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View Full Version : Gen. Odierno: We have to be careful about over-arming ourselves



garhkal
07-19-2015, 06:17 AM
Saw this while looking for related stories to the Chattanooga shooting..

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/stasi-arming-troops-recuiting-centers-dangerous-article-1.2296597

http://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2015/07/17/army-chief-security-at-recruiting-posts-will-be-reviewed

http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/07/17/army-chief-staff-odierno-gun-free-policies-military-bases

I failed to link the GOPUSA site i also saw it at, cause i know how many here feel about that site..

But that said, what do you all think?
And since the "General is concerned about accidental discharges', i take it he is going to immediately disarm HIS security force he has.

BUT one of the best comments i saw in relation to it, WAS on the GOPUSA site..

With everyone and everything going into the internet for almost everything these days (even job applications), WHY do we still even have brick and mortar recruitment offices? Why not recruit online?

MikeKerriii
07-19-2015, 07:15 AM
Saw this while looking for related stories to the Chattanooga shooting..

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/stasi-arming-troops-recuiting-centers-dangerous-article-1.2296597

http://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2015/07/17/army-chief-security-at-recruiting-posts-will-be-reviewed

http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/07/17/army-chief-staff-odierno-gun-free-policies-military-bases

I failed to link the GOPUSA site i also saw it at, cause i know how many here feel about that site..

But that said, what do you all think?
And since the "General is concerned about accidental discharges', i take it he is going to immediately disarm HIS security force he has.

BUT one of the best comments i saw in relation to it, WAS on the GOPUSA site..

With everyone and everything going into the internet for almost everything these days (even job applications), WHY do we still even have brick and mortar recruitment offices? Why not recruit online?

I Doubt Ordierno's security forces include too many E-1through 4s fresh out of training. And even few stumble bumbs which exist in every large organization military and civilian

You Don't think having a million of so people carrying firearms daily is going to cause a significant number of accidental deaths?

Absinthe Anecdote
07-19-2015, 10:27 AM
AP reports:

A day after a gunman shot and killed four Marines and wounded three other people in Chattanooga, Gen. Ray Odierno, chief of staff of the Army, told reporters that arming troops in those offices could cause more problems than it might solve.

"I think we have to be careful about over-arming ourselves, and I'm not talking about where you end up attacking each other," Odierno said during a morning breakfast. Instead, he said, it's more about "accidental discharges and everything else that goes along with having weapons that are loaded that causes injuries."

The General is absolutely right to say what he said.

Speaking as someone who served their first four years in the military carrying weapons everyday, I know firsthand what he is saying is true.

I never liked qualifying with large groups of people at the range, because you never know when someone is going to fuck up.


I've been on enough deployments to know that accidental discharges are a real problem.

Plus, the vast majority of troops rarely handle weapons or are even trained on the use of deadly force.

The General is looking at the issue like a responsible leader should, and not flying off the handle because of his emotions or politics.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
07-19-2015, 12:47 PM
I Doubt Ordierno's security forces include too many E-1through 4s fresh out of training. And even few stumble bumbs which exist in every large organization military and civilian

You Don't think having a million of so people carrying firearms daily is going to cause a significant number of accidental deaths?

E1s - E4s? How about E5s and above only?

Also, with millions of TRAINED people carrying firearms, I would expect few, if any accidental deaths. You don't hear about it for the millions of concealed carry permit holders, and you don't hear about it from cops. So why would it be any different for military, who by the way have more training than the majority of concealed permit holders?

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
07-19-2015, 12:49 PM
Plus, the vast majority of troops rarely handle weapons or are even trained on the use of deadly force.

THAT is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. Write it again,please.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-19-2015, 02:59 PM
THAT is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. Write it again,please.

I'm beginning to doubt that you were even in the military based on your reaction to that statement.

The vast majority of troops do jobs that are in support roles and don't carry weapons on a day-to-day basis, even in the Army and Marine Corps.

I've seen people do idiotic things with weapons at the firing range, and at deployed locations because they were unfamiliar with the weapons they were carrying.

Just because you are a NRA supporter, don't pull your grumpy old man routine with me.

UncaRastus
07-19-2015, 04:24 PM
I highly doubt that any Marine who would be allowed to carry his or her issued sidearm while doing recruiting duty would ever have an accidental discharge of that weapon.

Why? Because a Marine carrying a pistol, ie., a semi automatic clip fed weapon, would not go to work with a round in the chamber. The weapon might have a fully loaded clip, but it takes racking the slide of the pistol, to make it ready to fire. And that isn't done accidentally.

And then there is the safety catch on sidearms. Always used, until that weapon is brought up, ready to fire.

No one is allowed to carry a pistol on duty unless they have been trained to use it, in the USMC. The use of the pistol's safety catch, and when to actually jack in a round is a part of the training. No one ignores those rules.

As far as I can remember, the same goes for rifles. It takes less than a second to chamber a round.

When the command 'Lock and load' is given, then the weapon is charged. With the safety catch on.

It has been awhile, since I was in the Corps. But some things never change.

Maybe you have seen Marines firing their weapons prematurely at a firing range, AA? I have never seen that. Doing Drill Instructor at Parris Island, being on the firing range with 250 - 270 recruits doing their qualification weapons firing, for 2 years, I never once saw that happen, either as a recruit, a Marine, or as a Drill Instructor.

It wouldn't be like a Marine going to work with a weapon that he or she hasn't ever fired before, during their life as a Marine. That would be unconscionable.

waveshaper2
07-19-2015, 04:48 PM
Why? Because a Marine carrying a pistol, ie., a semi automatic clip fed weapon, would not go to work with a round in the chamber. The weapon might have a fully loaded clip, but it takes racking the slide of the pistol, to make it ready to fire. And that isn't done accidentally.

And then there is the safety catch on sidearms. Always used, until that weapon is brought up, ready to fire.


That's not how the USAF does it with the M9 9mm pistol. SOP is (or was) round in the camber, safety catch in the fire position, and then the weapon is secured in the holster.

UncaRastus
07-19-2015, 05:05 PM
It has been awhile. Maybe the USMC did change, under it's glacially slow rate of change, also?

Absinthe Anecdote
07-19-2015, 05:43 PM
I highly doubt that any Marine who would be allowed to carry his or her issued sidearm while doing recruiting duty would ever have an accidental discharge of that weapon.

Why? Because a Marine carrying a pistol, ie., a semi automatic clip fed weapon, would not go to work with a round in the chamber. The weapon might have a fully loaded clip, but it takes racking the slide of the pistol, to make it ready to fire. And that isn't done accidentally.

And then there is the safety catch on sidearms. Always used, until that weapon is brought up, ready to fire.

No one is allowed to carry a pistol on duty unless they have been trained to use it, in the USMC. The use of the pistol's safety catch, and when to actually jack in a round is a part of the training. No one ignores those rules.

As far as I can remember, the same goes for rifles. It takes less than a second to chamber a round.

When the command 'Lock and load' is given, then the weapon is charged. With the safety catch on.

It has been awhile, since I was in the Corps. But some things never change.

Maybe you have seen Marines firing their weapons prematurely at a firing range, AA? I have never seen that. Doing Drill Instructor at Parris Island, being on the firing range with 250 - 270 recruits doing their qualification weapons firing, for 2 years, I never once saw that happen, either as a recruit, a Marine, or as a Drill Instructor.

It wouldn't be like a Marine going to work with a weapon that he or she hasn't ever fired before, during their life as a Marine. That would be unconscionable.

The standard of training is so uneven across the branches, and even within specific branches of service.

Even if Marines and soliders are given great training in boot camp, once they move on to jobs where they are not handling firearms on a regular basis, those skills degrade.

Marines aren't immune from shooting the clearing barrel, or doing stupid shit with their weapons. Don't try to tell me otherwise, I've seen it first hand.

I know for a fact that that negligent discharges in Iraq and Afghanistan were a serious problem.

I was working in the Pentagon after the surge in Iraq, and in some months more people were getting killed and injured from accidental discharges than from hostile fire. I heard the briefings and saw the stats on a regular basis. It was a big problem in Afghanistan too.

Negligent discharges are even a nasty little secret in civilian police forces. Even a person who has carried a weapon everyday for years can become careless and negligent.

People fuck up and make mistakes in spite of great training.

Waveshaper is correct, the M-9 is typically carried with a round in the chamber.

I don't know why anyone would want to give a recruiter a fucking rifle to carry when they are doing office work.

@garkhal was way off base for criticizing General Odierno's comments on arming recruiters.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-19-2015, 05:49 PM
It has been awhile. Maybe the USMC did change, under it's glacially slow rate of change, also?

I am sure Marines were doing dumb shit with their weapons in your day too.

Seriously, are you going to try to tell me that the Marines of your era never screwed off or busted regulations and standards?

Max Power
07-19-2015, 05:57 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/u-navy-recruiter-shoots-himself-leg-georgia-215310697.html

Way to go Navy.

MikeKerriii
07-19-2015, 06:08 PM
E1s - E4s? How about E5s and above only?

Also, with millions of TRAINED people carrying firearms, I would expect few, if any accidental deaths. You don't hear about it for the millions of concealed carry permit holders, and you don't hear about it from cops. So why would it be any different for military, who by the way have more training than the majority of concealed permit holders?

We get more that a few accidental deaths to firearms now, Are you really a retired member of the military?

Conceal weapons holders mess up just like everyone else and even cops accidentally shoot themselves and others, Cops who spend far more time on weapons use and safety than most military people do.

MikeKerriii
07-19-2015, 06:12 PM
THAT is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. Write it again,please.

Unless you were in one of very few AFSCs or positions in the USAF all the weapons training you received combined would be trivial, USAF standard firearms training would have to improve greatly to make it up to the level of joke.

For example: How many weeks of weapons training was involved in your initial training and how many days a year did you train after that?

UncaRastus
07-19-2015, 06:44 PM
AA,

I am sure that accidental discharges did happen while I was in. However, that never happened while I was present, at the firing ranges.

garhkal
07-19-2015, 07:35 PM
E1s - E4s? How about E5s and above only?

Also, with millions of TRAINED people carrying firearms, I would expect few, if any accidental deaths. You don't hear about it for the millions of concealed carry permit holders, and you don't hear about it from cops. So why would it be any different for military, who by the way have more training than the majority of concealed permit holders?

My points Exactly Flaps. Just taking the Cops, FBI, DEA, ATF, Hoover dam guards (and other armed guards for facilities like that) and other federal agents only, there are quite a lot that carry all the time. But you don't ever hear of them having accidental discharges on the job, or people dying.
Do people honestly believe the military are so farked up that we WILL get them?
If so, why then do we train everyone year after year IN Gun care/carry/use?


I'm beginning to doubt that you were even in the military based on your reaction to that statement.

The vast majority of troops do jobs that are in support roles and don't carry weapons on a day-to-day basis, even in the Army and Marine Corps.

AA. I spent my last 5 years of naval service in the Seabees. EVEN OUR Yeomen and supply clerks ALL WENT TO THE RANGE, every 9-10 months to qualify/re-qualify on both the pistol and rifle.
And knowing the deadly force rules were CONSISTENTLY drummed into us during the 2 day class portion OF that requal week.

When i served on my 2 carriers, EVERYONE who was eligible to serve as security rover, or POOW had to get qualified on the pistol or shotgun. The only ones who didn't were the few rates/divisions, who didn't have their folk sent ONTO the general watchbill for the ship (Engineering mostly).


Maybe you have seen Marines firing their weapons prematurely at a firing range, AA? I have never seen that. Doing Drill Instructor at Parris Island, being on the firing range with 250 - 270 recruits doing their qualification weapons firing, for 2 years, I never once saw that happen, either as a recruit, a Marine, or as a Drill Instructor.

In my 20 years in, i saw only around a dozen incidences of people screwing up on a range, that made me concerned. Three times it was someone who 'failed' to switch the weapon to safe after a course of fire of 5 rounds, then when it came to their next course of 5 rounds they switched it to full auto. 2 of the 3 got immediately kicked off the range, and lost their OK to carry. The other, actually went to mast, cause while 'questioning the range masters orders, they struck OUT at the RM.
1 was a female of around 5ft 4 and maybe 120lb wet, qualing on the shotgun. She just did NOT have the grip strength to properly hold the shotgun, and when she discharged it from her hip, it flew up. 2 other small people (a 2nd female, barely 5ft, and a 5ft 5 dude, skinny as heck) had the recoil toss them back and also causing them to lose grip on the gun.

4 of the incidents cause they got hot brass down their shirt, and cause they were squirming around, they 'flagged' other people.

So 12 in 20 years, out of well over 10+ thousand i have been at the range with is NO where near enough of an issue to make me worry.


That's not how the USAF does it with the M9 9mm pistol. SOP is (or was) round in the camber, safety catch in the fire position, and then the weapon is secured in the holster.

Same in the Navy. Every time we were armed with the 9mm (or old colt M1911 .45) we carried it racked with 1 in the tube. Only the M4/16 or the shotgun did we carry in condition 3 (rounds in the mag, mag inserted chamber empty).


I don't know why anyone would want to give a recruiter a fucking rifle to carry when they are doing office work.

Who ever said anything about arming them with a rifle. I JUST want them armed.


http://news.yahoo.com/u-navy-recruiter-shoots-himself-leg-georgia-215310697.html

Way to go Navy.

DOH!


We get more that a few accidental deaths to firearms now, Are you really a retired member of the military?

Conceal weapons holders mess up just like everyone else and even cops accidentally shoot themselves and others, Cops who spend far more time on weapons use and safety than most military people do.

Do you by chance have #s to back up that claim?



For example: How many weeks of weapons training was involved in your initial training and how many days a year did you train after that?

Not sure how the AF does it but the Navy has it where once a year at least (normally done every 9 months or so) we do a full week of re-qual. 2 days in class followed by a written test (needing 80% to pass), followed by 3 days on the range. Day one of range time is always just to get you 'refamiliar' with firing the weapon. Day 2 and 3 (If needed), were to actually requalify.

waveshaper2
07-19-2015, 07:46 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/u-navy-recruiter-shoots-himself-leg-georgia-215310697.html

Way to go Navy.

Well that didn't take to long.
Excerpt; A U.S. Navy recruiter in Georgia accidentally shot himself in the leg with his own handgun Friday at a local recruiting office, police said.

The accident in Gainesville, Georgia, north of Atlanta, took place a day after four Marines were killed and three other people injured in attacks at two military facilities in Chattanooga, Tennessee.

UncaRastus
07-19-2015, 07:52 PM
And here I thought that no one doing recruiting duty was allowed to carry a weapon. He should have been trained stringently on the weapon. Also, he should not have had a round in the chamber.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-19-2015, 08:26 PM
E1s - E4s? How about E5s and above only?

Also, with millions of TRAINED people carrying firearms, I would expect few, if any accidental deaths. You don't hear about it for the millions of concealed carry permit holders, and you don't hear about it from cops. So why would it be any different for military, who by the way have more training than the majority of concealed permit holders?

Bullshit in the first degree!

http://www.policemag.com/list/tag/accidental-discharges.aspx

As for your millions of concealed permit holders who never do anything dumb with their weapons, I'm not buying that either.

http://www.citylab.com/crime/2014/09/americans-who-carry-concealed-weapons-keep-accidentally-shooting-themselves-in-public-bathrooms/380327/

And before you clowns start accusing me of being anti-2nd Ammendment, that is not the case with me.

I think we should be able to own and carry firearms in certain situations.

However, I do acknowledge there are consequences in allowing people to carry firearms, negligent discharges are one of them.

Let's be intellectually honest about it, people screw up.

In my four years as a Air Force cop, I saw enough dumb shit with weapons to make me be wary of anyone carrying a firearm.

When I was an Intel troop and deployed a few times with DIA civilians and troops from all four branches I saw even more scary shit.

Those god damned shoulder holsters are scary as hell on some people. If someone fucks up removing their weapon from a shoulder holster and you are standing behind them, you have a good chance of taking a bullet to the chest or head.

MikeKerriii
07-19-2015, 10:04 PM
AA,

I am sure that accidental discharges did happen while I was in. However, that never happened while I was present, at the firing ranges.

That was with Marines, and you were lucky. But imagine that with Air Force and Navy types who, on a relative basis, have almost no training.

