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Bos Mutus
06-10-2015, 06:37 PM
For your consideration:



WASHINGTON — Jamie Lee Henry is a doctor and major in the Army’s Medical Corps. She also is a transgender woman.
In holding an interview with BuzzFeed News, Henry is the first known active-duty Army officer to come out as transgender. She also is, to her knowledge and to the knowledge of LGBT advocates, the first and only active duty service member who has changed her name and gender within the United States military.
It’s not a secret within the military. When Henry requested that her name and gender be officially changed in mid-March, the Army “actually used female pronouns in the document” that granted the request for the change in the Defense Enrollment Eligibility Reporting System (DEERS), she said. After receiving that in May, she then used the Army’s response to change her permanent military records in the interactive Personnel Electronic Records Management System (iPERMS), as well as in her medical records. The changes came, she said, “I think to the surprise of many, that it was even possible. But it’s been confirmed, it has been changed.”
These steps may sound small and technical, but they are completely new to the military.
The official, long-standing Army policy remains that being transgender or being diagnosed with gender dysphoria — the medical diagnosis that corresponds with seeking treatment for being transgender — is incompatible with military service and grounds for dismissal.
There have been some signs that policy may change. Earlier this year, the Army raised (http://www.buzzfeed.com/chrisgeidner/army-takes-small-step-toward-out-transgender-military-servic#.hyxZkM3xWz) the level of who must authorize the discharge of trans service members from a commander in the field to the assistant secretary of the Army for manpower and reserve affairs — action that echoed a step taken as the ban on gay service members was nearing its end.
Henry says her story — and the story of many other trans people currently serving — proves that being out and trans is compatible with military service. What’s more, Henry says that being trans has made her a better service member and better doctor.
The 32-year-old Henry joined ROTC almost 15 years ago — at age 17. She has been “treating wounded, ill, and injured” service members for 10 years, ever since she did her first rotation in the psych ward at Walter Reed.
Three years ago, however, her life was in upheaval. It was a very difficult time — she even became homeless briefly — as she came out as transgender to the people in her life, and dealt with complications to her family, religious, and military life.
One of the key people who helped her through the period was her commanding officer. He provided Henry with housing, helped her continue her military career, and advocated for her family interests — all while knowing she was transgender. “My company commander restored my faith in what it means to be a soldier,” she said.
Although Henry began socially transitioning then — while engaged in a messy divorce and custody dispute — she did not begin any medical or physical steps until this past fall. At Whitman Walker Health, a Washington-based provider that specializes in LGBT-related health care, she began taking the additional steps. If the social transition was a risk, this posed a bigger one for a military officer. “The frank moment came with my command in an emergency department room, because I was afraid, as I was transitioning physically and medically, that I would lose everything.”
This wasn’t the case, as it turned out — despite having a new commander who she feared might harbor less positive views of transgender people. “My commander said, ‘I don’t care who you love, I don’t care how you identify, I want you to be healthy and I want you to be able to do your job,’” Henry said. “I was blown away … because of the stereotypes that I held, growing up in the South, growing up in a fundamentalist Christian family, that he would automatically think I was a freak, he would automatically think, ‘You need to be discharged just like the regs recommend.’”
But instead, he posed the question to her, asking what she wanted. “I said, ‘If I gave that up over that issue, knowing I can do my job and do it perfectly well, I feel that I’d be sacrificing my values and the Army’s values.’”
Her commander agreed, and she stayed. She did, however, have to maintain male grooming standards — the Army requirements for presentation and appearance. He also gave her a warning at the time. According to Henry, the commanding officer advised her not to speak to media, because if a higher-level commander ordered him to discharge her, he would have to do so.
Even less than a year later, though, the landscape regarding transgender issues has changed significantly.
A few days before Henry spoke with BuzzFeed News, on June 4, the New York Times published (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/opinion/transgender-at-war-and-in-love.html) a documentary by Fiona Dawson, “Transgender, at War and in Love,” featuring Senior Airman Logan Ireland, an out transgender service member currently serving in Afghanistan, and his fiancé, Laila Villanueva, also a transgender service member. Later that day, the Air Force, similar to the Army, raised (http://www.buzzfeed.com/chrisgeidner/air-force-takes-a-big-step-toward-allowing-transgender-servi#.vdxqMZb7yR) the level of Air Force official responsible for separations based on gender dysphoria and also announced, “Neither gender dysphoria nor self-identification as transgender is an automatic circumstance that generates involuntary separation.”
In the midst of all this, the Pentagon is set to hold an LGBT pride event hosted by Defense Secretary Ashton Carter on Tuesday. Henry was invited and, despite nearly a month of back and forth with superiors, she said on Sunday that she plans to wear the male dress uniform on Tuesday “unless they say otherwise.” She noted that she would be doing so “mainly because [her] personal timeline for this gender transition is not the same as the DOD’s timeline, as we speak. That’s the bottom line.”
Nonetheless, she will be there, watching for signs of what that timeline is.
“On Tuesday, I’m looking forward to what the secretary of defense has to say,” she said, noting Carter’s comments (http://www.buzzfeed.com/chrisgeidner/obama-administration-expresses-support-for-out-transgender-m#.qpW1Rbwjmq) in February that nothing “but their suitability for service should preclude” transgender people from serving in the military.
Henry is blunt — yet pleasant — about the difficulties she has faced and continues to face.
“Yes, it’s awkward. I’ve had to embrace awkwardness with gusto these last nine months,” she said with a laugh. “It’s not easy. It’s not easy for the people that are my family, it’s not easy for the people that are my friends prior to my transition.”
Explaining the process she has undertaken, she said, “Transitioning is very complex. It’s not just, like, surgery: one day you’re a boy, the next day you’re a girl, or vice versa, because you have some operation.”
She continued, giving an example: “You could talk about returning soldiers, or sailors, or airmen from the war over the last decade that have had mutilation to their genitalia from an IED. Their gender has not changed because they have an injury to their genitalia. OK? They’re the same gender they’ve always been.
“Just like with me: I’m the same gender I’ve always been in my mind, but all this other stuff, on the outside, is really just conforming to how I already feel and have felt my entire life.”
She quickly noted that, along with the difficulties, the process already has changed her life for the better. “People say, ‘Is this a choice?’ The choice is being healthy or sick. I can continue living a sick life, or I can live a healthy life,” she said simply, declaring that she has chosen health.
It’s also improving her work as a doctor, she said. “I find my trans experience has allowed me to relate to people, because all of us suffer, and I could relate to people’s suffering. I’m able to comfort people that feel isolated and lost and alone and broken. I can sit down with them and look them in the eyes, and say, ‘I can walk with you through this. I care about you, and I mean it.’”
Talking about her work with SPARTA — an LGBT service member and veterans group — Henry said that there are hundreds of people in the group in a similar situation to hers with whom she interacts.
“Once you see something, it’s hard to look away because my story is not unique,” she said. “And as an officer — as a field-grade officer, a major — and as a physician, hearing things — the despair, the feelings of disrespect or humiliation or whatever in not having someone’s medical and legal gender recognized — to hear that day in and day out [has] somewhat emboldened me to lead.”
To that end, Henry submitted a statement to the American Medical Association this weekend, asking the association to take a stand in support of trans troops. The resolution (http://www.palmcenter.org/files/A-15%20Resoultion%20011.pdf) that was under consideration asked the AMA to affirm that there is no medically valid reason that transgender individuals cannot serve.
“Delaying adoption of this policy,” she said in her statement, “will only serve to further harm those of us who actively serve our country in silence every day. We simply cannot wait.”
On Monday afternoon, the organization took her advice and the advice of many others, passing the resolution in question.
Talking with BuzzFeed News, Henry broadened — and simplified — the argument she made to the AMA.
“It’s not just a trans issue, right? It’s a human issue.

Posted from: http://www.buzzfeed.com/chrisgeidner/the-first-out-transgender-active-duty-us-army-officer-my-sto#.onL47OeA

Rainmaker
06-10-2015, 08:03 PM
For your consideration:

The other day Rainmaker had to go out to the local base to meet up with a friend of his for a round of golf...............The slightly overweight female gate guard that took my ID to scan it with the card reader, was wearing blue latex hospital gloves..... I guess she just couldn't risk getting any ickie germies on her...

.....Meanwhile 9th century ISIS throwbacks are chopping motherfucker's heads off and throwin bitches off roof tops bare handed....... But, American Media is ALL HOMO, ALL THE TIME!!.... 24-7 they can never stop talking about the queers......

It has to be evident to all but most completely brainwashed among us that we are 3rd century Rome on the brink of collapse...

http://www.rome.info/history/empire/fall/

TJMAC77SP
06-10-2015, 08:23 PM
The other day Rainmaker had to go out to the local base to meet up with a friend of his for a round of golf...............The slightly overweight female gate guard that took my ID to scan it with the card reader, was wearing blue latex hospital gloves..... I guess she just couldn't risk getting any ickie germies on her...

.....Meanwhile 9th century ISIS throwbacks are chopping motherfucker's heads off and throwin bitches off roof tops bare handed....... But, American Media is ALL HOMO, ALL THE TIME!!.... 24-7 they can never stop talking about the queers......

