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sandsjames
05-29-2015, 05:38 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/29/us/mohammed-cartoon-contest/index.html

Awesome...let's disparage millions of people...let's make those who don't hate us start hating us. OH....and let's all be "outraged" and shocked when this place gets attacked.

Mjölnir
05-29-2015, 05:45 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/29/us/mohammed-cartoon-contest/index.html

Awesome...let's disparage millions of people...let's make those who don't hate us start hating us. OH....and let's all be "outraged" and shocked when this place gets attacked.

I wouldn't be outraged or shocked if there was violence.

But, folks in our country do have a right to be idiots, a right to be misinformed and a right to be non-violently antagonistic. At the point that the antagonized become violent it makes them the criminal ... pretty simple.

Rusty Jones
05-29-2015, 05:49 PM
What they're doing is counterproductive to their cause. They're only going to create more sympathy for Muslims. I remember how WJ5 used to complain about atheists slamming Christians more than or instead of Muslims. Well, there's his answer.

sandsjames
05-29-2015, 05:50 PM
I wouldn't be outraged or shocked if there was violence.

But, folks in our country do have a right to be idiots, a right to be misinformed and a right to be non-violently antagonistic. At the point that the antagonized become violent it makes them the criminal ... pretty simple.

Right, because an ex-Marine wearing a t-shirt that says "Fuck Islam" isn't inciting violence.

LogDog
05-29-2015, 05:50 PM
I wouldn't be outraged or shocked if there was violence.

But, folks in our country do have a right to be idiots, a right to be misinformed and a right to be non-violently antagonistic. At the point that the antagonized become violent it makes them the criminal ... pretty simple.
Yes, they have the right to be idiots but some people, like these clowns, simply abuse that right.

LogDog
05-29-2015, 05:51 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/29/us/mohammed-cartoon-contest/index.html

Awesome...let's disparage millions of people...let's make those who don't hate us start hating us. OH....and let's all be "outraged" and shocked when this place gets attacked.
And these are the same ones who would start screaming religious persecution if it was about Jesus.

sandsjames
05-29-2015, 05:51 PM
What they're doing is counterproductive to their cause. They're only going to create more sympathy for Muslims. I remember how WJ5 used to complain about atheists slamming Christians more than or instead of Muslims. Well, there's his answer.Yep, that's exactly what they're going to do...it's their right, sure, it's just stupid. Maybe some of these people will take their families to this exhibit and we can an least have a partial hindrance to their gene pools.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-29-2015, 05:57 PM
And these are the same ones who would start screaming religious persecution if it was about Jesus.

I don't think so, the organizer is an evil atheist.


Jon Ritzheimer, a self-described patriot and atheist, is organizing an anti-Muslim "Muhammad Cartoon Contest" outside a mosque in Phoenix, Arizona, on Friday.

"I don't even really want it to be about me, I want it to be just about pushing out the truth about Islam," Ritzheimer told 12 News.

Ritzheimer defended a "F--- Islam" T-shirt that his followers wear, and attributed the bigotry to not being "politically correct."

Ritzheimer, who claims to be a Marine, added, "It's not that some people are out perverting [Islam], it's, these guys are following their book as it's written."

A Facebook page set up by Ritzheimer for the event, entitled "Freedom of Speech Rally Round II," states:

This will be a PEACEFUL protest in front of the Islamic Community Center in Phoenix AZ. This is in response to the recent attack in Texas where 2 armed terrorist, with ties to ISIS, attempted Jihad.

Everyone is encouraged to bring American Flags and any message that you would like to send to the known acquaintances of the 2 gunmen.

This Islamic Community Center is a known place that the 2 terrorist frequented. People are also encouraged to utilize there second amendment right at this event just incase our first amendment comes under the much anticipated attack.

The "2 gunmen" and "2 terrorist" reference appears to be about Elton Simpson and Nadir Soofi who drove to Garland, Texas, on May 3 and opened fire on a "Draw Muhammad" contest staged by anti-Islamic activist/blogger Pamela Geller.

According to the Bridge Initiative at Georgetown University, the cartoon contest will take place in a Denny's parking lot and the drawings will be delivered to the center (mosque) when Muslims are expected to arrive for a prayer service.