UncaRastus
07-19-2015, 10:05 PM
Maybe I am too much of a fanboy for 'No Round in the Chamber Until You Are Ready To Fire'. Maybe not.

When I was 7 years old, I went to the neighbor's house to play Cowboys and Indians. I was a cowboy, and had the real cap gun type 'revolver' to prove that!

Why, I fired off my cap pistol at a charging white Indian! Of course, a cap gun being a cap gun, that Indian kept on charging at me!

This white Indian was carrying a pellet gun. Of course it was not loaded. Or so he thought.

He was within arms length, and he shot me dead on, right into the sternum. With a pellet. He said repeatedly, "I thought it wasn't loaded!"

I went home, and my mother had to remove that pellet from my sternum. Minimum penetration, but it did knock the wind out of me. I would have probably been hurt more if he had pumped his pellet gun up more, or maybe it was an an almost exhausted CO2 cylinder.

Right then I did actually learn why George Custer didn't do so well at the Little Big Horn.

Anyway, I do have a concealed carry weapons license. When I am done shooting at the firing range, I make sure that the weapon is cleared. I take it home, and I clean it. Then I insert a full clip. And I NEVER rack back the action with a clip in the weapon, unless I am on the firing range.

Once burned, I learned what to do, and what not to do.

And that would keep anyone using a shoulder holster from having to replace their holster.

Mjölnir
07-19-2015, 10:44 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/u-navy-recruiter-shoots-himself-leg-georgia-215310697.html

Way to go Navy.

Go Nav..... oh ... shit.

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/despicableme/images/c/cb/Daveindm.png/revision/latest?cb=20130717164957

Mjölnir
07-19-2015, 11:54 PM
A couple of different thoughts floating around in the thread:

1. I have heard two chains of thought, one allowing recruiters to carry firearms while on duty and another to allow military personnel to carry firearms regardless of state / local laws by virtue of being in the military.

-IMO, probably a bad idea for a couple of reasons:

As was stated, the standard for firearms training & weapons handling varies drastically from service to service and even with each service depending on MOS/AFSC/rating & duties actually assigned. As is seen here, there is a difference in what firing condition different branches consider acceptable when not actively firing. For what it is worth, when standing post or on patrol, we maintained our weapons in Condition One: Safety on, magazine inserted, round in chamber, bolt forward, ejection port cover (rifle) closed.

If we (DoD) came up with a legislative proposal that Congress passed that would allow the military (essentially federally backed personnel) to carry weapons regardless of state/local law (similar to FBI etc.) to whose standard would we all train? Where do we build in the various training schedules because there is the actual weapons handling to consider, marksmanship, shoot / no-shoot scenarios to practice. It is a lot more than a one or two day training evolution you are talking about because (let’s face it) DoD wouldn’t allow this without a pretty serious amount of training because when (not if … when) there is an incident / mistake DoD will take it on the chin.

The USMC has a requirement for all Marines to qualify every year, however if you are not stationed at a base with a range unless you are in a specific billet, you will be exempt for that year (when I was a guard at Camp David the guard company was bussed from DC down to Quantico VA for our annual requal – but the folks working admin or supply were not.) I am not sure how the Army or USAF do it honestly; some Army and AF folks I have worked with were very professional with weapons, it was easy to tell who had been through the ‘minimum required training’ prior to deploying.


And here I thought that no one doing recruiting duty was allowed to carry a weapon. He should have been trained stringently on the weapon. Also, he should not have had a round in the chamber.

From what I read on the Navy Command Center Page, the recruiter was carrying a personal weapon – in accordance with local law -- not a gov’t weapon.

2. Are military shooters / firearms carriers any safer than civilians with carry permits?
-Again, my opinion – by an large that answer is a resounding no. Many people think we must train and train with weapons since we are the ‘armed forces’, the reality is (as Absinthe Anecdote put it) that the majority of people in the military do not use firearms on a regular basis. For those that do (infantry, post guards / watchstanders etc.) they do not go through shoot/no-shoot scenarios like law enforcement does (I was in the Marines (infantry) 10 years before going through significant shoot/no-shoot training.


Not sure how the AF does it but the Navy has it where once a year at least (normally done every 9 months or so) we do a full week of re-qual. 2 days in class followed by a written test (needing 80% to pass), followed by 3 days on the range. Day one of range time is always just to get you 'refamiliar' with firing the weapon. Day 2 and 3 (If needed), were to actually requalify.

That definitely is a not a requirement by instruction any longer. Currently ships have extreme difficulty in getting all the personnel they need to get qualified as rovers / armed watchstanders qualified due to range closure / consolidation and available shooting quotas. Those that do qualify for basic qualification do an online CBT, test and then the basic course of fire (1/2 day.)

In my 12 years in the Marines, I was an infantryman and reconnaissance Marine for a significant portion of my time, and we handled weapons extensively … and people had negligent discharges, training accidents etc. It happens – there is no 100% prevention for people doing stupid things.

3. GEN Odierno’s statement about recruiters.

Looking at it from his chair, I can’t find too much fault in his statement for a couple of reasons:

-What kind of liability would the Army or he be under if he orders recruiters to arm themselves and then a bystander is accidentally shot by a Solider?

-The optic of the Chief of Staff of the Army telling all his Soldiers to start carrying in the civilian populace at large is bad. In my hometown, not such a big deal, in Annapolis MD where I live now … big deal.

-What about Soldiers who are stationed or live in areas where state/local law would not permit them to carry a concealed weapon? He should avoid even the inference that he is suggesting Soldiers to violate local law.

UncaRastus
07-20-2015, 12:28 AM
While I was standing guard, the shotgun had a round chambered, safety on. When I was doing Corporal of the Guard, we weren't allowed to have a round chambered in our .45 ACPs, unless we ran into some kind of problem with a guard calling in an area infiltrated call.

That being said, I think that with what Mjolnir has just stated, I retract my support of arming recruiters.

And as a point of reference, the Navy guy had his own weapon in a 'No Weapons Allowed' area. What was he thinking?

But if recruiters are to be armed, I would insist on not having a round chambered, unless something calling for rounds downrange pops up. But then, maybe luckily, I am not in charge of making those kinds of decisions.

Mjölnir
07-20-2015, 01:06 AM
A big point that I left off ... I am not saying that people should not be allowed to conceal carry or open carry ... I don't think we should push for recruiters all military personnel to be allowed to carry in lieu of state/local law because they are part of the armed forces. If we wish to carry weapons off post, we should go through the same process as other citizens and follow local laws.

MikeKerriii
07-20-2015, 02:24 AM
A big point that I left off ... I am not saying that people should not be allowed to conceal carry or open carry ... I don't think we should push for recruiters all military personnel to be allowed to carry in lieu of state/local law because they are part of the armed forces. If we wish to carry weapons off post, we should go through the same process as other citizens and follow local laws.

I just have two question and one point to add to post, a very good post at that.

Cops have immunity from prosecution if they simply guess wrong, Would a Soldier/Airman/Sail or on American streets?

How would the crazies like those going nuts about Jade Helm respond to this?

Mjölnir
07-20-2015, 04:18 AM
Cops have immunity from prosecution if they simply guess wrong, Would a Soldier/Airman/Sail or on American streets?

Police are acting as sworn law enforcement officers. If they make a judgement call (guess) based on the best information available at the time and they are wrong, they are covered; if they ignore that "best available information at the time" they tend to find themselves found to be negligent.

I don't know if a service member would be (nor should be) afforded that same level of immunity or protection from the state or local government if they made a bad call.

garhkal
07-20-2015, 05:24 AM
Those god damned shoulder holsters are scary as hell on some people. If someone fucks up removing their weapon from a shoulder holster and you are standing behind them, you have a good chance of taking a bullet to the chest or head.

When i was deployed, even though the base PX sold shoulder holsters, we were prohibited from buying and USING one while carrying our 9mm.. All CAUSE of that above issue. And i agree they are stupid (well at least the ones that face rearward).


That was with Marines, and you were lucky. But imagine that with Air Force and Navy types who, on a relative basis, have almost no training.

MK. I had 20 years in the navy. Are you really saying that we are not trained?


Police are acting as sworn law enforcement officers. If they make a judgement call (guess) based on the best information available at the time and they are wrong, they are covered; if they ignore that "best available information at the time" they tend to find themselves found to be negligent.

I don't know if a service member would be (nor should be) afforded that same level of immunity or protection from the state or local government if they made a bad call.

Well, remembering several cases where there were calls for mil troops in Iraq to get put on trial for killing civilians, i can certainly see it happening here.

Mjölnir
07-20-2015, 05:39 AM
I had 20 years in the navy. Are you really saying that we are not trained?

I would say that most Sailors today lack sufficient training to properly handle weapons, especially if because they are in the Navy is the reason to assume they are qualified / trained.




Well, remembering several cases where there were calls for mil troops in Iraq to get put on trial for killing civilians, i can certainly see it happening here.

And if they are negligent (in Iraq or in the US) they should be tried.

MikeKerriii
07-20-2015, 08:05 AM
MK. I had 20 years in the navy. Are you really saying that we are not trained? Not even close to being trained when carring weapons mixed in with the pubic, even your own statement about how much training you a have backs that up. Cops barely get enough formal raining In s when to use a weapons and there is no way in help the military can spend the resources to train, and maintain training for all the people we are talking about. I would think the level of training for a Mitary Cop would be about right, certainly not much less than that if any.


Well, remembering several cases where there were calls for mil troops in Iraq to get put on trial for killing civilians, i can certainly see it happening here. Killing the people we swear to protect pretty much defeats the purpose.

With the current suicide rate we really want ot make it easy for everyone in Uniform to swallow their gun on an impulse? We are losing to many people that way already

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
07-20-2015, 12:50 PM
With the current suicide rate we really want ot make it easy for everyone in Uniform to swallow their gun on an impulse? We are losing to many people that way already

Ah...the leftist assertion that mother government's job is to protect you from yourself. Looks like the current suicide rate is doing just fine WITHOUT guns, don't you think?

Hey, while we're at it why do we allow ANY alcohol to be consumed by service members? I mean, we make it so easy for them to do something stupid. Think of the lives we could save with more regulation and restrictions. You know, service members don't really join for college benefits, patriotism, travel, and all that crazy stuff. They join because they know government will protect them from stupid decisions!

Guns or no guns, if someone wants to really kill themselves, they'll find a way. Don't need people like you "protecting" them.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-20-2015, 03:32 PM
I think there should be a program to provide guns to low income families and homeless people.

I'm hoping to get gun enthusiasts who have more than one gun to donate their extra guns to the homeless and low income families.

Arming the homeless makes a lot of sense, they can be an extra set of eyes on the street to thwart mass shooters.

Since homeless people often sleep on steam vents near big buildings, arming them makes perfect sense. They can help protect our critical infrastructure.

Low income families should be able to protect their families too. They typically live in bad neighborhoods that have a lot of crime, so giving them guns makes sense.

They could also help prevent crime if they were armed.

UncaRastus
07-20-2015, 04:14 PM
AA,

I agree! But let us not stop there! We should arm all of the smaller kids from birth onwards, with .50 cal M2 machines guns! No more bullying, ever!

We should arm the bigger bully type kids with drinking straws, which can be used for anything from shooting paper wads to being used as flexible knives, so that they can feel as if they armed, also.

We wouldn't want to harm a child's sense of self esteem, do we?

Think of the children!

You are asking me how could a child carry their very own Ma Deuce about? How do I know? That's their problem.

Rainmaker
07-20-2015, 05:04 PM
Rainmaker's take on all this....

1. if we didn't permit people from cultures with a Stone Age Sharia mentality to emigrate here in the first place, this tradgedy never would've happened..... We freed Kuwait for them at great cost, so why was Muhammad Youssuf Abdulazeez even here? Who paid for his Engineering school at UT?

2. Coming from Odierno, these comments should not be surprising at all. What else would you expect from the "Patton Of Counter Insurgency"?

If they had any honor, He and the rest of the "Politically reliable" NEOCON Petraeus COIN crowd would all have resigned in disgrace. Getting Thousands of People killed and Tens of Thousands maimed through your refusal to admit a failed COIN strategy isn't enough.

Now, according to him we have to keep our recruiters disarmed in order to protect them and we need another 20 years of supplemental O&M funding to eradicate ISIS/L

3. In over 3 years BOG OEF/OIF and another 8 Months in WW-Desert Storm. Rainmaker never once heard of anyone accidentally shooting themselves. We did have two commit suicide though.

4. During 23 years in the Military, Rainmaker estimate he probably shot for qualification over 100 times. In all that time, Only can recall one accidental discharge ever happening (after the line had been made safe), and it was By a Navy O-5 qualifying for the first time ever (with an M-4) and trying to clear a malfunction with the Bootylicious, E-4, Female AF instructor standing right there next to him.

5. Agree with our Ol' Uncle Rastas. Double action M9 or not, Carrying a round in the chamber on base is a recipe for disaster, there's no good reason for it. I never did it and therefore anyone that did is a fucking idiot.

6. It takes over a thousand repetitions to create muscle memory. Popping off 80 rounds every 6-12 months is wholly inadequate (unless you grew up in the country). Dry fire is better than No fire. I say we shit-can the Supposed 15,000 trans-genders we're catering to and use that $ savings to buy training Ammo so, that our people can be proficient with their weapons.

7.Sometimes less is more......When Rainmaker is out traveling amongst the English, His everyday carry is 2" snub nose .38, If a Jihadist attacks He feel confident in his ability to take them down from 20+ yards even with the weak hand. In case his strong hand only has 2 usable fingers ala Nelson-Mikekerr #3

8. Nomsayin?

Rollyn01
07-20-2015, 05:42 PM
7.Sometimes less is more......When Rainmaker is out traveling amongst the English, His everyday carry is 2" snub nose .38, If a Jihadist attacks He feel confident in his ability to take them down from 20+ yards even with the weak hand. In case his strong hand only has 2 usable fingers ala Nelson-Mikekerr #3


Does that mean the MP-5s I ordered for the bunker should be canceled? I mean, seeing as the ammo's already delivered, what would be the point? By the way, I got a special order on a couple of parts to convert our Howitzer into a disappearing rifle that needs you signature. Something about not trusting a black guy with a big gun or some such nonsense. Also, why in the hell do we have a large water tower for? I thought we was burying our water source underground or did you change the floor plan without annotations again?

UncaRastus
07-20-2015, 05:46 PM
Rainyday,

My CCWed weapon of choice is a .45 ACP. My back up is much smaller. It is a 5 shot derringer styled .22 mag, with hollow points.

The .22 fits in any pocket, and it is for close in firing. 5 belly shots with 5 hollow pointed .22 mag bullets can compromise the descending aorta rather quickly.

My house defense is a 12 gauge Mossberg Ranger, loaded with 00 buck. It's short barrel makes for an easier way about the house, and it does have that characteristic sound of death approaching, when the slide is used.

If my grandson is visiting, when he gets to the stage of being able to reach up to grab the shotgun, it will be put up much higher.

The two other pistols that I carry concealed? When not carried, they will be secured, also.

All that said, it is always preferable to walk away from a situation, if at all possible.

If it is a break in into my house, I have no compulsions against dropping the hammer.

If someone is stealing a garden gnome outside? I would probably help him. Angie does have this strange sense of how she thinks garden gnomes are cute.

Even those garden gnomes that I have placed explosives inside of. If they can take them and not be blowed up, then they deserve them. However, Rainman, please. If you need to steal my garden gnomes, please call me first. I will send you a diagram as to which to take and which to leave alone.

Rainmaker
07-20-2015, 05:53 PM
Rainyday,

My CCWed weapon of choice is a .45 ACP.

Good choice and This is what Rainmaker would expect from someone who's been around long enough to have served with Sgt York.

SomeRandomGuy
07-20-2015, 05:55 PM
If someone is stealing a garden gnome outside? I would probably help him. Angie does have this strange sense of how she thinks garden gnomes are cute.

Even those garden gnomes that I have placed explosives inside of. If they can take them and not be blowed up, then they deserve them. However, Rainman, please. If you need to steal my garden gnomes, please call me first. I will send you a diagram as to which to take and which to leave alone.