It has to be evident to all but most completely brainwashed among us that we are 3rd century Rome on the brink of collapse...

http://www.rome.info/history/empire/fall/

RM, you are truly out there my friend. Always elicit a chuckle though

Rollyn01
06-10-2015, 09:29 PM
The other day Rainmaker had to go out to the local base to meet up with a friend of his for a round of golf...............The slightly overweight female gate guard that took my ID to scan it with the card reader, was wearing blue latex hospital gloves..... I guess she just couldn't risk getting any ickie germies on her...

.....Meanwhile 9th century ISIS throwbacks are chopping motherfucker's heads off and throwin bitches off roof tops bare handed....... But, American Media is ALL HOMO, ALL THE TIME!!.... 24-7 they can never stop talking about the queers......

It has to be evident to all but most completely brainwashed among us that we are 3rd century Rome on the brink of collapse...

http://www.rome.info/history/empire/fall/

Well damn, if we're going that route, does that mean that we can blame Christianity for when we do fall? I mean, before the "legal" forced conversion, Rome was spreading like a wildfire with no signs of stopping. They got taken over and all of a sudden, internal politics screwed them over to the point they couldn't even sustain any long-term campaigns or even simple trade agreements with most of their own territories.

Rollyn01
06-10-2015, 09:40 PM
I don't care who, what, where and why. So long as you are willing to work hard to accomplish the mission, you get a pass from me. That is the most important part of being in the service. You could be dumb, weak and suck at your job. Once you're willing to work hard, you can learn to be smart, to be strong and to be better. Even if you are smart, strong and better already, nothing will happen if you are not willing to make things happen. As such, the fact that this was even an issue was and still is a waste of the military's time that could have went to kicking the enemy's ass. Beside, how much of a psychological effect would it have had on these terrorist if they knew that many of the people who are kicking their ass are the same kind of people who they believe are unworthy of life?

MikeKerriii
06-10-2015, 10:49 PM
I don't care who, what, where and why. So long as you are willing to work hard to accomplish the mission, you get a pass from me. That is the most important part of being in the service. You could be dumb, weak and suck at your job. Once you're willing to work hard, you can learn to be smart, to be strong and to be better. Even if you are smart, strong and better already, nothing will happen if you are not willing to make things happen. As such, the fact that this was even an issue was and still is a waste of the military's time that could have went to kicking the enemy's ass. Beside, how much of a psychological effect would it have had on these terrorist if they knew that many of the people who are kicking their ass are the same kind of people who they believe are unworthy of life?

Black troops scared the traitors in the Confederacy well enough.

Attitude and desire to serve count for a lot, trivia like sexuality is nearly meaningless.

With the addend bonus of changes like this driving out scum, who are just faking their commitement

Rainmaker
06-11-2015, 01:37 AM
traitors in the Confederacy
Mike, By traitors do you consider this to mean everyone who fought for the confederacy? or just the politicians that voted for succession?


With the addend bonus of changes like this driving out scum, who are just faking their commitement

And just curious.... do you think all these "social justice innovations" are intentionally designed to separate the US military from its historical recruiting base (rural traditional Christian conservatives) or do you just consider that to be an unintended side benefit?

MikeKerriii
06-11-2015, 05:51 AM
Mike, By traitors do you consider this to mean everyone who fought for the confederacy? or just the politicians that voted for succession? The Constitution defines treason clearly and is legal binding so I mean everyone that voluntarily took up arms against the United States, both politicians and soldiers




And just curious.... do you think all these "social justice innovations" are intentionally designed to separate the US military from its historical recruiting base (rural traditional Christian conservatives) or do you just consider that to be an unintended side benefit? Thee historical base is anyone healthy enough and intelligent enough to serve. the Christian bit is BS, but the Rurl bit is accurate. I am a great example of that Rural, but not a conservative. My father served and was a not religious , my brothers served and are not religious, and I served as an vocal atheist. Not to mention Jews Buddhists, Pagans , and Muslims and others who have fought and died for this nation.

If stuff like that keeps people from enlisting, the service is better off without them. Just like they were better off with the tradtion minded conservatives that screamed in 1948. We swear to follow legal orders and defend the Constitution If you can't do both stay the hell out of uniform.

We don't have any problem getting enough people to wear the uniform and these social changes mean that more are eligible

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice (http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/a/ucmjart2.htm). So help me God.

The oath is very simple, it is also something that is not discretionary, excerpt for the last line, where the oath and the Constitution have a conflict that can be solved by making the last line optional, which the services have been doing since the line was added.

garhkal
06-11-2015, 06:08 AM
RM, you are truly out there my friend. Always elicit a chuckle though

He may be nutty at times, but he does have a point. It does seem like a lot of our media seems to glorify the LGBT 'cause'.

Mjölnir
06-11-2015, 10:45 AM
Thee historical base is anyone healthy enough and intelligent enough to serve. the Christian bit is BS, but the Rurl bit is accurate.

You are mixing terms, the standard is anyone healthy enough, intelligent enough and with the moral qualifications (lack of serious police record), but the base of whom the military recruits are people from rural areas with below avg populated zip codes & who identify with some type of religion --almost 70% of whom are some type of Christian (roughly 25% do not declare one or declare atheist).

Absinthe Anecdote
06-11-2015, 11:45 AM
The other day Rainmaker had to go out to the local base to meet up with a friend of his for a round of golf...............The slightly overweight female gate guard that took my ID to scan it with the card reader, was wearing blue latex hospital gloves..... I guess she just couldn't risk getting any ickie germies on her...

.....Meanwhile 9th century ISIS throwbacks are chopping motherfucker's heads off and throwin bitches off roof tops bare handed....... But, American Media is ALL HOMO, ALL THE TIME!!.... 24-7 they can never stop talking about the queers......

It has to be evident to all but most completely brainwashed among us that we are 3rd century Rome on the brink of collapse...

http://www.rome.info/history/empire/fall/

Guys like Noam Chomsky will tell you the reason American media focuses on stories about transgenders and the Kardashians is to distract you from the real news stories.

Good thing the rise of the Internet has fostered a segmentation of news media sources. If you don't like what CNN is serving, you can hop over to Mother Jones or Alex Jones and get your news from them.

As a corrupt, decadent, and throughly brainwashed American, I'm currently enthralled with stories about subversive ideologues who claim everything is a conspiracy.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to turn on NPR so I can listen to a story on how we should do away with modern agriculture and rely on locally grown organic produce.

Absinthe Anecdote
06-11-2015, 12:18 PM
Meanwhile, we have been distracted from the most important element of the story.

Is she hot? Not nearly enough in my opinion.

I think she needs to wear more cosmetics, maybe some reality show producer will pay her to have a makeover.

With a little makeup Jamie Lee Henery could look like transgender from Sons of Anarchy.

http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/2015-06/8/21/enhanced/webdr01/enhanced-buzz-wide-18832-1433815055-8.jpg

Now the SOA transgender, is a hot transgender. She can bring home the bacon, and fry it up in the pan, then smash you over the head with the pan if you get too fresh.

http://image-cdn.zap2it.com/images/sons-of-anarchy-sweet-and-vaded-preview.jpg

TJMAC77SP
06-11-2015, 12:22 PM
The Constitution defines treason clearly and is legal binding so I mean everyone that voluntarily took up arms against the United States, both politicians and soldiers

Treason is defined by a lot of sources. I suppose there are (maybe) some die hard Britons who still think of the founding fathers as traitors. I think RM was subtly pointing out your superfluous use of the word to make your point

TJMAC77SP
06-11-2015, 12:25 PM
Meanwhile, we have been distracted from the most important element of the story.

Is she hot? Not nearly enough in my opinion.

I think she needs to wear more cosmetics, maybe some reality show producer will pay her to have a makeover.

With a little makeup Jamie Lee Henery could look like transgender from Sons of Anarchy.

http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/2015-06/8/21/enhanced/webdr01/enhanced-buzz-wide-18832-1433815055-8.jpg

Now the SOA transgender, is a hot transgender. She can bring home the bacon, and fry it up in the pan, then smash you over the head with the pan if you get too fresh.

http://image-cdn.zap2it.com/images/sons-of-anarchy-sweet-and-vaded-preview.jpg

That storyline fascinated me on SoA. That guy (Walter Goggins) can act. I remember first seeing him on The Shield.

Absinthe Anecdote
06-11-2015, 12:55 PM
That storyline fascinated me on SoA. That guy (Walter Goggins) can act. I remember first seeing him on The Shield.

Yes, it was an interesting storyline and Goggins played the part in a way that you could not help but to like the character.

As far as LGBT issues in the military, there are many more tolerant people than some Christian people claimed.

When Don't ask, Don't tell was implemented, some Christian people claimed there would be chaos. There wasn't.

When LGBT members were allowed to serve openly, some Christian people claimed there would be chaos. There wasn't.


If I can work along side a Christian fundamentalist, I'm confident that I can work along side a transgender.

Mata Leao
06-11-2015, 12:56 PM
That storyline fascinated me on SoA. That guy (Walter Goggins) can act. I remember first seeing him on The Shield.

Ol Tig was hitting that pretty regularly too.

TJMAC77SP
06-11-2015, 01:52 PM
Yes, it was an interesting storyline and Goggins played the part in a way that you could not help but to like the character.

As far as LGBT issues in the military, there are many more tolerant people than some Christian people claimed.

When Don't ask, Don't tell was implemented, some Christian people claimed there would be chaos. There wasn't.

When LGBT members were allowed to serve openly, some Christian people claimed there would be chaos. There wasn't.


