PDA

View Full Version : Gahrkal where you at on this one??



Rainmaker
02-18-2015, 12:56 PM
See below.... (at first glance it appears that)...Shit-Bird Colonel at DMAFB, AZ disses wounded warrior and allows Old Glory to be desecrated in Base Housing on his installation....EDIT....someone please tell Rainmaker this is a joke.


http://weaselzippers.us/213251-air-force-allows-american-flag-desecrated-with-lgbt-rainbow-to-be-flown-on-arizona-af-base-says-its-not-an-altered-u-s-flag/

Mjölnir
02-18-2015, 02:44 PM
Rainmaker, you start your own website? Nomsayin?

garhkal
02-18-2015, 08:22 PM
Where am i at on this one.. I say i would be asking what sort of lawyers that colonel supposedly consulted, in finding that, this was NOT an altered flag, then i would be asking him what the hell he was snorting!

Rollyn01
02-18-2015, 10:44 PM
Where am i at on this one.. I say i would be asking what sort of lawyers that colonel supposedly consulted, in finding that, this was NOT an altered flag, then i would be asking him what the hell he was snorting!

Probably depends on your definition of the term "altered". If the flag itself was originally made that way by design from the get-go, then no laws have been broken. If, however, it was originally a U.S. flag that was cut up and patched back together with the rainbow stripes, then the law has been violated.

garhkal
02-19-2015, 06:31 AM
Even if it was 'made that way', i thought being it was not blue and white stripes, it would be considered altered.

Stalwart
02-19-2015, 11:39 AM
Do I like it? No; I personally find it distasteful.

Do I think it should be done on base? Not really.

What do the base regulations say about flying a non U.S. flag on your government provided house? Not sure.

BT BT

A bigger question for consideration here is what do we do about symbols we don't like? legally service members do not loose all their free speech rights as a consequence of their service; nor do I think it is enforcable to place extensive free speech limitations on their families who live on post. I can agree about banning political stump sign in yards in base housing, but what about POV's on post?

-Do we ban any and all bumper stickers on POVs or just those that we (the senior enlisted or commander) don't like?

-Do we ban symbols that imply an expression of faith -- any kind of faith -- or just those we disagree with?

-Do we ban expressions of political opinion -- or just those we disagree with?

BT BT

As far that flag violating the flag code, I don't think it does ... if it is flag that is produced to look like that they didn't alter / modify an existing flag; the design was modified but not an existing flag.

Rainmaker
02-19-2015, 01:47 PM
Do I like it? No; I personally find it distasteful.

Do I think it should be done on base? Not really.

What do the base regulations say about flying a non U.S. flag on your government provided house? Not sure.

BT BT

A bigger question for consideration here is what do we do about symbols we don't like? legally service members do not loose all their free speech rights as a consequence of their service; nor do I think it is enforcable to place extensive free speech limitations on their families who live on post. I can agree about banning political stump sign in yards in base housing, but what about POV's on post?

-Do we ban any and all bumper stickers on POVs or just those that we (the senior enlisted or commander) don't like?

-Do we ban symbols that imply an expression of faith -- any kind of faith -- or just those we disagree with?

-Do we ban expressions of political opinion -- or just those we disagree with?

BT BT

As far that flag violating the flag code, I don't think it does ... if it is flag that is produced to look like that they didn't alter / modify an existing flag; the design was modified but not an existing flag.

What is this??!! Military Family Housing or a god damn Hipster Homeowner's association?

The only thing more disgraceful than someone trying to make a political statement by flying that rag in Base housing.... Is a commander not having enough nut-sack to order it taken down on his base. It's Either that or he's a Fucktard Liberal Ideologue himself and thinks it's a good idea to make a mockery of the flag and the hijacked symbol of God's promise... How bout flying the stars and bars?? Should that be ok as well?

So, you Don't lose your Constitutional rights to free speech when you sign up...um ok.... Guess that means I can conceal carry and keep my firearms in my residence too huh? Since, it's my 2nd amendment right and all...... That "flag" is offensive as hell to a lot of people including the young MAN with his legs blown off that reported it...

Fuck the JAG!!! It's Thier Legal OPINION......If Rainmaker lived in that Housing...you can guarantee that that POS rag would be ripped the fuck down.... And if/when the traitorous dual citizens bastard Lawyers at the ACLU came calling HE'D take to the god-damn airways himself and make his own political statement. Nomsayin Bitchez//RM

Stalwart
02-19-2015, 02:02 PM
The only thing more disgraceful than someone trying to make a political statement by flying that rag in Base housing.... Is the commander not having enough nut sack to order it taken down on his base. Either that or he's a Fucktard Liberal Ideologue himself...