This reminds me of a story. A redneck I knew in McDonald County Missouri was having issues keeping his firewood on his porch. It was the darndst thing. Damn logs would grow legs and seemingly walk away. Well Mr. Redneck got tired of chopping wood so one day he hollowed out a few logs and placed some TNT inside. About a week later he hears a loud boom from down the road.. His son's fireplace exploded. I guess that explains where the firewood had been going. Shouldn't be stealing from Dad you lazy little fucker. Chop your own wood.

Rollyn01
07-20-2015, 06:04 PM
This reminds me of a story. A redneck I knew in McDonald County Missouri was having issues keeping his firewood on his porch. It was the darndst thing. Damn logs would grow legs and seemingly walk away. Well Mr. Redneck got tired of chopping wood so one day he hollowed out a few logs and placed some TNT inside. About a week later he hears a loud boom from down the road.. His son's fireplace exploded. I guess that explains where the firewood had been going. Shouldn't be stealing from Dad you lazy little fucker. Chop your own wood.

"Remember parents, discipline your children the right way... by BOOMSTICK BITCHES!!!"

UncaRastus
07-20-2015, 06:06 PM
RainPuddle,

Sergeant York sent me a messenger pigeon asking me what to do, and I sent back a pigeon with the message telling him what to do, over in France. You see, I was rather busy at the time, picking off the Hun from long distance with my trusty Springfield '03.

You know, to close in with them, well ... their dirty old trenches were below my standards ...

Also, their spiked helmets made me laugh and laugh, and you how hard it is keep a good sight picture when you're laughing, right? Long distance, I really couldn't make out the little stuff like that.

Rainmaker
07-20-2015, 06:12 PM
Does that mean the MP-5s I ordered for the bunker should be canceled? I mean, seeing as the ammo's already delivered, what would be the point? By the way, I got a special order on a couple of parts to convert our Howitzer into a disappearing rifle that needs you signature. Something about not trusting a black guy with a big gun or some such nonsense. Also, why in the hell do we have a large water tower for? I thought we was burying our water source underground or did you change the floor plan without annotations again?

Don't let your mystical power get too intoxicating My Obeah man, .... When we're out and about amongst the English, It's of necessity that we conceal our intentions from the Red Coats..... Like that Chinese guy Sun Tzu says. Nomsayin?

UncaRastus
07-20-2015, 06:15 PM
SomeRandomGuy,

What you are telling me is that storing my sticks of dynamite in my log pile is a good idea, or a bad idea?

Those garden gnomes filled with black powder, shrapnel, a clicker device actuated primer and trip wires are there for ... um, if trees decide to grow around them. I don't want any more trees in my yard! And those darned squirrels, who do they think they are, dropping acorns that grow into trees!

The nerve of those squirrels! Why, the other day, I heard a couple of them laughing at me!

Excuse me. I see one now. I think that a preemptive strike is order.

Ka-Chink ...

UncaRastus
07-20-2015, 06:19 PM
English? Now you are a RC Amish dude???

Rainmaker
07-20-2015, 06:22 PM
English? Now you are a RC Amish dude???

Abs got me questioning my Pre-Vatican II Orthodox faith so, Rainmaker converted Saturday Afternoon at the Farmer's Market, just to be safe .

MikeKerriii
07-20-2015, 07:22 PM
Ah...the leftist assertion that mother government's job is to protect you from yourself. Looks like the current suicide rate is doing just fine WITHOUT guns, don't you think?

Hey, while we're at it why do we allow ANY alcohol to be consumed by service members? I mean, we make it so easy for them to do something stupid. Think of the lives we could save with more regulation and restrictions. You know, service members don't really join for college benefits, patriotism, travel, and all that crazy stuff. They join because they know government will protect them from stupid decisions!

Guns or no guns, if someone wants to really kill themselves, they'll find a way. Don't need people like you "protecting" them.

What is wrong wirth America trying to protect people that were harmed in service to our country? Really, that is a simply pitiful argument that makes you doubt you have even been near a uniform.

MikeKerriii
07-20-2015, 07:25 PM
Rainmaker's take on all this....

7.Sometimes less is more......When Rainmaker is out traveling amongst the English, His everyday carry is 2" snub nose .38, If a Jihadist attacks He feel confident in his ability to take them down from 20+ yards even with the weak hand. In case his strong hand only has 2 usable fingers ala Nelson-Mikekerr #3

? So you are also delusional about you ability to shoot? I think the shooting is about as real as your supposed income.

garhkal
07-20-2015, 07:38 PM
Not even close to being trained when carring weapons mixed in with the pubic, even your own statement about how much training you a have backs that up. Cops barely get enough formal raining In s when to use a weapons and there is no way in help the military can spend the resources to train, and maintain training for all the people we are talking about. I would think the level of training for a Mitary Cop would be about right, certainly not much less than that if any.

Then how often do YOU think we should train? Every 6 months? 4? From speaking with 3 cops here in Colmbus they train on pistols every 6 months, and only once a year on their longarms.


1.if we didn't permit people from cultures with a Stone Age Sharia mentality to emigrate here in the first place, this tradgedy never would've happened..... We freed Kuwait for them at great cost, so why was Muhammad Youssuf Abdulazeez even here? Who paid for his Engineering school at UT?

And what gets me is a good # of these Muslims (and other asylum seekers) routinely go BACK HOME on holiday, all approved by our state department.
If their home country is sufficiently screwed up that they need to flee and seek Asylum from it, then how is it safe to go back to, every year (in some cases)???



6. It takes over a thousand repetitions to create muscle memory. Popping off 80 rounds every 6-12 months is wholly inadequate (unless you grew up in the country). Dry fire is better than No fire. I say we shit-can the Supposed 15,000 trans-genders we're catering to and use that $ savings to buy training Ammo so, that our people can be proficient with their weapons.

As i mentioned above, cops (well here in Cbus) shoot to qual every 6 months on their pistols, and yearly for their rifles.


Rainyday,

My CCWed weapon of choice is a .45 ACP. My back up is much smaller. It is a 5 shot derringer styled .22 mag, with hollow points.

Now i am working steadily again, once i get sufficient funds, i too will get CCW qualified, and once i do, my gun of choice will be a Baretta 9mm. Same as i qualified on for each and every year over the last 12 i served in the Navy. My 2nd of choice is a M1911 .45 ACP.


What is wrong wirth America trying to protect people that were harmed in service to our country? Really, that is a simply pitiful argument that makes you doubt you have even been near a uniform.

But why can't we protect them, while at the same time letting them protect themselves?

Rollyn01
07-20-2015, 08:04 PM
Don't let your mystical power get too intoxicating My Obeah man, .... When we're out and about amongst the English, It's of necessity that we conceal our intentions from the Red Coats..... Like that Chinese guy Sun Tzu says. Nomsayin?

"A good general keeps the most critical parts of his plan to himself" ;)

It's not my fault that I can make magic with the scraps I'm given and I'll get as intoxicated as I want to. Anywho, are we burying the water tank or not? I'm not trying to have these armed nut-cases trying to steal our water or shoot the tank to make us have to come out. "If your enemy draws their water from the lake, secure it. If it cannot be secured, poison it. So that when they are wary from thirst, they can be easily conquered.... Thus, victory is assured."

MitchellJD1969
07-20-2015, 08:42 PM
What is wrong wirth America trying to protect people that were harmed in service to our country? Really, that is a simply pitiful argument that makes you doubt you have even been near a uniform.

Yeah that worked out really well for those in Chattanooga. Where was the government then? All they could do was react after the fact.

Rainmaker
07-20-2015, 09:01 PM
Yeah that worked out really well for those in Chattanooga. Where was the government then? All they could do was react after the fact.

When seconds count the police are only minutes away!

TJMAC77SP
07-20-2015, 09:50 PM
What is wrong wirth America trying to protect people that were harmed in service to our country? Really, that is a simply pitiful argument that makes you doubt you have even been near a uniform.

I assume you meant to say "makes ME doubt you have even been near a uniform."

That seems to be your default response nowadays, throwing out statements doubting the service of long-standing posters on the MTF. Aside from being irrelevant to the points being made (or attempted). It seems that for someone who has had some seemingly valid doubts thrown his way you would be a little more careful with these statements.

Agree or disagree with Flaps.............those who have been around awhile are pretty certain as to the validity of his service claims. Can't say that is a universal truth and in fact a few tall tales (i.e. lies) have been posted here from time to time.

MikeKerriii
07-20-2015, 11:29 PM
I assume you meant to say "makes ME doubt you have even been near a uniform."

That seems to be your default response nowadays, throwing out statements doubting the service of long-standing posters on the MTF. Aside from being irrelevant to the points being made (or attempted). It seems that for someone who has had some seemingly valid doubts thrown his way you would be a little more careful with these statements.

Agree or disagree with Flaps.............those who have been around awhile are pretty certain as to the validity of his service claims. Can't say that is a universal truth and in fact a few tall tales (i.e. lies) have been posted here from time to time.

Have you ever met a vet who was willing to throw away the lives of injured veterans has he was? Most of us who serve show at least a touch of loyalty to our fellows

TJMAC77SP
07-20-2015, 11:35 PM
Have you ever met a vet who was willing to throw away the lives of injured veterans has he was? Most of us who serve show at least a touch of loyalty to our fellows

If you are speaking specifically of the post your quoted you have now (again) stepped into the arena of complete bullshit. His post said no such thing. Intimated no such thing. If that is your assertion that he is " willing to throw away the lives of injured veterans" based on the post quoted then you are either too stupid to understand and comprehend English or completely without any integrity.

If you were speaking of other words Flaps posted, please point out those words and explain why you quoted a post that in no ways proves your assertion instead of those words that (allegedly) do.

As for Flaps military service...I stand by what I said.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
07-21-2015, 12:04 AM
What is wrong wirth America trying to protect people that were harmed in service to our country? Really, that is a simply pitiful argument that makes you doubt you have even been near a uniform.

21 years active, 2 years as a reservist....and you? Nice to know you doubt the service of those who have opposing views.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
07-21-2015, 12:09 AM
What is wrong wirth America trying to protect people that were harmed in service to our country? Really, that is a simply pitiful argument that makes you doubt you have even been near a uniform.

I believe in freedom and liberty, and letting adults decide for themselves as to what level of "protection" they need from the government.

MikeKerriii
07-21-2015, 02:59 AM
Then how often do YOU think we should train? Every 6 months? 4? From speaking with 3 cops here in Colmbus they train on pistols every 6 months, and only once a year on their longarms. And most get a lot of other training on when and when not to shoot, Military training in that area will just get GIs thrown in jail for long periods. The ROE are too different



And what gets me is a good # of these Muslims (and other asylum seekers) routinely go BACK HOME on holiday, all approved by our state department.
If their home country is sufficiently screwed up that they need to flee and seek Asylum from it, then how is it safe to go back to, every year (in some cases)??? What make you think that he claimed asylum? And will that rule apply to all immigrants? You do know that the State department is not allowed to tell people where they can travel without a law specifically banning travel to that place. they have no choice but to approve





As i mentioned above, cops (well here in Cbus) shoot to qual every 6 months on their pistols, and yearly for their rifles. the important training is not in how to shoot but when to shoot. The formers is simple the latter is complex.





Now i am working steadily again, once i get sufficient funds, i too will get CCW qualified, and once i do, my gun of choice will be a Baretta 9mm. Same as i qualified on for each and every year over the last 12 i served in the Navy. My 2nd of choice is a M1911 .45 ACP. I am CCW qualified but don;t carry. I have never been scared enough to have a desire to carry a weapon ion US streets. If i need to defend my home I have a hand-me- down 1897 Winchester Trench Broom and a Springfield Arms M1A. I punch holes in paper with a M1911A1 for fun though another family hand me down that my son will get soon.




But why can't we protect them, while at the same time letting them protect themselves? I think your plan increase the danger to them while providing little real protection otherwise. I am in favor of letting professional military people decide this one not politicians.

MikeKerriii
07-21-2015, 03:05 AM
I believe in freedom and liberty, and letting adults decide for themselves as to what level of "protection" they need from the government. In this case we are talking about military members on duty, in that case the government gets to decide what weapons, if any, they carry

MikeKerriii
07-21-2015, 03:07 AM
21 years active, 2 years as a reservist....and you? Nice to know you doubt the service of those who have opposing views.

You wrote of the lives and worth of fellow service messengers that is not just a different view it is anti-mitary BS. Throwing the wounded to the wolves to score a political point is foul

garhkal
07-21-2015, 04:42 AM
Have you ever met a vet who was willing to throw away the lives of injured veterans has he was? Most of us who serve show at least a touch of loyalty to our fellows

But how is anyone saying they wish to throw away the lives of fellow military, by simply asking for our RIGHTS to bear arms like the General populus does, when at our place of work (Recruitment center in this case).??


In this case we are talking about military members on duty, in that case the government gets to decide what weapons, if any, they carry

And thats what we want changed. Even cops when off duty get to carry their service pistols. So why not us?

hustonj
07-21-2015, 03:57 PM
Even cops when off duty get to carry their service pistols. So why not us?

Off duty cops are, normally, still within the community they support.

Off duty military are not normally still within open war regions.

Cops make enemies with long memories, and sometimes have to deal with vengeful psychopaths looking for specifically them as targets after jail terms. Seriously. This is the entire reason for the LEOSA law. To grant law enforcement officers (active or retired) the opportunity to defend themselves from the bad actors they helped incarcerate previously.

Military members don't make personal enemies. Individual members are normally as insignificant to the enemy as the rank and file members of the enemy are to our members. As a rule, nobody has a vendetta against a specific rank and file soldier, and nobody's hunting him down during his off duty time.

False equivalency.

TJMAC77SP
07-21-2015, 04:24 PM
Off duty cops are, normally, still within the community they support.

Off duty military are not normally still within open war regions.

Cops make enemies with long memories, and sometimes have to deal with vengeful psychopaths looking for specifically them as targets after jail terms. Seriously. This is the entire reason for the LEOSA law. To grant law enforcement officers (active or retired) the opportunity to defend themselves from the bad actors they helped incarcerate previously.

Military members don't make personal enemies. Individual members are normally as insignificant to the enemy as the rank and file members of the enemy are to our members. As a rule, nobody has a vendetta against a specific rank and file soldier, and nobody's hunting him down during his off duty time.

False equivalency.

Until recently, I would agree with you but ISIS (and other Islamic terrorist groups) have changed this. When individual information on service members is published and service members are targeted solely because of their status the paradigm has definitely shifted. Not such a false equivalency today.

SomeRandomGuy
07-21-2015, 04:26 PM
But how is anyone saying they wish to throw away the lives of fellow military, by simply asking for our RIGHTS to bear arms like the General populus does, when at our place of work (Recruitment center in this case).?

Do most members of the general public carry weapons at work? I didn't realize it was so prevalent. They must hide them well because I really haven't seen my waiter carrying a Glock or the bagboy packing a Beretta. Maybe I'm just not that observant though.

Rainmaker
07-21-2015, 04:49 PM
Do most members of the general public carry weapons at work? I didn't realize it was so prevalent. They must hide them well because I really haven't seen my waiter carrying a Glock or the bagboy packing a Beretta. Maybe I'm just not that observant though.

SRG....If you're worried about ISIS Beheading you at the McDonalds, then Do yourself a favor and get a snub nose .38 special. it's practically idiot proof to use and you just throw it a pocket, without having to figure out how to conceal it.

Double action, so you won't accidentally shoot your balls off when you're reaching for your car keys in the dark and if you're worried about only having 5 shots, you can throw a speed loader in your other pocket, and you're good to go.

Now, If "Al-Baghdaddy" do try to Kidnap on you, act like you're going to co-operate and first......But, then jam that snub nose in his fat gut and send him to see 72 Virgins!!!! You don't even got to pull it out your pocket if you don't want to... Highly recommend Snub nose. 38 for your EDC..... may not be all tacti-cool and shit. But if it was good enough for a Gangsta like Al Capone then, it's good enough for Rainmaker, Nomsayin?

http://www.snubnose.info/

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
07-21-2015, 06:06 PM
jam that snub nose in his fat gut and send him to see 72 Virgins!!!!

Off topic, but I never understood the appeal of mating up with 72 virgins, let alone 1 virgin. Seriously, how fun can that possibly be? They don't know how to be slutty in bed. You have to teach them everything too! And by the way, if you try to "experiment" with them, you run the risk of scaring them away. I'd be much more impressed, and likely to become a Muslim myself, if the promise was to be with 72 very horny, experienced hot sluts. Just my take. Now back to the gun thing.

