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Capt Alfredo
11-22-2014, 01:45 AM
What does everyone think of this? Is it appropriate? A sign of leadership? Is it important in today's Air Force to publicize this sort of thing? Photo op? PA propaganda? Caring leader? I'm not sure it's an either/or proposition.

78

Measure Man
11-22-2014, 03:17 AM
What does everyone think of this? Is it appropriate? A sign of leadership? Is it important in today's Air Force to publicize this sort of thing? Photo op? PA propaganda? Caring leader? I'm not sure it's an either/or proposition.

78

Appropriate...yes
Sign of leadersip...yes
Important to publicize...no
Photo op/propagnda...I don't think so, it could be i suppose, but it looks more like she was just doing this and someone snuck in and took the picture without her knowledge
Caring leader...I think so.

Absinthe Anecdote
11-22-2014, 04:03 AM
If anyone other than ACE1 was behind posting that, it is insincere, in my opinion.

That's cool of her to do, but not a big deal either.

Kids are adorable, who wouldn't want to hangout with a little one for awhile?

Not sure if it needed to be trumpeted like that, but if it was the Wing CC that snapped the photo and posted it, ok.

If someone lower ranking was behind it, then it is creepy.

akruse
11-22-2014, 11:32 AM
If anyone other than ACE1 was behind posting that, it is insincere, in my opinion.

That's cool of her to do, but not a big deal either.

Kids are adorable, who wouldn't want to hangout with a little one for awhile?

Not sure if it needed to be trumpeted like that, but if it was the Wing CC that snapped the photo and posted it, ok.

If someone lower ranking was behind it, then it is creepy.

I would bet that it was the mother who snapped it. Pretty close relationship.

LogDog
11-22-2014, 07:48 PM
What does everyone think of this? Is it appropriate? A sign of leadership? Is it important in today's Air Force to publicize this sort of thing? Photo op? PA propaganda? Caring leader? I'm not sure it's an either/or proposition.

78
The photo was put out by Malstrom AFB so the question is who put it out and why?

IMO, I really don't care because she is taking care of business; she's taking care of her child and she's doing her job at the same time. Note, her appearance isn't in uniform so most likely she's working after normal duty hours. I've known a number of parents who've done the same thing by bringing in their children to the office while they work after normal duty hours.

Measure Man
11-22-2014, 08:25 PM
The photo was put out by Malstrom AFB so the question is who put it out and why?

IMO, I really don't care because she is taking care of business; she's taking care of her child and she's doing her job at the same time. Note, her appearance isn't in uniform so most likely she's working after normal duty hours. I've known a number of parents who've done the same thing by bringing in their children to the office while they work after normal duty hours.

It's not her child...it's a child of one of the Airmen on wing staff.

So...it's the end of the duty, Airmen has some stuff to do, but has to pick up her child from daycare. So, she goes and picks up the child and comes back to the office to finish up whatever she had to do.

The Vice Wing CC holds the baby so the Airman can go do what she has to do for the Wing CC.

It's not really a huge deal...it's nice of her to do that, someone snapped a candid picture and put it on Facebook. Seems like she's a nice lady...that's all.

Not sure why we have to question the motivation of the picture and all that...yes, if she asked someone to take the picture and post it, it would be a creepy thing to do, but highly doubt that's the case.

USN - Retired
11-23-2014, 08:44 AM
What does everyone think of this? Is it appropriate? A sign of leadership? Is it important in today's Air Force to publicize this sort of thing? Photo op? PA propaganda? Caring leader? I'm not sure it's an either/or proposition.

It is time for me to rain on the parade, so everyone needs to run and get their umbrellas .....

The picture is very precious; however that situation is very inappropriate. Here's why...

1. When I look at that picture and read the caption next to the picture, I see a relationship between the Colonel and the Airman that has become personal and unduly familiar. What do we call an "unduly familiar relationship"? Hint: the word begins with the letter "f" and has 14 letters.

If the Colonel gave the Airmen a loan, people might say that the Colonel was just being helpful. But the Colonel can not give the Airman a loan, because if she does, then their relationship has become unduly familiar. And what is that word for an "unduly familiar relationship"?

If the Airmen were babysitting the Officer's baby, then it would be even worse. That type of situation could be construed as personal servitude.

2. Children, especially very young children, should not be brought into work. It is not the place for children.

The Colonel is also setting a bad precedent. Supervisors really shouldn't be babysitting their subordinates' children.

If a military service member needs to bring his or her child to work, then there is a problem. Using the supervisor as a babysitter is not the answer to that problem.


I would bet that it was the mother who snapped it. Pretty close relationship.

Yep. And that's the problem.


Kids are adorable, who wouldn't want to hangout with a little one for awhile?

Me.

Note to all readers: Even thought I have plenty of free time, I am not available for babysitting services. Keep your brats well clear of me.

"I think God gives us children so death won't come as such a disappointment." ~Evelyn Harper, the mother on the sitcom "Two and a Half Men" (best sitcom ever)

"I like children - fried." ~W. C. Fields

“The only thing I can say about Mr. W. C. Fields, whom I have admired since the day he advanced upon Baby LeRoy with an icepick, is this: Any man who hates babies and dogs can’t be all bad.” ~Leo Rosten

And from a more serious movie...

"I'm out at sea three weeks out of every month, and when I'm back at port I don't have time for this daddy stuff 'cause that's not who I am." ~Byron Mayo, the father of Zack Mayo in the movie "An Officer and a Gentleman"

Absinthe Anecdote
11-23-2014, 11:34 AM
It is time for me to rain on the parade, so everyone needs to run and get their umbrellas .....

The picture is very precious; however that situation is very inappropriate. Here's why...

1. When I look at that picture and read the caption next to the picture, I see a relationship between the Colonel and the Airman that has become personal and unduly familiar. What do we call an "unduly familiar relationship"? Hint: the word begins with the letter "f" and has 14 letters.

If the Colonel gave the Airmen a loan, people might say that the Colonel was just being helpful. But the Colonel can not give the Airman a loan, because if she does, then their relationship has become unduly familiar. And what is that word for an "unduly familiar relationship"?

If the Airmen were babysitting the Officer's baby, then it would be even worse. That type of situation could be construed as personal servitude.

2. Children, especially very young children, should not be brought into work. It is not the place for children.

The Colonel is also setting a bad precedent. Supervisors really shouldn't be babysitting their subordinates' children.

If a military service member needs to bring his or her child to work, then there is a problem. Using the supervisor as a babysitter is not the answer to that problem.



Yep. And that's the problem.



Me.

Note to all readers: Even thought I have plenty of free time, I am not available for babysitting services. Keep your brats well clear of me.

"I think God gives us children so death won't come as such a disappointment." ~Evelyn Harper, the mother on the sitcom "Two and a Half Men" (best sitcom ever)

"I like children - fried." ~W. C. Fields

“The only thing I can say about Mr. W. C. Fields, whom I have admired since the day he advanced upon Baby LeRoy with an icepick, is this: Any man who hates babies and dogs can’t be all bad.” ~Leo Rosten

And from a more serious movie...

"I'm out at sea three weeks out of every month, and when I'm back at port I don't have time for this daddy stuff 'cause that's not who I am." ~Byron Mayo, the father of Zack Mayo in the movie "An Officer and a Gentleman"

I disagree, kids should be allowed in the work place. Even at missile silos, perfect environment for little ones when you think about it.

It is very secure down there, so they'll feel safe, and quiet too, so they can take naps.

Even the Navy could do this! Look at all that wasted space on an aircraft carrier.

A big wide open flight deck for them to run and play. Not to mention all that fresh sea air.

Children would just love the steam catapult, and it would be heart warming to see a group of laughing kids playing jump rope with that big arresting cable that whips across the flight deck.

You aren't thinking progressively! Exposing kids to the military workplace would help recruitment.

Stop acting like a grouch!

LogDog
11-23-2014, 10:39 PM
I disagree, kids should be allowed in the work place. Even at missile silos, perfect environment for little ones when you think about it.

It is very secure down there, so they'll feel safe, and quiet too, so they can take naps.

Even the Navy could do this! Look at all that wasted space on an aircraft carrier.

