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View Full Version : Maternity leave to get tripled for Navy and Marines.



garhkal
07-08-2015, 05:49 AM
Saw this over on the GOP site, but am using 3 other sites for linkages.

http://www.insidenova.com/news/military/maternity-leave-tripled-for-marine-corps-navy-women/article_6fa9063e-20f0-11e5-b19d-2baa22d9a77c.html

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/07/03/us-navy-triple-paid-maternity-leave-in-effort-to-attract-women.html

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2015/07/06/Maternity-leave-tripled-for-Navy-Marine-Corps/3751436221582/

So who thinks this will be a good idea for the military?

Does anyone think the same will ever get done for 'fathers' and paternity leave?

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
07-08-2015, 01:28 PM
For those who truly value a woman's service, this is the right thing to do. It would be nice to offer the same benefit to fathers, but at this point in a baby's life I'm guessing (I don't have kids) that it's more important for the mother to with the baby 24/7. Of course, this need goes beyond just 18 weeks. I guess this is where a break in service, like one offered by the Air Force, would definitely be a nice option for mothers who don't want to leave their babies at the CDC for the first few years of their life.

SomeRandomGuy
07-08-2015, 01:46 PM
Dang! 18 weeks off? That is 126 days or basically the equivalent of a four month deployment. This would really suck in smaller shops if a bunch of women get pregnant at the same time. A few years back, out of 18 people in our shop (including men) four of the women got pregnant at the same time. It was bad enough when they were all gone for six weeks that mostly overlapped. I can't imagine losing 22% of one shop for four months. Especially if someone in that shop also had to fulfill a deployment tasking. With that being said, I agree with Flaps that this is probably the right thing to do. I have a 9 month old at home and a 3 year old. Their mother stays home with them full-time. Those first few months are very important for the infant especially if the mother is breastfeeding.

Rainmaker
07-08-2015, 01:51 PM
Dang! 18 weeks off? That is 126 days or basically the equivalent of a four month deployment. This would really suck in smaller shops if a bunch of women get pregnant at the same time. A few years back, out of 18 people in our shop (including men) four of the women got pregnant at the same time. It was bad enough when they were all gone for six weeks that mostly overlapped. I can't imagine losing 22% of one shop for four months. Especially if someone in that shop also had to fulfill a deployment tasking. With that being said, I agree with Flaps that this is probably the right thing to do. I have a 9 month old at home and a 3 year old. Their mother stays home with them full-time. Those first few months are very important for the infant especially if the mother is breastfeeding.

Obama is the first woman president.

Rainmaker
07-08-2015, 02:43 PM
Does anyone think the same will ever get done for 'fathers' and paternity leave?

I for one hope not. Because, This is a victory for families.

So, Don't allow yourself to play into their hands and fall victim to the Feminist (equalist) argument that women can do anything men can do (and vice versa), and everything has to be gender neutral.....

I know you are not religious man garhkal , and that's ok with me..... But, understand this my Friend.......... Baphomet is Gay. Which is why these Satanists behind all the Bullshit agendas seek to pervert everything that is beauty, love, respect and truth. It Starts with dividing and conquering the Family Unit.

USN - Retired
07-08-2015, 04:11 PM
Google the phrase "benevolent sexism".

USN - Retired
07-08-2015, 05:55 PM
Will a woman on maternity leave receive a "not observed" fitrep/eval for the time (18 weeks) that she is on maternity leave? If not, then why not? Just askin'.

Rainmaker
07-08-2015, 07:33 PM
Will a woman on maternity leave receive a "not observed" fitrep/eval for the time (18 weeks) that she is on maternity leave? If not, then why not? Just askin'.

No. Because Diversity is our Greatest Strength and Milk does a body good. So, When 25% of the force is Lactating it makes you stronger.


http://www.thineselfbetrue.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/milk8852104416_440ee28d8d_o.jpg

garhkal
07-08-2015, 07:45 PM
I for one hope not. Because, This is a victory for families.

So, Don't allow yourself to play into their hands and fall victim to the Feminist (equalist) argument that women can do anything men can do (and vice versa), and everything has to be gender neutral.....

I know you are not religious man garhkal , and that's ok with me..... But, understand this my Friend.......... Baphomet is Gay. Which is why these Satanists behind all the Bullshit agendas seek to pervert everything that is beauty, love, respect and truth. It Starts with dividing and conquering the Family Unit.

So fathers matter not as much as mothers for families IYO?

Mjölnir
07-08-2015, 08:04 PM
So who thinks this will be a good idea for the military?

Good idea, yes. As FLAPS, USAF (ret) said ... this is attaching value to their service and also is likely to have some (small maybe but some) impact on females ideas on staying in or separating. Also, the new policy only allows it to be taken in the first year after birth, when a female would be prohibited from sea duty anyway ... so no impact on ship's manning. Yeah, it may be a burden on the shore establishment but it can be mitigated.


Does anyone think the same will ever get done for 'fathers' and paternity leave?

A full 18 weeks, no. Some additional time is being talked about. I got the 21 days we were in China reimbursed via a policy in the MILPERSMAN, and got an additional 30 days non chargeable leave after we got back to facilitate "bonding with a recently adopted child." That is specific for adoption but applies to fathers and mothers.

