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garhkal
04-28-2015, 06:49 AM
So what is everyone's thoughts on the riots, arson, looting etc going on in Baltimore cause of that black guy who died in police custody?

Why is it we only see stuff like this from ONE paticular Ethnicity? I have never seen these sorts of riots after cops kill an Asian, Latino, White or other person.
Also how is it, it always seems to go from 'peaceful protests' to riots, in such a short period of time.

sandsjames
04-28-2015, 10:47 AM
So what is everyone's thoughts on the riots, arson, looting etc going on in Baltimore cause of that black guy who died in police custody?

Why is it we only see stuff like this from ONE paticular Ethnicity? I have never seen these sorts of riots after cops kill an Asian, Latino, White or other person.
Also how is it, it always seems to go from 'peaceful protests' to riots, in such a short period of time.

You haven't been watching. Cops never kill, injure, or mistreat other ethnicities. Only blacks.

As far as this particular riot, it's to be expected. I don't agree with it but it's expected. This will happen every time a cop is involved with a black guy.

The blame is on the media, IMO. As long as every news report mentions the race of the parties involved then it will continue to get worse.

Rusty Jones
04-28-2015, 12:00 PM
Let's be honest here: you don't see it from Asians because Asians hold an honorary white status in this country.

You don't see it from whites for two reasons:

1. White Americans are probably the most indivualist ethnic group in the US. For example, two Mexican kids can bully a white kid on the school bus and none of the other white kids will do anything about it; even if they outnumber the Mexican kids on the school bus. But let two white kids bully one Mexican kid; and the other Mexican kids will get involved. White people don't have the "we've gotta stick together" mindset. At least not until they get to prison, then that changes.

2. White people, in particular, middle class and poor white people... to be quite frank, don't know a dick in their asses when they're taking one. Look at all these whites out there who work some $10/hr job, a struggling to make ends meet, and they still vote Republican.

Why?

As Lyndon B. Johnson once said,"If you can convice the lowest white man that he's better than they best black man, he won't notice you're picking his pockets. Hell, give him someone to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."

There are even whites on public assistance - right here in my area - who vote Republican, knowing full well that those that they vote for will yank their benefits. Why? It's all about how they feel towards blacks - they're cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

Look at WJ5 in his last days here. He was a cop supporter, but fully acknowledged what has been done to whites in custody by the police too.

Poor and middle class white people don't realize this but... the fight that black people are fighting? It's THEIR fight too. But they'd rather side with the powers that be.

As far as Latinos go... they're not exactly a unified group. They're broken down into many nationalities, and even within the nationalities... there are still even more divisions. For example, Mexican-Americans and Mexican immigrants don't see themselves as the same ethnicity. You can go down even further than that, and see that economic lines determine social boundries among Latinos where it doesn't among blacks. For example, do you think that a Mexican American man who is part of middle management somewhere in corporate America gives a damn about a cholo being harassed by the cops in LA? He might, but he's not as likely to as a black man in a similar position seeing a poor black man being harassed by the police.

I can also say, at least in my observation, in areas with high Latino population, there's a good representation of Latinos in law enforcement and other areas of power... AND these Latinos in these positions aren't abusing their fellow Latinos to curry favor with the powers that be (unlike blacks in these positions). That helps a BIG deal.

Remove these factors, and they could be just as likely to riot.

Rusty Jones
04-28-2015, 12:41 PM
Oh, and garhkal... I thought you might be interested in this link: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/11/white-people-rioting-for-no-reason.html

sandsjames
04-28-2015, 12:44 PM
Let's be honest here: you don't see it from Asians because Asians hold an honorary white status in this country.

You don't see it from whites for two reasons:

1. White Americans are probably the most indivualist ethnic group in the US. For example, two Mexican kids can bully a white kid on the school bus and none of the other white kids will do anything about it; even if they outnumber the Mexican kids on the school bus. But let two white kids bully one Mexican kid; and the other Mexican kids will get involved. White people don't have the "we've gotta stick together" mindset. At least not until they get to prison, then that changes.