A big wide open flight deck for them to run and play. Not to mention all that fresh sea air.

Children would just love the steam catapult, and it would be heart warming to see a group of laughing kids playing jump rope with that big arresting cable that whips across the flight deck.

You aren't thinking progressively! Exposing kids to the military workplace would help recruitment.

Stop acting like a grouch!
Interesting observation. The only problem I see is when a kid "accidentally" get launched off the carrier by the steam catapult all the paper work you'd have to file to explain what happened. Launch one little kid a half-mile into the ocean and there goes your end-of-tour medal.

fufu
11-24-2014, 03:26 AM
It is time for me to rain on the parade, so everyone needs to run and get their umbrellas .....

The picture is very precious; however that situation is very inappropriate. Here's why...

1. When I look at that picture and read the caption next to the picture, I see a relationship between the Colonel and the Airman that has become personal and unduly familiar. What do we call an "unduly familiar relationship"? Hint: the word begins with the letter "f" and has 14 letters.

If the Colonel gave the Airmen a loan, people might say that the Colonel was just being helpful. But the Colonel can not give the Airman a loan, because if she does, then their relationship has become unduly familiar. And what is that word for an "unduly familiar relationship"?

If the Airmen were babysitting the Officer's baby, then it would be even worse. That type of situation could be construed as personal servitude.

Giving someone a loan is drastically different than watching their kid for a few minutes. i don't see the relationship as inappropriate. I see it as a being nice to someone, why is that wrong?



2. Children, especially very young children, should not be brought into work. It is not the place for children.

That depends on the workcenter. Sure, I wouldn't take my kid to work with me if I worked in a prison. But an office? I allow my SSgts to bring their kids to work if needed(example: Dr appt in the morning, but after the duty day begins). We've never had an issue or disruption.



The Colonel is also setting a bad precedent. Supervisors really shouldn't be babysitting their subordinates' children.

If a military service member needs to bring his or her child to work, then there is a problem. Using the supervisor as a babysitter is not the answer to that problem.

Why the heck not? Do you remember what its like to live off E3 pay? I've watched my "subordinates" kids before...for free. Or, I've watched the kids of a deployed member so his spouse can have a few hours of sanity. Again, what is wrong with that? Its called taking care of each other....and it used to be encouraged.

Attitudes like yours is why many military people for alienated from other members. People are too worried about their reputation...or perception of others.

USN - Retired
11-24-2014, 06:54 AM
Giving someone a loan is drastically different than watching their kid for a few minutes. i don't see the relationship as inappropriate. I see it as a being nice to someone, why is that wrong?



That depends on the workcenter. Sure, I wouldn't take my kid to work with me if I worked in a prison. But an office? I allow my SSgts to bring their kids to work if needed(example: Dr appt in the morning, but after the duty day begins). We've never had an issue or disruption.



Why the heck not? Do you remember what its like to live off E3 pay? I've watched my "subordinates" kids before...for free. Or, I've watched the kids of a deployed member so his spouse can have a few hours of sanity. Again, what is wrong with that? Its called taking care of each other....and it used to be encouraged.

Attitudes like yours is why many military people for alienated from other members. People are too worried about their reputation...or perception of others.

The interactions between military personnel, especially between officers and enlisted, should be strictly professional. When we start babysitting each other's children, the relationship becomes personal. Once the relationship becomes personal, you have fraternization. Fraternization is a problem. Even the perception of fraternization is a problem.

Furthermore, kids should not be in the workplace, and that includes offices.

technomage1
11-24-2014, 09:54 AM
I don't have much of a problem with it. If it was lower rank looking after higher ranks child then I could see how that could be construed as unfair pressure on the lower ranking and therefore inappropriate. As it is, it's just a nice thing to do. Who knows, maybe she misses when her kids were little and enjoyed it as a result. Some people do. I'm not one of them, as it happens, but I understand the longing.

sandsjames
11-24-2014, 02:09 PM
I'm not sure what the issue is here. People bitch about leadership not caring about its people. If we go on the assumption that this wasn't something planned for a photo op, then I feel it's no big deal. I'm sure this isn't an everyday thing, and I'll bet that this Commander would have done the same for others, as well. Good on her for not being one of those that preaches taking care of the troops, then doing nothing to actually follow through.

Absinthe Anecdote
11-24-2014, 03:17 PM
It isn't a big deal to bring your kid into an office environment for 30 minutes or so if you are caught in a tight spot.

Situations like that happen sometimes. I doubt that airman is continually being caught in a bind without childcare are either. If she were, they wouldn't be going all "goo goo" over a baby in the office. I think it was a rare thing, which is probably what made it seem special enough to tweet it.

Despite that being one hell of a cute photo, I don't think it automatically makes that Colonel the world's best leader. Most every female I have known in my life, loves to hold babies. She might very well be an awesome leader, but that photo isn't proof of it.

Where the hell is Alfredo? He tossed this question out to us without explaining what he thought about it.

Rusty Jones
11-24-2014, 03:24 PM
I'm actually scared shitless for the Airman whose child the Colonel is watching. If a Colonel EVER has to watch my child, I expect to be getting the boot due to my Family Care Plan falling through.

Absinthe Anecdote
11-24-2014, 03:30 PM
People bitch about leadership not caring about its people.

"Sandsjames calling Kettle... Sandsjames calling Kettle... You are black, repeat, You are black"

You are the loudest voice in here that criticizes everything the Air Force does. How you aren't bursting into flames right now, I'll never know.

The vast majority of people in leadership positions really do care about their people.
Some aren't great at being actual leaders, but they are still caring people.

Measure Man
11-24-2014, 03:37 PM
The interactions between military personnel, especially between officers and enlisted, should be strictly professional. When we start babysitting each other's children, the relationship becomes personal. Once the relationship becomes personal, you have fraternization. Fraternization is a problem. Even the perception of fraternization is a problem.

Furthermore, kids should not be in the workplace, and that includes offices.


I'm actually scared shitless for the Airman whose child the Colonel is watching. If a Colonel EVER has to watch my child, I expect to be getting the boot due to my Family Care Plan falling through.

So much silliness...LOL.

I can see the headlines now: "Female Colonel holds baby: Courtmartialed for fraternization, Airman kicked out for Family Care Plan fail."

LOL...you guys have really outdone yourselves...it takes a special kind of talent to find problems with this picture...congrats.

Rusty Jones
11-24-2014, 03:40 PM
So much silliness...LOL.

I can see the headlines now: "Female Colonel holds baby: Courtmartialed for fraternization, Airman kicked out for Family Care Plan fail."

LOL...you guys have really outdone yourselves...it takes a special kind of talent to find problems with this picture...congrats.

There's what this photo shows, and then there's the reality that the majority of us are fully aware of.

sandsjames
11-24-2014, 03:46 PM
"Sandsjames calling Kettle... Sandsjames calling Kettle... You are black, repeat, You are black"

You are the loudest voice in here that criticizes everything the Air Force does. How you aren't bursting into flames right now, I'll never know.

The vast majority of people in leadership positions really do care about their people.
Some aren't great at being actual leaders, but they are still caring people.

One time I'd like to see you respond without being a dick...

I don't criticize everything the AF does. I criticize the hypocrisy of AF leadership. This is one time (if everything is as simple as the picture) that the leader in question is actually following through.

Absinthe Anecdote
11-24-2014, 03:56 PM
There's what this photo shows, and then there's the reality that the majority of us are fully aware of.

I'll admit that if one of my airmen showed up for a shift with a baby, there would be a problem. If it were a one time occurrence, I'm sure they'd get a pass.

But if they were called back into work after a shift and didn't have anyone to watch the baby, we would work something out.

Not being able to show up for a recall because of childcare, is a problem. However, every flight I was on that was subject to recalls made sure that people with kids had it covered. We'd find someone on flight with a spouse that would watch the kids.

Besides, that picture depicts none of that.

Measure Man
11-24-2014, 04:02 PM
There's what this photo shows, and then there's the reality that the majority of us are fully aware of.

LOL...and that reality is you're scared shitless for the Airman...hahaha.

This deserves an award or something...can we get a Clown of the Week plaque in here?