I think a mother's bonding is more essential (breastfeeding, caregiving etc.) and mothers have a stronger psychological bond having carried the child to term; so I think longer for a maternity leave than paternity leave is appropriate. Add into all of that the physical aspects associated with childbirth and I think it is a good thing. Having worked with females who had recently given birth, each is different... some are ready to come back to work full speed once their convalescent leave is over, others take longer. Having never squeezed something the size of a watermelon out of hole the size of a lemon ... I will defer on calling them non-hackers.



Will a woman on maternity leave receive a "not observed" fitrep/eval for the time (18 weeks) that she is on maternity leave? If not, then why not? Just askin'.

Why should she, there are 52 weeks in a reporting period. Even taking the convalescent leave into account, there is plenty of time to accumulate enough data to properly evaluate their professional performance. Now, if they are a new check in and then have the baby, then go on 18 weeks of leave and their eval/fitrep came due I think it would be appropriate to issue a NOB report just like you would someone who has been onboard less than 90 days.

USN - Retired
07-08-2015, 10:49 PM
Yeah, it may be a burden on the shore establishment but it can be mitigated.

Translation: People who choose not to have children will be expected to do extra work.



I think a mother's bonding is more essential (breastfeeding, caregiving etc.) and mothers have a stronger psychological bond having carried the child to term; so I think longer for a maternity leave than paternity leave is appropriate. Add into all of that the physical aspects associated with childbirth and I think it is a good thing. Having worked with females who had recently given birth, each is different... some are ready to come back to work full speed once their convalescent leave is over, others take longer. Having never squeezed something the size of a watermelon out of hole the size of a lemon ... I will defer on calling them non-hackers.


Benevolent sexism. Gender stereotyping.

She can use a breast pump and put the milk in the refrigerator. The daddy can then feed the kid.

If the female sailor is married to a civilian man who is a stay-at-home father/parent, does that female sailor still need 18 weeks of maternity leave?

6 weeks of maternity leave has been working fine. If a female sailor wants more than 6 weeks of maternity leave, then anything in excess of that 6 weeks should be either (1) unpaid leave or (2) charged as regular leave. If 6 weeks of maternity leave isn't enough, then 18 weeks of maternity leave will not really make any difference.




I think a mother's bonding is more essential (breastfeeding, caregiving etc.) and mothers have a stronger psychological bond having carried the child to term; so

Even if the father is the stay-at-home parent?


Why should she,

To keep the fitrep/eval system honest.


, there are 52 weeks in a reporting period. .

18 weeks (126 days) is a long time to be away from work. A woman who will use the 18 weeks of maternity leave should receive a close-out fitrep/eval when she starts maternity leave and a "Not observed" fitrep/eval during the 18 weeks of maternity leave. 18 weeks of maternity leave is more than a third of an annual reporting cycle. That is a long time for the command to pretend that they are observing her work performance when they really are not.

Mjölnir
07-08-2015, 11:19 PM
Translation: People who choose not to have children will be expected to do extra work.

In some cases that will likely be the case. Good leadership will (should be able to) see this coming and be able to dilute her duties so the impact isn't that big. I am sure there will be some workcenter somewhere that has 4 or 5 etc. pregnant females that will get slammed.


Benevolent sexism. Gender stereotyping.

She can use a breast pump and put the milk in the refrigerator. The daddy can then feed the kid.

She could, I think we can be a better organization than that.


If the female sailor is married to a civilian man who is a stay-at-home father/parent, does that female sailor still need 18 weeks of maternity leave?

Maybe, maybe not ... each individual is ... individual. I don't think it should be tied to if or who they are married to.


6 weeks of maternity leave has been working fine. If a female sailor wants more than 6 weeks of maternity leave, then anything in excess of that 6 weeks should be either (1) unpaid leave or (2) charged as regular leave. If 6 weeks of maternity leave isn't enough, then 18 weeks of maternity leave will not really make any difference.

6 weeks of maternity leave has been working fine ... for those who have chosen to stay. For those who have made it work "Bravo Zulu" to them, at the same we have a huge drop off of females in the middle and senior ranks (officer & enlisted) & the #1 reason women leave the Navy & Marine Corps is the tug of war between family (and their role in child rearing) and career. So, if we want to retain we need to find a way to fight the perception that the choice is family or job. I also think we will retain more 'quality' females who could find edifying careers elsewhere by having a bit more flexibility to the period immediately following pregnancy.


Even if the father is the stay-at-home parent?

What if she isn't married, what if she is married to a guy who works from home, what if ... Shouldn't matter.


To keep the fitrep/eval system honest.

18 weeks (126 days) is a long time to be away from work. A woman who will use the 18 weeks of maternity leave should receive a close-out fitrep/eval when she starts maternity leave and a "Not observed" fitrep/eval during the 18 weeks of maternity leave. 18 weeks of maternity leave is more than a third of an annual reporting cycle. That is a long time for the command to pretend that they are observing her work performance when they really are not.

