PDA

View Full Version : The new sensation



Capt Alfredo
11-09-2014, 04:37 AM
This story seems to be picking up speed in AF circles...

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123430954

VCO
11-09-2014, 06:05 AM
I guess I don't get it.

She failed a PT test and didn't get a decoration, so she got out?

As far as his other comments, especially about her being yelled at by a MSgt. Who in the military hasn't encountered an idiot at some point? I bet we all have. I had a TI threaten to decapitate me and shit down my neck because I stood in the wrong lane as road guard one time. Are we really that soft now?

sandsjames
11-09-2014, 10:00 AM
I guess I don't get it.

She failed a PT test and didn't get a decoration, so she got out?

As far as his other comments, especially about her being yelled at by a MSgt. Who in the military hasn't encountered an idiot at some point? I bet we all have. I had a TI threaten to decapitate me and shit down my neck because I stood in the wrong lane as road guard one time. Are we really that soft now?

I guess if what you take is she got out because she didn't get a dec then that's ok. What I took from it is the point that AF leadership doesn't focus on anything but the bad stuff. She didn't get out because of not getting a dec. She got out because, even with all of the things she did right, the only thing that actually made a difference was the one mistake she made. I think that's the focus, and I think that's where improvements need to be made.

Also, it wasn't the fact that she got yelled at by a MSgt...it's that nobody in her CoC was willing to do anything about it. She took the right steps, trusting the chain, without the results.

It's big picture. This one story is a symptom of a much more wide spread problem that's been eating away at the AF for some time.

Capt Alfredo
11-09-2014, 10:06 AM
I guess if what you take is she got out because she didn't get a dec then that's ok. What I took from it is the point that AF leadership doesn't focus on anything but the bad stuff. She didn't get out because of not getting a dec. She got out because, even with all of the things she did right, the only thing that actually made a difference was the one mistake she made. I think that's the focus, and I think that's where improvements need to be made.

Also, it wasn't the fact that she got yelled at by a MSgt...it's that nobody in her CoC was willing to do anything about it. She took the right steps, trusting the chain, without the results.

It's big picture. This one story is a symptom of a much more wide spread problem that's been eating away at the AF for some time.

Which is why it's been getting such big play in social media circles; it's confirming what many have been thinking for some time now.

sandsjames
11-09-2014, 12:20 PM
Which is why it's been getting such big play in social media circles; it's confirming what many have been thinking for some time now.

Unfortunately, the only response, if any, will be a resiliency type training.

VCO
11-09-2014, 12:46 PM
I guess if what you take is she got out because she didn't get a dec then that's ok. What I took from it is the point that AF leadership doesn't focus on anything but the bad stuff. She didn't get out because of not getting a dec. She got out because, even with all of the things she did right, the only thing that actually made a difference was the one mistake she made. I think that's the focus, and I think that's where improvements need to be made.

Also, it wasn't the fact that she got yelled at by a MSgt...it's that nobody in her CoC was willing to do anything about it. She took the right steps, trusting the chain, without the results.

It's big picture. This one story is a symptom of a much more wide spread problem that's been eating away at the AF for some time.

Great post. However, this is nothing new. Leadership has had issues from time to time since I've been around. What really threw me off was the statement that she failed her pt test because she wasn't in shape to run 1.5miles, but she immediate ly retook her test and passed...huh

VCO
11-09-2014, 12:50 PM
Unfortunately, the only response, if any, will be a resiliency type training.or...we could all be adults and let folks stand on their own merit instead of coddling. Do I agree with the pt standard? No. However, it is a standard and a condition of employment. It sounds like she did great stuff but failed on one standard and didn't get a Dec. I still don't see the big deal.

VCO
11-09-2014, 12:56 PM
Normally, what I have personally seen, if people have issues with pt they either have medical issues (rare), or they don't have their shit together. Normally this is an indicator of other problems.

efmbman
11-09-2014, 01:54 PM
or...we could all be adults and let folks stand on their own merit instead of coddling. Do I agree with the pt standard? No. However, it is a standard and a condition of employment. It sounds like she did great stuff but failed on one standard and didn't get a Dec. I still don't see the big deal.

Emphasis added... that's the part everyone seems to forget. It really is that simple. But, in this day, the continued lack of accountability and personal responsibility take precedence.

Stalwart
11-09-2014, 02:25 PM
I think the author is discussing a bigger point than a single PT Test failure. That said:

She failed a PT test, check.
She got yelled at by a SNCO during a traffic (non-duty) altercation, check.
She deployed twice, once on short notice, check.
She did not get an end of tour award, check.

As far as the SNCO hollering at her, I would speculate that she knew he was a SNCO because he was in uniform ... During a morning or afternoon commute? He may have been an ass, but not sure if the chain of command should weigh in based on whT was in the article since it was a civil matter.

As far as the PT test, she failed and as said, it is (like it or not) a standard of employment. If she turn around and did it over and passed, she was not taking it seriously; something I have seen fairly in-shape Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen & Marines all do. She is accountable for her dragging ass on it.

Two deployments in one enlistment, good for her, I have seen people do a lot less, I have seen people do a lot more.

No end of tour award, I am a not familiar with her command or the Air Force standard/method ... If her supervisor does not write her up, does anyone ping him or her for why? If so, multiple people concurred in not writing an award recommendation.

The editorial fails to address if she was not eligible for retention or chose to separate. But, if the PT failure was the impetus for all of that, we are talking about a zero defect mentality; a consequence of a shrinking force and some good people needing to leave sevice in addition to the miscreants. I have said often, in today's environment I don't know if Cpl. or SSgt Stalwart, with two NJP's and reductions in rate would be allowed to reenlist; I don't know if I would be accepted for a commission. My own personal history tempers my decision making when one of my folks gets in trouble. Maybe too many leaders need to look at the whole person vice what may truly be a blip on the radar.

sandsjames
11-09-2014, 02:28 PM
Great post. However, this is nothing new. Leadership has had issues from time to time since I've been around. What really threw me off was the statement that she failed her pt test because she wasn't in shape to run 1.5miles, but she immediate ly retook her test and passed...huhNever had a bad day?

efmbman
11-09-2014, 05:21 PM
Never had a bad day?

I would help if we knew what the definition of immediately is in this case. If it was the same day, or even the next day, I would also think she was slacking off the first time.

LogDog
11-09-2014, 07:25 PM
I think too many people are focusing on the wrong things. It's not about failing the PT test or getting yelled at by a senior NCO; it's about failure of leadership at all level towards this airman.

When an airman has a problem the Air Force has a problem and help solving the problem begins at the lowest level of supervision. When the senior NCO yelled at her and she sought help from her First Sergeant and got none, that was a failure of leadership.

When she made SSgt on the first try and the commander was "really busy" and couldn't congratulate her, that was a failure of leadership.

When she graduated Airman Leadership School, only her immediate supervisor attended the Flight Commander, First Sergeant, Squadron Commander, etc. failed in their leadership by not being at her graduation to support her and encourage her.

Yes, she failed the PT run but she immediately retook it an passed. Unfortunately, some people still believe in a one-mistake Air Force (didn't we learn anything from that disastrous period in the 80s and 90s). Leadership requires the leader to review and assess the effect the mistake has on the mission, the unit, and morale and take appropriate action. All mistakes are not equal and as such each mistake must be view separately.

She did two deployments meaning she was qualified to meet the requirements and demands of her position. Failure on a PT test obviously didn't disqualify fer from deploying.

What this comes down to is the airman didn't fail the Air Force; the Air Force failed the airman. Leadership at all levels bears responsibility. Instead of encouraging and supporting her leadership ignored her needs as well as the responsibilities that goes with leadership. It looks like the Air Force lost a good person and more likely retained someone who wasn't as good as her.

Capt Alfredo
11-10-2014, 12:17 AM
or...we could all be adults and let folks stand on their own merit instead of coddling. Do I agree with the pt standard? No. However, it is a standard and a condition of employment. It sounds like she did great stuff but failed on one standard and didn't get a Dec. I still don't see the big deal.

The big deal is that over the course of a three or four year tour, one miniscule error resulted in her not getting an end of tour award. You claim it's a standard and condition of employment, but so is being on time, or getting a haircut or a million other things. Are you saying that if a person comes in five minutes late ONE TIME over the course of a year or four, all the other outstanding things that person does should be disregarded and no EOT award given? Needing a haircut ONE TIME during a year should result in an EPR mark-down? That's what we've done; we've elevated ONE standard into the granddaddy of them all. Nothing else matters.

sandsjames
11-10-2014, 12:44 AM
What's sad is the majority of replies to this mirror the AF leadership flaws. It's not about this one girl in this one case. No matter how often the Commander, Shirt, Chief, NCOIC, supervisor tell you how they care about you, they don't. All they care about is that the boxes on the Power Point slide are all colored green during the weekly briefings.

Airborne
11-10-2014, 12:47 AM
She did a four or six year tour and got out. So the F what. Thanks for your service. This ideal we have created where we all have to do 25 years and make Chief or Col is rediculous. There is another sharp Airman in the pipeline waiting to take your place. If you feel getting out is the right thing for you to do then do it. Im some aspects I have more respect for the person that gets out at 6 and makes a life for them in the civ sector than the 30 year cheif who stays in for the check and probably doesnt have the skills, cash savings, or courage to get out.

VCO
11-10-2014, 02:21 AM
The big deal is that over the course of a three or four year tour, one miniscule error resulted in her not getting an end of tour award. You claim it's a standard and condition of employment, but so is being on time, or getting a haircut or a million other things. Are you saying that if a person comes in five minutes late ONE TIME over the course of a year or four, all the other outstanding things that person does should be disregarded and no EOT award given? Needing a haircut ONE TIME during a year should result in an EPR mark-down? That's what we've done; we've elevated ONE standard into the granddaddy of them all. Nothing else matters.
Capt,

The one, miniscule error can get you a referral EPR. I'm not saying I agree with the emphasis placed on PT, however it is a well-known standard, as are the consequences of not meeting it. If it was a bad day situation, and she retook her test the next day and passed, I would have fought to get her a dec. The author of this article is painting all of us with one brush, and he is flat out wrong. This wasn't a leadership issue.

VCO
11-10-2014, 02:23 AM
What's sad is the majority of replies to this mirror the AF leadership flaws. It's not about this one girl in this one case. No matter how often the Commander, Shirt, Chief, NCOIC, supervisor tell you how they care about you, they don't. All they care about is that the boxes on the Power Point slide are all colored green during the weekly briefings.


I see you are still jaded after retirement.

Measure Man
11-10-2014, 03:12 AM
I'm not saying I agree with the emphasis placed on PT, however it is a well-known standard, as are the consequences of not meeting it.

I think the point is that while the standard and consequences of not meeting it are well known...they suck and they are wrong.


If it was a bad day situation, and she retook her test the next day and passed, I would have fought to get her a dec.

...and you probably would have lost.

VCO
11-10-2014, 03:18 AM
...and you probably would have lost.

I don't know... I had a solid troop that had a PT failure and I still managed to get him a dec. It took a trip to the GP Chief's office to explain why I was pushing it, but I have some credibility in my unit which helped.

