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Absinthe Anecdote
07-14-2015, 07:34 PM
Even if you are a believer in God, praying to him to ask him for anything makes no sense.

Especially when you consider God's will and his plan.

If it isn't his will for you to get whatever you are asking for, you aren't going to get it.

If it is his will to for you to get what you are asking for, then your prayer is equally irrelevant.

Let's say you have small child who has been in a car accident, the child is near death.

Your prayers have absolutely no impact on God's will to save the child.

If the child dies, some dumbass in your church will explain that God must have needed another little angel in heaven.

If the child recovers, there will be great rejoicing and praising of God for answering the prayers to save the child, but if it wasn't his will to do it, no amount of prayer would save the child.

You can get the exact same results praying to a fire hydrant.

hustonj
07-14-2015, 07:58 PM
I approach the question just a little differently.

1) If you accept an omniscient God, then you accept that He already knows what all of our actions and choices will be.
2) If you accept that we have free will, then you accept that God's foreknowledge is simply knowledge, not fate or directive. Kind of like I always knew what my children would order if I took them our for fast food burgers, but I let them make up their own minds and tell me what they wanted.
3) If you accept an omnipotent God, then you accept that He has the ability to change literally anything about anything at any time.
4) If you accept that we have free will, then you accept that He chooses not to interfere with the results of our choices.

Since I was taught that God is omniscient, omnipotent and has gone well out of His way to ensure that we have the privilege of free will, it takes very little in the way of thought to take the 4 numbered points as givens in a conversation about this same God.

4 is the big one.

Pray for anything you want, but if you are praying to avoid the consequences of human choice, know that you are explicitly requesting God violate his primary promise in setting us free in the world.

The only things you can pray for, and have any expectation to receive, amount to help controlling your own thoughts, emotions and behaviors. You can focus on being more empathetic, more understanding, more patient. But you can't get things changed, just how you perceive and respond to them.

Interestingly enough, you can achieve the same goals through meditation . . ..

Absinthe Anecdote
07-14-2015, 09:20 PM
I approach the question just a little differently.

1) If you accept an omniscient God, then you accept that He already knows what all of our actions and choices will be.
2) If you accept that we have free will, then you accept that God's foreknowledge is simply knowledge, not fate or directive. Kind of like I always knew what my children would order if I took them our for fast food burgers, but I let them make up their own minds and tell me what they wanted.
3) If you accept an omnipotent God, then you accept that He has the ability to change literally anything about anything at any time.
4) If you accept that we have free will, then you accept that He chooses not to interfere with the results of our choices.

Since I was taught that God is omniscient, omnipotent and has gone well out of His way to ensure that we have the privilege of free will, it takes very little in the way of thought to take the 4 numbered points as givens in a conversation about this same God.

4 is the big one.

Pray for anything you want, but if you are praying to avoid the consequences of human choice, know that you are explicitly requesting God violate his primary promise in setting us free in the world.

The only things you can pray for, and have any expectation to receive, amount to help controlling your own thoughts, emotions and behaviors. You can focus on being more empathetic, more understanding, more patient. But you can't get things changed, just how you perceive and respond to them.

Interestingly enough, you can achieve the same goals through meditation . . ..

That is a rather healthy way of looking at, but it is certainly at odds with what the Christian Bible promises.




Jesus Curses a Fig Tree

Matthew 21:18-22 New International Version

18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.

20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.

21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

If one believes what the Christian bible says, that shouldn't matter.

I agree with how you explained it, in that it allows the modern day Christain to cope with matters of faith.

However, that way of thinking isn't in the source material, the Holy Bible promises something entirely different.

It is hard to deny a clear failure to deliver on Matthew 21:21.

PS

Matthew 21:18 shows Jesus acting like a pouty little bitch if you ask me.

He kills the fig tree because it had no figs?

Think about all the tired, poor, and hungry travelers who might have enjoyed a fig the next year.

Instead of blessing it to feed hungry people, he gets mad and curses the poor little fig tree, effectively screwing over future travelers.

That is a clearly a dickhead move.

Bos Mutus
07-15-2015, 02:03 AM
I approach the question just a little differently.

1) If you accept an omniscient God, then you accept that He already knows what all of our actions and choices will be.
2) If you accept that we have free will, then you accept that God's foreknowledge is simply knowledge, not fate or directive. Kind of like I always knew what my children would order if I took them our for fast food burgers, but I let them make up their own minds and tell me what they wanted.
3) If you accept an omnipotent God, then you accept that He has the ability to change literally anything about anything at any time.
4) If you accept that we have free will, then you accept that He chooses not to interfere with the results of our choices.

Since I was taught that God is omniscient, omnipotent and has gone well out of His way to ensure that we have the privilege of free will, it takes very little in the way of thought to take the 4 numbered points as givens in a conversation about this same God.

4 is the big one.

Pray for anything you want, but if you are praying to avoid the consequences of human choice, know that you are explicitly requesting God violate his primary promise in setting us free in the world.

The only things you can pray for, and have any expectation to receive, amount to help controlling your own thoughts, emotions and behaviors. You can focus on being more empathetic, more understanding, more patient. But you can't get things changed, just how you perceive and respond to them.

Interestingly enough, you can achieve the same goals through meditation . . ..

...and if you believe the Christian salvation story.

You also accept that God created the vast majority of human souls, that he apparently loved, knowing good and well that after an exceedingly short time on Earth full of temptation, they would then spend an eternity in torment, weeping an gnashing their teeth burning in Hell.

I find that difficult to reconcile.

If you knew your child was going to choose a cyanide-laced bag of fries from the homeless bum outside so he could save $1.79, you would probably prevent it.

Rainmaker
07-15-2015, 03:27 AM
PS

Matthew 21:18 shows Jesus acting like a pouty little bitch if you ask me.

He kills the fig tree because it had no figs?

Think about all the tired, poor, and hungry travelers who might have enjoyed a fig the next year.

Instead of blessing it to feed hungry people, he gets mad and curses the poor little fig tree, effectively screwing over future travelers.

That is a clearly a dickhead move.

Do you kiss your rabbi with that potty mouth?

Absinthe Anecdote
07-15-2015, 04:32 AM
Do you kiss your rabbi with that potty mouth?

No, I usually take him into the mikvah and give him a proper rogering.

Shouldn't you be out infiltrating a Mason lodge?

Absinthe Anecdote
07-15-2015, 04:55 AM
...and if you believe the Christian salvation story.

You also accept that God created the vast majority of human souls, that he apparently loved, knowing good and well that after an exceedingly short time on Earth full of temptation, they would then spend an eternity in torment, weeping an gnashing their teeth burning in Hell.

I find that difficult to reconcile.

If you knew your child was going to choose a cyanide-laced bag of fries from the homeless bum outside so he could save $1.79, you would probably prevent it.

You just hit pay dirt!

So few Christains ever contemplate the Alpha and Omega in such a manner.

God would be responsible for everything if he is real. All the good, but also the all the darkest evil too.

Something that creates such darkness, and leaves us such a shitty set of instructions as the Christian Bible to avoid it does not seem competent at all.

Far from it, he is a bungling hayseed. He is childlike with his creations, because he sets so many of us up for failure and destruction.

Not unlike a kid who spends hours building a model ship, only to blow it to smithereens with firecrackers after a short while.

Omniscient, omnipotent creator?

Bullshit!

A cosmic seven-year-old who lords over a weebles village with a can of lighter fluid and a lit match is more like it.

SomeRandomGuy
07-15-2015, 02:10 PM
So I thought I would piggyback on this thread. I grew up in Southwest Missouri as the son of a Pentecostal Pastor. I haven't been to church in years but I'm still friends with a lot of Christians just because I grew up with them or went to school with them. In the last year, two people I know have lost a family member.

The first person is a mother who lost her 20 year old son. He overdosed on methamphetamine. Even though he was passed out, his friends didn't want to take him to the hospital for fear of being arrested. They just dumped his body. His mother posted a rather long plea for those who were involved to come forward and help the investigation. She also went into this long rant about how she has prayed to God and that God told her that her son is in Heaven.

The other person is someone who I went to school with. Her brother committed suicide a few weeks ago. She has been posting things like, "God needed another Angel" or that her brother is in Heaven watching over her.

Here's my question, how can either of these people reconcile these posts with their beliefs? If a drug addict and someone who committed suicide are both in Heaven then isn't pretty much everyone going to make it? In both of these cases, I think the people are having a hard time dealing with the vengeful side of God. People believe in Christianity because they want to believe in something after this life. That provides comfort for them as they live their life. The problem is when loved ones die they are left with only two options. 1.) Their loved one is being tormented in Hell because the God they serve sent him there or 2.) Their loved one is in Heaven because everyone goes to Heaven which makes it pointless to pick any religion at all.

Any of you have friends like this? I really want to say something to these people but I figure it is probably best to just let them grieve. It would be an asshole move to point out that if there is a Heaven their loved ones aren't in it.

Rainmaker
07-15-2015, 02:27 PM
No, I usually take him into the mikvah and give him a proper rogering.

Serious Question, How does one go about reconciling his hatred of all things religion with the fact that his life's work (collecting or analyzing intelligence) is being directed by those dedicated to bringing about a Greater Israel from the Brook of Egypt to the Euphrates?


Shouldn't you be out infiltrating a Mason lodge?

Shouldn't you be following up on that lead Rainmaker gave you about the Mosque in Silver Spring instead of looking at Selfies of American Citizen's nutsacks stolen from their smart phones?

Bos Mutus
07-15-2015, 02:53 PM
So I thought I would piggyback on this thread. I grew up in Southwest Missouri as the son of a Pentecostal Pastor. I haven't been to church in years but I'm still friends with a lot of Christians just because I grew up with them or went to school with them. In the last year, two people I know have lost a family member.

The first person is a mother who lost her 20 year old son. He overdosed on methamphetamine. Even though he was passed out, his friends didn't want to take him to the hospital for fear of being arrested. They just dumped his body. His mother posted a rather long plea for those who were involved to come forward and help the investigation. She also went into this long rant about how she has prayed to God and that God told her that her son is in Heaven.

The other person is someone who I went to school with. Her brother committed suicide a few weeks ago. She has been posting things like, "God needed another Angel" or that her brother is in Heaven watching over her.

Here's my question, how can either of these people reconcile these posts with their beliefs? If a drug addict and someone who committed suicide are both in Heaven then isn't pretty much everyone going to make it? In both of these cases, I think the people are having a hard time dealing with the vengeful side of God. People believe in Christianity because they want to believe in something after this life. That provides comfort for them as they live their life. The problem is when loved ones die they are left with only two options. 1.) Their loved one is being tormented in Hell because the God they serve sent him there or 2.) Their loved one is in Heaven because everyone goes to Heaven which makes it pointless to pick any religion at all.

Any of you have friends like this? I really want to say something to these people but I figure it is probably best to just let them grieve. It would be an asshole move to point out that if there is a Heaven their loved ones aren't in it.

My Mom passed away while I was a Christian. She was kind of a Christian, too, but not the Born-again, say a prayer to be saved kind that I had become at the time.

So...I prayed and convinced myself that God told me with that "little voice in my head"...that minutes or seconds prior to her death, Jesus appeared to her and she accepted Him into her heart. Hallelujah.

That is kind of the good thing there...no matter what or how you lived your life, you only needed to accept Jesus a second before you die and it's milk and honey with streets paved with gold for you...so, that's how they reconcile it, I think...convince themselves that in that last minute when their loved on is in a coma, jesus comes to them and says, "Yo, here I am" and that person accepted Him into their heart.

Seems that was the answer to all the millions of people who lived before Jesus came to Earth and never had the opportunity to accept him. During the 3 days that Jesus was dead, he went into Hell or purgatory or wherever to give all the dead people that chance to accept Him into their hearts. Seems like, at that point, it's a pretty easy call, really.

...Had a guy that worked in our building pass away a couple years ago. One of his good friends spoke at the funeral about how he has been on Dean's case about accepting the Lord for years...Dean always refused. So, Dean got Leukemia in his 70s, and this friend spent some time with him when he was close to death. So, Dean was facing his mortality and finally started taking this whole Jesus thing seriously, but he'd said Dean felt guilty and hypocritical that he refused God his whole life and was looking for him now. This friend explained God's mercy and there at the very end, led Dean in prayer to accept Jesus. Saved in the nick of time, Dean died a short while later.

I think you're right...we like to think there is a Heaven because it makes us feel better....live forever! Some parts of it make me scratch my head. There supposed will be no sin in Heaven...so, we all sin, will we remember our sins, we will still want to do them? If not, are we still the same person up there? Will we remember the people in our Earth life that didn't get in? How could we live eternally joyous knowing our loved ones are being eternally tormented? If we won't remember even our loved ones...just who will we be up there?

Then there is the Andrea Yates thing, as I've brought up before. She killed her 5 children because she was afraid they were gonna turn against God. Now, typically, Christianity will teach us that children go to heaven. It's too horrible to think otherwise. But when you compare eternity in Heaven to the few short years we get to spend on Earth...Andrea Yates did her children a HUGE favor by getting them into Heaven before they had a chance to screw up their eternity as adults on Earth. I mean who cares about the 80 or 90 years we get on Earth in relation to eternity? Of course, she probably screwed up her own eternity by doing so...but seriously, isn't that a pretty awesome love? For Andrea so loved her children that she gave up her own eternity so that her children could live forever. Now, THAT is some sacrifice! Pretty amazing Mom if you believe all the sorts of things she did.

If you believe that children automatically go to heaven, we really should kill all the babies. Allowing them to live only gives them opportunity to screw up their eternities...abortion is just saving souls.

Rainmaker
07-15-2015, 02:54 PM
You just hit pay dirt!

So few Christains ever contemplate the Alpha and Omega in such a manner.

God would be responsible for everything if he is real. All the good, but also the all the darkest evil too.

Something that creates such darkness, and leaves us such a shitty set of instructions as the Christian Bible to avoid it does not seem competent at all.

Far from it, he is a bungling hayseed. He is childlike with his creations, because he sets so many of us up for failure and destruction. Not unlike a kid who spends hours building a model ship, only to blow it to smithereens with firecrackers after a short while.

Omniscient, omnipotent creator?

Bullshit!
A cosmic seven-year-old who lords over a weebles village with a can of lighter fluid and a lit match is more like it.

I'll take Luciferian Doctrine for $200 Alex.