First, he 18 weeks doesn't have to be taken in one block. I don't see it as dishonest based on how our evals / fitreps currently work. Also, depending on the timing of pregnancy and promotion a series of NOB's could inadvertently harm advancement (go back to trying to retain people and not make them feel that having a family is at odds with career.) I would be more in line to agree once we go past 1/2 of the reporting period. I agree, that is a long time but we don't do that for anyone other types of medical issues with long periods of recovery ... why make pregnancy different?

USN - Retired
07-09-2015, 01:19 AM
Also, the new policy only allows it to be taken in the first year after birth, when a female would be prohibited from sea duty anyway ... so no impact on ship's manning.

That statement doesn't make any sense. Are you saying that female sailors never get pregnant when they are on sea duty? If a female sailor got pregnant shortly after reporting to a ship for sea duty, then there would be an impact on the manning of the ship.


at the same we have a huge drop off of females in the middle and senior ranks (officer & enlisted) & the #1 reason women leave the Navy & Marine Corps is the tug of war between family (and their role in child rearing) and career.

That tug of war will still exist after the 18 weeks of maternity leave. The extra maternity leave doesn't solve the real problem: Who takes care of the kid when mommy is out at sea?


So, if we want to retain we need to find a way to fight the perception that the choice is family or job. I also think we will retain more 'quality' females who could find edifying careers elsewhere by having a bit more flexibility to the period immediately following pregnancy.

We can fight the "perception", but the choice is still there. If a Sailor wants to get ahead in the Navy, then that Sailor must put his/her Navy career first and his/her family life second. That is not a politically correct statement, but it is reality. Serving in the Navy entails frequent separation from the family for extended periods of time.

And the female sailors can still can still go find "edifying careers elsewhere" even after they take the 18 weeks of maternity leave.


First, he 18 weeks doesn't have to be taken in one block.

In most cases, it probably will be taken in one block.


I agree, that is a long time but we don't do that for anyone other types of medical issues with long periods of recovery

That statement of yours is misleading. If a sailor is gone from a command for a long period of time (i.e. many months), a good command will submit a "not observed" fitrep/eval on the sailor. Trying to give an observed fitrep/eval to a sailor who has been gone for many months is not fair to anyone, and it does not honestly document the sailor's performance.

Mjölnir
07-09-2015, 01:42 AM
That statement doesn't make any sense. Are you saying that female sailors never get pregnant when they are on sea duty? If a female sailor got pregnant shortly after reporting to a ship for sea duty, then there would be an impact on the manning of the ship.

Female sailors get pregnant on sea duty and are then detached, removed from the EDVR and replaced. If they are in a critical NEC that billet goes into BUPERS as a hot fill (I got a replacement Sailor onboard in 18 days after detaching a pregnant female.) Once a female is detached and goes to a shore station, she is prohibited from going back to to sea duty (to go back into the normal sea-shore rotation) for 1 year from the birth of the child (which coincides with the one year to take the 18 weeks.)




That tug of war will still exist after the 18 weeks of maternity leave. The extra maternity leave doesn't solve the real problem: Who takes care of the kid when mommy is out at sea?

Yes, the tug of war will exist, this is a measure to make it less of a burden.


We can fight the "perception", but the choice is still there. If a Sailor wants to get ahead in the Navy, then that Sailor must put his/her Navy career first and his/her family life second. That is not a politically correct statement, but it is reality. Serving in the Navy entails frequent separation from the family for extended periods of time.

I disagree. I have put my wife and family first but yes, met the obligations of my career too (18 deployments so far -- 14 since being married.) I went from E1-E7 and O1-O4 and I have said it to many of my bosses -- if you want me to choose between my family and my career, my family will win every time. And it hasn't harmed me a bit. Honestly, one former CO who is still a mentor and now a RADM recently told me he finds the honesty refreshing. I consistently have gotten break out FITREPs from those same bosses, promoted to LCDR early, currently am an XO and have screened for command ... sounds like I am doing alright to me -- I will be honest, I don't see me ever being an Admiral ... I don't know any particulars of your career but it is entirely possible to put your family ahead of your career and succeed. I would honestly rather have retired as an E7 with my wife than retire as an O4 or O5 and not have her.


And the female sailors can still can still go find "edifying careers elsewhere" even after they take the 18 weeks of maternity leave.

Yes, they can. This is about the organization making it more palatable to stay. Some will still go, I think this is designed to influence some who are 'on the fence' to stay.


In most cases, it probably will be taken in one block.

Agreed. But it doesn't have to be.


That statement of yours is misleading. If a sailor is gone from a command for a long period of time (i.e. many months), a good command will submit a "not observed" fitrep/eval on the sailor. Trying to give an observed fitrep/eval to a sailor who has been gone for many months is not fair to anyone, and it does not honestly document the sailor's performance.

Incorrect, a command cannot ... CANNOT give a NOB to a Sailor who has been in the command more than 90 days if ANY fair and meaningful evaluation can be made. If they do it will be returned from PERS for the Reporting Senior to correct (personal experience with this.) If you have a Sailor who is still attached to the command but undergoing extensive medical treatment (from surgery, cancer treatment, serious injury etc.) the command is still required to evaluate their performance in their assigned duties.

I can see where some people will whine if a Sailor gets an EP who has been gone for 18 weeks; but if they deserve it, they deserve it. It is easier to bitch about why someone else got something they didn't deserve than to exercise a bit of brutally honest self reflection.

