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garhkal
12-25-2014, 06:50 AM
So we get a slightly bigger box office budget for another "Rapture" based film, on top of the 3 other 'left behind films; Left behind (2000), Tribulation force (2002) and World at war (2005). Being i am not that religious, i actually found the first film decent (though the acting could have been a heck of a lot better), in fact it was a lot better imo than this most recent version with Nick Cage.

But it brings up some interesting points.
What would happen to all the world governments should the rapture happen?
How many people would die in the aftermath with all those planes, cars and such crashing due to their drivers/pilots/operators just vanishing?
Why was it in both versions, ALL kids seemed to be included, knowing how evil and spiteful many kids appear these days?

Absinthe Anecdote
12-25-2014, 01:59 PM
Have you ever wondered what will happen to all those Christian pets after the rapture?

Well, I have!

That's why I am proud to announce AA's post raputre pet sitting service. For a deposit of $5000 I promise to take care of your pets after the raputre.

Don't worry about me getting raptured, because I am a certified blasphemer and couldn't possibly be raptured.

Merry Christmas!

garhkal
12-25-2014, 07:50 PM
Well talking about pet sitting services, you will no longer have homeless populations, as there will be plenty of houses now opening up for habitation. Along with new jobs!

Absinthe Anecdote
12-26-2014, 02:45 PM
Well talking about pet sitting services, you will no longer have homeless populations, as there will be plenty of houses now opening up for habitation. Along with new jobs!

Unlike you, Jesus is cool with homeless people, so they are getting raptured straight into heaven with a priority of getting the very best mansions.

Since I've studied the bible extensively, I think your best shot at getting one of the bigger and more laviously appointed heavenly mansions is to donate all your earthly possessions to the poor now.

Give up everything! Give away all of your money and every possesion and go walk the earth as a child of Jesus.

Jesus actually commanded you to do this, so if you've never heard of it, you'd better start reading the bible.

BENDER56
12-26-2014, 03:11 PM
But it brings up some interesting points.
What would happen to all the world governments should the rapture happen?
How many people would die in the aftermath with all those planes, cars and such crashing due to their drivers/pilots/operators just vanishing?
Why was it in both versions, ALL kids seemed to be included, knowing how evil and spiteful many kids appear these days?

Not sure what a post-rapture world full of miscreant, scumbag heathens like me would look like, but this guy wrote a finely detailed book about what would happen to the Earth if all of the people suddenly vanished. It's a bit of an environmentalist polemic, but if you can overlook that it's a fascinating read.

http://www.worldwithoutus.com/index2.html

Measure Man
12-26-2014, 03:40 PM
Since I've studied the bible extensively, I think your best shot at getting one of the bigger and more laviously appointed heavenly mansions is to donate all your earthly possessions to the poor now.

Give up everything! Give away all of your money and every possesion and go walk the earth as a child of Jesus.

Jesus actually commanded you to do this, so if you've never heard of it, you'd better start reading the bible.

What a test of faith that would be...it would be a lot easier to believe in the sincerity of people who did this sort of thing.

10% tithe? Meh...that's more of a "social tax" that Church people pay to remain socially acceptable in the Evangelical Christian sub-culture while still being able to maintain their earthly possessions.

That is some challenge you have laid down...this is very thought provoking for me even as a non-believer who was a believer in the past...this would have been an extremely difficult test of that faith, a real "put up or shut up" moment, if you will.

Although snarky may have been your intent here...i think anyone with a desire to be "a good Christian" and who professes "true faith" would be shaken by this challenge.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-26-2014, 04:24 PM
That is some challenge you have laid down...this is very thought provoking for me even as a non-believer who was a believer in the past...this would have been an extremely difficult test of that faith, a real "put up or shut up" moment, if you will.

Although snarky may have been your intent here...i think anyone with a desire to be "a good Christian" and who professes "true faith" would be shaken by this challenge.

It isn't my challenge, those are the words of Jesus.

Mark 10:21 New International Version (NIV)

21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Measure Man
12-26-2014, 04:30 PM
It isn't my challenge, those are the words of Jesus.

Mark 10:21 New International Version (NIV)

21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Well, yeah, I know that...but, I mean who takes stuff like that seriously anymore?

Jesus didn't mean in 2015 did he? He was talking to people who might have had to sell a few goats, not a 50 inch Visio 4K Ultra. Being a good Christian in 2015 is all about being small government and keeping the sin of gays from being considered acceptable.

Okay...I got a little snarky on my own there...but when we talk about this verse nowadays, it "translates" to Jesus' true meaning as "it's okay to have stuff, just as long as you love God more than your stuff"...IOW, "As long as I say God is more important, I can keep my stuff." He doesn't really want you to prove it anymore because being successful isn't a sin.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-26-2014, 04:52 PM
Well, yeah, I know that...but, I mean who takes stuff like that seriously anymore?

Jesus didn't mean in 2015 did he? He was talking to people who might have had to sell a few goats, not a 50 inch Visio 4K Ultra. Being a good Christian in 2015 is all about being small government and keeping the sin of gays from being considered acceptable.

Okay...I got a little snarky on my own there...but when we talk about this verse nowadays, it "translates" to Jesus' true meaning as "it's okay to have stuff, just as long as you love God more than your stuff"...IOW, "As long as I say God is more important, I can keep my stuff." He doesn't really want you to prove it anymore because being successful isn't a sin.

How wrong you are. Read the entire passage and you will see you shouldn't keep your stuff, even in 2015.

Mark 10:17-25 New International Version (NIV)

17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’[d]”

20 “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”

24 The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is[e] to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

garhkal
12-26-2014, 08:35 PM
Though, with a god who lets famines, diseases, wars and the like run rampant, and does nothing to show he exists, is he really worthy of praise and devotion like that?

Absinthe Anecdote
12-26-2014, 09:08 PM
Though, with a god who lets famines, diseases, wars and the like run rampant, and does nothing to show he exists, is he really worthy of praise and devotion like that?

NO!

But people are generally too lazy or too afraid to contemplate how fucked up of a tyrant he is.

Measure Man
12-26-2014, 09:44 PM
NO!

But people are generally too lazy or too afraid to contemplate how fucked up of a tyrant he is.

Well, now, if there really was living in heaven for eternity going on...then just about anything that happens here on Earth is so minutely miniscule, it really doesn't add up to much in the grand scheme of things...

...like sure you are a F'd up tyrant when you ground your kid for 2 weeks...but you realize in the long run he'll grow up a better more fulfilled and productive person with some discipline.

You're just not seeing the big picture.

Stalwart
12-26-2014, 10:00 PM
So we get a slightly bigger box office budget for another "Rapture" based film, on top of the 3 other 'left behind films; Left behind (2000), Tribulation force (2002) and World at war (2005). Being i am not that religious, i actually found the first film decent (though the acting could have been a heck of a lot better), in fact it was a lot better imo than this most recent version with Nick Cage.

But it brings up some interesting points.
What would happen to all the world governments should the rapture happen?
How many people would die in the aftermath with all those planes, cars and such crashing due to their drivers/pilots/operators just vanishing?
Why was it in both versions, ALL kids seemed to be included, knowing how evil and spiteful many kids appear these days?

I read the books back on deployment a few years ago ... entertaining but as the books went on (definitely by the 4th one) the writing really waned, the story was drug out way too far into too many books.

The movies (2000, 2002, 2005) are in the "Meh" category. As you said, the first one was pretty good for a rental, the other two ...

As far as kids, kids are generally considered 'innocent' -- incapable of true sin -- until they reach the age of accountability a.k.a. coming of age and can make decisions ... not like "I want nuggets not a cheeseburger" kind of decision. In most western religions this is between 12 & 15, LDS doctrine puts the minimum age for baptism (child has to express desire to be baptized) at 8. Also, many religions consider mentally handicapped people whose mental capacity is childlike to be 'innocent'.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-26-2014, 10:43 PM
Well, now, if there really was living in heaven for eternity going on...then just about anything that happens here on Earth is so minutely miniscule, it really doesn't add up to much in the grand scheme of things...

Then why are we judged for our actions in this incredibly short existence against the backdrop of eternity?