Usama Shami, president of the center, told 12 News that he is encouraging members to attend prayer services on Friday:

We're going to tell our members what we've told them before, not to engage them. They're not looking for an intellectual discussion. They're looking to stir up a controversy and we're not going to be a part of it.

Rusty Jones
05-29-2015, 06:10 PM
And these are the same ones who would start screaming religious persecution if it was about Jesus.



I just thought of something. In my neck of the woods, there's a church on every other block. In fact, there intersections where there's a church on all four corners. Mostly Baptists churches. In particular, Southern Baptists and Free Will Baptists.

Now, people think Southern Baptists are bad... but let me tell you about those Free Will Baptist. Although I'm an atheist, most Protestants - at least according to the doctrines of their denomination - believe that I'm going to Heaven. Why? Because, when I was a Christian, I was "saved" and they believe that salvation is permanent and cannot be undone.

Now, personally, I could give two shits.

Free Will Baptists, on the other hand, do not believe this. They believe that salvation is undone when one stops believing. Again, in and of itself, I could give two shits... but... that belief DOES lead to other problems. In particular, the license for preachers to browbeat the fuck out of their congregation, preach fire and brimstone more than any other sect of Baptism, and more importantly... harass the fuck out of people not in their congregation.

All of that being said, we have those street corner preachers. Carrying signs and wearing sandwich boards that say shit like, "Ask me why you deserve to go to Hell."

And they're shouting at people, all this fire and brimstone... and, the other day, I pulled up to a corner where there was a guy like that. Of course, I couldn't help but flick that guy off and shout a bunch of blasphemous obscenities to him... but then I thought about that "Jesus Fucking Christ" meme I posted that the mods took down. I think I want to print out two nice big pictures of that meme, and put them on both sides of a posterboard. That way I've got a big sign to hold up the next time I see one of those street preachers. They're already pissed off as it is. I don't think it will take much of a nudge to send them over the edge.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-29-2015, 06:36 PM
I just thought of something. In my neck of the woods, there's a church on every other block. In fact, there intersections where there's a church on all four corners. Mostly Baptists churches. In particular, Southern Baptists and Free Will Baptists.

Now, people think Southern Baptists are bad... but let me tell you about those Free Will Baptist. Although I'm an atheist, most Protestants - at least according to the doctrines of their denomination - believe that I'm going to Heaven. Why? Because, when I was a Christian, I was "saved" and they believe that salvation is permanent and cannot be undone.

Now, personally, I could give two shits.

Free Will Baptists, on the other hand, do not believe this. They believe that salvation is undone when one stops believing. Again, in and of itself, I could give two shits... but... that belief DOES lead to other problems. In particular, the license for preachers to browbeat the fuck out of their congregation, preach fire and brimstone more than any other sect of Baptism, and more importantly... harass the fuck out of people not in their congregation.

All of that being said, we have those street corner preachers. Carrying signs and wearing sandwich boards that say shit like, "Ask me why you deserve to go to Hell."

And they're shouting at people, all this fire and brimstone... and, the other day, I pulled up to a corner where there was a guy like that. Of course, I couldn't help but flick that guy off and shout a bunch of blasphemous obscenities to him... but then I thought about that "Jesus Fucking Christ" meme I posted that the mods took down. I think I want to print out two nice big pictures of that meme, and put them on both sides of a posterboard. That way I've got a big sign to hold up the next time I see one of those street preachers. They're already pissed off as it is. I don't think it will take much of a nudge to send them over the edge.

That's a good idea, just don't start bad mouthing the Great Pumpkin.

I'm thinking about converting to Great Pumpkin worship.

Yes, I know the Great Pumpkin isn't real, but if I believe with the blind faith of a child, he will become real.

I'm talking super super super faith! You have to just believe really really hard and the Great Pumpkin will be real.

The only draw back of becoming a Great Pumpkin worshiper that I can see is that I'll have to declare war on places that sell pumpkin seeds as snacks.

That is roasting the unborn and it is an abomination in the hollow eyes of the Great Pumpkin.

Oddly enough, carving pumpkins to make jack-o-lanterns is seen as a form of tribute to the Great Pumpkin, but roasting pumpkin seeds is a big no-no.

garhkal
05-29-2015, 09:22 PM
Yes, they have the right to be idiots but some people, like these clowns, simply abuse that right.