SomeRandomGuy
07-21-2015, 06:22 PM
Off topic, but I never understood the appeal of mating up with 72 virgins, let alone 1 virgin. Seriously, how fun can that possibly be? They don't know how to be slutty in bed. You have to teach them everything too! And by the way, if you try to "experiment" with them, you run the risk of scaring them away. I'd be much more impressed, and likely to become a Muslim myself, if the promise was to be with 72 very horny, experienced hot sluts. Just my take. Now back to the gun thing.

I'm fascinated by the 72 Virgins thing. It raises so many questions. The most obvious is why a man would need 72 virgins in Heaven (Jannah). Also, is this supposed to be the reward for the virgins too? They die virgins on earth and they are sent to Jannah to share one man with 71 other women. That doesn't sound like paradise at all. What about if a woman wants to engage in Jihad what does she get? Does she get 72 Male Virgins?

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
07-21-2015, 06:34 PM
I'm fascinated by the 72 Virgins thing. It raises so many questions. The most obvious is why a man would need 72 virgins in Heaven (Jannah). Also, is this supposed to be the reward for the virgins too? They die virgins on earth and they are sent to Jannah to share one man with 71 other women. That doesn't sound like paradise at all. What about if a woman wants to engage in Jihad what does she get? Does she get 72 Male Virgins?

Hmmm...good questions. I'm guessing a woman's punishment for never marrying (non-marital sex is illegal) is becoming one of those virgins, then suffering severe bouts of jeolousy (I'm assuming) for eternity while the former jihad dude lays pipe on 71 other women (they are women, I hope). Here's another question though. Are all 72 virgins even attractive, and if not, then what? I just don't know!

Absinthe Anecdote
07-21-2015, 06:36 PM
SRG....If you're worried about ISIS Beheading you at the McDonalds, then Do yourself a favor and get a snub nose .38 special. it's practically idiot proof to use and you just throw it a pocket, without having to figure out how to conceal it.

Double action, so you won't accidentally shoot your balls off when you're reaching for your car keys in the dark and if you're worried about only having 5 shots, you can throw a speed loader in your other pocket, and you're good to go.

Now, If "Al-Baghdaddy" do try to Kidnap on you, act like you're going to co-operate and first......But, then jam that snub nose in his fat gut and send him to see 72 Virgins!!!! You don't even got to pull it out your pocket if you don't want to... Highly recommend Snub nose. 38 for your EDC..... may not be all tacti-cool and shit. But if it was good enough for a Gangsta like Al Capone then, it's good enough for Rainmaker, Nomsayin?

http://www.snubnose.info/

You don't know jack shit about carrying a gun in your pocket.

It should still be in a pocket holster, the trigger guard needs to be covered and there shouldn't be anything else in the pocket either. It should be a gun only pocket.

As far as shooting a would be assailant in the gut with a .38, well, that is also dumb advice to be handing out.

You sound like the typical gun advocate that thinks firearms are magical. They won't automatically make bad guys disappear.

Unless you take your decision to carry very seriously and practice your draw on a regular basis and truly learn to master your weapon, they don't increase your safety very much.

As a matter of fact, if you "just throw a .38 in your pocket" as you suggested, you are putting yourself at greater risk.

If your real-life persona is anything like the loudmouth braggart who posts all this crazy shit in here, you wouldn't even be able to conceal a weapon.

Why?

You'd always be touching the fucking thing for reassurance. I strongly suspect you'd also be the type to let the gun go to your head and start mouthing off to people.

I've seen countless jackasses like you over at DHS.

garhkal
07-21-2015, 06:58 PM
Until recently, I would agree with you but ISIS (and other Islamic terrorist groups) have changed this. When individual information on service members is published and service members are targeted solely because of their status the paradigm has definitely shifted. Not such a false equivalency today.

That's what i was going to say. When you have cretins like ISIS posting bounties on service men and women's heads, and in some cases also their families, all cause that mil person was part of an op that 'targeted a ISIS higher up', then we are under the gun no matter where we are. So like cops, should be allowed to remain armed.


Do most members of the general public carry weapons at work? I didn't realize it was so prevalent. They must hide them well because I really haven't seen my waiter carrying a Glock or the bagboy packing a Beretta. Maybe I'm just not that observant though.

Not that i have seen, but that is the point of CCW isn't it.?
And unless they are at those workplaces that are "Gun free zones" they CAN if they wish carry there. So why not recruiters?


I'm fascinated by the 72 Virgins thing. It raises so many questions. The most obvious is why a man would need 72 virgins in Heaven (Jannah). Also, is this supposed to be the reward for the virgins too? They die virgins on earth and they are sent to Jannah to share one man with 71 other women. That doesn't sound like paradise at all. What about if a woman wants to engage in Jihad what does she get? Does she get 72 Male Virgins?

Plus "Heaven" (or what ever Allah calls the afterlife) must be loaded to the brim with virgins, if each and every martyr gets 72 of them.

Rainmaker
07-21-2015, 07:11 PM
I've seen countless jackasses like you over at DHS.

Molon labe, Bitches.

Bos Mutus
07-21-2015, 07:22 PM
I'm fascinated by the 72 Virgins thing. It raises so many questions. The most obvious is why a man would need 72 virgins in Heaven (Jannah). Also, is this supposed to be the reward for the virgins too? They die virgins on earth and they are sent to Jannah to share one man with 71 other women. That doesn't sound like paradise at all. What about if a woman wants to engage in Jihad what does she get? Does she get 72 Male Virgins?


Off topic, but I never understood the appeal of mating up with 72 virgins, let alone 1 virgin. Seriously, how fun can that possibly be? They don't know how to be slutty in bed. You have to teach them everything too! And by the way, if you try to "experiment" with them, you run the risk of scaring them away. I'd be much more impressed, and likely to become a Muslim myself, if the promise was to be with 72 very horny, experienced hot sluts. Just my take. Now back to the gun thing.


Hmmm...good questions. I'm guessing a woman's punishment for never marrying (non-marital sex is illegal) is becoming one of those virgins, then suffering severe bouts of jeolousy (I'm assuming) for eternity while the former jihad dude lays pipe on 71 other women (they are women, I hope). Here's another question though. Are all 72 virgins even attractive, and if not, then what? I just don't know!

All 1 billion Muslims get the same 72 virgins...

...and they stay virgins.

It's in the fine print.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-21-2015, 07:48 PM
All 1 billion Muslims get the same 72 virgins...

...and they stay virgins.

It's in the fine print.

It is ridiculous that many people actually believe in Islam's fairy tales, isn't it?

Christianity's heaven of golden mansions and having to sing and praise God as part of a celestial choir for eternity is just as dumb.

Whoops, I guess shouldn't point out the obvious.

MitchellJD1969
07-21-2015, 09:21 PM
It is ridiculous that many people actually believe in Islam's fairy tales, isn't it?

Christianity's heaven of golden mansions and having to sing and praise God as part of a celestial choir for eternity is just as dumb.

Whoops, I guess shouldn't point out the obvious.

Whats obvious that lacking a higher power everthing is pretty much pointless. You live, you die, no right, no wrong because death is the only endstate of our existance. Everything becomes relative with all points of view valid and justifiable.

Bos Mutus
07-21-2015, 09:55 PM
Whats obvious that lacking a higher power everthing is pretty much pointless.

Then what is the "point" beyond that?

Life is much more meaningful and purposeful once you realize you get one shot and it's short...to have an impact on the ones you love and that love you...and leave your legacy with them.

Your idea that eternal life makes it more meaningful contradicts the law of scarcity.

If true eternal life exists in some other magical place after this brief stint on earth...then this stint on earth is truly meaningless in comparison...and once you enter that eternal life, it would also seem quite meaningless in its abundance.


You live, you die, no right, no wrong because death is the only endstate of our existance.

You appear to have a very selfish viewpoint on life...that's it's all about you living forever and that is your interest in doing right from wrong...moral beings call that selfish or transparent morality...and you only know right from wrong because a higher power had to tell you?

None of that sounds very redeeming to me.


Everything becomes relative with all points of view valid and justifiable.

Not true at all. We can believe in morality without believing in God. We can be concerned with the well-being of our fellow man without being motivated solely by our own selfish interest in everlasting life.

Imagine doing something good for your fellow man even if God wasn't watching? Imagine alleviating some suffering just for the sake of it's own merit...to me, that's a higher morality than doing it because you believe you will be rewarded for it later.

I find your selfish life view to be uninspiring.

MikeKerriii
07-21-2015, 10:56 PM
Whats obvious that lacking a higher power everthing is pretty much pointless. You live, you die, no right, no wrong because death is the only endstate of our existance. Everything becomes relative with all points of view valid and justifiable.

That is true only if you need a invisible friend to give your life meaning. I for one don't

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
07-21-2015, 11:18 PM
That is true only if you need a invisible friend to give your life meaning. I for one don't

So you believe that the existence of human beings just happened by chance? It's just dumb luck, right? That I think is just plain ridiculous.

MikeKerriii
07-21-2015, 11:22 PM
So you believe that the existence of human beings just happened by chance? It's just dumb luck, right? That I think is just plain ridiculous.

You think it is ridiculous? I consider that an endorsement of my logic. Now do you have any actual non-debunked facts to present?

Bos Mutus
07-21-2015, 11:28 PM
So you believe that the existence of human beings just happened by chance? It's just dumb luck, right? That I think is just plain ridiculous.

If you must have an answer as to how human beings "happened"

How, then, did God happen?

I don't speak for Mikekerriii or any other atheist...but for me, the answer to the creation of the universe is, "I don't really know"...

I've had many Christians use the complexity argument...you know, that the earth and universe and life are all so complex and so perfect that it is inconceivable that they do not have an intelligent creator.

To me, that leaves a dead end though...because to follow that logic...that is, that anything complex must have an intelligent creator....the creator must be more complex than the creation...so therefore, where did the creator come from?

This is where the "ridiculousness" argument runs out...and it eventually ends up to "it's a mystery" or "He just always was"...neither answer follows the logic that you insist on in the existence of human beings.

MikeKerriii
07-21-2015, 11:32 PM
But how is anyone saying they wish to throw away the lives of fellow military, by simply asking for our RIGHTS to bear arms like the General populus does, when at our place of work (Recruitment center in this case).?? Military people don't have that right, just like they don't have the right to petitsion as a group or speak freely as military members. Your rights become somewhat restricted when you put I a uniform, as was explained to you in basic training,




And thats what we want changed. Even cops when off duty get to carry their service pistols. So why not us? Becasu almost nobody outside of military cops as well trained as the average cop in when shooting is justifiable or not buy civilian standards , and the firearms training military folks get is based on different ROE.

MikeKerriii
07-21-2015, 11:43 PM
Not that i have seen, but that is the point of CCW isn't it.?
And unless they are at those workplaces that are "Gun free zones" they CAN if they wish carry there. So why not recruiters?
.They can only CC at work if the employers allows it, How many employers want to risk that amount of liability? Ive worked for a Bank, phone companies and multiple defense contractors and never seem a work environment where caring a pistol to work would not result in instant termination of contract.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
07-22-2015, 12:26 AM
If you must have an answer as to how human beings "happened"

How, then, did God happen?

I don't speak for Mikekerriii or any other atheist...but for me, the answer to the creation of the universe is, "I don't really know"...

I've had many Christians use the complexity argument...you know, that the earth and universe and life are all so complex and so perfect that it is inconceivable that they do not have an intelligent creator.

To me, that leaves a dead end though...because to follow that logic...that is, that anything complex must have an intelligent creator....the creator must be more complex than the creation...so therefore, where did the creator come from?

This is where the "ridiculousness" argument runs out...and it eventually ends up to "it's a mystery" or "He just always was"...neither answer follows the logic that you insist on in the existence of human beings.

I'm not a Christian, but I do have faith. The fact that I think it's ridiculous to think we exist without a higher power is just my opinion. I can't prove I'm right just like uou can't prove I'm wrong. It simply comes down to faith.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
07-22-2015, 12:28 AM
They can only CC at work if the employers allows it, How many employers want to risk that amount of liability? Ive worked for a Bank, phone companies and multiple defense contractors and never seem a work environment where caring a pistol to work would not result in instant termination of contract.

If you could go back in time and arm those Marines minutes before they were attacked, would you?

Absinthe Anecdote
07-22-2015, 01:15 AM
I'm not a Christian, but I do have faith. The fact that I think it's ridiculous to think we exist without a higher power is just my opinion. I can't prove I'm right just like uou can't prove I'm wrong. It simply comes down to faith.

There is a lot more to it than having faith in order to believe. You also have to ignore very strong evidence that all the other gods and superstitions created by primitive men were wrong, except for some this one nebulous entity called a "higher power".

You also have to ignore a total lack of evidence any supernatural force or phenomena. Ghosts aren't real, talking to dead relatives isn't real.

I usually only hear the term higher power used in Alcolics Anonymous meetings, but it is usually the Christian God that is being referenced in that particular venue.

They use "higher power" as a courtesy for alcoholic non-believers, then typically end the meeting with the Lord's Prayer.

Don't know how you are using the term "higher power" but it implies a deity of some type.

Deities are pretty obvious fictional characters.

A lack of knowledge about our existence is no reason to attribute it to a deity.

MikeKerriii
07-22-2015, 02:04 AM
If you could go back in time and arm those Marines minutes before they were attacked, would you?

Of course with perfect hindsight I would, that still doesn't mean that arming recruiters in general is anything but a a bad idea

Bos Mutus
07-22-2015, 02:41 AM
I'm not a Christian, but I do have faith. The fact that I think it's ridiculous to think we exist without a higher power is just my opinion. I can't prove I'm right just like uou can't prove I'm wrong. It simply comes down to faith.

Why is it ridiculous to think we came about without a higher power, but not equally ridiculous to think the higher power came about without an even higher power? Especially when you acknowledge that your opinion is based on faith.

What is ridiculous about not having that same faith you have? Do you ponder how God came about?

garhkal
07-22-2015, 03:04 AM
Not true at all. We can believe in morality without believing in God. We can be concerned with the well-being of our fellow man without being motivated solely by our own selfish interest in everlasting life.

Imagine doing something good for your fellow man even if God wasn't watching? Imagine alleviating some suffering just for the sake of it's own merit...to me, that's a higher morality than doing it because you believe you will be rewarded for it later.

I find your selfish life view to be uninspiring.


Well said. I know plenty of fellow Agnostics/Atheists who do as much good for their 'fellow man' as church goers do.


Military people don't have that right, just like they don't have the right to petitsion as a group or speak freely as military members. Your rights become somewhat restricted when you put I a uniform, as was explained to you in basic training,


Becasu almost nobody outside of military cops as well trained as the average cop in when shooting is justifiable or not buy civilian standards , and the firearms training military folks get is based on different ROE.

True, we do give up certain rights (like the right to peacefully assemble) when in uniform, but we do NOT give up our right to carry when off base.
And as to the firearm training aspect, i spoke to 2 local sheriffs when i got off post last night, and they said they only need to requalify ONCE a year, though they get to pick from 4 or 5 range dates to do said re-qual.
Which is the same amt of time mil folk get (well navy at least).

Absinthe Anecdote
07-22-2015, 03:12 AM
Why is it ridiculous to think we came about without a higher power, but not equally ridiculous to think the higher power came about without an even higher power? Especially when you acknowledge that your opinion is based on faith.

What is ridiculous about not having that same faith you have? Do you ponder how God came about?

Excellent point!

Not unlike those who believe that a concept of right and wrong are only possible because of a higher power.

Does the higher power like something because it is right, or is it right because the higher power says so?

The universe becomes a nonsensical place when you put a God in it. Especially a God that hides from us and only chooses to communicate through myths, legends, and ancient writings.

MikeKerriii
07-22-2015, 03:17 AM
True, we do give up certain rights (like the right to peacefully assemble) when in uniform, but we do NOT give up our right to carry when off base.
And as to the firearm training aspect, i spoke to 2 local sheriffs when i got off post last night, and they said they only need to requalify ONCE a year, though they get to pick from 4 or 5 range dates to do said re-qual.
Which is the same amt of time mil folk get (well navy at least). we give up those rights when we are on duty where the duty is occurring is not relevant

And you are still talking about shooting skill not the skill in deciding when and if to shoot, You can teach a moron how to shoot, when to shoot is trickier.