2. White people, in particular, middle class and poor white people... to be quite frank, don't know a dick in their asses when they're taking one. Look at all these whites out there who work some $10/hr job, a struggling to make ends meet, and they still vote Republican.

Why?

As Lyndon B. Johnson once said,"If you can convice the lowest white man that he's better than they best black man, he won't notice you're picking his pockets. Hell, give him someone to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."

There are even whites on public assistance - right here in my area - who vote Republican, knowing full well that those that they vote for will yank their benefits. Why? It's all about how they feel towards blacks - they're cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

Look at WJ5 in his last days here. He was a cop supporter, but fully acknowledged what has been done to whites in custody by the police too.

Poor and middle class white people don't realize this but... the fight that black people are fighting? It's THEIR fight too. But they'd rather side with the powers that be.

As far as Latinos go... they're not exactly a unified group. They're broken down into many nationalities, and even within the nationalities... there are still even more divisions. For example, Mexican-Americans and Mexican immigrants don't see themselves as the same ethnicity. You can go down even further than that, and see that economic lines determine social boundries among Latinos where it doesn't among blacks. For example, do you think that a Mexican American man who is part of middle management somewhere in corporate America gives a damn about a cholo being harassed by the cops in LA? He might, but he's not as likely to as a black man in a similar position seeing a poor black man being harassed by the police.

I can also say, at least in my observation, in areas with high Latino population, there's a good representation of Latinos in law enforcement and other areas of power... AND these Latinos in these positions aren't abusing their fellow Latinos to curry favor with the powers that be (unlike blacks in these positions). That helps a BIG deal.

Remove these factors, and they could be just as likely to riot.

Since we're talking about how ignorant whites are to hurting their own cause, let's talk about blacks are exactly the same.

There is a problem between cops and blacks. Cops are more aggressive with blacks because of the stereotypes. So how do blacks respond? By becoming the stereotype, looting, rioting, ruining their own neighborhoods. This leads to the cops becoming more aggressive, which leads to more rioting, just getting worse and worse.

The only thing that will work to curb this cycle or racial tension is for the black leaders inside the communities to tell the ones who are doing the rioting, looting, etc, to knock that shit off.

Peaceful protests are what is needed. They are the only thing that will work.

And the fact that you think black cops play along to curry favor with TPTB is laughable. They react the way they are trained to react in certain situations. But, of course, that explanation doesn't fit the agenda so it's easier to say that the black cop is still "The Man's" "boy".

Rusty Jones
04-28-2015, 12:56 PM
Since we're talking about how ignorant whites are to hurting their own cause, let's talk about blacks are exactly the same.

There is a problem between cops and blacks. Cops are more aggressive with blacks because of the stereotypes. So how do blacks respond? By becoming the stereotype, looting, rioting, ruining their own neighborhoods. This leads to the cops becoming more aggressive, which leads to more rioting, just getting worse and worse.

The only thing that will work to curb this cycle or racial tension is for the black leaders inside the communities to tell the ones who are doing the rioting, looting, etc, to knock that shit off.

Peaceful protests are what is needed. They are the only thing that will work.

Are you serious? Protests have been peaceful for far too long, and yet unarmed blacks - some, even while they're in handcuffs or other restraints - are STILL being killed by police. When begging and pleading for something that's rightfully yours doesn't work (in this case, basic human rights), you're left with no choice but to force it out of them.


And the fact that you think black cops play along to curry favor with TPTB is laughable. They react the way they are trained to react in certain situations. But, of course, that explanation doesn't fit the agenda so it's easier to say that the black cop is still "The Man's" "boy".

Apparently, this is something that conservative white eyes can't see. Think about this for a second... look at all of these conservative black politicians. Alan Keyes, Allen West, Herman Cain, Ben Carson, Clarence Thomas... you ever notice how they're THE most extreme far to the right conservatives you can find? There's reason for that: they have to go out of their way to prove themselves. They can't afford to take a liberal stance on anything, lest they blow their cover and expose themselves as being no different than from "the rest of them." Do you think black cops aren't under the exact same pressure?

