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Mjölnir
03-07-2015, 01:45 AM
Army Times: http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/pentagon/2015/03/06/army-eases-ban-on-transgender-soldiers/24529333/


WASHINGTON — The Army issued a directive Friday that protects transgender soldiers from being dismissed by mid-level officers by requiring the decision for discharge to be made by the service's top civilian for personnel matters.

The Army's new policy is the latest indication that the military's ban on transgender troops may be eased or even lifted.

Last month, Defense Secretary Ash Carter told troops he was "very open-minded" about transgender troops, adding that nothing but a person's ability to serve should keep them from serving. Two days later, White House press secretary Josh Earnest said President Obama endorsed Carter's comments.

garhkal
03-07-2015, 03:55 AM
Yet more PCISM invading out military.

Rainmaker
03-07-2015, 03:37 PM
yet more pcism invading out military.

FORWARD OVER THE CLiFF!!!!!! CANKLES 2016!!!

Rusty Jones
03-07-2015, 10:15 PM
Trade in your cock and balls for an easier PT test. Hmmm... I might have to give that one some thought...

garhkal
03-08-2015, 06:28 AM
That's the thing though. WILL someone transgendered have to abide by Male, female or some other rules for things such as PT test, grooming standards and uniforms?

ACME_MAN
05-13-2019, 08:50 PM
The one thing I believe, whether transgendered or not, is that there should be separate regiments for gay and lesbian soldiers as well as for women in general . . . this for morale purposes. The army should not be a place for social experimentation.

FLAPS
05-13-2019, 09:18 PM
The one thing I believe, whether transgendered or not, is that there should be separate regiments for gay and lesbian soldiers as well as for women in general . . . this for morale purposes. The army should not be a place for social experimentation.

Separate Navy ships for each category too!

SeaLawyer
05-15-2019, 12:24 PM
Separate Navy ships for each category too!

We can tactically paint the ships with rainbow colors.

Separate berthing on a ship is a whole new ball of wax!!!

FLAPS
05-15-2019, 03:40 PM
We can tactically paint the ships with rainbow colors.

Separate berthing on a ship is a whole new ball of wax!!!

And since the LGBTQTXYZ community have 'culturally appropriated' the rainbow symbol, the rainbow colors will apply to each special category Naval Branch (Gay men, Lesbian women, and the confused/questioning/anti-biology categories). Their guns will fire love, not bullets...perhaps rainbow confetti. Berthing will be easy, with two to three to a rack. You get what/who you're assigned.

Mjölnir
05-16-2019, 12:27 AM
The one thing I believe, whether transgendered or not, is that there should be separate regiments for gay and lesbian soldiers as well as for women in general . . . this for morale purposes. The army should not be a place for social experimentation.

80 years ago racially segregated units made sense. 30 years ago your idea would have made sense; in general today’s junior personnel do not have the same attitudes on serving side by side with females or LGBT folks.

Rainmaker
05-16-2019, 02:21 AM
in general today’s junior personnel do not have the same attitudes on serving side by side with females or LGBT folks.

These lunatic perversions are not as accepted, as we've been lead to believe... At least not according my 26 year old, Infantry Officer son & his buddies in the Army.

Mjölnir
05-16-2019, 03:31 AM
These lunatic perversions are not as accepted, as we've been lead to believe... At least not according my 26 year old, Infantry Officer son & his buddies in the Army.

Probably not as many with an agenda would put it ... but based on what I observe, it isn't as stigmatized as it would have been when I first entered the military 28 years ago; my point being ... we are all 'around' the same age ... what we in our teens / young 20s would have scoffed at, most of the young service members don't. It happens.

Something I noticed when I transitioned from regular infantry to Recon / Special Operations etc. was a lot less talk & concern (BS) over the color of someones skin, where or if they went to church, if they were male or female, who they slept with etc. ... most important was if they could do the job. Professionals can recognize that they may have a personal bias, but that isn't the job ... and set it aside to get things done.

meatbringer
05-16-2019, 12:15 PM
These lunatic perversions are not as accepted, as we've been lead to believe... At least not according my 26 year old, Infantry Officer son & his buddies in the Army.

The son of the man who refers to them as "lunatic perversions" doesn't accept them? Wow, you don't say! I wonder why that is? lol

garhkal
05-16-2019, 06:38 PM
Probably not as many with an agenda would put it ... but based on what I observe, it isn't as stigmatized as it would have been when I first entered the military 28 years ago; my point being ... we are all 'around' the same age ... what we in our teens / young 20s would have scoffed at, most of the young service members don't. It happens.