TJMAC77SP
07-22-2015, 10:06 AM
You don't know jack shit about carrying a gun in your pocket.

It should still be in a pocket holster, the trigger guard needs to be covered and there shouldn't be anything else in the pocket either. It should be a gun only pocket.

As far as shooting a would be assailant in the gut with a .38, well, that is also dumb advice to be handing out.

You sound like the typical gun advocate that thinks firearms are magical. They won't automatically make bad guys disappear.

Unless you take your decision to carry very seriously and practice your draw on a regular basis and truly learn to master your weapon, they don't increase your safety very much.

As a matter of fact, if you "just throw a .38 in your pocket" as you suggested, you are putting yourself at greater risk.

If your real-life persona is anything like the loudmouth braggart who posts all this crazy shit in here, you wouldn't even be able to conceal a weapon.

Why?

You'd always be touching the fucking thing for reassurance. I strongly suspect you'd also be the type to let the gun go to your head and start mouthing off to people.

I've seen countless jackasses like you over at DHS.

I am sure you realize this but he Bruwined you. Surprised you took the hook

TJMAC77SP
07-22-2015, 10:08 AM
All 1 billion Muslims get the same 72 virgins...

...and they stay virgins.

It's in the fine print.

That is one major case of Blue Balls.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-22-2015, 12:26 PM
I am sure you realize this but he Bruwined you. Surprised you took the hook

No, he didn't hook me with that comment about how to pocket carry a firearm. I'm pretty sure he isn't even aware that pocket carry is a method that has advantages in some scenarios and disadvantages in others.


If you are looking for a prime example of a hungry fishy gobbling up bait, look a few post down where you came out of nowhere at the mention of your name.

That is classic trolling.

waveshaper2
07-22-2015, 12:53 PM
Navy officer, Marine fought to take out Chattanooga gunman.

Leadership; Sometime you gotta do what you gotta do.
Note; I didn't include link to article because it contains "Names".

Excerpt; A Navy officer and a Marine fired their sidearms hoping to kill or subdue the gunman who murdered five service members last week in Chattanooga, Tennessee, according to multiple military officials familiar with internal reporting on the tragedy.

It's also unclear why they were armed, as it is against Defense Department policy for anyone other than military police or law enforcement to carry weapons on federal property.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
07-22-2015, 01:08 PM
Navy officer, Marine fought to take out Chattanooga gunman.

Leadership; Sometime you gotta do what you gotta do.
Note; I didn't include link to article because it contains "Names".

Excerpt; A Navy officer and a Marine fired their sidearms hoping to kill or subdue the gunman who murdered five service members last week in Chattanooga, Tennessee, according to multiple military officials familiar with internal reporting on the tragedy.

It's also unclear why they were armed, as it is against Defense Department policy for anyone other than military police or law enforcement to carry weapons on federal property.

I wonder how they treat recruiting offices, since most, if not all of them are leased, but not actual Federal property? Probably some mention of leased properties, but maybe not.

waveshaper2
07-22-2015, 01:30 PM
I wonder how they treat recruiting offices, since most, if not all of them are leased, but not actual Federal property? Probably some mention of leased properties, but maybe not.

Now that's a good question. I'll bet it's a very complicated issue and I dang sure don't know the answer.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-22-2015, 01:39 PM
I've worked in DOD leased office buildings near the Pentagon before. Same security standards and prohibitions against carrying firearms into them as on any base.

waveshaper2
07-22-2015, 02:31 PM
Military Recruiter in the near future will probably look something like this;

http://i.imgur.com/vYnPBQU.gif

Rainmaker
07-22-2015, 03:15 PM
No, he didn't hook me with that comment about how to pocket carry a firearm. I'm pretty sure he isn't even aware that pocket carry is a method that has advantages in some scenarios and disadvantages in others.


Pocket Holster? Hahaha.... The Pocket IS your Holster. That's the whole Point of Pocket Carry of a snub nosed revolver. Holsters are for your belt not your pocket doofus.......Do, You think a Gangster like Al Capone would ever use a pocket Holster cause, he was worried about his 'safety'?

You Probably also wear a disco belt when you go outside your house at night, wear gloves when you lift weights, so you don't get calloused hands and Sit down to take a Piss....

Tell you what Cowboy. As a service to my DHS Brother in Arms . Rainmaker'll save you the trouble of having to spend hours over-analyzing your TTPs on concealed pocket carry of a snubby....

Here's the simple to follow instructions for taking down AL Baghdadi (cough cough) when tries to kidnap you at the mall.

1. Reach in to your Pocket.
2. Grip Handle
3. Draw
4. Aim (Point)
5. Fire

See? So easy even a tenured Civil Servant can do it!

hustonj
07-22-2015, 03:17 PM
I wonder how they treat recruiting offices, since most, if not all of them are leased, but not actual Federal property? Probably some mention of leased properties, but maybe not.

Uh . . ..

Most, if not all, military installations are leased and not truly Federal property. I think you're over-thinking the issue.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-22-2015, 03:51 PM
Pocket Holster? Hahaha.... The Pocket IS your Holster. That's the whole Point of Pocket Carry of a snub nosed revolver. Holsters are for your belt not your pocket doofus.......

Thanks for proving that you don't know what you are talking about.

Part of the idea of a pocket holster is not only to protect the trigger guard, but to conceal the outline of the weapon.

The pocket holster also helps facilitate a smoother draw from inside the pocket by keeping the weapon in the same position and eliminating the chance of it snagging on the lining of your pocket.

Google is your friend, go educate yourself. Or go back to your loudmouth talk about Al Capone and how much of a badass you are, it is much more amusing than your Jews are ruining our country narrative.

MikeKerriii
07-22-2015, 03:53 PM
Pocket Holster? Hahaha.... The Pocket IS your Holster. That's the whole Point of Pocket Carry of a snub nosed revolver. Holsters are for your belt not your pocket doofus.......Do, You think a Gangster like Al Capone would ever use a pocket Holster cause, he was worried about his 'safety'?

You Probably also wear a disco belt when you go outside your house at night, wear gloves when you lift weights, so you don't get calloused hands and Sit down to take a Piss....

Tell you what Cowboy. As a service to my DHS Brother in Arms . Rainmaker'll save you the trouble of having to spend hours over-analyzing your TTPs on concealed pocket carry of a snubby....

Here's the simple to follow instructions for taking down AL Baghdadi (cough cough) when tries to kidnap you at the mall.

1. Reach in to your Pocket.
2. Grip Handle
3. Draw
4. Aim (Point)
5. Fire

See? So easy even a tenured Civil Servant can do it!

A pistol in the pocket isia great way to perform a self induced involuntary sex change or to get killed when it hangs up on the fabric.

Rainmaker
07-22-2015, 04:13 PM
A pistol in the pocket isia great way to perform a self induced involuntary sex change or to get killed when it hangs up on the fabric.

Maybe, if you're one of those Hipster Homos wearing Girl jeans or some ghetto wanna be thug with you're pants hanging off your ass.....The key here is to get some pants that actually fit.

MikeKerriii
07-22-2015, 04:24 PM
Maybe, if you're one of those Hipster Homos wearing Girl jeans or some ghetto wanna be thug with you're pants hanging off your ass.....The key here is to get some pants that actually fit.

Or like the sane among us have pants with fabric lined pockets. That was not even a good troll

Rainmaker
07-22-2015, 04:30 PM
Thanks for proving that you don't know what you are talking about.

Part of the idea of a pocket holster is not only to protect the trigger guard, but to conceal the outline of the weapon.

The pocket holster also helps facilitate a smoother draw from inside the pocket by keeping the weapon in the same position and eliminating the chance of it snagging on the lining of your pocket.



Which is why Rainmaker always keeps a wad of Benjamins in the same pocket to prevent it from moving around and keep any lint out of the Cylinder.

Pulling the double shift tonight? When does Bos Mutus come back on?

Rainmaker
07-22-2015, 04:37 PM
Or like the sane among us have pants with fabric lined pockets. That was not even a good troll

It's really not that hard for most people...... But, Rainmaker wouldn't recommend it for you "Mike".

Because, Even with the Double Action Trigger, That Mechanical hand could cause you some problems....

Rainmaker
07-22-2015, 04:53 PM
Military Recruiter in the near future will probably look something like this;

http://i.imgur.com/vYnPBQU.gif

Probably, Except that doll is not diverse enough.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
07-22-2015, 05:24 PM
Uh . . ..

Most, if not all, military installations are leased and not truly Federal property. I think you're over-thinking the issue.

Not really over thinking anything. Just curious, so I mentioned it.

TJMAC77SP
07-22-2015, 08:35 PM
No, he didn't hook me with that comment about how to pocket carry a firearm. I'm pretty sure he isn't even aware that pocket carry is a method that has advantages in some scenarios and disadvantages in others.


If you are looking for a prime example of a hungry fishy gobbling up bait, look a few post down where you came out of nowhere at the mention of your name.

That is classic trolling.

Aw, don't worry we all swallow the hook at times.

Can you explain how when my name is mentioned and I post to correct a flagrantly false post that is trolling? I am again confused.

BTW, please don't pretend that mentioning SJ and me wasn't an attempt to draw us into one your incessant and petty anti-Christian threads. I suppose in this case it worked but please at least have some intellectual honesty in posting.

garhkal
07-23-2015, 05:55 AM
Navy officer, Marine fought to take out Chattanooga gunman.

Leadership; Sometime you gotta do what you gotta do.
Note; I didn't include link to article because it contains "Names".

Excerpt; A Navy officer and a Marine fired their sidearms hoping to kill or subdue the gunman who murdered five service members last week in Chattanooga, Tennessee, according to multiple military officials familiar with internal reporting on the tragedy.

It's also unclear why they were armed, as it is against Defense Department policy for anyone other than military police or law enforcement to carry weapons on federal property.

So since these 2 brave souls carried and used them (ineffectively it sounds like) will they get punished for carrying on Fed property?

Mjölnir
07-23-2015, 06:42 AM
So since these 2 brave souls carried and used them (ineffectively it sounds like) will they get punished for carrying on Fed property?

Could they? Sure.

Will they? Very unlikely ... the PR disaster on that would not be a juice worth the squeeze.

MikeKerriii
07-23-2015, 06:51 AM
So since these 2 brave souls carried and used them (ineffectively it sounds like) will they get punished for carrying on Fed property?

You are assuming that they are even alive. But if so their will probably be a pro-forma punishment at best, one that will shortly disappear. they can't punish them for a heroic act but they can't completely ignore a direct violation of orders.

garhkal
07-23-2015, 08:54 AM
Could they? Sure.

Will they? Very unlikely ... the PR disaster on that would not be a juice worth the squeeze.

That all depends on how they do the punishment.

Mjölnir
07-23-2015, 08:59 AM
That all depends on how they do the punishment.

IMO, in the day and age of the 'Angry Veteran on Facebook', any adjudication on this would cause the services embarrassment. If they were called to NJP and everything dismissed ... no harm no foul; beyond that there will be a significant social media fiasco that I see a PAO telling the adjudicating authority "call him in the office (one who returned fire was killed), tell him (privately) they shouldn't have done that. Thank him for his quick thinking and reaction and send him on his way."

MikeKerriii
07-23-2015, 05:43 PM
IMO, in the day and age of the 'Angry Veteran on Facebook', any adjudication on this would cause the services embarrassment. If they were called to NJP and everything dismissed ... no harm no foul; beyond that there will be a significant social media fiasco that I see a PAO telling the adjudicating authority "call him in the office (one who returned fire was killed), tell him (privately) they shouldn't have done that. Thank him for his quick thinking and reaction and send him on his way."

that sounds top be about the proper level of "punishment"

MitchellJD1969
07-23-2015, 07:42 PM
Then what is the "point" beyond that?

Life is much more meaningful and purposeful once you realize you get one shot and it's short...to have an impact on the ones you love and that love you...and leave your legacy with them.

Your idea that eternal life makes it more meaningful contradicts the law of scarcity.

If true eternal life exists in some other magical place after this brief stint on earth...then this stint on earth is truly meaningless in comparison...and once you enter that eternal life, it would also seem quite meaningless in its abundance.



You appear to have a very selfish viewpoint on life...that's it's all about you living forever and that is your interest in doing right from wrong...moral beings call that selfish or transparent morality...and you only know right from wrong because a higher power had to tell you?

None of that sounds very redeeming to me.



Not true at all. We can believe in morality without believing in God. We can be concerned with the well-being of our fellow man without being motivated solely by our own selfish interest in everlasting life.

Imagine doing something good for your fellow man even if God wasn't watching? Imagine alleviating some suffering just for the sake of it's own merit...to me, that's a higher morality than doing it because you believe you will be rewarded for it later.

I find your selfish life view to be uninspiring.

Whether their is a higher power or not doesnt matter...everything is relative. What you call good can be evil to another or vice versa and from their point of view they are right.

If you consider me selfish...what makes you right? From your point of view maybe...but how can you prove that that view is morally superior? Just because you said so? Laws made by man? What is it? Where does your authority in moral matters come from? And why should anyone submit to that morality?

Full disclosure here...Im agnostic cause I do not discount the possibilty of a higher power. I use the same logic as the atheist...maybe you cant prove gods/god exists but you sure as hell cant disapprove it either.

MitchellJD1969
07-23-2015, 08:15 PM
That is true only if you need a invisible friend to give your life meaning. I for one don't

What makes you right?

Bos Mutus
07-23-2015, 09:36 PM
Whether their is a higher power or not doesnt matter...everything is relative. What you call good can be evil to another or vice versa and from their point of view they are right.

In some respects, I don't disagree.

Is there "moral superiority" in treating a rape victim as a victim, providing support and medical treatment...vs. treating her as damaged goods that bring shame upon the family and should be "honor killed"...

Of course, there are well-intentioned individuals differ on that point. Of course the moral sphere I'm accustomed to seems "superior" to the other, to me. But, it is my perspective and that of our society, I suppose.


If you consider me selfish...what makes you right? From your point of view maybe...but how can you prove that that view is morally superior?

I'm not sure one can "prove" one morality to be superior to another and I'm not sure I claimed any. I like to think that as we experience life and learn things that we advance rather than regress...advance toward what, I dunno.

This is an interesting question that has me thinking...when a parent tells a child to behave a certain way, is the parent "right" morally?...Is what the child wants better from his/her perspective? In general, I think what the parent wants for the child would be in his/her best interests in the long run...helping them achieve a higher existence...of course, the child is unable to perceive that long term best interest...but, again, that's relative too...and depends on what the future holds as well.

I do think we can learn and change that as we grow, physically, intellectually, emotionally...some might say, spiritually....some of us even endeavor to achieve what we think is a higher level out there.

What gives an older person, generally, more wisdom? Life experiences, learning, having seen and done...I like to think all of this, if taken on, brings a person to a higher level of wisdom and understanding...higher from where and to where is it approaching is a good question that I don't have an immediate answer for.


Just because you said so? Laws made by man? What is it? Where does your authority in moral matters come from? And why should anyone submit to that morality?

In some respects, a certain "moral law" probably evolved with mankind...much a like a person gets older and presumably wiser, humankind I think has advanced technologically, intellectually and hopefully, morally to a "more civilized" state.

Was it always wrong to murder? Did that "moral law" evolve as a necessity for humankind to survive? I think most people agree that classic murder is morally wrong...how did we come to that conclusion? Are there people out there that think murder isn't wrong? Can I claim any superiority over them and do I want to?

I'm fairly certain that people didn't think it was just fine and dandy to murder people until Moses brought down the 10 Commandments and then they said, "Oh, wow, hey, that's a good idea, God...we'd never have thought about not killing each other".... No, murder was "wrong" by society standards long before the 10 commandments came around...where did it come from?

Probably the same place that tells Salmon to swim upstream to spawn or newly born sea turtles to head toward the water. Do we really know where these instincts came from? As part of evolution, maybe? The turtles that didn't head to the ocean die...but a baby turtle doesn't know that, he only has a idea to head to the water. Is the turtle that heads toward the water more "right" than one that heads away from it? Only if you consider increasing the odds of personal/family survival a good thing...maybe that turtle heading away from the water had a higher purpose.