Rusty Jones
11-10-2014, 11:24 AM
I never once thought for a second that anyone outside of one direct superviser I had ever gave two shits about me; and - to me - that was just the way it was, and I accepted it.

When I got promoted, I could really give to shits if anyone congratulated me - the promotion itself is all the "attaboy" I need. End of tour award for deployment? All I care about is the fact that I'm home.

The person who wrote this letter is obviously speculating as to why she got out. It's entirely possible that she found a job on the outside that pays better and/or doesn't come with all of the hassle that's part of being in the military. Or maybe - just maybe - she simply doesn't like being in the military, as... and this might be difficult to grasp, but... the military isn't for everyone.

Measure Man
11-10-2014, 01:26 PM
I don't know... I had a solid troop that had a PT failure and I still managed to get him a dec. It took a trip to the GP Chief's office to explain why I was pushing it, but I have some credibility in my unit which helped.

There are exceptions, hence the term 'probably'....and somehow I knew you were going to have one

Mata Leao
11-10-2014, 01:44 PM
You guys aren't seeing it. The classic Foreest for the Trees syndrome.
This Airman, this "she", is not an actual person. It is a combination of individuals from several bases, over several years, culminating into cluster ef the AF is today.


Someone already said it, "it's the green box filled on the weekly PowerPoint slide".

Modus
11-10-2014, 01:47 PM
Basically what I got from this article is that Airmen today are way too sensitive. I recently saw a retiring MSgt with only one achievement medal for a 20+ year career. And who hasn't gotten yelled at by a SNCO at some point? Shame on the SNCO though, people who try to use their rank to bully are forever a part of this profession. And for the PT thing, the standard is the standard. In most places you're not getting a medal with a PT fail.

Rusty Jones
11-10-2014, 01:51 PM
You guys aren't seeing it. The classic Foreest for the Trees syndrome.
This Airman, this "she", is not an actual person. It is a combination of individuals from several bases, over several years, culminating into cluster ef the AF is today.


Someone already said it, "it's the green box filled on the weekly PowerPoint slide".

Well now, lemme bow down and pay homage to you. You've reached such a high level of enlightment that a mere mortal like myself could only hope to reach half of.

Note the sarcasm. Because there's nothing in the letter that suggests this. If your name was Rusty Jones, TJ would be all over you right now.

SomeRandomGuy
11-10-2014, 03:02 PM
She did a four or six year tour and got out. So the F what. Thanks for your service. This ideal we have created where we all have to do 25 years and make Chief or Col is rediculous. There is another sharp Airman in the pipeline waiting to take your place. If you feel getting out is the right thing for you to do then do it. Im some aspects I have more respect for the person that gets out at 6 and makes a life for them in the civ sector than the 30 year cheif who stays in for the check and probably doesnt have the skills, cash savings, or courage to get out.

I tend to agree with this response the most. Reading the letter in the original post brings back memories of several people I have known. Many decided to leave at 6 years or 8 years. They left for a variety of reasons but the one broad reason why they all left is they simply found something BETTER. I suspect that the girl mentioned in this article did the same. If she really is everything the author mentioned she would have no problem finding a job on the outside avoiding all the stessors mentioned.

I had a few issues at the end of my service but I fit into a lot of the things mentioned in the article. I was always a top performer, never got a medal, etc, etc. If someone were writing this letter about me they would have said he left because he was being forced to pull more than his own weight. The Air Force kept drawing down and he kept stepping up to fill the void. Eventually he got burned out and realized that he could make the same money without all the bullshit and he left. In a way the Air Force took him for granted. He was always willing step up so that level of performance became the expectation.

I think given teh current state of the Air Force more and more top performers will get out. The reason is simply that when you are good at your job you somehow become the go to guy for everything. The people who are just coasting along are never going to leave. They are giving about 75% of the effort of the top performer and they still get the same paycheck. As long as the top performer keeps gettings the accolades they will stay motivated but the one time they don't get a medal they are going to feel wronged. At that point they are likely to realize that all the extra work they did meant absolutely nothing. Every single person is just a number plain and simple. Many of these top performers are constantly told they are special then one day something like a PT failure happens and it all comes crashing down. They realize they are no better than anyone else and the AF already has their replacement trained and ready to go.

sandsjames
11-10-2014, 03:50 PM
I see you are still jaded after retirement.

Nope...not jaded. I am, however, concerned for the Tech School students who come through my classes. It's hard to teach core values when you know that they will be going into a stat based AF where doing the right think and being mistake free 99% of the time is not enough.

What gives me hope is that the article was written by a Colonel, has "blown up" on social media, and will garner attention. No matter what the circumstances were in this one airman's instance, maybe it will lead to a hard look at the current system.

sandsjames
11-10-2014, 03:53 PM
And for the PT thing, the standard is the standard. In most places you're not getting a medal with a PT fail.You are right. You won't. But you will get one if you show up late to work, do an average job, and score high on the PT test. That is the bigger issue, and that's what the article is about. Again, as you said, standards are standards. The issue, which has been pointed out several times, is that there is one single standard that far outweighs the rest and is the sole "make or break" in a career.

BENDER56
11-10-2014, 06:04 PM
All organizations -- particularly those competing with other organizations to make money -- take great pains to identify and retain their superior performers. Because if they don't, they might find their top performers working for their competitors.

The AF isn't concerned with making money and it has no US competitors (No, the other services don't count -- same team/same fight.) but it still has a need to retain its best performers. The alternative is having its mediocre performers promoted to senior leadership because all the more skilled people left.

So this colonel is arguing that this airmen represents that loss and, further, that it was the AF's impersonal culture and, perhaps, its arbitrary emphasis of one standard (PT) over all others that resulted in her separating instead of staying.

Well, maybe. Maybe not. Individually, people have countless things that motivate/demotivate them. Maybe she left for exactly the reasons he supposes. Should the AF then change its whole culture because one top performer was disgruntled and left? Not necessarily - she might be an outlier. But if lots of top performers are bailing out specifically due to dislike of the AF culture then it is a problem the AF should address. But one colonel's anecdote doesn't make it so.

My last in-resident PME was in 1992. At that and every previous every level we used to spend a lot of time learning theories of motivation, and from what I recall they were practiced in the workplace. People were recognized for their achievements. From what I read on these forums (perhaps not a representative sample), that isn't the case in today's AF. If a disproportionate number of good people are leaving because of that, it's a problem. But if good people are staying in the face of that, should it matter? Again, one man's opinion doesn't define a trend.

sandsjames
11-10-2014, 07:39 PM
The AF isn't concerned with making money and it has no US competitors (No, the other services don't count -- same team/same fight.) but it still has a need to retain its best performers. The alternative is having its mediocre performers promoted to senior leadership because all the more skilled people left. This is laughable. The idea that we currently have the best performers promoted to senior leadership shows a disconnect from reality.



My last in-resident PME was in 1992. At that and every previous every level we used to spend a lot of time learning theories of motivation, and from what I recall they were practiced in the workplace. People were recognized for their achievements. From what I read on these forums (perhaps not a representative sample), that isn't the case in today's AF. If a disproportionate number of good people are leaving because of that, it's a problem. But if good people are staying in the face of that, should it matter? Again, one man's opinion doesn't define a trend.Again, this must be a joke. 1) For you not to see this as a trend makes me question how much you pay attention and 2) The biggest issue is recognizing people for their achievements. The AF missed the boat with this by giving everyone the trophy. That makes this girl, and everyone else in the same boat, not getting a medal a big deal. Not getting a medal in the current (recent) culture is like getting a 4 on the EPR. On all of the surveys, people say they want to be recognized. What this means, to me, is that they want to be able to leave 30 minutes early on a Friday because they worked hard all week, or something similar. Of course that got turned into AFAM and AFCM for all, or the "workhorse" award, etc...etc.

I think a lot of people are leaving because of it. I don't have any stats, but I know that's why I gave up. I got tired of the BS being fed to us on a daily basis. That's what the article is about.

SomeRandomGuy
11-10-2014, 07:54 PM
This is laughable. The idea that we currently have the best performers promoted to senior leadership shows a disconnect from reality.


Again, this must be a joke. 1) For you not to see this as a trend makes me question how much you pay attention and 2) The biggest issue is recognizing people for their achievements. The AF missed the boat with this by giving everyone the trophy. That makes this girl, and everyone else in the same boat, not getting a medal a big deal. Not getting a medal in the current (recent) culture is like getting a 4 on the EPR. On all of the surveys, people say they want to be recognized. What this means, to me, is that they want to be able to leave 30 minutes early on a Friday because they worked hard all week, or something similar. Of course that got turned into AFAM and AFCM for all, or the "workhorse" award, etc...etc.

I think a lot of people are leaving because of it. I don't have any stats, but I know that's why I gave up. I got tired of the BS being fed to us on a daily basis. That's what the article is about.

I have often wondered why the Air Force doesn't have "exit interviews" as part of outprocessing. Just do a quick survey like 5 minutes or less to figure out why people are leaving. In my experience people are a lot more honest on their way out. At one unit we had a shirt who learned this the hard way. She was a total bitch and ruined the morale in the unit. She added herself to the outprcoessing checklist and man people really let her have it on the way out. She promptly removed herself because all she was getting was feedback that she single handedly ruined the unit.

It would be interesting to see what the common reasons for leaving are. I would say for people who leave before retirement by choice the reasons would be 1.) Better job opportunity 2.) Avoiding a PCS to SD, Korea, etc 3.) Deployment tempo too high 4.) Burnout

I kind of doubt that not getting any recognition is on the list at all. Sure it might be the final straw that sends someone packing but it probably isn't the primary reason anyone leaves.

TJMAC77SP
11-10-2014, 08:14 PM
Well now, lemme bow down and pay homage to you. You've reached such a high level of enlightment that a mere mortal like myself could only hope to reach half of.

Note the sarcasm. Because there's nothing in the letter that suggests this. If your name was Rusty Jones, TJ would be all over you right now.

You know, if I were a different man........say you I would, at this juncture, make some transparent remark about your masculinity and sexual proclivities but, I am not so...............What the hell did the poster say that got so much sand in your mommy parts?

See what I did there?

sandsjames
11-10-2014, 08:55 PM
It would be interesting to see what the common reasons for leaving are. I would say for people who leave before retirement by choice the reasons would be 1.) Better job opportunity 2.) Avoiding a PCS to SD, Korea, etc 3.) Deployment tempo too high 4.) Burnout

I kind of doubt that not getting any recognition is on the list at all. Sure it might be the final straw that sends someone packing but it probably isn't the primary reason anyone leaves.I can only speak for myself. I didn't have a job opportunity, orders to anywhere, hadn't deployed in over 4 years. For me it was burnout. Not job burnout, but "system" burnout. But I'd imagine that's pretty true for retirees, which is why I believe the 20 year retirement is a pretty perfect time. Either that or, knowing that 20 is the goal line, one just doesn't have the motivation to deal with the crap. I'm sure if it was 30 years, the frustration leading to retiring would be postponed quite a bit.