USN - Retired
07-09-2015, 02:23 AM
Female sailors get pregnant on sea duty and are then detached, removed from the EDVR and replaced. If they are in a critical NEC that billet goes into BUPERS as a hot fill (I got a replacement Sailor onboard in 18 days after detaching a pregnant female.) Once a female is detached and goes to a shore station, she is prohibited from going back to to sea duty (to go back into the normal sea-shore rotation) for 1 year from the birth of the child (which coincides with the one year to take the 18 weeks.)

So,... there is an impact on manning


Incorrect, a command cannot ... CANNOT give a NOB to a Sailor who has been in the command more than 90 days if ANY fair and meaningful evaluation can be made. If they do it will be returned from PERS for the Reporting Senior to correct (personal experience with this.) If you have a Sailor who is still attached to the command but undergoing extensive medical treatment (from surgery, cancer treatment, serious injury etc.) the command is still required to evaluate their performance in their assigned duties.
.

You are again trying to mislead us...

---------------------

BUPERS INSTRUCTION 1610.10C

6-2. Uses of Not Observed Reports. NOB reports are used to
fulfill reporting requirements when graded reports are
inappropriate. They may be submitted for short periods of duty
or TEMDU (no more than 3 months) that is purely for
administrative or training purposes, academic DUINS, duties that
require a member's complete independence from any appearance of
command influence, and Regular report periods that have been
fully evaluated in a Concurrent or Operational Commander report.
Also, under unique circumstances, a reporting senior can submit
a NOB report for any period if the reporting senior does not
feel that there has been enough observation to grade with
confidence, i.e., member has been onboard for 6 months but
member was TEMADD for a majority of the reporting period, etc.
Justification and explanation must be provided in the Comments
field. Observed reports are desired if any fair and meaningful
evaluation or recommendation can be made.

http://www.public.navy.mil/ia/Documents/BUPERINST161010C.pdf
------------------------

I have been retired from the Navy for over 9 years, and I know 1610.10C better than you do. You should be embarrassed.


If you have a Sailor who is still attached to the command but undergoing extensive medical treatment (from surgery, cancer treatment, serious injury etc.) the command is still required to evaluate their performance in their assigned duties.
.

A sailor on maternity leave doesn't have any duties so no fair and meaningful evaluation can be made of her performance while she is on maternity leave.


I disagree. I have put my wife and family first but yes, met the obligations of my career too (18 deployments so far -- 14 since being married.) .

If you have gone on 14 deployments since you have been married, then you didn't put your family life first. There is no way that you could have put your family life first. I understand that you think that you did, but you didn't. You probably also think that you understand 1610.10C, but you obviously don't.

Let's get back on point: The extra maternity leave doesn't solve the real problem. Eventually, mommy will have to go back out to sea. Who will take care of the kid when mommy is out at sea? That's the real problem.

Mjölnir
07-09-2015, 02:46 AM
So,... there is an impact on manning

You are again trying to mislead us...

It isn't misleading but looking at how the new policy is actually worded. The new 18 week policy will not impact manning, the Sailor will have already been removed from the EDVR since having learned she was pregnant. Quite some time will have passed to get a replacement -- provided the chain of command is doing their jobs correctly. Does pregnancy impact manning, yes ... this new policy is only effective for the year that the Sailor is already barred from sea duty.


---------------------

BUPERS INSTRUCTION 1610.10C

6-2. Uses of Not Observed Reports. NOB reports are used to
fulfill reporting requirements when graded reports are
inappropriate. They may be submitted for short periods of duty
or TEMDU (no more than 3 months) that is purely for
administrative or training purposes, academic DUINS, duties that
require a member's complete independence from any appearance of
command influence, and Regular report periods that have been
fully evaluated in a Concurrent or Operational Commander report.
Also, under unique circumstances, a reporting senior can submit
a NOB report for any period if the reporting senior does not
feel that there has been enough observation to grade with
confidence, i.e., member has been onboard for 6 months but
member was TEMADD for a majority of the reporting period, etc.
Justification and explanation must be provided in the Comments
field. Observed reports are desired if any fair and meaningful
evaluation or recommendation can be made.

http://www.public.navy.mil/ia/Documents/BUPERINST161010C.pdf
------------------------

I have been retired from the Navy for over 9 years, and I know 1610.10C better than you do. You should be embarrassed.

We are now using 1610.10D ... keep going down past the paragraph you quoted (it was there in version C too though):


b. Exception. Under unique circumstances, a reporting
senior can submit a NOB report for any period if the reporting
senior does not feel that there has been enough observation to
grade with confidence, i.e., member has been onboard for 6
months but member was TEMADD for a majority of the reporting
period, etc. Justification and explanation must be provided in
the Comments field. Observed reports are desired if any fair
and meaningful evaluation or recommendation can be made.