Who get's to define when using a right becomes abuse of that right?

Personally if i lived down in Texas, i would be more than willing to go to this rally.

MikeKerriii
05-29-2015, 09:31 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/29/us/mohammed-cartoon-contest/index.html

Awesome...let's disparage millions of people...let's make those who don't hate us start hating us. OH....and let's all be "outraged" and shocked when this place gets attacked.

i will outraged or shocked. but the attackers will still be the ones solely responsible.

MikeKerriii
05-29-2015, 09:34 PM
Right, because an ex-Marine wearing a t-shirt that says "Fuck Islam" isn't inciting violence.

He s not, he is making a leagal political and religious statement, his right to do so protected under the Constitution. He has a legal right to be an idiot

sandsjames
05-29-2015, 09:48 PM
He s not, he is making a leagal political and religious statement, his right to do so protected under the Constitution. He has a legal right to be an idiot

How would you feel about this guy having a rally saying "Fuck N****rs"?

MikeKerriii
05-31-2015, 05:07 AM
i will outraged or shocked. but the attackers will still be the ones solely responsible.

I would feel the same way, He is a idiot but he has a right to be an idiot. If that wasn't a right the Republican party would be banned

MikeKerriii
05-31-2015, 05:10 AM
How would you feel about this guy having a rally saying "Fuck N****rs"?

The same way, he has a right to be a damned fool. As long as no law is being broken.

sandsjames
05-31-2015, 11:08 AM
The same way, he has a right to be a damned fool. As long as no law is being broken. Never said it wasn't their right...just that people like this are idiots.

Rusty Jones
05-31-2015, 12:55 PM
As an update, the man who organized this has gone into hiding as he's been receiving death threats. He's now bitching about "tyranny" in America.

MikeKerriii
05-31-2015, 05:31 PM
As an update, the man who organized this has gone into hiding as he's been receiving death threats. He's now bitching about "tyranny" in America.

ROTFLAMO, some big tough Marine, afraid of twitter. If you won't stand for what you say don't ****** say it

TJMAC77SP
05-31-2015, 09:26 PM
I suppose we would be ok if he didn't go into hiding and got killed ?

That is what a Marine does? Allowing yourself to be killed to further make your point that Islam (as practiced by some) is a violent religion is the correct course of action?

I think this rally is ill-conceived and obviously designed to incite anger and more but I can't agree with positions that make value judgments about Jon Ritzheimer because he chooses to go into hiding after receiving death threats.

Rusty Jones
05-31-2015, 09:34 PM
I suppose we would be ok if he didn't go into hiding and got killed ?

That is what a Marine does? Allowing yourself to be killed to further make your point that Islam (as practiced by some) is a violent religion is the correct course of action?

I think this rally is ill-conceived and obviously designed to incite anger and more but I can't agree with positions that make value judgments about Jon Ritzheimer because he chooses to go into hiding after receiving death threats.

The value judgements aren't because he's going into hiding. The value judgements are because either he didn't know, or he's pretending to not have known, that what he didn't wouldn't lead to this type of retaliation.

TJMAC77SP
05-31-2015, 10:53 PM
The value judgements aren't because he's going into hiding. The value judgements are because either he didn't know, or he's pretending to not have known, that what he didn't wouldn't lead to this type of retaliation.

Not really.


ROTFLAMO, some big tough Marine, afraid of twitter. If you won't stand for what you say don't ****** say it

I am not sure how you are reaching the conclusion that he didn't know or is pretending not to have known the consequences. I suppose when he first announced the rally he could have said ".........I am doing this even though I know I will get death threats and be forced into hiding...."


But that really isn't a realistic scenario.

Mjölnir
05-31-2015, 11:27 PM
As an update, the man who organized this has gone into hiding as he's been receiving death threats. He's now bitching about "tyranny" in America.

I saw him on the news earlier. He was stating that there had been threats against him, and his family.

Now, he could have / should have anticipated that. He should have taken that into account before organizing his 'protest.' He is falling into the "right to be an idiot / misinformed" category. He can certainly exercise his free speech, if someone killed him they would be a criminal & he would be dead ... I hope it doesn't happen, nor that his family would be harmed ... but this should have been part of his decision making matrix long before he got to the execution phase of his plan.