But as higher functioning intelligent beings, ours are a bit more complex than basic survival at this point.


Full disclosure here...Im agnostic cause I do not discount the possibilty of a higher power. I use the same logic as the atheist...maybe you cant prove gods/god exists but you sure as hell cant disapprove it either.

I'm a bit of an agnostic myself...though generally feel more atheistic in that I don't think there is a personal God that is watching over us, hearing our prayers, etc. For the most part, I think how and why we exist is unknowable. I realize there are limitations to our own perspective and dimensions that might prevent us from perceiving a whole different banana out there...like an ant walking around a basketball...can walk around and around a seemingly unending path, but think that's all there is.

I'm not so arrogant as to think I have the universe figured out...not even close. My lack of belief in God does not come from my inability to imagine something greater than myself, as is the common strawman put out there by believers. Quite the contrary, in fact. When I ponder the size of time and space, I can't imagine anything capable of all of that could possibly have a cognizant interest in the Yankees game...we're all so extremely insignificant in the grand scheme of things it's pretty much incomprehensible to me.

So, I don't claim moral superiority, cuz there is a lot I don't know. I can only share my perspective of it...I have sort of ruled out the ancient Greek Gods of Mythology, though...in addition to a few others. I could be wrong, but I just find them hard to believe in, even though our current society got many great ideas from the Greeks.

Bos Mutus
07-23-2015, 10:17 PM
^ zionist troll alert


http://forums.militarytimes.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=104&stc=1

Rainmaker
07-23-2015, 10:21 PM
http://forums.militarytimes.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=104&stc=1

Last time Rainmaker stayed at the Trump Plaza Hotel In Atlantic City, He noticed that the Bathrobes in the Closet were making the Masonic "Hand in Coat Gesture"....NomSayin?

MikeKerriii
07-23-2015, 10:23 PM
What makes you right? I don't need magic to justify my views, that means that I am more likely to be right.
I know I don't need an invisible friend to justify my existence, that is a simple statement of fact since I exist and have no invisible friends. You might need an invisible friend but that is your business.

Rainmaker
07-23-2015, 10:27 PM
I don't need magic to justify my views, that means that I am more likely to be right.
I know I don't need an invisible friend to justify my existence, that is a simple statement of fact since I exist and have no invisible friends. You might need an invisible friend but that is your business.

If your real persona is anything like your forum persona, then Rainmaker'd be wagering that not only do you have no invisible friends, you most likely have no visible ones either.

MikeKerriii
07-23-2015, 11:28 PM
If your real persona is anything like your forum persona, then Rainmaker'd be wagering that not only do you have no invisible friends, you most likely have no visible ones either.

Poor sad troll

MikeKerriii
07-24-2015, 12:10 AM
And now the clowns join the party.

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/07/armed-civilian-guarding-ohio-army-recruitment-center-accidentally-fires-weapon/comments/

TJMAC77SP
07-24-2015, 02:11 PM
Poor sad troll

I am kinda curious how you think characterizing someone's belief system as 'magic' and having an 'invisible friend' isn't trolling but Rainmaker's missives are?

I for one at least see more humor in RM's stuff.

waveshaper2
07-24-2015, 02:19 PM
And now the clowns join the party.

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/07/armed-civilian-guarding-ohio-army-recruitment-center-accidentally-fires-weapon/comments/

I say this calls for action now and "nip it in the bud".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wBcaQpyIHU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mj6B4DtNyM

MikeKerriii
07-24-2015, 02:48 PM
I am kinda curious how you think characterizing someone's belief system as 'magic' and having an 'invisible friend' isn't trolling but Rainmaker's missives are?

I for one at least see more humor in RM's stuff.

Look up the definition of the word magic and that will explain why the word applies to religions

Invisible friend works becasue there is no evidence of god and that is about as invisible as you can get.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
07-24-2015, 02:50 PM
Invisible friend works becasue there is no evidence of god and that is about as invisible as you can get.

Is there evidence that there isn't a God or some sort of higher power?

TJMAC77SP
07-24-2015, 02:57 PM
Look up the definition of the word magic and that will explain why the word applies to religions

Invisible friend works becasue there is no evidence of god and that is about as invisible as you can get.

Not even an honest troll. You chose your words for maximum insult which of course means you have absolutely no desire to engage in any discussion and thus are trolling.

At least RM does what he does with imagination and intelligence, you however......................

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
07-24-2015, 03:55 PM
Our recruiters were told to stop supporting the armed militia members who are guarding the offices, and instead just simply call the police if an armed assailant tries to come in to shoot them. See, problem solved. Just call the police and they will arrive within the seconds needed to save your life.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2015/07/23/marine-recruiters-told-call-cops-if-armed-citizens-show-up/30583421/

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
07-24-2015, 04:03 PM
Not even an honest troll. You chose your words for maximum insult which of course means you have absolutely no desire to engage in any discussion and thus are trolling.

At least RM does what he does with imagination and intelligence, you however......................

He obviously has no respect for his fellow MTF posters, since he wants to make his attacks personal. That makes him, you guessed it...an A**hole

Bos Mutus
07-24-2015, 04:15 PM
Our recruiters were told to stop supporting the armed militia members who are guarding the offices, and instead just simply call the police if an armed assailant tries to come in to shoot them. See, problem solved. Just call the police and they will arrive within the seconds needed to save your life.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2015/07/23/marine-recruiters-told-call-cops-if-armed-citizens-show-up/30583421/

You either misread or intentionally misquoted the article.

The recruiters were told to call the police if these armed civilians showed up to "protect them."

Bottom line is having these guys standing outside is bad for business.

A friend of mine's son is a recruiter in Texas and some locals show up with AR-15s...he called his boss to inform him and they just told him to lock up and go home.

TJMAC77SP
07-24-2015, 05:38 PM
You either misread or intentionally misquoted the article.

The recruiters were told to call the police if these armed civilians showed up to "protect them."

Bottom line is having these guys standing outside is bad for business.

A friend of mine's son is a recruiter in Texas and some locals show up with AR-15s...he called his boss to inform him and they just told him to lock up and go home.

While I had an emotional (and therefore not 100% rational) positive reaction to the news of citizens 'protecting' recruiting offices, that quickly gave way to reason and overall I think it is a bad idea.

The citizenry is attempting to send a message and while I applaud the message I can't agree with the execution

MikeKerriii
07-24-2015, 05:52 PM
Is there evidence that there isn't a God or some sort of higher power?

You can not prove a negative that is logic 101. Try proving there are no unicorns that eat bad children for example.

Why believe in something that has no evidence to support it, there might well be a god and it might be one of the hundreds thousand of gods humans worship or many of them. But believing in one without any evidence seems pretty silly to me. First come a reason to believe then comes belief

MikeKerriii
07-24-2015, 05:56 PM
Not even an honest troll. You chose your words for maximum insult which of course means you have absolutely no desire to engage in any discussion and thus are trolling.

At least RM does what he does with imagination and intelligence, you however......................

Not nearly maximum insult, not even close, that was being more polite than logic would reuie

Is my post any less insulting than the post I originally responded to? Or your post above?

MikeKerriii
07-24-2015, 06:04 PM
Our recruiters were told to stop supporting the armed militia members who are guarding the offices, and instead just simply call the police if an armed assailant tries to come in to shoot them. See, problem solved. Just call the police and they will arrive within the seconds needed to save your life.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2015/07/23/marine-recruiters-told-call-cops-if-armed-citizens-show-up/30583421/

How do you tell the armed assailant from the "guard 'until the start shooting?. How is a cop who rolls up going to be able to tell the terrorists from the idiots?

SomeRandomGuy
07-24-2015, 06:08 PM
Our recruiters were told to stop supporting the armed militia members who are guarding the offices, and instead just simply call the police if an armed assailant tries to come in to shoot them. See, problem solved. Just call the police and they will arrive within the seconds needed to save your life.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2015/07/23/marine-recruiters-told-call-cops-if-armed-citizens-show-up/30583421/

Because recruiters are so much safer with guys like this guarding them

http://www.abc22now.com/news/top-stories/stories/Shot-Accidentally-Fired-by-Civilian-Outside-Recruiting-Center-171617.shtml


Shot Accidentally Fired by Civilian Outside Recruiting Center

LANCASTER (WSYX) -- Men with guns who were voluntarily guarding military recruiters were told to stand down after an accidental shooting at a shopping center.

It happened Thursday, July 23, outside the U.S. Armed Forces Career Center at River Valley Plaza in Lancaster.

"Now they're going to make us leave and we can't be here no more," said Kenneth Castelle, a retired Marine who served in Vietnam.

Christopher Reed was charged with discharging a firearm in the city after Reed says his gun misfired.

A police report reveals Reed was clearing ammo to show off his gun when it went off.

The bullet drilled a hole in the pavement.

"All I can say is that it is a magazine malfunction, that's all I have to say," said Cody Ausel, Reed's friend.

Hours later, Lancaster police told Castelle and others on volunteer guard duty to stand down, one week after the Chattanooga shooting, during which four Marines and a sailor were killed.

"If something happens here and hopefully it don't and if it does I hope they hang the people who own the place," said Castelle.

U.S. Properties Group cited safety concerns with construction going on.

The military recruiters work behind signs warning guns are not allowed.

Castelle says it's safe for him to be there with his M-16 semi-automatic.

"Yes ma'am we're not out here pointing our weapons at cars that go by or stopping vehicles or anything like that," said Castelle.

Lancaster police took away Reed's gun until he goes to court next week.

UncaRastus
07-24-2015, 06:14 PM
MK, just going out on a limb here, but maybe the mode of dress, ie., uniform versus street clothes? Or maybe by the appearance of the people there, being white or black, versus the more Arabic look?

I know that this kind of answer won't answer for all of the terrorist versus recruiter type of scenario, but that is one of the things that could clear up probably 99% of the terrorist/recruiter shooting problems, in the future.

As I said, not 100% fool proof, but it would be a start.

And like what TJ said about the emotional response? Yeah. Me too. On the one hand, I like the spirit of the 'guards'. On the other, they are not trained, no matter what they feel.

MitchellJD1969
07-24-2015, 06:18 PM
Look up the definition of the word magic and that will explain why the word applies to religions

Invisible friend works becasue there is no evidence of god and that is about as invisible as you can get.

Any science from a superior advanced civilization will appear as MAGIC to the less advanced civilization.

science and magic in the same sentence...who would have thought of it.

MitchellJD1969
07-24-2015, 06:21 PM
I don't need magic to justify my views, that means that I am more likely to be right.
I know I don't need an invisible friend to justify my existence, that is a simple statement of fact since I exist and have no invisible friends. You might need an invisible friend but that is your business.

Again what makes you right? I really dont care about what you believe or not....but how do you justify it? On what moral authority? What makes your beliefs superior to those that may belive in a higher power?

MitchellJD1969
07-24-2015, 06:25 PM
In some respects, I don't disagree.

Is there "moral superiority" in treating a rape victim as a victim, providing support and medical treatment...vs. treating her as damaged goods that bring shame upon the family and should be "honor killed"...

Of course, there are well-intentioned individuals differ on that point. Of course the moral sphere I'm accustomed to seems "superior" to the other, to me. But, it is my perspective and that of our society, I suppose.



I'm not sure one can "prove" one morality to be superior to another and I'm not sure I claimed any. I like to think that as we experience life and learn things that we advance rather than regress...advance toward what, I dunno.

This is an interesting question that has me thinking...when a parent tells a child to behave a certain way, is the parent "right" morally?...Is what the child wants better from his/her perspective? In general, I think what the parent wants for the child would be in his/her best interests in the long run...helping them achieve a higher existence...of course, the child is unable to perceive that long term best interest...but, again, that's relative too...and depends on what the future holds as well.

I do think we can learn and change that as we grow, physically, intellectually, emotionally...some might say, spiritually....some of us even endeavor to achieve what we think is a higher level out there.

What gives an older person, generally, more wisdom? Life experiences, learning, having seen and done...I like to think all of this, if taken on, brings a person to a higher level of wisdom and understanding...higher from where and to where is it approaching is a good question that I don't have an immediate answer for.



In some respects, a certain "moral law" probably evolved with mankind...much a like a person gets older and presumably wiser, humankind I think has advanced technologically, intellectually and hopefully, morally to a "more civilized" state.

Was it always wrong to murder? Did that "moral law" evolve as a necessity for humankind to survive? I think most people agree that classic murder is morally wrong...how did we come to that conclusion? Are there people out there that think murder isn't wrong? Can I claim any superiority over them and do I want to?

I'm fairly certain that people didn't think it was just fine and dandy to murder people until Moses brought down the 10 Commandments and then they said, "Oh, wow, hey, that's a good idea, God...we'd never have thought about not killing each other".... No, murder was "wrong" by society standards long before the 10 commandments came around...where did it come from?

Probably the same place that tells Salmon to swim upstream to spawn or newly born sea turtles to head toward the water. Do we really know where these instincts came from? As part of evolution, maybe? The turtles that didn't head to the ocean die...but a baby turtle doesn't know that, he only has a idea to head to the water. Is the turtle that heads toward the water more "right" than one that heads away from it? Only if you consider increasing the odds of personal/family survival a good thing...maybe that turtle heading away from the water had a higher purpose.

But as higher functioning intelligent beings, ours are a bit more complex than basic survival at this point.



I'm a bit of an agnostic myself...though generally feel more atheistic in that I don't think there is a personal God that is watching over us, hearing our prayers, etc. For the most part, I think how and why we exist is unknowable. I realize there are limitations to our own perspective and dimensions that might prevent us from perceiving a whole different banana out there...like an ant walking around a basketball...can walk around and around a seemingly unending path, but think that's all there is.

I'm not so arrogant as to think I have the universe figured out...not even close. My lack of belief in God does not come from my inability to imagine something greater than myself, as is the common strawman put out there by believers. Quite the contrary, in fact. When I ponder the size of time and space, I can't imagine anything capable of all of that could possibly have a cognizant interest in the Yankees game...we're all so extremely insignificant in the grand scheme of things it's pretty much incomprehensible to me.

So, I don't claim moral superiority, cuz there is a lot I don't know. I can only share my perspective of it...I have sort of ruled out the ancient Greek Gods of Mythology, though...in addition to a few others. I could be wrong, but I just find them hard to believe in, even though our current society got many great ideas from the Greeks.


Gotcha...thanks

Just a thought...if other civilizations exist in the universe..it should be interesting to compare the different moralities

Rainmaker
07-24-2015, 06:26 PM
Bottom line is having these guys standing outside is bad for business.



Yeah we wouldn't want to risk any of our potential recruits seeing Recruiters in Uniform carrying actual weapons. Because, they might get the crazy idea, that the purpose of the Military is to fight and win Wars or something.

Hell, They might even change their mind, once they figure out the Armed Services are not just another affirmative action Government Jobs training program.

So, Now we learn that one of these Marines had time to text "ACTIVE SHOOTER" to his Girlfriend? Well, That's helpful......right out of the DoD guidance to "Cower in place", whenever you're ambushed by Radical Muslim, Immigrant, Jihadist on the last day of Ramadan.....

Perhaps if these Treasonous Politicians and Political Hack General Officers (Like Odierno), Appointed over him hadn't infringed upon his Unalienable right to defend himself, he'd of at least had a chance to survive this ambush.

MikeKerriii
07-24-2015, 06:30 PM
Again what makes you right? I really dont care about what you believe or not....but how do you justify it? On what moral authority? What makes your beliefs superior to those that may belive in a higher power?

What makes you think i believe i I have to justify it to anyone? I don't take my moral authority from bronze age fiction. I don't claim authority from something that has no evidence supporting its existence.

The person I was resounding to implied that you need god to be moral, I think that is insulting , at least as insulting as anything I have sad here.

What makes religious people free to insult those of us that are not? When the superstitions they love are refuted they whine about people being rude.

MitchellJD1969
07-24-2015, 06:32 PM
What makes you think i believe i I have to justify it to anyone? I don't take my moral authority from bronze age fiction. I don't claim authority from something that has no evidence supporting its existence.

The person I was resounding to implied that you need god to be moral, I think that is insulting , at least as insulting as anything I have sad here.

What makes religious people free to insult those of us that are not? When the superstitions they love are refuted they whine about people being rude.