SomeRandomGuy
07-15-2015, 03:07 PM
My Mom passed away while I was a Christian. She was kind of a Christian, too, but not the Born-again, say a prayer to be saved kind that I had become at the time.

So...I prayed and convinced myself that God told me with that "little voice in my head"...that minutes or seconds prior to her death, Jesus appeared to her and she accepted Him into her heart. Hallelujah.

That is kind of the good thing there...no matter what or how you lived your life, you only needed to accept Jesus a second before you die and it's milk and honey with streets paved with gold for you...so, that's how they reconcile it, I think...convince themselves that in that last minute when their loved on is in a coma, jesus comes to them and says, "Yo, here I am" and that person accepted Him into their heart.

Seems that was the answer to all the millions of people who lived before Jesus came to Earth and never had the opportunity to accept him. During the 3 days that Jesus was dead, he went into Hell or purgatory or wherever to give all the dead people that chance to accept Him into their hearts. Seems like, at that point, it's a pretty easy call, really.

...Had a guy that worked in our building pass away a couple years ago. One of his good friends spoke at the funeral about how he has been on Dean's case about accepting the Lord for years...Dean always refused. So, Dean got Leukemia in his 70s, and this friend spent some time with him when he was close to death. So, Dean was facing his mortality and finally started taking this whole Jesus thing seriously, but he'd said Dean felt guilty and hypocritical that he refused God his whole life and was looking for him now. This friend explained God's mercy and there at the very end, led Dean in prayer to accept Jesus. Saved in the nick of time, Dean died a short while later.

I think you're right...we like to think there is a Heaven because it makes us feel better....live forever! Some parts of it make me scratch my head. There supposed will be no sin in Heaven...so, we all sin, will we remember our sins, we will still want to do them? If not, are we still the same person up there? Will we remember the people in our Earth life that didn't get in? How could we live eternally joyous knowing our loved ones are being eternally tormented? If we won't remember even our loved ones...just who will we be up there?

Then there is the Andrea Yates thing, as I've brought up before. She killed her 5 children because she was afraid they were gonna turn against God. Now, typically, Christianity will teach us that children go to heaven. It's too horrible to think otherwise. But when you compare eternity in Heaven to the few short years we get to spend on Earth...Andrea Yates did her children a HUGE favor by getting them into Heaven before they had a chance to screw up their eternity as adults on Earth. I mean who cares about the 80 or 90 years we get on Earth in relation to eternity? If you believe that children automatically go to heaven, we really should kill all the babies. Allowing them to live only gives them opportunity to screw up their eternities.

Regarding what Heaven will be like: My understanding is that we will spend the whole time singing and dancing and worshipping God. To me that doesn't sound all that exciting.

In Mark 12:18-25 The Sadducees asked an interesting question. It is too bad they didn't ask more like this. Moses taught that if your brother's wife dies you should marry her and take care of her. They tell a story of seven brothers who in order marry the same woman and die with no offspring. They ask who's wife she will be in Heaven.

Jesus gives a pretty veiled response: Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong.

If I'm understanding Jesus correctly there is no marriage in Heaven. I assume that also means no sex. We are all just a bunch of Angels singing and dancing and worshipping. I'm not all that convinced that Heaven is as great as it sounds. It's probably better than the alternative of being on fire but not by much.

Bos Mutus
07-15-2015, 04:16 PM
Regarding what Heaven will be like: My understanding is that we will spend the whole time singing and dancing and worshipping God. To me that doesn't sound all that exciting.

In Mark 12:18-25 The Sadducees asked an interesting question. It is too bad they didn't ask more like this. Moses taught that if your brother's wife dies you should marry her and take care of her. They tell a story of seven brothers who in order marry the same woman and die with no offspring. They ask who's wife she will be in Heaven.

Jesus gives a pretty veiled response: Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong.

If I'm understanding Jesus correctly there is no marriage in Heaven. I assume that also means no sex. We are all just a bunch of Angels singing and dancing and worshipping. I'm not all that convinced that Heaven is as great as it sounds. It's probably better than the alternative of being on fire but not by much.

We will still have Free Will?

UncaRastus
07-15-2015, 04:19 PM
I am pretty sure that you can find 'Free Willy' on Netflix.

Rainmaker
07-15-2015, 05:31 PM
We will still have Free Will?



Who is the King of Tyre described Here.. http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=3114629? in EZK 28? Did he have free will?

Who is the morning star?

Doubt is the Devil who exists in the garden of your mind.....

Now, Chew on this and wash it down with some kool aide......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP318pbmo_g

LogDog
07-15-2015, 06:22 PM
So I thought I would piggyback on this thread. I grew up in Southwest Missouri as the son of a Pentecostal Pastor. I haven't been to church in years but I'm still friends with a lot of Christians just because I grew up with them or went to school with them. In the last year, two people I know have lost a family member.

The first person is a mother who lost her 20 year old son. He overdosed on methamphetamine. Even though he was passed out, his friends didn't want to take him to the hospital for fear of being arrested. They just dumped his body. His mother posted a rather long plea for those who were involved to come forward and help the investigation. She also went into this long rant about how she has prayed to God and that God told her that her son is in Heaven.

The other person is someone who I went to school with. Her brother committed suicide a few weeks ago. She has been posting things like, "God needed another Angel" or that her brother is in Heaven watching over her.

Here's my question, how can either of these people reconcile these posts with their beliefs? If a drug addict and someone who committed suicide are both in Heaven then isn't pretty much everyone going to make it? In both of these cases, I think the people are having a hard time dealing with the vengeful side of God. People believe in Christianity because they want to believe in something after this life. That provides comfort for them as they live their life. The problem is when loved ones die they are left with only two options. 1.) Their loved one is being tormented in Hell because the God they serve sent him there or 2.) Their loved one is in Heaven because everyone goes to Heaven which makes it pointless to pick any religion at all.

Any of you have friends like this? I really want to say something to these people but I figure it is probably best to just let them grieve. It would be an asshole move to point out that if there is a Heaven their loved ones aren't in it.
People believe loved ones who died have gone to Heaven do so as a coping mechanism to help them understand and accept the death of a loved one. It's their way of dealing with the issue of death. Is it a healthy way? Who knows but we do know that death occurs every day and at some point we'll all be affected by the death of a loved one or of a close friend. Some people are better at accepting and dealing with death than others and for them their coping mechanism work. Whether you believe in God or not, if a person grieving wants to believe their loved one is in Heaven then it's best to let them have that thought if it helps them with their grieving process. Personally, I don't believe in God or the concept of Heaven but if someone wants to think their loved one is with God or in Heaven then I have no problem with that.

SomeRandomGuy
07-15-2015, 07:29 PM
People believe loved ones who died have gone to Heaven do so as a coping mechanism to help them understand and accept the death of a loved one. It's their way of dealing with the issue of death. Is it a healthy way? Who knows but we do know that death occurs every day and at some point we'll all be affected by the death of a loved one or of a close friend. Some people are better at accepting and dealing with death than others and for them their coping mechanism work. Whether you believe in God or not, if a person grieving wants to believe their loved one is in Heaven then it's best to let them have that thought if it helps them with their grieving process. Personally, I don't believe in God or the concept of Heaven but if someone wants to think their loved one is with God or in Heaven then I have no problem with that.

It makes perfect sense for people to imagine their loved ones in Heaven after death. I get that part. What I'm saying is that in these specific cases the people involved have to pretty much abandon their religious beliefs to do it. In the case of the overdose, maybe the mom believes what Bos Mutus said above. Maybe her son even in his drug induced state of mind realized he was dying and asked god for forgiveness. I guess I can see that though it probably isn't likely. If he realized he was dying he would have called 911 instead. In the case of the suicide, I don't think you can ask for forgiveness before you kill yourself. If that were possible, wouldn't it make sense for every Christian to just off their self? Why bother trying to live out the rest of this life? Just ask God for forgiveness then put a bullet in your head.

In the two cases I mentioned, the people's belief in God is actually hindering their ability to cope. An atheist who doesn't believe in the afterlife would simply cope with the fact that their loved one is gone. Sort of like losing a pet dog. You are sad for a few days but then you just get over it. You don't comfort yourself by pretending your dog is in Heaven (well maybe some people do). If you believe in Hell and try to live your life to avoid going there that means admitting your family member is in Hell when they refused to live how you are living. If you don't believe that, why would you ever waste your time with religion?

Rainmaker
07-15-2015, 07:36 PM
Regarding what Heaven will be like: My understanding is that we will spend the whole time singing and dancing and worshipping God. To me that doesn't sound all that exciting.

In Mark 12:18-25 The Sadducees asked an interesting question. It is too bad they didn't ask more like this. Moses taught that if your brother's wife dies you should marry her and take care of her. They tell a story of seven brothers who in order marry the same woman and die with no offspring. They ask who's wife she will be in Heaven.

Jesus gives a pretty veiled response: Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong.

If I'm understanding Jesus correctly there is no marriage in Heaven. I assume that also means no sex. We are all just a bunch of Angels singing and dancing and worshipping. I'm not all that convinced that Heaven is as great as it sounds. It's probably better than the alternative of being on fire but not by much.

Jesus saves.... Moses invests....

Rainmaker
07-15-2015, 07:40 PM
People believe loved ones who died have gone to Heaven do so as a coping mechanism to help them understand and accept the death of a loved one. It's their way of dealing with the issue of death. Is it a healthy way? Who knows but we do know that death occurs every day and at some point we'll all be affected by the death of a loved one or of a close friend. Some people are better at accepting and dealing with death than others and for them their coping mechanism work. Whether you believe in God or not, if a person grieving wants to believe their loved one is in Heaven then it's best to let them have that thought if it helps them with their grieving process. Personally, I don't believe in God or the concept of Heaven but if someone wants to think their loved one is with God or in Heaven then I have no problem with that.

Agree, I think it's natural for most people to believe in something, because, The Human Mind has a need for Hope and Purpose.....

There is nothing more damaging to the human mind than believing in Nothing.... ,You end up Angry with Rest of the world (who naturally believe in a power greater than themselves) and resort to insulting people for believing in an after-life because, you are not able to perceive that something beyond your own day to day control or reason could possibly exist.

Believing in nothing greater than yourself is the left hand path recipe for ruin, that leads you to Thick-headed arrogance, unhappiness and finally depression...

It's no coincidence that the most murderous maniacs of the 20th century were Atheists.... Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol-Pot etc

USN - Retired
07-15-2015, 07:59 PM
Famous lines from the James Bond movie "Casino Royale"...

Steven Obanno: Do you believe in God, Mr. Le Chiffre?
Le Chiffre: No. I believe in a reasonable rate of return.

http://www.movpins.com/big/MV5BMTM2MzAxMDI2NV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwODY2MTUyNA/still-of-isaach-de-bankolé-and-mads-mikkelsen-in-casino-royale-(2006)-large-picture.jpg

http://www.movpins.com/big/MV5BMTM2MzAxMDI2NV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwODY2MTUyNA/still-of-isaach-de-bankolé-and-mads-mikkelsen-in-casino-royale-(2006)-large-picture.jpg

Bos Mutus
07-15-2015, 08:51 PM
Who is the King of Tyre described Here.. http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=3114629? in EZK 28? Did he have free will?

Who is the morning star?

Doubt is the Devil who exists in the garden of your mind.....

Now, Chew on this and wash it down with some kool aide you assholes......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP318pbmo_g


Agree, I think it's natural for most people to believe in something, because, The Human Mind has a need for Hope and Purpose.....

There is nothing more damaging to the human mind than believing in Nothing.... ,You end up Angry with Rest of the world (who naturally believe in a power greater than themselves) and resort to insulting people for believing in an after-life because, you are not able to perceive that something beyond your own day to day control or reason could possibly exist.

Believing in nothing greater than yourself is the left hand path recipe for ruin, that leads you to Thick-headed arrogance, unhappiness and finally depression...

It's no coincidence that the most murderous maniacs of the 20th century were Atheists.... Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol-Pot etc

Yes, we certainly wouldn't want a bunch of angry people who do nothing but throw insults around...

Rainmaker
07-15-2015, 09:10 PM
Yes, we certainly wouldn't want people who do nothing but throw insults around...

Very True Bos!

And because Misery loves company and since Most Atheists have no core values whatsoever..... They're always running around claiming that their opinion is "fact" and constantly trying to convince everyone else in the world not to believe in something that is natural for them to believe in.....

So,actually, when you think about it .....Atheists are a lot like Southern Baptists

Bos Mutus
07-15-2015, 10:05 PM
Very True Bos!

And because Misery loves company and since Most Atheists have no core values whatsoever..... They're always running around claiming that their opinion is "fact" and constantly trying to convince everyone else in the world not to believe in something that is natural for them to believe in.....

So,actually, when you think about it .....Atheists are a lot like Southern Baptists

Awww...you're just sayin' that, you bitter old disenfranchised Pope-hating Catholic.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-15-2015, 10:53 PM
http://youtu.be/zDHJ4ztnldQ

Absinthe Anecdote
07-15-2015, 11:06 PM
http://youtu.be/6RT6rL2UroE

LogDog
07-16-2015, 01:04 AM
Agree, I think it's natural for most people to believe in something, because, The Human Mind has a need for Hope and Purpose.....

There is nothing more damaging to the human mind than believing in Nothing.... ,You end up Angry with Rest of the world (who naturally believe in a power greater than themselves) and resort to insulting people for believing in an after-life because, you are not able to perceive that something beyond your own day to day control or reason could possibly exist.

Believing in nothing greater than yourself is the left hand path recipe for ruin, that leads you to Thick-headed arrogance, unhappiness and finally depression...
I don't know anyone who believes in "Nothing." Your comment is nonsensical because not believing in God isn't the same thing as believing in "Nothing." Atheists don't rely on a belief in an afterlife because they accept the reality of the world and have come to view death as a natural part of existence. By not believing in an afterlife or a God allows them to free themselves from the confining doctrine of religion based not on facts but on supernatural stories. You also make the mistake of believing atheists are angry at the world and insulting others for their religious beliefs because you just confirmed with that statement that you are projecting.


It's no coincidence that the most murderous maniacs of the 20th century were Atheists.... Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol-Pot etc
Hitler was raised a Catholic and invoked God's name in the call for eliminating the Jews. Stalin spent five year in the Greek Orthodox seminary and when he was the leader of Russia he tried to purge the ]U]influence[/U] of religion in Russia. Pol Pot was raised in both the Buddhist and Catholic religions and his goal was for a return to Buddhist moralism. Atheism wasn't the driving force behind their atrocities; it was their political/economic ideologies and their willingness to commit atrocities to retain power.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-16-2015, 01:09 AM
Agree, I think it's natural for most people to believe in something, because, The Human Mind has a need for Hope and Purpose.....