...like sure you are a F'd up tyrant when you ground your kid for 2 weeks...but you realize in the long run he'll grow up a better more fulfilled and productive person with some discipline.

You're just not seeing the big picture.

Don't tempt me to crack open the Adam and Eve story. What a jerk he was for kicking them out of the Garden of Eden when it was all his fault to begin with.

They didn't know right from wrong before they ate from the tree, but yet he leaves this extremely dangerous tree in the garden.

If that was not bad enough, he let Satan go into the garden as a talking snake.

sandsjames
12-26-2014, 10:51 PM
It isn't my challenge, those are the words of Jesus.

Mark 10:21 New International Version (NIV)

21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Yep, he did say that...I guess you can look at that as a challenge to everyone, if you wish.

sandsjames
12-26-2014, 10:56 PM
Then why are we judged for our actions in this incredibly short existence against the backdrop of eternity?



Don't tempt me to crack open the Adam and Eve story. What a jerk he was for kicking them out of the Garden of Eden when it was all his fault to begin with.

They didn't know right from wrong before they ate from the tree, but yet he leaves this extremely dangerous tree in the garden.

If that was not bad enough, he let Satan go into the garden as a talking snake.

What they did know is that they were given EVERYTHING, except that one thing. Yet they weren't happy with having 99.99999% of the stuff.

"You can use my house. You can use everything in it, as much as you want. I'm more than happy to let you stay here as long as you wish, and you'll need nothing for the rest of your life. The only condition is that you do not touch the safe in the basement. That's off limits."

Too much to ask, I guess. If it was my house and they felt the need to touch the one thing I told you not to, you would have to GTFO too.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-26-2014, 11:14 PM
What they did know is that they were given EVERYTHING, except that one thing. Yet they weren't happy with having 99.99999% of the stuff.

"You can use my house. You can use everything in it, as much as you want. I'm more than happy to let you stay here as long as you wish, and you'll need nothing for the rest of your life. The only condition is that you do not touch the safe in the basement. That's off limits."

Too much to ask, I guess. If it was my house and they felt the need to touch the one thing I told you not to, you would have to GTFO too.

Crappy comparison.

Adam and Eve were innocent before eating from the tree of knowledge. They did not know right from wrong beforehand.

So God gets mad at them and punishes them?

sandsjames
12-26-2014, 11:45 PM
Crappy comparison.

Adam and Eve were innocent before eating from the tree of knowledge. They did not know right from wrong beforehand.

So God gets mad at them and punishes them?

Children are innocent and don't know the difference between right and wrong until the first time they get their but swatted when they do something they aren't supposed to.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-27-2014, 12:24 AM
Children are innocent and don't know the difference between right and wrong until the first time they get their but swatted when they do something they aren't supposed to.

Again, crappy comparison.

God did not merely swat their butts.

He wasn't teaching them a lesson either, no, he was setting them up for the fall of man.

He blamed Adam and Eve for bringing sin into the world, corrupting the entire natural world, including human nature, causing all humans to be born into original sin.

All of humanity got their "butts swatted" because this perfect God of yours didn't have enough common sense to put a fence around a dangerous tree. Better yet, he could have just removed the tree.

BENDER56
12-27-2014, 01:03 AM
Again, crappy comparison.

God did not merely swat their butts.

He wasn't teaching them a lesson either, no, he was setting them up for the fall of man.

He blamed Adam and Eve for bringing sin into the world, corrupting the entire natural world, including human nature, causing all humans to be born into original sin.

All of humanity got their "butts swatted" because this perfect God of yours didn't have enough common sense to put a fence around a dangerous tree. Better yet, he could have just removed the tree.

... or, not even made the tree to begin with.

Never much thought about it before (nor cared), but if God is truly omniscient and knows all that has happened in the past and everything that will come to pass, then he put the tree there with the full knowledge (Ha!) that those knuckleheaded humans would eat from it. (Rib-headed humans?)

Anyway, MM has a point -- the events of a single life out of the billions that have sullied this planet don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy universe. For all we know, there are trillions of planets just like Earth scattered throughout the universe and God's doing his damnedest to keep up with the goings-on in all of them. He's all like, "Earthquake, shmerthquake, just let 'em all in."

sandsjames
12-27-2014, 02:06 AM
Again, crappy comparison.

God did not merely swat their butts.

He wasn't teaching them a lesson either, no, he was setting them up for the fall of man.

He blamed Adam and Eve for bringing sin into the world, corrupting the entire natural world, including human nature, causing all humans to be born into original sin.

All of humanity got their "butts swatted" because this perfect God of yours didn't have enough common sense to put a fence around a dangerous tree. Better yet, he could have just removed the tree.

You're right. He wasn't teaching them a lesson. He was using them to teach the rest of us a lesson.

He couldn't have removed the tree. The tree was there to be eaten from. The tree was there in order for the first sin to take place.

You should be happy about that. About his plan. It's because of that you can have your pleasures. It's because of that sin that you can find the female body tempting. It's because of that you have the choice of whether or not you believe. You should really be thankful.

sandsjames
12-27-2014, 02:07 AM
... or, not even made the tree to begin with.

Never much thought about it before (nor cared), but if God is truly omniscient and knows all that has happened in the past and everything that will come to pass, then he put the tree there with the full knowledge (Ha!) that those knuckleheaded humans would eat from it. (Rib-headed humans?) Absolutely right. He is, and he did.

Rainmaker
12-27-2014, 03:17 AM
Absolutely right. He is, and he did.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear....

It's a Figurative not a Literal story.

Eve of the Bible is Adam's (Man's) own Nature.

Taken from a Rib Close to his Heart.

When a Man disobeys God's law and gives in to Nature THAT is the definition of sin.

When Adam tells God "she made me do it"

he is saying his own nature made him disobey.

We are ALL in a fallen state by our Nature.

Nature is a Bitch!

Gen 2:21 God causes Adam to fall into a deep sleep. There is no mention of Adam (Man) awakening. He "awakens" in Christ.

Wake up Bitches. Rainmaker Out.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-27-2014, 03:36 AM
You're right. He wasn't teaching them a lesson. He was using them to teach the rest of us a lesson.

He couldn't have removed the tree. The tree was there to be eaten from. The tree was there in order for the first sin to take place.

You should be happy about that. About his plan. It's because of that you can have your pleasures. It's because of that sin that you can find the female body tempting. It's because of that you have the choice of whether or not you believe. You should really be thankful.

You really should try reading the bible sometime, this is the third or forth response from you, and you still seem clueless about the tree of knowledge.

It might blow your mind to learn that there was also a tree of life in the garden. In some versions of the story, God kicked them out of Eden because he didn't want them to eat from that too and become immortal.

Anyway it is just folklore, if it were the divine word from a perfect God, it wouldn't has so many flaws in the story.

If I pretend he is real, I say, fuck him and his jacked up plan. He gives me a choice of believing in him or not, yet he is going to judge me for how I navigated the little funhouse that he created.

I'm judging him on judgement day.

sandsjames
12-27-2014, 10:44 AM
I'm judging him on judgement day.
Good luck with that.

garhkal
12-27-2014, 08:38 PM
Then why are we judged for our actions in this incredibly short existence against the backdrop of eternity?



Don't tempt me to crack open the Adam and Eve story. What a jerk he was for kicking them out of the Garden of Eden when it was all his fault to begin with.

They didn't know right from wrong before they ate from the tree, but yet he leaves this extremely dangerous tree in the garden.

My thoughts exactly. He expects us to show this 'faith in him' yet does NOTHING that i see worthy of it.

sandsjames
12-27-2014, 09:11 PM
My thoughts exactly. He expects us to show this 'faith in him' yet does NOTHING that i see worthy of it.

If someone believes, then they believe that everything around us is provided by God. I don't see that as "nothing".

Absinthe Anecdote
12-28-2014, 01:37 AM
If someone believes, then they believe that everything around us is provided by God. I don't see that as "nothing".

Just because someone believes that everything around us is provided by leprechauns, doesn't make it anymore credible for those of us with critical thinking skills.

The Christian God is in hiding, perhaps he is with the leprechauns.

Rainmaker
12-28-2014, 04:13 AM
What do you get when you cross a Jehova's Witness with an atheist?