And imo that is down somewhat, to the indoctrination they get at schooling, from K to college, to 'be accepting or be a bigot'..

USN - Retired
05-16-2019, 10:18 PM
A politically incorrect cartoon...

https://comicallyincorrect.com/a-fbranco-cartoon-equality-act/

garhkal
05-17-2019, 05:36 AM
With the news that transgender weight lifter, got stripped. That cartoon is spot on.

FLAPS
05-17-2019, 10:27 AM
A politically incorrect cartoon...

https://comicallyincorrect.com/a-fbranco-cartoon-equality-act/


I heard about a different story on the radio last week. It's an absolute travesty that what biological females are having to deal with in sports. I was listening to an interview with this girl and she said the response to her concerns about her inability to compete with a transgender girl was, "stop complaining and start training harder."

https://www.dailysignal.com/2019/05/06/8th-place-high-school-girls-speak-out-on-getting-beat-by-biological-boys/

Mjölnir
05-17-2019, 05:43 PM
I heard about a different story on the radio last week. It's an absolute travesty that what biological females are having to deal with in sports. I was listening to an interview with this girl and she said the response to her concerns about her inability to compete with a transgender girl was, "stop complaining and start training harder."

https://www.dailysignal.com/2019/05/06/8th-place-high-school-girls-speak-out-on-getting-beat-by-biological-boys/

I would agree that allowing genetic males who have transitioned / are transition to a female Stu’s compete athletically against genetic females presents an unfair situation.

garhkal
05-17-2019, 08:25 PM
I heard about a different story on the radio last week. It's an absolute travesty that what biological females are having to deal with in sports. I was listening to an interview with this girl and she said the response to her concerns about her inability to compete with a transgender girl was, "stop complaining and start training harder."

https://www.dailysignal.com/2019/05/06/8th-place-high-school-girls-speak-out-on-getting-beat-by-biological-boys/

I've seen similar stories, where girls at schools, complained about having to compete against guys who 'claimed to be women', and were beating them. AND they were told to shut up/stop whining, or get kicked off the squad..!

FLAPS
05-18-2019, 10:34 AM
I've seen similar stories, where girls at schools, complained about having to compete against guys who 'claimed to be women', and were beating them. AND they were told to shut up/stop whining, or get kicked off the squad..!

I'm not sure how this issue will ultimately pan out, as it runs in the very face of 'equality' and will only create more resentment from the parents and kids who've worked so hard for so long to be competitive, only to have all training efforts negated when they're told to either compete against a biological male, or drop out of the sport altogether. To complain about it is to be labeled a "bigot," because otherwise the transgender 'equality' proponents will be forced to admit that a transgender female is, well, not really a female.

garhkal
05-18-2019, 07:42 PM
I'm not sure how this issue will ultimately pan out, as it runs in the very face of 'equality' and will only create more resentment from the parents and kids who've worked so hard for so long to be competitive, only to have all training efforts negated when they're told to either compete against a biological male, or drop out of the sport altogether. To complain about it is to be labeled a "bigot," because otherwise the transgender 'equality' proponents will be forced to admit that a transgender female is, well, not really a female.

Exactly. The left pushes the Mantra of "we have to accept/allow it" all because of equality, when in effect, its making things LESS EQUAL..

meatbringer
05-19-2019, 12:42 AM
Exactly. The left pushes the Mantra of "we have to accept/allow it" all because of equality, when in effect, its making things LESS EQUAL..

Well, I know I'm going to regret this, but I'm gonna roll the dice:

Please provide me with some factual evidence/examples of students being forced to leave sports because of transgender students participating.

garhkal
05-19-2019, 07:05 AM
Here ya go meat..
https://www.wnd.com/2013/10/complaint-over-transgender-harassment-brings-threat/

https://www.infowars.com/girls-threatened-with-hate-crime-charges-for-complaining-about-transgender-bathroom-harassment/


When the female students continued to complain about the harassment, the school threatened to kick them off the athletic team or even hit them with hate crimes charges if they didn’t stay silent.

meatbringer
05-19-2019, 07:39 AM
Here ya go meat..
https://www.wnd.com/2013/10/complaint-over-transgender-harassment-brings-threat/

https://www.infowars.com/girls-threatened-with-hate-crime-charges-for-complaining-about-transgender-bathroom-harassment/

Garhkal, the "WND" article has nothing to do with sports and transgender. Also, the "Infowars" article you posted talks about harassment for bathroom usage. Are we still talking about transgender participation in sports, or are we switching gears? Just checking. We need the facts about said "harassment" before crucifying anyone over anything. I commend you on actually citing an article; however, please note that the only thing you could come up with is "Infowars": the conspiracy theory/nut job right wing outlet that says Hillary ran a sex slave ring, Sandy Hook was fake, some yogurts make you gay, and chem trails and "gay bombs" are thing to worry about.