Absinthe Anecdote
11-24-2014, 04:05 PM
One time I'd like to see you respond without being a dick...

I don't criticize everything the AF does. I criticize the hypocrisy of AF leadership. This is one time (if everything is as simple as the picture) that the leader in question is actually following through.

She is just being a normal person. Most people I knew in the military were like that.

It isn't a rarity, and you do complain a lot.

Rusty Jones
11-24-2014, 04:12 PM
LOL...and that reality is you're scared shitless for the Airman...hahaha.

This deserves an award or something...can we get a Clown of the Week plaque in here?

Put yourself in the position of the NCO that the Airman directly reports to. Your wing commander is watching your Airman's child. This doesn't bother you at all in the slightest?

Measure Man
11-24-2014, 04:25 PM
Put yourself in the position of the NCO that the Airman directly reports to. Your wing commander is watching your Airman's child. This doesn't bother you at all in the slightest?

I bothers me exactly zero percent.

UncaRastus
11-24-2014, 04:25 PM
I wish that I had a child when I was a Drill Instructor for the USMC. Put the baby into my haversack, carry it around on long runs, and teach the tyke how to use its command voice to order its mother about.

Modus
11-24-2014, 04:31 PM
Put yourself in the position of the NCO that the Airman directly reports to. Your wing commander is watching your Airman's child. This doesn't bother you at all in the slightest?


It pains me, but you have a point. If it was my troop, I would feel pretty stupid.

Absinthe Anecdote
11-24-2014, 04:42 PM
I wish that I had a child when I was a Drill Instructor for the USMC. Put the baby into my haversack, carry it around on long runs, and teach the tyke how to use its command voice to order its mother about.

Haversack?

I think I saw a picture of a WWI Marine carrying one of those through the trenches in France.

sandsjames
11-24-2014, 04:48 PM
Put yourself in the position of the NCO that the Airman directly reports to. Your wing commander is watching your Airman's child. This doesn't bother you at all in the slightest?

Looks to me like the Amn was doing work specifically for this Commander...probably went something like this.

Amn: "Yes, Ma'am, I'll get that done. Just let me get my kid to someone who can keep an eye on here for a little while."

Commander: "Just bring her by here. I'm just sitting at my desk. I can watch her for a few minutes. No need to have to inconvenience someone else for this."

UncaRastus
11-24-2014, 04:48 PM
I don't know if they still exist, but the Marines have a habit of using some really outdated crap. At least 40 some years ago, they did.

sandsjames
11-24-2014, 04:49 PM
She is just being a normal person. Most people I knew in the military were like that.

It isn't a rarity, and you do complain a lot.

So even though we agreed on this topic, you STILL felt the need to try to start an argument with me. You are precious.

Rusty Jones
11-24-2014, 04:53 PM
Looks to me like the Amn was doing work specifically for this Commander...probably went something like this.

Amn: "Yes, Ma'am, I'll get that done. Just let me get my kid to someone who can keep an eye on here for a little while."

Commander: "Just bring her by here. I'm just sitting at my desk. I can watch her for a few minutes. No need to have to inconvenience someone else for this."

Be honest: would YOU say that, if you were that Airman... instead of rogering up, and telling someone closer to you in your chain of command?

Absinthe Anecdote
11-24-2014, 04:58 PM
So even though we agreed on this topic, you STILL felt the need to try to start an argument with me. You are precious.

I am precious! My Grandma used to call me that all the time.

TJMAC77SP
11-24-2014, 05:01 PM
Jesus Christ (that's for those who think I am a fundamentalist Christian AND not Christian enough)

I am with MM on this one. Some of you think (or more accurately read) way too much into the situation.

It is the end of the duty day. Colonel A has a last minute task and asks Airman A to take care of it. The CDC closes in 20 minutes. The fee for being late is compounded by the minute. Airman A asks Colonel A if it would be ok to bring the child to the office for this short task. Colonel A say of course (as any decent human being would, military or not). They aren't engaging the enemy for fuck's sake!

Infant A is just that, an infant so presumably is carried and kept in some kind of infant carrier. Funny how that shit works out.

Colonel A, being that nice human being I mentioned earlier sees infant in this carrier at Airman A's desk and can't resist picking up said infant. Infant, being an infant doesn't care who is holding them and promptly falls asleep (or stays asleep). Colonel A goes back to her desk and works.

There was no 'babysitting' occurring. Merely people working in an office where an infant happens to be.

Pic gets taken.

Pic gets published.

Mouths start wagging.

Let's talk about how the WTC was brought down by explosives planted by the US government..............................

Absinthe Anecdote
11-24-2014, 05:02 PM
Be honest: would YOU say that, if you were that Airman... instead of rogering up, and telling someone closer to you in your chain of command?

We don't know that didn't happen. The NCOIC could have been holding the baby, and the Colonel took it from him.

Like I said before, what woman doesn't fawn and go all goo goo over a baby?

sandsjames
11-24-2014, 05:08 PM
Be honest: would YOU say that, if you were that Airman... instead of rogering up, and telling someone closer to you in your chain of command?

First, what is "rogering up"?

Second, it's quite possible that the Amn in questioned worked directly for the Vice Commander as an aide, so there was nobody else in the CoC.

Certain jobs around the AF are like this more than you may think. Staff jobs being one, and medical being the other. I was in the dentist chair one day while the dentist (Major) and the assistant (SrA) were talking about the party they were at the previous weekend.

USN - Retired
11-24-2014, 05:24 PM
Good on her for not being one of those that preaches taking care of the troops, then doing nothing to actually follow through.

"Taking care of our troops" doesn't mean that we babysit their children.

I don't want to babysit children, even for a short time. Does that mean that I am not a team player? Should I receive a lower grade on my fitrep or eval because I don't want to babysit children, even for a short time?


So much silliness...LOL.

I can see the headlines now: "Female Colonel holds baby: Courtmartialed for fraternization, Airman kicked out for Family Care Plan fail."

LOL...you guys have really outdone yourselves...it takes a special kind of talent to find problems with this picture...congrats.

A Court martial might be too severe, but the Colonel should be counseled. She should not be babysitting her Airman's children, even for a short time.

And the command should definitely take another look at the Airman's family care plan.

The picture does look very precious. It does not look professional though. It seems that you do not understand the difference between the word "precious" and the word "professional". They are not the same. The USAF is a military organization (okay, I might be wrong on that point). That picture would be fine if the Colonel is a CDC worker, but she is not. The woman in the picture is a Colonel and a deputy wing commander. She needs to maintain the appearance and demeanor of a Colonel and a deputy wing commander, i.e. a leader of war fighters. Sitting in her office and cuddling her Airman's little baby is not a good way to maintain the appearance and demeanor of a Colonel, a deputy wing commander, and a war fighter. If she wants to cuddle little babies, then she should quit her job as a deputy wing commander and get a job at the CDC.


Put yourself in the position of the NCO that the Airman directly reports to. Your wing commander is watching your Airman's child. This doesn't bother you at all in the slightest?

Good point. At a bare bones minimum, the picture gives the perception of fraternization between the Airman and the Colonel. It puts the Airman's NCO in a awkward position.

Military service members should not bring their children to work with them.

We need to stop trying to be "precious" and try to be more "professional".

sandsjames
11-24-2014, 05:41 PM
"Taking care of our troops" doesn't mean that we babysit their children.

I don't want to babysit children, even for a short time. Does that mean that I am not a team player? Should I receive a lower grade on my fitrep or eval because I don't want to babysit children, even for a short time?



A Court martial might be too severe, but the Colonel should be counseled. She should not be babysitting her Airman's children, even for a short time.

And the command should definitely take another look at the Airman's family care plan.

The picture does look very precious. It does not look professional though. It seems that you do not understand the difference between the word "precious" and the word "professional". They are not the same. The USAF is a military organization (okay, I might be wrong on that point). That picture would be fine if the Colonel is a CDC worker, but she is not. The woman in the picture is a Colonel and a deputy wing commander. She needs to maintain the appearance and demeanor of a Colonel and a deputy wing commander, i.e. a leader of war fighters. Sitting in her office and cuddling her Airman's little baby is not a good way to maintain the appearance and demeanor of a Colonel, a deputy wing commander, and a war fighter. If she wants to cuddle little babies, then she should quit her job as a deputy wing commander and get a job at the CDC.