I kind of equate the situation to someone poking / antagonizing a dog. Whether the dog is a pit bull or a labrador ... at some point, however mild mannered the dog is, it is likely to growl, then maybe bark ... and eventually bite. Now ... do we blame the dog for doing what it does -- no ... but it is a dog; people are not dogs and they have the choice to break the law or not. Most Muslims will not resort to violence -- extremists likely will ... you could say the same about Christians. We have the right to be antagonistic, but unfortunately at some point even when someone is being an ass and 'asking' for something to happen to them (whether a punch to the face or such) when the antagonized get violent they are the criminal.

Stepping back, I looked around a little bit and outside of the rally in TX with the two shootings and this 'protest' in AZ, it seems their theme is just "free speech to bash (Islam) ... which they can do ... but I don't much get the point. The woman who organized the TX event (Pamela Gellar) is an antagonizer, but has the benefit of a lot of monetary supporters and she has paid security ... this guy in AZ doesn't ... yet. I am sure there will be a bunch of folks raising money for him -- maybe that is his long term intent**.

**This was the tactic used by the Westboro Baptist Church in the mid 90's that garnered them a lot of cash in lawsuit settlements.

-Go somewhere and antagonize people
-Get assaulted or get ushered off by the police
-Sue people / organizations in civil court for assault or sue the police department for infringing on their 1st amendment rights.
-Win and collect cash.

One thing I read a couple years ago estimated they got about $500,000 over a few years of doing this.

Rusty Jones
06-01-2015, 12:01 AM
Look at it this way: what if a group of Muslims decided to grab a bunch of guns and protest outside of a church in that same city during Sunday service? Then what? If a Muslim decided to announce this days in advance, I would offer a bet right here on MTF... maybe a small $100 or $200 bet... that they would be met with armed Christian counter protesters, and that there would be some bloodshed.

I'm pretty sure he knows how he'd react to armed Muslims protesting outside of his church. Why should he expect them to behave differently by doing the same outside of a mosque?

These guns rights and open carry laws and "people being offended is not my problem" mindsets aside... guns are weapons, and deadly ones at that. People are afraid when they see this, and rightfully so. You don't do some shit like this, and expect people to sit there and take it.

What he's dealing with are consequences that he was fully aware of, or should have been.

Mjölnir
06-01-2015, 12:21 AM
Look at it this way: what if a group of Muslims decided to grab a bunch of guns and protest outside of a church in that same city during Sunday service? Then what? If a Muslim decided to announce this days in advance, I would offer a bet right here on MTF... maybe a small $100 or $200 bet... that they would be met with armed Christian counter protesters, and that there would be some bloodshed.

I wouldn't 'expect' there to be violence*, but I could see it as a contingency and in that scenario I would recommend people plan accordingly.

*I don't 'expect' people to break the law, but ... I know it happens.


I'm pretty sure he knows how he'd react to armed Muslims protesting outside of his church. Why should he expect them to behave differently by doing the same outside of a mosque?

No argument


These guns rights and open carry laws and "people being offended is not my problem" mindsets aside... guns are weapons, and deadly ones at that. People are afraid when they see this, and rightfully so. You don't do some shit like this, and expect people to sit there and take it.

What he's dealing with are consequences that he was fully aware of, or should have been.

Agreed on he should have been (maybe he was and this is theater) ready to deal with those consequences.

At the same time, the mentality that "I have been provoked and have to respond in kind or more forcefully" is a stupid mindset as well. 'One-upsmanship' accomplishes nothing, yeah ... people can say "See that, I didn't take his shit." ... but it likely gets you on the wrong side of the law as well ... even if the other person was 'asking for it.'

Rusty Jones
06-01-2015, 01:57 AM
I wouldn't 'expect' there to be violence*, but I could see it as a contingency and in that scenario I would recommend people plan accordingly.

*I don't 'expect' people to break the law, but ... I know it happens.



No argument



Agreed on he should have been (maybe he was and this is theater) ready to deal with those consequences.