Anyways, the "Infowars article" (lol) states that children complaining about a school policy/state law were threatened with hate crime charges. What was said or done by these students, and was there harassment? It's Infowars, man....

The truth is that I don't really feel it's fair or unfair in each case, as it depends on the sport, persons involved, etc. The bathroom issue? Well, once again countries around the world laugh at us as we cry about "problems" that no one else sees as a problem. Plenty of other developed countries have unisex bathrooms or transgender policies in place that allow them to use the bathroom of their identified gender. Zero issues worth noting.

FLAPS
05-19-2019, 11:14 AM
The truth is that I don't really feel it's fair or unfair in each case, as it depends on the sport, persons involved, etc.

If you don't have a set standard, then WHO gets to decide in each individual case?

[/QUOTE]The bathroom issue? Well, once again countries around the world laugh at us as we cry about "problems" that no one else sees as a problem. Plenty of other developed countries have unisex bathrooms or transgender policies in place that allow them to use the bathroom of their identified gender. Zero issues worth noting.[/QUOTE]


You state that other countries "laugh" at us. A country in itself is not a person, and therefore is incapable of expressing any "opinion." Therefore, I am quite certain you are referring to the official, collective voice of their individual governments. I am also quite certain that if you were to poll actual people, you will find quite a number of them who are just as opposed to unisex bathrooms as us barbaric, rich, gun-toting homophobic, bible-thumping, deplorable bigoted Americans.

In the view of those who are proponents of universal government control, issues brought up by individuals are never "worth noting."

meatbringer
05-19-2019, 11:31 AM
If you don't have a set standard, then WHO gets to decide in each individual case?

The school district, local government, state, etc.

[/QUOTE]You state that other countries "laugh" at us. A country in itself is not a person, and therefore is incapable of expressing any "opinion." Therefore, I am quite certain you are referring to the official, collective voice of their individual governments. I am also quite certain that if you were to poll actual people, you will find quite a number of them who are just as opposed to unisex bathrooms as us barbaric, rich, gun-toting homophobic, bible-thumping, deplorable bigoted Americans.

In the view of those who are proponents of universal government control, issues brought up by individuals are never "worth noting."[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry, guess I'll have to clarify. People polled and interviewed in countries around the world (Ireland, Argentina, Norway), specifically in countries where there are unisex bathrooms and similar trans bathroom standards, laugh at us and are confused as to why we make an issue of it.

I always hear about "liberal/leftist crying," and yet, specifically on this forum, all I read are a select few crying about policies that are not only not hurting anyone, but they are not issues anywhere else in the world. When asked for proof of these "problems," I get Infowars replies or personal opinion from people who call trans "perverse lunatics."

FLAPS
05-19-2019, 01:44 PM
People polled and interviewed in countries around the world (Ireland, Argentina, Norway), specifically in countries where there are unisex bathrooms and similar trans bathroom standards, laugh at us and are confused as to why we make an issue of it.

Whose polls? Salon, HuffPO, MSNBC? You also state that nobody is hurt from these policies, yet I cited one example on this thread of where a teenage female was hurt because she worked her ass off for years to be competitive, only to have zero chance of winning a competition against a MALE who wears a skirt. It's SICK that ANY government or school board would allow that.

meatbringer
05-19-2019, 02:41 PM
Whose polls? Salon, HuffPO, MSNBC? You also state that nobody is hurt from these policies, yet I cited one example on this thread of where a teenage female was hurt because she worked her ass off for years to be competitive, only to have zero chance of winning a competition against a MALE who wears a skirt. It's SICK that ANY government or school board would allow that.

https://apnews.com/c77488997596473a9355aaaec0faca48

https://www.mic.com/articles/114066/statistics-show-exactly-how-many-times-trans-people-have-attacked-you-in-bathrooms

https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/business/article/2024111/why-japanese-businesses-are-embracing-lgbt-community

https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2018/09/12/study-refutes-link-between-restroom-crime-and-transgender-access/5am4LMI1IHecGvJTW4MBqN/story.html

I also named some of the countries that are more advanced than the US with trans laws/rights, so please feel free to look them up. Also, Denmark, Malta, Spain...the list goes on. Many developed countries have far more lax trans laws, unisex bathrooms, and no real issues. The only noteworthy issues that come about are uncomfortable, scared cranks beating on these poor people due to their ignorance and hate.