There is nothing more damaging to the human mind than believing in Nothing.... ,You end up Angry with Rest of the world (who naturally believe in a power greater than themselves) and resort to insulting people for believing in an after-life because, you are not able to perceive that something beyond your own day to day control or reason could possibly exist.

Believing in nothing greater than yourself is the left hand path recipe for ruin, that leads you to Thick-headed arrogance, unhappiness and finally depression...

It's no coincidence that the most murderous maniacs of the 20th century were Atheists.... Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol-Pot etc

This little speech sounds very hollow coming from someone who sees a conspiracy in nearly every aspect of modern life.

You heap endless scorn upon almost everything that pops up in the news. Believing in a creator myth doesn't sound like it has helped you avoid thick-headed arrogance and unhappiness.

LogDog
07-16-2015, 01:13 AM
It makes perfect sense for people to imagine their loved ones in Heaven after death. I get that part. What I'm saying is that in these specific cases the people involved have to pretty much abandon their religious beliefs to do it. In the case of the overdose, maybe the mom believes what Bos Mutus said above. Maybe her son even in his drug induced state of mind realized he was dying and asked god for forgiveness. I guess I can see that though it probably isn't likely. If he realized he was dying he would have called 911 instead. In the case of the suicide, I don't think you can ask for forgiveness before you kill yourself. If that were possible, wouldn't it make sense for every Christian to just off their self? Why bother trying to live out the rest of this life? Just ask God for forgiveness then put a bullet in your head.

In the two cases I mentioned, the people's belief in God is actually hindering their ability to cope. An atheist who doesn't believe in the afterlife would simply cope with the fact that their loved one is gone. Sort of like losing a pet dog. You are sad for a few days but then you just get over it. You don't comfort yourself by pretending your dog is in Heaven (well maybe some people do). If you believe in Hell and try to live your life to avoid going there that means admitting your family member is in Hell when they refused to live how you are living. If you don't believe that, why would you ever waste your time with religion?
What they're doing is either rationalizing or ignoring the circumstances involving their deaths. Again, those are coping mechanisms individuals use to deal with the situation. When someone you know dies the unwritten rule is you don't speak ill of them which is what the mother of the son who overdosed and the sister whose brother committed suicide did. If the mom thinks her son and the sister thinks her brother are in heaven then that's their way of coping and accepting these deaths.

LogDog
07-16-2015, 01:15 AM
This little speech sounds very hollow coming from someone who sees a conspiracy in nearly every aspect of modern life.

You heap endless scorn upon almost everything that pops up in the news. Believing in a creator myth doesn't sound like it has helped you avoid thick-headed arrogance and unhappiness.
I think he likes playing the role of a provocateur. Take what he posts with a grain of salt.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-16-2015, 01:27 AM
I think this is a very good list. I find reason 6 very compelling.


TEN REASONS TO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD

http://paladin.hubpages.com/hub/Ten-Reasons-To-NOT-Believe-In-God

REASON ONE: HE’S UNNECESSARY

The progress of human understanding has closed more and more of the gaps of ignorance that used to be filled by God. The scientific explanations for nature agree with processes and conditions we can actually see, measure and experience, requiring fewer assumptions (and fewer leaps of blind faith) than the belief that “God did it.” This is the test of “Occam’s razor.”

REASON TWO: HE’S IMPOSSIBLE TO PROVE

If God truly existed he would make it possible, especially for those who are skeptical, either by demonstration or by sound logical argument. He would know exactly what it would take to “open the heart” of every non-believer. Yet for more than two millenia the greatest philosophical and scientific minds of humanity - presumably inspired by God - have offered nothing more than circular and illogical arguments.

REASON THREE: HE’S ILLOGICAL

An omnipotent (all-powerful) and omniscient (all-knowing) God is an absurd logical paradox. He is either unable to create an impossible task for himself or is unable to perform it once created (because it's impossible). If God knows the past, present and future, these states are known quantities and God is unable to change them, and is not omnipotent. If they are subject to change, then God cannot know them with certainty, and is not omniscient. Additionally, if he knows his own actions in advance, even his free will is in question.

REASON FOUR: HE’S UNORIGINAL

The idea of God(s) has changed in form and number over the millenia, from many to few and eventually, to one. As numerous mythologies have come and gone, borrowing and discarding from each other along the way, only the generic idea of deities has persisted. This suggests not a single, specific eternal god but a fluid and evolving human imagining of the supernatural.

REASON FIVE: HE’S TOO MUCH LIKE US

Every aspect of the mythology of God is limited by human circumstance and understanding. Like humans, he is jealous, vengeful, misogynist and cruel. Like humans of the time, his “holy” books reveal an extremely limited knowledge of the physical universe. Like humans, his religious identity is geographical, depending largely on one's nation or culture of origin. This sounds like a god created in Man's image, and not vice versa.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? Epicurus


REASON SIX: HE’S INCOMPETENT

He abandoned his innocent and ignorant first human creations, Adam and Eve, to be corrupted by a talking (?) serpent in the Garden of Eden, then blamed them for their failure. When their descendents went further astray, he killed them all and tried again with Noah's family. When their descendents failed as well, he sacrificed his son to assume the debt of their failure. How many fixes does an all-knowing and all-powerful God need until he gets his human creation right?

REASON SEVEN: HE’S INCOHERENT

If God truly existed, he would speak to each of us personally, clearly and conclusively. He would not rely on fallible priests, rabbis and mullas to represent him. His “holy” books are ambiguous and full of contradictions and inconsistencies, and there are countless contrary religions and denominations, suggesting a human, not divine, origin.

REASON EIGHT: HE’S ASLEEP ON THE JOB

According to the religious texts of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, God used to personally intervene constantly in human affairs through miracles, commandments, etc. He spoke clearly to some in his own voice or, more often, through angels. This was millenia ago, and any supposed witnesses or participants are lost to history. Now there is only silence, and prayers go unanswered.

REASON NINE: YOU DON’T BELIEVE IN OTHER GODS

With regard to most gods, you consider it perfectly normal and rational to not believe, and your skepticism is well-placed. Yet for one reason or another, you've chosen to set your skepticism aside and accept one particular deity as genuine. If those believers in other myths are mistaken, perhaps you're mistaken in your belief too.

REASON TEN: YOU DON’T REALLY BELIEVE IN HIM, EITHER

God is supposedly an all-pervasive deity who sees your every action and knows your every thought, and he decides your eternal destiny in either Heaven or Hell. Given the stakes, this should be the overriding concern in every moment of the life of every believer. Is it for you?

Absinthe Anecdote
07-16-2015, 01:34 AM
I think he likes playing the role of a provocateur. Take what he posts with a grain of salt.

He used to be funny once in a while, but it has been a long time since posted anything good.

LogDog
07-16-2015, 01:39 AM
I think this is a very good list. I find reason 6 very compelling.
I'm sure people can come up with a lot of reasons for believing or not believing in God. Those who have tried to convince me God exists fail because they can't answer simply questions like:

1. After killing Abel, Cain was sent away and took a wife. Where in the heck did she come from if the only people back then were Adam, Eve, and their kids?

2. When the Pharaoh refused to let the Jews leave Egypt God killed Pharaoh's first born son as well as the first born sons of all Egyptians. Why didn't God just kill the Pharaoh?

3. And just for silliness, could Joesph sue Mary for divorce on the grounds of adultery? After all, Jesus wasn't from Joesph's loins.

Those who believe and those who don't can neither prove or disprove the existence of God. If you want to believe or not to believe that's okay but just don't try to push your beliefs as fact because they aren't. They're just your opinion.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-16-2015, 02:10 AM
I'm sure people can come up with a lot of reasons for believing or not believing in God. Those who have tried to convince me God exists fail because they can't answer simply questions like:

1. After killing Abel, Cain was sent away and took a wife. Where in the heck did she come from if the only people back then were Adam, Eve, and their kids?

2. When the Pharaoh refused to let the Jews leave Egypt God killed Pharaoh's first born son as well as the first born sons of all Egyptians. Why didn't God just kill the Pharaoh?

3. And just for silliness, could Joesph sue Mary for divorce on the grounds of adultery? After all, Jesus wasn't from Joesph's loins.

Those who believe and those who don't can neither prove or disprove the existence of God. If you want to believe or not to believe that's okay but just don't try to push your beliefs as fact because they aren't. They're just your opinion.

I don't understand why you are giving believers in God a free pass.

They make some very fantastic claims, with zero proof.

Fantastic claims demand compelling evidence.

The mountain of inconsistencies in religion is enormous. There are many good reasons to reject it.

LogDog
07-16-2015, 02:30 AM
I don't understand why you are giving believers in God a free pass.

They make some very fantastic claims, with zero proof.

Fantastic claims demand compelling evidence.

The mountain of inconsistencies in religion is enormous. There are many good reasons to reject it.
I'm not giving them a pass as evidenced by my questions. I pointed out inconsistencies in the first two questions and for fun asked the third question just to confuse them.

People who believe in God aren't going to change their minds because of inconsistencies. They'll use simple, but faulty logic such as "It's God's Will" or "We don't know God's Plan" to explain away the inconsistencies. It's not a rational method but then belief in God is not based on rational thinking. It it was then they wouldn't belief in a omniscient being. They'll change their minds when something of significance happens causing them to honestly reexamine their beliefs. Belief systems do not rely on proof or logic which is why it is hard to argue with someone who believes or doesn't believe in God. Being a atheist or a theist are alike in both are based in a system of beliefs that can neither be proved or disproved.

Rainmaker
07-16-2015, 03:31 AM
Awww...you're just sayin' that, you bitter old disenfranchised Pope-hating Catholic.

Yes, But I've left the Roman Catholic Church and now go with the old (pre-vatican II) version...

Rainmaker
07-16-2015, 04:06 AM
This little speech sounds very hollow coming from someone who sees a conspiracy in nearly every aspect of modern life.

Well, Maybe our friend Mr. Carlin can explain it in terms that you can better appreciate...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QOVdE_3anU


You heap endless scorn upon almost everything that pops up in the news. Believing in a creator myth doesn't sound like it has helped you avoid thick-headed arrogance and unhappiness.

Actually I'm very happy these days. Because, My belief system allows me to live in Caesar's world.... Without living only for Caesar's world...... As far as arrogance, I try my best to guard against it, as I've had my life laid low too many times for that..... Pride cometh before the fall.... NomSayin?

Rainmaker
07-16-2015, 03:11 PM
I don't know anyone who believes in "Nothing." Your comment is nonsensical because not believing in God isn't the same thing as believing in "Nothing." Atheists don't rely on a belief in an afterlife because they accept the reality of the world and have come to view death as a natural part of existence. By not believing in an afterlife or a God allows them to free themselves from the confining doctrine of religion based not on facts but on supernatural stories. You also make the mistake of believing atheists are angry at the world and insulting others for their religious beliefs because you just confirmed with that statement that you are projecting.


Hitler was raised a Catholic and invoked God's name in the call for eliminating the Jews. Stalin spent five year in the Greek Orthodox seminary and when he was the leader of Russia he tried to purge the ]U]influence[/U] of religion in Russia. Pol Pot was raised in both the Buddhist and Catholic religions and his goal was for a return to Buddhist moralism. Atheism wasn't the driving force behind their atrocities; it was their political/economic ideologies and their willingness to commit atrocities to retain power.

Darwin, Einstein, and Isaac Newton were also all religious...... Rainmaker refuses to be seduced by anyone's Dogma. Insha'Allah

Absinthe Anecdote
07-16-2015, 04:19 PM
Darwin, Einstein, and Isaac Newton were also all religious...... Rainmaker refuses to be seduced by anyone's Dogma. Insha'Allah

Non responsive gibberish.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-16-2015, 04:21 PM
http://youtu.be/HVuw1wEuaAQ

LogDog
07-16-2015, 07:17 PM
Darwin, Einstein, and Isaac Newton were also all religious...... Rainmaker refuses to be seduced by anyone's Dogma. Insha'Allah
Figures, more rhetorical nonsense.

Rainmaker
07-17-2015, 05:30 PM
Figures, more rhetorical nonsense.

What's nonsense is anyone trying to make an argument that Hitler and Stalin were really Atheistic Catholics because their parents made them attend church in 19th century Europe.

LogDog
07-17-2015, 06:22 PM
What's nonsense is anyone trying to make an argument that Hitler and Stalin were really Atheistic Catholics because their parents made them attend church in 19th century Europe.
Your argument is what is people with an education level above the fourth grade call wrong. What you posted was a claim about Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot killing millions due to their being atheists. What I posted was it was about their political/economic ideologies and their need to remain in power as the reasons for their killing millions.

Get it, now?

Rainmaker
07-17-2015, 06:26 PM
Your argument is what is people with an education level above the fourth grade call wrong. What you posted was a claim about Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot killing millions due to their being atheists. What I posted was it was about their political/economic ideologies and their need to remain in power as the reasons for their killing millions.

Get it, now?

Yes Thanks for the clarification for the rest of us non Mensa members...

The church is a good check on state power, which exactly why totalitarian socialist regimes always target it.

Try Picking up a history book (written before 1970 or so) before spewing your revisionist BS you learned while getting your Homeland security MBA at UMUC. Genius.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-17-2015, 06:39 PM
Let's think about the story of Jesus making our salvation possible for a moment, more importantly what it indicates about the nature of God.

God wanted to forgive us humans for our sins.

He could have just said, "You are forgiven." He could have written it in big letters on the face of the moon.

Instead, he sends Jesus down to earth to be brutally tortured and sacrificed in order to forgive us.

WTF?

What kind of barbaric savage God are you Christians worshiping?

Think about it for a minute. Your all-knowing and all-powerful God could not think of a way to forgive us that did not involve a human sacrifice?

Your peace loving and merciful God chooses violence, again and again.

Start using your mind and thinking about what is in the Bible.

The people that taught you not to question the Bible were wrong!

There isn't anything divine in it. It is just an old book that is extremely outdated as a moral code.

It was written by a bunch of extremely violent tribal people who lived in the desert.

And the interesting thing, if you are a Christian, you know what I am saying is true.

You reject bits and pieces of the Bible everyday of your life.

Take the final step and reject the whole thing.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-17-2015, 07:07 PM
The next time you take communion at your church, think about how violent and blood thirsty your God is.