Stalwart
04-28-2015, 01:05 PM
There is a problem between cops and blacks. Cops are more aggressive with blacks because of the stereotypes. So how do blacks respond? By becoming the stereotype, looting, rioting, ruining their own neighborhoods. This leads to the cops becoming more aggressive, which leads to more rioting, just getting worse and worse.

You are right ... it creates a cycle / self fulfilling prophecy of mistrust & violence.

BT BT

The protests about the death of Mr. Gray were legitimate, logical and within the law. At the point that some (a minority) of the protestors began to destroy public property & private property, those individuals became criminals -- no other way to describe it. Their actions are distracting efforts & resources from the problem of police relationships with minorities. The people have a constitutional right to assemble, not a right to destroy.

I have a friend whose family business is in Baltimore and was burned to the ground on Sunday, he has no idea what he going to do now. There was a community center that a church had spent 8 years planning, raising funds for, buying a building, renovating the building to bring it up to code and outfitting it to serve the community; it was set to open in October -- it was burned to the ground. What is common with my friend or the community center is that their 'crime against the people' was being located in the path of the criminals; they had nothing to do with what happened to Mr. Gray or the history of police actions in Baltimore.

I heard last night someone justifying the riots by saying that MLK said "Riot is the language of the unheard." I find that misleading since the whole quote is "Riot is the language of the unheard but people turning to violence are a minority and hurt our cause, that non-violence is the most potent weapon available for freedom and justice, to turn to violence is both impractical and immoral.”

sandsjames
04-28-2015, 01:05 PM
Are you serious? Protests have been peaceful for far too long, and yet unarmed blacks - some, even while they're in handcuffs or other restraints - are STILL being killed by police. When begging and pleading for something that's rightfully yours doesn't work (in this case, basic human rights), you're left with no choice but to force it out of them.



Apparently, this is something that conservative white eyes can't see. Think about this for a second... look at all of these conservative black politicians. Alan Keyes, Allen West, Herman Cain, Ben Carson, Clarence Thomas... you ever notice how they're THE most extreme far to the right conservatives you can find? There's reason for that: they have to go out of their way to prove themselves. They can't afford to take a liberal stance on anything, lest they blow their cover and expose themselves as being no different than from "the rest of them." Do you think black cops aren't under the exact same pressure?

I don't buy into the fact that a black person can't be truly conservative. I also think it's unfair for that comment to be made by other blacks. Though I'm just a white guy so what do I know?

Stalwart
04-28-2015, 01:10 PM
Are you serious? Protests have been peaceful for far too long, and yet unarmed blacks - some, even while they're in handcuffs or other restraints - are STILL being killed by police. When begging and pleading for something that's rightfully yours doesn't work (in this case, basic human rights), you're left with no choice but to force it out of them.

I don't think you would feel that way if it was your business or your home destroyed simply because you live in that community. What about the basic human rights of the people in the community that are being violated by the criminals; is it okay since it is for a 'greater good?'

Sometimes people are mishandled by police, the police should be held fully accountable for that.

Sometimes people decide to act like an ass with the police and they are detained forcefully, and when that happens there is a chance that something goes wrong and they are injured or killed. It shouldn't happen, but it does.

The problem is that people overreact because of their frustration in a situation that doesn't warrant it (Furguson, MO for example) and distract the efforts of people who are trying to do things right (SC).

Rusty Jones
04-28-2015, 01:12 PM
I don't buy into the fact that a black person can't be truly conservative. I also think it's unfair for that comment to be made by other blacks. Though I'm just a white guy so what do I know?

Yeah, then tell me... where are all the MODERATE black conservatives? The only one I can think of is Colin Powell, and he was made an example of whenever he didn't toe the party line. If black conservatives didn't know better before Powell, they know now. Hence why they're all extremists.

Stalwart
04-28-2015, 01:16 PM
double post

Rusty Jones
04-28-2015, 01:32 PM
I don't think you would feel that way if it was your business or your home destroyed simply because you live in that community. What about the basic human rights of the people in the community that are being violated by the criminals; is it okay since it is for a 'greater good?'

I don't agree with destroying businesses and homes, so let's get that out of the way. However, time and again... we've seen over recent years that police aren't being held accountable. Shoot an unarmed black man, and they walk. If they're not being held accountable then, unfortunately, the people have no choice but to force someone's hand and make them do it... or to take on that task themselves.