Would you rip a flag bikini off a female at the beach? (I may not really want to know that :) -- nomsayin?)


So, you Don't lose your Constitutional rights to free speech when you sign up...um ok.... Guess that means I can conceal carry and keep my firearms in my residence too huh? Since, it's my 2nd amendment right. How bout flying the stars and bars should that be ok as well?

There is a cemetery on Fort Gordon where some WWII German POWs are buried, the cemetary flies the WWII Naval Ensign out of respect for them & many Civil War cemeterys fly the Confederate battle flag too; and people are offended by both.

You do lose some but not all of your 1st Amedment Rights. From the Supreme Court:


They do, in fact, have the same first amendment rights as their civilian brothers. They are, however, not absolute...The difference is that the military has peculiar needs and interests apart from those of the civilian community it serves, and they preclude the exercise of the right of free speech on as broad a basis as is the practice in the civilian community. No officer or man in the armed forces has a right, be it constitutional, statutory or otherwise, to publish any information (or make any statement) which will imperil his unit or its cause.

Now you/we can debate what speech would imperil the unit or cause, but that wording does seem pretty clear that we voluntarily surrender some of our free speech rights by virtue of our voluntary service.


Fuck the JAG. It's a Legal OPINION...If Rainmaker lived in that Housing that POS rag would be ripped the fuck down.... And if/when the traitorous dual citizens bastard Lawyers at the ACLU came calling HE'D take to the god-damn airways myself and make his own political statement. Nomsayin Bitchez//RM

If you start your own radio station, at least webcast that, I would love to hear it :)

Personally, I do find the thing distateful.

Rainmaker
02-19-2015, 02:11 PM
Would you rip a flag bikini off a female at the beach? (I may not really want to know that :) -- nomsayin?)



There is a cemetery on Fort Gordon where some WWII German POWs are buried, the cemetary flies the WWII Naval Ensign out of respect for them & many Civil War cemeterys fly the Confederate battle flag too; and people are offended by both.

You do lose some but not all of your 1st Amedment Rights. From the Supreme Court:



Now you/we can debate what speech would imperil the unit or cause, but that wording does seem pretty clear that we voluntarily surrender some of our free speech rights by virtue of our voluntary service.



If you start your own radio station, at least webcast that, I would love to hear it :)

Personally, I do find the thing distateful.

This I don't doubt....We have to say enough is enough....

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing..

Strength and Honor Commander!

Stalwart
02-19-2015, 02:43 PM
This I don't doubt....We have to say enough is enough...

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing..

Strength and Honor Commander!

Strength and honor indeed.

Rainmaker
02-19-2015, 06:05 PM
Rainmaker, you start your own website? Nomsayin?

No. But, you can't not love a website titled "weasel-zippers"!

sandsjames
02-19-2015, 07:37 PM
A flag is a piece of cloth. Sure, it's a symbol, but ultimately it's a home-ec project. If a piece of cloth is going to take precedence over the 1st amendment then the flag means nothing anyway. As distasteful as some may find it, I find it even more distasteful that many would look to censorship.

garhkal
02-19-2015, 08:44 PM
Would you rip a flag bikini off a female at the beach? (I may not really want to know that :) -- nomsayin?)

While i wouldn't rip a flag bikini off, i DO find those sort of things should be against the flag law.

LogDog
02-19-2015, 08:55 PM
A flag is a piece of cloth. Sure, it's a symbol, but ultimately it's a home-ec project. If a piece of cloth is going to take precedence over the 1st amendment then the flag means nothing anyway. As distasteful as some may find it, I find it even more distasteful that many would look to censorship.
I did a quick Google search for American Rainbow Flag and found out it is a commercially made flag from China available from Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Glory-Rainbow-Flag-Stripes-Embroidered/dp/B008FCUF4Q/ref=aag_m_pw_dp?ie=UTF8&m=A2XE9USDWLC44R).

The flag is printed on polyester so I seriously doubt it is in anyway shape or form an "American" Flag. Yes, it has the Blue Field of 50 stars but it doesn't have the 13 stripes the American Flag has. Seriously, how can anyone think this is close to being an American Flag?

For those who think it is inappropriate what are your opinions about those who wear American Flags bikinis, swim trunks, short, T-shirts, shirts, blankets, or politicians who drape themselves in the flag or drape it on their furniture?

garhkal
02-20-2015, 07:25 AM
For those who think it is inappropriate what are your opinions about those who wear American Flags bikinis, swim trunks, short, T-shirts, shirts, blankets, or politicians who drape themselves in the flag or drape it on their furniture?