I can tell you that a command that tries to submit a NOB report when a Sailor has been attached to the command for 2/3 of the reporting period will have the report rejected -- two have come back to my command in the last 2 months for Sailors who got NOBs from a detachment OIC (A Master Chief who didn't understand that he couldn't do that) because they were TAD for 120 days out of 365. Now, the stars may align where the due to a change of reporting senior etc. a case could be made to submit a NOB report -- but (based on my conversations with PERS 32) if the Sailor has been part of the command for a majority (as stated in the instruction) of the period (in an annual report 183 days) they will be written a report and if you submit a NOB when they have been with the command and the reporting senior a majority of the period, PERS 32 will return the report.


A sailor on maternity leave doesn't have any duties so no fair and meaningful evaluation can be made of her performance while she is on maternity leave.

No, the report will cover the other approx 38 weeks of the reporting period. Under the current system, the Sailor has to be attached to a UIC somewhere. They have some job, you report on that.


If you have gone on 14 deployments since you have been married, then you didn't put your family life first. There is no way that you could have put your family life first. I understand that you think that you did, but you didn't. You probably also think that you understand 1610.10C, but you obviously don't.

1. Yes, my family comes first, always has. There are things I have to do for my job and my wife understands that but it isn't easy. But, I have also made very conscious decisions about family and career.

2. I actually do understand the 1610.10C & D. You pulled out one paragraph without looking at the follow on paragraphs. Also, I have been a RS for over 50 Sailors and have never had any of my evals returned by PERS while having to correct reports that others have written to keep a Sailor from getting screwed. How many evals/reports were you an RS for before you retired?


Let's get back on point: The extra maternity leave doesn't solve the real problem. Eventually, mommy will have to go back out to sea. Who will take care of the kid when mommy is out at sea? That's the real problem.

Whoever is specified in the Family Care Plan which is required by Navy policy. It is part of the life, that is a simple fact. This whole policy is not designed to make military life 100% like a civilian career but to make it better. Sure, some people are going to look at it like 18 weeks of vacation, and some will really need it. Some would stay in the Navy / Marine Corps even if we didn't do this, some wouldn't. We could say "suck it up buttercup" and lose quality people but if this policy will retain a few that are on the fence then so be it. I get that you don't like it because you look at it like 18 weeks of vacation.

USN - Retired
07-09-2015, 06:41 PM
Whoever is specified in the Family Care Plan which is required by Navy policy.

If there is a person listed on that family care plan who can really take care of the kid, then that person should assume the role of primary caregiver of that kid 6 weeks after the birth of the kid (perhaps even sooner). There is no need to wait until 18 weeks after the birth of the kid. Of course, you believe in all that "tender years" crap, and you think that mommy should stay home and bond with her little baby. I suspect that many mommies would like to stay home and bond with their little babies. That's all very nice, but, there's a problem (a big problem). Mommy signed an enlistment contract with the US Navy. Mommy made a commitment to the US Navy, and she needs to get back to work as soon as possible. If the Doctor says that she is medically fit to return to duty 6 weeks after giving birth, then she should be a team player and go back to work. The Navy holds male sailors to high standards , but, sadly, the Navy leaders don't have the moral courage to hold female sailors to those same high standards. Extending the maternity leave out to 18 weeks is a prime example of "benevolent sexism", and, in the long run, it will hurt women far more than it will help them.


We could say "suck it up buttercup" and lose quality people but if this policy will retain a few that are on the fence then so be it.

If 6 weeks of maternity leave is not good enough for a woman, then 18 weeks of maternity leave probably won't be enough either and the woman should just take a pregnancy discharge. "Buttercup" signed an enlistment contract, and she needs to get back to work. Best case scenario, extending the maternity leave to 18 weeks will help the Navy retain some mediocre performers. A top performing female sailor will take her enlistment contract seriously and will be ready to return to her commitment to the Navy and her shipmates after 6 weeks of maternity leave.

USN - Retired
07-09-2015, 06:45 PM
The Navy provides special privileges to those who choose to breed. Male sailors will get a few days of paid paternity leave (at the command's discretion). Female sailors will get many weeks of paid maternity leave. Additionally, the fitreps/evals of female sailors will be written in a manner to hide the fact that they spent many months on paid maternity leave. Furthermore, there are some financial incentives to those who choose to breed (e.g. housing allowance). And let's not forget, those who choose to not breed will be expected to carry the load of those sailors who are on maternity leave and paternity leave.

There are no special privileges for those sailors who choose to remain childfree even though the sailor who is childfree will cost the Navy considerably less than a sailor with kids (housing, medical care for the kids, paid maternity leave, etc).

Why shouldn't there be some resentment by those who choose to not breed.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-09-2015, 06:51 PM
The Navy provides special privileges to those who choose to breed. Male sailors will get a few days of paid paternity leave (at the command's discretion). Female sailors will get many weeks of paid maternity leave. Additionally, the fitreps/evals of female sailors will be written in a manner to hide the fact that they spent many months on paid maternity leave. Furthermore, there are some financial incentives to those who choose to breed (e.g. housing allowance). And let's not forget, those who choose to not breed will be expected to carry the load of those sailors who are on maternity leave and paternity leave.

There are no special privileges for those sailors who choose to remain childfree even though the sailor who is childfree will cost the Navy considerably less than a sailor with kids (housing, medical care for the kids, paid maternity leave, etc).

Why shouldn't there be some resentment by those who choose to not breed.