Don't destroy things, but protect your community from the police... even if that means fighting them.


Sometimes people are mishandled by police, the police should be held fully accountable for that.

But they're not. That doesn't leave people very many options.


Sometimes people decide to act like an ass with the police and they are detained forcefully, and when that happens there is a chance that something goes wrong and they are injured or killed. It shouldn't happen, but it does.

I don't know of one situation where a video proved this to be the case, and the people still rioted anyway.


The problem is that people overreact because of their frustration in a situation that doesn't warrant it (Furguson, MO for example) and distract the efforts of people who are trying to do things right (SC).

They're doing things the "right way" in South Carolina, because they haven't yet made the decision on whether or not Slager is going to walk.

Stalwart
04-28-2015, 01:44 PM
I don't agree with destroying businesses and homes, so let's get that out of the way. However, time and again... we've seen over recent years that police aren't being held accountable. Shoot an unarmed black man, and they walk. If they're not being held accountable then, unfortunately, the people have no choice but to force someone's hand and make them do it... or to take on that task themselves.

Don't destroy things, but protect your community from the police... even if that means fighting them.


So then, in the process of fighting the police, what is okay for them to destroy? You can force someone's hand without violence.



But they're not. That doesn't leave people very many options.

In some cases you are right, in some cases they are held accountable without the citizens going bat-shit crazy.




I don't know of one situation where a video proved this to be the case, and the people still rioted anyway.

Well, there was no video in Ferguson, but the forensic evidence showed that Michael Brown was very likely attacking Officer Wilson (shot from the front not behind, he was likely crouched, blood spatter that move TOWARD the officer vice away etc.), but many in the town turned to violence before the report came out. The local prosecutor nor the DoJ could criminally fault Wilson's actions ... And the people still rioted.

The Cedar Grove race riot in Shreveport LA in 1988 was a case of the locals going crazy before the facts were out there. Of course they were pissed at the police, but didn't attack the police station or a police car, they burned down a school, about a dozen houses and a church.

If your argument is going to be that only video would sway your opinion and a collection of other evidence won't, everything else is indicative of guilt then you are likely going into a situation with a predetermined outcome and you limiting yourself to data that only supports what you have already determined ... Intentionally or not.


They're doing things the "right way" in South Carolina, because they haven't yet made the decision on whether or not Slager is going to walk.

Yeah, they are waiting for the process to run it's course. The decision was made in MO (supported by forensics) and the people rioted because it wasn't the decision they wanted. The decision was made in the case in NY (the autopsy attributed the death to complications of asthma and gross obesity ... And even said that the man was not choked -- no damage to the trachea or bones in the neck, the restraining hold was applied over the chin, where the bruising was noted) ... And the people rioted.

BT BT

I am in no way advocating for police to be violent with criminals (minor ones or violent ones); I don't know how familiar you are with apprehending or detaining people. I know and can attest that in the process of trying to take a non-compliant individual into custody ... sometimes 'shit happens' (people fall the wrong way, people slip, heads bounce off things. Undoubtedly bad individuals in the system have used the system's bias to protect an officer of the law while in the conduct of their duties to their advantage. At the same time, instigators in many communities will use any police interaction with a minority to stir up shit in the community -- even if the police acted properly. Advocating for societal change is necessary ... no doubt ... but burning down your community, looting, stealing brings about social change how again?

TJMAC77SP
04-28-2015, 02:11 PM
Are you serious? Protests have been peaceful for far too long, and yet unarmed blacks - some, even while they're in handcuffs or other restraints - are STILL being killed by police. When begging and pleading for something that's rightfully yours doesn't work (in this case, basic human rights), you're left with no choice but to force it out of them.



Apparently, this is something that conservative white eyes can't see. Think about this for a second... look at all of these conservative black politicians. Alan Keyes, Allen West, Herman Cain, Ben Carson, Clarence Thomas... you ever notice how they're THE most extreme far to the right conservatives you can find? There's reason for that: they have to go out of their way to prove themselves. They can't afford to take a liberal stance on anything, lest they blow their cover and expose themselves as being no different than from "the rest of them." Do you think black cops aren't under the exact same pressure?