1 Corinthians 11:24-25New King James Version

24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat;[b] this is My body which is broken[c] for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

Your savior is asking you to symbolically partake in a bloody ritual that celebrates violence.

He wants you to symbolically eat his flesh and drink his blood.

Don't you think it is about time to give up superstitious nonsense and rituals.

WTF?

If you are going to symbolically drink blood, why don't you dance around a campfire and scream like wild injuns too?

LogDog
07-17-2015, 07:48 PM
Yes Thanks for the clarification for the rest of us non Mensa members...

The church is a good check on state power, which exactly why totalitarian socialist regimes always target it.

Try Picking up a history book (written before 1970 or so) before spewing your revisionist BS you learned while getting your Homeland security MBA at UMUC. Genius.
You proved my point with the above statement.

As for the Church being a check on the state, if you check your history book you'll find out the Church and the state worked hand-in-hand in many cases in Western Europe. During the Middle Ages the Church was the de facto government although the actual government (monarchies) controlled the political and civil life of the nation. Having any religion in charge of a government is just as much a dictatorship as having any dictator.

As for revisionist comment, prove me wrong and show the links from a reliable (trustworthy) sources.

Rainmaker
07-17-2015, 08:54 PM
You proved my point with the above statement.

Proved what point? That Hitler and Stalin went to church when they were kids? newsflash...... everyone did that in the 19th century Europe.

I guess that means they weren't really "A-theist"enough? Hitler didn't really order Goebbels to persecute the Catholic Church and Stalin didn't really send 20 million Christians to the Gulag. It's all a vast right wing conspiracy...


As for the Church being a check on the state, if you check your history book you'll find out the Church and the state worked hand-in-hand in many cases in Western Europe. During the Middle Ages the Church was the de facto government although the actual government (monarchies) controlled the political and civil life of the nation. Having any religion in charge of a government is just as much a dictatorship as having any dictator.

No shit? So, the church was in power in the middle ages....Yes, Lenin in other news water is wet and the sky is blue.... The church is a check on the state and the state is a check on the church.



As for revisionist comment, prove me wrong and show the links from a reliable (trustworthy) sources.

Define Reliable? what does that mean, whatever you approve of? Huff po? MSNBC, Jezzebel.com?

How bout wikipedia? does that have your stamp of approval?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union

Or maybe something more "objective" and left wing... How bout the New York Times?..

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/13/weekinreview/word-for-word-case-against-nazis-hitler-s-forces-planned-destroy-german.html

I don't know why I bother tying to educate you brainwashed bozos anymore. Tell, you what..... since you all have your degrees and cake government jobs. You probably already know everything there is to know.....So, Why don't you enlightened Christ Hating Atheists just sit around in a utopian circle and smoke pot and jerk each other off instead?

Rainmaker
07-17-2015, 09:01 PM
It was written by a bunch of extremely violent tribal people who lived in the desert.


Why don't you just come out and say it was the Jews? ANTI-SEMITE!

Absinthe Anecdote
07-17-2015, 09:18 PM
Why don't you just come out and say it was the Jews? ANTI-SEMITE!

Hating on the Jews is your turf, which makes your affinity for Christianity all the more puzzling.

Why sign onto a religion that sprang forth from a people you constantly accuse of fucking up the world?

My point is that the religious text that Chistianity is based on was written by tribal people.

The tribal mentality tends to be inherently violent. Just looked at the entire Middle East today, it is still governed by tribal factions and it is violent and very unstable.

You like to ridicule people for drinking Kool Aid, but you have swallowed an enormous amount of religious Kool Aid.

Do you still make superstious hand gestures in the sign of the cross and utter absurd little prayers in stressful situations?

LogDog
07-17-2015, 09:41 PM
Proved what point? That Hitler and Stalin went to church when they were kids? newsflash...... everyone did that in the 19th century Europe.

I guess that means they weren't really "A-theist"enough? Hitler didn't really order Goebbels to persecute the Catholic Church and Stalin didn't really send 20 million Christians to the Gulag. It's all a vast right wing conspiracy...
But their actions in killing millions wasn't because of religion but for political/economic reasons and to retain power. What part of that can't you understand? You only want to focus on them being atheists but that's like complaining about you getting a speeding ticket because you drive a red car and not on the fact you were going 50 mph in a 25 mph zone.



No shit? So, the church was in power in the middle ages....Yes, Lenin in other news water is wet and the sky is blue.... The church is a check on the state and the state is a check on the church.
Please tell us by what right any church has the right to be a check on government and how do they go about doing that. While you're at it, please tell us which church (religion, sect, etc.) is the one that does this and why only them.


Define Reliable? what does that mean, whatever you approve of? Huff po? MSNBC, Jezzebel.com?

How bout wikipedia? does that have your stamp of approval?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union

Or maybe something more "objective" and left wing... How bout the New York Times?..

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/13/weekinreview/word-for-word-case-against-nazis-hitler-s-forces-planned-destroy-german.html

Wikipedia is basically worthless because almost any article can be edited by anyone including those who want to "spin" the information in their favor. Wikipedia tries, but isn't always successful, in catching these edits.

Per your NY Times article, Hitler made a pact with the Catholic Church.


Having already witnessed fairly smooth relations after the 1929 Lantern treaty between Mussolini's fascist regime and the church in Italy, many German Catholics ''accepted the Nazi proposition'' of peaceful coexistence. In July 1933, a Concordat was signed between the Reich and the Holy See.

''For the first time since the Middle Ages, the Reich itself had entered into an agreement with the Roman Catholic Church,'' the outline says. ''Moreover, the new treaty was apparently entirely to the advantage of the church. In return for the retreat of German Catholicism from the political scene, the church was guaranteed, by international treaty, freedom for Catholic organizations [and] maintenance of denominational schools and youth education.''

All Hitler seemed to demand in return was ''a pledge of loyalty by the clergy to the Reich government and a promise that Catholic religious instruction would emphasize the patriotic duties of the Christian citizen.'' This posed no big problem for the church, the outline asserts. ''Since it had always been the practice of the Catholic Church to abide by established governments and to promote patriotic convictions among the faithful, these stipulations of the Concordat were no more than legalizations of an existing custom. The Concordat was hailed by church and state authorities as marking the beginning of a close and fruitful collaboration.''


I don't know why I bother tying to educate you brainwashed bozos anymore. Tell, you what..... since you all have your degrees and cake government jobs. You probably already know everything there is to know.....So, Why don't you enlightened Christ Hating Atheists just sit around in a utopian circle and smoke pot and jerk each other off instead?
Perhaps the reason you bother is because for once in you life you are learning something instead of being the perpetual ventriloquist's dummy.

LogDog
07-17-2015, 09:59 PM
Here's a quote that will blow someone's mind completely.

We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls… We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity … in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people. - Adolph Hitler

Speech in Passau, 27 October 1928

Rainmaker
07-18-2015, 03:34 AM
Here's a quote that will blow someone's mind completely.

We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls… We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity … in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people. - Adolph Hitler

Speech in Passau, 27 October 1928

Yeah. Big deal. The Nazis put out propaganda on Positive Christianity beforehand.... Since, 99% of Germans were Christians. The Nazis had no other choice but, to work with the Churches.... INITIALLY.

They never could've come to power if they hadn't..... The Hitler of 1932 was very different than the Hitler of 1939. The German people would've been idiots to support him, If it had been otherwise.

After the Nazis seized power, They arrested Thousands of Pastors that protested against them

That's what Atheist Totalitarian Socialists do. They Lie and Hide their agenda.

I guess you're still denying that the Nazis targeted the Church opposition because someone credible (like Brian Williams) didn't tell you about it?

Support for Hitler was a result of backlash against the Big Bankster Dick that Germany got rammed up their ass after WWI......And The disgusting, corrupt, morally decadent Weimer Republic Politicians that enabled them. sound familiar yet? Anarchy ALWAYS leads to dictatorship.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-21-2015, 07:55 PM
Yeah. Big deal. The Nazis put out propaganda on Positive Christianity beforehand.... Since, 99% of Germans were Christians. The Nazis had no other choice but, to work with the Churches.... INITIALLY.

They never could've come to power if they hadn't..... The Hitler of 1932 was very different than the Hitler of 1939. The German people would've been idiots to support him, If it had been otherwise.

After the Nazis seized power, They arrested Thousands of Pastors that protested against them

That's what Atheist Totalitarian Socialists do. They Lie and Hide their agenda.

I guess you're still denying that the Nazis targeted the Church opposition because someone credible (like Brian Williams) didn't tell you about it?

Support for Hitler was a result of backlash against the Big Bankster Dick that Germany got rammed up their ass after WWI......And The disgusting, corrupt, morally decadent Weimer Republic Politicians that enabled them. sound familiar yet? Anarchy ALWAYS leads to dictatorship.

Atheism and socialism aren't joined at the hip.

Just because some socialists adopted atheism isn't a valid reason to cling to superstitious beliefs in Gods, Angels and Devils.

Rainmaker
07-21-2015, 08:09 PM
It's not that All atheists are totalitarian socialists. But, that all totalitarian socialists are Atheists.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-21-2015, 08:38 PM
It's not that All atheists are totalitarian socialists. But, that all totalitarian socialists are Atheists.

And?

Are you using that as justification to continue believing in superstitions such as prayer, demons, Satan, and the Holy Ghost?

Rainmaker
07-21-2015, 09:02 PM
And?

Are you using that as justification to continue believing in superstitions such as prayer, demons, Satan, and the Holy Ghost?

Just Who are you trying to convince us or you? Thou doth protest too much!

Absinthe Anecdote
07-21-2015, 09:12 PM
Just Who are you trying to convince us or you? Thou doth protest too much!

No, just pointing out that you are unable refute the absurdity of prayer, and so you took the discussion off topic and tried to make it about Hitler and Stalin.

garhkal
07-22-2015, 02:57 AM
I think this is a very good list. I find reason 6 very compelling.

I find 7 and 8 to be the bigger reasons i no longer believe, along with 3.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-22-2015, 03:33 AM
I find 7 and 8 to be the bigger reasons i no longer believe, along with 3.

Reasons 7 and 8 are big ones too, heck all all ten reasons are very strong.

I'll post them again for those who missed it.



TEN REASONS TO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD

http://paladin.hubpages.com/hub/Ten-Reasons-To-NOT-Believe-In-God

REASON ONE: HE’S UNNECESSARY

The progress of human understanding has closed more and more of the gaps of ignorance that used to be filled by God. The scientific explanations for nature agree with processes and conditions we can actually see, measure and experience, requiring fewer assumptions (and fewer leaps of blind faith) than the belief that “God did it.” This is the test of “Occam’s razor.”

REASON TWO: HE’S IMPOSSIBLE TO PROVE

If God truly existed he would make it possible, especially for those who are skeptical, either by demonstration or by sound logical argument. He would know exactly what it would take to “open the heart” of every non-believer. Yet for more than two millenia the greatest philosophical and scientific minds of humanity - presumably inspired by God - have offered nothing more than circular and illogical arguments.

REASON THREE: HE’S ILLOGICAL

An omnipotent (all-powerful) and omniscient (all-knowing) God is an absurd logical paradox. He is either unable to create an impossible task for himself or is unable to perform it once created (because it's impossible). If God knows the past, present and future, these states are known quantities and God is unable to change them, and is not omnipotent. If they are subject to change, then God cannot know them with certainty, and is not omniscient. Additionally, if he knows his own actions in advance, even his free will is in question.

REASON FOUR: HE’S UNORIGINAL

The idea of God(s) has changed in form and number over the millenia, from many to few and eventually, to one. As numerous mythologies have come and gone, borrowing and discarding from each other along the way, only the generic idea of deities has persisted. This suggests not a single, specific eternal god but a fluid and evolving human imagining of the supernatural.

REASON FIVE: HE’S TOO MUCH LIKE US

Every aspect of the mythology of God is limited by human circumstance and understanding. Like humans, he is jealous, vengeful, misogynist and cruel. Like humans of the time, his “holy” books reveal an extremely limited knowledge of the physical universe. Like humans, his religious identity is geographical, depending largely on one's nation or culture of origin. This sounds like a god created in Man's image, and not vice versa.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? Epicurus


REASON SIX: HE’S INCOMPETENT

He abandoned his innocent and ignorant first human creations, Adam and Eve, to be corrupted by a talking (?) serpent in the Garden of Eden, then blamed them for their failure. When their descendents went further astray, he killed them all and tried again with Noah's family. When their descendents failed as well, he sacrificed his son to assume the debt of their failure. How many fixes does an all-knowing and all-powerful God need until he gets his human creation right?

REASON SEVEN: HE’S INCOHERENT

If God truly existed, he would speak to each of us personally, clearly and conclusively. He would not rely on fallible priests, rabbis and mullas to represent him. His “holy” books are ambiguous and full of contradictions and inconsistencies, and there are countless contrary religions and denominations, suggesting a human, not divine, origin.

REASON EIGHT: HE’S ASLEEP ON THE JOB

According to the religious texts of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, God used to personally intervene constantly in human affairs through miracles, commandments, etc. He spoke clearly to some in his own voice or, more often, through angels. This was millenia ago, and any supposed witnesses or participants are lost to history. Now there is only silence, and prayers go unanswered.

REASON NINE: YOU DON’T BELIEVE IN OTHER GODS

With regard to most gods, you consider it perfectly normal and rational to not believe, and your skepticism is well-placed. Yet for one reason or another, you've chosen to set your skepticism aside and accept one particular deity as genuine. If those believers in other myths are mistaken, perhaps you're mistaken in your belief too.

REASON TEN: YOU DON’T REALLY BELIEVE IN HIM, EITHER

God is supposedly an all-pervasive deity who sees your every action and knows your every thought, and he decides your eternal destiny in either Heaven or Hell. Given the stakes, this should be the overriding concern in every moment of the life of every believer. Is it for you?

Bos Mutus
07-22-2015, 03:43 AM
Reasons 7 and 8 are big ones too, heck all all ten reasons are very strong.

I'll post them again for those who missed it.

For most of those, believers might simply say Gods ways are not mans ways...I find #10 interesting...if I believed in the after life and the guy I thought was the path to get there said "sell everything you have and give to the poor...its gonna be all but impossible for a rich guy to get into heaven"....well,

Absinthe Anecdote
07-22-2015, 04:37 AM
For most of those, believers might simply say Gods ways are not mans ways...I find #10 interesting...if I believed in the after life and the guy I thought was the path to get there said "sell everything you have and give to the poor...its gonna be all but impossible for a rich guy to get into heaven"....well,

I've used that one on Sandjames and pissed him off royally. TJ gets into trouble with that one too, that's why I said he wasn't really a Christian and he just couldn't understand it.