As far as wearing it in swim trunk/bikini or the like, i am against it as i feel it is desecrating the flag. Wearing an image of it on a shirt, i feel is ok. Draping the flag around someone's shoulders is ok (As long as it does not touch the ground. Using it as a blanket?? WTF over?

Stalwart
02-20-2015, 11:32 AM
As far as wearing it in swim trunk/bikini or the like, i am against it as i feel it is desecrating the flag. Wearing an image of it on a shirt, i feel is ok. Draping the flag around someone's shoulders is ok (As long as it does not touch the ground. Using it as a blanket?? WTF over?

All of the things you describe (even wearing it on shirts) are violations of the Flag Code (based on basic interpretation of the wording.) A quick Google search of "flag apparel" shows all kinds of clothing that is made with representations of the flag. As with all things, we (collective/societal "we") tend to ignore the ones that don't bother us and focus on those that do.


The flag should not be used as "wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery", or for covering a speaker's desk, draping a platform, or for any decoration in general (exception for coffins).

sandsjames
02-20-2015, 11:51 AM
All of the things you describe (even wearing it on shirts) are violations of the Flag Code (based on basic interpretation of the wording.) A quick Google search of "flag apparel" shows all kinds of clothing that is made with representations of the flag. As with all things, we (collective/societal "we") tend to ignore the ones that don't bother us and focus on those that do.

It's a pretty silly "code", if you ask me. The majority of people who display it, even if they are doing it wrong, are displaying it for pride. Olympic athletes are probably the most prominent with this. The repeatedly drape it after an event. Even though it's against the "code", they are doing it with the best intentions. I will steal a common theme from AA on this one and say that people need to quit bitching about the small stuff.

Rainmaker
02-20-2015, 12:44 PM
I did a quick Google search for American Rainbow Flag and found out it is a commercially made flag from China available from Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Glory-Rainbow-Flag-Stripes-Embroidered/dp/B008FCUF4Q/ref=aag_m_pw_dp?ie=UTF8&m=A2XE9USDWLC44R).

The flag is printed on polyester so I seriously doubt it is in anyway shape or form an "American" Flag. Yes, it has the Blue Field of 50 stars but it doesn't have the 13 stripes the American Flag has. Seriously, how can anyone think this is close to being an American Flag?

For those who think it is inappropriate what are your opinions about those who wear American Flags bikinis, swim trunks, short, T-shirts, shirts, blankets, or politicians who drape themselves in the flag or drape it on their furniture?

Well, I guess It depends on whether or not she's fat.

Rainmaker
02-20-2015, 12:53 PM
Rainmaker don't really care about whether it's legal or not. So, If Girlfriend wants to fly her LGBT Perversion of Old Glory at Her personal residence OFF BASE in the Tuscon Barrio. Go crazy and knock yourself the fuck out. To me it's a no- brainer. It doesn't belong on base. Period.

Can't believe we've even reached a point where there would even be a question about it. I guess the Combat wounded Veteran who brought it up, should just have to suck it the fuck up in the name of "free speech" and quit bitching about the small stuff?

This is one of the major problems with this country. The citizens have allowed every decision to be hijacked by these modern-day Sadducees vs. Pharisees Lawyers that turn everything into a Letter vs. Spirit Legal debate. All this circular reasoning is further evidence of the communist brainwashing society's been subjected to.

Stalwart
02-20-2015, 01:19 PM
Rainmaker don't really care about whether it's legal or not. So, If Girlfriend wants to fly her LGBT Perversion of Old Glory at Her personal residence OFF BASE in the Tuscon Barrio. Go crazy and knock yourself the fuck out. To me it's a no- brainer. It doesn't belong on base. Period.

I understand your point, but I would ask what should people in base housing be allowed to fly?

Only an American Flag?

What if I am on an Air Force base, can I fly a Navy flag to show my service pride?

Can I fly a flag from the college I went to on game day?

What about if I am a native of Mississippi and want to fly an American flag and the flag of my home state (which some people find offensive)?

BT BT

I don't think the combat wounded guy should STFU, absoutely not. He has his opinion which he is (and has) free to express which he did and he feels the base is being selective in its interpretation of what is or is not an altered flag. I see he is offended by the similarity of the flag in question to the US flag and he cites the Flag Code; but he fails to expend the same effort towards other violations of the flag code as well.

Rainmaker
02-20-2015, 01:29 PM
I understand your point, but I would ask what should people in base housing be allowed to fly?

Only an American Flag?

What if I am on an Air Force base, can I fly a Navy flag to show my service pride?

Can I fly a flag from the college I went to on game day?

What about if I am a native of Mississippi and want to fly an American flag and the flag of my home state (which some people find offensive)?