Weren't you supporting polygamists a few days ago? A polygamist would be a super-breeder if you ask me.

Oh, that's right! You said you were trolling, guess that s what you are doing now.

USN - Retired
07-09-2015, 07:10 PM
Oh, that's right! You said you were trolling, guess that s what you are doing now.

That doesn't mean that my points are not valid.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-09-2015, 07:38 PM
That doesn't mean that my points are not valid.

Not valid.

You tried using polygamy as a way of diffusing gay marriage rights. Now you are complaining about "breeders", yet you support "super breeders".

Not valid at all.

USN - Retired
07-09-2015, 08:03 PM
You tried using polygamy as a way of diffusing gay marriage rights.

You are wrong. I was just asking questions.

Rainmaker
07-09-2015, 08:36 PM
you are wrong. I was just asking questions.

Good news comrade.....it's no longer necessary for us to ask questions anymore because we've found the answer to every issue..... Diversity is Our Greatest Strength!! FORWARD SOVIET!!!

garhkal
07-09-2015, 10:55 PM
The Navy provides special privileges to those who choose to breed. Male sailors will get a few days of paid paternity leave (at the command's discretion). Female sailors will get many weeks of paid maternity leave. Additionally, the fitreps/evals of female sailors will be written in a manner to hide the fact that they spent many months on paid maternity leave. Furthermore, there are some financial incentives to those who choose to breed (e.g. housing allowance). And let's not forget, those who choose to not breed will be expected to carry the load of those sailors who are on maternity leave and paternity leave.

There are no special privileges for those sailors who choose to remain childfree even though the sailor who is childfree will cost the Navy considerably less than a sailor with kids (housing, medical care for the kids, paid maternity leave, etc).

Why shouldn't there be some resentment by those who choose to not breed.

When i served, i saw and heard quite a bit of resentment. BUT it always seemed to get ignored, or shouted down as being 'anti-family'.

SeaLawyer
07-10-2015, 02:21 PM
It's almost encouraging to get a sex change! This benefit coupled with the recent transgender benefits the military is offering make me want to go out and get pregnant. Although it's scientifically impossible right now, I'm sure the day will come.

Rainmaker
07-10-2015, 04:31 PM
It's almost encouraging to get a sex change! This benefit coupled with the recent transgender benefits the military is offering make me want to go out and get pregnant. Although it's scientifically impossible right now, I'm sure the day will come.

Transgenders are Court Eunuchs for the Imperial Obama Administration

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbgCpmIuaNU

garhkal
07-11-2015, 04:48 AM
It's almost encouraging to get a sex change! This benefit coupled with the recent transgender benefits the military is offering make me want to go out and get pregnant. Although it's scientifically impossible right now, I'm sure the day will come.

Makes me wonder if someone would be balsy enough to self test a new drug like Arnie's character in the film Junior.

Bos Mutus
07-11-2015, 08:01 AM
Makes me wonder if someone would be balsy enough to self test a new drug like Arnie's character in the film Junior.

I think this is illuminating...you all spent too much time reading comics as kids and watching movies as adults...Dr. evil is out there... bwaa. Ha haaaa

Rainmaker
07-12-2015, 05:20 PM
So fathers matter not as much as mothers for families IYO?

Fathers matter just as much throughout the course of a child's life. However, Mothers matter more to infants. IMO.

Now, in Rainmaker's experience one of three things usually happen whenever women serve with men:
1. The woman falls in love with a man in the unit, or
2. a man in the unit falls in love with the woman, or
3. she cries when she's criticized.

None of these outcomes are very good (which is why they shouldn't be there in the first place). But, as we all know......Diversity is our Greatest Strength.

A woman's first priority (unless she's insane) is to her children.

And since, a new mother is pretty much useless to a work center for about 6 months anyway, we might as well just let em stay at home and take care of the kids

Mjölnir
07-17-2015, 01:56 AM
Makes me wonder if someone would be balsy enough to self test a new drug like Arnie's character in the film Junior.

You ever seen a shotgun barrel that explodes ... just sayin'

http://www.myutahccw.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/2.jpg

Mjölnir
07-17-2015, 02:05 AM
Fathers matter just as much throughout the course of a child's life. However, Mothers matter more to infants. IMO.

Concur


Now, in Rainmaker's experience one of three things usually happen whenever women serve with men:
1. The woman falls in love with a man in the unit, or
2. a man in the unit falls in love with the woman, or
3. she cries when she's criticized.

We tend to date people in our social circles, that includes work.


A woman's first priority (unless she's insane) is to her children.

And since, a new mother is pretty much useless to a work center for about 6 months anyway, we might as well just let em stay at home and take care of the kids

I think it applies to women and men once we have children, our first responsibility should be to them.

The new policy is an attempt to incentivize women to stay; women who have long felt that come kiddo time they had to separate to start a family (something I don't think they have to do.)

Now, if we get butt hurt over women getting so much time off and the thought that any time away from work is bad, we should just forbid any & everything across the board that would take someone away from duty: forbid marriage by service members and have everyone live in the barracks, eat at the chow hall, forbid education, forbid smoke breaks (10 minutes breaks add up to almost 30 lost 8-hour days in a year -- not insignificant) -- we would be more efficient but probably have one hell of a recruiting problem.