If I can work along side a Christian fundamentalist, I'm confident that I can work along side a transgender.

True enough. Hell, long before DADT I served with obviously gay people and for the most part they were accepted. There was a shake of the head and life went on.

I am disheartened by the vehemence I see towards Caitlyn Jenner (figure I better get on the train and call her that). The stuff coming from the radical Christian right I expect but the stuff I see on FB from otherwise moderate people, in some cases friends. Posts of soldiers and Jenner with a caption referencing the courage award she is to receive. Stupid....just stupid.

To my knowledge Jenner herself has not referred to herself as having courage or being a hero. She has said she hopes to help the TG community, particularly as a GOP member with friends in the party. That is a good thing.

Does anyone with six brain cells the work in conjunction believe that she (or an TG individual) would CHOOSE (emphasis, not yelling) to be the way they are? Of course not, it is a life of hell. Watch the ABC interview with Jenner. You can see the pain he went through on the way to becoming her. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

TJMAC77SP
06-11-2015, 01:56 PM
Ol Tig was hitting that pretty regularly too.

That wrap up of Tig and Venus' storyline was masterful. My son and I watched SoA together and Tig's actions and words always had us laughing.

Rainmaker
06-11-2015, 02:01 PM
The Constitution defines treason clearly and is legal binding so I mean everyone that voluntarily took up arms against the United States, both politicians and soldiers

This is a good point and yet those who fought on the side of the Confederacy weren't charged. There are 2 reasons for this.

1. it wouldn't have held up in court. Article 1 Section 8 gave the states the right to secede. South Carolina seceded peacefully, it wasn't until 5 months later when the Union resupplied Ft. Sumter (an act of war) that shots were fired.

2. About 30% of civil war soldiers fought on the side of the confederacy (including 3,000 of the 10,000 jews that served) and it just wouldn't have been practical to try them all with treason. My point is that people largely fought based on where they lived.

The Civil war is the greatest tragedy in American History and never needed to be fought. Slavery was the pretext for the Northern Industrialists to get rid of the politicians of the Southern Honor Society, that couldn't be bought off and wouldn't just roll over to their demands for centralization of power. Slavery was a dying institution and would've collapsed on its own in another generation. Mostly everyone in the country at the time (other than the Christian abolitionists) were White Supremacists.


I am a great example of that Rural, but not a conservative. My father served and was a not religious , my brothers served and are not religious, and I served as an vocal atheist. Not to mention Jews Buddhists, Pagans , and Muslims and others who have fought and died for this nation.

What do you mean by "vocal" atheist? what do you go around with a bullhorn shouting God is dead or something? My son just commissioned last month as an Army Infantry Officer. Largely because, just Like yours, his family comes from a long line going all the way back to the Revolutionary war. I have several ancestors that served on the side of the Union in the MD Potomac Home Brigade. My wife is from the Panhandle of Florida and they have a different view of the history.

t
he service is better off without them. Just like they were better off with the tradition minded conservatives that screamed in 1948. We swear to follow legal orders and defend the Constitution If you can't do both stay the hell out of uniform.

So, are you saying the post WW2 military is a more effective combat force than the one that defeated the Axis? You do realize that The US military hasn't won a war since it was desegregated. Correct?


We don't have any problem getting enough people to wear the uniform and these social changes mean that more are eligible.

So, this is a military necessity because of the hordes of transvestites are now going to be eligible to serve? Is that right? I'd ask At what cost? The net effect of this constant drumbeat of the Communist Social Engineering is to undermine the reputation and morale of the military with the group that disproportionately serves in the combat arms in the greatest numbers. Rural White Men.

The military exists to fight and win the nation's wars, not to serve as a proving ground for LBGT Utopian dreams of Combat Barbie.



The oath is very simple, it is also something that is not discretionary, excerpt for the last line, where the oath and the Constitution have a conflict that can be solved by making the last line optional, which the services have been doing since the line was added

Yep, But, then there's also this... "Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of the ends for which it was established, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government"

Absinthe Anecdote
06-11-2015, 02:26 PM
That wrap up of Tig and Venus' storyline was masterful. My son and I watched SoA together and Tig's actions and words always had us laughing.

I am somewhat surprised that I liked that series as much as I did.

I throughly despise bikers, but the excellent acting and storytelling kept me coming back.

Kurt Sutter knows how to produce an interesting TV series, about the only criticism that I have of the show is how some of the montages and action sequences were done.

SomeRandomGuy
06-11-2015, 02:36 PM
Alright, the question has to be asked. When will we see true equality? When will women be held to the same physical training standards as men? That's what we all want right? Equality.

Another area where men and women are treated unequally is clothing allowances. The AF Female clothing allowance is $1622.44 while the Male allowance is only $1394.32. This is discriminatory towards men. What if want to wear the female clothing instead? Give me the extra $228.12 and let me decide on my own. I might be interested in that "Princess cut" blues shirt the ladies wear. You don't have to tuck that thing in. Also that maternity smock looks really comfortable. I'm thinking some of the male fatties could squeeze into that a lot easier than the male service dress. We need true equality where men can be treated the same as women. After all it is a choice which gender you want to be.

Absinthe Anecdote
06-11-2015, 02:46 PM
You are mixing terms, the standard is anyone healthy enough, intelligent enough and with the moral qualifications (lack of serious police record), but the base of whom the military recruits are people from rural areas with below avg populated zip codes & who identify with some type of religion --almost 70% of whom are some type of Christian (roughly 25% do not declare one or declare atheist).

There tends to be a big difference between what someone declares as their religion for their dog tags and what that means in their views toward society and culture.

I'd say that using stats derived from enlistment records on religion is a very poor barometer for attitudes toward LGBT issues.

Yes, this is part of my long running narrative that most who identify as Christians, have really created a belief system of their own making.

In modern American culture, the lable of Christian can mean too many different things to predict their views on social issues.

Rainmaker
06-11-2015, 02:53 PM
Guys like Noam Chomsky will tell you the reason American media focuses on stories about transgenders and the Kardashians is to distract you from the real news stories.

Bread and circuses


Good thing the rise of the Internet has fostered a segmentation of news media sources. If you don't like what CNN is serving, you can hop over to Mother Jones or Alex Jones and get your news from them.

Yeah. But, It's really just too much to take in sometimes and there's some really scary ideas out there!! Hey I know. Maybe for our own good ,and to keep us safe from the terrorists and all, the government should limit this this thing to just 6 centrally controlled mega media conglomerates to tell us what we really need to know?


As a corrupt, decadent, and throughly brainwashed American, I'm currently enthralled with stories about subversive ideologues who claim everything is a conspiracy.

If the official story of something is false and the truth lies hidden, then do the details really matter? Wake up and smell the Chaos!


Now if you'll excuse me, I need to turn on NPR so I can listen to a story on how we should do away with modern agriculture and rely on locally grown organic produce.
A wise man told me...Just follow the money.

Rainmaker
06-11-2015, 03:32 PM
There tends to be a big difference between what someone declares as their religion for their dog tags and what that means in their views toward society and culture.

I'd say that using stats derived from enlistment records on religion is a very poor barometer for attitudes toward LGBT issues.

Yes, this is part of my long running narrative that most who identify as Christians, have really created a belief system of their own making.

In modern American culture, the lable of Christian can mean too many different things to predict their views on social issues.

What Are you saying??? You don't believe the official Government statistics??!! you must be some kind of nutbag conspiracy theorist!!!

Bitch please... Next thing you'll be telling us is that you don't believe that we're really living in a Holographic Universe, controlled by hyper dimensional reptilian aliens, who are harvesting our emotional energies, or that their shepherds on the Earth plane are the Elite psychopaths, who communicate with them through satanic rituals . So, that they can carry out their master's diabolical plan. And In exchange for this, the aliens taught them how to shape-shift and divide and conquer the rest of humanity through the opiates of religion and politics.

TJMAC77SP
06-11-2015, 03:35 PM
I am somewhat surprised that I liked that series as much as I did.

I throughly despise bikers, but the excellent acting and storytelling kept me coming back.

Kurt Sutter knows how to produce an interesting TV series, about the only criticism that I have of the show is how some of the montages and action sequences were done.

I was equally surprised feeling the same way as you. Of course Sutter added a certain dark morality which is mostly missing in the real thing.

Absinthe Anecdote
06-11-2015, 03:59 PM
What Are you saying??? You don't believe the official Government statistics??!!

No, I believe the statistics do reflect that roughly 70 percent of service members self identify as Christians.

I am saying that those statistics are a poor barometer for predicting that group's views and attitudes on social issues.

Absinthe Anecdote
06-11-2015, 04:06 PM
Of course Sutter added a certain dark morality which is mostly missing in the real thing.

You mean the biker code of morals and ethics?

Yes, that code almost always goes out the window as soon as any form of pressure is applied.

It is much the same with any other moral code.

I kind of wish we had an entertainment section to discuss TV and movies.

Bos Mutus
06-11-2015, 04:08 PM
I am somewhat surprised that I liked that series as much as I did.

I throughly despise bikers, but the excellent acting and storytelling kept me coming back.

Kurt Sutter knows how to produce an interesting TV series, about the only criticism that I have of the show is how some of the montages and action sequences were done.

I really liked it early on...first 3 seasons or so, when in between gang wars they'd party down. Then, it got to where there was just too much shit going on all the time...IRA, and the black business guy, the white supremacists, drukg cartels, feds...it lost a little something for me...the fun, I guess.