So this female high school athlete was hurt? By hurt do you mean she didn't get first place? Whatever the case, I don't fully agree with all the policies out there concerning high school sports. Like I said, it's a discussion that needs to be had, debated at the proper levels, and decided on by the people who make those decisions with all the necessary facts and variables taken into consideration. No, I don't agree with it all. A good example is the trans wrestler who demolished all the female wrestlers due to higher T levels, larger frame and muscle structure, etc. Like I said, these things need to be debated and decided upon by informed adults, but that's difficult to accomplish. These forums are a great example of why these conversations can't be had.

FLAPS
05-19-2019, 03:12 PM
The only noteworthy issues that come about are uncomfortable, scared cranks beating on these poor people due to their ignorance and hate.

These forums are a great example of why these conversations can't be had.

You're right, these conversations can't be had, especially when you label someone with an opposing opinion as an "uncomfortable, scared crank." Then again, that's what some people do...shut down the discussion with name calling. Stay classy

USN - Retired
05-19-2019, 05:51 PM
A good example is the trans wrestler who demolished all the female wrestlers due to higher T levels, larger frame and muscle structure, etc.

Then wouldn't a genetic/biological female (i.e. born female) soldier be "demolished" in hand-to-hand combat against a genetic/biological male soldier "due to higher T levels, larger frame and muscle structure, etc" of the genetic/biological male soldier?

meatbringer
05-19-2019, 10:01 PM
You're right, these conversations can't be had, especially when you label someone with an opposing opinion as an "uncomfortable, scared crank." Then again, that's what some people do...shut down the discussion with name calling. Stay classy

I didn't realize you had beaten up trans people. What made you think I was talking about you? Oh well, it's not like you would bring anything relevant or factual to the table anyways.

meatbringer
05-19-2019, 10:03 PM
Then wouldn't a genetic/biological female (i.e. born female) soldier be "demolished" in hand-to-hand combat against a genetic/biological male soldier "due to higher T levels, larger frame and muscle structure, etc" of the genetic/biological male soldier?

That all depends. Possibly. Also, don't forget that we allow females to work in combat positions as well, so your point is moot.

Mjölnir
05-21-2019, 01:14 PM
Then wouldn't a genetic/biological female (i.e. born female) soldier be "demolished" in hand-to-hand combat against a genetic/biological male soldier "due to higher T levels, larger frame and muscle structure, etc" of the genetic/biological male soldier?

More often than not a genetic male who went through puberty will have higher muscle mass, bone density etc. Whether or not a female would get demolished by a genetic male ... maybe, depends on training. Brute strength doesn't always overcome good training when it comes to fighting / combatives. I have seen a straight / 'normal' male beaten by a female in combatives training before ... it isn't the norm ... but the opposite isn't absolute.

The Marines did an initial study on females in the infantry and in the pilot classes at SOI (School of Infantry) that had females, the females didn't do well. The Marines went back and looked at why, then retooled female boot camp to better prepare female recruits / Marines-to-be for SOI and the pass rate (not numbers, but raw percentage) now match that of males -- without a change in the standard to graduate. Infantry Officers' School (IOC) still sees a pretty high failure rate for females. The Marines made the women rise to the standard ... they did.

BT BT

A couple of different thought streams here:

Transgender in the military: No study shows that it would impact readiness, lethality etc. All the Service Chiefs, the prior SECDEF (Mattis), the military Surgeons General all testified that service by transgender members would not have a negative impact. POTUS reinstated the ban with some exceptions ... that is his prerogative, but it wasn't based on anything other than playing to a base for politics ... I don't think it will hold up long term. The questions should be if the person can do the job. Someone who isn't displaying adverse mental health issues shouldn't be barred from service if they can do the job; gender dysphoria alone isn't adverse / doesn't impact that ability to do the job.

Transgender in sports: I don't think this is really fair. As was said earlier, once a genetic male undergoes puberty, he will have a higher muscle mass, bone density etc. Testosterone inhibitors, estrogen etc. will curb some of that 'advantage' ... but not all of it. At these competitive levels, this type of advantage isn't fair nor keeping with what I think 'sport' is about.

Is a transgender female a 'real' female / transgender male a 'real' male: IMO no. But if she / 'she' wants to be treated like a female, called she, called Brenda vice Bob ... it doesn't impact me to do so in any way ... no more than a guy whose name is Robert and wants to be called Bob, or whose name is Thomas Joseph Smith and wants to be called TJ.