TJMAC77SP
11-10-2014, 10:40 PM
I have read this thread and keep coming back to the same thought........you all have the right idea. There is a lot of truth to the fact that, as with any organization, we fail our people sometimes and equally true that sometimes our people have lopsided ideas about what they should or shouldn't get in the way of treatment and warm fuzzies.

Let's look at end-of-tour decs. SJ was right (I think this was his point) that we are now in a situation where it is expected that you will get a decoration (above and beyond the BTDT decs handed out to everyone in theater) on return to home station. This is a wrong that simply needs to stop. It will be unfair to those who are caught up in the period right after the stop but to continue is simply a repeat of the EPR system failure.

Conversely I think anyone who gets out because they didn’t get a dec and/or because they got (inappropriately) yelled at by a higher ranking NCO doesn’t speak very highly of the airman and perhaps the right decision was made. The Colonel was right in citing that the chain of command failed but somewhat wrong in intimating that the airman’s decision was somehow completely understandable in light of this failure. I for one don’t completely understand it.

Stalwart
11-10-2014, 10:46 PM
I can only speak for myself. I didn't have a job opportunity, orders to anywhere, hadn't deployed in over 4 years. For me it was burnout. Not job burnout, but "system" burnout. But I'd imagine that's pretty true for retirees, which is why I believe the 20 year retirement is a pretty perfect time. Either that or, knowing that 20 is the goal line, one just doesn't have the motivation to deal with the crap. I'm sure if it was 30 years, the frustration leading to retiring would be postponed quite a bit.

I have known/worked with a lot of people who I personally wish had 'cut bait' before retirement. I am not talking about someone at their 16/17 year mark who is getting frustrated/burned out, but people at 12, 10 and even 8 years of service who will tell you they 'hate' the military, who don't like what they do, have real bad attitudes and are basically (already) counting down to retirement. They don't do a poor enough job to get thrown out, but steal oxygen & energy from people around them.

What frustrates me: just based on the system they stand more of a chance of promoting than not promoting until you get to (maybe E-7) E-8, E-9 or O-5.

What confuses me: why do something you 'hate' for so long (even with the pension to consider)? As miserable as these types come across I could not do it myself.

sandsjames
11-11-2014, 01:13 AM
I have known/worked with a lot of people who I personally wish had 'cut bait' before retirement. I am not talking about someone at their 16/17 year mark who is getting frustrated/burned out, but people at 12, 10 and even 8 years of service who will tell you they 'hate' the military, who don't like what they do, have real bad attitudes and are basically (already) counting down to retirement. They don't do a poor enough job to get thrown out, but steal oxygen & energy from people around them.

What frustrates me: just based on the system they stand more of a chance of promoting than not promoting until you get to (maybe E-7) E-8, E-9 or O-5.

What confuses me: why do something you 'hate' for so long (even with the pension to consider)? As miserable as these types come across I could not do it myself.

I think you mentioned the reason. The pension. The paycheck. The benefits. Especially people with families. Think about people in the civilian work sector and how many of them hate their jobs, bosses, etc, but do it. It's part of being an adult. It's part of taking responsibility. Sometimes you just have to "suck it up". Doesn't mean you have to enjoy it.

AFKILO7
11-11-2014, 01:36 AM
You guys aren't seeing it. The classic Foreest for the Trees syndrome.
This Airman, this "she", is not an actual person. It is a combination of individuals from several bases, over several years, culminating into cluster ef the AF is today.


Someone already said it, "it's the green box filled on the weekly PowerPoint slide".

Supposed to be a like for your post. Not a dislike. Sorry for that, you are spot on with your assessment.

Stalwart
11-11-2014, 01:47 AM
I think you mentioned the reason. The pension. The paycheck. The benefits. Especially people with families. Think about people in the civilian work sector and how many of them hate their jobs, bosses, etc, but do it. It's part of being an adult. It's part of taking responsibility. Sometimes you just have to "suck it up". Doesn't mean you have to enjoy it.

Yeah, I do get that and I respect those who are taking care of their responsibilities

In part I say what I did because I married later than most of my peers (28), started investing money early and never really felt pressure like I 'had' to stay. I am benefited by the fact that I have (mostly) enjoyed what I have been doing. Again, I don't know if I would stick around doing something I hated for 8 - 12 years just for the pension ... especially if it made me like the people I have observed who just seemed miserable and whose piss poor attitudes permeated the space around them.

I will admit, before I got married being a single guy was as good as it gets, then my wife made me feel complete in a way I didn't imagine; now that we have our daughter I see things in a whole new way. Had I gotten married younger and had a child (responsibility kicking in) I may have felt that pressure to stay if I hated what I was doing.

Airborne
11-11-2014, 02:16 AM
I think you mentioned the reason. The pension. The paycheck. The benefits. Especially people with families. Think about people in the civilian work sector and how many of them hate their jobs, bosses, etc, but do it. It's part of being an adult. It's part of taking responsibility. Sometimes you just have to "suck it up". Doesn't mean you have to enjoy it.

We see all the commercials about the military giving you "skills", but at the end of the day the military does a poor job of setting people up for life on the outside for those that have directly transferable skills. Maintainers dont have FAA certifications, vehicle people dont get ASCE certifications, many medical personnel dont get their civilian equivalent and many others. So while people have families and other commitments, when youve been in for 10 years stationed in Bumfuck, USA unable to network, your wife couldnt get a job because of PCSing or being in Bumfuck, USA so yes many people do just ride it out for that $1200 a month paycheck and "free" health care for the rest of their lives.

Joker_USAF
11-11-2014, 10:50 AM
Where did it say in the original article that she got out voluntarily? I would suspect that her AFSC met the ERB this summer. I would also assume that because of her PT failure, her Commander did not select "Definitely Retain" but selected "Consider" on her ERRF. Since there was never any clear guidance posted as to what the ERB was using to differentiate between "Keepers" and "Non-Keepers", maybe this was enough to have the Board hand her a pink slip. Before the ERB met, each Commander was to sit down with those Airmen meeting the board and go over the ERRF. Could it have been at that point that she came to the conclusion that, "...the Air Force had made it clear it didn't want her"?

I fully understand that there is a "standard" that she missed but why have we put so much more weight on that one than others? Is it because when OEF/OIF went into full force and "in lieu of" tasking came more frequently, the AF was embarrassed by some of our out of shape members being ridiculed by the other Services? Did we swing the pendulum too far to the right and now that we have kicked countless folks out, we are afraid to swing it back to middle?

I don't know the answers. I just know that the article has sparked conversations and I hope some of us are taking another look at how we can be better for those who look to us for leadership.

sandsjames
11-11-2014, 12:09 PM
I fully understand that there is a "standard" that she missed but why have we put so much more weight on that one than others? Is it because when OEF/OIF went into full force and "in lieu of" tasking came more frequently, the AF was embarrassed by some of our out of shape members being ridiculed by the other Services? Did we swing the pendulum too far to the right and now that we have kicked countless folks out, we are afraid to swing it back to middle?



This is exactly the reason, IMO. We sent people to train with the Army and found we just couldn't keep up physically, for the most part. Leadership was embarrassed when someone would get sent home. So, instead of fighting to have us not get tasked for jobs that were not ours in the first place, they overreacted, as almost always happens. It was another knee jerk that the AF (and other services, I would imagine) are so good (bad) at. It's the same reason we have the creed and are all warriors. We were the kid who was good at chess club when our daddy would rather have had us on the football team so he didn't get laughed at by the other dads.

Mata Leao
11-11-2014, 04:36 PM
We see all the commercials about the military giving you "skills", but at the end of the day the military does a poor job of setting people up for life on the outside for those that have directly transferable skills. Maintainers dont have FAA certifications, vehicle people dont get ASCE certifications, many medical personnel dont get their civilian equivalent and many others. So while people have families and other commitments, when youve been in for 10 years stationed in Bumfuck, USA unable to network, your wife couldnt get a job because of PCSing or being in Bumfuck, USA so yes many people do just ride it out for that $1200 a month paycheck and "free" health care for the rest of their lives.

While I agree with you that the military does a poor job in prepping people for life after the military, it's also not really their place. They train you to be a(n) Airman, Soldier, Sailor or Marine. Any of those certifications you mentioned can be gotten, they just have to get them on their own, like a degree.

It would be nice if TAP was expanded to help with the transition a little better. It's not a bad program, but could be much better and adjustable. I went to TAP 3 times over a 5 year period, and it was the same every time, even the same lame jokes.

Someone mentioned an exit interview. That sounds like an excellent idea for those getting out before retirement. Just a few minute survey so they can respond more freely.

Absinthe Anecdote
11-11-2014, 08:59 PM
I can only speak for myself. I didn't have a job opportunity, orders to anywhere, hadn't deployed in over 4 years. For me it was burnout. Not job burnout, but "system" burnout. But I'd imagine that's pretty true for retirees, which is why I believe the 20 year retirement is a pretty perfect time. Either that or, knowing that 20 is the goal line, one just doesn't have the motivation to deal with the crap. I'm sure if it was 30 years, the frustration leading to retiring would be postponed quite a bit.

Burnout? What were you burnt out from, complaining about PT? Technically I think it was because you hit your High Year Tenure.

sandsjames
11-11-2014, 10:51 PM
Burnout? What were you burnt out from, complaining about PT? Technically I think it was because you hit your High Year Tenure.

Technically, yes it was my HYT. However, the motivation to get promoted in order to extend the HYT was long gone.

Stalwart
11-12-2014, 01:15 AM
This is exactly the reason, IMO. We sent people to train with the Army and found we just couldn't keep up physically, for the most part. Leadership was embarrassed when someone would get sent home. So, instead of fighting to have us not get tasked for jobs that were not ours in the first place, they overreacted, as almost always happens. It was another knee jerk that the AF (and other services, I would imagine) are so good (bad) at. It's the same reason we have the creed and are all warriors. We were the kid who was good at chess club when our daddy would rather have had us on the football team so he didn't get laughed at by the other dads.

Going back to my time in the infantry, most USAF folks I have known over the years could have kept up physically ... at least to a minuimum. What did and continues to surprise me is that many who could do something don't ... a "not my job" mentality. It would be one thing if I was asking an Airman whose AFSC is admin to put on a 80 lb ruck and hike 20 miles but the "not my job" mentality has crept into things a bit much to the point that even something as simple as helping offload supplies was scoffed at.

I once had a load of trucks bring in food & supplies for us, and a couple of the USAF comms guys basically said it wasn't their job (even though they eat the food, use the batteries etc.), the US Army Col was also in the 'bucket brigade' passing boxes alongside the folks. When it came time for them to RTB, they were sore that they didn't get recommended for awards or get feedback to their leadership that was more than "they did their job"

OtisRNeedleman
11-12-2014, 03:00 AM
Going back to my time in the infantry, most USAF folks I have known over the years could have kept up physically ... at least to a minuimum. What did and continues to surprise me is that many who could do something don't ... a "not my job" mentality. It would be one thing if I was asking an Airman whose AFSC is admin to put on a 80 lb ruck and hike 20 miles but the "not my job" mentality has crept into things a bit much to the point that even something as simple as helping offload supplies was scoffed at.