Most people don't really know what they claim to believe in because they haven't read the bible.

They are only John 3:16 Christians. Like a little kid in a game of tag, they claim they are safe because their hand is on the base.

TJMAC77SP
07-22-2015, 10:01 AM
I've used that one on Sandjames and pissed him off royally. TJ gets into trouble with that one too, that's why I said he wasn't really a Christian and he just couldn't understand it.

Most people don't really know what they claim to believe in because they haven't read the bible.

They are only John 3:16 Christians. Like a little kid in a game of tag, they claim they are safe because their hand is on the base.

No TJ got everything. What he particularly 'got' was the complete debacle of a thread where he is at the beginning a fundamentalist Christian and by the end wasn't a good enough Christian. The whole discussion was illustrative of these threads............ridiculous, made very humorous by the failure of the posters to see that fact. I actually was feeling a little guilty by the end of it. I am sure it was a win in your spreadsheet though.

At least RJ just posts salacious memes and doesn't kill our brain cells with massive diatribes.

Continue though. I know you are missing SJ

Absinthe Anecdote
07-22-2015, 12:31 PM
No TJ got everything. What he particularly 'got' was the complete debacle of a thread where he is at the beginning a fundamentalist Christian and by the end wasn't a good enough Christian. The whole discussion was illustrative of these threads............ridiculous, made very humorous by the failure of the posters to see that fact. I actually was feeling a little guilty by the end of it. I am sure it was a win in your spreadsheet though.

At least RJ just posts salacious memes and doesn't kill our brain cells with massive diatribes.

Continue though. I know you are missing SJ

I don't think I've ever called you a fundy. I'm sure you've defended a fundamentalist viewpoint before, and that I completely disassembled your defense of it.

Which is probably what led me to point out that you aren't really a Christian from a fundamentalist perspective.

TJMAC77SP
07-22-2015, 08:43 PM
I don't think I've ever called you a fundy. I'm sure you've defended a fundamentalist viewpoint before, and that I completely disassembled your defense of it.

Which is probably what led me to point out that you aren't really a Christian from a fundamentalist perspective.

Another spread sheet win?

Actually I don't remember the qualifier...'from a fundamentalist perspective'. Look I get that looking back you realize that thread was pretty asinine and you (and others) got hooked into defending some pretty far fetched positions. I understand, its a bit embarrassing. No harm, no foul.

I have never defended a particular belief of any religion. I am sure you know that but the narrative must be pursued. I have defended the rights of people of all faiths (to whatever level they hold that faith) to actually have a belief system I even defend your right to call yourself an atheist although from my perspective you are more of an anti-Christian and that isn't nearly the same thing but whatever. You have the same rights as the religious. Of course you are subject to same scorn for practicing intolerance as those you castigate for the same thing.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-22-2015, 08:49 PM
REASON FOUR: HE’S UNORIGINAL

The idea of God(s) has changed in form and number over the millenia, from many to few and eventually, to one. As numerous mythologies have come and gone, borrowing and discarding from each other along the way, only the generic idea of deities has persisted. This suggests not a single, specific eternal god but a fluid and evolving human imagining of the supernatural.

We can clealy see this happening with Christianity, even in present day as an increasing number of versions of the bible are being released.

The texts are revised at the whims of humans, new churches are spawned while others wither over the course of time. There isn't anything holy about the Holy Bible, it is totally subject to the will of humanity.

A clear indication that God is man's creation, and not the other way around.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-22-2015, 08:53 PM
Another spread sheet win?

Actually I don't remember the qualifier...'from a fundamentalist perspective'. Look I get that looking back you realize that thread was pretty asinine and you (and others) got hooked into defending some pretty far fetched positions. I understand, its a bit embarrassing. No harm, no foul.

I have never defended a particular belief of any religion. I am sure you know that but the narrative must be pursued. I have defended the rights of people of all faiths (to whatever level they hold that faith) to actually have a belief system I even defend your right to call yourself an atheist although from my perspective you are more of an anti-Christian and that isn't nearly the same thing but whatever. You have the same rights as the religious. Of course you are subject to same scorn for practicing intolerance as those you castigate for the same thing.

I'll double down on the claim that you aren't really a Christian, at least not a practicing one.

While you can make an argument for being a believer in Christ, you certainly aren't a follower of Christ.

I got that from your own description of how you live.

TJMAC77SP
07-22-2015, 09:24 PM
I'll double down on the claim that you aren't really a Christian, at least not a practicing one.

While you can make an argument for being a believer in Christ, you certainly aren't a follower of Christ.

I got that from your own description of how you live.

I have never argued the last points

I am not surprised but should be at the hubris you display in dictating to anyone religious (when you yourself are a self-described 'atheist') who is or isn't a Christian.

Aren't a Christian. Not a practicing one. Believer in Christ. Not a follower of Christ. You are already down the same rabbit hole from the 'you are a Christian fundamentalist....you aren't really a Christian thread'

Funny that your post here reminds me of a Baptist who once told me that I wasn't a Christian because I was a Catholic. I found his hubris to be funny as well.

Rainmaker
07-22-2015, 09:58 PM
I have never argued the last points

I am not surprised but should be at the hubris you display in dictating to anyone religious (when you yourself are a self-described 'atheist') who is or isn't a Christian.

Aren't a Christian. Not a practicing one. Believer in Christ. Not a follower of Christ. You are already down the same rabbit hole from the 'you are a Christian fundamentalist....you aren't really a Christian thread'

Funny that your post here reminds me of a Baptist who once told me that I wasn't a Christian because I was a Catholic. I found his hubris to be funny as well.

TJ, In order to understand the man's absolute hatred for Jesus. You first must understand that absintheanticdote is suffering from a terrible case of Stockholm Syndrome after being Mind-Fucked by the Southern Baptists Preacher's daughter.

It causes him to lash out. But, the anger is necessary for him to break the bonds of attachment to that Jezebell.

Rainmaker is confident he'll bounce back soon (as we pray and wait in joyful hope for our friend to recover)

We all have our cross to bear. Metaphorically speaking....Nomsayin?

Absinthe Anecdote
07-23-2015, 12:18 PM
I have never argued the last points


Then why are you hitting me over the head for saying it?



I am not surprised but should be at the hubris you display in dictating to anyone religious (when you yourself are a self-described 'atheist') who is or isn't a Christian.

Aren't a Christian. Not a practicing one. Believer in Christ. Not a follower of Christ. You are already down the same rabbit hole from the 'you are a Christian fundamentalist....you aren't really a Christian thread'

Funny that your post here reminds me of a Baptist who once told me that I wasn't a Christian because I was a Catholic. I found his hubris to be funny as well.

The reason I do that is because the vast majority of self-labeled Christians who engage me on this site have very little knowledge of their religion.

I am actively encouraging them to read their bibles and think about their religion. The decision is always their's to make.

I firmly believe the road to atheism starts with reading the bible. I will never effect an overnight conversion of a Christian to an atheist, but I just might start them on a path that they finish on their own.

Lastly, I have little respect for respect for the "John 3:16 only" Christians who think all they have to do is believe.

According to the bible, that just isn't so. These types of Christians frustrate me to no end because they help propagate a superstitious myth that they haven't even studied or thought about.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-23-2015, 12:43 PM
TJ, In order to understand the man's absolute hatred for Jesus. You first must understand that absintheanticdote is suffering from a terrible case of Stockholm Syndrome after being Mind-Fucked by the Southern Baptists Preacher's daughter.

It causes him to lash out. But, the anger is necessary for him to break the bonds of attachment to that Jezebell.

Good memory. Yes, I did marry into Southern Baptist family, and it was a tough relationship to manage, but that isn't the primary source of my conversion to atheism.

I attribute my conversion to atheism with what is in the bible.




Rainmaker is confident he'll bounce back soon (as we pray and wait in joyful hope for our friend to recover)

We all have our cross to bear. Metaphorically speaking....Nomsayin?

I understand that you are joking, but I do invite you to pray for me.


Jesus Curses a Fig Tree

Matthew 21:18-22 New International Version

18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.

20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.

21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

According to the bible, you should be able get what you ask for. Provided that you believe.

You do believe, don't you?

Better yet, why not pray for a mountain to go throw its self into the sea? Pray for ISIS to disappear, or for some of your political dreams to come true.

According to the bible, you can receive whatever you ask for, even if it is something as silly as killing a fig tree or telling a mountain to go jump into the sea.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-23-2015, 05:27 PM
Our only purpose on the Earth is to make choices, Friend.. Were you are, I have been AND Where I am you will be.... you see In God's math 1+1 =1

You appear to be agreeing with me, because in the bible, God is every bit as illogical as 1+1=1.

That inscription from a gravestone you just quoted is a compelling reminder of our short lives.

Why waste yours believing in myths from one of the the most violent and unstable corners of our planet?

The homeland of earth's three Abrahamic religions continues to be perpetually fucked up and backwards.

God and the power of prayer, haven't fixed all the violent tribal nonsense in that region.

Your Jesus has had 2015 years and counting to clean that shithole up.

What is the holdup?

You true believers must not be praying for him to come back.

Why don't you start by praying for a few fig trees to die, it will be good practice.


Jesus Curses a Fig Tree

Matthew 21:18-22 New International Version

18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.

20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.

21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

No matter how much you believe, you can not make fig trees wither on the spot as Jesus promises, nor can you make mountains fall in the sea.

If you want to make a choice to pattern your view of the universe on an ancient book of stories from the desert that is filled with inaccuracies and absolute nonsense, that is on you.

I however will continue to urge you and others to be rational and think about how your choice to believe in these tribal myths harms society.

Passing these myths from ancient Jerusalem along to your children as fact, harms us as a species.

Rainmaker
07-23-2015, 05:53 PM
Good memory. Yes, I did marry into Southern Baptist family, and it was a tough relationship to manage, but that isn't the primary source of my conversion to atheism.

I attribute my conversion to atheism with what is in the bible.

I don't have any answers for you.....Currently I'm dabbling in Rosicrucian Philosophy and Observing Pre-Vatican 2 Practices in my own private services which I conduct and attend alone on the Island Beach at Sunrise or out on my Boat on the river or walkingat dusk on my property, I think God likes it better that way..... God is not in the church. Sometimes there are holy men there. sometimes not.

I also attend the local Methodist church on Sundays with my Family, (as more of a social event and to be around Like minded people).

It's clear that you have an axe to grind with Religion in general and Christians in Particular. That's fine. I have no problem with that.

But, I'm not rolling over for you to impose your belief system on me.........And I don't agree that America would be a better place without the Christian Influence. This ain't no beetles song....


I understand that you are joking, but I do invite you to pray for me.

When my life was laid low by circumstances, I found it impossible to pray..... A wise man told me to start every prayer like this. "Thank you Lord for another day of Life free from pain"............ For a long time that was all I could say.....and I would just start and end with that.... My recovery started from there . That one piece of advice saved my life......I would advise anyone in the depths of depression to try to do that one thing and it could help you..... or maybe not...But, what can it hurt? ..........

I don't ask for things....I imagine them....When we speak words, We create Imaging in our Imagination that creates our mindset and becomes our reality. The Earth is not Heaven. It's Hell. We're already there, So, Our only purpose on the Earth is to make right choices and help each other to get the hell out of here.


According to the bible, you should be able get what you ask for. Provided that you believe.
You do believe, don't you?

Yep..... Friend.. Were you are, I have been AND Where I am you will be.... you see In God's math 1+1 =1


Better yet, why not pray for a mountain to go throw its self into the sea? Pray for ISIS to disappear, or for some of your political dreams to come true.

To each his own...Rainmaker don't have Political dreams...... I'm not asking God for a King to rule over me I don't need that.....

ISIS is a Political Creation, to be used as controlled Opposition for another Political Creation (at great cost to the rest of Humanity By the way).


According to the bible, you can receive whatever you ask for, even if it is something as silly as killing a fig tree or telling a mountain to go jump into the sea.

You're wrapped around this Fig tree, You must have a fig tree Fetish. . .....

I'm sure you are aware that these are metaphorical significance of the Fig tree.... see here......http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6111-fig-and-fig-tree .


The Meaning I take is that The barren tree (filled with doubts) or corrupt tree (filled with negative thoughts) can not bear good fruits....... So, just as Christ destroys the Barren Fig Tree. We must also destroy our doubts or negative thoughts to ensure that they do not exist to obstruct us from getting what we want in life.

Now, Can we stop endlessly harping on fig trees?

Absinthe Anecdote
07-23-2015, 06:21 PM
Rainmaker

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, I sincerely appreciate it.

I'll collect my thoughts and get back to you.

Rainmaker
07-23-2015, 07:43 PM
Rainmaker

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, I sincerely appreciate it.

I'll collect my thoughts and get back to you.

No worries. Just don't mention the God Damn fig tree s again and we can coexist without Mjolnir having to ban us for derailing the forums as we sort out the mystery of the ages. Nomsayin?

SomeRandomGuy
07-24-2015, 01:35 PM
After the tragic shooting last night in Louisiana Gov Jindal said, "For now, we can pray"

Yep, that should solve it. If we all pray that will make everything better. Thanks Governor.

(Quote is at the bottom of this article: http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/24/us/louisiana-theater-shooting/index.html)

TJMAC77SP
07-24-2015, 02:06 PM
After the tragic shooting last night in Louisiana Gov Jindal said, "For now, we can pray"

Yep, that should solve it. If we all pray that will make everything better. Thanks Governor.

(Quote is at the bottom of this article: http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/24/us/louisiana-theater-shooting/index.html)

Putting aside your hyperbole since you ignored what he actually said and added your own translation of his words, what could he have said, in your opinion, that would have helped the community?

Rainmaker
07-24-2015, 03:07 PM
After the tragic shooting last night in Louisiana Gov Jindal said, "For now, we can pray"

Yep, that should solve it. If we all pray that will make everything better. Thanks Governor.

(Quote is at the bottom of this article: http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/24/us/louisiana-theater-shooting/index.html)

"I now make it my earnest prayer, that God would have you,
and the State over which you preside, in his holy protection. - George Washington"

Yep, that should help it. If we all pray that will make everything better. Thanks Georgie!