Good point. At a bare bones minimum, the picture gives the perception of fraternization between the Airman and the Colonel. It puts the Airman's NCO in a awkward position.

Military service members should not bring their children to work with them.

We need to stop trying to be "precious" and try to be more "professional".

Coming from a hater of women and children, your response doesn't surprise me.

As has been said, we don't know the situation. It's possible the girl came by the office, after duty hours, with her baby and the Commander wanted to hold it.

Measure Man
11-24-2014, 05:57 PM
"Taking care of our troops" doesn't mean that we babysit their children.

I don't want to babysit children, even for a short time. Does that mean that I am not a team player? Should I receive a lower grade on my fitrep or eval because I don't want to babysit children, even for a short time?



A Court martial might be too severe, but the Colonel should be counseled. She should not be babysitting her Airman's children, even for a short time.

And the command should definitely take another look at the Airman's family care plan.

The picture does look very precious. It does not look professional though. It seems that you do not understand the difference between the word "precious" and the word "professional". They are not the same. The USAF is a military organization (okay, I might be wrong on that point). That picture would be fine if the Colonel is a CDC worker, but she is not. The woman in the picture is a Colonel and a deputy wing commander. She needs to maintain the appearance and demeanor of a Colonel and a deputy wing commander, i.e. a leader of war fighters. Sitting in her office and cuddling her Airman's little baby is not a good way to maintain the appearance and demeanor of a Colonel, a deputy wing commander, and a war fighter. If she wants to cuddle little babies, then she should quit her job as a deputy wing commander and get a job at the CDC.



Good point. At a bare bones minimum, the picture gives the perception of fraternization between the Airman and the Colonel. It puts the Airman's NCO in a awkward position.

Military service members should not bring their children to work with them.

We need to stop trying to be "precious" and try to be more "professional".

Now that you've put it this way...I think I've changed my mind.

Oh wait, no I haven't...I still think this is the dumbest thing I've read in quite awhile.

Rainmaker
11-24-2014, 06:36 PM
This type of stuff is why Wimmins don't belong in the military. If they wanted you to have babies they'd issue em to us in a duffle bag at basic. This picture must strike fear in the heart of ISIS-RA-EL

USN - Retired
11-24-2014, 08:16 PM
Coming from a hater of women and children, your response doesn't surprise me.

As has been said, we don't know the situation. It's possible the girl came by the office, after duty hours, with her baby and the Commander wanted to hold it.



Now that you've put it this way...I think I've changed my mind.

Oh wait, no I haven't...I still think this is the dumbest thing I've read in quite awhile.

You two might be great CDC workers; although, I'd recommend that you two stay out of the combat arms. You two obviously don't have what it takes to be a war fighter.

You two can go play with the children now. Let us know if any of the children start to bully you.

USN - Retired
11-24-2014, 08:21 PM
This type of stuff is why Wimmins don't belong in the military. If they wanted you to have babies they'd issue em to us in a duffle bag at basic. This picture must strike fear in the heart of ISIS-RA-EL

...but the picture is just so precious.

fufu
11-24-2014, 08:36 PM
You two might be great CDC workers; although, I'd recommend that you two stay out of the combat arms. You two obviously don't have what it takes to be a war fighter.

Please tell us about your "war fighter" experiences? What did you do in the Navy? Cook? Cop? Entomology?

Measure Man
11-24-2014, 08:39 PM
You two might be great CDC workers; although, I'd recommend that you two stay out of the combat arms. You two obviously don't have what it takes to be a war fighter.

You two can go play with the children now. Let us know if any of the children start to bully you.

Yes, I can really see how someone holding a baby for a few minutes might really throw your war plan out of whack...LOL.

79

USN - Retired
11-24-2014, 09:03 PM
Please tell us about your "war fighter" experiences? What did you do in the Navy? Cook? Cop? Entomology?

If you are really interested in me, then start a new thread about me and I'll respond to your questions on that new thread at my convenience. This thread is probably not the proper place to discuss me, and I don't want to be accused of taking a thread off topic.

USN - Retired
11-24-2014, 09:05 PM
Yes, I can really see how someone holding a baby for a few minutes might really throw your war plan out of whack...LOL.

79

You are so off base today. You are comparing apples and oranges. and grasping at straws...
http://www.babygaga.com/t-596904/this-is-sweet.html

John Gebhardt was not babysitting a subordinate's child. John Gebhardt was caring for an injured child in a combat zone. There was no military fraternization issue because the child's parents were not even in the US military.

It appears that you don't even understand the concept of fraternization. Are you sure that you really were in the US military, or are you just pretending that you were in the US military?

fufu
11-24-2014, 09:38 PM
If you are really interested in me, then start a new thread about me and I'll respond to your questions on that new thread at my convenience. This thread is probably not the proper place to discuss me, and I don't want to be accused of taking a thread off topic.

So, none. got it.

USN - Retired
11-24-2014, 09:42 PM
Let's see if I can explain it to you all this way...

1. Let's say we see a male officer hugging a female enlisted person for approximately 20 seconds. Let's even assume that it was a completely non-sexual hug. Is that hug okay? I think most people would say no. There is obviously a perception of fraternization in that case.

2. Let's say we see a male officer hugging the civilian wife of a male enlisted person for approximately 20 seconds. Again, let's assume that it was a completely non-sexual hug. Is that hug okay? I think most people would still say no. There is a perception that something is not right in that case.

3. In the first picture of this thread, we see a VERY senior officer holding the baby of an enlisted person, possibly a very junior enlisted person.

Once you have any kind of physical contact of an intimate nature, even if the contact is completely non-sexual, you will have a perception of fraternization, especially in this day and age. The only exception may possibly be a quick handshake. The "precious" picture in the first page of this thread of the Colonel, a VERY high ranking officer, and the baby of an Airman, possibly a relatively low ranking enlisted person gives me the perception of some kind of fraternization between the Colonel and the Airman.

In order to maintain good order and discipline, military service members must respect the differences in rank. When I look at the picture in the first page of this thread, I see a situation in which the differences in rank are not being respected.

The "fraternization" line can be difficult to see at times. We don't want to cross it. In this day and age, I wouldn't even want to get close to that line.

USN - Retired
11-24-2014, 09:44 PM
So, none. got it.

That's not what I said. I was on a P-3C crew. I have many stories to tell about my time in the P-3C, but this thread is not the place.

Try to stay on topic.

Stalwart
11-24-2014, 10:28 PM
Keeping in mind that the Col is in the Air Force, a different culture than the USA, USMC & USN, not saying better or worse ... just different. While I probably would not have seen a USMC battalion commander do this, my DDG CO was very kid friendly at command picnics, Tiger Cruises etc.

Just after we got back from China (4 or 5 days) there was a command event and we went with our daughter. She is all excited and runs up and grabs the leg of the commander (4-star), he picks her up and just starts in with the child talk and she eats it up. I apologize and he says "don't worry about it, we have a dozen grand kids. Grab some food and she will be here when you get back." I thought it was nice to see him being just a regular guy for a few minutes.


I'm not sure what the issue is here. People bitch about leadership not caring about its people. If we go on the assumption that this wasn't something planned for a photo op, then I feel it's no big deal. I'm sure this isn't an everyday thing, and I'll bet that this Commander would have done the same for others, as well. Good on her for not being one of those that preaches taking care of the troops, then doing nothing to actually follow through.

News flash, some people just like to bitch. Or similarly ...

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/187/824/media_http26mediatumb_uafbm.jpg.scaled500.jpg

Absinthe Anecdote
11-24-2014, 10:41 PM
This type of stuff is why Wimmins don't belong in the military. If they wanted you to have babies they'd issue em to us in a duffle bag at basic. This picture must strike fear in the heart of ISIS-RA-EL

So ISIS is really a creation of Israel?

Measure Man
11-24-2014, 11:11 PM
News flash, some people just like to bitch.

+1 The real heart of the issue.