Mjölnir
05-21-2019, 01:14 PM
Then wouldn't a genetic/biological female (i.e. born female) soldier be "demolished" in hand-to-hand combat against a genetic/biological male soldier "due to higher T levels, larger frame and muscle structure, etc" of the genetic/biological male soldier?

More often than not a genetic male who went through puberty will have higher muscle mass, bone density etc. Whether or not a female would get demolished by a genetic male ... maybe, depends on training. Brute strength doesn't always overcome good training when it comes to fighting / combatives. I have seen a straight / 'normal' male beaten by a female in combatives training before ... it isn't the norm ... but the opposite isn't absolute.

The Marines did an initial study on females in the infantry and in the pilot classes at SOI (School of Infantry) that had females, the females didn't do well. The Marines went back and looked at why, then retooled female boot camp to better prepare female recruits / Marines-to-be for SOI and the pass rate (not numbers, but raw percentage) now match that of males -- without a change in the standard to graduate. Infantry Officers' School (IOC) still sees a pretty high failure rate for females. The Marines made the women rise to the standard ... they did.

BT BT

A couple of different thought streams here:

Transgender in the military: No study shows that it would impact readiness, lethality etc. All the Service Chiefs, the prior SECDEF (Mattis), the military Surgeons General all testified that service by transgender members would not have a negative impact. POTUS reinstated the ban with some exceptions ... that is his prerogative, but it wasn't based on anything other than playing to a base for politics ... I don't think it will hold up long term. The questions should be if the person can do the job. Someone who isn't displaying adverse mental health issues shouldn't be barred from service if they can do the job; gender dysphoria alone isn't adverse / doesn't impact that ability to do the job.

Transgender in sports: I don't think this is really fair. As was said earlier, once a genetic male undergoes puberty, he will have a higher muscle mass, bone density etc. Testosterone inhibitors, estrogen etc. will curb some of that 'advantage' ... but not all of it. At these competitive levels, this type of advantage isn't fair nor keeping with what I think 'sport' is about.

Is a transgender female a 'real' female / transgender male a 'real' male: IMO no. But if she / 'she' wants to be treated like a female, called she, called Brenda vice Bob ... it doesn't impact me to do so in any way ... no more than a guy whose name is Robert and wants to be called Bob, or whose name is Thomas Joseph Smith and wants to be called Tom, Joe or TJ.

FLAPS
05-21-2019, 04:07 PM
Transgender in sports: I don't think this is really fair. As was said earlier, once a genetic male undergoes puberty, he will have a higher muscle mass, bone density etc. Testosterone inhibitors, estrogen etc. will curb some of that 'advantage' ... but not all of it. At these competitive levels, this type of advantage isn't fair nor keeping with what I think 'sport' is about.

Is a transgender female a 'real' female / transgender male a 'real' male: IMO no. But if she / 'she' wants to be treated like a female, called she, called Brenda vice Bob ... it doesn't impact me to do so in any way ... no more than a guy whose name is Robert and wants to be called Bob, or whose name is Thomas Joseph Smith and wants to be called Tom, Joe or TJ.

It's actually refreshing to read someone's response in such a clear, concise manner. None of this multiple paragraphs of goobly-gook that beat around the answer, defer it to a "school board" or" committee," etc.

You'd make a horrible politician, since you have this habit of getting straight to the point and putting your opinion up front and center.

USN - Retired
05-21-2019, 04:18 PM
The Marines did an initial study on females in the infantry and in the pilot classes at SOI (School of Infantry) that had females, the females didn't do well. The Marines went back and looked at why, then retooled female boot camp to better prepare female recruits / Marines-to-be for SOI and the pass rate (not numbers, but raw percentage) now match that of males -- without a change in the standard to graduate. Infantry Officers' School (IOC) still sees a pretty high failure rate for females. The Marines made the women rise to the standard ... they did.

Counterpoint:

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/women-combat-units

garhkal
05-21-2019, 06:55 PM
Garhkal, the "WND" article has nothing to do with sports and transgender. Also, the "Infowars" article you posted talks about harassment for bathroom usage. Are we still talking about transgender participation in sports, or are we switching gears? Just checking. We need the facts about said "harassment" before crucifying anyone over anything. I commend you on actually citing an article; however, please note that the only thing you could come up with is "Infowars": the conspiracy theory/nut job right wing outlet that says Hillary ran a sex slave ring, Sandy Hook was fake, some yogurts make you gay, and chem trails and "gay bombs" are thing to worry about.

Anyways, the "Infowars article" (lol) states that children complaining about a school policy/state law were threatened with hate crime charges. What was said or done by these students, and was there harassment? It's Infowars, man....