I still watched the whole thing, but it just got a little overboard...but Tig was always a riot.

Absinthe Anecdote
06-11-2015, 04:20 PM
I really liked it early on...first 3 seasons or so, when in between gang wars they'd party down. Then, it got to where there was just too much shit going on all the time...IRA, and the black business guy, the white supremacists...it lost a little something for me...the fun, I guess.

I still watched the whole thing, but it just got a little overboard...but Tig was always a riot.

That is a very valid criticism of SOA, there were way too many plot lines going on at once. The last few seasons were exhausting to watch.

I kept comparing it to one of those Vaudville acts where the performer keeps a shitload of plates spinning.

They could have ran a few episodes in double-time and played that Benny Hill song, Yakety Sax, as the soundtrack.

Rainmaker
06-11-2015, 04:26 PM
No, I believe the statistics do reflect that roughly 70 percent of service members self identify as Christians.

I am saying that those statistics are a poor barometer for predicting that group's views and attitudes on social issues.

I don't trust the media's obvious reporting bias on the popular support for the Gay Agenda either. Goebbels would be impressed with the mass propaganda effort .

Now, I'm basing this on my own observations. I've been coaching High school kids in American Legion Baseball for over 15 years. The type of kids we usually coach in our program would be a recruiter's dream. Strong families, athletic, smart, patriotic, clean cut, drug free....

Over the years, I've made it a point to present Military Service as being a good option to consider and a Nobel profession. Increasingly, there is resistance to this among the parents about their kids risking getting killed for a society that no longer seems to represent their views. It's the same with the police forces. Whether this is being all done deliberately by design or just through Moronic socialist policies, matters not because the end result will be the same.

A lot of people are disgusted by what's happening. The whole world is looking at this Freak Show and wondering how we're allowing this to be happening. And this is Exactly the path Rome went down and why I brought up.

Eventually the citizens became so apathetic that they no longer felt it was worth defending the corrupted empire.

Absinthe Anecdote
06-11-2015, 04:40 PM
I don't trust the media's obvious reporting bias on the popular support for the Gay Agenda either. Goebbels would be impressed with the mass propaganda effort .

Now, I'm basing this on my own observations. I've been coaching High school kids in American Legion Baseball for over 15 years. The type of kids we usually coach in our program would be a recruiter's dream. Strong families, athletic, smart, patriotic, clean cut, drug free....

Over the years, I've made it a point to present Military Service as being a good option to consider and a Nobel profession. Increasingly, there is resistance to this among the parents about their kids risking getting killed for a society that no longer seems to represent their views. It's the same with the police forces. Whether this is being all done deliberately by design or just through Moronic socialist policies, matters not because the end result will be the same.

A lot of people are disgusted by what's happening. The whole world is looking at this Freak Show and wondering how we're allowing this to be happening. And this is Exactly the path Rome went down and why I brought up.

Eventually the citizens became so apathetic that they no longer felt it was worth defending the corrupted empire.

I am not as alarmist and pessimistic as you.

While I will agree that American economic and political power is in a state of decline, I don't see it as being analogous to what happened to the Roman Empire.

I certainly would not link LGBT issues to the reason that our country is losing influence on global affairs.

Go read through that NIC report I posted, if you dare.

Rainmaker
06-11-2015, 04:56 PM
True enough. Hell, long before DADT I served with obviously gay people and for the most part they were accepted. There was a shake of the head and life went on.

I am disheartened by the vehemence I see towards Caitlyn Jenner (figure I better get on the train and call her that). The stuff coming from the radical Christian right I expect but the stuff I see on FB from otherwise moderate people, in some cases friends. Posts of soldiers and Jenner with a caption referencing the courage award she is to receive. Stupid....just stupid.

To my knowledge Jenner herself has not referred to herself as having courage or being a hero. She has said she hopes to help the TG community, particularly as a GOP member with friends in the party. That is a good thing.

Does anyone with six brain cells the work in conjunction believe that she (or an TG individual) would CHOOSE (emphasis, not yelling) to be the way they are? Of course not, it is a life of hell. Watch the ABC interview with Jenner. You can see the pain he went through on the way to becoming her. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

What I'd like to know TJ, is when in the hell did the fix action for a mentally ill person become for the patient to mutilate themselves?

This is right up there with the Lobotomy experiments that went on in the 20's and 30's in the hospitals for the criminally insane.

When I was on Active duty, I had 3 herniated disks and TRICARE couldn't even authorize me to go see a Chiropractor. Hell, It practically took an act of Congress for a troop of mine to get LASIK..... And now all of a sudden the DoD is supporting Dudes chopping off their Twig and Berries, and taking huge doses of Hormones so that they can become Lesbians??!!! WTF??

Rainmaker
06-11-2015, 05:06 PM
Go read through that NIC report I posted, if you dare.

yeah, I plan to read it tonight. But, I take everything that comes out of the bloated ass intel bureaucracy with a grain of salt.

SomeRandomGuy
06-11-2015, 05:31 PM
What I'd like to know TJ, is when in the hell did the fix action for a mentally ill person become for the patient to mutilate themselves?

This is right up there with the Lobotomy experiments that went on in the 20's and 30's in the hospitals for the criminally insane.

When I was on Active duty, I had 3 herniated disks and TRICARE couldn't even authorize me to go see a Chiropractor. Hell, It practically took an act of Congress for a troop of mine to get LASIK..... And now all of a sudden the DoD is supporting Dudes chopping off their Twig and Berries, and taking huge doses of Hormones so that they can become Lesbians??!!! WTF??

I have been told in the past that I am alcohol dependent by the good people at ADAPT. What I don't understand now is why they couldn't just love me for who I am? Why did they insist on trying to change me? Wouldn't it make more sense for me to just be happy as the person I am? They should have supported me in my binge drinking. It wasn't a choice, I was born this way.

Mjölnir
06-11-2015, 06:40 PM
I cannot imagine feeling so alienated by my own body that I felt the need to even consider gender reassignment ... so I can't fully understand it.

That said, it cannot be easy to take such a step on the individual or their families. I may not understand or even agree, but everyone deserves respect as an individual. I may not agree or even like their personal decisions, but I don't see them when I look in the mirror.

Absinthe Anecdote
06-11-2015, 06:54 PM
I have been told in the past that I am alcohol dependent by the good people at ADAPT. What I don't understand now is why they couldn't just love me for who I am? Why did they insist on trying to change me? Wouldn't it make more sense for me to just be happy as the person I am? They should have supported me in my binge drinking. It wasn't a choice, I was born this way.

Poor baby. They did treat you the same way as a transgender because they supported you in making your change.

Now dry your little eyes and stop crying, you are just like a transgender and are a special little snowflake.

MikeKerriii
06-11-2015, 07:54 PM
You are mixing terms, the standard is anyone healthy enough, intelligent enough and with the moral qualifications (lack of serious police record), but the base of whom the military recruits are people from rural areas with below avg populated zip codes & who identify with some type of religion --almost 70% of whom are some type of Christian (roughly 25% do not declare one or declare atheist).

Those number make the military essential no more Christian than the general pubic is, proving at least part of my point. And Christian doesn't mean Conservative by any means. A majority of Americans are Christian and a majority f people have no trouble with the social changes in the military. This will be like the repeal of DAFT., a few scumbags will leave and the better folks will soldier on.

As I said, just as in 1948 the folks who leave will be improving the military by their leaving

MikeKerriii
06-11-2015, 07:58 PM
Treason is defined by a lot of sources. I suppose there are (maybe) some die hard Britons who still think of the founding fathers as traitors. I think RM was subtly pointing out your superfluous use of the word to make your point

In the case of US law it is defined, for purposes of law, only in one place. They committed treason against the United States and desreve no more respect for that that other traitors like the Rosenburgs deserve. Their treason is a textbook Case4 of treason under US law , my use was intentional not superfluous

MikeKerriii
06-11-2015, 08:11 PM
This is a good point and yet those who fought on the side of the Confederacy weren't charged. There are 2 reasons for this.

1. it wouldn't have held up in court. Article 1 Section 8 gave the states the right to secede. South Carolina seceded peacefully, it wasn't until 5 months later when the Union resupplied Ft. Sumter (an act of war) that shots were fired.

2. About 30% of civil war soldiers fought on the side of the confederacy (including 3,000 of the 10,000 jews that served) and it just wouldn't have been practical to try them all with treason. My point is that people largely fought based on where they lived.

The Civil war is the greatest tragedy in American History and never needed to be fought. Slavery was the pretext for the Northern Industrialists to get rid of the politicians of the Southern Honor Society, that couldn't be bought off and wouldn't just roll over to their demands for centralization of power. Slavery was a dying institution and would've collapsed on its own in another generation. Mostly everyone in the country at the time (other than the Christian abolitionists) were White Supremacists. Too bad you histroy education is so bad, the South initated both the legal civil war, vile sub-human scum in South Carolini were the ones that imitated the violence in the first place. How did the Northern merchants for the South Carolina Legislature to coimmit treason? How did the force anu ot the rest of that tratoresous scum to commit treason? that lie is getting old, hell it was old by 1862.