Sgt HULK
11-24-2014, 11:24 PM
we bitch about shitty leaders, we bitch about out of touch leaders. we have leaders step up and do whatever possible to help and people bitch. fuck people

TJMAC77SP
11-25-2014, 12:49 AM
That's not what I said. I was on a P-3C crew. I have many stories to tell about my time in the P-3C, but this thread is not the place.

Try to stay on topic.

So, just to keep this straight, at what level 'war fighter' do you put a P-3C crew at? Don't get me wrong I am not refuting your claim but you threw this at two MTF members with the intimation that I can only assume was you were a war fighter and they weren't. I want to get definitions straight here.

Of course, being a P-3 crew member or even a war fighter has frapping zero to do with the topic of this thread but I am so curious of the definitions you are laboring under.

This thread has officially gone down the fucking rabbit hole. War fighters, real men, military mentality. officers hugging subordinates for 20 seconds............Re-Goddamn-diculous.

TJMAC77SP
11-25-2014, 12:51 AM
Keeping in mind that the Col is in the Air Force, a different culture than the USA, USMC & USN, not saying better or worse ... just different. While I probably would not have seen a USMC battalion commander do this, my DDG CO was very kid friendly at command picnics, Tiger Cruises etc.

Just after we got back from China (4 or 5 days) there was a command event and we went with our daughter. She is all excited and runs up and grabs the leg of the commander (4-star), he picks her up and just starts in with the child talk and she eats it up. I apologize and he says "don't worry about it, we have a dozen grand kids. Grab some food and she will be here when you get back." I thought it was nice to see him being just a regular guy for a few minutes.



News flash, some people just like to bitch. Or similarly ...

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/187/824/media_http26mediatumb_uafbm.jpg.scaled500.jpg

Just to stay informed here, you were in a Recon Bn correct?

Stalwart
11-25-2014, 01:04 AM
Just to stay informed here, you were in a Recon Bn correct?

Yes. My infantry assignments:

Marine Ground Defense Security Force, Guantanamo Bay
Marine Security Forces Regiment, Camp David
1st Bn, 2d Marines
2d Reconnaissance Bn
2d Force Reconnaissance Company

USN - Retired
11-25-2014, 01:12 AM
This thread has officially gone down the fucking rabbit hole.

As far as I can tell, this is the first and only time that a thread on this forum has gone down the rabbit hole.

Rainmaker
11-25-2014, 02:00 AM
So ISIS is really a creation of Israel?

http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4508223/isis

There is no longer any such thing as fiction or nonfiction; there’s only narrative

AFKILO7
11-25-2014, 03:20 AM
The way this thread has evolved is amazing to say the least. Hell, I bet a significant majority of threads on this forum are about "shitty, douchebag, asshole, leaders." Then there is this jewel. Here we literally have a snapshot in time of a situation. We know nothing of what rank the "Airmen" was or the events leading up to (and after for that matter) when the picture was taken. Yet, collectively, members in this forum has come up with a multitude of potential scenarios. My personal favorite was the dreaded "f" word.

In my opinion the only "f" word I could come up with fell in between the words, "come the _______ on." We get it you were a badass back in your day, I bet you piss napalm too right? In the end we all have opinions, some of them are a bit more extreme than the others. Personally, what I got from the snapshot given to us is this, "there is hope in the world." In a time where we all complain about how the Air Force is turning into a dog-eat-dog force and personnel cuts are insane, there are still leaders who are well...human.

Happy Thanksgiving you shitheads. I sincerely hope each and everyone of you are able to spend time with your loved ones. Be safe.

TJMAC77SP
11-25-2014, 03:31 AM
Yes. My infantry assignments:

Marine Ground Defense Security Force, Guantanamo Bay
Marine Security Forces Regiment, Camp David
1st Bn, 2d Marines
2d Reconnaissance Bn
2d Force Reconnaissance Company

So, pretty much all male units?

I ask because that very obviously frames the attitude.

TJMAC77SP
11-25-2014, 03:32 AM
As far as I can tell, this is the first and only time that a thread on this forum has gone down the rabbit hole.

Oh, absolutely not the first time, nor the last

Rainmaker
11-25-2014, 03:42 AM
...but the picture is just so precious.

True. But, Rainmaker still thinks the one with the two gals breastfeeding in BDU's was better.

Niirs
11-25-2014, 06:50 AM
Put yourself in the position of the NCO that the Airman directly reports to. Your wing commander is watching your Airman's child. This doesn't bother you at all in the slightest?

Bothers me zero percent as well - it seems like a good hearted photo. The CC is not at home babysitting this Airman's child, the Airman simply had some things to take care of, assume it was quick in nature, after normal work hours and the CC held the child for a bit. Good grief, we are human not rank structured robots. I don't think you truly understand that taking care of our Airmen includes their families, and that doesn't just mean asking them if everything is ok. Its a Commander holding someone's child, please go on about how this is ruining the fabric of our Air Force.

Absinthe Anecdote
11-25-2014, 09:14 AM
http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4508223/isis

There is no longer any such thing as fiction or nonfiction; there’s only narrative

I can only hope you are joking with posting that clip of discussion about a book from 1990.

That has nothing to do with the present day ISIS.

You might as well claim that photo of the Colonel holding the baby is a sinister plot crafted by the Illuminati to gain control of ICBM launch codes.

Are you serious with that crap?

EDIT:

Ok, your comment about there being nothing but the narrative just registered with me.

So what's your narrative?

Because I've noticed some themes in the Rainmaker persona that are anti-black, anti-female, and once in a while you tell us that the Jews are secretly controlling the US.

Is that about right?

Stalwart
11-25-2014, 10:03 AM
So, pretty much all male units?

I ask because that very obviously frames the attitude.

Yes, those units were all male (some females in support roles.). I also was assigned to a couple units that were gender integrated.

Attitude?

Rainmaker
11-25-2014, 02:40 PM
I can only hope you are joking with posting that clip of discussion about a book from 1990.

That has nothing to do with the present day ISIS.

You might as well claim that photo of the Colonel holding the baby is a sinister plot crafted by the Illuminati to gain control of ICBM launch codes.

Are you serious with that crap?

EDIT:

Ok, your comment about there being nothing but the narrative just registered with me.

So what's your narrative?

Because I've noticed some themes in the Rainmaker persona that are anti-black, anti-female, and once in a while you tell us that the Jews are secretly controlling the US.

Is that about right?

No, Not right Abs.

by" anti-black" you really mean someone that thinks blacks are capable of being and should be responsible and accountable for their actions.

by "anti-female" you really mean someone that thinks that the Feminist movement is Lesbian, occult, social engineering and not good for society.

by "jews" you really mean elite Zionists hell bent on destroying all forms human identity based on race, religion, nation and family (for every country but one) Well, it ain't exactly a "secret" now is it?

Although you fancy yourself as some kind of enlightened hybrid libertarian on social issues and a neocon hawk on foreign policy. You strike Rainmaker as nothing more than the typical intel analyst trapped in the bureaucracy groupthink (which comes from too much feathering of their own nest).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

stick to reading paul reuter's. and quit tryin to put Rainmaker in a box. gnomesayin?

Absinthe Anecdote
11-25-2014, 04:16 PM
No, Not right Abs.

by" anti-black" you really mean someone that thinks blacks are capable of being and should be responsible and accountable for their actions.

by "anti-female" you really mean someone that thinks that the Feminist movement is Lesbian, occult, social engineering and not good for society.

by "jews" you really mean elite Zionists hell bent on destroying all forms human identity based on race, religion, nation and family (for every country but one) Well, it ain't exactly a "secret" now is it?

Although you fancy yourself as some kind of enlightened hybrid libertarian on social issues and a neocon hawk on foreign policy. You strike Rainmaker as nothing more than the typical intel analyst trapped in the bureaucracy groupthink (which comes from too much feathering of their own nest).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

stick to reading paul reuter's. and quit tryin to put Rainmaker in a box. gnomesayin?

You are putting yourself in a box with your long running narrative on race, gender and politics.

I'm just trying to understand what that narrative is, because it is often muddled, confusing, and intentionally serpentine.

PS

If I had a confirmation bias, I wouldn't be asking you to explain your narrative to me.