Someone who knocks on your door for no apparent reason.

BENDER56
12-29-2014, 12:52 AM
Did ya hear about the dyslexic Jehova's Witness? He went door to door spreading the word of Dog.

Rainmaker
12-30-2014, 03:38 PM
Just because someone believes that everything around us is provided by leprechauns, doesn't make it anymore credible for those of us with critical thinking skills.

The Christian God is in hiding, perhaps he is with the leprechauns.

That'd be like a fish in the ocean saying that because, it doesn't know were the water comes from it doesn't exit.

E4RUMOR
01-02-2015, 02:10 AM
I don't play the hypothetical in conversations like this. Given the attributes and abilities of God, I think it's asinine for any individual with infinitesimally limited knowledge (of Human knowledge, let alone Supernatural knowledge) to declare their right to judge the God of the Universe. Since God created the Universe, and all in it, He alone possesses the right to do as He pleases with His creation, and is not subject to judgment from the very creation He brought into existence.

If one takes into consideration God sees the "Big Picture", and we only see a miniscule portion of said picture, it truly is absurd to make a judgment call of the portrait without seeing it in its entirety. Furthermore, just because the whole picture is not made known to you does not mean it's a horrible portrait.

Conjecture is a failure as well - Just because the character and actions of God do not line up with what one thinks God should be and do does not merit dismissal of His existence completely. That's simply a case of personal preference. Frankly, it's a ridiculous notion, because everyone has a different preference.

Without evil, you wouldn't know what was righteous. Without pain, you wouldn't know well-being. Without sadness, you wouldn't know joy. All of the good you experience in life would simply be words without an emotional recognition and fulfillment behind them.

The God of the universe doesn't need to prove His existence to His Creation or Mankind. We apparently have someone in this thread who has studied the Bible thoroughly and extensively. Perhaps he can explain Romans 1:20 to us.

Maybe those who read Job chapter 38 can glean a message from the God of the Universe. Even the fourth verse starts off quite forward: "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the Earth? Tell me if you have understanding?"

Everything God does is glorification to Himself. He is worthy of respect, glory, and honor. As your Creator, He afforded you the opportunity to be in existence. Even with the foreknowledge that some of you would hate Him till you breathe your last breath.

Whether you like it or not, you are, in fact, playing by His rules, and ultimately He's going to come out on top. Anyone who says they are going to judge someone with the power and knowledge He possesses, and demand an explanation from Him, is in for a rude awakening. No, you'll be bowing before the Creator of the universe in fear and awe, confessing Jesus Christ is Lord.

Many people overlook the message of salvation and the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross for redemption of sin. They focus on God and His righteous wrath, and yet dismiss the redemptive plan that saves us from it. It's not how they would do things, so in their mind, God is wrong. In their mind, God is at fault.

Rusty Jones
01-02-2015, 05:01 AM
I don't play the hypothetical in conversations like this. Given the attributes and abilities of God, I think it's asinine for any individual with infinitesimally limited knowledge (of Human knowledge, let alone Supernatural knowledge) to declare their right to judge the God of the Universe. Since God created the Universe, and all in it, He alone possesses the right to do as He pleases with His creation, and is not subject to judgment from the very creation He brought into existence.

If one takes into consideration God sees the "Big Picture", and we only see a miniscule portion of said picture, it truly is absurd to make a judgment call of the portrait without seeing it in its entirety. Furthermore, just because the whole picture is not made known to you does not mean it's a horrible portrait.

Conjecture is a failure as well - Just because the character and actions of God do not line up with what one thinks God should be and do does not merit dismissal of His existence completely. That's simply a case of personal preference. Frankly, it's a ridiculous notion, because everyone has a different preference.

Without evil, you wouldn't know what was righteous. Without pain, you wouldn't know well-being. Without sadness, you wouldn't know joy. All of the good you experience in life would simply be words without an emotional recognition and fulfillment behind them.

The God of the universe doesn't need to prove His existence to His Creation or Mankind. We apparently have someone in this thread who has studied the Bible thoroughly and extensively. Perhaps he can explain Romans 1:20 to us.

Maybe those who read Job chapter 38 can glean a message from the God of the Universe. Even the fourth verse starts off quite forward: "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the Earth? Tell me if you have understanding?"

Everything God does is glorification to Himself. He is worthy of respect, glory, and honor. As your Creator, He afforded you the opportunity to be in existence. Even with the foreknowledge that some of you would hate Him till you breathe your last breath.

Whether you like it or not, you are, in fact, playing by His rules, and ultimately He's going to come out on top. Anyone who says they are going to judge someone with the power and knowledge He possesses, and demand an explanation from Him, is in for a rude awakening. No, you'll be bowing before the Creator of the universe in fear and awe, confessing Jesus Christ is Lord.

Many people overlook the message of salvation and the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross for redemption of sin. They focus on God and His righteous wrath, and yet dismiss the redemptive plan that saves us from it. It's not how they would do things, so in their mind, God is wrong. In their mind, God is at fault.

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TJMAC77SP
01-02-2015, 12:53 PM
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from the Guidelines:

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Rusty, You've thrown this particular troll bait before and it didn't fair so well. Got any new ideas.

BTW: Do I have to mention the homoerotic thing again?

Rusty Jones
01-02-2015, 01:12 PM
Rusty, You've thrown this particular troll bait before and it didn't fair so well. Got any new ideas.

BTW: Do I have to mention the homoerotic thing again?

What's the matter, bro? Mad because you can't join in and get between "Jesus" and "Christ?"

TJMAC77SP
01-02-2015, 01:19 PM
What's the matter, bro? Mad because you can't join in and get between "Jesus" and "Christ?"

See, now you are even using the same bullshit responses you did last time.....Bro.

Come on. Let's put forth a little effort.

Besides, don't forget........I'm not Christian enough to be mad at that stuff. Don't you remember?

((I still chuckle over that thread))

Rusty Jones
01-02-2015, 01:25 PM
See, now you are even using the same bullshit responses you did last time.....Bro.

Come on. Let's put forth a little effort.

Besides, don't forget........I'm not Christian enough to be mad at that stuff. Don't you remember?

((I still chuckle over that thread))

Quit acting like you're not butt hurt by this meme, chump - you know damned well that you are. That's why you're here bitching about this meme. That's also why you're going to stay here going back and forth with me over it. You're not fooling anyone but yourself.

TJMAC77SP
01-02-2015, 01:33 PM
Quit acting like you're not butt hurt by this meme, chump - you know damned well that you are. That's why you're here bitching about this meme. That's also why you're going to stay here going back and forth with me over it. You're not fooling anyone but yourself.

Butt hurt......I get it.

I am not bitching about the meme only your total loss but to use anything related to male homosexual acts when attempting to insult someone. You posted that in response to a reasonable post and it adds (typically) no value to the discussion other than to troll bait. You know that, I know that and probably every reader of the MTF sees the same thing.

If you are going to be a troll, and I know you will, at least be original and try not to let your subconscious drive your humor. Not all of us, and probably very few of us, are afraid of gay people. Or, whatever it is that you feel for gay people.

So..............am I back to being a fundamentalist Christian?

Funny stuff but sometimes just too easy.

Rusty Jones
01-02-2015, 01:42 PM
Butt hurt......I get it.

I am not bitching about the meme only your total loss but to use anything related to male homosexual acts when attempting to insult someone. You posted that in response to a reasonable post and it adds (typically) no value to the discussion other than to troll bait. You know that, I know that and probably every reader of the MTF sees the same thing.

If you are going to be a troll, and I know you will, at least be original and try not to let your subconscious drive your humor. Not all of us, and probably very few of us, are afraid of gay people. Or, whatever it is that you feel for gay people.

So..............am I back to being a fundamentalist Christian?

Funny stuff but sometimes just too easy.

Ah, so this is all about you "critiquing" my posts from an objective standpoint?

Bullshit, because you're pretty damned selective when it comes to that.

You can attempt to throw the homosexuality back on me if you want because, quite frankly, I don't give two shits.

The reason that you're here pissing and moaning is because, contrary to what you're saying, my "trolling" - which you claim to be ineffective - did shake you. Wanna prove me wrong? Then walk away.