Exactly what peaceful protests are you referring to (with regard to this topic)?

TJMAC77SP
04-28-2015, 02:15 PM
They're doing things the "right way" in South Carolina, because they haven't yet made the decision on whether or not Slager is going to walk.

So even when the judicial system works you aren't happy?

Your ill informed racism is so evident here as to be laughable.

Rusty Jones
04-28-2015, 03:45 PM
So even when the judicial system works you aren't happy?

Your ill informed racism is so evident here as to be laughable.

You're the one backing up cops when they shoot black people, so you're the racist.

sandsjames
04-28-2015, 04:03 PM
I'm just glad to know that no white people ever get shot by cops.

I tried to look up some stats but was unable to find anything remotely accurate because it just doesn't get reported. It's not newsworthy because it won't cause any controversy because we (white people) realize that sometimes other white people do stupid shit and the cops are forced to take extreme measures.

Don't get me wrong. There have been a couple recent cases where I don't feel the cops were justified in their decisions. However, that doesn't mean it's systematic of something larger.

The 2 things that people shot by police do seem to have in common are 1)They have prior criminal records and 2) they are lower income. Doesn't seem to make a difference what color they are (except for the reporting in the media).

sandsjames
04-28-2015, 04:12 PM
http://www.kcci.com/news/scott-pippens-daughter-charged-for-urinating-in-hotel-lobby/32597382

Scotty Pippin's daughter...underage, drunk, urinating in hotel lobby. Apparently the cops wanted to do a sobriety test because they are racist.

This is the issue plaguing us today. Sometimes people do stupid shit. I'm sure plenty of white people were also arrested for public intoxication and given sobriety tests the same day. But her first response is to blame it on race instead of taking responsibility.

TJMAC77SP
04-28-2015, 04:20 PM
You're the one backing up cops when they shoot black people, so you're the racist.

I back cops when they are justified in using deadly force and don't when they aren't. Just out of curiosity what instance of "backing up cops when they shoot black people" are you referring to?

Also, and of note in supporting my original statement, my support or condemnation of a cop's shooting is not race specific. Your support or condemnation seems to center on that.

BTW, what peaceful protests were you referring to in your earlier post? Perhaps you missed the question.

waveshaper2
04-28-2015, 05:33 PM
This is really simple stuff for most civilized folks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xl7Q36V9pg4

garhkal
04-28-2015, 09:59 PM
You haven't been watching. Cops never kill, injure, or mistreat other ethnicities. Only blacks.


Well if you only believe what the liberal media says.. Then yes it seems cops never abuse whites or any other group.


As far as this particular riot, it's to be expected. I don't agree with it but it's expected. This will happen every time a cop is involved with a black guy..

So lawlessness should be expected? Is that not condoning it?


Oh, and garhkal... I thought you might be interested in this link: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/11/white-people-rioting-for-no-reason.html

I have always found it screwy that whites go out and riot over such (IMO) trivial things as sports team losses/wins...


Are you serious? Protests have been peaceful for far too long, and yet unarmed blacks - some, even while they're in handcuffs or other restraints - are STILL being killed by police. When begging and pleading for something that's rightfully yours doesn't work (in this case, basic human rights), you're left with no choice but to force it out of them.


What protests have you been watching that those in cuffs have still been beaten?


I don't agree with destroying businesses and homes, so let's get that out of the way. However, time and again... we've seen over recent years that police aren't being held accountable. Shoot an unarmed black man, and they walk. If they're not being held accountable then, unfortunately, the people have no choice but to force someone's hand and make them do it... or to take on that task themselves.

Are you friggen serious? Just cause a wrong is done by the justice dept/cops, does NOT mean its ok for the blacks to then go out and break the law..


But they're not. That doesn't leave people very many options.

How's about get off your lazy ass and vote for someone who WILL change things? Run for office yourself? Go to college and get a law degree and join the justice dept?

Crud. I just noticed i screwed up and gave you a like and thanks when i should have given you a dislike!

sandsjames
04-28-2015, 10:17 PM
So lawlessness should be expected? Is that not condoning it?