I once had a load of trucks bring in food & supplies for us, and a couple of the USAF comms guys basically said it wasn't their job (even though they eat the food, use the batteries etc.), the US Army Col was also in the 'bucket brigade' passing boxes alongside the folks. When it came time for them to RTB, they were sore that they didn't get recommended for awards or get feedback to their leadership that was more than "they did their job"


Wow. In my Adult Air Force days, that shit wouldn't have happened. There were plenty of times I did things that weren't part of my job description. Needed to be done. I did it. Someone would have told those comm troops to get their asses in gear and help unload those trucks. So they bitched because they didn't get awards or praised to the sky? Tough shit, I'd say.

I also read the article. The impression I had was that the AF just discarded this NCO. Apparently outside the PT failure the NCO was a top performer, one the AF spent a lot to train. Now the AF will need to spend a lot to recruit, train, and retain another body to take that NCO's place.

These days, it seems that the AF's motto is no longer, "to fly, fight, and win", but rather, "to do PT, complete CBTs, volunteer, and hold bake sales", and the latter are the most important discriminants for medals and promotions.

Stalwart
11-12-2014, 03:16 AM
Wow. In my Adult Air Force days, that shit wouldn't have happened. There were plenty of times I did things that weren't part of my job description. Needed to be done. I did it. Someone would have told those comm troops to get their asses in gear and help unload those trucks. So they bitched because they didn't get awards or praised to the sky? Tough shit, I'd say.

And I don't / didn't mean to bash the USAF in that statement, but would say I have seen that type of mentality more from Airmen than from personnel from the other services, going back to my first multi-service environment in 1993. To be fair, the runner up would be the Navy.

Niirs
11-12-2014, 03:19 AM
A lot of this story seems a little far fetched; I have been to a lot of ALS graduations and have never been to one where no one from someone's squadron chain of command was not present? I have seen a lot of people get promoted, and yes the our Airmen see the results first on a website, commanders have always done walk arounds. I have seen crappy SNCOs, but her shirt would not help her and no one else in her chain of command stood up? Finally, failing a PT test is not meeting standards - why would the author say she did not have a fitness standard problem - she clearly did. Decorations are presented for continued exeptional service, she did not meet standards and should not have recieved a decoration.

The Col who wrote this was not in her chain of command and didn't have access to information within her chain of command, it sounds like he was getting the information she told him or information from what he saw from afar and based this story on it. He went as far as to speculate if anyone from her chain of command talked to her before she deployed.

I am sure there are bad leaders or even bad chains of command, but that is a very small percent of the Air Force and not the reason good people are getting out.

OtisRNeedleman
11-12-2014, 04:56 AM
And I don't / didn't mean to bash the USAF in that statement, but would say I have seen that type of mentality more from Airmen than from personnel from the other services, going back to my first multi-service environment in 1993. To be fair, the runner up would be the Navy.

No sweat. Truth be told, sometimes airmen aren't always as flexible as they should be. I was lucky, having bosses that ensured I kept being flexible. It's funny, because in ROTC it was stressed that flexibility is the key to airpower. :)

VCO
11-12-2014, 07:43 AM
Nope...not jaded. I am, however, concerned for the Tech School students who come through my classes. It's hard to teach core values when you know that they will be going into a stat based AF where doing the right think and being mistake free 99% of the time is not enough.

What gives me hope is that the article was written by a Colonel, has "blown up" on social media, and will garner attention. No matter what the circumstances were in this one airman's instance, maybe it will lead to a hard look at the current system.
You are very bitter (at least on here), and if you spread that attitude to your airmen, you are setting them up to fail.
Doing the right thing and being mistake free 99% of the time is still the recipe for success. With the new promotion system, a mistake will hurt you even less, at least at the lower ranks. Yes we are in a drawdown, and we have lost some good people, but we have also cut a lot of dead weight that should have been gone ages ago, and this situation is temporary.

I don't completely disagree with you on some of your negative perspectives about the AF, but 99% of the issues that will tank a career are controlled by the airman. The big landmines are repeated PT failures, DUIs, and sexual assaults. If you have a good attitude, do what is required of you, and accomplish the mission, you will do just fine. The AF is and will probably always be reactive and stat-based, but that is where NCOs can shine by properly taking care of their folks.

VCO
11-12-2014, 07:57 AM
This is exactly the reason, IMO. We sent people to train with the Army and found we just couldn't keep up physically, for the most part. Leadership was embarrassed when someone would get sent home. So, instead of fighting to have us not get tasked for jobs that were not ours in the first place, they overreacted, as almost always happens. It was another knee jerk that the AF (and other services, I would imagine) are so good (bad) at. It's the same reason we have the creed and are all warriors. We were the kid who was good at chess club when our daddy would rather have had us on the football team so he didn't get laughed at by the other dads.
I've been on many in-lieu of deployments, even pre-PT, and didn't see too many AF folks that couldn't do what was required of them. However, I understand the push to have a more fit force. From a strategic view, why not? We are in the military and should be held to a higher standard than an average civilian. Airmen should be able to rub shoulders with Soldiers and Marines and be on somewhat of an equal footing if the need arises.
Your mentality in this post is a look in the past. The Air Force changed direction 10 years ago. People that are on board doing what they need to will be fine. Those that continue to buck the system, even after 10 years, will be left bitter and disappointed. I'm not trying to be condescending. I was you 10 years ago, but I've realized the USAF pays me to do a job, and part of that job is to stay in shape.

sandsjames
11-12-2014, 10:17 AM
Going back to my time in the infantry, most USAF folks I have known over the years could have kept up physically ... at least to a minuimum. What did and continues to surprise me is that many who could do something don't ... a "not my job" mentality. It would be one thing if I was asking an Airman whose AFSC is admin to put on a 80 lb ruck and hike 20 miles but the "not my job" mentality has crept into things a bit much to the point that even something as simple as helping offload supplies was scoffed at.

I once had a load of trucks bring in food & supplies for us, and a couple of the USAF comms guys basically said it wasn't their job (even though they eat the food, use the batteries etc.), the US Army Col was also in the 'bucket brigade' passing boxes alongside the folks. When it came time for them to RTB, they were sore that they didn't get recommended for awards or get feedback to their leadership that was more than "they did their job"

Well that is completely wrong of those guys who didn't help. However, what isn't the job of the AF is to deploy with the Army and be sitting on a gun in the convoy, anymore than it's the Soldier's job to help the Comm guy configure the setting for the network at the deployed location.

I worked on generators. However, the AFIs are very, very clear that I am NOT allowed to work on anything over 600v, for safety reasons. That is the job of the AF electrician, as they are trained and qualified, while I am not. If I'm not allowed to work on something that I'm used to working with (mind you it's a much lower voltage) for safety reasons then how can I possibly be allowed to man a machine gun on a convoy?

sandsjames
11-12-2014, 10:22 AM
Airmen should be able to rub shoulders with Soldiers and Marines and be on somewhat of an equal footing if the need arises. No, they shouldn't "need" to be. If they need to be, then the manning for those services need to be increased.


Your mentality in this post is a look in the past. The Air Force changed direction 10 years ago. People that are on board doing what they need to will be fine. Those that continue to buck the system, even after 10 years, will be left bitter and disappointed. I'm not trying to be condescending. I was you 10 years ago, but I've realized the USAF pays me to do a job, and part of that job is to stay in shape.I'm not sure why people keep missing this point. I agree that airmen need to stay in shape. My problem, and the problem with most others, is that it's become the most important thing. That's all. Should the AF have a PT program? Sure. Should there be a standard of fitness? Absolutely. Should it hold more weight then everything else an airman does? No.

And, just to be clear, my feelings about what is right and what is wrong with the AF do not get passed on to my students.

Mata Leao
11-12-2014, 12:35 PM
For some reason when I "reply with quote" it goes to the moderator and never gets posted. Too bad for you guys, you missed out on my wisdom.

Now that is out of the way, I'll address my feelings on the "it's not my job' thing. I'm retired now, but back when I was a young A1C/SrA at Hurlburt Fld, I was assigned an extra duty at Aero Port (sp?) loading built up pallets on C-5s, mostly taking stuff to Desert Shield.
I was supposed to work an upcoming weekend. From past experience I learned that there was a lot of sitting around and not much loading going on.
I brought this up to my Flight Chief who was a SMSgt. I told him how I thought it was stupid to have to sit around all weekend, probably doing nothing. Also, my (ex)mother in law was coming to visit that weekend, and to top it off "Loading acft was not my job".
I swear I thought he would take my side. Well, he did not. I got one of the stearnest lectures of my career that day. I won't bore you with the details, because you proably already know what he said. Needless to say, I did work that weekend, I did get to visit with my (ex) mother in law, and I also had to come to into work monday to "my" job.

This was all a bit off topic from the OP, but the conversation has drifted this way. My biggest pet peeve to this day is going into an office and hearing Sgt/Mr who ever is on leave, you'll have to come back. You only find this on base or in gov't. Why is that?

SomeRandomGuy
11-12-2014, 01:33 PM
This was all a bit off topic from the OP, but the conversation has drifted this way. My biggest pet peeve to this day is going into an office and hearing Sgt/Mr who ever is on leave, you'll have to come back. You only find this on base or in gov't. Why is that?

The government isn't the only place where you will run into "sorry the only person who knows how to do that isn't here right now" I have ran into that problem other places besides the government. It is just a lot more common in the government.

I'm pretty sure I know the reason it exists though. There are two reasons it happens but you as the customer usually cannot determine which it is. If there is only one person in an organization who knows how to do something it usually means 1.) That person likes their job security and refuses to train anyone else 2.) The task is complicated and important enough that one person always handles it in order for it not to get screwed up.

When I worked finance customer service from time to time I would have a customer complain that they were sent away because the only person who could help them isn't here right now. In most cases the person who sent them away just needed some training. Even though it would be quicker to just fix the problem myself I always tried to grab the original person and teach them the task they claim to not be able to understand. It takes a little longer to teach someone than it does to just handle it yourself but in the long run it will pay off.

After saying all that, I will point out that there are a few cases of "the only person who can do that isn't here" is valid and nothing can be done. These cases exist when a special system access or training is required and access is limited. For example if you go to Finance to get your MyPay pin reset during lunch there may or may not be someone there who can do it for you. Each base is limited to a certain number of people who can have that access. At my last base we were allowed 4 accounts. If 1 was on leave, 1 at an appt, and 2 were at lunch you might have to come back. Nothing can really be done about that though except stopping one of the people from going to lunch.

Rusty Jones
11-12-2014, 03:35 PM
And I don't / didn't mean to bash the USAF in that statement, but would say I have seen that type of mentality more from Airmen than from personnel from the other services, going back to my first multi-service environment in 1993. To be fair, the runner up would be the Navy.

I've never seen that happen. I've seen Sailors bitch about something not being their job while they're doing it, or know that they will be doing it. But I've never seen a Sailor actually believe - let alone act on the belief - that simply saying "that's not my job" will actually get them out of having to do something.