Mcjohn1118
01-02-2015, 01:45 PM
I don't play the hypothetical in conversations like this. Given the attributes and abilities of God, I think it's asinine for any individual with infinitesimally limited knowledge (of Human knowledge, let alone Supernatural knowledge) to declare their right to judge the God of the Universe. Since God created the Universe, and all in it, He alone possesses the right to do as He pleases with His creation, and is not subject to judgment from the very creation He brought into existence.

If one takes into consideration God sees the "Big Picture", and we only see a miniscule portion of said picture, it truly is absurd to make a judgment call of the portrait without seeing it in its entirety. Furthermore, just because the whole picture is not made known to you does not mean it's a horrible portrait.

Conjecture is a failure as well - Just because the character and actions of God do not line up with what one thinks God should be and do does not merit dismissal of His existence completely. That's simply a case of personal preference. Frankly, it's a ridiculous notion, because everyone has a different preference.

Without evil, you wouldn't know what was righteous. Without pain, you wouldn't know well-being. Without sadness, you wouldn't know joy. All of the good you experience in life would simply be words without an emotional recognition and fulfillment behind them.

The God of the universe doesn't need to prove His existence to His Creation or Mankind. We apparently have someone in this thread who has studied the Bible thoroughly and extensively. Perhaps he can explain Romans 1:20 to us.

Maybe those who read Job chapter 38 can glean a message from the God of the Universe. Even the fourth verse starts off quite forward: "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the Earth? Tell me if you have understanding?"

Everything God does is glorification to Himself. He is worthy of respect, glory, and honor. As your Creator, He afforded you the opportunity to be in existence. Even with the foreknowledge that some of you would hate Him till you breathe your last breath.

Whether you like it or not, you are, in fact, playing by His rules, and ultimately He's going to come out on top. Anyone who says they are going to judge someone with the power and knowledge He possesses, and demand an explanation from Him, is in for a rude awakening. No, you'll be bowing before the Creator of the universe in fear and awe, confessing Jesus Christ is Lord.

Many people overlook the message of salvation and the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross for redemption of sin. They focus on God and His righteous wrath, and yet dismiss the redemptive plan that saves us from it. It's not how they would do things, so in their mind, God is wrong. In their mind, God is at fault.

E4RUMOR...I was raised Catholic and for 35 years I was faithful. I now have a different mind-set; not totally atheist but more like agnostic. There may be a higher being, there may be nothing. Anyway, while you don't want to get into hypotheticals, that's what faith is really. It is the emphatic beief in something that there is no scientific or factual proof. I think we will agree to disagree on this one. Some I have a few questions for you to think about and if you wish, maybe you can provide your answers. I am looking for serious debate; no name calling.
1. You state that God created the universe. OK, cool. This universe of ours is infinite and to the human mind we can't fathom how big it is. Do you believe there are other planets that have life on them? If so, there's an issue with Christianity that these other planets and life-forms may have. If Jesus was sent here to save everyone...how can the other life forms be saved? Jesus was put here as man...not anywhere else since the Bible says so. So, then why would God create all these other life-forms and not want them saved in the Kingdom of Heaven as well?
2. Many claim the greatest gift (after Jesus) God gave man was free will? Do you agree? If you agree, how "free" is this free will? For example, according to scripture, Jesus said to Judas (and I'm paraphraing) "Do what you must do." Now we both know that was during the last Passover when Jesus sent Judas away to betray him. So, when the Son of God (and to Catholics who believe Jesus is God himself) tells you to do something, do you really have free-will?
3. Linguistically speaking, scholars have proven that the original books of the gospels came from first oral traditions for about 40 years, then written in Aramaic, Greek, German, Latin, etc. In the arab world, the term "Bar" means "son of" so if your name is Yeshua Bar Josef, you are Joshua, son of Joseph. We also know that "Abba" is a term for "Father." So, during the sentencing of death, when the crowd yells "Give us Barabbas," many today feel they were claiming they wanted the criminal named Barabas. However, what if the original story and wrods were separated. What is they yelled "Give us Bar Abbas?" This now means, "Give us the son of the father," or simply, Son of God.

TJMAC77SP
01-02-2015, 01:56 PM
Ah, so this is all about you "critiquing" my posts from an objective standpoint?

Bullshit, because you're pretty damned selective when it comes to that.

You can attempt to throw the homosexuality back on me if you want because, quite frankly, I don't give two shits.

The reason that you're here pissing and moaning is because, contrary to what you're saying, my "trolling" - which you claim to be ineffective - did shake you. Wanna prove me wrong? Then walk away.

So in your twisted logic if I respond to your bullshit then I am "butt hurt" about your unoriginal post? Your post "shook me"? Is that the basis of your assertion?

Could it be (see if this sounds familiar).............

"I am not bitching about the meme only your total loss but to use anything related to male homosexual acts when attempting to insult someone. You posted that in response to a reasonable post and it adds (typically) no value to the discussion other than to troll bait. You know that, I know that and probably every reader of the MTF sees the same thing.

If you are going to be a troll, and I know you will, at least be original and try not to let your subconscious drive your humor. Not all of us, and probably very few of us, are afraid of gay people. Or, whatever it is that you feel for gay people.

So..............am I back to being a fundamentalist Christian? "


You have even recycled the same frapping meme!!

And.........I never mentioned being objective and I am certainly not being selective. I find just about everything you post to be inane, without much original thought (there are rare exceptions). I think you are an angry bigot and homophobe.

Rusty Jones
01-02-2015, 02:04 PM
So in your twisted logic if I respond to your bullshit then I am "butt hurt" about your unoriginal post? Your post "shook me"? Is that the basis of your assertion?

Could it be (see if this sounds familiar).............

"I am not bitching about the meme only your total loss but to use anything related to male homosexual acts when attempting to insult someone. You posted that in response to a reasonable post and it adds (typically) no value to the discussion other than to troll bait. You know that, I know that and probably every reader of the MTF sees the same thing.

If you are going to be a troll, and I know you will, at least be original and try not to let your subconscious drive your humor. Not all of us, and probably very few of us, are afraid of gay people. Or, whatever it is that you feel for gay people.

So..............am I back to being a fundamentalist Christian? "


You have even recycled the same frapping meme!!

And.........I never mentioned being objective and I am certainly not being selective. I find just about everything you post to be inane, without much original thought (there are rare exceptions). I think you are an angry bigot and homophobe.

All I did was post a meme - a meme that has been around for years, that I didn't create. A meme that you've likely seen many times before. And... it triggered and angry response from you. Yes, you're butt hurt. Quit being in denial, chump - you're butt hurt. That's why you're still here. You're here because you're butt hurt, and because you're trying to prove that you're not... and you're failing.

Whether my posts are original, inane, or whatever... they've got you feeling a certain way, and they've got you talking. So if I'm "trolling," the only objective that even matters has already been met.

I'm going to say this on my use of "homoeroticism" - I have nothing against homosexuality, but other people do - that's why they're offended by it. Case in point - YOU.

TJMAC77SP
01-02-2015, 02:16 PM
All I did was post a meme - a meme that has been around for years, that I didn't create. A meme that you've likely seen many times before. And... it triggered and angry response from you. Yes, you're butt hurt. Quit being in denial, chump - you're butt hurt. That's why you're still here. You're here because you're butt hurt, and because you're trying to prove that you're not... and you're failing.

Whether my posts are original, inane, or whatever... they've got you feeling a certain way, and they've got you talking. So if I'm "trolling," the only objective that even matters has already been met.

I'm going to say this on my use of "homoeroticism" - I have nothing against homosexuality, but other people do - that's why they're offended by it. Case in point - YOU.

I have seen the meme before........you posted it in another attempt to get a faithful person to react. It didn't work then and it didn't work now. The only anger (and that is a big stretch of the word) is over your bullshit.

As to which one of us gets angry about homosexuality (I had to pause a moment to stop laughing) I invite MTF readers to read this tripe........

http://forums.militarytimes.com/showthread.php/8909-Marine-held-in-phillipines-after-death-of-transgendered-person?p=348018&viewfull=1#post348018

A whole thread of fear.

I do appreciate you admitting to trolling. That's the first step.