By "expected" I mean that we know it's going to happen because of prior instances.

If a drunk chick goes to a party at a frat house around a bunch of drunk guys I expect that there's going to be a sexual assault, or an accusation of a sexual assault. I don't condone it, but I know it's going to happen. You place particular people in a particular situation and the outcome is predictable.

Rusty Jones
04-28-2015, 11:38 PM
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/nonviolence-as-compliance/391640/

When nonviolence is preached as an attempt to evade the repercussions of political brutality, it betrays itself. When nonviolence begins halfway through the war with the aggressor calling time out, it exposes itself as a ruse. When nonviolence is preached by the representatives of the state, while the state doles out heaps of violence to its citizens, it reveals itself to be a con. And none of this can mean that rioting or violence is "correct" or "wise," any more than a forest fire can be "correct" or "wise." Wisdom isn't the point tonight. Disrespect is. In this case, disrespect for the hollow law and failed order that so regularly disrespects the community.

TJMAC77SP
04-28-2015, 11:45 PM
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/nonviolence-as-compliance/391640/


I am curious about what point you think you are making here by citing an op-ed piece by Ta-Nehisi Coates. A piece wrought with logic flaws but nonetheless not your thoughts so again, what is your attempted point?

Rusty Jones
04-29-2015, 12:10 AM
I am curious about what point you think you are making here by citing an op-ed piece by Ta-Nehisi Coates. A piece wrought with logic flaws but nonetheless not your thoughts so again, what is your attempted point?

Logic, not my thoughts, blah, blah, who cares? Coates makes a good point, whether you agree with it or not.

TJMAC77SP
04-29-2015, 12:42 AM
Logic, not my thoughts, blah, blah, who cares? Coates makes a good point, whether you agree with it or not.

So again no real or direct answer. Ok.

Actually he made the opposite of a good point. His point boils down to "telling people not to riot, loot and burn is a subtle way to keep the black population quiet" That is unadulterated bullshit. The rioters are trash. Separate from the protesters. Perhaps if Coates had made that point his editorial would have at least made sense.

He cites that " ...everyone I knew who lived in that world regarded the police not with admiration and respect but with fear and caution."

He doesn't tell you that the majority or Baltimore Police officers are black (54%), while the percentage of white officers (46%) is higher than the actual white population of Baltimore (30%) the fact remains that math alone tells us that if there is a violence problem within the BPD against the hugely black population of West Baltimore it is not a simple white officer vs. black citizen problem. It also seems to ignore that West Baltimore still suffers from a huge violent crime rate. Where there is crime there is where the police are. Again, simple math.

While I am not sure what happened to Mr. Gray I think it is a fair assumption that he sustained his life-ending injuries during the ride in the van and that very possible the ride was purposefully rough. If so, this is potentially criminal behavior but to characterize this as something that only blacks arrested for crimes in Baltimore experience is utter bullshit and promotes a racist agenda. Ironic isn't it?

Bunch
04-29-2015, 03:51 AM
Somethings are better left unspoken...

garhkal
04-29-2015, 05:22 AM
By "expected" I mean that we know it's going to happen because of prior instances.

If a drunk chick goes to a party at a frat house around a bunch of drunk guys I expect that there's going to be a sexual assault, or an accusation of a sexual assault. I don't condone it, but I know it's going to happen. You place particular people in a particular situation and the outcome is predictable.

Ah.. Gotcha.

sandsjames
04-29-2015, 06:58 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/29/us/baltimore-riots-thug-n-word/index.html

More rhetoric that the word "thug" is being used in place of the "n" word. Interesting that at the bottom of the article it points out specific recent instances where "thug" was used in reference to ISIS, in Asia, and in the Ukraine, by the same people who have used it during the Baltimore riots. It would seem to me that the word "thug" is not even remotely being used to describe blacks...instead it's very clearly being used to describe bullies and criminals of all races, creeds, colors, or nationalities.

sandsjames
04-29-2015, 08:26 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/29/us/baltimore-where-is-joseph-kent/index.html

This is how to properly protest.