Absinthe Anecdote
11-12-2014, 04:05 PM
You are very bitter (at least on here), and if you spread that attitude to your airmen, you are setting them up to fail.
Doing the right thing and being mistake free 99% of the time is still the recipe for success. With the new promotion system, a mistake will hurt you even less, at least at the lower ranks. Yes we are in a drawdown, and we have lost some good people, but we have also cut a lot of dead weight that should have been gone ages ago, and this situation is temporary.

I don't completely disagree with you on some of your negative perspectives about the AF, but 99% of the issues that will tank a career are controlled by the airman. The big landmines are repeated PT failures, DUIs, and sexual assaults. If you have a good attitude, do what is required of you, and accomplish the mission, you will do just fine. The AF is and will probably always be reactive and stat-based, but that is where NCOs can shine by properly taking care of their folks.


I agree with you 100%

He is extremly bitter and whiny.

No doubt that he is poisoning airmen with his piss poor attitude from his tech school podium.

He even admitted that he didn't deploy a lot or was even motivated to get promoted. Yet, he wants to blame the Air Force because he retired as a E-6.

I guess he expected to get STEP promoted because he was a self proclaimed wizard on the job.

Nope! The real Air Force doesn't operate that way, he wanted someone to write up a STEP package for him, when all he did was his job. What a joke.

PT is part of the job, not being a fat assed duffel bag is part of the job.

Guys like him complain about bake sales, but you sure as hell see them out there gobbling up cupcakes like greedy little pigs.

I must have ran hundreds of bake sales, but I never once ate a cupcake. None of the smart people do. As a matter of fact I'd use lard in the recipe, and frost them with high calorie cream cheese icing, just to help fatten up weak ass cry babies like him.

I also question the veracity of that article, it sounds like that Colonel was smitten with the SSgt. Probably just some middle aged officer who is trying to score points with a fat assed junior NCO.

Just a bunch of weakness if you ask me.

Mjölnir
11-12-2014, 04:33 PM
For some reason when I "reply with quote" it goes to the moderator and never gets posted. Too bad for you guys, you missed out on my wisdom.

I do not see any posts pending approval. In this thread?

Also, this thread isn't about a user folks, let's keep it from turning into that, again.

LogDog
11-12-2014, 05:07 PM
This was all a bit off topic from the OP, but the conversation has drifted this way. My biggest pet peeve to this day is going into an office and hearing Sgt/Mr who ever is on leave, you'll have to come back. You only find this on base or in gov't. Why is that?
The reason is simple; they don't want to do the extra work because someone else is on leave. Of course, when they go on leave they expect someone to do their job.

I learned early in my career how to get around that attitude. When someone said "So-and-So is on leave and there's no one there to take care of it" I'd ask "If So-and-So died, who'd take their place?" Their answer was there's someone who could step in and do it. I'd then ask why that person can't step-in and do it, now? They couldn't answer that question and ended up taking care of me.

Most of the time, it's just laziness.

Rusty Jones
11-12-2014, 05:48 PM
The reason is simple; they don't want to do the extra work because someone else is on leave. Of course, when they go on leave they expect someone to do their job.

I learned early in my career how to get around that attitude. When someone said "So-and-So is on leave and there's no one there to take care of it" I'd ask "If So-and-So died, who'd take their place?" Their answer was there's someone who could step in and do it. I'd then ask why that person can't step-in and do it, now? They couldn't answer that question and ended up taking care of me.

Most of the time, it's just laziness.

Good thing for you that the people that you've asked felt that they owed you an answer to that question. Customer service should always be top priority, but one should never NEVER let the customer dictate the tempo. I understand that rank sometimes comes into play, but when I was a Personnel Specialist in the Navy; I always stepped in when I saw a a customer dictating the tempo with one of my junior Sailors - regardless of who was right or wrong.

I trained those who worked for me to be firm - to make sure that they customer knows that they mean business. And that's a good thing, because it also increased customer confidence.

Unfortunately... when you work in personnel or disbursing, that's how you have to be. When you work in this field; often times people who turn wrenches, handle chemicles, operate heavy machinery, etc; feel that because of the nature of their job, and the nature of yours, that they get to disrepect you and talk to you however they want.

Anyhow, everywhere I've been, there was a "buddy system" in place for this type of situation. Whoever was on leave, the "buddy" HAD to cover for them.

SomeRandomGuy
11-12-2014, 06:15 PM
No doubt that he is poisoning airmen with his piss poor attitude from his tech school podium.

My guess is that Sandsjames uses a lectern not a podium. I'm not sure how tall he is but I doubt he needs to stand on a podium for his students to be able to see him.

LogDog
11-12-2014, 06:36 PM
Good thing for you that the people that you've asked felt that they owed you an answer to that question. Customer service should always be top priority, but one should never NEVER let the customer dictate the tempo. I understand that rank sometimes comes into play, but when I was a Personnel Specialist in the Navy; I always stepped in when I saw a a customer dictating the tempo with one of my junior Sailors - regardless of who was right or wrong.

Anyhow, everywhere I've been, there was a "buddy system" in place for this type of situation. Whoever was on leave, the "buddy" HAD to cover for them.
What I did was basically to put them on the spot and embarrass them. It may not have earned me any Brownie points with them but who are they going to complain to; their supervisor without looking foolish for not helping me in the first place. I don't think so. Most of my dealings were one-off visits where they'd never or rarely see me again. I dealt with a lot of base agencies so what I did with them was to listen to them and worked within their rules rather than demand special consideration. I built a working relationship with them and had very few problems.

The problem I saw, especially in the medical career fields, was NCOs at all levels tended towards making their little Kingdoms and anyone wanting anything had to go through them and the NCO made their customers feel the customers owed them something. When I had the rank and was in-charge, I refused to hold that attitude. If you needed something and we could do it, we did it. If it was out of the ordinary then talk to me and I'll tell them if we could or couldn't do it and if we couldn't why we couldn't. Normally, when SNCOs or officers came to my office asking for a "favor" and we could do it I'd be polite and escort them to an airman or junior NCO and tell them to talk to them about what you need. It wasn't being disrespectful to them but it was letting them know we could take care of them and it wasn't necessary to get me, a SNCO, involved. My people knew my philosophy was to take care of the customer the first time so we won't have to deal with them again for the same problem.

sandsjames
11-12-2014, 06:41 PM
My guess is that Sandsjames uses a lectern not a podium. I'm not sure how tall he is but I doubt he needs to stand on a podium for his students to be able to see him.

One of the most misused words. Crazy how many people don't know the difference between the two.

Stalwart
11-12-2014, 07:12 PM
However, what isn't the job of the AF is to deploy with the Army and be sitting on a gun in the convoy, anymore than it's the Soldier's job to help the Comm guy configure the setting for the network at the deployed location.?

I would say if doing those things is what is required to get things done, then that is what is required.


I worked on generators. However, the AFIs are very, very clear that I am NOT allowed to work on anything over 600v, for safety reasons. That is the job of the AF electrician, as they are trained and qualified, while I am not. If I'm not allowed to work on something that I'm used to working with (mind you it's a much lower voltage) for safety reasons then how can I possibly be allowed to man a machine gun on a convoy?

If you aren't authorized to do that work, then you shouldn't be doing it. That said, what if there were no people trained / certified and they needed someone / anyone to get that piece of gear working ... right now?

When I was assigned to a destroyer, after being there for about 2 months I was called into the CO's cabin and told the Ops O got fired and I was Ops. Now things to keep in mind:

-I would now be in charge of 3 additional divisions:
a. OT - the Cryptologists, Intel person, & EW guys (my original division)
b. Nav - the guys in charge of Navigation for the ship (not getting us grounded etc.)
c. OI - The guys that manage / run the Combat Information Center (where we control missile launches etc.)
d. OD - the guys handling all the ship's lines, anchors & chains, topside maintenance, refueling stations etc.
-There is a formal school for cruiser/destroyers Operations Officers.
-I was there on orders from 'big Navy' to be the Signals Warfare & Electronic Warfare Officer.

In none of those other areas did I have ANY experience, training or certifications. Realistically I could have told the CO I didn't have the required training to be Ops and since NAV & OD are seriously involved in the safety of the ship (no kidding can get people killed) and OI runs CIC he would be better served to find a prior Ops or work a deal with the DESRON to get a replacement; he may have told me to suck it up anyhow and then I could have leveraged BUPERs on the issue to a poor result for all concerned; I didn't. I took the job and figured it out. We were told that we would get a replacement in a month or so, it was almost 18 months. Now, when I got my Fitness Report about 6 months later I was ranked the #1 of 8 LT's on board ... despite my lack of training as Ops ... I am certain that FITREP had a direct impact on my selection to LCDR (O4) 2 years early.

Barring being told to do something that is: illegal, immoral, or unethical I think we all have an obligation to anything and everything to meet the mission ... whatever the mission may be.



Edit: 801 Posts ... huzzah!

meatbringer
11-12-2014, 07:45 PM
I agree with you 100%

He is extremly bitter and whiny.

No doubt that he is poisoning airmen with his piss poor attitude from his tech school podium.

He even admitted that he didn't deploy a lot or was even motivated to get promoted. Yet, he wants to blame the Air Force because he retired as a E-6.

I guess he expected to get STEP promoted because he was a self proclaimed wizard on the job.

Nope! The real Air Force doesn't operate that way, he wanted someone to write up a STEP package for him, when all he did was his job. What a joke.

PT is part of the job, not being a fat assed duffel bag is part of the job.

Guys like him complain about bake sales, but you sure as hell see them out there gobbling up cupcakes like greedy little pigs.

I must have ran hundreds of bake sales, but I never once ate a cupcake. None of the smart people do. As a matter of fact I'd use lard in the recipe, and frost them with high calorie cream cheese icing, just to help fatten up weak ass cry babies like him.

I also question the veracity of that article, it sounds like that Colonel was smitten with the SSgt. Probably just some middle aged officer who is trying to score points with a fat assed junior NCO.

Just a bunch of weakness if you ask me.

I am currently a technical instructor and work with the type of individuals you described. Most of the civilian instructors here are fat, lazy, loudmouthed, and ignorant know-it-alls that retired as Technical Sergeants. All they do is complain and talk sh!t to us younger guys who accomplished more than they did in their entire careers in half the time.

Absinthe Anecdote
11-12-2014, 07:46 PM
One of the most misused words. Crazy how many people don't know the difference between the two.

I thought he was confusing podium with pedestal until I looked it up.

If it were up to me, I'd put you on a pedestal, but I don't think AETC allows those.

sandsjames
11-12-2014, 07:48 PM
I would say if doing those things is what is required to get things done, then that is what is required.



If you aren't authorized to do that work, then you shouldn't be doing it. That said, what if there were no people trained / certified and they needed someone / anyone to get that piece of gear working ... right now?

Of course if it needs to be done on the spot then it needs to be done. The bigger problem is the long term planning. If it's more soldiers we need then get more soldiers. To not do so is a failure at all levels for two different reasons. 1) They aren't recruiting enough soldiers to meet the needs and 2) They are over manned in the career fields they pull from to backfill those slots.

The issue is that these ILO positions were not an "Oops, we need some bodies" over a short period of time. It was a pretty long term thing which could have easily been fixed, putting more qualified people in all of the positions.