USN - Retired
07-17-2015, 04:53 PM
Concur



We tend to date people in our social circles, that includes work.



I think it applies to women and men once we have children, our first responsibility should be to them.

The new policy is an attempt to incentivize women to stay; women who have long felt that come kiddo time they had to separate to start a family (something I don't think they have to do.)

Now, if we get butt hurt over women getting so much time off and the thought that any time away from work is bad, we should just forbid any & everything across the board that would take someone away from duty: forbid marriage by service members and have everyone live in the barracks, eat at the chow hall, forbid education, forbid smoke breaks (10 minutes breaks add up to almost 30 lost 8-hour days in a year -- not insignificant) -- we would be more efficient but probably have one hell of a recruiting problem.

There is an extreme difference between paternity leave and maternity leave. It is gender inequality. It is interesting that the Navy leadership believes that it must practice gender inequality in order to achieve gender equality. It is probably one of the better examples yet of Orwellian Doublethink.

Additionally, the extreme difference between paternity leave and maternity leave reinforces the sexist belief that it is primarily the woman's job to take care of a young infant.

If women are going to get 18 weeks of maternity leave, then men should get 18 weeks of paternity leave.


I think a mother's bonding is more essential (breastfeeding, caregiving etc.) and mothers have a stronger psychological bond having carried the child to term;

Interesting. Does that mean that the psychological bond between an parent and his/her adopted child is less strong than the bond between a parent and his/her biological child?

Mjölnir
07-17-2015, 06:08 PM
Additionally, the extreme difference between paternity leave and maternity leave reinforces the sexist belief that it is primarily the woman's job to take care of a young infant.

Or ... it recognizes that there are differences (psychologically and physically) between the maternal and paternal roles immediately following childbirth.


If women are going to get 18 weeks of maternity leave, then men should get 18 weeks of paternity leave.

On one hand I would agree, on the other as has been said ... we have to recognize the psychological and physical differences between the two situations.


Interesting. Does that mean that the psychological bond between an parent and his/her adopted child is less strong than the bond between a parent and his/her biological child?

In the short term, yes. In the long term that same time of bond can be built but it takes time. My daughter was instantly bonding to my wife, it took months for her to even start that with me.

garhkal
07-17-2015, 06:16 PM
In the short term, yes. In the long term that same time of bond can be built but it takes time. My daughter was instantly bonding to my wife, it took months for her to even start that with me.

Do you think that might have been cause your wife probably spent more time WITH the newborn than you did?

USN - Retired
07-17-2015, 07:09 PM
Or ... it recognizes that there are differences (psychologically and physically) between the maternal and paternal roles immediately following childbirth.



On one hand I would agree, on the other as has been said ... we have to recognize the psychological and physical differences between the two situations.

So are you saying that it is primarily the mommy's job to take care of a young infant, and it is primarily the daddy's job to go earn some money to support the mommy and the baby?

Are you saying that a father can not effectively be the primary care giver of an infant who is less than 18 weeks of age?

Plenty of men have been the primary caretaker of infants less than 18 weeks of age. It can be done because it has been done.

Do you even realize that you are using sexism and gender stereotypes to defend your point of view?

Do you even realize that you are basically implying that we need gender inequality in order to achieve gender equality?

And let's not forget, the mommy signed an enlistment contract. She needs to return to work as soon as possible.

Mjölnir
07-17-2015, 08:54 PM
So are you saying that it is primarily the mommy's job to take care of a young infant, and it is primarily the daddy's job to go earn some money to support the mommy and the baby?

No, you are saying that. I am saying that in the period immediately following birth, a mother has a stronger psychological connection than the father to the child she just got done carrying in her body for nine months and giving birth to. That isn't my opinion, it is medical fact.


Are you saying that a father can not effectively be the primary care giver of an infant who is less than 18 weeks of age?

No, you are saying that. A father still needs to bond with a newborn, a father does not have that same psychological connection as the mother. It isn't that it doesn't exist, it isn't the same.


Plenty of men have been the primary caretaker of infants less than 18 weeks of age. It can be done because it has been done.

Concur.


Do you even realize that you are using sexism and gender stereotypes to defend your point of view?

It isn't sexism, it is what I learned when we went through our certification to adopt from a psychologist.


Do you even realize that you are basically implying that we need gender inequality in order to achieve gender equality?

And let's not forget, the mommy signed an enlistment contract. She needs to return to work as soon as possible.

I can see where you are trying to make it out like that. You want to ignore that there are differences between a postpartum female and a new father. New dad has to bond too, has to provide etc. But ignoring the psychological effects of carrying a child to term and then delivering it simply because a man won't get the same time off of work is very narrow minded. Sure, it works if you are single or you have "chosen not to breed." But, this isn't the military of the 1940's where "if Uncle Sam wanted you to have a family they would put them in your seabag." There are many successful people in the military who have families and many who don't; I think it is severely disingenuous (and possibly based on personal bitterness) to think that those who do got there on the backs of those who don't.