What do you mean by "vocal" atheist? what do you go around with a bullhorn shouting God is dead or something? My son just commissioned last month as an Army Infantry Officer. Largely because, just Like yours, his family comes from a long line going all the way back to the Revolutionary war. I have several ancestors that served on the side of the Union in the MD Potomac Home Brigade. My wife is from the Panhandle of Florida and they have a different view of the history. I have met many southerners with the view of History that it was the North that started the war, but I put that down to a poor education, The south started the violence, in defense of er right to harm other'




So, are you saying the post WW2 military is a more effective combat force than the one that defeated the Axis? You do realize that The US military hasn't won a war since it was desegregated. Correct? Are you stupid enough to think they are related, the most decorated US Military Unit who fought against the Nazis was composed almost entirely of people of color.




So, this is a military necessity because of the hordes of transvestites are now going to be eligible to serve? Is that right? I'd ask At what cost? The net effect of this constant drumbeat of the Communist Social Engineering is to undermine the reputation and morale of the military with the group that disproportionately serves in the combat arms in the greatest numbers. Rural White Men.

The military exists to fight and win the nation's wars, not to serve as a proving ground for LBGT Utopian dreams of Combat Barbie. At what cost a few scumbags will leave, improving the force immensely





Yep, But, then there's also this... "Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of the ends for which it was established, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government" The few ignorant redneck haters that remain in the US are not significant enough to make that change, no more that your ilk stopped The end of military intergration and the civil rights act. In the long term bigoted scum lose

Rainmaker
06-11-2015, 08:30 PM
Ok PC historical revisionism aside, bear with me Mike, because Rainmaker's reading between the dyslexic lines and trying to understand what you're saying....

So then, in a nutshell you seem to be saying that it's of a military necessity that we put transgenders into the military in order to rid it of the vile sub-human Christian scum that currently inhabit it...

AND also, that the most decorated fighting unit of World War 2 was a segregated unit. Therefore, desegregated Military units are the most cohesive and combat effective.... Now, Did I sum that up correctly?

Mjölnir
06-11-2015, 09:11 PM
Those number make the military essential no more Christian than the general pubic is, proving at least part of my point. And Christian doesn't mean Conservative by any means. A majority of Americans are Christian and a majority f people have no trouble with the social changes in the military. This will be like the repeal of DAFT., a few scumbags will leave and the better folks will soldier on.

As I said, just as in 1948 the folks who leave will be improving the military by their leaving

Not saying it makes the military 'Christian' ... but it is pretty clear what the base of military recruitment is. DoD knows this when they talk about diversifying the recruiting base they look for strategies to get recruits from outside that 'base'.

I don't know if someone leaving the military over a change makes them a scumbag, I actually can applaud anyone standing up for what they believe (even when I believe something different)by taking action (in this case with their feet) vice staying because they have gotten so comfortable they are unwilling to go and then being disgruntled for the rest of their career -- "Thank you for your service, have a nice life."

MikeKerriii
06-11-2015, 10:12 PM
Not saying it makes the military 'Christian' ... but it is pretty clear what the base of military recruitment is. DoD knows this when they talk about diversifying the recruiting base they look for strategies to get recruits from outside that 'base'.

I don't know if someone leaving the military over a change makes them a scumbag, I actually can applaud anyone standing up for what they believe (even when I believe something different)by taking action (in this case with their feet) vice staying because they have gotten so comfortable they are unwilling to go and then being disgruntled for the rest of their career -- "Thank you for your service, have a nice life."

In the context of this argument Christian means little, especial since a majority of both evangelicals and and even republican people OF MILITARY AGE, have no trouble with gay or transgender people

If you won't serve you nation becasue other people are treated fairly I would call you a scumbag, just as if you had refused to serve becasue Baptists, Catholics, Blacks or Jews were treated fairly. If your hate is that strong you are a liability anyway.

MikeKerriii
06-11-2015, 10:59 PM
Ok PC historical revisionism aside, bear with me Mike, because Rainmaker's reading between the dyslexic lines and trying to understand what you're saying....

So then, in a nutshell you seem to be saying that it's of a military necessity that we put transgenders into the military in order to rid it of the vile sub-human Christian scum that currently inhabit it...

AND also, that the most decorated fighting unit of World War 2 was a segregated unit. Therefore, desegregated Military units are the most cohesive and combat effective.... Now, Did I sum that up correctly?

No that getting rid of the bigoted scum is a help side effect of acting like decent human beings

Your Bigoted twist is bunch of BS, and an insult to the folks that serve in a integrated military, I said nothing like that only a defective mind would think so. I do s feel a bit sorry for you becasue your kind of anti-American bigot is dying off pretty quickly and you mist be lonely, and frustrated at having to hide who you really are from the public.

It is not revised history the first shot of the civil war was fired by trooups under the command of a scumbag traitor named General P.G.T Beauregard it was fired at a vessel named The Star of the West

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/major-anderson-ft-sumter_Dir/first-shot-civil-war.htm

And if you read South Carolina's articles of secession the prime reason was slavery. The shooting started becasue some thugs wanted to own people

Absinthe Anecdote
06-11-2015, 11:32 PM
No that getting rid of the bigoted scum is a help side effect of acting like decent human beings

Your Bigoted twist is bunch of BS, and an insult to the folks that serve in a integrated military, I said nothing like that only a defective mind would think so. I do s feel a bit sorry for you becasue your kind of anti-American bigot is dying off pretty quickly and you mist be lonely, and frustrated at having to hide who you really are from the public.

It is not revised history the first shot of the civil war was fired by trooups under the command of a scumbag traitor named General P.G.T Beauregard it was fired at a vessel named The Star of the West

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/major-anderson-ft-sumter_Dir/first-shot-civil-war.htm

And if you read South Carolina's articles of secession the prime reason was slavery. The shooting started becasue some thugs wanted to own people

Your repeated use of "scumbag" to describe Southerns involved in the American Civil War is curious to me.

It makes you sound overly emotional about a war that ended 150 years ago. I can understand having an opinion of successionists as traitors, but I don't understand the use of such strong language.

Are you that emotional about the Civil War?

If so, why?

Are you one of those guys who collects Civil War relics and dresses up in Union uniforms to re-enact battles?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Rainmaker
06-12-2015, 02:06 AM
No that getting rid of the bigoted scum is a help side effect of acting like decent human beings

Your Bigoted twist is bunch of BS, and an insult to the folks that serve in a integrated military, I said nothing like that only a defective mind would think so. I do s feel a bit sorry for you becasue your kind of anti-American bigot is dying off pretty quickly and you mist be lonely, and frustrated at having to hide who you really are from the public.

It is not revised history the first shot of the civil war was fired by trooups under the command of a scumbag traitor named General P.G.T Beauregard it was fired at a vessel named The Star of the West

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/major-anderson-ft-sumter_Dir/first-shot-civil-war.htm

And if you read South Carolina's articles of secession the prime reason was slavery. The shooting started becasue some thugs wanted to own people

You have a really simplistic view of things. Harper's weekly was a New York Fish wrapper which, was used for civil war propaganda. Lincoln even called Illustrator Thomas Nast "The Union's best recruiting sergeant."

Now, I don't agree with him. But, Here's something else Honest Abe said....

“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races – that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.”

Fourth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Charleston, Illinois, September 18, 1858
(The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, pp. 145-146.)

Try a little non PC reading, once in a while. You Might even learn something of value...You See, We don't have to be afraid of the truth Nelson, It can stand on its own just fine.

http://www.abbevilleinstitute.org/review/ft-sumter-the-first-act-of-aggression/

Rollyn01
06-12-2015, 02:30 AM
You have a really simplistic view of things. Harper's weekly was a New York Fish wrapper which, was used for civil war propaganda. Lincoln even called Illustrator Thomas Nast "The Union's best recruiting sergeant."

Now, I don't agree with him. But, Here's something else Honest Abe said....

“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races – that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.”

Fourth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Charleston, Illinois, September 18, 1858
(The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, pp. 145-146.)

Try a little non PC reading, once in a while. You Might even learn something of value...You See, We don't have to be afraid of the truth Nelson, It can stand on its own just fine.

http://www.abbevilleinstitute.org/review/ft-sumter-the-first-act-of-aggression/

You mean like how the "3/5 of a man" rule wasn't about equality since it was really about making sure the southern states didn't have more representation in Congress due to population and that it was the North that shot that down to 3/5? How sad is it that most of the time, the only reason that black people had any great achievements, it was really a side-effect and never the direct intention of white people against other white people? The Civil War was all about economics. The south had a large labor force and paid next to nothing for it. The North couldn't compete and so began economic sanctions. The more they argue, the more power minorities gain. But hey, if whitey wants to keep trying to control themselves, by the time it's all said and done, white people might end up as slaves (not counting those who are already slaves in the economic sense).

By the way, the howitzer was finally delivered. Where are we putting this thing? And if you say the roof, that'd better mean you fixed the gaping hole you cause from playing with the laser designator. I lifted your prints from it.

MikeKerriii
06-12-2015, 02:34 AM
You have a really simplistic view of things. Harper's weekly was a New York Fish wrapper which, was used for civil war propaganda. Lincoln even called Illustrator Thomas Nast "The Union's best recruiting sergeant."

Now, I don't agree with him. But, Here's something else Honest Abe said....

“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races – that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.”

Fourth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Charleston, Illinois, September 18, 1858
(The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, pp. 145-146.)

Try a little non PC reading, once in a while. You Might even learn something of value...You See, We don't have to be afraid of the truth Nelson, It can stand on its own just fine.

http://www.abbevilleinstitute.org/review/ft-sumter-the-first-act-of-aggression/

Poor baby, that is not even a decent straw-man. Just some bable that didn;'t addess the questions

There are no credible sources that the South did not open fire first at Sumter. The south started the War and even the Soputhern Secretary of State Toombs said it was a mistake. You seem to have some trouble with reality

Tol return to the rginal subject trans folk entering the military will do no real harm, the excuses that people are trying were just as ignorant when used against blacks, women and gays. Racist and bigoted rolls like yourself are not able to change what is happening but your weeping and gnashing of teeth is entertaining as hell.
Trans folks coming in mean that a certian kind ofd scum won't be entering, Christian will enlist, Jews, Blacks, Buddhists and LGBT people will enlists but fewer bigots will enlist. that is a win-win situation for the nation and the miltary

TJMAC77SP
06-12-2015, 12:45 PM
You mean the biker code of morals and ethics?

Yes, that code almost always goes out the window as soon as any form of pressure is applied.

It is much the same with any other moral code.

I kind of wish we had an entertainment section to discuss TV and movies.

What I was saying that Sutter injected a code of moral and ethics I think is missing in real life. There was a certain undeserved glorification of the lifestyle much in the same way as The Sopranos. I remember many a conversation with people of Italian decent who bought into the myth.

TJMAC77SP
06-12-2015, 12:55 PM
What I'd like to know TJ, is when in the hell did the fix action for a mentally ill person become for the patient to mutilate themselves?

This is right up there with the Lobotomy experiments that went on in the 20's and 30's in the hospitals for the criminally insane.

When I was on Active duty, I had 3 herniated disks and TRICARE couldn't even authorize me to go see a Chiropractor. Hell, It practically took an act of Congress for a troop of mine to get LASIK..... And now all of a sudden the DoD is supporting Dudes chopping off their Twig and Berries, and taking huge doses of Hormones so that they can become Lesbians??!!! WTF??


As with almost every topic we discuss here (and everyone else does elsewhere) it is a lot more complicated then a couple of sound bites. My point was simply that these TG people just can't be dismissed as freaks or perverts and they certainly aren't evil. They suffer an incredible amount of pain in there life and were a man who prayed regularly I would probably offer a prayer that I, nor anyone I love never has to suffer like that. I simply think that we need to stop vilifying them and try to come to some workable solution.

The issues you cite are pretty much irrelevant. The DoD stance on chiropractor is directly related to the AMA position on the entire field. Lasik was opposed early on due to fears of damage to a (perceived) weakened eyeball. My guess is that your troop tried to get one a long time ago and/or he/she was on flying status.

TJMAC77SP
06-12-2015, 12:56 PM
I have been told in the past that I am alcohol dependent by the good people at ADAPT. What I don't understand now is why they couldn't just love me for who I am? Why did they insist on trying to change me? Wouldn't it make more sense for me to just be happy as the person I am? They should have supported me in my binge drinking. It wasn't a choice, I was born this way.

That clever attempt would work if being a TG person led to dangerous behavior (to oneself and others) and/or early death.

TJMAC77SP
06-12-2015, 01:03 PM
In the case of US law it is defined, for purposes of law, only in one place. They committed treason against the United States and desreve no more respect for that that other traitors like the Rosenburgs deserve. Their treason is a textbook Case4 of treason under US law , my use was intentional not superfluous


Being as your injection of the word did nothing to help make your point and was therefore unnecessary and needless, its use was, by definition, superfluous..





Black troops scared xxx xxxxxxxx xx the Confederacy well enough.

Attitude and desire to serve count for a lot, trivia like sexuality is nearly meaningless.

With the addend bonus of changes like this driving out scum, who are just faking their commitement

TJMAC77SP
06-12-2015, 01:22 PM
Poor baby, that is not even a decent straw-man. Just some bable that didn;'t addess the questions

There are no credible sources that the South did not open fire first at Sumter. The south started the War and even the Soputhern Secretary of State Toombs said it was a mistake. You seem to have some trouble with reality

Tol return to the rginal subject trans folk entering the military will do no real harm, the excuses that people are trying were just as ignorant when used against blacks, women and gays. Racist and bigoted rolls like yourself are not able to change what is happening but your weeping and gnashing of teeth is entertaining as hell.
Trans folks coming in mean that a certian kind ofd scum won't be entering, Christian will enlist, Jews, Blacks, Buddhists and LGBT people will enlists but fewer bigots will enlist. that is a win-win situation for the nation and the miltary

You are trying to dismiss a topic which you introduced and have defended. You will have to excuse us if we merely expand on the topic you introduced.

You missed RM's point about the 'first shot'. He didn't deny the first battle of Fort Sumter point but merely pointed out that South Carolina had already seceded and had attempted to get the fort to surrender. The act of not surrendering, in the viewpoint of South Carolina was an act of war.

There are many who feel the actual first 'shots' of the civil war were at Harper's Ferry, Virginia in 1859. Of course if we limit the consideration to the acts of nation states then of course Fort Sumter is first. I once took a history course on the US Civil War. The syllabus did not start on April 12, 1861 but in the early colonial period. In order to fully grasp the war itself you must understand all that caused it. Not one thing but all things.

You have a very typical and myopic view of the Civil War and like many want to boil it down to a formula that works well for Hollywood movies but seldom works in real life.

Absinthe Anecdote
06-12-2015, 02:08 PM
What I was saying that Sutter injected a code of moral and ethics I think is missing in real life. There was a certain undeserved glorification of the lifestyle much in the same way as The Sopranos. I remember many a conversation with people of Italian decent who bought into the myth.

I get what you are saying, and I agree that bikers were glamorized and glorified. It is fiction, and the job of anyone telling a fictional story is to make it interesting and exciting in a manner that keeps people coming back.

The job of the viewer is to recognize fiction for what it is. We know that always doesn't happen; even you have bought into the glorification of cowboys vis-a-vis country music. You really should stop listening to that crap, it is bad for you.

I do think that bikers, the mafia, and criminals have constructed their own moral codes, and they do stick by them in easy situations. However, apply the slightest pressure, and that moral code often shatters.

Sutter showed the bikers sticking to their code in the face of death, if he wanted you to like the character. If he wanted you to dislike the character, he would show them toss the code aside too easily.

There weren't any "good guys" on that show in the sense of the Hollywood convention of White hat and Black hat. Everyone was soiled to a degree.

Not that much different than legitimate businessmen, politicians and even regular people.

MikeKerriii
06-12-2015, 02:39 PM
Your repeated use of "scumbag" to describe Southerns involved in the American Civil War is curious to me.

It makes you sound overly emotional about a war that ended 150 years ago. I can understand having an opinion of successionists as traitors, but I don't understand the use of such strong language.

Are you that emotional about the Civil War?

If so, why?

Are you one of those guys who collects Civil War relics and dresses up in Union uniforms to re-enact battles?

Inquiring minds want to know.
It is somewhat emotional; becasue the folks that lie about what happened t the start of the civil war tend to be scumbags themselves. Making a war fought to defend atrocity seem like a economic struggle and defending the people who initiated the violence as somehow being victims

Scumbag is not the word I would normal use, my option has be moderated becasue I don't use the words that would be approtate on-;line ( I would get banned). I think Scumbag is approtriate to murderous traitors, who killed to preserve evil while pretending it was for something else than their right to own people.

And if people were not flying the traitors flag and still taking about secession the subject would simply die off, but the excat same kind of scumbags are prevalent to day, amaking excuse for thier ilk and wishing for ther good old daysm

Do you think scumbag is somehow a wrote thing to call someone than a murderous traitor, It is being relatively kind

MikeKerriii
06-12-2015, 02:47 PM
What I'd like to know TJ, is when in the hell did the fix action for a mentally ill person become for the patient to mutilate themselves?

This is right up there with the Lobotomy experiments that went on in the 20's and 30's in the hospitals for the criminally insane.

When I was on Active duty, I had 3 herniated disks and TRICARE couldn't even authorize me to go see a Chiropractor. Hell, It practically took an act of Congress for a troop of mine to get LASIK..... And now all of a sudden the DoD is supporting Dudes chopping off their Twig and Berries, and taking huge doses of Hormones so that they can become Lesbians??!!! WTF??

Dod would not let you see a quack, good for DOD

Lasik was banned becasue of some problems with the original procedure, doubts about safety and problems with glare at night on the incision lines. DOD embraced it when those problem were rectified.

Sex change procedure is not exactly new, It has been going on probably longer than most here have been alive(1931). there were problems that precluded service but no medical expert thinks they normally exist now.

Mjölnir
06-12-2015, 03:04 PM
It is somewhat emotional; becasue the folks that lie about what happened t the start of the civil war tend to be scumbags themselves. Making a war fought to defend atrocity seem like a economic struggle and defending the people who initiated the violence as somehow being victims

Scumbag is not the word I would normal use, my option has be moderated becasue I don't use the words that would be approtate on-;line ( I would get banned). I think Scumbag is approtriate to murderous traitors, who killed to preserve evil while pretending it was for something else than their right to own people.