So, if the PT issue was because of ILO taskings, then it's a failure because the PT program is design as a long term/permanent thing. If the PT issue isn't because of ILO taskings, then they've been lying about the purpose of it.

They'd have been better off to say "You all are getting fat and we're going to start this program" but those aren't the reasons that were given. When you are "in charge", as I'm sure you know, you don't lie to your troops because they will see through it and lose respect for you. That's what happened with the BS (for no reason) about "Fit to Fight".

Absinthe Anecdote
11-12-2014, 08:12 PM
I am currently a technical instructor and work with the type of individuals you described. Most of the civilian instructors here are fat, lazy, loudmouthed, and ignorant know-it-alls that retired as Technical Sergeants. All they do is complain and talk sh!t to us younger guys who accomplished more than they did in their entire careers in half the time.

Yep, every generation ends up with a group of guys like that. Ask them to do something and they start crying about how it isn't their job.

I started working for defense contractors after I got out, and that world is full of them!

All I had to do was ask for a little responsibility, and tell my boss that I wanted to pursue a management position. A few management courses later, I was in charge of a bunch of lazy civilian duffle bags like that.

That's when the real fun began. I became an expert on what I could and could not make them do. I'd pester them about keeping their desks clean, and constantly fucked with them over their time sheets.

You wouldn't believe how many times I caught them leaving 15 minutes early. I'd set little traps for them, like pretending that I had a meeting right around quitting time. I'd the go out to the parking lot and wait for them to come sneaking out of the building.

Damn cry babies tried to run to their union on me, but cheating on a time card is a big deal.

After I had caught them cheating on their time cards, I held it over them to make them clean the entire work area.

That's the great thing about the civilian world, a lot of times you can just ask to be put in charge and it will happen.

sandsjames
11-12-2014, 08:20 PM
That's the great thing about the civilian world, a lot of times you can just ask to be put in charge and it will happen.Luckily for some it doesn't take any actual qualifications.

meatbringer
11-12-2014, 08:21 PM
Yep, every generation ends up with a group of guys like that. Ask them to do something and they start crying about how it isn't their job.

I started working for defense contractors after I got out, and that world is full of them!

All I had to do was ask for a little responsibility, and tell my boss that I wanted to pursue a management position. A few management courses later, I was in charge of a bunch of lazy civilian duffle bags like that.

That's when the real fun began. I became an expert on what I could and could not make them do. I'd pester them about keeping their desks clean, and constantly fucked with them over their time sheets.

You wouldn't believe how many times I caught them leaving 15 minutes early. I'd set little traps for them, like pretending that I had a meeting right around quitting time. I'd the go out to the parking lot and wait for them to come sneaking out of the building.

Damn cry babies tried to run to their union on me, but cheating on a time card is a big deal.

After I had caught them cheating on their time cards, I held it over them to make them clean the entire work area.

That's the great thing about the civilian world, a lot of times you can just ask to be put in charge and it will happen.

HA! That is awesome. I'm going to suggest doing that to our flight chief. Also, I'm going to have to start calling out sandjames every time I walk by fat civilian instructors to see which one reacts. This will take quite a while since there are so many.

sandsjames
11-12-2014, 08:23 PM
HA! That is awesome. I'm going to suggest doing that to our flight chief. Also, I'm going to have to start calling out sandjames every time I walk by fat civilian instructors to see which one reacts. This will take quite a while since there are so many.

Yes there are. And I'll answer, I promise. And I can get as fat as I want and there's not a damn thing anyone can do about it.

But I'll talk to you later. I'm off in 5 minutes and the boss is gone...so I'm leaving early. Enjoy PT.

SomeRandomGuy
11-12-2014, 08:26 PM
HA! That is awesome. I'm going to suggest doing that to our flight chief. Also, I'm going to have to start calling out sandjames every time I walk by fat civilian instructors to see which one reacts. This will take quite a while since there are so many.

I'm pretty sure on an old PYB thread sandsjames told us all who he is. I'm not going to out him but you can figure it out based on his screen name.

Absinthe Anecdote
11-12-2014, 08:32 PM
And I don't / didn't mean to bash the USAF in that statement, but would say I have seen that type of mentality more from Airmen than from personnel from the other services, going back to my first multi-service environment in 1993. To be fair, the runner up would be the Navy.

In the Air Force that type of attitude varies a lot between the different career fields. Cops aren't typically like that, and a lot of flight line personnel know how to get the job done.

Some Intel troops can get pretty soft about going the extra mile, but all they need is a good NCO to set them strait.

The worst are AGE mechanics and those guys who repair small generators. I think they are called PowerPoint Troops, or some shit like that. Anyway, if you ask one of them to move a generator out of the way, they will typically go look at the voltage of it, and then claim that they are only authorized to move generators of a specific voltage range. It's pretty funny stuff.

LogDog
11-12-2014, 09:23 PM
Yep, every generation ends up with a group of guys like that. Ask them to do something and they start crying about how it isn't their job.

I started working for defense contractors after I got out, and that world is full of them!

All I had to do was ask for a little responsibility, and tell my boss that I wanted to pursue a management position. A few management courses later, I was in charge of a bunch of lazy civilian duffle bags like that.

That's when the real fun began. I became an expert on what I could and could not make them do. I'd pester them about keeping their desks clean, and constantly fucked with them over their time sheets.

You wouldn't believe how many times I caught them leaving 15 minutes early. I'd set little traps for them, like pretending that I had a meeting right around quitting time. I'd the go out to the parking lot and wait for them to come sneaking out of the building.

Damn cry babies tried to run to their union on me, but cheating on a time card is a big deal.

After I had caught them cheating on their time cards, I held it over them to make them clean the entire work area.

That's the great thing about the civilian world, a lot of times you can just ask to be put in charge and it will happen.
The key here was you probably took the time to understand the union contract and hold them to it. When I was in, I read the union contract and had a copy of it at my desk. I also had a good relationship with the Group'sunion steward so whenever something came up I'd talk with him and smooth things over. One civilian had a habit of telling his previous supervisors he was going to go down on-base and talk to the union head. The first time he told me this I told him go ahead but if I find you you didn't do that I'd have paperwork for us to go over. Instead of going to the union head he went to the Group's union steward and was disappointed because the union steward sided with me. After a couple of times trying this, he decided to retire which suited me just fine.

LogDog
11-12-2014, 09:28 PM
In the Air Force that type of attitude varies a lot between the different career fields. Cops aren't typically like that, and a lot of flight line personnel know how to get the job done.

Some Intel troops can get pretty soft about going the extra mile, but all they need is a good NCO to set them strait.

The worst are AGE mechanics and those guys who repair small generators. I think they are called PowerPoint Troops, or some shit like that. Anyway, if you ask one of them to move a generator out of the way, they will typically go look at the voltage of it, and then claim that they are only authorized to move generators of a specific voltage range. It's pretty funny stuff.
I believe the AGE troops called themselves POWERPROs (Power Production).

sandsjames
11-12-2014, 09:36 PM
I believe the AGE troops called themselves POWERPROs (Power Production).

Not sure if you are trolling or not, but in case you aren't, I'll clarify. Power Pro are CE troops, the ones who make your life much nicer when you're deployed and allow you to do your job. AGE troops maintain the generators used on the aircraft, as well as other stuff. It's Aircraft Generation...two completely different career fields with two completely different missions.

If you were just trolling, then F you for wasting my time.

OtisRNeedleman
11-12-2014, 10:12 PM
I would say if doing those things is what is required to get things done, then that is what is required.



If you aren't authorized to do that work, then you shouldn't be doing it. That said, what if there were no people trained / certified and they needed someone / anyone to get that piece of gear working ... right now?

When I was assigned to a destroyer, after being there for about 2 months I was called into the CO's cabin and told the Ops O got fired and I was Ops. Now things to keep in mind:

-I would now be in charge of 3 additional divisions:
a. OT - the Cryptologists, Intel person, & EW guys (my original division)
b. Nav - the guys in charge of Navigation for the ship (not getting us grounded etc.)
c. OI - The guys that manage / run the Combat Information Center (where we control missile launches etc.)
d. OD - the guys handling all the ship's lines, anchors & chains, topside maintenance, refueling stations etc.
-There is a formal school for cruiser/destroyers Operations Officers.
-I was there on orders from 'big Navy' to be the Signals Warfare & Electronic Warfare Officer.

In none of those other areas did I have ANY experience, training or certifications. Realistically I could have told the CO I didn't have the required training to be Ops and since NAV & OD are seriously involved in the safety of the ship (no kidding can get people killed) and OI runs CIC he would be better served to find a prior Ops or work a deal with the DESRON to get a replacement; he may have told me to suck it up anyhow and then I could have leveraged BUPERs on the issue to a poor result for all concerned; I didn't. I took the job and figured it out. We were told that we would get a replacement in a month or so, it was almost 18 months. Now, when I got my Fitness Report about 6 months later I was ranked the #1 of 8 LT's on board ... despite my lack of training as Ops ... I am certain that FITREP had a direct impact on my selection to LCDR (O4) 2 years early.

Barring being told to do something that is: illegal, immoral, or unethical I think we all have an obligation to anything and everything to meet the mission ... whatever the mission may be.



Edit: 801 Posts ... huzzah!

Believe you're a cryptologic (SIGINT) officer, so you know the old saying...SIGINT officers can do anything! ;)

OtisRNeedleman
11-12-2014, 10:18 PM
The key here was you probably took the time to understand the union contract and hold them to it. When I was in, I read the union contract and had a copy of it at my desk. I also had a good relationship with the Group'sunion steward so whenever something came up I'd talk with him and smooth things over. One civilian had a habit of telling his previous supervisors he was going to go down on-base and talk to the union head. The first time he told me this I told him go ahead but if I find you you didn't do that I'd have paperwork for us to go over. Instead of going to the union head he went to the Group's union steward and was disappointed because the union steward sided with me. After a couple of times trying this, he decided to retire which suited me just fine.

As I was starting my last assignment learned that the government employees were very quick to file grievances, etc. One of the first things I did was go to the office of the head of the union on base, introduce myself, and listen to his concerns. Basically, I just treated everyone with courtesy and respect, even in difficult situations, as well as staying in touch with the union rep. Spent over three years without having any grievances filed against me. This was considered unusual.

sandsjames
11-12-2014, 10:26 PM
One of the things I've noticed is that the military bosses expect the DOD civilians to work late if necessary without wanting to pay overtime. Things like Commander's Calls, etc. I'd say the one thing that keeps most DOD civilians around is the fact that we are mostly former military and aren't going to bitch about staying a little bit late now and then if necessary, at no additional cost. As for people who have no prior military service or training, it's simply crazy to ask these things of them any more than you would at any civilian union job. However, for some reason the military guys don't see the issue. That's why union reps are brought in, and that's why grievances are filed. Don't forget, not every civilian you work with was as intensely trained on those core values as the rest of us!!!

LogDog
11-12-2014, 10:47 PM
Not sure if you are trolling or not, but in case you aren't, I'll clarify. Power Pro are CE troops, the ones who make your life much nicer when you're deployed and allow you to do your job. AGE troops maintain the generators used on the aircraft, as well as other stuff. It's Aircraft Generation...two completely different career fields with two completely different missions.