The truth is that I don't really feel it's fair or unfair in each case, as it depends on the sport, persons involved, etc. The bathroom issue? Well, once again countries around the world laugh at us as we cry about "problems" that no one else sees as a problem. Plenty of other developed countries have unisex bathrooms or transgender policies in place that allow them to use the bathroom of their identified gender. Zero issues worth noting.

Well since both were on about the same High school, and DID say to the students that they'd get booted of the team (as per the part i quoted), if they kept complaining, yes i DO see that as relevant..

meatbringer
05-21-2019, 10:09 PM
Well since both were on about the same High school, and DID say to the students that they'd get booted of the team (as per the part i quoted), if they kept complaining, yes i DO see that as relevant..

You stated that the students were going to be kicked off for complaining about trans in sports, then you cited (Infowars) about students and harassment regarding the bathroom issue, and that students were threatened with being punished if harassment continued. It's not really the same, is it? No kids were threatened with being kicked off the team over the sports debate, as you initially stated. And now we find out that the story is false...

And for the record, I don't agree with it if that were actually the case; however, please don't take too much offense to me being skeptical, especially since all you could find to "support" your view is the right wing nut job conspiracy outlet, Infowars. And now, as Mjolinr has pointed out, the Infowars article was a sham (just like every other Infowars story). Nice....

About a dozen articles of credible scientific research and findings = "left wing crying"
A debunked Infowars article containing nothing but hearsay = Proof!
lol

meatbringer
05-21-2019, 10:12 PM
It's actually refreshing to read someone's response in such a clear, concise manner. None of this multiple paragraphs of goobly-gook that beat around the answer, defer it to a "school board" or" committee," etc.

You'd make a horrible politician, since you have this habit of getting straight to the point and putting your opinion up front and center.

I simply said to consider all variables (info Mjolnir posted) and leave each case up to the people tasked with making such decisions. Sorry you need every single little detail spelled out for you to ignore anyways. Also, Mjolnir cited research and analysis, so I know you don't like that "liberal crying" science stuff.

Let's not forget that I posted about a dozen different scientific articles stating exactly what Mjolnir cited, per your request, just for you to ignore them and start with name calling and dumb jokes, then you get riled up when I state that people are beating up trans people.

Mjölnir
05-21-2019, 10:31 PM
Counterpoint:

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/women-combat-units

A couple of things I think that article doesn't explain well (purposely or not?):

1. The article points out the 2015 study and the poor results, but ignores the steps the Marine Corps took after the 2015 study and the results (equal passing percentages at the School of Infantry -- SOI for enlisted Marines.). If your information cutoff for WWII is Dec 8th 1941, we lost the war.

2. The event discussed at Infantry Officers' School is the CET (Combat Endurance Test). It was never a formalized / codified event -- I was an instructor there for 2 summer cycles. The CET is the initial gut check at IOC and the major reason / justification for changing it was that the standards for the event far exceeded the Mission Essential Tasks, Enabling Learning Objectives and Terminal Learning objectives for IOC. An Infantry Officer candidate could meet all the codified and expected levels of fitness & competence for an Infantry Officer, and not pass the CET. It turned out that the CET 'standard' was a moving bar standard that changed with each IOC Commanding Officer and was not approved by TECOM (the USMC Training and Education Command). IOC made it a non graded event since it did not have a formal function reflected by the approved training standards.

What I think the article should have expanded on:

1. Yes, there have been issues with females integrating into traditionally all male units. I have observed this, and seen it lessen over the years ... people have to get used to something new. Additionally, when I was deployed in Afghanistan and Iraq, my team had females assigned and there were no issues, my last deployment on a DDG saw exactly zero surprise pregnancies, male / female relation issues etc. Why? Leadership. Good leaders will make the expectation & standards of behavior very clear, will enforce them, and hold accountable those that fall short. The recent firing of the CO of USS FLORIDA is a prime example. Sailors maintained and distributed spreadsheets called / file name a “rape list” on the ship’s network. He list detailed female members of the crew and what sex acts people most wanted to see them perform — the CO found out about it from the Senior Enlisted and did nothing. Unprofessional is unprofessional ... and not the fault of the female crew members; while this may be short of criminal ... it is clearly unprofessional and violates the official use policy.


If I had a subordinate leader who came to me and stated they couldn't lead an integrated team ... I would question their ability to lead ... we already have cracked the code on getting a black kid from Harlem, a white kid from Mississippi, an Asian kid from California etc. to work as a cohesive team ... working past racial, cultural and other issues ... gender issues are not different. As a PltSgt, Divo, Department Head, XO & CO ... I have lost more readiness to DUIs than I have gender relations ... should we just ban alcohol for everyone ... or find a way to lead?