Rusty Jones
01-02-2015, 02:21 PM
I have seen the meme before........you posted it in another attempt to get a faithful person to react. It didn't work then and it didn't work now. The only anger (and that is a big stretch of the word) is over your bullshit.

Nope, it's working now. That's why you're here. Again, quit being in denial.


As to which one of us gets angry about homosexuality (I had to pause a moment to stop laughing) I invite MTF readers to read this tripe........

http://forums.militarytimes.com/showthread.php/8909-Marine-held-in-phillipines-after-death-of-transgendered-person?p=348018&viewfull=1#post348018

A whole thread of fear.

I do appreciate you admitting to trolling. That's the first step.

Holy shit, TJ is trying to rally all of MTF against me! Only, it's not going to work. Right now, as we can see, you're the only person here who even gives two shits about this meme. E4RUMOR likely does too, and maybe SJ might - even if it's to a lesser extent.

I'm sure that I can speak for a few others here when I say that the "Jesus Fucking Christ" meme is quite humorous - especially when you look at how Christians react to it. Christians like you, TJ.

Rusty Jones
01-02-2015, 02:24 PM
[Image removed]

from the Guidelines:

Graphic sexual language and images
Graphic sexual language and images are not acceptable. Find another site for that. Posts will be removed with posting privileges suspended should your word choice and/or photos become too graphic. Social norms are the accepted guideline here, but as with all things in these forums, we have the final say.

Hey! It wasn't a graphic sexual image! Whoever created that image made sure that no genitalia was shown!

TJMAC77SP
01-02-2015, 02:25 PM
Nope, it's working now. That's why you're here. Again, quit being in denial.



Holy shit, TJ is trying to rally all of MTF against me! Only, it's not going to work. Right now, as we can see, you're the only person here who even gives two shits about this meme. E4RUMOR likely does too, and maybe SJ might - even if it's to a lesser extent.

I'm sure that I can speak for a few others here when I say that the "Jesus Fucking Christ" meme is quite humorous - especially when you look at how Christians react to it. Christians like you, TJ.

So I am back to being a Christian?

Great, another few pages and I won't be Christian enough. That thread was hilarious the first time but will probably one elicit a chuckle this time.

The meme is funny but when it is posted ONLY to insult an MTF poster and to elicit an angry response it is trolling and bullshit........hence me saying so.

Rusty Jones
01-02-2015, 02:28 PM
So I am back to being a Christian?

Great, another few pages and I won't be Christian enough. That thread was hilarious the first time but will probably one elicit a chuckle this time.

I never said you weren't Christian or Christian enough. You've got me confused with someone else.


The meme is funny but when it is posted ONLY to insult an MTF poster and to elicit an angry response it is trolling and bullshit........hence me saying so.

And I should care that you think it's trolling and bullshit, why? Do you want me to start seeking approval from you before I post anything? You think I'm posting here to try to please you?

Bitch, please.

TJMAC77SP
01-02-2015, 02:35 PM
I never said you weren't Christian or Christian enough. You've got me confused with someone else.



And I should care that you think it's trolling and bullshit, why? Do you want me to start seeking approval from you before I post anything? You think I'm posting here to try to please you?

Bitch, please.


I don't have the time to censor your bullshit but I try to make the time to accurately label it for what it is.

Rusty Jones
01-02-2015, 02:36 PM
I don't have the time to censor your bullshit but I try to make the time to accurately label it for what it is.

Ah yes, so TJ thinks that a particular post is "bullshit." So fucking what?

TJMAC77SP
01-02-2015, 02:39 PM
Ah yes, so TJ thinks that a particular post is "bullshit." So fucking what?

Which of us is mad now..................Bro

Mjölnir
01-02-2015, 02:42 PM
As a reminder, from the Community Guidelines:

Disruption
You're welcome to voice your opinion here, and it would be a boring place if you didn't. But if you disagree with a comment that's been made, keep it civil. Posts designed to instigate or disrupt discussions or that contain offensive material may be removed, along with other messages posted in response. Please don't use obscene or offensive language, hate speech or engage in personal attacks of other members. Bashing services on branch-specific forums or any forum is not acceptable within our communities. Posts made with the intent to belittle, harass or otherwise disrupt a community will be removed. Repeated instances of such harassment and disruption may result in a revocation of posting privileges.

http://media.giphy.com/media/fzZaLJjnNscKs/giphy.gif

Rusty Jones
01-02-2015, 02:46 PM
Which of us is mad now..................Bro

You, bud. Because what you call "bullshit" - you know, the stuff that pisses you off - I've got plenty more of, and it won't stop until the mods end it.

Mjölnir
01-02-2015, 02:48 PM
You, bud. Because what you call "bullshit" - you know, the stuff that pisses you off - I've got plenty more of, and it won't stop until the mods end it.

Very well.

http://images.bidnessetc.com/content/uploads/images/source3/thor_gif_by_bookmaniac2013-d3ghexl-e16e74a63567ecb44ade5c87002bb1d9.gif

TJMAC77SP
01-02-2015, 02:49 PM
You, bud. Because what you call "bullshit" - you know, the stuff that pisses you off - I've got plenty more of, and it won't stop until the mods end it.

You sound angry. Take a moment. Go have a smoke or a cup of coffee.

BTW: Just to refresh your memory.

http://forums.militarytimes.com/showthread.php/8972-Islam-A-religion-of-Peace-Part-of-Multiculturalism?p=349304&viewfull=1#post349304

Absinthe Anecdote
01-02-2015, 03:00 PM
I don't play the hypothetical in conversations like this.

Yet here you are, joining in the conversation and asking specific questions. I'm going to give you the benefit of doubt and assume that you meant to say, "I don't usually play in hypothetical conversations like this."




Given the attributes and abilities of God, I think it's asinine for any individual with infinitesimally limited knowledge (of Human knowledge, let alone Supernatural knowledge) to declare their right to judge the God of the Universe. Since God created the Universe, and all in it, He alone possesses the right to do as He pleases with His creation, and is not subject to judgment from the very creation He brought into existence.

It would appear that God does not share your opinion. Because here I am, along with millions of other atheists who make a judgement call on God.

Not only that, you as his follower have already judged God worthy of being worshipped.

Perhaps what you meant to say is he is not subject to our wrath.

However, I think you might be talking about judging God in the sense of accusing him of being murderous, and a childish lunkhead.

Hypothetically, I am doing just that. If he is real, and really is like what the Christian bible purports him to be, yes I judge him, and I openly rebel against him.

I also rebel against Satan, and reject him and his nonsense too.

I resent being created and forced into this squabble of theirs. I stand on neither side, and choose to create my own side.

You go right ahead and drop to your knees and grovel, spout your sniveling prayers at his feet.

I am going to fight both those bastards, neither one has earned my respect. I am not impressed by God's awesome power, and I really do not care if he squashes me on judgement day.

Someone needs to shout at that big bully, and I am just the one to do it.

Why don't you sack up? Grow a set of balls and quit kissing his feet. It seems to me that you are only impressed by God's power, and are willing to worship him on that alone.

That is truly despicable in my book, and I doubt it gains you any admiration or respect from this all-powerful entity.



If one takes into consideration God sees the "Big Picture", and we only see a miniscule portion of said picture, it truly is absurd to make a judgment call of the portrait without seeing it in its entirety. Furthermore, just because the whole picture is not made known to you does not mean it's a horrible portrait.

I submit to you that you can see more of the big picture of the Christian God if you studied the bible and the history of the Christian Church. There is far more of the picture available to you, step back and look at it in context.

If you did, you'd see that God is a creation of man. Man created God.

However, since we're are speaking under the hypothesis that God created man, I say it is truly absurd to put your faith in Christianity, or any other faith based religion.

Faith is not virtuous, far from it, faith is the exact opposite from having high moral standards.

Worshiping a God that you admittedly know very little about, or can't truly understand is not something you should be proud of.

You are in awe of his power, and you drop to your knees because of the promise of reward.

That is truly despicable and weak.

If a God did create you, he gave you a brain, he gave you courage, he gave you the power to question, and the power to learn.

It is you that disrespects God by not using these gifts he gave you.