SomeRandomGuy
07-24-2015, 04:13 PM
Putting aside your hyperbole since you ignored what he actually said and added your own translation of his words, what could he have said, in your opinion, that would have helped the community?

I'm good with what he said. Praying should help the situation. "Hi God, it's me. Just checking in. Some nutcase killed a few people at the movies yesterday. I'm sure it was all just part of your plan though and it will make sense someday. Hope things are going well up there in Heaven. P.S. Tell Grandma that after she died I sold her horse to the slaughter house. I always hated that stubborn horse."

Rainmaker
07-24-2015, 04:31 PM
I'm good with what he said. Praying should help the situation. "Hi God, it's me. Just checking in. Some nutcase killed a few people at the movies yesterday. I'm sure it was all just part of your plan though and it will make sense someday. Hope things are going well up there in Heaven. P.S. Tell Grandma that after she died I sold her horse to the slaughter house. I always hated that stubborn horse."

The real question to ask ourselves is how could this have happened in a “gun free zone”?

Rainmaker is willing to bet that the crack investigators from the Federal Government's Just-us department will find out that there was a Confederate flag hidden somewhere on the premises that's responsible for this senseless tragedy happening.

Bos Mutus
07-24-2015, 05:25 PM
After the tragic shooting last night in Louisiana Gov Jindal said, "For now, we can pray"

Yep, that should solve it. If we all pray that will make everything better. Thanks Governor.

(Quote is at the bottom of this article: http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/24/us/louisiana-theater-shooting/index.html)


I'm good with what he said. Praying should help the situation. "Hi God, it's me. Just checking in. Some nutcase killed a few people at the movies yesterday. I'm sure it was all just part of your plan though and it will make sense someday. Hope things are going well up there in Heaven. P.S. Tell Grandma that after she died I sold her horse to the slaughter house. I always hated that stubborn horse."

I would suggest that praying at least helps some, maybe a lot of, people feel a little better.

So, in that sense...we might say "it works." For me, personally, I don't think there is a God up there listening...but, I do think the positive thinking that might come to someone who does, might help them cope.

I don't think the Gov. was suggesting the prayer as a real solution to these mass shooting incidents...but was just passing on a coping mechanism

TJMAC77SP
07-24-2015, 05:34 PM
I'm good with what he said. Praying should help the situation. "Hi God, it's me. Just checking in. Some nutcase killed a few people at the movies yesterday. I'm sure it was all just part of your plan though and it will make sense someday. Hope things are going well up there in Heaven. P.S. Tell Grandma that after she died I sold her horse to the slaughter house. I always hated that stubborn horse."

So..........bottom line is you have no (real) answer to my question?

TJMAC77SP
07-24-2015, 05:35 PM
I would suggest that praying at least helps some, maybe a lot of, people feel a little better.

So, in that sense...we might say "it works." For me, personally, I don't think there is a God up there listening...but, I do think the positive thinking that might come to someone who does, might help them cope.

I don't think the Gov. was suggesting the prayer as a real solution to these mass shooting incidents...but was just passing on a coping mechanism

So you read what he actually said (all the words) and understood his goal. Cogent post thanks.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-31-2015, 06:03 PM
You're wrapped around this Fig tree, You must have a fig tree Fetish. . .....

I'm sure you are aware that these are metaphorical significance of the Fig tree.... see here......http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6111-fig-and-fig-tree .


The Meaning I take is that The barren tree (filled with doubts) or corrupt tree (filled with negative thoughts) can not bear good fruits....... So, just as Christ destroys the Barren Fig Tree. We must also destroy our doubts or negative thoughts to ensure that they do not exist to obstruct us from getting what we want in life.

Now, Can we stop endlessly harping on fig trees?

Matthew 21:18-22 is very clear in what it claims about the power of prayer.

The Fig tree isn't symbolic of doubts, or being used to illustrate anything related to the source you cited.


Jesus Curses a Fig Tree


Matthew 21:18-22 New International Version

18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.

20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.

21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

Yes, I am wrapped around the fig tree because it is a very strong and clear promise from Jesus that is obvious bullshit.

You can try to cover it up by talking about metaphors, but it is a passage that should make Christians very uncomfortable the more they think about it.

Belief in the Christian God requires the believer to continuously make excuses for what is in the bible.

That passage also shows Jesus acting like a little bitch. He gets mad at the tree for not having any figs on it, and kills the tree.

He just fucked over all the hungry travelers that will pass by the tree next season.

If Jesus were perfect, would he not have left the tree alone so the it might bear fruit again?

Nope, he gets pissed off like a two-year old and kills the tree. That is an asshole move, now matter how you look at it.

Why not make the fig tree suddenly have figs all over it?

Why not perform a miracle that leaves evidence? He could have brought great glory to the Lord, which is also himself, by proclaiming the tree will grow strong and always bear fruit.

But he doesn't do miracles that leave evidence.

Prayer does not work as Jesus said in Matthew 21:18-22.

Rainmaker
08-01-2015, 06:44 PM
Belief in the Christian God requires the believer to continuously make excuses for what is in the bible.

That passage also shows Jesus acting like a little bitch

He just fucked over all the hungry travelers

Nope, he gets pissed off like a two-year old and kills the tree. That is an asshole move,

Why not make the fig tree suddenly have figs all over it?

But he doesn't do miracles that leave evidence.

Prayer does not work

So you spend a week collecting your thoughts and this is what you come up with?

More of the same Anti Christian (Anti gentile) hate speech. Good to see you didn't over think it.

Fig tree parable is clearly a metaphor for something that appears to be fruit full from a distance. But, upon closer examination isn't.

The truth destroys phonies. Get behind me adversary.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-01-2015, 07:52 PM
So you spend a week collecting your thoughts and this is what you come up with?

More of the same Anti Christian (Anti gentile) hate speech. Good to see you didn't over think it.

Fig tree parable is clearly a metaphor for something that appears to be fruit full from a distance. But, upon closer examination isn't.

The truth destroys phonies. Get behind me adversary.

In short, you pray to a God who was dreamed up by a bunch of extremely violent sand people, and he only speaks to you via parables that were revised and edited by a bunch of monks that worked for the Roman Empire as it fractured and fell into ruin.

Have fun talking to your "sand people" God, who never answers.

Rainmaker
08-01-2015, 08:23 PM
In short, you pray to a God who was dreamed up by a bunch of extremely violent sand people, and he only speaks to you via parables that were revised and edited by a bunch of monks that worked for the Roman Empire as it fractured and fell into ruin.

Have fun talking to your "sand people" God, who never answers.

^
The God of the Talmud approved this message.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-06-2015, 05:13 PM
Matthew 7:7-12 New International Version

Ask, Seek, Knock

7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.[/b]

My Christian friends, try this promise in the bible right now and see if works. Ask for something good and see if it happens.

Wouldn't it be good if famine disappeared? How about childhood cancer? Wouldn't it be wonderful for children not to get cancer anymore.

Try asking for something good right now.

When it doesn't happen, you will once again have to make an excuse for the all powerful, all knowing God.

What excuse will you use?

Perhaps you'll say that they bible shouldn't be taken literally.

If you use that excuse, well, that is just another way of saying that the bible is full of lies.

And that is a point we can agree on.

The bible is full of lies. You can't command mountains to jump into the sea with the power of prayer as Jesus claims in Matthew 21:21.

Is Jesus a liar?

Perhaps the monks who wrote the bible just made up a bunch of stories.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-06-2015, 07:44 PM
Matthew 17:14-20 New International Version

Jesus Heals a Demon-Possessed Boy

14 When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. 15 “Lord, have mercy on my son,” he said. “He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. 16 I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him.”

17 “You unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me.” 18 Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed at that moment.

19 Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?”

20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.” [21] [a]

If your prayers aren't working, according to Jesus, you must not have any faith.

According to Jesus, all it takes is just a tiny amount of faith. With faith as small as mustard seed, you should be able to command mountains to move around.

Nothing should be impossible to you!

What gives? That is one hell of a strong promise. Is Jesus lying or is the bible just a ridiculous book?

Think about what you are professing faith to when you say you are a Christian.

Jesus says you will be so powerful that you can move mountains. It is right there in the bible. No parable, no hidden meanings.

He claims Christians can move mountains more than once.

My Christian friends, have you really read this book and thought about all the ridiculous claims and promises in it?

Prove me wrong Christians, move a few mountains around. I'll wait.

I won't see any mountains move, I just get another weak excuse from a Christian.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-06-2015, 08:28 PM
John 14:12-14 New International Version

12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Here is another unambiguous and fantastic promise from Jesus about the power of prayer.

He doesn't put any limitations or qualifiers on it either, other than believing in him.

According to that, you should have the power to pray for a new car, an ice cream sundae, a million dollars, he said anything

There is none of this nonsense about God's will, or waiting for a while, or God deciding it isn't in your best interests.

Jesus is very clear in his promise, yet prayer doesn't work that way.

Yet again, the Christian must invent an excuse to explain a nonsensical claim in the bible.

While you are making up your excuse, consider what Jesus is supposed to be.

Jesus is supposed to be God in human form. He is often described as being perfect and sinless.

So when he speaks, as in John 14, you would expect him to be telling the truth.

However, what he says about prayer is clealy wrong.

What's going on?

Did Jesus really say that?

The bible is wrong about what it says about prayer. If it got that wrong, what else did it mess up. Is the whole story of Jesus wrong?

Is God even real?

Absinthe Anecdote
08-08-2015, 07:09 PM
Matthew 18:15-20 New International Version

Dealing With Sin in the Church

15 “If your brother or sister sins,[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[d] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be[e] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[f] loosed in heaven.

19 [b]“Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

Again, we have another promise from Jesus that falls flat.

If this promise about the power of prayer were true, we would see obvious evidence of it in Christian churches.

The death rate for Christian children would be zero, Christians would survive cancer at an astonishing rate, they wouldn't have money problems, they wouldn't even suffer from minor ailments.

The advantages of being a Christian would be striking.

Yet we don't see evidence of this at all.

Conclusions?

What Jesus promises about prayer isn't true. Therefore there is no truth in Christianity. It is no different than praying to the Gods of Olympus, a volcano, or a stone idol.

I know that some of you think that I'm being mean by attacking Christianity in such a way.

Perhaps I am. I am getting in your face about it to make you think. Like Donald Trump says, " we don't have time to be PC."

I see Christians as hiding behind a wall they've constructed around their religion. A wall that says, this is sacred, be polite, respect it.

Frankly, I do want to kick that wall down because it is used by some Christians in an attempt to gain a special status in society. It is used as a defense mechanism to those who would create laws and standards to apply to the rest of us, to give them special treatment, to let them impose their laws on the rest of us.

It is a wall that keeps people ignorant of the nature world, it stifles science and understanding.

That wall says your region is special, it isn't. Christianity is no different from any other religion that came before it.

Believing in Gods and angels isn't healthy, it is silly superstition.

I used to hide behind that same wall, come out from behind it. The real world is waiting for you and you can live just fine without Jesus, in fact, you already are.

TJMAC77SP
08-09-2015, 03:51 AM
AA....do you realize that since August 1st, you've been talking with yourself?

I mean, no problem bro. Whatever you need to do but I thought I would point this out to ya'.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-09-2015, 06:39 AM
AA....do you realize that since August 1st, you've been talking with yourself?

I mean, no problem bro. Whatever you need to do but I thought I would point this out to ya'.

I've been talking to myself for my entire life, but what I have been doing in this thread is posting my thoughts for people to read.

If someone chooses to reply, that's fine, if not, that's fine too.

I used to scrawl my thoughts on bathroom walls for people to ponder. This digital method is a lot better because it doesn't require me going into unsanitary bathrooms to deface property.

Someone will see my words and it will spur a thought or two.

While I am openly proselytizing, part of purpose is to get Christians to read their bibles and think about the contents of that book.

It doesn't matter to me what they think, only that I placed a thought in their mind.

INGUARD
08-09-2015, 12:31 PM
Even if you are a believer in God, praying to him to ask him for anything makes no sense.

Especially when you consider God's will and his plan.

If it isn't his will for you to get whatever you are asking for, you aren't going to get it.

If it is his will to for you to get what you are asking for, then your prayer is equally irrelevant.

Let's say you have small child who has been in a car accident, the child is near death.

Your prayers have absolutely no impact on God's will to save the child.

If the child dies, some dumbass in your church will explain that God must have needed another little angel in heaven.

If the child recovers, there will be great rejoicing and praising of God for answering the prayers to save the child, but if it wasn't his will to do it, no amount of prayer would save the child.

You can get the exact same results praying to a fire hydrant.

Sounds like the George Carlin skit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RT6rL2UroE

Absinthe Anecdote
08-09-2015, 02:50 PM
Sounds like the George Carlin skit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RT6rL2UroE

George's bit on prayer starts around the 5:30 mark and yes, he makes a similar point to what I was making in the OP.

There are many inconsistencies to the very concept of praying to a god. The concept of prayer doesn't stand up to a logic-based examination.

While this does make great fodder for comedians, there is also a tremendous amount of truth in looking at prayer in the manner that Carlin posited.

The fact that one can swap praying to the Christian God with the Egyptian God, Ra, or even a fire hydrant and get the same statistical results is very revealing.

Not to mention the many claims in the bible about prayer that just aren't true.

There is abundant proof that biblical claims about prayer are false.

A Christian is always forced to rely on rationalizations that are outside of their Holy texts in order to explain these inconsistencies about prayer.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-17-2015, 04:10 PM
Yes, But I've left the Roman Catholic Church and now go with the old (pre-vatican II) version...

I can see why you like the pre Vatican II version.




http://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/31931/why-did-the-catholic-church-change-so-radically-after-vatican-ii-in-regards-to-t

It's said that the full deposit of the faith was revealed by Jesus. For example, before Vatican II the Church was overtly anti-Jewish. St. Thomas Aquinas writes in De Regimine Judaeorum that "it would be licit, according to Tradition, to hold the Jews in perpetual servitude for their crime against Our Lord."

The Church had the Good Friday prayer that addressed "the perfidious Jews." That prayer is no longer said. The Church sanctioned the expelling of Jews from many nations. The Church in some places made the Jews wear special symbols so that they could be distinguished from gentiles. In the 17-19th centuries you had a series of popes condemning the rising influence of "Judeo-Masonry." St. Pius X had a conversation with Theodore Herzl and told him that he can't recognize the proposed state of Israel until the Jews recognize the Church and convert.