As the Navy is part of the profession of arms we have to balance mission with the needs of workforce ... if we ignore the work force we won't retain people and we create a whole separate issue with retaining people to do the jobs we spend 25-50% of their first enlistment training them to do. There is no solution that makes everyone happy, we should recognize that, do what we can to make service edifying for the various things that come up in people lives (education desires, family, etc.) while not losing focus on our mission -- which we still seem to (by and large) still be able to do despite all the differences between the military of 50, 40, 30, 20 etc. years ago and now.

Rainmaker
07-17-2015, 09:21 PM
So are you saying that it is primarily the mommy's job to take care of a young infant, and it is primarily the daddy's job to go earn some money to support the mommy and the baby?

Yes. That's Exactly what I'm saying


Are you saying that a father can not effectively be the primary care giver of an infant who is less than 18 weeks of age?

No, That's not Exactly what I'm saying.


Plenty of men have been the primary caretaker of infants less than 18 weeks of age. It can be done because it has been done.

There are exceptions to every rule.


Do you even realize that you are using sexism and gender stereotypes to defend your point of view?

Yes Stereotypes are based in Truth (or else they wouldn't have become Stereotypes in the first place]


Do you even realize that you are basically implying that we need gender inequality in order to achieve gender equality?

You're summing it up well Old Salt!


And let's not forget, the mommy signed an enlistment contract. She needs to return to work as soon as possible.

I think they should be discharged, as soon as they become pregnant.... It's best for all parties involved. The Military should not exist to provide "Equality".... It exists to win wars.

Getting knocked up is the only thing you can do to intentionally make yourself unfit for duty and not run the risk of facing a courts martial. And it Happens all the time.

//EDIT: Oh wait.....Nevermind....... I thought you were talking to me?!! The Long Island Ice Teas are Strong!.....As you were.... Rainmaker Out//

USN - Retired
07-17-2015, 11:29 PM
You want to ignore that there are differences between a postpartum female and a new father. New dad has to bond too, has to provide etc.

Postpartum period or postnatal period is the period beginning immediately after the birth of a child and extending for about 6 weeks. I suspect that is the reason why the Navy originally granted women with 6 weeks of maternity leave. Why did the Navy suddenly decide that women need 18 weeks instead of 6 weeks? In other words, why "18 weeks"? What is so magical about "18 weeks"? I suspect that the Secretary of the Navy pulled the number "18" out of his ass.

If 6 weeks of maternity leave is not good enough, then an extra 12 weeks of maternity leave will probably not make any difference. It will be interesting to see if this change in maternity leave has any impact on the retention of women in the Navy.


Here's a story that is dated, yet still relevant...

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1997-02-28/lifestyle/9702260635_1_cuevas-army-pilot-equal

Mjölnir
07-17-2015, 11:37 PM
I think they should be discharged, as soon as they become pregnant.... It's best for all parties involved. The Military should not exist to provide "Equality".... It exists to win wars.

Should we discharge men as well, not for 'equality' but if we are going to suppose that a woman can't be a mom & in the military ... can in the long run a man be a father & in the military?

Now, on some level I agree with your point, but also I have to acknowledge the train left the station on that argument a long, LONG time ago and we have to work within the parameters and policies we have.


Getting knocked up is the only thing you can do to intentionally make yourself unfit for duty (provided you don't do something and not get caught) and not run the risk of facing a courts martial. And it Happens all the time.

Fixed that for you. While not being able to prove it ... have seen small groups of people (male & female) that had 'convenient' injuries just prior to a deployment.

Mjölnir
07-17-2015, 11:45 PM
Postpartum period or postnatal period is the period beginning immediately after the birth of a child and extending for about 6 weeks. I suspect that is the reason why the Navy originally granted women with 6 weeks of maternity leave. Why did the Navy suddenly decide that women need 18 weeks instead of 6 weeks? In other words, why "18 weeks"? What is so magical about "18 weeks"? I suspect that the Secretary of the Navy pulled the number "18" out of his ass.

He may have just pulled it out of his ass. The biggest reason for this is retention, and while 18 weeks is not as much as some civilian companies it is better than six.


If 6 weeks of maternity leave is not good enough, then an extra 12 weeks of maternity leave will probably not make any difference. It will be interesting to see if this change in maternity leave has any impact on the retention of women in the Navy.

For some it may not be good enough, but that is the new policy and if it isn't good enough they may need to find another thing to do with their lives. It isn't supposed to be a magic fix.



Here's a story that is dated, yet still relevant...

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1997-02-28/lifestyle/9702260635_1_cuevas-army-pilot-equal

I remember hearing about that when it happened. She was afforded a reasonable accommodation and it wasn't enough for her so she went on her way ...

This policy wouldn't have satisfied the woman in the article either.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-17-2015, 11:47 PM
Should we discharge men as well, not for 'equality' but if we are going to suppose that a woman can't be a mom & in the military ... can in the long run a man be a father & in the military?
.

This is tangential to what you are talking about, but I feel like I was a shitty father because I stayed in the military.

After I got divorced and my ex moved away and I eventually went overseas, I hardly ever got to see my kids.

In retrospect, I should have got out of the Air Force and moved near my kids.

Being in the military isn't conducive to raising children, especially for dual military parents, or single parents.

If you are a divorced parent without custody and the ex moves away, good luck remaining close to them with summer and holiday visits.