By dropping to your knees so easily at the sound of a preacher's voice, and the words of ancient men, you truly disrespect God.

You have never heard the voice of God, you have never read the undisputed word of God neither.

You only dropped to your knees at the sound of the first preacher you encountered, you have not heard God speak.

In your heart, you know this to be true, yet there you are groveling and praying to something that you (by your own admission) don't know the nature of.

Faith is not a virtue, it is a sellout of your intelligence to the promise of reward.

Are you so cowardly that you fear death so much that you'll listen to the promises of ancient folk lore?



Conjecture is a failure as well - Just because the character and actions of God do not line up with what one thinks God should be and do does not merit dismissal of His existence completely. That's simply a case of personal preference. Frankly, it's a ridiculous notion, because everyone has a different preference.


So your solution to this is to simply follow the first preacher that you encounter without question.

When you find parts of these ancient texts hard to understand, what do you do? You blame your own inadequacies, then call yourself virtuous for having blind faith.

Talk about ridiculous.



Without evil, you wouldn't know what was righteous. Without pain, you wouldn't know well-being. Without sadness, you wouldn't know joy. All of the good you experience in life would simply be words without an emotional recognition and fulfillment behind them.

Fair enough. Since there is no evil, pain, or sadness in the Christian heaven, then I guess heaven is a joyless place.

You do know that the Hebrew God promised no heaven, right? You just lived your life, and that was it.

The promise of heaven came about with the Christian Church. Your original God, the God of Moses and of Abraham made no such promises.

Not all of God's chosen people converted to Christianity.

Whoops, looks like you are going to have to make a judgement call on which "sacred word" of God to follow.



The God of the universe doesn't need to prove His existence to His Creation or Mankind. We apparently have someone in this thread who has studied the Bible thoroughly and extensively. Perhaps he can explain Romans 1:20 to us.

Romans 1:20 is a verse in a larger passage that runs from Romans 1:18-32; to fully comprehend 1:20, I recommend reading the entire passage.

Here is 1:18-22, but I recommend reading the entire passage, this post is a bit too long with all of it included. But you can find the rest of it easily.


Romans 1:18-22 New International Version (NIV)

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.



Romans 1:20 at its simplest level makes the claim that God's power, nature, and even his "invisible qualities" are plain to see.

In other words, look around and see his mighty power in everything, then bow down and glorify God because you have no excuse not to.


Maybe those who read Job chapter 38 can glean a message from the God of the Universe. Even the fourth verse starts off quite forward: "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the Earth? Tell me if you have understanding?"

The book of Job is one of my favorites of the bible, chapter 38 is where God speaks to Job.

I'd love to discuss the entire story of Job with you, but this post is getting incredibly long.

Perhaps another time? I hope so, I love that story and just read it again.




Everything God does is glorification to Himself. He is worthy of respect, glory, and honor. As your Creator, He afforded you the opportunity to be in existence. Even with the foreknowledge that some of you would hate Him till you breathe your last breath.

Whether you like it or not, you are, in fact, playing by His rules, and ultimately He's going to come out on top. Anyone who says they are going to judge someone with the power and knowledge He possesses, and demand an explanation from Him, is in for a rude awakening. No, you'll be bowing before the Creator of the universe in fear and awe, confessing Jesus Christ is Lord.

Many people overlook the message of salvation and the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross for redemption of sin. They focus on God and His righteous wrath, and yet dismiss the redemptive plan that saves us from it. It's not how they would do things, so in their mind, God is wrong. In their mind, God is at fault.

With the story of Job fresh in my mind, I respond to your last thought with this.

There is no God, but if I pretend the God of this ancient story is real, I choose to rebel and fight him.

It does not matter if I loose, I defy him in the face of his wrath for I deem him unjust, and I resent him for dragging me into this game of his.

I do not want to be his toy, I do not want to be made a servant of his. If I am so insignificant, then my respect and praise of him must also be insignificant.

Job was a faithful servant of God.

Yet God and Satan trifled with Job as if he were a plaything for their amusement.

I don't care if you are the creator of the universe, you do not get my praise for doing shit like that to people.

Absinthe Anecdote
01-02-2015, 03:42 PM
So I am back to being a Christian?

Great, another few pages and I won't be Christian enough. That thread was hilarious the first time but will probably one elicit a chuckle this time.

The meme is funny but when it is posted ONLY to insult an MTF poster and to elicit an angry response it is trolling and bullshit........hence me saying so.

I don't know why you are jumping on Rusty about that. I think it was me that accused you, SJ and a few others of not really being Christians.

The reason I did so was because of the way you described how you practiced your faith. You admittedly reject whole parts of Christian doctrine, and don't go to church anymore.

If I am remembering the same thread, I think I said you sounded more like a Deist than a Christian.

If a person believes that God created the universe, but that he doesn't intervene in it anymore, then this is a very accurate assessment.

If a person believes in Christ, but they no longer subscribe to a particular Christian denomination, then it is a little more difficult, to determine what they are. However, I have no doubt saying that there are entire legions of church going Christians that would readily denounce them as not true Christians.

If I remember correctly, you are a non practicing Catholic. I would say that your status as a Christian would be called into question by many.

I don't know why you are chuckling as if someone said something amusing, or even unusual. The entire Prodestant division of Christainity looks at you in disdain just for being Catholic.

TJMAC77SP
01-02-2015, 05:12 PM
I don't know why you are jumping on Rusty about that. I think it was me that accused you, SJ and a few others of not really being Christians.

The reason I did so was because of the way you described how you practiced your faith. You admittedly reject whole parts of Christian doctrine, and don't go to church anymore.

If I am remembering the same thread, I think I said you sounded more like a Deist than a Christian.

If a person believes that God created the universe, but that he doesn't intervene in it anymore, then this is a very accurate assessment.

If a person believes in Christ, but they no longer subscribe to a particular Christian denomination, then it is a little more difficult, to determine what they are. However, I have no doubt saying that there are entire legions of church going Christians that would readily denounce them as not true Christians.

If I remember correctly, you are a non practicing Catholic. I would say that your status as a Christian would be called into question by many.

I don't know why you are chuckling as if someone said something amusing, or even unusual. The entire Prodestant division of Christainity looks at you in disdain just for being Catholic.

Another Carnac the Magnificent moment.

Couple of points. I wasn't 'jumping' on Rusty, merely pointing out his once again going into a corner which sounds absurd. Secondly, Rusty was involved in the beginning of the ludicrous discussion.

I was chuckling (and I am pretty sure you know this) because I said at the beginning and repeatedly that I carry the title of Christian only as a vestige of my upbringing and in very few ways practice that religion, despite being labeled as such and even a vehement Christian when that label fits the narrative. I am fairly comfortable in stating that this is the position of a vast majority of Americans. Despite this you (and MM) wanted to tell me that I can't do this. That I am not Christian enough. Something which flies in the face of many comments I have received when it was perceived I was defending Christianity (although having stated time and time again I take no position on religion other than to defend the rights of others to practice their faith).

What one denomination thinks of the other is in no way relevant to that discussion and is an obvious straw man argument since I have taken no position on the validity of any denomination of Christianity (or any religion for that matter) and it in no way reflects on the validity of me calling myself a Christian (which was the point of the original discussion).

It was a fairly silly discussion then and would be again now.

Again, I am pretty sure you know that.

Absinthe Anecdote
01-02-2015, 05:39 PM
Another Carnac the Magnificent moment.

Couple of points. I wasn't 'jumping' on Rusty, merely pointing out his once again going into a corner which sounds absurd. Secondly, Rusty was involved in the beginning of the ludicrous discussion.

I was chuckling (and I am pretty sure you know this) because I said at the beginning and repeatedly that I carry the title of Christian only as a vestige of my upbringing and in very little ways practice that religion, despite being labeled as such and even a vehement Christian when that label fits the narrative. I am fairly comfortable in stating that this is the position of a vast majority of Americans.

What one denomination thinks of the other is in no way relevant to that discussion and is an obvious straw man argument since I have taken no position on the validity of any denomination of Christianity (or any religion for that matter).

It was a fairly silly discussion then and would be again now.

Again, I am pretty sure you know that.

Then why even point it out three times in one day?