This overtly anti-Jewish attitude of the Church that existed for 1960-odd years just seemed to vanish after Vatican II, and was replaced with a positive view of the Jews.I've even heard senior Churchman refer to Talmudic Jews as elder brothers of Catholics. This 360-degree about face on the subject of Jews is just one of many radical changes that occurred to the Church in the wake of Vatican II. If the full deposit of the faith was revealed by Jesus, then how can the Church teach contradiction? How can the Church teach one thing about the Jews for nearly two millenia, and now practically fawn over them?

Rainmaker
08-17-2015, 04:36 PM
I can see why you like the pre Vatican II version.

So what?

You can cherry pick my posts to suit your need (to try and discount everything that you can't refute as being "Anti-Semetic") and that's fine.... But, this is what I actually said.


I don't have any answers for you.....Currently I'm dabbling in Rosicrucian Philosophy and Observing Pre-Vatican 2 Practices in my own private services which I conduct and attend alone on the Island Beach at Sunrise or out on my Boat on the river or walking at dusk on my property, I think God likes it better that way..... God is not in the church. Sometimes there are holy men there. sometimes not.

I also attend the local Methodist church on Sundays with my Family, (as more of a social event and to be around Like minded people).

Absinthe Anecdote
08-17-2015, 05:12 PM
So what?

You can cherry pick my posts to suit your need (to try and discount everything that you can't refute as being "Anti-Semetic") and that's fine.... But, this is what I actually said.

That was post#35 that I quoted verbatim, no cherry picking.

As far as what you actually said, well, one doesn't need a long memory to find a myriad of your posts railing against the Jews and AIPAC.

It is very much a recurring theme with you. I long wondered about the source of your hatred and now that it has been uncovered, I'm curious as to who it was that radicalized you?

I doubt you were even born in 1962, so it must have been an older person that turned you on to St. Pius X.

Who was it that indoctrinated you?

Bos Mutus
08-17-2015, 05:44 PM
That was post#35 that I quoted verbatim, no cherry picking.

As far as what you actually said, well, one doesn't need a long memory to find a myriad of your posts railing against the Jews and AIPAC.

It is very much a recurring theme with you. I long wondered about the source of your hatred and now that it has been uncovered, I'm curious as to who it was that radicalized you?

I doubt you were even born in 1962, so it must have been an older person that turned you on to St. Pius X.

Who was it that indoctrinated you?

Do you think he first converted to "Pre-Vatican II" in some religious search for truth...and only there learned all about "The Question of the Jews?" HA!

I suspect he hated Jews first, and found this "Pre-Vatican II" bullshit amongst his online blog reading with like-minded anti-semites.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-17-2015, 06:37 PM
Do you think he first converted to "Pre-Vatican II" in some religious search for truth...and only there learned all about "The Question of the Jews?" HA!

I suspect he hated Jews first, and found this "Pre-Vatican II" bullshit amongst his online blog reading with like-minded anti-semites.

I think he was seduced in a beer hall by a bunch of Pre-Vatican II alter boys.

Or, something like this: http://youtu.be/9s5zcXccNMY


http://youtu.be/9s5zcXccNMY

Rainmaker
08-17-2015, 09:15 PM
I suspect he hated Jews first, and found this "Pre-Vatican II" bullshit amongst his online blog reading with like-minded anti-semites.

I don't think it's in the best interest of the Nation be putting American blood and treasure on the line for a small foreign country, with little to no strategic interest.

I don't believe it was right to establish an apartheid colony of European Jews based on some 3000 year old myth of the Biblical King David, for which there is no conclusive Historical Evidence, and then stand back and applaud while they bulldoze and colonize Palestinian Neighborhoods all over the country.

I think it's been counter productive to spend a generation formenting wars all over the Middle East and destabilize an entire region.

I think it's a conflict of Interest for our elected representatives to line up and do an annual roll call of support for Israel because AIPAC (which is primarily foreign funded) has basically bought off the entire US political class.

You two numbnuts consider yourselves moderates and "the voice of reason". But, The whole first half of this post reads like an Anti-Christian diatribe.

I haven't posted anything of the sort about Jews, and yet you keep smearing me as being an Anti-Semite and accusing me of being indoctrinated....

Why do you feel the need to constantly do that? Who are you trying to convince?

It's very simple really, you shall know them by their actions. Everything else is lies and misdirection.

TJMAC77SP
08-17-2015, 09:35 PM
I don't think it's in the best interest of the Nation be putting American blood and treasure on the line for a small foreign country, with little to no strategic interest.

I don't believe it was right to establish an apartheid colony of European Jews based on some 3000 year old myth of the Biblical King David, for which there is no conclusive Historical Evidence, and then stand back and applaud while they bulldoze and colonize Palestinian Neighborhoods.

I think it's been counter productive to forment wars all over the Middle East and destabilize an entire region.

I think it's a conflict of Interest for our elected representatives to line up and do an annual roll call of support for Israel because AIPAC (which is primarily foreign funded) has basically bought the entire US political class.

You two consider yourselves moderates and "the voice of reason" But, The whole first half of this post reads like an Anti-Christian diatribe.

I haven't posted anything of the sort about Jews, and yet you two keep smearing me as being an Anti-Semite and accusing me of being indoctrinated....

Why do you feel the need to do that? Who are you trying to convince?

I don't hate Jews. I just don't think they're superior to the rest of humanity (as you obviously do).

I think you and Absinthe Antidote are a couple of hypocrites and It's very simple really, you shall know them by their actions.

Everything else is lies and misdirection.

AA and BM..........

Not addressing this thread in its entirety and certainly the edges may be rough and replete with hyperbole but he raises some good points here.

- Zionism at its core is not an inclusive theory.
- While apartheid is overly strong (and the term got Jimmy Carter in trouble) the policies of Israel with regard to the Palestinians has many aspects of just that type of institution.
- AIPAC, staffed by mostly US citizens has the interests of Israel first and foremost on it's agenda. While that is legal and certainly understandable, it is nonetheless held to some different standard than say a lobby for France or other friendly nation. Anyone who speaks out against a policy of Israel (no matter how right the position is or how wrong Israel's actions are) is painted as an anti-Semite.

AA. This is what I meant by RM's façade slipping on occasion.

Rainmaker
08-17-2015, 09:50 PM
AA and BM..........

Not addressing this thread in its entirety and certainly the edges may be rough and replete with hyperbole but he raises some good points here.

- Zionism at its core is not an inclusive theory.
- While apartheid is overly strong (and the term got Jimmy Carter in trouble) the policies of Israel with regard to the Palestinians has many aspects of just that type of institution.
- AIPAC, staffed by mostly US citizens has the interests of Israel first and foremost on it's agenda. While that is legal and certainly understandable, it is nonetheless held to some different standard than say a lobby for France or other friendly nation. Anyone who speaks out against a policy of Israel (no matter how right the position is or how wrong Israel's actions are) is painted as an anti-Semite.

AA. This is what I meant by RM's façade slipping on occasion.

Let's take the last election for example. In the run up Romney was ripped apart in the press over his Mormon Faith. A completely American born Faith by the way.

There were documentaries being run making all Mormons look like freaks, talking about polygamy, corruption, magic underwear, etc. etc. etc.. It was Shameful really.

But, then on the Other side Obama's former Chief of Staff was Rahm Israel Emanuel, a man who in 1991 volunteered to serve the Israeli military rather than his "own" country.....

and the press hardly says a damn thing about it, and no one even questions it.

Because, if you do you'd be shouted down as a racist.

Too bad the Nation can't have an honest dialogue about this stuff because, the Jew mafia immediately attacks anyone that brings it up.

Bos Mutus mentioned Senator Webb as being someone he'd like to vote for. But, he won't get the chance because, even though the guy's a war hero his campaign's basically DOA because he refuses to swear unequivocal support to a Foreign country.

Am I the only one here that sees something wrong with this picture?

Bos Mutus
08-17-2015, 09:55 PM
I don't think it's in the best interest of the Nation be putting American blood and treasure on the line for a small foreign country, with little to no strategic interest.

I don't believe it was right to establish an apartheid colony of European Jews based on some 3000 year old myth of the Biblical King David, for which there is no conclusive Historical Evidence, and then stand back and applaud while they bulldoze and colonize Palestinian Neighborhoods all over the country.

I think it's been counter productive to spend a generation formenting wars all over the Middle East and destabilize an entire region.

I think it's a conflict of Interest for our elected representatives to line up and do an annual roll call of support for Israel because AIPAC (which is primarily foreign funded) has basically bought off the entire US political class.

Too bad the Nation can't have a dialogue about this stuff because, the Jew mafia attacks anyone that brings it up.

Give me a break...you run around here for months calling everybody Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Communist, Christ-hating Atheist, Mossad Agents, Jewish Superemacist...and any number of other names, now you're Mr. Reasonable crying about being called names?

An intelligent discussion on Israel...fine. But, let's start by any time someone suggest that the Jews are not plotting for a New World Order through the Media, Banks and secret whatevers...is a Jewish Supermacist Zionist...

....sorry, you've got too much history here for me to believe you're capable of reasonable discourse.


You mentioned Senator Webb as being someone you'd like to vote for. The guy's a war hero and his campaign's DOA because of it.

You two numbnuts consider yourselves moderates and "the voice of reason". But, The whole first half of this post reads like an Anti-Christian diatribe.

I don't think I posted any anti-Christian diatribe...I posted some questions, sure...and all I get back is that I'm just a self-loathing Christ-hating Atheist....name-calling is your resort when you don't have a cut and paste handy from The Remnant.... you are a huge hypocrite.


I haven't posted anything of the sort about Jews, and yet you keep smearing me as being an Anti-Semite and accusing me of being indoctrinated....

Why do you feel the need to constantly do that? Who are you trying to convince?

Not trying to convince anyone...just having a bit of sport in retailiation for your months upon months of being a supreme jackass on the board.


It's very simple really, you shall know them by their actions. Everything else is lies and misdirection.

Yes...and we all know you by your comments.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-17-2015, 09:57 PM
-

AA. This is what I meant by RM's façade slipping on occasion.

I view it as a retreat from his numerous racist rants against blacks and Jews. He has clearly been exposed as buying into a racist ideology. It is nothing more than damage control.

Do I really need to go dig up the two years of his posts? Certainly you must have read a few.

I am hostile toward all religions, I own it. I am hostile against the belief in God, not people.

He is hostile against a certain classes of people.

A very big difference.

Rainmaker
08-17-2015, 10:02 PM
I am hostile against the belief in God, not people.

A very big difference.

Bullshit.

You're hostile against Christians primarily. Probably because you're Jewish.


You're not a moderate. You're a Bigot. You just like to hide behind calling everyone else one.

I exposed Your Hypocrisy for what it is and so, now like a couple of little mean girls, the two of you have to post dozens of stupid ass Hitler videos and SPLC articles screaming Racist to try and deflect and distract from the obvious.

TJMAC77SP
08-17-2015, 10:08 PM
Let's take the last election for example. In the run up Romney was ripped apart in the press over his Mormon Faith. A completely American born Faith by the way.

There was documentaries being run making all Mormons look like freaks, talking about polygamy, corruption, magic underwear, etc. etc. etc. It was Shameful really.

But, then on the Other side Obama's former Chief of Staff was Rahm Israel Emanuel a man who in 1991 volunteered to serve the Israeli military rather than his "own" country. and the press hardly says a damn thing about it an no one even questions it. Because, if you do you'd be shouted down as a racist.

Kinda off topic but your mentioning Emanuel reminded me of a fairly typical mindset I encountered among US-Israel dual citizens.

While I was in Israel we used a private hospital just north of Tel Aviv. Before every visit we had to go to the 'Insurance Office' to get authorization. There was a US born and raised (New Jersey) young lady who I spoke to on almost every visit. I asked her one day if she had come to Israel as a result of a summer visit program on a Kibbutz. She said no but her parents had wanted her to participate in one. She had come over just after high school and stayed. Turns out her parents had really pushed her to join the IDF (Israel Defense Force).

I asked if her parents had been born in the US and she said yes. I then asked her if her parents had ever suggested serving in the US military. The look she gave me was akin to that I would have gotten if I had shit on her desk. I simply smiled as the point sailed so far over her head as to be ludicrous.

Rainmaker
08-17-2015, 10:22 PM
Not trying to convince anyone...just having a bit of sport in retailiation for your months upon months of being a supreme jackass on the board.
Yes...and we all know you by your comments.

Rainmaker is a counterpoint to your Leftist PC, Anti-White, Anti- Christian Horseshit you two (and others like you) are vomiting all over the forum.

That said. I'd love to discuss this further. But, The Shemitah-Jubilee and the Blood Moon Tetrad are upon us. The Anti-Pope is coming to address the Congress on the dangers of the weather next month and I expect Alien contact to occur any moment after that.

May you live in interesting times Grasshoppers. Rainmaker out//

Bos Mutus
08-17-2015, 10:32 PM
I am hostile toward all religions, I own it. I am hostile against the belief in God, not people.

Hate the belief, love the believer.

...but seriously, I like to think I've toned down my personal anti-religion rhetoric over the past year or so...have certainly toned down in my personal feelings about it...yes, I still have some difficult questions about it...but, I'm not one to go off on the "not one shred of empirical evidence...blah blah blah"

One...because I'm not a scientist...and I don't really deal in peer-reviewed empirical evidence anyway... Two...I realize there is an awful lot that we humans do not know and understand about the Universe...much of which we are probably incapable of observing and/or measuring right now.

That said...I have personal beliefs...I don't pretend that they answer all the Universe's questions, I'm perfectly fine living with an "I don't know how this all got here, and I'll probably never know."

I have ruled out some explanations for it though.

Bos Mutus
08-17-2015, 10:37 PM
Rainmaker is a counterpoint to your Leftist PC, Anti-White, Anti- Christian Horseshit you two (and others like you) are vomiting all over the forum.

That said. I'd love to discuss this further. But, The Shemitah-Jubilee and the Blood Moon Tetrad are upon us. The Anti-Pope is coming to address the Congress on the dangers of the weather next month and I expect Alien contact to occur any moment after that.

May you live in interesting times Grasshoppers. Rainmaker out//

I rest my case.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-17-2015, 11:02 PM
Hate the belief, love the believer.

...but seriously, I like to think I've toned down my personal anti-religion rhetoric over the past year or so...have certainly toned down in my personal feelings about it...yes, I still have some difficult questions about it...but, I'm not one to go off on the "not one shred of empirical evidence...blah blah blah"

One...because I'm not a scientist...and I don't really deal in peer-reviewed empirical evidence anyway... Two...I realize there is an awful lot that we humans do not know and understand about the Universe...much of which we are probably incapable of observing and/or measuring right now.

