1 with a V) for two tours she spent in support of and deploying with NSW. I think even including women in those jobs, there will be some instances where logistics will create issues:

ie. when I was a Division Officer for a direct support Division, we would receive requests for Sailors to augment ships while on deployment. Some ships would specifically state the team could only have [x] number of females due to limited berthing spaces. In those cases I think it is appropriate to keep logistics in mind ... 1 or two females over the berthing limit can be handled (usually by putting them -- or the most senior ones from the ship) in an officer stateroom. Too many just can't be supported based on the way ships' berthing is currently designed.

But, I think we are getting past the point of saying that 'women' can't do those jobs. The number might be small, but some can ... and if they can & they want to I don't have a problem with letting them.

A couple of things I could see:

If the infantry prohibition IS NOT changed:
-modify those support roles to require that females filling those billets would have to at least complete Ranger school.

-creation of a sub-set or specialty set of support personnel (women) who provide specialized support to combat units (ie the female enhancement teams in Iraq.)

If the infantry prohibition IS changed:

-a gradual phase in period of women into the companies and platoons. I don't think it is best to have the previous graduates of Ranger school who could not be assigned be instant company commanders without having had platoon commander experience ... but having them there as advisors/mentors to the platoon commanders would make sense.

I think eventually we will see the prohibition on females in the infantry and other combat arms areas changed; I think the percentage of females that actually do the job will always remain low -- lower than the overall percentage of females in the military.