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Rusty Jones
12-13-2014, 01:48 PM
Okay, this meme caught my attention:

https://fbcdn-photos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-0/10846491_10152948785243189_8734151259163500811_n.j pg?oh=69bdf8026903eb7dfafeb88b34055cd8&oe=550E08D0&__gda__=1430638981_68ba98985be54e503f16637221ef0d5 5

I'm not going to speculate with the "whole" or "true" story behind it is, but I will say that this thread will be similar to the "what if prostitution was legal" thread, in that it's all based on speculation and "what ifs."

This meme has me thinking that adding more controls - like lapel cameras - won't stop anything, because the problem might be with people who want to be police officers. I think that their minds operate a different way. The dirty work that police officers HAVE to do? People who want to be police officers probably WANT to do that dirty work. And... I think that that's a problem.

What if we made police duty - specifically the uniformed officers on the street - no longer a "career" that one could actively pursue, and made it similar to jury duty or the draft? They'd have to do it for maybe two or three years, before being released. Of course, the same standards for selection would be the same standards currently in place for those who apply when it comes to medical and moral background. Also, there'd be laws in place to protect their regular jobs when they're called upon.

I'm thinking that those who DON'T want to be police officers might make better police officers - because they're only going to do the dirty work when they HAVE to. Not because they WANT to.

Other benefits: people on both sides will have some skin in the game. Not only might officers be less enthusiastic about doing the dirty work, but they also know that when their term is up, they're going to be "back on the block" with the people that they once exercised authority over. On the flip side, every able-bodied citizen with a clean moral background either will have served, or knows that they can be called upon at ANY time; so they'll have more skin in the game when it comes to obeying the law, and are possibly more likely to treat officers how they will want to be treated when it's their turn.

I'd actually like to see a municipality experiment with this. Thoughts?

Absinthe Anecdote
12-13-2014, 02:01 PM
Sounds like a crazy idea to me that would lead to far more problems than we have now.

You want conscripted law enforcement officers that will have a higher turn over, less training, and many who don't want to be there.

I don't think that leads to better cops at all. Seems like those who don't want to be there would be more likely to not answer calls, not confront bank robbers, and let domestic disturbances settle themselves.

Rusty Jones
12-13-2014, 02:08 PM
Sounds like a crazy idea to me that would lead to far more problems than we have now.

You want conscripted law enforcement officers that will have a higher turn over, less training, and many who don't want to be there.

I don't think that leads to better cops at all. Seems like those who don't want to be there would be more likely to not answer calls, not confront bank robbers, and let domestic disturbances settle themselves.

Well, turnover wouldn't be a problem because of the nature of the terms.

You also have to think about how not doing their jobs might affect future employment as well. The reason I mentioned that selectivity would still be the same, is to prevent the scenario you're talking about where officers selected would be the types that have nothing to lose.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-13-2014, 02:18 PM
EXCLUSIVE: MICHELLE EXPLODES AS OBAMA SECRET LOVE NEST REVEALED


Published on: December 12, 2014
by STEVE HERZ, NATIONAL ENQUIRER


EXCLUSIVE: MICHELLE EXPLODES AS OBAMA SECRET LOVE NEST REVEALED!

President Obama’s Christmas has turned into the holiday from hell after a furious First Lady Michelle discovered his secret love nest!

In a White House world exclusive, The National ENQUIRER has learned the couple’s marriage may end in divorce before Barack finishes his second term.

“Michelle found out about his secret love nest and exploded in fury!” a White House insider told The ENQUIRER. “Despite the happy public face the family is putting out, it’s created the holiday from hell!

“In early December, Michelle confronted Barack about a secret location he’s been using to meet up with women. She verbally ripped him to pieces. Barack didn’t have much of a comeback. He knows he’s been ratted out.”



Multiple insiders confirmed to The ENQUIRER that Obama’s secret love nest is the swanky Jefferson Hotel, located a few blocks from the White House. “The ‘commander-in-cheat,’ as he’s known at the place, comes and goes so frequently that some hotel staffers call the door he uses the ‘Barack entrance,’” the insider 
divulged.

“It’s easy for the president to get to and best of all, it has a secret entrance so he can come and go discreetly,” the insider divulged.

“The hotel’s private wine cellar features a door used for inconspicuous egress.”

According to the hotel’s website, the deluxe suites “afford city views of Washington, D.C.,” and they feature Italian marble bathrooms!

As The ENQUIRER previously reported, Michelle discovered the Secret Service had been covering up for her husband’s unfaithfulness.

Added the source: “You can bet after learning about his love nest that Michelle will be filling his Christmas stocking with coal – but better that than divorce papers.

PS

Your posting of that meme is ridiculous, and unrelated to your point.

It would be like me posting a dubious story like this and then saying,


"I don't want to speculate on the true story behind this, I just want to post something inflammatory, and then take advantage of your emotional reaction to it, on an entirely different issue."

Rusty Jones
12-13-2014, 02:21 PM
PS

Your posting of that meme is ridiculous, and unrelated to your point.

It would be like me posting a dubious story like this and then saying,


"I don't want to speculate on the true story behind this, I just want to post something inflammatory, and then take advantage of your emotional reaction to it, on an entirely different issue."

According to the meme, the officer shot his wife because he thought she was smoking weed. That's a very extreme example of overzealousness when it comes to being a police officer, but I don't think that's too far fetched to say that those who actively WANT to be a police officer might have some of that in them, even if not anywhere near to the same extent as the officer in the meme.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-13-2014, 02:22 PM
Well, turnover wouldn't be a problem because of the nature of the terms.

You also have to think about how not doing their jobs might affect future employment as well. The reason I mentioned that selectivity would still be the same, is to prevent the scenario you're talking about where officers selected would be the types that have nothing to lose.

How would high turnover not be a problem? You said you'd want them to serve for two or three years.

That is barely enough time to learn the streets, you'd have a force of rookies nearly all the time.

Rusty Jones
12-13-2014, 02:24 PM
How would high turnover not be a problem? You said you'd want them to serve for two or three years.

That is barely enough time to learn the streets, you'd have a force of rookies nearly all the time.

Right, but I was making reference to the lower ranking patrolman duties. Your criminal investigators, detectives, SWAT teams, and all of those would still be all volunteer.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-13-2014, 02:25 PM
According to the meme, the officer shot his wife because he thought she was smoking weed. That's a very extreme example of overzealousness when it comes to being a police officer, but I don't think that's too far fetched to say that those who actively WANT to be a police officer might have some of that in them, even if not anywhere near to the same extent as the officer in the meme.

Did you have a sleepover at garkhal's house last night? Seriously, this sounds like one of his wacky "what if" threads.

Rusty Jones
12-13-2014, 02:27 PM
Did you have a sleepover at garkhal's house last night? Seriously, this sounds like one of his wacky "what if" threads.

Nope. This is just that - a "what if" thread. It's not designed to piss anyone off.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-13-2014, 02:36 PM
Right, but I was making reference to the lower ranking patrolman duties. Your criminal investigators, detectives, SWAT teams, and all of those would still be all volunteer.

I think the criminal element would have a field day fucking with and intimidating rookies.

I really believe what happened with Micheal Brown was that he looked at Officer Wilson and saw a fair skinned blue-eyed baby-faced cop and thought, "Look at this pussy white boy, Imma scare his ass off."

And you know what happened next...

That kind of shit would be going on all the fucking time under your "Citizen Police" model.

What not come up with another brilliant idea like building high rise towers for public housing of the poor?

Rusty Jones
12-13-2014, 02:41 PM
I think the criminal element would have a field day fucking with and intimidating rookies.

I really believe what happened with Micheal Brown was that he looked at Officer Wilson and saw a fair skinned blue-eyed baby-faced cop and thought, "Look at this pussy white boy, Imma scare his ass off."

And you know what happened next...

That kind of shit would be going on all the fucking time under your "Citizen Police" model.

With Michael Brown only being 18 and a baby face himself, I seriously doubt that he believed himself to be able to intimidate an armed police officer.

Rollyn01
12-13-2014, 02:48 PM
This sounds like a solution looking for a problem. Most of the people under this model wouldn't be motivated enough to do the right thing when it counts and it opens it up to more corruption as many of the "selected" would do what they can to avoid hard work (i.e. taking a bribe, "misplacing" paperwork etc.). They won't have any sense of duty because they aren't any better then the next person who would be selected to replace them if they screw up. You would need more overhead just to keep them under control.

Stalwart
12-13-2014, 02:50 PM
I was not able to see the photo.


Overall I think it is an interesting concept, but that there are things I don't think make it a 'great idea':


This meme has me thinking that adding more controls - like lapel cameras - won't stop anything, because the problem might be with people who want to be police officers. I think that their minds operate a different way. The dirty work that police officers HAVE to do? People who want to be police officers probably WANT to do that dirty work. And... I think that that's a problem.

I don't see it that way. I know some (obviously not all) police officers and they have a very high sense of duty. There are bad apples, but I don't think that someone wanting to do the hard job no one else does means something is 'wrong' with them. It is like saying that people who chose to work as janitors, soup kitchen volunteers, in homeless shelters or with the sick or mentally ill have something 'wrong' with them because they want to do the dirty work of our society.



What if we made police duty - specifically the uniformed officers on the street - no longer a "career" that one could actively pursue, and made it similar to jury duty or the draft? They'd have to do it for maybe two or three years, before being released. Of course, the same standards for selection would be the same standards currently in place for those who apply when it comes to medical and moral background. Also, there'd be laws in place to protect their regular jobs when they're called upon.

Becoming a police officer requires a significant amount of training (up to 6 months in some places that I am aware of). By contrast, jury duty is specifically meant to be a jury of your societal peers vice being judged by a trained, professional jurist class. For military conscription, very few draftees end up with (at least initially) highly technical / trainable jobs. Even in countries that use compulsory service, the basic term of service is fulfilled in basic jobs and if you become a professional soldier other technical areas are opened to you. When my brother became a police officer I was really surprised how much training they get on local law/statutes and procedures. Additionally, since there is so much judicial precedence on how the initial search, seizure, apprehension and rights advisement of a suspect in a crime is critically important ... IMO leaving this to a non-professional law enforcement officer would seriously jeopardize the vital role played by police as the first link the chain of law enforcement / prosecution.


I'm thinking that those who DON'T want to be police officers might make better police officers - because they're only going to do the dirty work when they HAVE to. Not because they WANT to.

Or, the ones who don't want to do it just bide their time knowing they are done in a year or two. No incentive to do a good job because this isn't your career and if you screw up really bad your regular job is already waiting for you when your term of service is done. If I gave you a job that you didn't really want to do, are you going to excel at it ... or do the bare minimum?


Not only might officers be less enthusiastic about doing the dirty work, but they also know that when their term is up, they're going to be "back on the block" with the people that they once exercised authority over.

Or, they more lightly police their friends from when they were 'on the block' and who they know will take care of them when they come back.


On the flip side, every able-bodied citizen with a clean moral background either will have served, or knows that they can be called upon at ANY time; so they'll have more skin in the game when it comes to obeying the law, and are possibly more likely to treat officers how they will want to be treated when it's their turn.

I like this part, but wonder why we (parents, the locality, people in general) don't act civilly towards everyone (including police) already. There are sections of our culture where acting confrontationally with the police or others who are exercising a bit of authority is encouraged. In looking at the recent incidents in MO & NY, had either of those individual complied with police requests and not turned the ‘routine’ issue into a hostile confrontation they would both be alive. Based on the available evidence from FL & Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman may have been a dumbass to the 10th degree, but Martin not acting hostile would not have elevated the confrontation.

Something I think that along this line may be worth pursuing would be a voluntary 'ride along' program to have citizens along as non-participant observers who are not there to render judgment or enforce law but just observe. But one problem I see with this is that if the officer and observer is white and a suspect is black the immediate need to find a black observer and vice vesa becoming an issue.

Overall, there are places where the training should probably be addressed. There are some issues with the ways that some people conduct the business of 'policing'. But also, there are also areas where some people could use some training in 'citizening'.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-13-2014, 02:50 PM
Nope. This is just that - a "what if" thread. It's not designed to piss anyone off.

Yeah, I know.

I just wanted to toss out the image of you and garkhal having a sleepover.

You have your WWE pajamas on, and he is wearing Dr. Who, or some other stupid British shit.

You have s'mores, then get into a pillow fight. Afterwards you build a big fort from the sofa cushions and blankets, then go inside to play "Dupe the Salior" for the rest of the night.

Stalwart
12-13-2014, 02:53 PM
With Michael Brown only being 18 and a baby face himself, I seriously doubt that he believed himself to be able to intimidate an armed police officer.

He certainly believed he was able to manhandle and intimate the shop owner that he robbed just before the confrontation with Wilson.

Michael Brown was 6'5" and weighed about 290 pounds. Baby face or not, I would not want to square off on a guy like that.

EDIT:


I really believe what happened with Micheal Brown was that he looked at Officer Wilson and saw a fair skinned blue-eyed baby-faced cop and thought, "Look at this pussy white boy, Imma scare his ass off."

And to be fair, Wilson is 6'4 and about 210 ... 1 inch and a 90 pounds difference in size. Brown was kind of built like a brick shit house.

Brown's family portrayed him as a "gentle giant" that wouldn't hurt anyone, which was a great narrative that didn't fit with the surveillance video from the shop that was released. It also did not fit with the images that were on his social media accounts that were quickly removed when some news media and people in support of Wilson found them and published them. I don't think Brown was unaware of his size or image.

Rusty Jones
12-13-2014, 02:56 PM
This sounds like a solution looking for a problem. Most of the people under this model wouldn't be motivated enough to do the right thing when it counts and it opens it up to more corruption as many of the "selected" would do what they can to avoid hard work (i.e. taking a bribe, "misplacing" paperwork etc.). They won't have any sense of duty because they aren't any better then the next person who would be selected to replace them if they screw up. You would need more overhead just to keep them under control.

Put yourself in that position. Hell, let's even add another requirement - a minimum age. I'll pick an arbitrary number, like 30. It sounds like a good number, because someone who is only 21 hasn't spent enough time as an adult to prove themselves as upstanding citizens. While I was a classifier in the Navy, I hated getting 30 year olds who wanted to go intel, because I knew that most of them would have jacked up credit. Whereas, a 21 year old hasn't had time to screw theirs up yet.

And then, put yourself in the shoes of a hypothetical citizen police officer - I wouldn't want to be one. But if called upon to do so, I'd do my job - that includes responding to bank robberies, etc, etc. Maybe I'm overestimating people, but I would think that someone who has managed to stay out of trouble up until the age of 30 would have the morals to do the right thing in that scenario. If he was a criminal, he'd have been a convict a long time ago.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-13-2014, 03:00 PM
With Michael Brown only being 18 and a baby face himself, I seriously doubt that he believed himself to be able to intimidate an armed police officer.

Rookie cops get intimidated all the time by people on the street. As soon as you start acting like Officer Friendly all the time, it won't be long until someone starts fucking with you, gun or not.

Stalwart
12-13-2014, 03:03 PM
Rookie cops get intimidated all the time by people on the street. As soon as you start acting like Officer Friendly all the time, it won't be long until someone starts fucking with you, gun or not.

Firm but fair ... firm but fair.

Rollyn01
12-13-2014, 03:04 PM
Put yourself in that position. Hell, let's even add another requirement - a minimum age. I'll pick an arbitrary number, like 30. It sounds like a good number, because someone who is only 21 hasn't spent enough time as an adult to prove themselves as upstanding citizens. While I was a classifier in the Navy, I hated getting 30 year olds who wanted to go intel, because I knew that most of them would have jacked up credit. Whereas, a 21 year old hasn't had time to screw theirs up yet.

And then, put yourself in the shoes of a hypothetical citizen police officer - I wouldn't want to be one. But if called upon to do so, I'd do my job - that includes responding to bank robberies, etc, etc. Maybe I'm overestimating people, but I would think that someone who has managed to stay out of trouble up until the age of 30 would have the morals to do the right thing in that scenario. If he was a criminal, he'd have been a convict a long time ago.

This all assumes that the person is actually motivated to do the right thing. Without that, this entire scenario falls apart quick, fast and in a hurry. It is the central core of what would make it work if it can work.

Rollyn01
12-13-2014, 03:09 PM
Firm but fair ... firm but fair.


But with a knife hand to the face if the criminals get uppity? Sorry, forgot I wasn't a Soldier for a second. :cool:

Absinthe Anecdote
12-13-2014, 03:13 PM
Firm but fair ... firm but fair.

And it takes a long time to learn that. Your earlier posts mentioned the length of police academies. Then they have as much as 18 months OJT before they are off a probationary period.

Bigger departments assign them to training officers, to teach them the streets.

Firm but fair, sounds simple, but the truth is, it takes a few years to learn how to treat complete strangers that way in what are often high stress situations.

The more gifted of Rusty's conscripted street cops, will just be getting the hang of it by the time they have finished their tour.

Stalwart
12-13-2014, 03:22 PM
And it takes a long time to learn that. Your earlier posts mentioned the length of police academies. Then they have as much as 18 months OJT before they are off a probationary period.

Bigger departments assign them to training officers, to teach them the streets.

Firm but fair, sounds simple, but the truth is, it takes a few years to learn how to treat complete strangers that way in what are often high stress situations.

The more gifted of Rusty's conscripted street cops, will just be getting the hang of it by the time they have finished their tour.

My intent was that I pretty much agree with you, a police officer isn't there to be 'Officer Friendly' but to be firm and fiar with the people he interacts with; they don't have to be a dick and intimidating but they should be firm on the law. Maybe not this guy:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvJiYrRcfQo

but not this guy either


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlmECL2ED2I

Rollyn01
12-13-2014, 03:23 PM
And it takes a long time to learn that. Your earlier posts mentioned the length of police academies. Then they have as much as 18 months OJT before they are off a probationary period.