If you were just trolling, then F you for wasting my time.
I thought they were called POWERPROs. If that's what some CE troops are called then I was in error.

As for your trolling comment, back at you, Boy.

LogDog
11-12-2014, 10:54 PM
As I was starting my last assignment learned that the government employees were very quick to file grievances, etc. One of the first things I did was go to the office of the head of the union on base, introduce myself, and listen to his concerns. Basically, I just treated everyone with courtesy and respect, even in difficult situations, as well as staying in touch with the union rep. Spent over three years without having any grievances filed against me. This was considered unusual.
You did good. I've never took an adversarial attitude toward other sections or organizations because I knew I'd either need something from them or they'd need something from me and the better terms we were on the better we got along.

Making yourself known to the local union officials actually tells them you want to do the right thing with the civilian employees and are willing to work with the union. If an employee goes to the union complaining about you then the union leadership will try to reconcile what the employee is saying to what they know about you. It will be hard for the employee to paint a negative picture of you when the union leadership has a positive picture of you.

sandsjames
11-12-2014, 11:21 PM
I thought they were called POWERPROs. If that's what some CE troops are called then I was in error.

Nope...AGE are called AGE. Electrical Power Production is a Civil Engineer AFSC. How long have you been in? If you have a generator on your building which people come around and run monthly, that is a CE asset and is maintained by Power Pro.

LogDog
11-13-2014, 12:00 AM
Nope...AGE are called AGE. Electrical Power Production is a Civil Engineer AFSC. How long have you been in? If you have a generator on your building which people come around and run monthly, that is a CE asset and is maintained by Power Pro.
I've been retired for 10 years and my last five assignments, covering 12 years, I was in S. Korea, closure bases, and bases where our exercises didn't require us to be in the field. I did deploy to Croatia with a couple of 100 Kw generators but our Medical Maintenance guy took care of them.

OtisRNeedleman
11-13-2014, 02:13 AM
You did good. I've never took an adversarial attitude toward other sections or organizations because I knew I'd either need something from them or they'd need something from me and the better terms we were on the better we got along.

Making yourself known to the local union officials actually tells them you want to do the right thing with the civilian employees and are willing to work with the union. If an employee goes to the union complaining about you then the union leadership will try to reconcile what the employee is saying to what they know about you. It will be hard for the employee to paint a negative picture of you when the union leadership has a positive picture of you.


Yup, investing a little time up front can save a lot of time and hassle later. Helps build relationships; whenever the union rep came by I always showed him I was happy to see him.

Rainmaker
11-13-2014, 02:01 PM
Rainmaker stopped reading after:

"Although I wasn't in her chain of command, I've known this young woman throughout her career. I tried to reflect on this from a professional, albeit admittedly Biased, point of view."

sandsjames
11-13-2014, 03:52 PM
Rainmaker stopped reading after:

"Although I wasn't in her chain of command, I've known this young woman throughout her career. I tried to reflect on this from a professional, albeit admittedly Biased, point of view."

Too bad people can't separate the writer and the subject from the bigger point of the article.

Measure Man
11-13-2014, 03:57 PM
Too bad people can't separate the writer and the subject from the bigger point of the article.

Every one of these turns out the same way, it seems.

Pretty soon someone will write a rebuttal that says..."Many good troops also pass their PT test..." or something like that oh and something about accountability.

Rainmaker
11-13-2014, 04:14 PM
Too bad people can't separate the writer and the subject from the bigger point of the article.

Rainmaker get the point and agrees that What passes for "Leadership" in the military (as well as society in general) these days is pathetic.

However, since, we're only hearing one side of the story, it makes it impossible for him to make an objective value judgment in this case.

All we can discern is that this full bird feels this Airman is a "superstar" , while those in the best position to actually evaluate her character and performance ( chain of command) apparently, didn't share his burning enthusiasm for her.

so he decided to take it upon himself and publicly flame them. Rainmaker wonders What kind of O-6 airs organizational dirty laundry on the inter-webs like this? Rainmaker's bettin' there's probably more to this story than meets the eye (test). NomSayin?

sandsjames
11-13-2014, 04:21 PM
Rainmaker get the point and agrees that What passes for "Leadership" in the military (as well as society in general) these days is pathetic.

However, since, we're only hearing one side of the story, it makes it impossible for him to make an objective value judgment in this case.

All we can discern is that this full bird feels this Airman is a "superstar" , while those in the best position to actually evaluate her character and performance ( chain of command) apparently, don't share his burning enthusiasm for her.

so he decided to take it upon himself and publicly flame them on the net? Rainmaker wonders What kind of O-6 airs organizational dirty laundry on the interwebs like this? Rainmaker's bettin' there's probably more to this story than meets the eye (test). NomSayin?


I don't disagree. I'm just saying that if you take the names, the ranks, etc, out of it and look at the point of the way the military treats people who are "more than just a number" then the other stuff doesn't matter.

Rainmaker
11-13-2014, 04:31 PM
I don't disagree. I'm just saying that if you take the names, the ranks, etc, out of it and look at the point of the way the military treats people who are "more than just a number" then the other stuff doesn't matter.

Rainmaker scored a 98 on his PT test as a 38 year old with an infected wound still draining in his stomach from an open appendectomy following a 21 day stay in the hospital after his appendix ruptured and his blood went septic. It was the only time he ever got less than a 100 and it was due to situps being a Muhfugga with a hole in your gut. The Chief was naggin him about being past due (even though he was still on a profile). Rather than deal with all the hassle at the medical hobby shop. Rainmaker just nutted up, drank a couple adult beverages, popped a vicadin and gotter done.

He didn't expect Nobody to give him a medal for it, and pretty sure no full bird Colonels out there would've lost any sleep over it one way or the other. Then again Rainmaker ain't 125 lb female "superstar" with a heart shaped ass.

Quite frankly, It's not that hard. even on an "off day". Never the less, Rainmaker offer his sincere Thanks to this young lady for her faithful service and wishes her good luck in future endeavors. Aim High.

meatbringer
11-13-2014, 04:44 PM
Rainmaker scored a 98 on his PT test as a 38 year old with an infected wound still draining in his stomach from an open appendectomy following a 21 day stay in the hospital after his appendix ruptured and his blood went septic. It was the only time he ever got less than a 100 and it was due to situps being a Muhfugga with a hole in your gut. The Chief was naggin him about being past due (even though he was still on a profile). Rather than deal with all the hassle at the medical hobby shop. Rainmaker just nutted up, drank a couple adult beverages, popped a vicadin and gotter done.

He didn't expect Nobody to give him a medal for it, and pretty sure no full bird Colonels out there would've lost any sleep over it one way or the other. Then again Rainmaker ain't 125 lb female "superstar" with a heart shaped ass.

Quite frankly, It's not that hard. even on an "off day". Never the less, Rainmaker offer his sincere Thanks to this young lady for her faithful service and wishes her good luck in future endeavors. Aim High.


This is the best post I have seen on here in a while. You are now my hero.

sandsjames
11-13-2014, 04:48 PM
Rainmaker scored a 98 on his PT test as a 38 year old with an infected wound still draining in his stomach from an open appendectomy following a 21 day stay in the hospital after his appendix ruptured and his blood went septic. It was the only time he ever got less than a 100 and it was due to situps being a Muhfugga with a hole in your gut. The Chief was naggin him about being past due (even though he was still on a profile). Rather than deal with all the hassle at the medical hobby shop. Rainmaker just nutted up, drank a couple adult beverages, popped a vicadin and gotter done.

He didn't expect Nobody to give him a medal for it, and pretty sure no full bird Colonels out there would've lost any sleep over it one way or the other. Then again Rainmaker ain't 125 lb female "superstar" with a heart shaped ass.

Quite frankly, It's not that hard. even on an "off day". Never the less, Rainmaker offer his sincere Thanks to this young lady for her faithful service and wishes her good luck in future endeavors. Aim High.

Dude...why do you continue to miss the point of the article?

Mata Leao
11-13-2014, 04:49 PM
Rainmaker get the point and agrees that What passes for "Leadership" in the military (as well as society in general) these days is pathetic.

However, since, we're only hearing one side of the story, it makes it impossible for him to make an objective value judgment in this case.

All we can discern is that this full bird feels this Airman is a "superstar" , while those in the best position to actually evaluate her character and performance ( chain of command) apparently, didn't share his burning enthusiasm for her.

so he decided to take it upon himself and publicly flame them. Rainmaker wonders What kind of O-6 airs organizational dirty laundry on the inter-webs like this? Rainmaker's bettin' there's probably more to this story than meets the eye (test). NomSayin?

Does Rainmaker have a favorite college basketball team?

Absinthe Anecdote
11-13-2014, 04:50 PM
There are far more many good troops out there passing their PT tests than there are those who fail and cry foul.

This is nothing more than a case of a horny Colonel writing a letter and making an ass out of himself.

If that troop really cared, she would have aced her PT test on the first try.

Besides, nothing bad happened to her. She just decided to get out on her own. If you can't handle the rejection of being denied a medal, oh well!

I always made sure that I got a medal when I PCS'ed by taking care of business.

Part of that was kicking ass on the job, part was by running bake sales, the other part was kicking ass in the gym.

Looks like this troop and her benefactor Colonel don't understand that.

I'd guess they are the exact type of idiots that bought and ate my cupcakes.

A word to the wise, bake the cupcakes, but never eat them. If you get pressured into buying one, drop it in a trash can, not your mouth. Better yet, give it to some fool that is the same rank as you.

That article was just a bunch of weak thinking.

sandsjames
11-13-2014, 04:53 PM
Sometimes I miss PT God. He was so much better at this than you.

Absinthe Anecdote
11-13-2014, 04:54 PM
Sometimes I miss PT God. He was so much better at this than you.

Why don't you go whine to the mods about me some more?

Rainmaker
11-13-2014, 04:55 PM
Dude...why do you continue to miss the point of the article?

Rainmaker gets it. Diversity is our Greatest Strength.

Rainmaker
11-13-2014, 04:56 PM
Does Rainmaker have a favorite college basketball team?

It's great to be a Florida Gator!

Mata Leao
11-13-2014, 05:51 PM
Rainmaker writes like someone I know talks. His team is a little further north though. He isn't the type to waste time here anyway.

MRPHILLY1
11-13-2014, 06:11 PM
I agree that PT is a standard but shouldn't be the number one standard. As far as helping the Army out, I didn't have a problem with that. My problem is the Army trains every day to be the Army, the Air Force only wants to be warriors when we deploy with the Army. Case in point, why is it we only shoot when we deploy? Shouldn't we shoot every 6 months, regardless if we deploying or not? I suggested that and was turned down. The reason was it would cost too much to shoot every 6 months. One more thing, which irked me about the Air Force. Remember when everyone who being boarded for SMSgt and CMSgt had a deployment record? They took away the deployment records because people were complaining it wasn't fair to people who never deployed. That said a lot about the Air Force.