What I really wish you'd do is create a Rainmaker Manifesto thread. Then it would be out in the open for all to see.

TJMAC77SP
11-25-2014, 04:25 PM
Yes, those units were all male (some females in support roles.). I also was assigned to a couple units that were gender integrated.

Attitude?

There was no implied agenda in my post.

I was referring to the attitude of the members. You said you couldn't see your Bn commander doing this and I understand given the all male make-up. Although, men can be suckers for infants as well as women.

TJMAC77SP
11-25-2014, 04:27 PM
Man...............we owe Capt A. a wedgie for this thread don't we?

Rainmaker
11-25-2014, 05:02 PM
You are putting yourself in a box with your long running narrative on race, gender and politics.

I'm just trying to understand what that narrative is, because it is often muddled, confusing, and intentionally serpentine.

PS

If I had a confirmation bias, I wouldn't be asking you to explain your narrative to me.

What I really wish you'd do is create a Rainmaker Manifesto thread. Then it would be out in the open for all to see.


No thanks... Rainmaker comes here for free discussion of ideas and not to publish manifestos.... The man who never alters his opinion is like standing water, and breeds reptiles of the mind.

Absinthe Anecdote
11-25-2014, 05:09 PM
Man...............we owe Capt A. a wedgie for this thread don't we?

Heavens no! That could be considered hazing.

Random observation, the same character that objects to a commander holding a baby, because it is fraternization, probably defends ritualistic hazing.

You know, that whole Polly Wogs and Humpback bullshit about crossing the equator.

LogDog
11-25-2014, 06:21 PM
The interactions between military personnel, especially between officers and enlisted, should be strictly professional. When we start babysitting each other's children, the relationship becomes personal. Once the relationship becomes personal, you have fraternization. Fraternization is a problem. Even the perception of fraternization is a problem.

Furthermore, kids should not be in the workplace, and that includes offices.
As someone said before, there is a difference between the branches but there are similarities. In the field, or at sea for you, you won't bring your children along but when you're at your base sometimes that may not be the case depending upon your duty section. In most administrative/medical career fields there is leeway depending upon circumstances. A child in the duty section after duty hours while the parent is putting in overtime isn't unknown or unheard of.

As for fraternizing simply because a commander is holding an airman's baby is stretching the definition to suit your point of view. IMO, it is not fraternizing but it is a human response to the needs of the baby and airman. Most people, you being an exception, when placed in the same situation would do exactly what the commander did without considering it an act of fraternization. Also, remember, the picture is officially released by Malstrom AFB and no doubt her Wing King is aware of it but as far was we know no action has been taken against her. Why? Maybe because she didn't do anything wrong and like I said above, it was the human thing to do.

USN - Retired
11-25-2014, 07:18 PM
As someone said before, there is a difference between the branches but there are similarities. In the field, or at sea for you, you won't bring your children along but when you're at your base sometimes that may not be the case depending upon your duty section. In most administrative/medical career fields there is leeway depending upon circumstances. A child in the duty section after duty hours while the parent is putting in overtime isn't unknown or unheard of.

As for fraternizing simply because a commander is holding an airman's baby is stretching the definition to suit your point of view. IMO, it is not fraternizing but it is a human response to the needs of the baby and airman. Most people, you being an exception, when placed in the same situation would do exactly what the commander did without considering it an act of fraternization. Also, remember, the picture is officially released by Malstrom AFB and no doubt her Wing King is aware of it but as far was we know no action has been taken against her. Why? Maybe because she didn't do anything wrong and like I said above, it was the human thing to do.

1. You simply don't understand the concept of fraternization. Of course, most people on this forum don't seem to understand the concept of fraternization. We need to respect the differences in rank. When a Colonel is taking care of an Airman's baby, the differences in rank are not being respected.

2. A military service member should be able to go work when he needs to go to work. All military service members are basically on-call 24/7. If a military service member NEEDS to take his child with him to work, then that person should probably not be in the military (and yes, that same concept also applies to female military service members).

I did often see military service members (and also civil service employees) bring their children to work with them because they had no other options. It was a sad situation, but their sad situation doesn't make it right to bring children into a work environment.

Here is the only reasonable exception that I see: Giving a well behaved child a quick tour of his or her parents work place after normal working hours is usually okay (under most circumstances) as long as the parent is off duty and not working. Anything other than that is inappropriate.

USN - Retired
11-25-2014, 07:19 PM
True. But, Rainmaker still thinks the one with the two gals breastfeeding in BDU's was better.

1. A picture of war fighters (*giggle*)...

http://images.jobsnhire.com/data/images/full/1449/ad-created-by-military-moms-at-fairchild-air-base-in-washington-to-end-breast-feeding-stigma.jpg?w=550

ISIS must be so scared. After looking at that picture, I think that Obama should probably stop provoking Russia and China. We may not do so well in the next cold war.

2. Is this a picture of a war fighter???

http://t.qkme.me/3pj75l.jpg

Rainmaker
11-25-2014, 07:45 PM
1. A picture of war fighters (*giggle*)...

http://images.jobsnhire.com/data/images/full/1449/ad-created-by-military-moms-at-fairchild-air-base-in-washington-to-end-breast-feeding-stigma.jpg?w=550

ISIS must be so scared. After looking at that picture, I think that Obama should probably stop provoking Russia and China. We may not do so well in the next cold war.

2. Is this a picture of a war fighter???

http://t.qkme.me/3pj75l.jpg

Yep, that's the one. Damn it, that kid has a big head.

sandsjames
11-25-2014, 08:31 PM
1. You simply don't understand the concept of fraternization. Of course, most people on this forum don't seem to understand the concept of fraternization. We need to respect the differences in rank. When a Colonel is taking care of an Airman's baby, the differences in rank are not being respected.

2. A military service member should be able to go work when he needs to go to work. All military service members are basically on-call 24/7. If a military service member NEEDS to take his child with him to work, then that person should probably not be in the military (and yes, that same concept also applies to female military service members).

I did often see military service members (and also civil service employees) bring their children to work with them because they had no other options. It was a sad situation, but their sad situation doesn't make it right to bring children into a work environment.

Here is the only reasonable exception that I see: Giving a well behaved child a quick tour of his or her parents work place after normal working hours is usually okay (under most circumstances) as long as the parent is off duty and not working. Anything other than that is inappropriate.

What did you see in that picture that this was anything else? What if you had just seen a picture and not the narrative that went along with it?

LogDog
11-25-2014, 11:38 PM
1. You simply don't understand the concept of fraternization. Of course, most people on this forum don't seem to understand the concept of fraternization. We need to respect the differences in rank. When a Colonel is taking care of an Airman's baby, the differences in rank are not being respected.
Oh please, don't think you know what I know or what I've experienced because when you say something like what you posted it tells me You Don't Know Jack!
Fraternization involves an inappropriate relationship. Helping with an airman's baby isn't fraternization. As a SNCO, I and my shop often worked overtime and I had no problems with them bringing their kids in because:
1: It saved them money in child care fees.
2. The kids were in a safe environment
3. The parents still had control over them

We had very young kids and they would come over and talk with me in my office because they felt comfortable doing that. There were times when I'd hold a child while the parent is taking care of business or engaged in physical (their) work. That isn't fraternization nor an inappropriate relationship even though our ranks were separated by three-four grades; it's helping out to make sure our work is completed and our airmen are taken care of. Now you may think that's fraternization but you're Navy, not Air Force, and it appears you have a lower threshold when it come to that. I suppose you also think it's fraternization when I helped a married E5 and E-6 and their kids move from base (closure) housing.


2. A military service member should be able to go work when he needs to go to work. All military service members are basically on-call 24/7. If a military service member NEEDS to take his child with him to work, then that person should probably not be in the military (and yes, that same concept also applies to female military service members).
Every member with a dependent, in this case a child, is required to have a plan to take care of that child. There are time when the best plans won't work because they're dependent upon others to take care of the child but can't. The military is flexible enough to accommodate children in the workplace as long as it is the expcetion.


I did often see military service members (and also civil service employees) bring their children to work with them because they had no other options. It was a sad situation, but their sad situation doesn't make it right to bring children into a work environment.
As long as it's not on a recurring basis I have not problem with that as long as the kid is going to daycare or school in the morning or being brought in after duty hours.


Here is the only reasonable exception that I see: Giving a well behaved child a quick tour of his or her parents work place after normal working hours is usually okay (under most circumstances) as long as the parent is off duty and not working. Anything other than that is inappropriate.
I think you need to see the base optometrist because of your myopic vision.

Niirs
11-26-2014, 04:04 AM
1. You simply don't understand the concept of fraternization. Of course, most people on this forum don't seem to understand the concept of fraternization. We need to respect the differences in rank. When a Colonel is taking care of an Airman's baby, the differences in rank are not being respected.



Perhaps the reason you feel most people on this forum don't understand the meaning of fraternization is because you simply don't understand the meaning. The Commander in this picture is holding someone's baby while they catch up on some work. This act does not detract from the authority of the superior or result in, or reasonably create the appearance of, favoritism, misuse of office or position, or the abandonment of organizational goals for personal interests. There is no appearance of a formed personal relationship, this doesn't negatively affect morale, discipline, respect for authority or unit cohesion. By the way, fraternization is defined in the UCMJ and MCM, but each service also has their own policies and definition of fraternization.

I think you are also confusing this Airman as bringing their child to work during a duty day Vs bringing in their child after their normal duty hours to finnish up some work? I agree, Airmen should not bring their children to work during the duty day - I have had my kids in the office after work for an hour here and there while I finish up some things. If my CC would have given my child a hi-five, I wouldn't have thought it was against some AFI. My CC did actually hold my child while at the Airport welcoming me home from a 7 months deployment in Iraq - that didn't negatively affect morale, discipline, respect for authority or unit cohesion.

BL: holding a baby isn't fraternization! In today's Air Force where apparently leadership doesn't care about anyone, why are we all upset when one commander shows care twords and Airman who is at work after duty hours getting the mission done?

LogDog
11-27-2014, 12:41 AM
1. A picture of war fighters (*giggle*)...

http://images.jobsnhire.com/data/images/full/1449/ad-created-by-military-moms-at-fairchild-air-base-in-washington-to-end-breast-feeding-stigma.jpg?w=550

ISIS must be so scared. After looking at that picture, I think that Obama should probably stop provoking Russia and China. We may not do so well in the next cold war.

2. Is this a picture of a war fighter???

http://t.qkme.me/3pj75l.jpg
Is this the picture of a war fighter? (*giggle*)
http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/1371745636_Marvin_the_Martian_by_raelynn36.jpg
Naw, I didn't think so either.

USN - Retired
11-27-2014, 01:57 AM
Over the past year, I have seen numerous media reports about many problems in the USAF ICBM community, i.e. low morale, etc. At first, those media reports seemed so confusing to me. After reading the numerous responses to my posts on this thread, I now have a good and solid understanding why the USAF ICBM community is having so many problems.

I know that you all are busy making your work spaces safe and friendly for children, so I won't take up any more of your time. Good luck (if you are in the USAF ICBM community, you're really going to need it).

LogDog
11-27-2014, 06:34 AM
Over the past year, I have seen numerous media reports about many problems in the USAF ICBM community, i.e. low morale, etc. At first, those media reports seemed so confusing to me. After reading the numerous responses to my posts on this thread, I now have a good and solid understanding why the USAF ICBM community is having so many problems.

I know that you all are busy making your work spaces safe and friendly for children, so I won't take up any more of your time. Good luck (if you are in the USAF ICBM community, you're really going to need it).
Just when we thought you couldn't make yourself look foolish, you went an posted this crap. I think now we know why they Navy has so many skippers being relieved of duty.

Absinthe Anecdote
11-27-2014, 07:26 AM
Just when we thought you couldn't make yourself look foolish, you went an posted this crap. I think now we know why they Navy has so many skippers being relieved of duty.

It's all that weird hazing shit they do when shipboard, Polly Wogs and Humpbacks, plus they make a too big deal about what color pants they wear.

The most ridiculous bullshit surrounds their uniforms. Half of them dressed like some cabin boy from a Herman Melville novel, while the other half runs around in black shirts and khaki pants.

They even wear different color shoes, "look out for that guy, he's wearing brown shoes!"

Don't even get me started about their ridiculous array of head gear. I heard some sailors talking about who had the coolest Dixie Cup.

It's their silliness over privilege and status that enables sexual predators to exploit junior ranking personnel.

That's why they have all those skippers getting relieved.

LogDog
11-27-2014, 06:58 PM
It's all that weird hazing shit they do when shipboard, Polly Wogs and Humpbacks, plus they make a too big deal about what color pants they wear.

The most ridiculous bullshit surrounds their uniforms. Half of them dressed like some cabin boy from a Herman Melville novel, while the other half runs around in black shirts and khaki pants.

They even wear different color shoes, "look out for that guy, he's wearing brown shoes!"

Don't even get me started about their ridiculous array of head gear. I heard some sailors talking about who had the coolest Dixie Cup.

It's their silliness over privilege and status that enables sexual predators to exploit junior ranking personnel.

That's why they have all those skippers getting relieved.
I'm retired AF living in San Diego area for the last 11 years and I'm slowly becoming familiar with some of the Navy traditions and ways of doing business. I know what Polly Wogs are but I haven't heard the term Humpbacks. I don't have a problem with some traditions like Polly Wogs because they can be part of the ship's morale.

As for uniforms, it is strange, from an AF perspective, to switch from a summer uniform to a winter uniform but that's them and thankfully the AF didn't do that while I was in.

Stalwart
11-27-2014, 07:45 PM
It's all that weird hazing shit they do when shipboard, Polly Wogs and Humpbacks, plus they make a too big deal about what color pants they wear.

Shellback ... not humpback



The most ridiculous bullshit surrounds their uniforms. Half of them dressed like some cabin boy from a Herman Melville novel, while the other half runs around in black shirts and khaki pants.

Other way around, E6 and below wear khaki shirts and black pants as their service uniform.


They even wear different color shoes, "look out for that guy, he's wearing brown shoes!"

That is actually a thing that goes way back. Black shoes are typically worn by Chiefs and Officers in the surface and submarine communities when they are wearing khakis and brown shoes are typically worn by those in the aviation community. Back in the early 1900's, all the shoes / boots were a brown rough leather that was smoothed out and polished with black shoe polish. Once the Navy started procuring aircraft and had aviators, the fuel lines ran from the wing to the engine on the front of the plane via the cockpit ... and the aviators didn't polish their boots to try to lessen the flammability of their boots/feet when/if there was a fuel leak & fire.

Absinthe Anecdote
11-27-2014, 08:04 PM
Shellback ... not humpback

LOL

I've been intionally saying that wrong for a while in here and was beginning to wonder if one of you guys would ever jump on it.





Other way around, E6 and below wear khaki shirts and black pants as their service uniform.

The first time I saw that, it looked so bizarre. It reminded me of the Waffen SS, or Mussolini's Secret Police.




That is actually a thing that goes way back. Black shoes are typically worn by Chiefs and Officers in the surface and submarine communities when they are wearing khakis and brown shoes are typically worn by those in the aviation community. Back in the early 1900's, all the shoes / boots were a brown rough leather that was smoothed out and polished with black shoe polish. Once the Navy started procuring aircraft and had aviators, the fuel lines ran from the wing to the engine on the front of the plane via the cockpit ... and the aviators didn't polish their boots to try to lessen the flammability of their boots/feet when/if there was a fuel leak & fire.

On this one you taught me something. :) I knew aviators wore brown shoes, but I didn't know the backstory.

There is also an old slang phrase "Brown Shoe" that means a tough disciplinarian.

I don't think that traces back to the Navy, but to a time when the Army wore brown boots.

Happy Thanksgiving!

SENDBILLMONEY
11-27-2014, 10:43 PM
What does everyone think of this? Is it appropriate? A sign of leadership? Is it important in today's Air Force to publicize this sort of thing? Photo op? PA propaganda? Caring leader? I'm not sure it's an either/or proposition.

78

What do I think? I really wish it hadn't gone out. See below.

Is it appropriate? No. It could set an expectation that supervisors/NCOICs are supposed to do the same. I had people bring older kids to the office here and there, wasn't empowered to shut it down. I don't have to worry about Junior's slip and fall in the workplace or hearing things he has no business hearing.

Is it a sign of leadership? Might be, might not. I'm only seeing one moment there, so I'll decline to opine.

Is it important in today's Air Force to publicize this sort of thing? I think colonels get a metric ass-ton of recognition by virtue of their silver chickens, salutemobiles, etc. I think wing vice commanders get additional bowing and scraping on top of that. An I Heart the Wing Vice FB post is just too cutesy for words. How about snapping a shot of someone doing a lot more work for a lot less pay and a fraction of the recognition? Surely someone is pumping poo out of an aircraft, counting rivets on the flight line, etc. Their baby may be logging some hours under someone else's care as well, with the meter running.

Photo op? Benefit of the doubt extended, I don't think she knew.

PA propaganda? I'll go with either "slow news day" or "someone didn't want to look too hard for someone else to recognize.

Caring leader? Don't know if she cares or not.

Rusty Jones
12-01-2014, 11:31 AM
The first time I saw that, it looked so bizarre. It reminded me of the Waffen SS, or Mussolini's Secret Police.

I really don't miss the service uniform situation before the so-called "peanut butters," where we wore white uniforms that ended up looking like shit in no time flat (E6 and below had to wear them far more often than E7 and above), and blue (really, black) uniforms that were hot as hell during the fall and spring. Both were very sharp looking uniforms, but they were much better to look at than wear.

We needed a year-round service uniform for E6 and below - and the Navy sure as FUCK wasn't going to give us the same dignity as the other services where everyone wears the same uniform, by giving full khakis to E6 and below. Going back to the 1970 era dress uniforms, so that E6 and below would have "salt & peppers?" Out of the question.

So... they Navy gave us two shitty choices to vote on - both have black pants, but the choice was between a grey shirt and a khaki shirt. Both looked shitty, and I suppose everyone decided that khaki/black combo was the less shitty of the two. I think that if they had taken their time, they could have come up with more options for everyone to vote on. But this was obviously rushed.

Stalwart
12-01-2014, 01:27 PM
I will agree that Task Force Uniform was a goat-rope (scientific term).

BENDER56
12-01-2014, 07:53 PM
... As for uniforms, it is strange, from an AF perspective, to switch from a summer uniform to a winter uniform but that's them and thankfully the AF didn't do that while I was in.

I finished out my career at a Navy base -- I couldn't believe the number of different uniforms they had, although I believe they've started eliminating some of them since then.

When I joined the AF in the '80s, we had guidelines (possibly local) that said we could only wear our fatigue shirts untucked or roll the sleeves up (or wear altered short-sleeves) during the warm-weather months. ( I think it was from April through September.)

sandsjames
12-01-2014, 08:09 PM
I finished out my career at a Navy base -- I couldn't believe the number of different uniforms they had, although I believe they've started eliminating some of them since then.

When I joined the AF in the '80s, we had guidelines (possibly local) that said we could only wear our fatigue shirts untucked or roll the sleeves up (or wear altered short-sleeves) during the warm-weather months. ( I think it was from April through September.)

We've actually got quite a few in the AF if you think about the different career fields. Medical has fatigues, services has their chow hall uniform, the gym uniform, and a couple others I've seen them walking around in. The difference being that our different uniforms are pretty localized to career fields.

Airborne
12-02-2014, 02:55 AM
Jesus Christ (that's for those who think I am a fundamentalist Christian AND not Christian enough)

I am with MM on this one. Some of you think (or more accurately read) way too much into the situation.

It is the end of the duty day. Colonel A has a last minute task and asks Airman A to take care of it. The CDC closes in 20 minutes. The fee for being late is compounded by the minute. Airman A asks Colonel A if it would be ok to bring the child to the office for this short task. Colonel A say of course (as any decent human being would, military or not). They aren't engaging the enemy for fuck's sake!

Infant A is just that, an infant so presumably is carried and kept in some kind of infant carrier. Funny how that shit works out.

Colonel A, being that nice human being I mentioned earlier sees infant in this carrier at Airman A's desk and can't resist picking up said infant. Infant, being an infant doesn't care who is holding them and promptly falls asleep (or stays asleep). Colonel A goes back to her desk and works.

There was no 'babysitting' occurring. Merely people working in an office where an infant happens to be.

Pic gets taken.

Pic gets published.

Mouths start wagging.

Let's talk about how the WTC was brought down by explosives planted by the US government..............................

I havent read the thread all the way through and the thread has probably devolved into something rediculous, but I think the bigger point is what the freak was it that couldnt have waited until tomorrow?

TJMAC77SP
12-02-2014, 04:23 AM
I havent read the thread all the way through and the thread has probably devolved into something rediculous, but I think the bigger point is what the freak was it that couldnt have waited until tomorrow?

To quote John Wayne (Re-Goddamn-diculous)

I suppose that is a valid question but knowing wing HQ offices it could have been a critical emergent tasking or something completely benign that could have actually waited a week to get done.

Rusty Jones
12-02-2014, 11:45 AM
I will agree that Task Force Uniform was a goat-rope (scientific term).

And it still is. Most recently, the dress khakis were a fail. I understand that some people want to look like officers/Chiefs in movies from the 1950's but they serve no real practical purpose... even the one that was stated - i.e., the ability to put a coat and tie onto the service khaki when the immediate need to do something formal arises. Yet, there was no word on service khakis allowing for a long sleeved shirt with a closable collar to even do that in the first place. Also, common sense tells us that this "need" doesn't arrive only after you make Chief. It would only stand to reason about a dress coat for the E6 and below "peanut butters" be proposed as well, but that never happened.

Then... there's the E6 and below dress whites. Sure, the new one with the blue piping looks better than the current ones... but, they should really just scrap dress whites all together. No other service has an equivalent to them. The other services simply don't wear a service dress coat in hot weather, except under extremely rare circumstances were certain ceremonies are performed - and then they'd just suck it up for a few hours... which, to me, is a much better deal than having to keep and maintain separate dress white uniforms.

BRUWIN
12-02-2014, 12:56 PM
I think it is a good photo and that should be the end of the conversation really.

giggawatt
12-02-2014, 12:59 PM
Behold! A Bruwin sighting!

BENDER56
12-02-2014, 08:20 PM
We've actually got quite a few in the AF if you think about the different career fields. Medical has fatigues, services has their chow hall uniform, the gym uniform, and a couple others I've seen them walking around in. The difference being that our different uniforms are pretty localized to career fields.

Forgot about those ... which is surprising 'cause I wore the medical whites for 14 years. What did we call all of them -- functional uniforms?

The whites were great. The hospital even laundered and pressed them for us for free. Didn't even need to buy and sew chevrons on them -- all you needed was one set of metal pin-on chevrons, one blue plastic nametag and one AFS badge. Back in the '80s we wore whites every day except for the last Friday "fatigue day" of each month. I never wore my blues unless I was part of some ceremony. I don't think I purchased any replacement uniforms for the first 10 years of my career. My clothing allowance was just an annual bonus.

Also, in the '80s they were phasing out the dark blue, winter-weight, long-sleeved blue shirt. I never bought one but they were sharp-looking.

Sgt HULK
12-03-2014, 07:41 PM
1. You simply don't understand the concept of fraternization. Of course, most people on this forum don't seem to understand the concept of fraternization. We need to respect the differences in rank. When a Colonel is taking care of an Airman's baby, the differences in rank are not being respected.

2. A military service member should be able to go work when he needs to go to work. All military service members are basically on-call 24/7. If a military service member NEEDS to take his child with him to work, then that person should probably not be in the military (and yes, that same concept also applies to female military service members).

I did often see military service members (and also civil service employees) bring their children to work with them because they had no other options. It was a sad situation, but their sad situation doesn't make it right to bring children into a work environment.

Here is the only reasonable exception that I see: Giving a well behaved child a quick tour of his or her parents work place after normal working hours is usually okay (under most circumstances) as long as the parent is off duty and not working. Anything other than that is inappropriate.

I hurt for your future and your life, I really do