Bigger departments assign them to training officers, to teach them the streets.

Firm but fair, sounds simple, but the truth is, it takes a few years to learn how to treat complete strangers that way in what are often high stress situations.

The more gifted of Rusty's conscripted street cops, will just be getting the hang of it by the time they have finished their tour.

Then I guess the question becomes what can be done to accelerate the process? I mean, the military's been doing it for a long time to help with the build up... On second thought, scratch that, it would just be worse.

Stalwart
12-13-2014, 04:15 PM
Then I guess the question becomes what can be done to accelerate the process? I mean, the military's been doing it for a long time to help with the build up... On second thought, scratch that, it would just be worse.

This is kind of where the term GRUNT comes from:

Ground Replacement / UNTrained = GRUNT

the abbreviation was stamped on paperwork for guys in WWII who lacked any training other than boot camp who were assigned to infantry units.

garhkal
12-13-2014, 06:59 PM
What if we made police duty - specifically the uniformed officers on the street - no longer a "career" that one could actively pursue, and made it similar to jury duty or the draft? They'd have to do it for maybe two or three years, before being released. Of course, the same standards for selection would be the same standards currently in place for those who apply when it comes to medical and moral background. Also, there'd be laws in place to protect their regular jobs when they're called upon.

I'm thinking that those who DON'T want to be police officers might make better police officers - because they're only going to do the dirty work when they HAVE to. Not because they WANT to.

Other benefits: people on both sides will have some skin in the game. Not only might officers be less enthusiastic about doing the dirty work, but they also know that when their term is up, they're going to be "back on the block" with the people that they once exercised authority over. On the flip side, every able-bodied citizen with a clean moral background either will have served, or knows that they can be called upon at ANY time; so they'll have more skin in the game when it comes to obeying the law, and are possibly more likely to treat officers how they will want to be treated when it's their turn.

I'd actually like to see a municipality experiment with this. Thoughts?

Interesting suggestion. While i can see some benefits of it, i can also see a lot of heart ache. If their cop jobs are 'volunteer' work, i don't see as many willing to put their lives on the line unless this volunteer work pays well, and even if it does pay well, many will still be reluctant.
Who pays for their uniforms, equipment and training?
What sort of crimes can one have guilty pleas for and still be 'selected'?


How would high turnover not be a problem? You said you'd want them to serve for two or three years.

That is barely enough time to learn the streets, you'd have a force of rookies nearly all the time.

Plus since laws are always getting changed, updated, added and removed, you would have to send EVERYONE to classes on them to stay up to date. Who's going to pay for that.???


With Michael Brown only being 18 and a baby face himself, I seriously doubt that he believed himself to be able to intimidate an armed police officer.

So you don't think a thuggish looking 300+lb 6ft+ guy can be intimidating? Even to armed cops?


This sounds like a solution looking for a problem. Most of the people under this model wouldn't be motivated enough to do the right thing when it counts and it opens it up to more corruption as many of the "selected" would do what they can to avoid hard work (i.e. taking a bribe, "misplacing" paperwork etc.). They won't have any sense of duty because they aren't any better then the next person who would be selected to replace them if they screw up. You would need more overhead just to keep them under control.

Good point on more would likely be willing to overlook things, or misplace paperwork so they wouldn't have to do as much.


Yeah, I know.

I just wanted to toss out the image of you and garkhal having a sleepover.

I am to weird to have people sleep over! :o

Rainmaker
12-17-2014, 02:34 PM
Rusty, The Militarization and insularity of the police is a definately problem. And I think you should have to live in the Neighborhood you police. But, The whole "Gentle Giant" Michael Brown story was a lie. The agent provocateur spent month fanning these flames.

I won't pretend to know what a solution is. But, Bottom line. The African American Community might want to start walking with the flow of traffic and start trying to get right with the PO-9 and the rest of the population, cause In a few short months, the small % of the US population they represent will soon be decreasing... by design....and this "buffer" between them and the elite, that's being brought in will be far less sympathetic to their plight than most White people have been.

sandsjames
12-17-2014, 03:51 PM
I think everyone is missing the bigger point here. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the meme is true. Why hasn't action been taken? I mean, this is a relatively attractive white middle class mother. White cops don't generally shoot white people, especially women. Now I bet every time a white woman gets shot, or arrested, by a white cop it'll be big news. Cops are obviously sexist and we need to do something about it. Have your cameras ready, folks!