And if people were not flying the traitors flag and still taking about secession the subject would simply die off, but the excat same kind of scumbags are prevalent to day, amaking excuse for thier ilk and wishing for ther good old daysm

Do you think scumbag is somehow a wrote thing to call someone than a murderous traitor, It is being relatively kind

Slavery was but one of the issues that predicated the Civil War. In reading correspondence of many of the regular confederates, they ironically do discuss the issue of the federal government and the states (sure not all, but it was a factor -- most of the soldiers did not own slaves.) the main debate at the time IRT state's rights was if a citizen from Georgia retained his state endowed rights when outside that state.

Also, most Southerns at this time identified themselves more as a citizen of their state (Virginian, Georgian) than with the federal government. This was normal at the time.

Economics was a big factor (tied to slavery) as the mostly agrarian south could not keep up with the mostly industrialized north if slavery were to be abolished. While the north had in the past also benefited from the south producing goods with a marginal labor cost as part of the overall production cost / end consumer cost. Once this looked to get changed, the (federal) government was offering little in the way to help either industrialize or augment the associated cost.

I agree, slavery was wrong, evil. But to look at a 19th century issue with a 20th/21st century moral lens is limiting.

MikeKerriii
06-12-2015, 03:33 PM
Slavery was but one of the issues that predicated the Civil War. In reading correspondence of many of the regular confederates, they ironically do discuss the issue of the federal government and the states (sure not all, but it was a factor -- most of the soldiers did not own slaves.) the main debate at the time IRT state's rights was if a citizen from Georgia retained his state endowed rights when outside that state.

Also, most Southerns at this time identified themselves more as a citizen of their state (Virginian, Georgian) than with the federal government. This was normal at the time.

Economics was a big factor (tied to slavery) as the mostly agrarian south could not keep up with the mostly industrialized north if slavery were to be abolished. While the north had in the past also benefited from the south producing goods with a marginal labor cost as part of the overall production cost / end consumer cost. Once this looked to get changed, the (federal) government was offering little in the way to help either industrialize or augment the associated cost.

I agree, slavery was wrong, evil. But to look at a 19th century issue with a 20th/21st century moral lens is limiting.

Read the articles of secession for South Carolina, The south Carolina legislature definably thought it was primarily about slavery.

As far as judging people in the pat, does that meant that folks like Stalin and Mao now get a free pass? Every western nation had given up slavery by then.

Mjölnir
06-12-2015, 03:41 PM
Read the articles of secession for South Carolina, The south Carolina legislature definably thought it was primarily about slavery.

As far as judging people in the pat, does that meant that folks like Stalin and Mao now get a free pass? Every western nation had given up slavery by then.

Yes, the articles of secession from ALL the southern states cite slavery; you were talking about the individuals ... as was my example. Of course slavery was a major issue for the state's governments ... but was it (as you said) for most of the people. For many yes, for many no.

No one gets a "free pass", but if you go into a study of a subject with your mind made up with what the outcome will be ... you are learning nothing.

Absinthe Anecdote
06-12-2015, 03:57 PM
It is somewhat emotional; becasue the folks that lie about what happened t the start of the civil war tend to be scumbags themselves. Making a war fought to defend atrocity seem like a economic struggle and defending the people who initiated the violence as somehow being victims

Scumbag is not the word I would normal use, my option has be moderated becasue I don't use the words that would be approtate on-;line ( I would get banned). I think Scumbag is approtriate to murderous traitors, who killed to preserve evil while pretending it was for something else than their right to own people.

And if people were not flying the traitors flag and still taking about secession the subject would simply die off, but the excat same kind of scumbags are prevalent to day, amaking excuse for thier ilk and wishing for ther good old daysm

Do you think scumbag is somehow a wrote thing to call someone than a murderous traitor, It is being relatively kind

I think I understand the gist of what you are saying. Not that it matters, but your use of the word scumbag paints the picture of someone who is overcome by emotion to the extent of being irrational.

No biggie, I myself sometimes post provocative thoughts and very likely sound like a lunatic to many. Sometimes I do it merely to draw ire from a fellow board member in order to amuse myself. I suspect there are those who are deliberately pushing buttons to draw exactly that type of reaction out of you.

Good or bad, that is how we often play in this sandbox of ideas called the MTF. If you keep calling my ancestors scumbags, I'm likely to kick a little sand in your face too.

As far as your view of the root causes of the Civil War, I wonder if you fully understand how slavery became the point of the conflict.

It wasn't as if the motivations of Northern states were pure either. While there were abolitionists that objected to slavery on principle, the issue didn't gain traction from that sector.

Someone earlier mentioned how Southern states were getting more representation in the House of Representatives based on census tallies that included slaves. It was from that sector that the issue of slavery was pushed to the center point of contention.

The divisions between North and South deepened when new territories were being considered for admittance to the Union, and the issue of slavery in relation to seats in the House of Representatives came up again.

There were also economic factors that led to the conflict that shouldn't be ignored.

Regardless, once the war started the Abolitionists gained traction and the message of "slavery is morally wrong" came to the forefront.

We all know that slavery is morally wrong today, but not everyone in the 19th Century did.

I think you are viewing the Civil War primarily through the lens of Hollywood rather than putting events in context of the era.

MikeKerriii
06-12-2015, 11:23 PM
The other day Rainmaker had to go out to the local base to meet up with a friend of his for a round of golf...............The slightly overweight female gate guard that took my ID to scan it with the card reader, was wearing blue latex hospital gloves..... I guess she just couldn't risk getting any ickie germies on her...

.....Meanwhile 9th century ISIS throwbacks are chopping motherfucker's heads off and throwin bitches off roof tops bare handed....... But, American Media is ALL HOMO, ALL THE TIME!!.... 24-7 they can never stop talking about the queers......

It has to be evident to all but most completely brainwashed among us that we are 3rd century Rome on the brink of collapse...

http://www.rome.info/history/empire/fall/

You seem to spend a lot of your time endorsing the same kind of thinking as ISIS. Boith you and they on you live and abbreviate hate, divison and intolerance. Fighting both Bigots at home and Bigots like ISIS at the same time seems appropriate. different faces of the same evil

Rome only fell long after the Christians took over, so we are slowing going in the opposite way which just might make us avoid their mistakes

Rainmaker
06-14-2015, 05:06 AM
Read the articles of secession for South Carolina, The south Carolina legislature definably thought it was primarily about slavery.

As far as judging people in the pat, does that meant that folks like Stalin and Mao now get a free pass? Every western nation had given up slavery by then.

Mike.. If the Civil war was primarily this great Northern crusade to end slavery, then why did Lincoln allow the border states that didn't secceed to continue practicing slavery throughout the war? Being from Delaware I'm sure that you're well aware that Delaware was one of the 5 Union slave states (along with MD, KY, MO And WV) . Aren't you?

"Since Lincoln issued The Emancipation Proclamation as a military measure, it didn’t apply to border slave states like Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri, all of which had remained loyal to the Union."

http://www.history.com/news/5-things-you-may-not-know-about-lincoln-slavery-and-emancipation

Rainmaker
06-14-2015, 05:20 AM
You seem to spend a lot of your time endorsing the same kind of thinking as ISIS. Boith you and they on you live and abbreviate hate, divison and intolerance. Fighting both Bigots at home and Bigots like ISIS at the same time seems appropriate. different faces of the same evil

Rome only fell long after the Christians took over, so we are slowing going in the opposite way which just might make us avoid their mistakes

It's ok Mike you can stop protesting now.... They already said you could come out of the closet.

MikeKerriii
06-14-2015, 05:50 PM
It's ok Mike you can stop protesting now.... They already said you could come out of the closet.

I am a 60 year old straight white male, married to the same woman for woman for over 33 years with two grom sone. I am interested in the subject because vile bigots like you would have kept me from marring her or had me arrested for being married to her in until the SC slapped ignorant bigots like yourself , bigot using the same biblical excuses, same hateful retoric and often the ame Churches, the Southern Baptists for example.

You might be bigoted and self-centered enough to only support rights for people like your self, that is obvious the case. But not everyone is that way, Some of us act like responsible citizens.

MikeKerriii
06-14-2015, 05:57 PM
Mike.. If the Civil war was primarily this great Northern crusade to end slavery, then why did Lincoln allow the border states that didn't succeed to continue practicing slavery throughout the war? Being from Delaware I'm sure that you're well aware that Delaware was one of the 5 Union slave states (along with MD, KY, MO And WV) . Aren't you?

"Since Lincoln issued The Emancipation Proclamation as a military measure, it didn’t apply to border slave states like Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri, all of which had remained loyal to the Union."

http://www.history.com/news/5-things-you-may-not-know-about-lincoln-slavery-and-emancipation

The Civil war was not the great Union war to stop slavery, Secession was the attempt by a bunch of vile human garbage to keep slavery alive and profitable. The Notth was fighting mosty to preserve the, a nation traitors were trying to destroy. For the North Slaver was a side issue for the south it was the main issue.

Rainmaker
06-14-2015, 07:13 PM
The Civil war was not the great Union war to stop slavery, Secession was the attempt by a bunch of vile human garbage to keep slavery alive and profitable. The Notth was fighting mosty to preserve the, a nation traitors were trying to destroy. For the North Slaver was a side issue for the south it was the main issue.

The war was basically a 2nd American revolution. Only this time the British won

Rainmaker
06-14-2015, 07:21 PM
I am a 60 year old straight white male, married to the same woman for woman for over 33 years with two grom sone. I am interested in the subject because vile bigots like you would have kept me from marring her or had me arrested for being married to her in until the SC slapped ignorant bigots like yourself , bigot using the same biblical excuses, same hateful retoric and often the ame Churches, the Southern Baptists for example.