At the same time, the mentality that "I have been provoked and have to respond in kind or more forcefully" is a stupid mindset as well. 'One-upsmanship' accomplishes nothing, yeah ... people can say "See that, I didn't take his shit." ... but it likely gets you on the wrong side of the law as well ... even if the other person was 'asking for it.'

Well, if I walk into a bar with a few motorcycles parked outside and I see one of the bikers talking to his girlfriend... I could always sit in the empty stool next to the girlfriend and try to pick her up right in front him. I'm not breaking the law by doing that. However, before I decide to do that... maybe I need to consider the probability that the "law" is going to be the least of my worries.

I'm not trying to justify any death threats being made. However... that's how the man should have thought before organizing the armed protest.

Mjölnir
06-01-2015, 02:05 AM
Well, if I walk into a bar with a few motorcycles parked outside and I see one of the bikers talking to his girlfriend... I could always sit in the empty stool next to the girlfriend and try to pick her up right in front him. I'm not breaking the law by doing that. However, before I decide to do that... maybe I need to consider the probability that the "law" is going to be the least of my worries.

I'm not trying to justify any death threats being made. However... that's how the man should have thought before organizing the armed protest.

The amazing thing about people who go out looking for a confrontation is that they usually find one.

garhkal
06-01-2015, 08:02 PM
I saw him on the news earlier. He was stating that there had been threats against him, and his family.

Now, he could have / should have anticipated that. He should have taken that into account before organizing his 'protest.' He is falling into the "right to be an idiot / misinformed" category. He can certainly exercise his free speech, if someone killed him they would be a criminal & he would be dead ... I hope it doesn't happen, nor that his family would be harmed ... but this should have been part of his decision making matrix long before he got to the execution phase of his plan.


So one should only organize a protest and stand up for one's freedom of speech, just as long as no one will threaten them? Sounds like that is what you are getting at.

Max Power
06-01-2015, 08:15 PM
So one should only organize a protest and stand up for one's freedom of speech, just as long as no one will threaten them? Sounds like that is what you are getting at.

http://memecrunch.com/meme/2SACD/village-idiot/image.jpg?w=586&c=1

Mjölnir
06-01-2015, 10:26 PM
So one should only organize a protest and stand up for one's freedom of speech, just as long as no one will threaten them? Sounds like that is what you are getting at.

Not at all, but he should have been able to foresee that this would have potential consequences for him.

If it were me, what is the risk vs. the gain and is it worth it to me (and potentially my family.) I don't believe in only fighting a fight I can win, some fights are worth fighting ... but I have responsibilities for more than just myself as well.

Bos Mutus
06-01-2015, 11:11 PM
I saw him on the news earlier. He was stating that there had been threats against him, and his family.

Now, he could have / should have anticipated that. He should have taken that into account before organizing his 'protest.' He is falling into the "right to be an idiot / misinformed" category. He can certainly exercise his free speech, if someone killed him they would be a criminal & he would be dead ... I hope it doesn't happen, nor that his family would be harmed ... but this should have been part of his decision making matrix long before he got to the execution phase of his plan.

I would think he probably expects some violence...or attempts at violence.

Now...I'm not saying this guy is a modern day Martin Luther King Jr. or nothing...but, I think there is a cause there. MLKJ got threats...threats on his family...he pretty much knew he was going to meet a violent end at some point...but, he felt the cause was worth it.


I kind of equate the situation to someone poking / antagonizing a dog. Whether the dog is a pit bull or a labrador ... at some point, however mild mannered the dog is, it is likely to growl, then maybe bark ... and eventually bite. Now ... do we blame the dog for doing what it does -- no ... but it is a dog; people are not dogs and they have the choice to break the law or not. Most Muslims will not resort to violence -- extremists likely will ... you could say the same about Christians. We have the right to be antagonistic, but unfortunately at some point even when someone is being an ass and 'asking' for something to happen to them (whether a punch to the face or such) when the antagonized get violent they are the criminal.

Stepping back, I looked around a little bit and outside of the rally in TX with the two shootings and this 'protest' in AZ, it seems their theme is just "free speech to bash (Islam) ... which they can do ... but I don't much get the point.[/quote]

The "point" is that these Muslim extremists want everyone to respect their religion...through violence if necessary.