You just admitted that you are vestigial Christian at best, so why is it absurd when someone else makes that observation?

Plus, I don't see how that puts Rusty in a corner, all he did was post a picture of Jesus fucking Christ.

Now, I'll agree with you that Rusty has some gay issues. It is very obvious that he has played with ladyboys on one of his port visits and is ashamed of it. That's why he wants to promote the idea that it is possible to be duped into having intercourse with one.

TJMAC77SP
01-02-2015, 05:54 PM
Then why even point it out three times in one day?

You just admitted that you are vestigial Christian at best, so why is it absurd when someone else makes that observation?

Plus, I don't see how that puts Rusty in a corner, all he did was post a picture of Jesus fucking Christ.

Now, I'll agree with you that Rusty has some gay issues. It is very obvious that he has played with ladyboys on one of his port visits and is ashamed of it. That's why he wants to promote the idea that it is possible to be duped into having intercourse with one.

Point out what three times?

Come on let's have a little honest back and forth here.

Someone paints me with a brush as a diehard Christian. I state that isn't true and am (like countless others) a Christian pretty much in name only. Then there are multiple pages of why I shouldn't call myself a Christian (add to that no mention of the previous and repeated characterization of me being a diehard Christian). I see that as absurd. If I were arguing a validity of the faith or scriptures, fine, that would make sense. Otherwise, absurd.

His meme has nothing to do with the corner he backed himself into. Rusty accused me of being angry for his posting, again, of the meme. The truth is that any anger (and again that is a big stretch of the definition of anger) was in his repeated attempt to simply anger Christians. It is lame and silly.....I told him so. He continues to declare how upset these posts make me with the intimation that I am upset because I am Christian, avoiding the truth which is that he is simply trolling. He has actually admitted that. Of course he does so in the manner of the 'tough street guy' that he likes to portray............Yeah I'm a troll, so what. I'll keep at it until I'm banned..........oh shit, I'm banned.

As much as my posts seem to irk you (hence my Carnac comment) I feel more than that about Rusty's bullshit.

While your response to E4RUMOR had some unnecessary snarky insulting language, you at least engaged in a discussion with actual thoughts and articulate thoughts at that.

Measure Man
01-02-2015, 06:16 PM
Despite this you (and MM) wanted to tell me that I can't do this. That I am not Christian enough.

I don't think I said you couldn't do that. I said I have a difficult time reconciling that position and when I asked if you could help me understand it, you declined.


His meme has nothing to do with the corner he backed himself into. Rusty accused me of being angry for his posting, again, of the meme. The truth is that any anger (and again that is a big stretch of the definition of anger) was in his repeated attempt to simply anger Christians. It is lame and silly.....I told him so. He continues to declare how upset these posts make me with the intimation that I am upset because I am Christian, avoiding the truth which is that he is simply trolling.

I gotta be honest...even as a nonbeliever I found that meme pretty offensive.

Absinthe Anecdote
01-02-2015, 06:33 PM
I gotta be honest...even as a nonbeliever I found that meme pretty offensive.

I'm more offended that someone who openly celebrates a pagan god like Thor came to the rescue of Jesus.

Jesus and his followers are the ones who killed all the Norse gods.

TJMAC77SP
01-02-2015, 06:38 PM
I don't think I said you couldn't do that. I said I have a difficult time reconciling that position and when I asked if you could help me understand it, you declined.

Yes, I suppose you didn't decree I could or couldn't 'do' anything but you do seem to balk at me describing myself as a Christian. I knew a Jew once who routinely consumes pork products. I would never have dreamed of telling him that I couldn't reconcile his calling himself a Jew because he didn't believe or adhere to all the tenents of the faith. My claim to be a Christian is admittedly disingenuous but admittedly so.

I also didn't decline to help you understand. I attempted more than once to explain myself......and failed.

“I use the label because I haven't found another one the fits. I am not an atheist.Particularly if that means denigrating anyone who isn't. I certainly can't useanother religion as a label. I tried agnostic but seem to remember a whole thread on the MTF explaining to me that wasn't a viable choice. Didn't you take part in that discussion.

The bottom line is that I don't really label myself. I will identify as Christian when pressed because it makes it simpler for me and for others.

I don't want to pick a side (other than for the rights of others) and if Jesus wants me to pick a side I will add that to the list of things about Christianity which I question.”

“I suppose I admit to labeling myself only out of a sense of full disclosure. I don't consider myself an atheist because I still have unanswered questions (paradoxically for some of the same reasons you came to the opposite conclusion........out of the vastness of the universe,etc). The answer "I don't know" would only invite questions and perhaps attempts to force me into one camp or another.

I believe strongly that one's religion or belief system is a deeply personal thing. I take the concept of freedom of religion very seriously. I revile those that would attempt to paint it so that their religion is acceptable based onthe Constitution (Christian right) and equally the opposite side that seems to think freedom of religion actually means freedom from religion.”

I think if I were not to adopt some label and engage in some religious discussion it would be sure to be thrown in my face. So, I admit to being a Christian, even if it again, just a remnant of my upbringing. Sure enough, that didn't work either.
I grapple with the thought of a supreme being. I have as hard a time believing one moment...nothing, next moment........universe as I do in a supreme being who created everything. The details of the process often cited, sure I reject those because they just don't make sense.


I gotta be honest...even as a nonbeliever I found that meme pretty offensive.

Which what he intended and admitted to but doesn't want anyone to tell him that is douchebaggery.

sandsjames
01-02-2015, 06:55 PM
Being non-denominational is pretty simple. When Christianity first began, there were no denominations. To believe in the teachings of Jesus and to believe that he is the Son of God who died for our sins is being a Christian. Jesus is the Church. Attending a building on a regular basis to fit into some sort of box and have something to put on one's dog tags isn't what it's about, IMO.

Measure Man
01-02-2015, 07:22 PM
Being non-denominational is pretty simple. When Christianity first began, there were no denominations.

I think there were:

Luke 9: 49-50

49 Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”
50“Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”

sandsjames
01-02-2015, 07:40 PM
I think there were:

Luke 9: 49-50

49 Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”
50“Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”

I think it means just the opposite. It's saying that no matter how people believe and worship, as long as they are following Jesus then it's ok. Jesus is saying "A Christian is a Christian, put the petty disagreement shit aside."

Measure Man
01-02-2015, 07:47 PM
Yes, I suppose you didn't decree I could or couldn't 'do' anything but you do seem to balk at me describing myself as a Christian. I knew a Jew once who routinely consumes pork products. I would never have dreamed of telling him that I couldn't reconcile his calling himself a Jew because he didn't believe or adhere to all the tenents of the faith.

Okay...I get the point.

On a side note, Reformed Jews pretty much eat pork. Plus, identifying as a Jew, is not necessarily identifying with the Religion as Jew as it is also an ethnic identity. Hence you have "Jews for Jesus", etc.

My wife eats pork. She generally does not like sausages and ham...and that comes from the pork ban when she was younger, it's just been instilled in here that these are sort of "gross"...but she doesn't avoid them out of any particular religious conviction, the uncleanness has just sort of been ingrained in her...like we might feel grossed out by eating beatles even though they might be delicious and good for you.


My claim to be a Christian is admittedly disingenuous but admittedly so.

Okay.


I also didn't decline to help you understand. I attempted more than once to explain myself......and failed.

“I use the label because I haven't found another one the fits. I am not an atheist.Particularly if that means denigrating anyone who isn't. I certainly can't useanother religion as a label. I tried agnostic but seem to remember a whole thread on the MTF explaining to me that wasn't a viable choice. Didn't you take part in that discussion.

The bottom line is that I don't really label myself. I will identify as Christian when pressed because it makes it simpler for me and for others.

I don't want to pick a side (other than for the rights of others) and if Jesus wants me to pick a side I will add that to the list of things about Christianity which I question.”

“I suppose I admit to labeling myself only out of a sense of full disclosure. I don't consider myself an atheist because I still have unanswered questions (paradoxically for some of the same reasons you came to the opposite conclusion........out of the vastness of the universe,etc). The answer "I don't know" would only invite questions and perhaps attempts to force me into one camp or another.