BT BT

I don't think the combat wounded guy should STFU, absoutely not. He has his opinion which he is (and has) free to express which he did and he feels the base is being selective in its interpretation of what is or is not an altered flag. I see he is offended by the similarity of the flag in question to the US flag and he cites the Flag Code; but he fails to expend the same effort towards other violations of the flag code as well.

So, If Rainmaker were the D-MAFB Wing King for a day, Yeah he'd prolly go with American Flag, Service Flag or College Flag (on game-day). Even Your average HOA neighborhood off base has more stringent rules than that.

Don't really think the Military Installation should be the place to make your personal statements. Keep your Gay Bar flags, Confederate Battle Flags, We don't dial 911/ I love my Chihuahua signs to yourselves. used to be common sense would dictate. But, guess we've lost the ability to self police because nobody wants to get sued....willing to bet it will be spelled out soon.... Anarchy leads to Dictatorship.. NomSayin?

garhkal
02-20-2015, 08:08 PM
IT does seem like a lot of people feel too cowed, to speak their minds.

Capt Alfredo
02-21-2015, 12:20 AM
IT does seem like a lot of people feel too cowed, to speak their minds.

Except, you know, the people who fly a flag to exercise their right to free speech. Interesting how you would limit that right because you don't agree with it.

garhkal
02-21-2015, 03:31 AM
Exactly how is flying a flag though considered 'exercising' ones right to free speech? That is something i have never understood. Especially when it's considered illegal to fly a US flag upside down when you are NOT in distress.

sandsjames
02-21-2015, 03:40 AM
Exactly how is flying a flag though considered 'exercising' ones right to free speech? That is something i have never understood. Especially when it's considered illegal to fly a US flag upside down when you are NOT in distress.

It's not just speech. It's also expression and all things that go along with it.

LogDog
02-21-2015, 06:46 PM
Exactly how is flying a flag though considered 'exercising' ones right to free speech? That is something i have never understood. Especially when it's considered illegal to fly a US flag upside down when you are NOT in distress.
This is similar to the Supreme Court ruling in the late 80s that allowed the burning of the American Flag as a protection of free speech under the First Amendment. Displaying the American Flag upside down is also protected frees speech under the First Amendment as the Supreme Court ruled in Spencer vs Washington.

"We are aware that desecration of the flag is deeply offensive to many," Brennan wrote.

But, quoting from an earlier ruling, he said, "If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable."

In 1974, the Court in Spence v. Washington ruled in favor of a Washington college student who hung an American flag upside down and with a peace symbol taped to it from his apartment balcony to protest the 1970 killings of four people during anti-war protests at Kent State University by Ohio National Guardsmen.

The high court said the student had a right to display the flag as he saw fit.
http://www.firstamendmentschools.org/resources/lesson.aspx?id=14369&printer-friendly=y

Capt Alfredo
02-22-2015, 01:29 AM
Exactly how is flying a flag though considered 'exercising' ones right to free speech? That is something i have never understood. Especially when it's considered illegal to fly a US flag upside down when you are NOT in distress.

I am sincerely troubled that you don't understand this. Especially if you were/are a military member. For shame.

garhkal
02-22-2015, 03:27 AM
Its cause i see a difference between free speech and free expression.
Speech is auditory, such as speaking or singing/music. Expression deals with visual.

Capt Alfredo
02-22-2015, 03:44 AM
So you can't express yourself with words? Stop digging, man. Admit you were wrong and move on.

LogDog
02-22-2015, 04:54 AM
Its cause i see a difference between free speech and free expression.
Speech is auditory, such as speaking or singing/music. Expression deals with visual.
And yet, the Supreme Court ruled in the Citizens United decision that unlimited spending by corporations and unions is protected speech. In other words, money is speech and therefor protected. They spent millions of dollars in TV/radio ads (auditory), bumper stickers and political signs (visual) to communicate their messages. So, would, in your opinion, a bumper sticker or political sign urging voters to vote for an issue/cause you support not be considered free speech?

If a person who is mute and cannot write or draw but can communicate through expression (visual) than doesn't that constitute speech for that person. Free speech includes free expression which can include writing, dancing, acting, painting, photography, miming, etc. To limit free speech to only auditory would make a mockery of our founding documents like the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution of the United States as well as publishing books, letters to the editor, petitions, etc. because they are visual only and according to your thinking not speech.

Free speech has to include all forms of communications, not just auditory.

Mjölnir
02-22-2015, 09:20 AM
Its cause i see a difference between free speech and free expression.
Speech is auditory, such as speaking or singing/music. Expression deals with visual.

Then what you see is not in line with what the freedom of speech is, it is much more than the word that literally comes out of someone's mouth.