The "point" is that...we don't play that way. We'll not cower to threats of violence over drawing critical cartoons.


The woman who organized the TX event (Pamela Gellar) is an antagonizer, but has the benefit of a lot of monetary supporters and she has paid security ... this guy in AZ doesn't ... yet. I am sure there will be a bunch of folks raising money for him -- maybe that is his long term intent**.

**This was the tactic used by the Westboro Baptist Church in the mid 90's that garnered them a lot of cash in lawsuit settlements.

-Go somewhere and antagonize people
-Get assaulted or get ushered off by the police
-Sue people / organizations in civil court for assault or sue the police department for infringing on their 1st amendment rights.
-Win and collect cash.

One thing I read a couple years ago estimated they got about $500,000 over a few years of doing this.

As I understand it...the WBC did have this whole thing as a money-making scheme to support themselves and their family. It was never about anything else.

There are probably few things I would agree with the Gellar lady about...in fact, I'm sure on most things I'd consider her a nutcase...but, in her cause of not cowering to Muslim threats of violence over cartoon drawing, she is in the right.

Whether it is important enough to risk personal threat of violence, is her call...and this other guy. Yes, it's provocative...

Mjölnir
06-01-2015, 11:22 PM
The "point" is that these Muslim extremists want everyone to respect their religion...through violence if necessary.

The "point" is that...we don't play that way. We'll not cower to threats of violence over drawing critical cartoons.


I concur, but what I think the protests are not doing is telling us anything new ... and while what they are espousing (that we won't back down is being lost in a lot of what looks to the rational thinker as yelling and screaming.


As I understand it...the WBC did have this whole thing as a money-making scheme to support themselves and their family. It was never about anything else.

At least the core of them ... I am sure there are some (the WBC) also is financially supported by members of the 'church' who are not part of the founding family.


There are probably few things I would agree with the Gellar lady about...in fact, I'm sure on most things I'd consider her a nutcase...but, in her cause of not cowering to Muslim threats of violence over cartoon drawing, she is in the right.

Whether it is important enough to risk personal threat of violence, is her call...and this other guy. Yes, it's provocative...

I agree that Mrs. Gellar is 'right', but she also seems to have very narrowly targeted her 'not cowering' stance onto one group (based on some past history. She has enough supporters that she has private security and she is a bit more polished than the former Marine in AZ.

Rusty Jones
06-02-2015, 03:16 PM
As I understand it...the WBC did have this whole thing as a money-making scheme to support themselves and their family. It was never about anything else.

Well, it looks like there was short-lived attempt for Ritzheimer to do the same... for $10 million: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/06/02/gofundme-reportedly-pulls-10-million-fundraiser-for-ex-marine-who-organized-draw-muhammad-mosque-protest/

MikeKerriii
06-02-2015, 08:20 PM
I suppose we would be ok if he didn't go into hiding and got killed ?

That is what a Marine does? Allowing yourself to be killed to further make your point that Islam (as practiced by some) is a violent religion is the correct course of action?

I think this rally is ill-conceived and obviously designed to incite anger and more but I can't agree with positions that make value judgments about Jon Ritzheimer because he chooses to go into hiding after receiving death threats.

No selling hate and then running away when it is noticed is a simple act of cowardice. that is not what I expect from a Marine either action in fact is adiscgrace

MikeKerriii
06-02-2015, 08:23 PM
So one should only organize a protest and stand up for one's freedom of speech, just as long as no one will threaten them? Sounds like that is what you are getting at.
If you don't ant a confronation you don't bring guns to intimidate. This thug was making threats of his own

TJMAC77SP
06-02-2015, 10:16 PM
No selling hate and then running away when it is noticed is a simple act of cowardice. that is not what I expect from a Marine either action in fact is adiscgrace

Ok, noted.

Not really, that is a load of hogwash and you know it.

The guy many indeed be a total tool (his actions are certainly indicative of one) but the cowardice charge is nothing but hyperbole.

Rainmaker
06-03-2015, 07:01 PM
http://www.bradenton.com/2015/06/02/5828582/fry-guys-operated-by-anti-islam.html

Meanwhile in other news.... Snake Handling/ Koran burning pastor turned fry stand owner has moved on...