You might be bigoted and self-centered enough to only support rights for people like your self, that is obvious the case. But not everyone is that way, Some of us act like responsible citizens.

I don't care who you married Mike. that's your business. Not judging you,I'm simply stating facts. And because it conflicts with your worldview you're reacting angrily because deep down you know that it's true.

Now, While Rainmaker can definitely appreciate your rhetoric, I find your inability to separate the rhetoric from reality hypocritical.

You claim to be an egalitarian. But, you seem to consider anybody who disagrees with you as sub human scum. You're what Marx termed a useful idiot.

May God have mercy on your soul sir. Rainmaker out//

USN - Retired
06-14-2015, 07:29 PM
You might be bigoted and self-centered enough to only support rights for people like your self, that is obvious the case.

Are people who oppose polygamy and polygamist also bigoted and self-centered?

Are people who oppose the legalization of prostitution also bigoted and self-centered?

TJMAC77SP
06-14-2015, 10:47 PM
I am a 60 year old straight white male, married to the same woman for woman for over 33 years with two grom sone. I am interested in the subject because vile bigots like you would have kept me from marring her or had me arrested for being married to her in until the SC slapped ignorant bigots like yourself , bigot using the same biblical excuses, same hateful retoric and often the ame Churches, the Southern Baptists for example.

You might be bigoted and self-centered enough to only support rights for people like your self, that is obvious the case. But not everyone is that way, Some of us act like responsible citizens.

Lighten up Francis.

MikeKerriii
06-15-2015, 04:11 AM
Are people who oppose polygamy and polygamist also bigoted and self-centered?

Are people who oppose the legalization of prostitution also bigoted and self-centered?

I was talking to an open racist who think segregation is a good idea.

MikeKerriii
06-15-2015, 04:15 AM
I don't care who you married Mike. that's your business. Not judging you,I'm simply stating facts. And because it conflicts with your worldview you're reacting angrily because deep down you know that it's true.

Now, While Rainmaker can definitely appreciate your rhetoric, I find your inability to separate the rhetoric from reality hypocritical.

You claim to be an egalitarian. But, you seem to consider anybody who disagrees with you as sub human scum. You're what Marx termed a useful idiot.

May God have mercy on your soul sir. Rainmaker out//

I think that people that want to harm good people just becasue of the color of their skin or whom they love are scum.

You did not state a a fact when you implied I was in the closet, just you just made a pitiful attempt at what you might have thought was an insult

MikeKerriii
06-15-2015, 04:18 AM
The war was basically a 2nd American revolution. Only this time the British won

No this time the aristocratic lords in their manor/plantation got their asses kicked. As in the first revolution more people were free at the end than in the beginning, despite the attempt of the south to prevent that. Southern Ante-bellum culture was nearly identical British culture minus the top level of royalty. Where gentleman belonging to a certain class not as a description of behavior

Rainmaker
06-15-2015, 12:38 PM
I was talking to an open racist who think segregation is a good idea.

Rainmaker don't support chicks with dicks serving in the military, so that makes him an open racist that supports segregation...

Do you not see the lunacy of the arguments you're throwing up?

Man we've had our share of leftist zealots on here. But you take the cake Mike

Rainmaker
06-15-2015, 02:39 PM
No this time the aristocratic lords in their manor/plantation got their asses kicked. As in the first revolution more people were free at the end than in the beginning, despite the attempt of the south to prevent that. Southern Ante-bellum culture was nearly identical British culture minus the top level of royalty. Where gentleman belonging to a certain class not as a description of behavior

It's nice that you can still believe everything just like your grade school teacher told you.....But, "Honest Abe" was the highest paid corporate whore lawyer of his day..... AND I'm not flying a confederate flag, I'm from Western MD and I've served my time from Just Cause to Desert Storm to 6 x OEF/OIF deployments and everything in between, and my son is serving right now today, so you can take your Rainbow-Flag waiving, self- righteous indignation and stick it right up your Sick Heterophobic White Christian Hating Ass. Cause I'll say whatever the hell I want. NomSayin?

My Grown sons don't owe your Grown sons jack shit. Just because whoever you decided to Fuck wasn't white. That's your business. I don't care. But, That doesn't make you special. You don't get to speak for me and you don't speak for them either.

ALL wars are economic. Period. Any other stated reason is propaganda so, politicians can convince the public to allow them to send our kids off to fight and die for the state and the pampered life style of the few wealthy parasites who profit from it.

I know that you can't stand to hear the truth and I hate be the one to burst your bubble. But, you're 60 years old and supposedly served in the Military, so you should already know this shit as well Comrade.

Go research the Morrill tarriff that increased taxes on imports by 70% to benefit Northern Merchant industrial Interests at the expense of the south's agrarian economy. Or the secret plan to break the agreement with the Confederates and resupply Ft. Sumter to provoke the war and let us know what you find out.

Rainmaker
06-15-2015, 04:22 PM
Dod would not let you see a quack, good for DOD

Lasik was banned becasue of some problems with the original procedure, doubts about safety and problems with glare at night on the incision lines. DOD embraced it when those problem were rectified.

Sex change procedure is not exactly new, It has been going on probably longer than most here have been alive(1931). there were problems that precluded service but no medical expert thinks they normally exist now.

so Mike your "position" is that Chiropractors are "quacks" and Lasik vision surgery is risky. But, chopping off a dude's nuts, crafting a cooch out of what's left and then injecting him with massive doses of sex hormones to "fix" an underlying psychological problem is normal?

http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/04/14905/

MikeKerriii
06-16-2015, 03:11 AM
Rainmaker don't support chicks with dicks serving in the military, so that makes him an open racist that supports segregation...

Do you not see the lunacy of the arguments you're throwing up?

Man we've had our share of leftist zealots on here. But you take the cake Mike

No many many othet r post from you make you a racist that believes in segregation

MikeKerriii
06-16-2015, 03:22 AM
It's nice that you can still believe everything just like your grade school teacher told you.....But, "Honest Abe" was the highest paid corporate whore lawyer of his day..... AND I'm not flying a confederate flag, I'm from Western MD and I've served my time from Just Cause to Desert Storm to 6 x OEF/OIF deployments and everything in between, and my son is serving right now today, so you can take your Rainbow-Flag waiving, self- righteous indignation and stick it right up your Sick Heterophobic White Christian Hating Ass. Cause I'll say whatever the hell I want. NomSayin?

My Grown sons don't owe your Grown sons jack shit. Just because whoever you decided to Fuck wasn't white. That's your business. I don't care. But, That doesn't make you special. You don't get to speak for me and you don't speak for them either.

ALL wars are economic. Period. Any other stated reason is propaganda so, politicians can convince the public to allow them to send our kids off to fight and die for the state and the pampered life style of the few wealthy parasites who profit from it.

I know that you can't stand to hear the truth and I hate be the one to burst your bubble. But, you're 60 years old and supposedly served in the Military, so you should already know this shit as well Comrade.

Go research the Morrill tarriff that increased taxes on imports by 70% to benefit Northern Merchant industrial Interests at the expense of the south's agrarian economy. Or the secret plan to break the agreement with the Confederates and resupply Ft. Sumter to provoke the war and let us know what you find out.

Willful ingnorance is support of treason typical, the sount want to keep commint oceneities for cultural asnd fiancial reasons, Much like a pimp would fight to keep his "property", but pimps are not as vile. Typical of those that tkink bigotry and hate are "American values". why would I hate white people, I have said nothing against whreite people just that I don't think they are any better the any other groups. You are getting to the point of verbal drooling now.

Try reading the traitor states articles of secession. Slavery is the root casue mentioned in almost all. The idea that It was mainly an ecomomic fight came much later when bigots tried to justify treason, It was a issue but a minor issue

there was no agreement not o supply Sumter because the govement thought even negotiating the agreement would be recognizing criminals as a government. If there was is there any reason to considered unofficial agreements with criminals binding?

MikeKerriii
06-16-2015, 03:24 AM
so Mike your "position" is that Chiropractors are "quacks" and Lasik vision surgery is risky. But, chopping off a dude's nuts, crafting a cooch out of what's left and then injecting him with massive doses of sex hormones to "fix" an underlying psychological problem is normal?

http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/04/14905/ Chiropractors are quacks and laser eye surgery was risky, even if it is not now

TJMAC77SP
06-16-2015, 01:21 PM
MikeKerriii.

Although I haven't figured out how having the use of only 4 fingers is the reason behind the posts you offer, please for the sake of God (and our ability to read and understand said posts) get and use Dragon Naturally Speaking (I am assuming your vocal cords work).

Rainmaker
06-16-2015, 05:50 PM
MikeKerriii.

Although I haven't figured out how having the use of only 4 fingers is the reason behind the posts you offer, please for the sake of God (and our ability to read and understand said posts) get and use Dragon Naturally Speaking (I am assuming your vocal cords work).

Try to keep up TJ.... All you need to know is that The founders were White. But, they were also vile sub-human Traitorous/ treasonous, murdering, racist, hating ,scumbag, bigoted, pieces of garbage.

But, To truly be able to understand were @ MikeKerriii is coming from we first have to go all the way back to his childhood.......let's take a look at the tape... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9XQDofW17A