I believe strongly that one's religion or belief system is a deeply personal thing. I take the concept of freedom of religion very seriously. I revile those that would attempt to paint it so that their religion is acceptable based onthe Constitution (Christian right) and equally the opposite side that seems to think freedom of religion actually means freedom from religion.”

I think if I were not to adopt some label and engage in some religious discussion it would be sure to be thrown in my face. So, I admit to being a Christian, even if it again, just a remnant of my upbringing. Sure enough, that didn't work either.
I grapple with the thought of a supreme being. I have as hard a time believing one moment...nothing, next moment........universe as I do in a supreme being who created everything. The details of the process often cited, sure I reject those because they just don't make sense.

Yes, you did...I take it back.


Which what he intended and admitted to but doesn't want anyone to tell him that is douchebaggery.

Measure Man
01-02-2015, 08:00 PM
I think it means just the opposite. It's saying that no matter how people believe and worship, as long as they are following Jesus then it's ok. Jesus is saying "A Christian is a Christian, put the petty disagreement shit aside."

While I think it probably does mean that "A Christian is a Christian"...or not to denigrate other believers (denominations) as long as they are still followers. I think these "other Christians" that were claiming Jesus but "were not one of us (the disciples)" were maybe another denomination. If not, what/who were they?

I'm not saying I have anything against non-denomination as opposed to denominational Christians. For the most the part, the difference in denomination are relatively minor points of the faith. I just don't think all early Christians were one big faith-group necessarily.

Although, I've heard it explained that all of the different followers of Jesus united at Antioch(?) in the Book of Acts...or somewhere in that book, but I'm a little rusty on that bit...and I don't think there is really any bibilical evidence of it.

Absinthe Anecdote
01-02-2015, 08:15 PM
Being non-denominational is pretty simple. When Christianity first began, there were no denominations. To believe in the teachings of Jesus and to believe that he is the Son of God who died for our sins is being a Christian. Jesus is the Church. Attending a building on a regular basis to fit into some sort of box and have something to put on one's dog tags isn't what it's about, IMO.

Not accurate, from the very beginning there were offshoots in Christianity, these were regarded as heresies by the early church, the Gnostics were a prime example of one of the offshoots that were there from the beginning.

While it is true that the first major division didn't occur until 1054 when the Eastern Orthodox Church split from Rome, known as the Great Schism.

In the 16th century the Protestant Reformation occurred, and in the 500 years since a multitude of denominations sprang forth from the Protestant branch of Christianity.

This includes the modern groups in the US that label themselves as non-denominational, which are invariably Protestant in their origins.

These independent non-denomination churches are significant in that followers are disregarding large portions of scripture, practices, and beliefs that were once considered sacred and holy.

It is in essence small groups of people who are inventing their own religion, with no regard to God's supposed infallible and divine word.

If that is not strong proof of man being the inventor of God, and the Jesus story, I don't know what is.

God (if real) apparently does not care two shits what we do in regards to scripture.

Oh wait, his plan is to let us become corrupted again, then send Jesus back to rapture the select few who picked the right branch and denomination of Christianity.

The rest of Christianity has much tribulation to look forward to until the Second Coming occurs. So good luck to all you non-denoms who did your own thing.

You are right in that it isn't about what is on your dog tags, it is very much about how you follow the infallible and sacred word of God.

sandsjames
01-02-2015, 08:38 PM
While I think it probably does mean that "A Christian is a Christian"...or not to denigrate other believers (denominations) as long as they are still followers. I think these "other Christians" that were claiming Jesus but "were not one of us (the disciples)" were maybe another denomination. If not, what/who were they?

I'm not saying I have anything against non-denomination as opposed to denominational Christians. For the most the part, the difference in denomination are relatively minor points of the faith. I just don't think all early Christians were one big faith-group necessarily.

Although, I've heard it explained that all of the different followers of Jesus united at Antioch(?) in the Book of Acts...or somewhere in that book, but I'm a little rusty on that bit...and I don't think there is really any bibilical evidence of it.


I should have said that it wasn't intended for there to be denominations. They are a product of Man's ego.

Measure Man
01-02-2015, 09:01 PM
Then why even point it out three times in one day?


Point out what three times?

81

...as long as we're getting all biblical :-)

Measure Man
01-02-2015, 09:06 PM
I should have said that it wasn't intended for there to be denominations. They are a product of Man's ego.

Back when I was an Eastern Orthodox (Byzantine) Catholic...we had this prayer they would go through during Mass each Sunday, that was basically a reciting of the tenets of our faith...one of them was:

"...that there is one true, holy, catholic and apostolic Church" (us, of course)

TJMAC77SP
01-02-2015, 10:20 PM
81

...as long as we're getting all biblical :-)

I see what you did there.

Did I miss another AA joke?

TJMAC77SP
01-02-2015, 10:21 PM
Back when I was an Eastern Orthodox (Byzantine) Catholic...we had this prayer they would go through during Mass each Sunday, that was basically a reciting of the tenets of our faith...one of them was:

"...that there is one true, holy, catholic and apostolic Church" (us, of course)

The 'other' Catholics say that too. The Apostle's Creed.

Absinthe Anecdote
01-03-2015, 03:52 AM
I see what you did there.

Did I miss another AA joke?

No, you just can't keep track of what you posted previously.

TJMAC77SP
01-05-2015, 04:06 AM
No, you just can't keep track of what you posted previously.

Entirely possible but details please.

I don't remember saying anything about Peter's three denials of Christ

How does that relate to what you posted and my question about what I asked about three times............and why that's important?

As a refresher...................


Then why even point it out three times in one day?

You just admitted that you are vestigial Christian at best, so why is it absurdwhen someone else makes that observation?

Plus, I don't see how that puts Rusty in a corner, all he did was post apicture of Jesus fucking Christ.

Now, I'll agree with you that Rusty has some gay issues. It is very obviousthat he has played with ladyboys on one of his port visits and is ashamed ofit. That's why he wants to promote the idea that it is possible to be dupedinto having intercourse with one.


Point out what three times?

Come on let's have a little honest back and forth here.

Someone paints me with a brush as a diehard Christian. I state that isn't true and am (like countless others) a Christian pretty much in name only. Then there are multiple pages of why I shouldn't call myself a Christian (add to that no mention of the previous and repeated characterization of me being a diehard Christian). I see that as absurd. If I were arguing a validity of the faith or scriptures, fine, that would make sense. Otherwise, absurd.

His meme has nothing to do with the corner he backed himself into. Rusty accused me of being angry for his posting, again, of the meme. The truth is that any anger (and again that is a big stretch of the definition of anger) was in his repeated attempt to simply anger Christians. It is lame and silly.....I told him so. He continues to declare how upset these posts make me with the intimation that I am upset because I am Christian, avoiding the truth which is that he is simply trolling. He has actually admitted that. Of course he does so in the manner of the 'tough street guy' that he likes to portray............Yeah I'm a troll, so what. I'll keepat it until I'm banned..........oh shit, I'm banned.

As much as my posts seem to irk you (hence my Carnac comment) I feel more than that about Rusty's bullshit.

While your response to E4RUMOR had some unnecessary snarky insulting language,you at least engaged in a discussion with actual thoughts and articulate thoughts at that.

So what is it that I can't keep track of?

EDIT: Sorry, just noticed you got banned while I was out of town for less than two days.

sandsjames
01-05-2015, 02:54 PM
EDIT: Sorry, just noticed you got banned while I was out of town for less than two days.

Say it aint so. We are now without Rusty and AA. Who's gonna step up?

TJMAC77SP
01-05-2015, 05:11 PM
Say it aint so. We are now without Rusty and AA. Who's gonna step up?

Things will be quiet that's for sure.

Rainmaker
01-06-2015, 02:21 PM
Have no Fear folks...... The Rainmaker will continue to SPIT Knowledge to those that have ears to hear, until Abs and Rusty Tool return.........

S&P 500 Intraday low of March 6, 2009. This "mark of the beast" was a Signal to the initiated that the Luciferian Elite had taken control of the US Stock Market and it was "safe" to buy again.

It's up 208% since then, making Trillions for the .01% and saddling the rest of the country with debt, that will lead to an eventual dollar collapse.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKCQakOUYYc