PDA

View Full Version : Offensive or not? Kids Playing on Vietnam Memorial



Mjölnir
03-26-2015, 01:07 AM
Military Times: http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2015/03/25/vietnam-statue-kids-climb/70435710/

https://localtvwhnt.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/veteranmemorial_edited.jpg


A photo taken of two young girls playing on the Vietnam Women's Memorialhas sparked outrage online, particularly among veterans.

The picture appeared on Reddit and then a Fox News affiliate picked up the story.

The photo also shows an elderly man who came to visit the memorial. He can be seen in a wheelchair wearing a "USS Emmons" ball cap.The Emmons was destroyed by kamikaze pilots off Okinawa during WWII. Sixty sailors lost their lives.

The Vietnam memorial was designed as a tribute to women who served in Vietnam, most as nurses. It depicts a nurse helping a wounded soldier. Dedicated in 1993, it sits a couple hundred feet from the Vietnam Memorial on the northwest side of the Lincoln Memorial Reflection Pool in Washington, D.C.

The man who snapped the photo, Matthew Munson, told Fox 8 that the children's parents had encouraged them to climb on the memorial for a picture. Munson said he snapped the picture when he noticed the veterans who showed up. Munson said the vets "looked hurt more than angry" as the kids treated the memorial "like a jungle gym" and their parents laughed. He said the veterans looked past the kids toward the parents.

Many on Reddit have eviscerated the parents. Some stressed the mass casualties in the Vietnam War, and demanded a sense of reverence for those who had lost.

Many also suggested kids could just as easily climb a tree or play at a park.

"This is the Nurses Memorial. I'm an Army Vet and a nurse. Only an a------ would let their kids climb on a memorial like it was a jungle gym," a commenter wrote.

But not everyone was as harsh: some saw the carefree children as the very thing veterans fought to enable. One user told of how his grandfather, a World War II veteran, loved watching kids play on a local memorial that had names of lost friends – including his brother – on it.

"He saw it as a way for the next generation to take some joy out of something so terrible and at the same time gave them a link to the past," the commenter wrote, noting that some kids would stop to read names or be prompted to read up on the history.

Another said his grandfather, also a World War II vet, let him play on local memorials in town, adding "I think they fought so kids can freely be kids."

garhkal
03-26-2015, 08:12 AM
IMO that was definitely offensive. I would love to ask those parents if they would like to see someone else's kids playing on THEIR memorial after they die.

Rusty Jones
03-26-2015, 11:39 AM
Most of you already know my stances on fakers, and it carries over right here. Does this suck? Yeah, but I'm not about to start cussing people out over it. It seems to me that in the age of social media and viral videos, the third most popular thing to catch on video after police misconduct and brawls at McDonald's is... people disrespecting the military. That includes fakers, and stuff like this.

I'll be honest... when we, or others, demand that those serving in the military be venerated as gods among men; it's only natural that some people are going to rebel against it. I don't know what the motives of these parents are, but I can't think of one intrinsic motivator for having contempt towards those in the military. Unless you're a business owner who has to deal with being told off every time you tell someone that there are no military discounts.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
03-26-2015, 11:50 AM
If this was a Revolutionary War memorial, would any vets be "outraged" or "offended?" Probably not. I'm afraid with the state of our weak public (government) school systems, the kids and parents (assuming they are Americans) simply did not know better, and most likely were not taught to respect veterans by their progressive liberal teachers. So no, I don't blame the kids or these parents.

sandsjames
03-26-2015, 12:06 PM
Kids playing and having fun. Definitely something that people who fight, or who have fought, for freedoms in this country would not approve of. :eyeroll

I agree completely with Rusty on this. Would I let my kids do it? No. Is it a big deal? No more than people taking selfies in front of the Statue of Liberty...the symbol of freedom and liberty in our country...with their tongues sticking out or doing something else "silly".

Rainmaker
03-26-2015, 02:58 PM
It's not offensive. But, It is disrespectful.
The parents need to be repeatedly bitch slapped in front of their fat bastard kids until they learn some respect. Cultural Marxism has destroyed American families and values.

Rusty Jones
03-26-2015, 07:00 PM
If this was a Revolutionary War memorial, would any vets be "outraged" or "offended?" Probably not. I'm afraid with the state of our weak public (government) school systems, the kids and parents (assuming they are Americans) simply did not know better, and most likely were not taught to respect veterans by their progressive liberal teachers. So no, I don't blame the kids or these parents.



The Soldiers and Sailors Monument in New London, CT is a Civil War monument; and I remember playing on that thing as a child myself, as did most other children that happed to be around it. I remember that thing being covered in silly string every year during the SailFest (which also hosts the OpSail, whenever it comes to town). Granted, the actual statues of the Soldier and the Sailor were too high up for anyone to be able to reach without any rock climbing tools; but you were still able to play on the base of the statue. We're talking back in the early 1980's, so I really can't say for sure how back those "good ol' days" were, when everyone was taught to believe that they owe every servicemember a blowjob.


It's not offensive. But, It is disrespectful.
The parents need to be repeatedly bitch slapped in front of their fat bastard kids until they learn some respect. Cultural Marxism has destroyed American families and values.


I'm actually curious to know when this veneration of servicemembers as gods among men began. I can't recall ever having seen any movie, TV show, book, comic book, poster, pamphlet, brochure, leaflet, tract, t-shirt, bumber sticker, or anything made before Vietnam that basically says, "What? You don't worship people in uniform as your gods? Fuck you, you worthless, communist, anti-American piece of shit!"

garhkal
03-26-2015, 07:45 PM
I'm actually curious to know when this veneration of servicemembers as gods among men began. I can't recall ever having seen any movie, TV show, book, comic book, poster, pamphlet, brochure, leaflet, tract, t-shirt, bumber sticker, or anything made before Vietnam that basically says, "What? You don't worship people in uniform as your gods? Fuck you, you worthless, communist, anti-American piece of shit!"

Its not the veneration of Service members as gods Rusty, its basic courtesy to NOT play on a memorial. In say 30 years or so, would you want to see kids playing on the 9/11 memorial, just cause their parents "Didn't know any better cause they were not taught to respect it"??

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
03-26-2015, 07:51 PM
The Soldiers and Sailors Monument in New London, CT is a Civil War monument; and I remember playing on that thing as a child myself, as did most other children that happed to be around it. I remember that thing being covered in silly string every year during the SailFest (which also hosts the OpSail, whenever it comes to town). Granted, the actual statues of the Soldier and the Sailor were too high up for anyone to be able to reach without any rock climbing tools; but you were still able to play on the base of the statue. We're talking back in the early 1980's, so I really can't say for sure how back those "good ol' days" were, when everyone was taught to believe that they owe every servicemember a blowjob.




I'm actually curious to know when this veneration of servicemembers as gods among men began. I can't recall ever having seen any movie, TV show, book, comic book, poster, pamphlet, brochure, leaflet, tract, t-shirt, bumber sticker, or anything made before Vietnam that basically says, "What? You don't worship people in uniform as your gods? Fuck you, you worthless, communist, anti-American piece of shit!"

Wouldn't it be nice if children, teens, etc were taught the value of the US Constitution, and how so many Americans died to preserve our freedoms and liberties? True, the deaths of many were related to wars of "choice," with questionable value to the preservation of our freedoms. Regardless, if young Americans truly understood the cost of our freedoms, then perhaps we wouldn't see children playing on memorials, or indifferent parents just happily posting these cutesy photos on their facebook sites.

Rainmaker
03-26-2015, 08:05 PM
The Soldiers and Sailors Monument in New London, CT is a Civil War monument; and I remember playing on that thing as a child myself, as did most other children that happed to be around it. I remember that thing being covered in silly string every year during the SailFest (which also hosts the OpSail, whenever it comes to town). Granted, the actual statues of the Soldier and the Sailor were too high up for anyone to be able to reach without any rock climbing tools; but you were still able to play on the base of the statue. We're talking back in the early 1980's, so I really can't say for sure how back those "good ol' days" were, when everyone was taught to believe that they owe every servicemember a blowjob.




I'm actually curious to know when this veneration of servicemembers as gods among men began. I can't recall ever having seen any movie, TV show, book, comic book, poster, pamphlet, brochure, leaflet, tract, t-shirt, bumber sticker, or anything made before Vietnam that basically says, "What? You don't worship people in uniform as your gods? Fuck you, you worthless, communist, anti-American piece of shit!"

I'm not talking about Lionizing every serviceman as a demi-God. What I'm talking about is showing some respect. There's a time and place for kids to play. A National war memorial is not a swing set.

One of the reasons that American Society is in such decline is because of this idiotic "progressive" notion that freedom means each of us gets to define what should be considered acceptable behavior for ourselves.

sandsjames
03-26-2015, 08:05 PM
Wouldn't it be nice if children, teens, etc were taught the value of the US Constitution, and how so many Americans died to preserve our freedoms and liberties? True, the deaths of many were related to wars of "choice," with questionable value to the preservation of our freedoms, but regardless, if young Americans truly understood the cost of our freedoms, then perhaps we wouldn't see children playing on memorials, or indifferent parents just happily posting these cutesy photos on their facebook sites.

The irony of this statement is just too much. You bring up the "value of the US Constitution" and "freedoms and liberties" while at the same time complaining that these kids, who are just being kids, should be restricted in some way. But, of course, a statue/monument/memorial is much more important than parents actually taking the time to attempt to educate their children on something other than video games. Oh, yeah, you also bitch about the photos on their facebook sites. Guess that should be banned, too. Liberty and freedom MY ASS.

Rusty, I agree completely. It happened shortly after 9/11. It started at sporting events. Of course it's not just military members, it's also the almighty NYPD and FDNY who are revered. Funny how on Sept 10th we were all just public heroes, then all the sudden we became gods among men. And the worst part is that most people don't even know why they are treating "us" this way anymore. It's just the thing to do.

Rainmaker
03-26-2015, 08:09 PM
The irony of this statement is just too much. You bring up the "value of the US Constitution" and "freedoms and liberties" while at the same time complaining that these kids, who are just being kids, should be restricted in some way. But, of course, a statue/monument/memorial is much more important than parents actually taking the time to attempt to educate their children on something other than video games. Oh, yeah, you also bitch about the photos on their facebook sites. Guess that should be banned, too. Liberty and freedom MY ASS.

Rusty, I agree completely. It happened shortly after 9/11. It started at sporting events. Of course it's not just military members, it's also the almighty NYPD and FDNY who are revered. Funny how on Sept 10th we were all just public heroes, then all the sudden we became gods among men. And the worst part is that most people don't even know why they are treating "us" this way anymore. It's just the thing to do.

Oh Heaven's No Sandsjames ! It'd just be too much to restrict those poor little children in any way.....Hell, there's only what ?? 300 other acres of open grass and trees in the national mall for them to play on??! we could even risk damaging their little psyches if their parent's tried to teach them any self restraint..... and When exactly did the military start beginning to become so insular?.... Umm, hmmm I don't know... Probably about the time that America's defense stopped being considered a duty to be performed by a representative cross section of the population...

Rainmaker
03-26-2015, 08:14 PM
Wouldn't it be nice if children, teens, etc were taught the value of the US Constitution, and how so many Americans died to preserve our freedoms and liberties? True, the deaths of many were related to wars of "choice," with questionable value to the preservation of our freedoms, but regardless, if young Americans truly understood the cost of our freedoms, then perhaps we wouldn't see children playing on memorials, or indifferent parents just happily posting these cutesy photos on their facebook sites.

The FORWARD SOVIET public school systems are too busy glorifying dysfunction and by blathering on about change and progress to teach Civic pride and duty anymore.

TSat75
03-26-2015, 08:20 PM
I don't think it is offensive - but I do think it is disrespectful.

I have taken our kids to memorials of all kinds - and I teach them about the memorial and what it represents. Even something as simple as going to the Lincoln Library and to the tomb - we didn't let our kids "play" around those things. We have pictures of them in front of memorials - a memory. But the reason we were there was to TEACH our kids about our history and respect it.

Look at memorial itself - it depicts something that I wouldn't let our kids "play" on. But that is just me as a parent. I wouldn't blame the kids - but that is a lost opportunity to teach the kids about respect. Not respect for the military - not respect for even those standing around - respect for OUR history. It doesn't have to be military - that is completely beside the point.

The memorial could be over many different events throughout our history. Would you let your kids play on a Civil Rights memorial? Or would you take the opportunity to teach your kids what the memorial means - maybe take a picture in front of it to capture the memory...but to "play" on them just isn't something I would let my kids do.

But again - not offensive to me. Just disrespectful. I see the argument about kids playing is one of those things we fight for - and I agree. That was my FIRST reaction. I will not fault the kids - kids are being kids. It is for the parents, though, to step in and teach appropriateness and respect.

Just my $0.02.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
03-26-2015, 08:34 PM
The irony of this statement is just too much. You bring up the "value of the US Constitution" and "freedoms and liberties" while at the same time complaining that these kids, who are just being kids, should be restricted in some way. But, of course, a statue/monument/memorial is much more important than parents actually taking the time to attempt to educate their children on something other than video games. Oh, yeah, you also bitch about the photos on their facebook sites. Guess that should be banned, too. Liberty and freedom MY ASS.

Rusty, I agree completely. It happened shortly after 9/11. It started at sporting events. Of course it's not just military members, it's also the almighty NYPD and FDNY who are revered. Funny how on Sept 10th we were all just public heroes, then all the sudden we became gods among men. And the worst part is that most people don't even know why they are treating "us" this way anymore. It's just the thing to do.

Irony? How so? Where in any of my posts did I advocate "banning" and "restrictions?" You're making shit up.

sandsjames
03-27-2015, 10:32 AM
Oh Heaven's No Sandsjames ! It'd just be too much to restrict those poor little children in any way.....Hell, there's only what ?? 300 other acres of open grass and trees in the national mall for them to play on??! we could even risk damaging their little psyches if their parent's tried to teach them any self restraint..... and When exactly did the military start beginning to become so insular?.... Umm, hmmm I don't know... Probably about the time that America's defense stopped being considered a duty to be performed by a representative cross section of the population...

You keep worshipping those idols, RM. Those memorials, the flag, statues, etc. Make them more important than everything else. That's what you are supposed to do. Make them Gods.

You should sit out there with a sniper rifle and shoot all the pigeons who land, and shit, on those memorials. Those disrespectful bastards.

Capt Alfredo
03-29-2015, 01:48 PM
IMO that was definitely offensive. I would love to ask those parents if they would like to see someone else's kids playing on THEIR memorial after they die.

Huh? If they're dead, they won't be seeing anyone playing on their memorial. Duh.

TJMAC77SP
03-29-2015, 05:53 PM
Huh? If they're dead, they won't be seeing anyone playing on their memorial. Duh.

While inelegantly stated if they are asked the question while they are alive then they could give an answer as to what they think of that behavior. Didn't you get that?

TJMAC77SP
03-29-2015, 05:57 PM
Taking offense is a subjective emotion. If someone takes offense to the kids' behavior, so be it. If not, so be that as well.

Holding objects in reverence is not worshipping anything or anyone. Pretty sure all see that. The reverence is actually for what these objects represent. Pretty sure all see that as well.

The burden is not on passing laws to mandate whatever level of respect is desired. The goal is cultural understanding and sensitivity. As others have posted here, that burden was on the parents of those kids and in my opinion they failed. If a playground is dedicated to someone or some group then by all means, play to your hearts content. A statute is not erected for that purpose.

sandsjames
03-29-2015, 07:31 PM
The goal is cultural understanding and sensitivity. Holy shit. Are you quoting directly from the liberal handbook? It's funny that people will ask for more respect for the history and memory of something than they actually will for the living.

Capt Alfredo
03-29-2015, 10:59 PM
While inelegantly stated if they are asked the question while they are alive then they could give an answer as to what they think of that behavior. Didn't you get that?

I promise you I won't give one shit what someone does to a memorial after I'm dead, because...I'll be dead! "Inelegantly stated" or not, the concept is asinine.

TJMAC77SP
03-29-2015, 11:35 PM
I promise you I won't give one shit what someone does to a memorial after I'm dead, because...I'll be dead! "Inelegantly stated" or not, the concept is asinine.

And I promise I won't give one shit what someone does to a memorial after you're dead either. Asinine or not, it's an opinon

TJMAC77SP
03-29-2015, 11:38 PM
Holy shit. Are you quoting directly from the liberal handbook? It's funny that people will ask for more respect for the history and memory of something than they actually will for the living.

If I am it is news to me.

You are taking a very large leap there. If I am reading your assertion correctly, those who would care about the memory of those who died for a cause don't care about the living. I am failing to see your logic. It isn't an either - or situation.

BTW: I was wondering why you cherry-picked part of my post.

"Taking offense is a subjective emotion. If someone takes offense to the kids' behavior, so be it. If not, so be that as well.

Holding objects in reverence is not worshipping anything or anyone. Pretty sure all see that. The reverence is actually for what these objects represent. Pretty sure all see that as well.

The burden is not on passing laws to mandate whatever level of respect is desired. The goal is cultural understanding and sensitivity. As others have posted here, that burden was on the parents of those kids and in my opinion they failed. If a playground is dedicated to someone or some group then by all means, play to your hearts content. A statute is not erected for that purpose."

Doesn't the post in it's entirety state what I believe clearly enough?

Capt Alfredo
03-30-2015, 10:36 AM
And I promise I won't give one shit what someone does to a memorial after you're dead either. Asinine or not, it's an opinon

Some opinions seem to emanate largely from nether regions...

TJMAC77SP
03-30-2015, 02:23 PM
Some opinions seem to emanate largely from nether regions...

We absolutely agree on that.

EDIT: Worth repeating..........we absolutely agree on that.

Rusty Jones
03-30-2015, 03:07 PM
Here's a thought... most statues are on high concrete pedestals, so that it's impossible for anyone to play on them. If they don't want people playing on the statues, then why put them low on the ground for people to play on?

Remember the teen that got arrested for doing THIS?:

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/qtdF3NQFduM/0.jpg

Surely, people are aware that people are going to do things with statues that they can reach. Pose with them, making ridiculous faces and gestures... even poses like the one in that pic.

Again, why not just put them on high pedestals to prevent this, if they don't want anyone playing with them?

garhkal
03-30-2015, 09:19 PM
Cost imo. It costs quite a bit to put them up higher on concrete pedestals.

Stalwart
03-30-2015, 09:32 PM
Remember the teen that got arrested for doing THIS?:

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/qtdF3NQFduM/0.jpg

Surely, people are aware that people are going to do things with statues that they can reach. Pose with them, making ridiculous faces and gestures... even poses like the one in that pic.



I don't remember that incident in the photo ... but since it is a statue of Jesus I would imagine it is a statue on private property (yard, church etc.), and I would image that trespassing was in some way an issue.

TJMAC77SP
03-30-2015, 10:20 PM
I don't remember that incident in the photo ... but since it is a statue of Jesus I would imagine it is a statue on private property (yard, church etc.), and I would image that trespassing was in some way an issue.

There is a specific law regarding desecration of a venerated object. Many tried to pigeonhole that law as protecting only religious related objects but the law is a little too vague for that.

The law provides,

A person commits a misdemeanor of the second degree if he:
(1) intentionally desecrates any public monument or structure, or place of worship or burial;
(2) intentionally desecrates any other object of veneration by the public or a substantial segment thereof in any public place; …
Definitions. — “Desecrate.” Defacing, damaging, polluting or otherwise physically mistreating in a way that the actor knows will outrage the sensibilities of persons likely to observe or discover the action.


I hadn't heard of the story either until RJ posted the pic. A story I found earlier cited similar laws in several states but I can't find that story again (which is weird since it was a simple Google search).

The 14 year old ended up getting probation.


http://www.examiner.com/article/teen-imitates-lewd-sex-act-with-jesus-statue-seen-on-facebook-cops-file-charges

Mjölnir
03-30-2015, 11:52 PM
There is a specific law regarding desecration of a venerated object. Many tried to pigeonhole that law as protecting only religious related objects but the law is a little too vague for that.

The law provides,

A person commits a misdemeanor of the second degree if he:
(1) intentionally desecrates any public monument or structure, or place of worship or burial;
(2) intentionally desecrates any other object of veneration by the public or a substantial segment thereof in any public place; …
Definitions. — “Desecrate.” Defacing, damaging, polluting or otherwise physically mistreating in a way that the actor knows will outrage the sensibilities of persons likely to observe or discover the action.


I hadn't heard of the story either until RJ posted the pic. A story I found earlier cited similar laws in several states but I can't find that story again (which is weird since it was a simple Google search).

The 14 year old ended up getting probation.


http://www.examiner.com/article/teen-imitates-lewd-sex-act-with-jesus-statue-seen-on-facebook-cops-file-charges

http://cdn.churchm.ag/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/knowing-is-half-the-battle.jpg

Rollyn01
03-31-2015, 10:52 AM
http://cdn.churchm.ag/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/knowing-is-half-the-battle.jpg

AAAnnndddd.... I'm stealing this.

sandsjames
03-31-2015, 01:16 PM
If I am it is news to me.

You are taking a very large leap there. If I am reading your assertion correctly, those who would care about the memory of those who died for a cause don't care about the living. I am failing to see your logic. It isn't an either - or situation.

Nope, not saying that you can't care about both. But, in this situation, the family, with kids playing and having fun, is being looked at and criticized while the memorial is being idolized. The need for a memorial seems selfish by all of the living members.

If one of my family members die, I don't give a shit if others come to show respect. It in no way impacts my memories of that member.

And "taking offense" is an emotion that has been taught to people. By constantly being told how we should feel about someone being "disrespected" we learn to react in a certain way.

sandsjames
03-31-2015, 01:18 PM
Here's a thought... most statues are on high concrete pedestals, so that it's impossible for anyone to play on them. If they don't want people playing on the statues, then why put them low on the ground for people to play on?

Remember the teen that got arrested for doing THIS?:

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/qtdF3NQFduM/0.jpg

Surely, people are aware that people are going to do things with statues that they can reach. Pose with them, making ridiculous faces and gestures... even poses like the one in that pic.

Again, why not just put them on high pedestals to prevent this, if they don't want anyone playing with them?

Why have them at all? What purpose do they serve? If someone needs a statue to reinforce their beliefs of anything then they are severely lacking in those beliefs.

Rusty Jones
03-31-2015, 02:06 PM
Cost imo. It costs quite a bit to put them up higher on concrete pedestals.

Then maybe they should delay putting up the statue until they've accumulated enough funds for the pedestal. Or if it's a matter not wanting to put funds toward it all... then maybe the statue wasn't important to begin with.

TJMAC77SP
03-31-2015, 02:54 PM
Nope, not saying that you can't care about both. But, in this situation, the family, with kids playing and having fun, is being looked at and criticized while the memorial is being idolized. The need for a memorial seems selfish by all of the living members.

If one of my family members die, I don't give a shit if others come to show respect. It in no way impacts my memories of that member.

And "taking offense" is an emotion that has been taught to people. By constantly being told how we should feel about someone being "disrespected" we learn to react in a certain way.

You are indeed unique among people. That viewpoint (not giving a shit of people honored for one reason or another) is rare indeed.

I do think the use of the term 'idolize' is a bit too strong but meh, opinions...............

TJMAC77SP
03-31-2015, 02:56 PM
Then maybe they should delay putting up the statue until they've accumulated enough funds for the pedestal. Or if it's a matter not wanting to put funds toward it all... then maybe the statue wasn't important to begin with.

Well, there is also artistic style to consider as well. You don't really think that statues are put on pedestals to keep people off do you? I am curious.

Rusty Jones
03-31-2015, 03:01 PM
Well, there is also artistic style to consider as well. You don't really think that statues are put on pedestals to keep people off do you? I am curious.

You're likely right. However, of the statues that I've seen on pedestals, none are low enough for an average sized adult to reach. Not saying that they're not out there; I've just never seen one.

Rusty Jones
03-31-2015, 03:22 PM
Here's a statue that I'm familiar with - the statue of Caesar Rodney; in Wilmington, DE.

http://www.robbinsrealestate.com/agent_files/Caeser%20Rodney.jpg

I really can't say for sure that the pedestals aren't there to keep people off. I think the people who designed this statue knew fully well that putting this statue on the ground would invite people hop on the horse behind Caesar Rodney. Not saying that that was the purpose of the pedestal, but I'm just saying that I think they knew that. Even if one did somehow manage to find their way up there, imagine the results of slipping off of that smooth metal - all those bumps you'd take before landing on the concrete ground.

TJMAC77SP
03-31-2015, 08:09 PM
Korean War Memorial....DC, Vietnam Nurses Memorial, Vietnam Memorial, 1Lt Karl Richter (Maxwell AFB), USAF Security Police/Security Forces Memorial (albeit on a short pedestal)

garhkal
03-31-2015, 10:18 PM
Then maybe they should delay putting up the statue until they've accumulated enough funds for the pedestal. Or if it's a matter not wanting to put funds toward it all... then maybe the statue wasn't important to begin with.

That i can agree with. But then again, i find a lot of those 'statues put up' always sounding pricier than they should (to my pov) be. Almost like the contractors KNOW the govt is going to pay more for it than normal folk would so they can gouge them easily.

Rainmaker
04-01-2015, 03:34 AM
You keep worshipping those idols, RM. Those memorials, the flag, statues, etc. Make them more important than everything else. That's what you are supposed to do. Make them Gods.

You should sit out there with a sniper rifle and shoot all the pigeons who land, and shit, on those memorials. Those disrespectful bastards.

Honor: If you need it defined, you don't have it.

sandsjames
04-01-2015, 11:11 AM
Honor: If you need it defined, you don't have it.

Exactly. And statues and memorials try to define it.

TJMAC77SP
04-01-2015, 05:22 PM
Exactly. And statues and memorials try to define it.

SJ. How much of your passion in this matter is driven by your religious beliefs? I ask because of your repeated use of the word 'idol' (and derivatives). Just curious.

TJMAC77SP
04-01-2015, 05:42 PM
Here is a video of a confrontation that was linked on FB.

https://youtu.be/eN1P71tHOGc

While I think the Iraq vet's indignation is a bit strenuous I for one won't off-handedly condemn his actions or words because I haven't experienced what he has. We don't fight and die for the flag but when it all said and done it stands as the tangilble symbol of what we do so for. It is completely disingenuous to pretend not to understand that. To me the only real and honest conversation is a discussion of to what degree one takes offense. Is it really honoring the flag (or other symbols) to react violently or profanely?

I did notice a few things which were subtle but revealing to me.

- Two or three of the protestors wore masks. I wondered why.

- The older guy, when asked if he was a veteran removed the baseball cap and kept it in his hand. He earlier told the former Soldier/Marine who was complaining that he too was a veteran and although his exact unit is unintelligible, he can clearly be heard saying "2nd Battalion". His baseball cap was a SEAL hat.

- With the exception of the older guy who at least tried to engage in an adult conversation the others who responded had only flippant and snarky responses. Hardly does much to support their position. (BTW...these were the masked youngsters)

- The youngsters were challenged several times about not knowing what sacrifice was (the intimation being they hadn't served in the military). Their silence in reaction to those comments tells me the guy was on the mark. They haven't served.

sandsjames
04-01-2015, 05:43 PM
SJ. How much of your passion in this matter is driven by your religious beliefs? I ask because of your repeated use of the word 'idol' (and derivatives). Just curious.

I'm using the term idol but not really referring to it in that way (other than my post to RM). I don't see these symbols as idols at all. Just think that they are a lazy way to show support for something.

TJMAC77SP
04-01-2015, 08:02 PM
I'm using the term idol but not really referring to it in that way (other than my post to RM). I don't see these symbols as idols at all. Just think that they are a lazy way to show support for something.

Ok, got it.

I suppose I would agree with you that in some cases the objections are somewhat superficial and hollow. I think it unfair to paint all with that brush though. I know myself that my hackles have gone up when witnessing some asshats and their behavior. I don't necessarily jump up and down but do steam a bit.

Not entirely a 100% relevant example but I once kicked two young civilian workers out of the Hanscom NCO club. There was NCO Leadership School graduation and people in mess dress coming in (myself included). These two asshats were at the bar snickering about the AF giving away medals, etc (of course loud enough for the targets of their humor to hear, myself included). I boiled a bit but held my tongue until the CE Shirt walked in and they continued their remarks. This particular NCO wore the Purple Heart so I pointed out this fact to the asshats and after a very short conversation told them to get out of 'my club'. I realize this was fairly presumptuous of me and in your eyes I suppose I was getting upset over a piece of metal and purple cloth but that is not what I saw (or see).

Rusty Jones
04-01-2015, 08:16 PM
Ok, got it.

I suppose I would agree with you that in some cases the objections are somewhat superficial and hollow. I think it unfair to paint all with that brush though. I know myself that my hackles have gone up when witnessing some asshats and their behavior. I don't necessarily jump up and down but do steam a bit.

Not entirely a 100% relevant example but I once kicked two young civilian workers out of the Hanscom NCO club. There was NCO Leadership School graduation and people in mess dress coming in (myself included). These two asshats were at the bar snickering about the AF giving away medals, etc (of course loud enough for the targets of their humor to hear, myself included). I boiled a bit but held my tongue until the CE Shirt walked in and they continued their remarks. This particular NCO wore the Purple Heart so I pointed out this fact to the asshats and after a very short conversation told them to get out of 'my club'. I realize this was fairly presumptuous of me and in your eyes I suppose I was getting upset over a piece of metal and purple cloth but that is not what I saw (or see).

Is it really the Purple Heart - or just medals in general - whose honor you were defending in this case? Just hurling insults intentionally loud enough for everyone to hear, regardless of what those insults are or are about, should have been enough for them to be shown the door.

sandsjames
04-01-2015, 08:54 PM
Ok, got it.

I suppose I would agree with you that in some cases the objections are somewhat superficial and hollow. I think it unfair to paint all with that brush though. I know myself that my hackles have gone up when witnessing some asshats and their behavior. I don't necessarily jump up and down but do steam a bit.

Not entirely a 100% relevant example but I once kicked two young civilian workers out of the Hanscom NCO club. There was NCO Leadership School graduation and people in mess dress coming in (myself included). These two asshats were at the bar snickering about the AF giving away medals, etc (of course loud enough for the targets of their humor to hear, myself included). I boiled a bit but held my tongue until the CE Shirt walked in and they continued their remarks. This particular NCO wore the Purple Heart so I pointed out this fact to the asshats and after a very short conversation told them to get out of 'my club'. I realize this was fairly presumptuous of me and in your eyes I suppose I was getting upset over a piece of metal and purple cloth but that is not what I saw (or see).

Not at all. A purple heart being worn by a member is a bit different than what we are talking about. Now, if it were just a giant purple heart in some park to represent all who had earned one then, yes, it's pointless. But someone wearing one is a bit different.

Here's my biggest thing, I guess. Memorials are supposed to be for the dead. The dead couldn't care less whether or not there was a memorial for them. Going to a memorial to help me remember what people have gone through is like having to go to church to remember that I believe in God. It's just not necessary. That, of course, is my personal opinion. Some people need external things in order to make them feel proud, I suppose.

TJMAC77SP
04-01-2015, 09:56 PM
Is it really the Purple Heart - or just medals in general - whose honor you were defending in this case? Just hurling insults intentionally loud enough for everyone to hear, regardless of what those insults are or are about, should have been enough for them to be shown the door.

Well, I didn't really get pissed until the SNCO with the PH entered. Hell, I agree that the AF gives away too many medals. Truth be told though these two asshats didn't know one from the other. They had no idea what my rack held or the other SNCO.

TJMAC77SP
04-01-2015, 09:57 PM
Not at all. A purple heart being worn by a member is a bit different than what we are talking about. Now, if it were just a giant purple heart in some park to represent all who had earned one then, yes, it's pointless. But someone wearing one is a bit different.

Here's my biggest thing, I guess. Memorials are supposed to be for the dead. The dead couldn't care less whether or not there was a memorial for them. Going to a memorial to help me remember what people have gone through is like having to go to church to remember that I believe in God. It's just not necessary. That, of course, is my personal opinion. Some people need external things in order to make them feel proud, I suppose.

Memorials are not for the dead anymore than funerals are. It isn't really a 'need' for external things (at least in my case). Just a focal point I guess.

Rusty Jones
04-02-2015, 03:18 PM
Well, I didn't really get pissed until the SNCO with the PH entered. Hell, I agree that the AF gives away too many medals. Truth be told though these two asshats didn't know one from the other. They had no idea what my rack held or the other SNCO.

In comparison to the other services, I think the Air Force has it just right - or is at least the closest to it. The Army seems to be the service that gives theirs away. I see Army E5's with silver oak leaf clusters on their AAMs and at least three or four ARCOMs all the time.

The Navy is stingy as hell. I got out as an E6 with 11 years, and my highest award is three NAMs - which is about average for someone at that point in their career. With enough time in rate as an E6 in the Navy is where most get their first Navy COM (some don't even get it until after they make E7). An MSM? You might as well forget about that, unless you're a Command Master Chief. I've only seen one enlisted person below that with one, and it was an E8 who was a green side Corpsman who had to so some serious shit in order to get it while he was deployed with the Marines.

The Marine Corps is the stingiest of them all. Most E5's I see in the Marine Corps don't even have a NAM, and most E6's I've seen only have one. Maybe two. But no Navy COMs.

Stalwart
04-02-2015, 03:44 PM
Here's my biggest thing, I guess. Memorials are supposed to be for the dead. The dead couldn't care less whether or not there was a memorial for them. Going to a memorial to help me remember what people have gone through is like having to go to church to remember that I believe in God. It's just not necessary. That, of course, is my personal opinion. Some people need external things in order to make them feel proud, I suppose.

The concept behind memorials is as old as people (a cairn of rocks, a statue, a monument, a tombstone etc.) I think memorials are more to honor what those who are memorialized did, stood for, accomplished et al; but I think you are right that a memorial is more for the living than the dead. My father is buried not too far from where I live now (couple of hours) and I have been there a handful of times; not for him ... selfishly and emotionally for me.

If you ever get a chance, check out the WWII memorial, it is one of the new ones but it is really amazing. Whenever there are groups of WWII veterans at the memorial it is humbling to see them there, reminiscing etc. Honor flights are usually looking for folks to escort Vets to DC (some are not too mobile) ... it could get you a free trip to DC for a day.

sandsjames
04-02-2015, 04:27 PM
The concept behind memorials is as old as people (a cairn of rocks, a statue, a monument, a tombstone etc.) I think memorials are more to honor what those who are memorialized did, stood for, accomplished et al; but I think you are right that a memorial is more for the living than the dead. My father is buried not too far from where I live now (couple of hours) and I have been there a handful of times; not for him ... selfishly and emotionally for me.

If you ever get a chance, check out the WWII memorial, it is one of the new ones but it is really amazing. Whenever there are groups of WWII veterans at the memorial it is humbling to see them there, reminiscing etc. Honor flights are usually looking for folks to escort Vets to DC (some are not too mobile) ... it could get you a free trip to DC for a day.

I've never attended the gravesite of any family members. They aren't there so they care not whether I show up or not. I have no problem remembering them or what they did. Other family members get upset at me for this because they think it's disrespectful of me. To me, it's like people who feel the need to get dressed up to go to church. The only people it makes a difference to are those who are there for the wrong reasons.

Again, that's just me. I know I'm in the minority on this.

edit: And I've seen pictures of the WWII memorial. Just as it is with any other landmark (Eifel Tower, Mount Rushmore, Grand Canyon, Stonehenge, etc) they are all pretty much the same in pictures as they are in real life, just not as crowded.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
04-02-2015, 04:45 PM
To me, it's like people who feel the need to get dressed up to go to church. The only people it makes a difference to are those who are there for the wrong reasons.

Again, that's just me. I know I'm in the minority on this.



I agree with you. Same can be said about standing at attention for retreat. Doesn't actually DO anything for our country or the actual level of patriotism you (honestly) feel, but the symbolic act "looks" good to anyone else who is watching you.

TJMAC77SP
04-02-2015, 05:09 PM
In comparison to the other services, I think the Air Force has it just right - or is at least the closest to it. The Army seems to be the service that gives theirs away. I see Army E5's with silver oak leaf clusters on their AAMs and at least three or four ARCOMs all the time.

The Navy is stingy as hell. I got out as an E6 with 11 years, and my highest award is three NAMs - which is about average for someone at that point in their career. With enough time in rate as an E6 in the Navy is where most get their first Navy COM (some don't even get it until after they make E7). An MSM? You might as well forget about that, unless you're a Command Master Chief. I've only seen one enlisted person below that with one, and it was an E8 who was a green side Corpsman who had to so some serious shit in order to get it while he was deployed with the Marines.

The Marine Corps is the stingiest of them all. Most E5's I see in the Marine Corps don't even have a NAM, and most E6's I've seen only have one. Maybe two. But no Navy COMs.

That has been my experience with members of the Navy and Marine Corps I have known as well. One thing that always gave me a chuckle is to see a PFC wearing unit awards earned by his current unit of assignment in WWII.

TJMAC77SP
04-02-2015, 05:11 PM
I've never attended the gravesite of any family members. They aren't there so they care not whether I show up or not. I have no problem remembering them or what they did. Other family members get upset at me for this because they think it's disrespectful of me. To me, it's like people who feel the need to get dressed up to go to church. The only people it makes a difference to are those who are there for the wrong reasons.

Again, that's just me. I know I'm in the minority on this.

edit: And I've seen pictures of the WWII memorial. Just as it is with any other landmark (Eifel Tower, Mount Rushmore, Grand Canyon, Stonehenge, etc) they are all pretty much the same in pictures as they are in real life, just not as crowded.

I will repeat myself................You are indeed unique among people. Well, you and Flaps evidently.

sandsjames
04-02-2015, 06:02 PM
I will repeat myself................You are indeed unique among people. Well, you and Flaps evidently.

I think you will find many more. Take, for instance, his mention of retreat. I almost guarantee that, if not for fear of getting in trouble, the majority of a base would not stand at attention when outside. Hell, look at how many already duck and hide when retreat sounds. I don't think that means they love their country or respect those before them anymore than the guy who makes the effort to ensure he is always outside when it sounds.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
04-02-2015, 06:10 PM
I think you will find many more. Take, for instance, his mention of retreat. I almost guarantee that, if not for fear of getting in trouble, the majority of a base would not stand at attention when outside. Hell, look at how many already duck and hide when retreat sounds. I don't think that means they love their country or respect those before them anymore than the guy who makes the effort to ensure he is always outside when it sounds.

Not just fear of getting in trouble, but fear of being harassed, bullied, labeled a "communist," "hater," you name it. Call it church, retreat, visiting family at a cemetery, or perhaps even attending a funeral. Perceptions of why you go against expectations can be 180 degrees from the reality of why you choose not to follow the norms.

SomeRandomGuy
04-02-2015, 06:11 PM
I think you will find many more. Take, for instance, his mention of retreat. I almost guarantee that, if not for fear of getting in trouble, the majority of a base would not stand at attention when outside. Hell, look at how many already duck and hide when retreat sounds. I don't think that means they love their country or respect those before them anymore than the guy who makes the effort to ensure he is always outside when it sounds.

At Wright-Patterson, they stopped playing "To The Colors" after Reville in the mornings. This means you don't need to stop and salute. In short, you can pretty much ignore Reville which made things a hell of a lot easier when getting to work in the mornings.

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123324792

sandsjames
04-02-2015, 06:16 PM
In short, you can pretty much ignore Reville which made things a hell of a lot easier when getting to work in the mornings.

Exactly. And that's how most people feel about it, even if they tell themselves otherwise.

garhkal
04-02-2015, 10:49 PM
The Navy is stingy as hell. I got out as an E6 with 11 years, and my highest award is three NAMs - which is about average for someone at that point in their career. With enough time in rate as an E6 in the Navy is where most get their first Navy COM (some don't even get it until after they make E7). An MSM? You might as well forget about that, unless you're a Command Master Chief. I've only seen one enlisted person below that with one, and it was an E8 who was a green side Corpsman who had to so some serious shit in order to get it while he was deployed with the Marines.


Agreed. At 3 of my commands i was stationed at, it was almost an unwritten rule that if you were E4 and below you were NEVER going to get a NAM, only a Letter of commendation or Flag letter of appireciation.
E4-5, you might get a NAM but most likely would get a Flag letter of commendation.
E5 or 6, Navy commendation medal is a POSSIBILITY but most likely you only got a NAM. E6, and NCMs were a better chance.
And MCMs were Khaki realm only.


I agree with you. Same can be said about standing at attention for retreat. Doesn't actually DO anything for our country or the actual level of patriotism you (honestly) feel, but the symbolic act "looks" good to anyone else who is watching you.

I always (if in uniform) that was a requirement by the mil regs.. Also if on base in civies, you still had to "pop tall".

Bos Mutus
04-02-2015, 10:58 PM
Interesting converstation. Led me to examine some of my own feelings.

My mother passed away almost 25 years ago. She was cremated and her ashes buried in a Church garden. She has a small nameplate on a wall with a bunch of other people who were also cremated and buried there. I think I'd been back once to find her name again and take some moments to pause and reflect. This is certainly not the only time I have reflected on my mother's life and her impact on mine. I still do it quite often in my daily life. So, the physical memorial/location of her burial does not hold a lot of meaning to me.

I'm not one to get emotional at other memorials either. Though I do think they often give an occasion, or focal point as was mentioned, to take a moment to pause and reflect. If someone was huge in your lift, like a mother, this is probably not entirely necessary. I wonder what it would be like if we had none though...and I don't think that's entirely right either. Strangely, I have visited gravesites of some famous people, other civil war cemetaries and find that kind of interesting...standing at Mt. Vernon knowing George Washington is buried under that stone...or going to the St. Peter's Basilica and thinking St. Peter may be actually (reportedly) buried there...I dunno, there's something about that.

I don't want or expect any kind of memorial when I die. I've often told my wife to have me cremated in a cardboard box, charter a boat and throw my ashes over the side...then do some fishing, maybe have some lunch and go on living.

All in all...kids climbing on the memorial, yes, it's disrespectful. This memorial was built as a place for people to take a moment and reflect on the sacrifices made... Offensive? I dunno...isn't everything nowadays.

TJMAC77SP
04-02-2015, 11:32 PM
Exactly. And that's how most people feel about it, even if they tell themselves otherwise.

Well then with those on point examples I suppose I am the unique person.