Mjölnir
05-21-2019, 10:33 PM
You'd make a horrible politician, since you have this habit of getting straight to the point and putting your opinion up front and center.

That is actually a compliment ;)

Mjölnir
05-22-2019, 12:20 AM
Here ya go meat..
https://www.wnd.com/2013/10/complaint-over-transgender-harassment-brings-threat/

https://www.infowars.com/girls-threatened-with-hate-crime-charges-for-complaining-about-transgender-bathroom-harassment/

I googled "Florence High School Colorado trangender" and also found:


Anti-LGBT Group Admits It Invented Story About Transgender Student Harassing Classmates [UPDATED]

https://thinkprogress.org/anti-lgbt-group-admits-it-invented-story-about-transgender-student-harassing-classmates-updated-d66f40c01517/

It got me curious and admittedly, Think Progress is the left wing version of Info Wars ... but there are plenty of references to the incident. Seems that the school conducted an investigation and found the accusations unsubstantiated. The girls continued accusing the transgender girl of harassment, including reports of incident on days that the transgender girl wasn't at school; at that point the school told them to knock it off or be removed from the sports teams. To me it sounds like a weird correlation to the Justice Kavenaugh hearing:

-allegations
-investigation
-no evidence
-school closed the investigation (better than the Kavenaugh) hearing
-allegations continued ... including at least one that was demonstrably false
-girls were told to stop or face discipline

I don't fall into the "all women must be believed" or "all accusers must be believed" camp because ... sometimes people make things up to advance an agenda. There was more to the story ... but finding it probably depends on if you have already decided you want to hear.

meatbringer
05-22-2019, 01:46 AM
I googled "Florence High School Colorado trangender" and also found:



It got me curious and admittedly, Think Progress is the left wing version of Info Wars ... but there are plenty of references to the incident. Seems that the school conducted an investigation and found the accusations unsubstantiated. The girls continued accusing the transgender girl of harassment, including reports of incident on days that the transgender girl wasn't at school; at that point the school told them to knock it off or be removed from the sports teams. To me it sounds like a weird correlation to the Justice Kavenaugh hearing:

-allegations
-investigation
-no evidence
-school closed the investigation (better than the Kavenaugh) hearing
-allegations continued ... including at least one that was demonstrably false
-girls were told to stop or face discipline

I don't fall into the "all women must be believed" or "all accusers must be believed" camp because ... sometimes people make things up to advance an agenda. There was more to the story ... but finding it probably depends on if you have already decided you want to hear.

Lol! Thank you, this was too good.

FLAPS
05-22-2019, 10:05 AM
... sometimes people make things up to advance an agenda.

Very annoying to even turn on the news, which I don't. However, whenever I'm at the gym and glance over to the TV with CNN (only news channel they show), the banner at the bottom of the screen is ALWAYS something against Trump. I used to actually defend some of these 'news' sources, but it's clear there's an agenda...and it's not to communicate unbiased facts. It's to influence how people vote. Sickening.

garhkal
05-22-2019, 06:50 PM
I googled "Florence High School Colorado trangender" and also found:



It got me curious and admittedly, Think Progress is the left wing version of Info Wars ... but there are plenty of references to the incident. Seems that the school conducted an investigation and found the accusations unsubstantiated. The girls continued accusing the transgender girl of harassment, including reports of incident on days that the transgender girl wasn't at school; at that point the school told them to knock it off or be removed from the sports teams. To me it sounds like a weird correlation to the Justice Kavenaugh hearing:

-allegations
-investigation
-no evidence
-school closed the investigation (better than the Kavenaugh) hearing
-allegations continued ... including at least one that was demonstrably false
-girls were told to stop or face discipline

I don't fall into the "all women must be believed" or "all accusers must be believed" camp because ... sometimes people make things up to advance an agenda. There was more to the story ... but finding it probably depends on if you have already decided you want to hear.

Interesting. IN that case i retract my statement about students have been punished or threatened.

Mjölnir
05-31-2019, 10:24 AM
Very annoying to even turn on the news, which I don't. However, whenever I'm at the gym and glance over to the TV with CNN (only news channel they show), the banner at the bottom of the screen is ALWAYS something against Trump. I used to actually defend some of these 'news' sources, but it's clear there's an agenda...and it's not to communicate unbiased facts. It's to influence how people vote. Sickening.

It is unfortunate that our media has gone so partisan (left, right ... etc) and are playing / hoping that confirmation bias prevents their audience from looking past a headline.