That said...I have personal beliefs...I don't pretend that they answer all the Universe's questions, I'm perfectly fine living with an "I don't know how this all got here, and I'll probably never know."

I have ruled out some explanations for it though.

The Internet is one of the few places you can have these discussions. It is a battle of ideas, and I have yet to lose one on religion to the point I have run away from the argument.

Unlike what just happened here with Rainmaker. He reversed nearly two years of rhetoric a few posts ago, and then promptly ran from the thread.

I'm not surprised that he is embarrassed about that Pink Floyd video I posted, it mirrors the type of propaganda from the Society of Saint Pius X that he routinely quotes.

Rainmaker
08-17-2015, 11:46 PM
The Internet is one of the few places you can have these discussions. It is a battle of ideas, and I have yet to lose one on religion to the point I have run away from the argument.

Unlike what just happened here with Rainmaker. He reversed nearly two years of rhetoric a few posts ago, and then promptly ran from the thread.

I'm not surprised that he is embarrassed about that Pink Floyd video I posted, it mirrors the type of propaganda from the Society of Saint Pius X that he routinely quotes.

Rainmaker's posted plenty of points for discussion

. But as usual you want to stick with crying racist, posting boring rap videos or yelling at Jesus.

Now, I notice you often reference the "Christian God" in your hate filled diatribes. But, I've never heard you lash out against the "Jewish God"

I suspect this is because either A: you're Jewish and don't think they're the same God.....

Or B: You're afraid of going on record, because you know someone could twist your words to label you an Anti Semite (and target you professionally later).

In either case you're either A: a liar and a bigot or B: a hypocrite and a coward.

Nomsayin?

Bos Mutus
08-17-2015, 11:52 PM
AA and BM..........

Not addressing this thread in its entirety and certainly the edges may be rough and replete with hyperbole but he raises some good points here.

- Zionism at its core is not an inclusive theory.
- While apartheid is overly strong (and the term got Jimmy Carter in trouble) the policies of Israel with regard to the Palestinians has many aspects of just that type of institution.
- AIPAC, staffed by mostly US citizens has the interests of Israel first and foremost on it's agenda. While that is legal and certainly understandable, it is nonetheless held to some different standard than say a lobby for France or other friendly nation. Anyone who speaks out against a policy of Israel (no matter how right the position is or how wrong Israel's actions are) is painted as an anti-Semite.

AA. This is what I meant by RM's façade slipping on occasion.

There is a uniquely strong and special bond between the U.S. and Israel...I don't think there is an argument there.

Certainly, U.S. Jews feel a kinship with Israel...also, I'm sure I've stated this before and I believe you've questioned me about it...Evangelical Christians, in particular, feel a religious obligation toward Israel and the entire Middle East as a sort of "God's War"...I felt that George W. Bush saw it that way and I think that's where you questioned me...this was a long while ago.

It's no doubt...that Israel, being our close allies with rather unique ties, lives in a dangerous neighborhood. The Jewish people, I think, feel somewhat like a persecuted people throughout history...hard to argue that.

As a persecuted people who are our friends and along with all the religious stuff...we have felt a special obligation to protect Israel.

As a historically persecuted people, it's possible they get a bit defensive when they hear the Radical Traditionalist Catholics talk about how their return to Israel is the source of all the world's problems...and that the country of Israel has no right to exist...etc. etc. Ironically, our special treatment of Israel is probably directly related to the rhetoric from the Rainmen of the world, among others. Anti-Semitism is a real thing.

As for me...I don't have an opinion on whether or not the Jews have a 3,000 year old right to the Holy Land...that's ancient history as far as I'm concerned. Their "right" to the land in modern history goes back maybe WWI and the booting out of the Ottoman Empire and placing it under British control in the Palestine Mandate...and eventually establishment of the State of Israel post WWII. I'm far from and expert on the whole deal.

Sorry that the whole WWI thing didn't work out for the Palestinians...but we have what we have now...I'm sure if the Ottoman's won, it would've been different, but they didn't so it ain't. To the victor goes the spoils...sorry, buds...I'm not entirely opposed to a Palestinian State, seems reasonable to me if they would be happy with one, but they won't unless it includes getting rid of the State of Israel...but it gets a bit complicated for me.

Unlike Rainman...what Israel is up to is not the center of my world. It's an issue to be dealt with, but, I don't feel it's the core of the entire of the world's problems...I just don't. They are our friends...good friends...BFFs even...I do feel there are groups in our country that will defend Israel with everything we have...I'm not one of them.

I only think one Jew is Supreme...and I married her.

TJMAC77SP
08-18-2015, 12:38 AM
There is a uniquely strong and special bond between the U.S. and Israel...I don't think there is an argument there.

Certainly, U.S. Jews feel a kinship with Israel...also, I'm sure I've stated this before and I believe you've questioned me about it...Evangelical Christians, in particular, feel a religious obligation toward Israel and the entire Middle East as a sort of "God's War"...I felt that George W. Bush saw it that way and I think that's where you questioned me...this was a long while ago.

It's no doubt...that Israel, being our close allies with rather unique ties, lives in a dangerous neighborhood. The Jewish people, I think, feel somewhat like a persecuted people throughout history...hard to argue that.

As a persecuted people who are our friends and along with all the religious stuff...we have felt a special obligation to protect Israel.

As a historically persecuted people, it's possible they get a bit defensive when they hear the Radical Traditionalist Catholics talk about how their return to Israel is the source of all the world's problems...and that the country of Israel has no right to exist...etc. etc. Ironically, our special treatment of Israel is probably directly related to the rhetoric from the Rainmen of the world, among others. Anti-Semitism is a real thing.

As for me...I don't have an opinion on whether or not the Jews have a 3,000 year old right to the Holy Land...that's ancient history as far as I'm concerned. Their "right" to the land in modern history goes back maybe WWI and the booting out of the Ottoman Empire and placing it under British control in the Palestine Mandate...and eventually establishment of the State of Israel post WWII. I'm far from and expert on the whole deal.

Sorry that the whole WWI thing didn't work out for the Palestinians...but we have what we have now...I'm sure if the Ottoman's won, it would've been different, but they didn't so it ain't. To the victor goes the spoils...sorry, buds...I'm not entirely opposed to a Palestinian State, seems reasonable to me if they would be happy with one, but they won't unless it includes getting rid of the State of Israel...but it gets a bit complicated for me.

Unlike Rainman...what Israel is up to is not the center of my world. It's an issue to be dealt with, but, I don't feel it's the core of the entire of the world's problems...I just don't. They are our friends...good friends...BFFs even...I do feel there are groups in our country that will defend Israel with everything we have...I'm not one of them.

I only think one Jew is Supreme...and I married her.

I have no issue with anything you said but I stand by the points I raised. Again, my post was not an endorsement of RM's positions but merely a remark that his words are not without merit. At least some of his words.

TJMAC77SP
08-18-2015, 12:40 AM
I view it as a retreat from his numerous racist rants against blacks and Jews. He has clearly been exposed as buying into a racist ideology. It is nothing more than damage control.

Do I really need to go dig up the two years of his posts? Certainly you must have read a few.

I am hostile toward all religions, I own it. I am hostile against the belief in God, not people.

He is hostile against a certain classes of people.

A very big difference.

As I posted in response to BM, my post was not an endorsement but also not a total en masse condemnation. I have read most of RM's posts and you know my feelings on them in general.

TJMAC77SP
08-18-2015, 12:41 AM
I rest my case.

Yeah, ok for this one I have nothing

Absinthe Anecdote
08-18-2015, 01:41 AM
As I posted in response to BM, my post was not an endorsement but also not a total en masse condemnation. I have read most of RM's posts and you know my feelings on them in general.

Of course it is possible to frame a rational argument that questions our level of support to Israel. However, I disagree with the notion that doing so automatically gets the person branded as an anti-Semite.

You know as well as I do that Rainmaker does not normally frame his objections in a rational and coherent manner.

He only attempted to do so this time after being pushed into a corner after we uncovered the source of his talking points.

As for me, I readily admit to getting in the mud and wrestling with him. I can get just as outrageous as he does, but I win. It was only after being throughly trounced that he momentarily changed tactics.

Mjölnir
08-18-2015, 03:05 AM
All,

Let's dial back from the personal insults on community members.

thank you

http://media.giphy.com/media/rvdUftzA8567u/giphy.gif

Rainmaker
08-18-2015, 04:01 AM
Kinda off topic but your mentioning Emanuel reminded me of a fairly typical mindset I encountered among US-Israel dual citizens.

Turns out her parents had really pushed her to join the IDF (Israel Defense Force).

I asked if her parents had been born in the US and she said yes. I then asked her if her parents had ever suggested serving in the US military. The look she gave me was akin to that I would have gotten if I had shit on her desk.

TJ appreciating your 'neutral position' but, I'm sure you're well aware of the scale of this systemic conflict of interest within our institutions.

This is why I say it doesn't matter which political party you put in office, when there are thousands of Dual Citizen's embedded in key positions throughout the system.

Neo liberal = neo conservative = neo nazi.

"Antisemitism" only exists in this country, because of people like Rahm Emanuel.

The Queen of Man's country. His Bother is the architect of Obamacare and thinks people are selfish to want to live past 75,... Father was a terrorist that specialized in blowing up buses full of civilians. Nice people.

http://www.middleeast.org/archives/1999_01_06.htm

TJMAC77SP
08-18-2015, 04:20 AM
Of course it is possible to frame a rational argument that questions our level of support to Israel. However, I disagree with the notion that doing so automatically gets the person branded as an anti-Semite.

You know as well as I do that Rainmaker does not normally frame his objections in a rational and coherent manner.

He only attempted to do so this time after being pushed into a corner after we uncovered the source of his talking points.

As for me, I readily admit to getting in the mud and wrestling with him. I can get just as outrageous as he does, but I win. It was only after being throughly trounced that he momentarily changed tactics.

Well, certainly it is possible but equally possible to be labeled anti-Semite and I have witnessed it first hand (Jimmy Carter being the most prominent example.

As to the rest. No argument, wasn't my point.

Interesting point about the anti-Semite label. If I were to post a rant about Italians. Point out their horrible driving, crazy politics, etc... no one would label me an anti-Catholic yet the percentage of Catholics in Italy exceeds that of Jews in Israel. To criticize Israel by itself is not anti-Semetic.

Bos Mutus
08-18-2015, 04:57 AM
. To criticize Israel by itself is not anti-Semetic.

No, it doesn't. But if someone's idea of an 'insult' is 'you have a rabbi' or ' you eat Shabbat dinner'....they're not criticizing Israel or Zionists

TJMAC77SP
08-18-2015, 02:38 PM
All,

Let's dial back from the personal insults on community members.

thank you

http://media.giphy.com/media/rvdUftzA8567u/giphy.gif

I didn't see any personal insults here. What did I miss?

TJMAC77SP
08-18-2015, 02:42 PM
No, it doesn't. But if someone's idea of an 'insult' is 'you have a rabbi' or ' you eat Shabbat dinner'....they're not criticizing Israel or Zionists

I am speaking mainly of anyone who gets labeled anti-Semitic because they speak out against, for example, Israel's allowing the building of settlements in the West Bank. That kind of criticism which has zero to do with the Jewish faith.

I have eaten many Shabbat dinners (especially the catch all stew with the whole hard-boiled eggs in it) I would never criticize that.

Bos Mutus
08-18-2015, 03:00 PM
I am speaking mainly of anyone who gets labeled anti-Semitic because they speak out against, for example, Israel's allowing the building of settlements in the West Bank. That kind of criticism which has zero to do with the Jewish faith.


Yes, I get it.


I have eaten many Shabbat dinners (especially the catch all stew with the whole hard-boiled eggs in it) I would never criticize that.

I don't think anyone has called you anti-Semetic...

There's really only one here who was called that...and it wasn't for reasonably questioning the building of settlements on the West Bank...I think we all know that.

TJMAC77SP
08-18-2015, 03:47 PM
Yes, I get it.



I don't think anyone has called you anti-Semetic...

There's really only one here who was called that...and it wasn't for reasonably questioning the building of settlements on the West Bank...I think we all know that.

Oh, I know but he brought up the overuse and deliberate tactic of smearing people with the label and I just agreed with him on the overall premise.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-18-2015, 03:48 PM
Yes, I get it.



I don't think anyone has called you anti-Semetic...

There's really only one here who was called that...and it wasn't for reasonably questioning the building of settlements on the West Bank...I think we all know that.

I'm singin' in the rain
Just singin' in the rain
What a horrible feelin'
The Jews are in charge.

I'm screaming at Fox.
I hate NBC.

There's fear in my heart
And i'm ready to depart.

Back to my Stormtropper place.
To wait on the New World Order,
And fiendish plots against my race.

Let the black helicopters chase,
Everyone from this place.

Come on with the rain
I've a smile on my face
I got my jackboots on.

With a happy refrain
just singin'
singin' in the rain

dancin' in the rain...

You're a joodle Jew Jew...
There's another one too..
So many joodle Jew Jews..
And a multi-culturalist too..
Oh the joodle Jew Jews...

Bos Mutus
12-29-2015, 10:12 PM
Interesting quote I saw being floated about recently:

“The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.”

Werner Heisenberg (http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/64309.Werner_Heisenberg)

Now, to be honest, I never heard much of Heisenberg until Breaking Bad came out...but guess he's like the father of Quantum physics.

In the brief skimming I have done...my understanding is he was not talking about a personal god, though a member of the Lutheran church...but is speaking more for a "god" in the central order to the universe that far exceeds our understanding.

He's got some other good quotes...

Rainmaker
12-30-2015, 03:46 AM
Interesting quote I saw being floated about recently:

“The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.”

Werner Heisenberg (http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/64309.Werner_Heisenberg)

Now, to be honest, I never heard much of Heisenberg until Breaking Bad came out...but guess he's like the father of Quantum physics.

In the brief skimming I have done...my understanding is he was not talking about a personal god, though a member of the Lutheran church...but is speaking more for a "god" in the central order to the universe that far exceeds our understanding.

He's got some other good quotes...

you got all that from watching breaking bad?? That's awesome! You are being seduced by "religious dogma"!

"If you’re committed enough, you can make any story work. I once told a woman I was Kevin Costner, and it worked because I believed it" -Saul Goodman

Nomsayin?