Im not religious but the non religious like to push their morality on others just as much as the religious. Again what makes you think your right?

MikeKerriii
07-24-2015, 06:33 PM
Any science from a superior advanced civilization will appear as MAGIC to the less advanced civilization.

science and magic in the same sentence...who would have thought of it.

Except there is no evidence of that advanced civilization.

I knew Clarke's law many decades ago. it is a defense of a non-belief in superstitions written by a then atheist.

MikeKerriii
07-24-2015, 06:34 PM
Im not religious but the non religious like to push their morality on others just as much as the religious. Again what makes you think your right?
I think I am right becasue there is absolutly no evidence to support the other position.

Bos Mutus
07-24-2015, 06:51 PM
Yeah we wouldn't want to risk any of our potential recruits seeing Recruiters in Uniform carrying actual weapons. Because, they might get the crazy idea, that the purpose of the Military is to fight and win Wars or something.

Hey, bright guy...we're not referring to the recruiters carrying weapons...we're referring to these guys:

http://forums.militarytimes.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106&stc=1


Hell, They might even change their mind, once they figure out the Armed Services are not just another affirmative action Government Jobs training program.

So, Now we learn that one of these Marines had time to text "ACTIVE SHOOTER" to his Girlfriend? Well, That's helpful......right out of the DoD guidance to "Cower in place", whenever you're ambushed by Radical Muslim, Immigrant, Jihadist on the last day of Ramadan.....

Perhaps if these Treasonous Politicians and Political Hack General Officers (Like Odierno), Appointed over him hadn't infringed upon his Unalienable right to defend himself, he'd of at least had a chance to survive this ambush.

Perhaps...I'm not disputing the Recruiters carrying weapons...I was talking about the self-appointed civilian guards. Do you have a comment on that?

garhkal
07-24-2015, 07:01 PM
Our recruiters were told to stop supporting the armed militia members who are guarding the offices, and instead just simply call the police if an armed assailant tries to come in to shoot them. See, problem solved. Just call the police and they will arrive within the seconds needed to save your life.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2015/07/23/marine-recruiters-told-call-cops-if-armed-citizens-show-up/30583421/

I had to laugh when one of those armed citizens guarding a recruitment center got kicked off property, for discharging his weapon in to the ground stupidly.
But i also find it laughable that Obama considers THEM a threat, but not Muslim extremists.


Perhaps...I'm not disputing the Recruiters carrying weapons...I was talking about the self-appointed civilian guards. Do you have a comment on that?

As long as they are legally carrying, and are not harassing anyone, i am for them.

Rainmaker
07-24-2015, 07:18 PM
Hey, bright guy...we're not referring to the recruiters carrying weapons...we're referring to these guys

Perhaps...I'm not disputing the Recruiters carrying weapons...I was talking about the self-appointed civilian guards. Do you have a comment on that?


Please excuse. Rainmaker misread your post. That seems to be a pretty common occurrence here, because your posts are usually a minimum of 1500 words.

It's really not necessary for you to treat every post as if it's your Senior Thesis in Diversity Awarness at UMUC.

See, When we're trying to convey an idea, sometimes less is more "bright guy".

And Yes, of course Rainmaker always has an opinion. Doesn't he always?

My opinion is These guys wouldn't be there if our GOFO PC Lackey's hadn't left 10,000+ recruiters at risk with no force protection and no other means of defending themselves.

MitchellJD1969
07-24-2015, 07:30 PM
I think I am right becasue there is absolutly no evidence to support the other position.

You think but all things being relative...you cannot prove that you are right.

Bos Mutus
07-24-2015, 07:40 PM
Please excuse. Rainmaker misread your post. That seems to be a pretty common occurrence here, because your posts are usually a minimum of 1500 words.

Feel free to ignore them...I ignore most of yours.


It's really not necessary for you to treat every post as if it's your Senior Thesis in Diversity Awarness at UMUC.

I never attended UMUC.


See, When we're trying to convey an idea, sometimes less is more "bright guy".

And Yes, of course Rainmaker always has an opinion. Doesn't he always?

My opinion is These guys wouldn't be there if our GOFO PC Lackey's hadn't left 10,000+ recruiters at risk with no force protection and no other means of defending themselves.

Your opinion is noted.

Rainmaker
07-24-2015, 07:44 PM
Feel free to ignore them...I ignore most of yours.



I never attended UMUC.



Your opinion is noted.

Fail. Although this is a good example of distilling your message down to it's basic level. It's still not necessary for you to tell me that you've noted my opinion (after you asked for it and I gave it to you).... Try Saving bandwith. NomSayin?

MitchellJD1969
07-24-2015, 07:46 PM
What makes you think i believe i I have to justify it to anyone? I don't take my moral authority from bronze age fiction. I don't claim authority from something that has no evidence supporting its existence.

The person I was resounding to implied that you need god to be moral, I think that is insulting , at least as insulting as anything I have sad here.

What makes religious people free to insult those of us that are not? When the superstitions they love are refuted they whine about people being rude.

You seem to be comfortable to insult those are that religious it seems...double standard much?

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
07-24-2015, 07:51 PM
Because recruiters are so much safer with guys like this guarding them

http://www.abc22now.com/news/top-stories/stories/Shot-Accidentally-Fired-by-Civilian-Outside-Recruiting-Center-171617.shtml

One guy does something stupid, therefore all will, right?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AxWWJaTEdD0

Bos Mutus
07-24-2015, 07:59 PM
Fail. Although this is a good example of distilling your message down to it's basic level. It's still not necessary for you to tell me that you've noted my opinion (after you asked for it and I gave it to you).... Try Saving bandwith. NomSayin?

Fuck off, douchebag

(how's that?)

Rainmaker
07-24-2015, 08:14 PM
Fuck off, douchebag

(how's that?)

Lulz......

UncaRastus
07-24-2015, 08:23 PM
It's time for some posters to stop insulting and swearing at each other. I understand getting into the heat of the moment. You posters have been warned enough. Next time this happens, there will be a ban emplaced, or even more than one.

Quit trying to post trolling crap, to try to get someone else answer in anger. You guys are grown up. Prove that point to me.

TJMAC77SP
07-25-2015, 03:06 AM
Not nearly maximum insult, not even close, that was being more polite than logic would reuie

Is my post any less insulting than the post I originally responded to? Or your post above?

You chose your words to insult. You have done that from the very beginning. This again, demonstrates a complete lack of desire to discuss anything. The insult is the endgame.

Again you aren't even an honest troll. As for my 'insults' I choose my words to speak the truth. I find you lacking in intelligence and imagination. If that is insulting, I stand guilty. Honestly guilty. I will not however choose to insult any belief system you have in order to make a point though.

TJMAC77SP
07-25-2015, 03:10 AM
It's time for some posters to stop insulting and swearing at each other. I understand getting into the heat of the moment. You posters have been warned enough. Next time this happens, there will be a ban emplaced, or even more than one.

Quit trying to post trolling crap, to try to get someone else answer in anger. You guys are grown up. Prove that point to me.


Sorry to disagree but evidence being present to the contrary I cannot accept your assertion that "you guys are grown up".

Mjölnir
07-25-2015, 04:15 AM
Fuck off, douchebag

(how's that?)


He obviously has no respect for his fellow MTF posters, since he wants to make his attacks personal. That makes him, you guessed it...an A**hole

Please refrain from personal insults.

Disruption

You're welcome to voice your opinion here, and it would be a boring place if you didn't. But if you disagree with a comment that's been made, keep it civil. Posts designed to instigate or disrupt discussions or that contain offensive material may be removed, along with other messages posted in response. Please don't use obscene or offensive language, hate speech or engage in personal attacks of other members. Bashing services on branch-specific forums or any forum is not acceptable within our communities. Posts made with the intent to belittle, harass or otherwise disrupt a community will be removed. Repeated instances of such harassment and disruption may result in a revocation of posting privileges.

MikeKerriii
07-25-2015, 06:08 AM
You chose your words to insult. You have done that from the very beginning. This again, demonstrates a complete lack of desire to discuss anything. The insult is the endgame.

Again you aren't even an honest troll. As for my 'insults' I choose my words to speak the truth. I find you lacking in intelligence and imagination. If that is insulting, I stand guilty. Honestly guilty. I will not however choose to insult any belief system you have in order to make a point though.

The post I responded to was intentionally insulting, mine was dismissive.

MikeKerriii
07-25-2015, 06:11 AM
MK, just going out on a limb here, but maybe the mode of dress, ie., uniform versus street clothes? Or maybe by the appearance of the people there, being white or black, versus the more Arabic look?

I know that this kind of answer won't answer for all of the terrorist versus recruiter type of scenario, but that is one of the things that could clear up probably 99% of the terrorist/recruiter shooting problems, in the future.

As I said, not 100% fool proof, but it would be a start.

And like what TJ said about the emotional response? Yeah. Me too. On the one hand, I like the spirit of the 'guards'. On the other, they are not trained, no matter what they feel.

The Clowns / guards were in civilian/para-mitary clothes, Something any idiot can by easily buy.


I don't admire stupidity, so don't admire these dangerous clowns. amateurs playing soldier would be funny if the were not so dangerous to everyone around.

MikeKerriii
07-25-2015, 06:13 AM
Im not religious but the non religious like to push their morality on others just as much as the religious. Again what makes you think your right?

There are no facts supporting the existence of a god, so there is no reason for me to believe. I don't belie in gods for the same reason i don;t believe in elves and wizards

MikeKerriii
07-25-2015, 06:17 AM
You think but all things being relative...you cannot prove that you are right.

I never said I could prove that there is not god, again Proving a negative is a logical impossibility. If there is evidence showing that god i exists I will reconsider, but in all of human history there is no unbiased record of such proof existing.

MikeKerriii
07-25-2015, 06:18 AM
You seem to be comfortable to insult those are that religious it seems...double standard much?

What insult? I dismissed their belief's that is not insulting them.

MikeKerriii
07-25-2015, 06:20 AM
You chose your words to insult. You have done that from the very beginning. This again, demonstrates a complete lack of desire to discuss anything. The insult is the endgame.

Again you aren't even an honest troll. As for my 'insults' I choose my words to speak the truth. I find you lacking in intelligence and imagination. If that is insulting, I stand guilty. Honestly guilty. I will not however choose to insult any belief system you have in order to make a point though.
You words were insults to me, You carefully chose then to dismiss and insult non-believers, Now you are whining about getting a response?

MikeKerriii
07-25-2015, 06:22 AM
You chose your words to insult. You have done that from the very beginning. This again, demonstrates a complete lack of desire to discuss anything. The insult is the endgame.

Again you aren't even an honest troll. As for my 'insults' I choose my words to speak the truth. I find you lacking in intelligence and imagination. If that is insulting, I stand guilty. Honestly guilty. I will not however choose to insult any belief system you have in order to make a point though.

The post I responded to was insulting mine was simply dismissive

garhkal
07-25-2015, 01:11 PM
One guy does something stupid, therefore all will, right?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AxWWJaTEdD0

It worked for the left in getting the Confederate flag banned.


The Clowns / guards were in civilian/para-mitary clothes, Something any idiot can by easily buy.


I don't admire stupidity, so don't admire these dangerous clowns. amateurs playing soldier would be funny if the were not so dangerous to everyone around.

A) anyone can also buy uniforms by going to an Army surupluss store, so how is being in civilian clothes any different?
B) how are they being a danger to everyone around them? Do you feel in danger when you see armed guards in uniform?

TJMAC77SP
07-25-2015, 02:38 PM
The post I responded to was intentionally insulting, mine was dismissive.

Although redundant................I say again.


You chose your words to insult. You have done that from the very beginning. This again, demonstrates a complete lack of desire to discuss anything. The insult is the endgame.

Again you aren't even an honest troll. As for my 'insults' I choose my words to speak the truth. I find you lacking in intelligence and imagination. If that is insulting, I stand guilty. Honestly guilty. I will not however choose to insult any belief system you have in order to make a point though.

TJMAC77SP
07-25-2015, 02:47 PM
You words were insults to me, You carefully chose then to dismiss and insult non-believers, Now you are whining about getting a response?

A few points of clarity. My words were directed at you. While I don't give a shit if they insulted you they weren't chosen simply to get you to respond in a certain manner. They are my honest opinion of your contributions to the MTF. The truth is that my beliefs are a lot closer to non-believers and the religious. The difference is that I don't hold myself to be intellectually superior to those who do hold religious beliefs. To do so would be arrogant. It is something entirely different when the belief of intellectual superiority is completely unfounded in fact.

I am whining about nothing and that is merely another very lame and unimaginative attempt to deflect from your own lack of intelligence and imagination.

Take today and try to form an original thought. Not something you have gleaned from some website or Facebook. We all get that you don't believe in a higher being. Try discussing it without using insulting (or dismissive) phrases.

The truth is none of that interests you in the fucking least. You insult for the sake of insulting. That is all there is to it. You certainly aren't the first MTF poster to do so and certainly won't be the last. More unoriginality.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
07-25-2015, 02:58 PM
The post I responded to was insulting mine was simply dismissive

While at work, do you tell your religious co-workers that their God doesn't exist and that their belief system is akin to believing in a fairy tale? If not, is it because you respect their feelings and the fact their beliefs are simply different than yours?

If you act respectfully to those standing next to you, why do you act differently to your fellow MTF posters? Is it because as MTF participants sitting behind a keyboard we are not "real" people, not worthy of your respect?

MikeKerriii
07-25-2015, 03:29 PM
While at work, do you tell your religious co-workers that their God doesn't exist and that their belief system is akin to believing in a fairy tale? If not, is it because you respect their feelings and the fact their beliefs are simply different than yours?

If you act respectfully to those standing next to you, why do you act differently to your fellow MTF posters? Is it because as MTF participants sitting behind a keyboard we are not "real" people, not worthy of your respect?

I ask that they leave me alone, they try to preach at me I tell them to F-off I have no obligation to put up with that shit. If as rational people do, the leave the region at the doorway to the workplace ha Say nothing to them about religion at all.

If on the other-hand if the intentionally throw insults like the post that I was responding to I see no need to be polite in my response,

I respect your right to your beliefs, I have no obligation to respect those beliefs at all, especially when you start the conversation by insulting my beliefs.

MikeKerriii
07-25-2015, 03:33 PM
It worked for the left in getting the Confederate flag banned. The traitor rag should have been banned in1865, it just took a while to get it done.




A) anyone can also buy uniforms by going to an Army surupluss store, so how is being in civilian clothes any different?
B) how are they being a danger to everyone around them? Do you feel in danger when you see armed guards in uniform? I jut have that reaction to untrained, unlicensed and unqualified dim-witts pretending to be guards, I have no trouble with actual guards

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
07-25-2015, 09:08 PM
I ask that they leave me alone, they try to preach at me I tell them to F-off I have no obligation to put up with that shit. If as rational people do, the leave the region at the doorway to the workplace ha Say nothing to them about religion at all.

If on the other-hand if the intentionally throw insults like the post that I was responding to I see no need to be polite in my response,

I respect your right to your beliefs, I have no obligation to respect those beliefs at all, especially when you start the conversation by insulting my beliefs.

I would ask them to leave me alone or even tell them to F-off too. However, I'm not referring to people who preach to you, but rather those who's beliefs come up when discussing things like, "the meaning of life." If someone says, "I was hiking for 10 hours and if it wasn't for Jesus, then I wouldn't have made it," would you have stated, "Your Sky God is as non-existent as the Effing tooth fairy, you fool!," or would you have done like me and simply kept your thoughts to yourself?

MikeKerriii
07-25-2015, 10:05 PM
I would ask them to leave me alone or even tell them to F-off too. However, I'm not referring to people who preach to you, but rather those who's beliefs come up when discussing things like, "the meaning of life." If someone says, "I was hiking for 10 hours and if it wasn't for Jesus, then I wouldn't have made it," would you have stated, "Your Sky God is as non-existent as the Effing tooth fairy, you fool!," or would you have done like me and simply kept your thoughts to yourself?

The post that started this was a direct attack on non-believers. I responded by calling BS as out as BS

TJMAC77SP
07-25-2015, 11:19 PM
The post that started this was a direct attack on non-believers. I responded by calling BS as out as BS


Bullshit.