The girls in the Florence High School story were indeed told to stop harassing the transgender girl or face removal from sports teams. The rest of the story (that painted them as the one likely doing the / more harassing and lying) was ignored by right biased infotainment was ignored, as well as any legitimate concerns of the girls or parents by the left biased establishments.

Mjölnir
05-31-2019, 10:26 AM
Very annoying to even turn on the news, which I don't. However, whenever I'm at the gym and glance over to the TV with CNN (only news channel they show), the banner at the bottom of the screen is ALWAYS something against Trump. I used to actually defend some of these 'news' sources, but it's clear there's an agenda...and it's not to communicate unbiased facts. It's to influence how people vote. Sickening.

It is unfortunate that our media has gone so partisan (left, right ... etc) and are playing / hoping that confirmation bias prevents their audience from looking past a headline.

The girls in the Florence High School story were indeed told to stop harassing the transgender girl or face removal from sports teams. The rest of the story (that painted them as the one likely doing the / more harassing and lying) was ignored by right biased infotainment was ignored, as well as any legitimate concerns of the girls or parents by the left biased establishments.

Bos Mutus
06-03-2019, 11:21 PM
It is unfortunate that our media has gone so partisan (left, right ... etc)

When wasn't it?

Mjölnir
06-04-2019, 07:32 PM
When wasn't it?

There has always been bias; most of the original founders had opinions published in their day ... they weren’t wasn’t neutral.

What I am getting at is my thought that in our modern era and pundits have gone much further than anytime in the past and are on often tying anything / everything to an agenda. Combine that with the far too often exposed confirmation bias despite the availability of information and ... well ... here we are.

Mjölnir
06-04-2019, 07:32 PM
When wasn't it?

There has always been bias; most of the original founders had opinions published in their day ... they weren’t wasn’t neutral.

What I am getting at is my thought that in our modern era and pundits have gone much further than anytime in the past and are on often tying anything / everything to an agenda. Combine that with the far too often exposed confirmation bias despite the availability of information and ... well ... here we are.

Bos Mutus
06-04-2019, 08:11 PM
There has always been bias; most of the original founders had opinions published in their day ... they weren’t wasn’t neutral.

Yeah, with the exception of George Washington, who was nearly universally revered until later in life, the founders all endured pretty vicious attacks in the media, often from each other.


What I am getting at is my thought that in our modern era and pundits have gone much further than anytime in the past and are on often tying anything / everything to an agenda.

I'm not sure that this is anything new.


Combine that with the far too often exposed confirmation bias despite the availability of information and ... well ... here we are.

Yes, I think consuming media requires critical reading/watching/listening....detecting bias and apply a grain of salt whether the source is something you want to hear or don't want to hear. We are lacking that, for sure, again, not sure it's ever been any different.

The 24/7 news cycle of cable news maybe highlights it differently...and it's easier to compare sources in real time responding to the same input....but I think the ideal of the 'objective reporting' of facts is and pretty much always has been a myth. The media was created to advance political agendas and has probably always been used for it.

I can't say that it is much further than anytime in the past...I think most of what people declare today as the "worst in history" "most attacked in history", etc....are just kind of ignorant of history, tbh

Bos Mutus
06-04-2019, 10:52 PM
The 2016 Women's Olympic 800m.

All three medalists were intersex women. Not Trans. They were all born with vaginas, and while I haven't read the complete history on all 3, what I did read on Caster Semenya is that she has XY chromosomes (male) and testosterone 3X higher than typical female.

I think rulings continue to go back and forth on banning them, then reinstating them...or forcing them to take testosterone reducing drugs to bring their levels more inline with typical females.

This of course is a different issue than Trans athletes in that the intersex phenomenon is naturally occurring....one could argue just like Shaquille O'neal's naturally occurring 7'1" height gave him an unfair advantage is basketball, but hey that's what athletic gifts are all about.

Is intersex a natural athletic gift or should they be banned from competing? Some have predicted that if allowed to proceed, in some years time, most women's athletic champions will be intersex. Well, they went 1-2-3 in the women's 800m in the last Olympics.

I'm not in favor of favor of Trans people competing...I think that's pretty unfair. Live your life how you want, but one of the consequences is giving up your athletic career. I believe there was just an NCAA track champion that competing for 2 or 3 years as a mediocre runner on the men's team, then transitioned and became the national champion woman....just wrong.


I'm a little more confused about the intersex ones....I see the unfairness, but that it is naturally occurring makes me pause a little. God don't make mistakes, right? There are only men and women.