Here is the chain of posts where you started your insults. Please point out where you were insulted first. It was at the end of this that I first called bullshit on your trolling. Of course nothing you said was original as it is stuff we see from AA as well but he isn't posting bullshit denials.


First there was this post...........


Whats obvious that lacking a higher power everthing is pretty much pointless. You live, you die, no right, no wrong because death is the only end state of ourexistance. Everything becomes relative with all points of view valid and justifiable.

To which you replied........starting the very unclever back and forth.


That is true only if you need a invisible friend to give your life meaning. I for one don't

Then you were asked a question................


What makes you right?


And here is your very mature and considered response.....................


Idon't need magic to justify my views, that means that I am more likely to be right.


I know I don't need an invisible friend to justify my existence, that is a simple statement of fact since I exist and have no invisible friends. You might need an invisible friend but that is your business.


Maybe I missed it so point out the post that "was a direct attack on non-believers".

MikeKerriii
07-26-2015, 12:29 AM
Bullshit.

Here is the chain of posts where you started your insults. Please point out where you were insulted first. It was at the end of this that I first called bullshit on your trolling. Of course nothing you said was original as it is stuff we see from AA as well but he isn't posting bullshit denials.


First there was this post...........



To which you replied........starting the very unclever back and forth.



Then you were asked a question................




And here is your very mature and considered response.....................




Maybe I missed it so point out the post that "was a direct attack on non-believers".

What part of the original post from MitchellJD1969, was not a direct and intention insult to non-believers? A direct insult was the whole point of his post.

TJMAC77SP
07-26-2015, 01:16 AM
What part of the original post from MitchellJD1969, was not a direct and intention insult to non-believers? A direct insult was the whole point of his post.

Jesus Fucking Christ........although not a new revelation for sure but you have zero fucking credibility.

What the fuck about these words............."Whats obvious that lacking a higher power everthing is pretty much pointless. You live, you die, no right, no wrong because death is the only end state of our existance. Everything becomes relative with all points of view valid and justifiable." is insulting to anyone?!?!?

And you dare mention the word 'whining' to me.

You lied. I just illustrated that. Take the bitter medicine and get on with life.

To end on a positive note..........your typing has greatly improved. What's the secret?

MikeKerriii
07-26-2015, 02:21 AM
Jesus Fucking Christ........although not a new revelation for sure but you have zero fucking credibility.

What the fuck about these words............."Whats obvious that lacking a higher power everthing is pretty much pointless. You live, you die, no right, no wrong because death is the only end state of our existance. Everything becomes relative with all points of view valid and justifiable." is insulting to anyone?!?!?

And you dare mention the word 'whining' to me.

You lied. I just illustrated that. Take the bitter medicine and get on with life.

To end on a positive note..........your typing has greatly improved. What's the secret?

more whining and just about everything in that post is offensive"

Claiming a need for a god to give life a point is offensive in the extreme if is also a lie
Claiming that without a god morals are nonexistent 1s offensive in the extreme

Perhaps the religious bias has you so offended at what I posted is why you can't see the insults,.

My hands work better in warm weather, if it is warm long enough so my typing gets better

Mjölnir
07-26-2015, 02:30 AM
Of course nothing you said was original as it is stuff we see from AA as well but he isn't posting bullshit denials.
Absinthe Anecdote does own his opinions, I disagree with him on some things but I appreciate the fact that he owns them.

TJMAC77SP
07-26-2015, 02:52 AM
@Absinthe Anecdote (http://forums.militarytimes.com/member.php?u=15055) does own his opinions, I disagree with him on some things but I appreciate the fact that he owns them.

As do I........

TJMAC77SP
07-26-2015, 02:53 AM
My hands work better in warm weather, if it is warm long enough so my typing gets better

Even that isn't very imaginative.

Mjölnir
07-26-2015, 02:54 AM
All,

This thread has significantly deviated from the topic. I don't expect or desire that we steadfastly stay on target, but the tangent here is rather long.

Also, this is as close as I have come in some time to closing a thread. Please keep in mind it is one thing to disagree with another user, even to energetically disagree. It is not a violation of the Community Guidelines to say that someone is wrong, but personal attacks etc. are not acceptable and are frankly unwelcome. If you are that frustrated with someone on MTF, maybe just take a break. Those who continue to make the disagreements personal insults and attack-fests will find their posting privileges suspended.

Everyone here has something to contribute, if we all had the same opinion this would be a boring forum ... but keep it civil.

thanks.

MikeKerriii
07-26-2015, 03:28 AM
Even that isn't very imaginative.
Facts are always unimaginative. At least among the sane.

garhkal
07-26-2015, 03:34 AM
While at work, do you tell your religious co-workers that their God doesn't exist and that their belief system is akin to believing in a fairy tale? If not, is it because you respect their feelings and the fact their beliefs are simply different than yours?

If you act respectfully to those standing next to you, why do you act differently to your fellow MTF posters? Is it because as MTF participants sitting behind a keyboard we are not "real" people, not worthy of your respect?

It might be more that cause its over the internet its not as bad as doing it in person. I know quite a few people who won't curse someone up, or insult their beliefs face to face, but think nothing of it when on line.


The traitor rag should have been banned in1865, it just took a while to get it done.

Why do you feel its a traitorous flag?



I jut have that reaction to untrained, unlicensed and unqualified dim-witts pretending to be guards, I have no trouble with actual guards

What exactly do you consider to be someone trained/licenced/qualified?

TJMAC77SP
07-26-2015, 03:47 AM
Facts are always unimaginative. At least among the sane.

What mindless google derived website did you get that tidbit from? Sounds like something from a movie parody of Kung Fu the series. Let me be clearer. You are full of shit about your "I only have four working fingers" shtick.
I am truly glad to see you posts actually readable though whatever the reason.

MikeKerriii
07-26-2015, 04:13 PM
What mindless google derived website did you get that tidbit from? Sounds like something from a movie parody of Kung Fu the series. Let me be clearer. You are full of shit about your "I only have four working fingers" shtick.
I am truly glad to see you posts actually readable though whatever the reason.

It is a simple statement of fact, obvious to anyone that knows what the words imaginative and fact mean,

MikeKerriii
07-26-2015, 04:24 PM
Why do you feel its a traitorous flag?

Anmericans who took up arms against the United States with the intent to destroy the United States

Articular three, section three of the US Constitution


Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.





What exactly do you consider to be someone trained/licenced/qualified? the training legally necessary to act as a armed security guard, with in most states that is fairly close to the level of training it requires to be a cop,, You should also. just a any other security guard required, to be bonded.

garhkal
07-27-2015, 05:47 AM
Wasn't it the NORTH who made the first attack against the confederate states after they threatened to Ceceed from the union?
Ergo, how then can THEY be the traitors?

MikeKerriii
07-27-2015, 06:49 AM
Wasn't it the NORTH who made the first attack against the confederate states after they threatened to Ceceed from the union?
Ergo, how then can THEY be the traitors?

Perhaps becasue your statement about who attacked who is totally fictional

It was not the North who made the first attack or even the second, the first shots were fired at a Union steamer, Star of the West, in Charleston harbor, the next shots were fired at the United States Fort, Ft. Sumter. Which did not return fire until after hours of bombardment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston,_South_Carolina_in_the_American_Civil_W ar
http://www.woot.com/blog/post/the-debunker-when-were-the-first-shots-of-the-civil-war-fired
http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/civilwar/a/CivilWarFirst.htm
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/sumter.htm
http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/biographies/george-sholter-james.html
http://www.thestate.com/news/special-reports/article14392631.html
http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/major-anderson-ft-sumter_Dir/first-shot-civil-war.htm

Where i did you get the idea that the first attack was against the Confederate states? The first attack was by the Confederate states again A United States steamer, the second against a fort of the United States Army.

Where do you imagine the shooting part of the war started?

Shelby Foote, a southerner, wrote a great s trilogy on the Civil war I would recommend it, or even the Ken Burns documentary made from the books (on Netflix). Bruce Catton did some great work also.

Much of popular history of the Civil war is completely off base. Some things are still up for debate. But where and when the shooting started has been a stable historical fact since the day that South Carolina troops opened fire upon US forces

hustonj
07-27-2015, 03:49 PM
The common-use definition of fact is something which is true.

The legal-use definition of fact is something which is provably true or false.

Witness testimony is not reliable, as people provide imaginative facts all the time, without malicious intent.

If it is true that we (in most cases) perceive the sky as blue and that some people are blue/green color-blind, is it an imaginative fact to note that some people perceive the sky as green? Or is it a truth that fits outside your expectations?

Rainmaker
07-27-2015, 04:49 PM
Perhaps becasue your statement about who attacked who is totally fictional

It was not the North who made the first attack or even the second, the first shots were fired at a Union steamer, Star of the West, in Charleston harbor, the next shots were fired at the United States Fort, Ft. Sumter. Which did not return fire until after hours of bombardment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston,_South_Carolina_in_the_American_Civil_W ar
http://www.woot.com/blog/post/the-debunker-when-were-the-first-shots-of-the-civil-war-fired
http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/civilwar/a/CivilWarFirst.htm
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/sumter.htm
http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/biographies/george-sholter-james.html
http://www.thestate.com/news/special-reports/article14392631.html
http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/major-anderson-ft-sumter_Dir/first-shot-civil-war.htm

Where i did you get the idea that the first attack was against the Confederate states? The first attack was by the Confederate states again A United States steamer, the second against a fort of the United States Army.

Where do you imagine the shooting part of the war started?

Shelby Foote, a southerner, wrote a great s trilogy on the Civil war I would recommend it, or even the Ken Burns documentary made from the books (on Netflix). Bruce Catton did some great work also.

Much of popular history of the Civil war is completely off base. Some things are still up for debate. But where and when the shooting started has been a stable historical fact since the day that South Carolina troops opened fire upon US forces

The civil war came about when one third of the country came to realize they no longer had a political voice in the federal government.

It was a war that never needed to be fought. Slavery was a dying institution and would've disappeared on its own in another generation.

The Secretary of War even recommended the federal government abandon Sumter to "prevent civil war."

The war was fought to decide whether or not the states had a legal right to secede.

The southern states objected to the govt. spending tax money from one state on projects in another because, the Congress had spent a disproportionate amount of all the tax revenue being collected in the North.

So you See. Mike's right........The North purposely provoked the war by attempting to resupply Ft. Sumter....

The North couldn't afford to be seen as the aggressor or England and France might recognize the confederacy, which would've spelled doom for the Union Army. Because, even with a population 3 times the size and 10 times the industrial capacity they nearly lost anyway.

MikeKerriii
07-27-2015, 07:30 PM
The civil war came about when one third of the country came to realize they no longer had a political voice in the federal government.

It was a war that never needed to be fought. Slavery was a dying institution and would've disappeared on its own in another generation.

The Secretary of War even recommended the federal government abandon Sumter to "prevent civil war."

The war was fought to decide whether or not the states had a legal right to secede.

The southern states objected to the govt. spending tax money from one state on projects in another because, the Congress had spent a disproportionate amount of all the tax revenue being collected in the North.

So you See. Mike's right........The North purposely provoked the war by attempting to resupply Ft. Sumter....

The North couldn't afford to be seen as the aggressor or England and France might recognize the confederacy, which would've spelled doom for the Union Army. Because, even with a population 3 times the size and 10 times the industrial capacity they nearly lost anyway.

Such a provocative act! the US army supplying US army troops at A US Army on United States territory. paying attention to the criminals who were thus provoked would have been a grave mistake.

And if you read the reasons that the South Carolina legislature succeeded Slavery was the prime reason.

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/south-carolina-declaration-of-causes-of-secession/

Slavery ending in a another generation is just a dishonest excuse, And just as baseless as the "war of Noerthern Aggression" idiocy. The traitors were not forced to fire, the chose to commit treason of their own free will.

There is no evidence that slavery on the south was going to die out in a generation that ignores the millions of people harmed. That is like saying Pimps are going to stop being pimps( my apologies to pimps for the comparison)

Rainmaker
07-27-2015, 07:59 PM
Such a provocative act! the US army supplying US army troops at A US Army on United States territory. paying attention to the criminals who were thus provoked would have been a grave mistake.

And if you read the reasons that the South Carolina legislature succeeded Slavery was the prime reason.

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/south-carolina-declaration-of-causes-of-secession/

Slavery ending in a another generation is just a dishonest excuse, And just as baseless as the "war of Noerthern Aggression" idiocy. The traitors were not forced to fire, the chose to commit treason of their own free will.

There is no evidence that slavery on the south was going to die out in a generation that ignores the millions of people harmed. That is like saying Pimps are going to stop being pimps( my apologies to pimps for the comparison)

+1 for effort on the pimps analogy....

But, Yes...... a foreign state sailing a ship into a sovereign state's harbor (to resupply a gun battery they're maintaining in the middle of it) with a warship docked right outside it, would be considered a provocative act.... which, is why they did it.... to provoke the war.

The majority of the southern leaders who attended the confederate constitutional convention expected a peaceful secession. They were wrong about that.

Slavery was on its way out. Cotton was already in major decline by the start of the Civil War..... Because, it was cheaper for the Europeans to get it from India and Egypt anyway.

But, The Northern Industrialists (that owned the The Northern Politicians) wanted to speed up its demise.... because, they wanted to force the southerners to use Immigrant labor from Europe instead, which was cheaper than using slaves (less overhead).

That and the Southern Womanhood was noticing that the new slaves were starting to look less and less black and more and more brown and they weren't standing for it much longer.

But, To put it in simple minded terms you can understand....Consider, The Civil war was the "final solution to the American slavery problem", so to speak. It was a genocide.

After the war Lincoln was planning to repatriate the slaves back to Africa. But, as they say the rest is His-story. Nomsayin?

MikeKerriii
07-28-2015, 03:26 AM
+1 for effort on the pimps analogy....

But, Yes...... a foreign state sailing a ship into a sovereign state's harbor (to resupply a gun battery they're maintaining in the middle of it) with a warship docked right outside it, would be considered a provocative act.... which, is why they did it.... to provoke the war.

The majority of the southern leaders who attended the confederate constitutional convention expected a peaceful secession. They were wrong about that.

Slavery was on its way out. Cotton was already in major decline by the start of the Civil War..... Because, it was cheaper for the Europeans to get it from India and Egypt anyway.

But, The Northern Industrialists (that owned the The Northern Politicians) wanted to speed up its demise.... because, they wanted to force the southerners to use Immigrant labor from Europe instead, which was cheaper than using slaves (less overhead).

That and the Southern Womanhood was noticing that the new slaves were starting to look less and less black and more and more brown and they weren't standing for it much longer.

But, To put it in simple minded terms you can understand....Consider, The Civil war was the "final solution to the American slavery problem", so to speak. It was a genocide.

After the war Lincoln was planning to repatriate the slaves back to Africa. But, as they say the rest is His-story. Nomsayin?


A US ship into a US to resupply a US fort. Try again

The Pimp analogy work well when used for southern slaveholders Buying and selling flesh of profit, except pimps tend to be more honorable and less vicious and give fewer excuses

Slavery would have stuck arouse not so much for economic reasons as much as social reasons Southern gentleman (pimps) needed to own slaves for status reasons. Slavery would have remained profitable until the early 20th Century at least.

The traitorous criminals expecting to get away with the crime of treason is understandable. Criminals usually think they will get away with their crimes. They might have even gotten away with it if they had not gotten stupid/ trigger happy and tried to kill United States Army troops.

Rainmaker
07-28-2015, 03:57 PM
A US ship into a US to resupply a US fort. Try again

The Pimp analogy work well when used for southern slaveholders Buying and selling flesh of profit, except pimps tend to be more honorable and less vicious and give fewer excuses

Slavery would have stuck arouse not so much for economic reasons as much as social reasons Southern gentleman (pimps) needed to own slaves for status reasons. .

Agree. the Pimp thing was funny, and it was actually legible!

It's refreshing to see that you attempted to use Humor in one of your disinformation rants.

Now, You Don't have to get carried away with it though and say "pimp" several times in every post (like you do with scumbag).

And, By the way "Mike", Please do pass on my feedback to HQ.

MikeKerriii
07-28-2015, 04:20 PM
Pimp like is simply the most accurate descriptive that I can use without using obscenities, It fits perfectly so why not use it. It was not a attempt at humor it was simply being accurate