DannyJ
11-13-2014, 06:21 PM
I agree that PT is a standard but shouldn't be the number one standard. As far as helping the Army out, I didn't have a problem with that. My problem is the Army trains every day to be the Army, the Air Force only wants to be warriors when we deploy with the Army. Case in point, why is it we only shoot when we deploy? Shouldn't we shoot every 6 months, regardless if we deploying or not? I suggested that and was turned down. The reason was it would cost too much to shoot every 6 months. One more thing, which irked me about the Air Force. Remember when everyone who being boarded for SMSgt and CMSgt had a deployment record? They took away the deployment records because people were complaining it wasn't fair to people who never deployed. That said a lot about the Air Force.

The USAF (and all organizations for that matter) are ripe with hypocrisy. You can either choose to work with it or get out. All the complaining in the world isn't going to change unless enough people get behind it and push for change. I'd love to see PT get the focus it deserves rather than the end-all, be-all it's become, but that's not likely to change anytime soon, so I keep in shape and keep my job. \o/

giggawatt
11-13-2014, 06:26 PM
In the Air Force that type of attitude varies a lot between the different career fields. Cops aren't typically like that, and a lot of flight line personnel know how to get the job done.

Some Intel troops can get pretty soft about going the extra mile, but all they need is a good NCO to set them strait.

The worst are AGE mechanics and those guys who repair small generators. I think they are called PowerPoint Troops, or some shit like that. Anyway, if you ask one of them to move a generator out of the way, they will typically go look at the voltage of it, and then claim that they are only authorized to move generators of a specific voltage range. It's pretty funny stuff.

What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Power Pro Rangers, and I've been involved in numerous secret bare bases in Al-Qaeda land, and I have over 300 confirmed installs. I am trained in gorilla maintenance and I'm the top troubleshooter in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of power techs across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your internet. You're fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill your power in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in blind troubleshooting, but I have access to the entire WRM of the United States Air Force and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable network off the face of the continent, you little fuck. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, kiddo.

Rusty Jones
11-13-2014, 06:27 PM
The USAF (and all organizations for that matter) are ripe with hypocrisy. You can either choose to work with it or get out. All the complaining in the world isn't going to change unless enough people get behind it and push for change. I'd love to see PT get the focus it deserves rather than the end-all, be-all it's become, but that's not likely to change anytime soon, so I keep in shape and keep my job. \o/

It's a force-shaping tool and everyone knows it. No matter which service you're talking about, if they decide that they need to cut the force down by a certain amount; the FIRST place they're going to look is PT.

Rainmaker
11-13-2014, 06:59 PM
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Power Pro Rangers, and I've been involved in numerous secret bare bases in Al-Qaeda land, and I have over 300 confirmed installs. I am trained in gorilla maintenance and I'm the top troubleshooter in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of power techs across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your internet. You're fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill your power in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in blind troubleshooting, but I have access to the entire WRM of the United States Air Force and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable network off the face of the continent, you little fuck. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, kiddo.

Das Rayciss

Mata Leao
11-13-2014, 07:09 PM
I agree that PT is a standard but shouldn't be the number one standard. As far as helping the Army out, I didn't have a problem with that. My problem is the Army trains every day to be the Army, the Air Force only wants to be warriors when we deploy with the Army. Case in point, why is it we only shoot when we deploy? Shouldn't we shoot every 6 months, regardless if we deploying or not? I suggested that and was turned down. The reason was it would cost too much to shoot every 6 months. One more thing, which irked me about the Air Force. Remember when everyone who being boarded for SMSgt and CMSgt had a deployment record? They took away the deployment records because people were complaining it wasn't fair to people who never deployed. That said a lot about the Air Force.

How did you even remember your logon/password?

Measure Man
11-13-2014, 08:05 PM
Remember when everyone who being boarded for SMSgt and CMSgt had a deployment record?

No, when was this? I made SMSgt in 2001 and CMSgt in 2005, retired in 2010 and never heard of that...other than what was on your EPRs, or maybe a dec if you got one, I don't think there was a "deployment record"...what was supposed to be in it?


They took away the deployment records because people were complaining it wasn't fair to people who never deployed. That said a lot about the Air Force.

Don't remember this either.

sandsjames
11-13-2014, 08:53 PM
No, when was this? I made SMSgt in 2001 and CMSgt in 2005, retired in 2010 and never heard of that...other than what was on your EPRs, or maybe a dec if you got one, I don't think there was a "deployment record"...what was supposed to be in it?



Don't remember this either.

I don't know about records. I know that I heard from a couple MSgt's that they needed to deploy or they were never going to get promoted. Not sure if their supervisors told them this or they just made assumptions on their own. But not any sort of record that I know of.

Measure Man
11-13-2014, 09:02 PM
I don't know about records. I know that I heard from a couple MSgt's that they needed to deploy or they were never going to get promoted. Not sure if their supervisors told them this or they just made assumptions on their own. But not any sort of record that I know of.

It's definitely in your EPRs and it is definitely something the board looks for and pays attention to...depends on the career field as to how big of an issue it is for promotion...but, I just never heard of a "deployment record" in the promotion folder, or of it being removed due to complaints.

sandsjames
11-14-2014, 12:54 AM
It's definitely in your EPRs and it is definitely something the board looks for and pays attention to...depends on the career field as to how big of an issue it is for promotion...but, I just never heard of a "deployment record" in the promotion folder, or of it being removed due to complaints.


One thing I never liked about it is there are people (especially within the AEF rotations) who never get tasked to deploy and, because of that, are at a disadvantage. Of course you want to ensure you aren't promoting a deployment "dodger", but how can a person possible be rated on something they never had the opportunity to do?

fufu
11-14-2014, 01:45 AM
I have known/worked with a lot of people who I personally wish had 'cut bait' before retirement. I am not talking about someone at their 16/17 year mark who is getting frustrated/burned out, but people at 12, 10 and even 8 years of service who will tell you they 'hate' the military, who don't like what they do, have real bad attitudes and are basically (already) counting down to retirement. They don't do a poor enough job to get thrown out, but steal oxygen & energy from people around them.

What frustrates me: just based on the system they stand more of a chance of promoting than not promoting until you get to (maybe E-7) E-8, E-9 or O-5.

What confuses me: why do something you 'hate' for so long (even with the pension to consider)? As miserable as these types come across I could not do it myself.

Because we are stuck. I started counting down to retirement at my 10 year mark. I didn't want to re-enlist after my first term, but my wife was pregnant and I convinced myself that a new base would make it better.

Now at 16 years, I can't f'ing what to get out. I'm un-promotable....missed by 120 last year. My board scores are 330 and I'm not joining the Top 3 to get promoted. That little mafia is full of blue falcons. I won't be part of such a sham claiming to help Airman.

I will take care of my peeps. Do the minimum, get educated and have fun.

Absinthe Anecdote
11-14-2014, 04:06 AM
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Power Pro Rangers, and I've been involved in numerous secret bare bases in Al-Qaeda land, and I have over 300 confirmed installs. I am trained in gorilla maintenance and I'm the top troubleshooter in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of power techs across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your internet. You're fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill your power in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in blind troubleshooting, but I have access to the entire WRM of the United States Air Force and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable network off the face of the continent, you little fuck. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, kiddo.

Glad to see you know how to sac up, but most of you PowerPoint guys have real problems. They constantly complain about PT and leadership.

Some of them complain how bad it is, stay 20 years, then retire and go to work as a civilian at the small generator tech school and keep complaining.

I'm talking loud complaining too. Whines and makes more noise than those small generators you fix.

technomage1
11-14-2014, 07:00 AM
Rainmaker scored a 98 on his PT test as a 38 year old with an infected wound still draining in his stomach from an open appendectomy following a 21 day stay in the hospital after his appendix ruptured and his blood went septic. It was the only time he ever got less than a 100 and it was due to situps being a Muhfugga with a hole in your gut. The Chief was naggin him about being past due (even though he was still on a profile). Rather than deal with all the hassle at the medical hobby shop. Rainmaker just nutted up, drank a couple adult beverages, popped a vicadin and gotter done.

He didn't expect Nobody to give him a medal for it, and pretty sure no full bird Colonels out there would've lost any sleep over it one way or the other. Then again Rainmaker ain't 125 lb female "superstar" with a heart shaped ass.

Quite frankly, It's not that hard. even on an "off day". Never the less, Rainmaker offer his sincere Thanks to this young lady for her faithful service and wishes her good luck in future endeavors. Aim High.

So you were sick, could have died in fact, just got out of the hospital, and all your E-9 cared about was you were past due on your PT test? Really? I remember a time when Chiefs would go to bat for their troops and protect them from stupidity like that, not contribute to it.

giggawatt
11-14-2014, 08:04 AM
So you were sick, could have died in fact, just got out of the hospital, and all your E-9 cared about was you were past due on your PT test? Really? I remember a time when Chiefs would go to bat for their troops and protect them from stupidity like that, not contribute to it.

Yeah man, that's pretty fucked up. You're one tough Muhfugga RM but that was pretty retarded that you're E-9 cared that much about your overdue status.

Rusty Jones
11-14-2014, 10:43 AM
Colonel's call for better leadership touches a nerve


It was the shot heard 'round the Air Force.

On Nov. 7, Wright-Patterson Air Force base posted a commentary from 88th Communications Group commander Col. Donald Grannan entitled, "How did we lose this young Airman?" In the short space of a dozen paragraphs, Grannan related the story of a bright, talented, and driven airman he knew who, nevertheless, chose not to reenlist because "in her words, the Air Force had made it clear it didn't want her." He pointed the finger at failures in the service's leadership culture.

The anonymous airman — who was not in Grannan's chain of command — deployed twice, was a distinguished graduate of Airman Leadership School, aced her Enlisted Performance Reports, and earned staff sergeant her first time testing, Grannan said. But she also encountered a lack of support and encouragement from her superiors.

Grannan said the departing airman's superiors decided not to give her a decoration because she once failed the run portion of a physical fitness test, which she immediately re-took and passed.

"This young, healthy airman, who weighs a buck-twenty-five, did not have a fitness or standards problem," Grannan wrote. "She had a leadership problem. No one in her squadron leadership knew about or was present to witness her exceptional duty performance, her distinguished graduate accomplishment, her two deployments or early promotion. But they sure knew about the one time she stumbled."

Grannan clearly touched a nerve. Over the weekend, his commentary went viral. As of Nov. 13, it had been liked on Facebook at least 22,000 times, shared thousands more times, and been hotly debated over thousands of online comments. Some current and former airmen think Grannan has hit on serious problems with the Air Force's leadership that they see every day.

"Good on the Colonel," retired Master Sgt. Kirk Mooneyham wrote on the Air Force's Facebook page. "It's a message that the top level leadership really needs to hear, and take to heart. The Colonel hit the proverbial nail on the head with a giant sledgehammer."

Others said in comments they thought there was another side to the story that's not being told, or that young airmen should not expect to be coddled.

"Ya because it's all rainbows [and] roses in the real world," a commenter named Kelly Sanderson wrote on the Air Force's Facebook page. "I enlisted [on] the premise of what I could do for my country not what my country could do for me. It's shameful how recognition has become so important to those that 'volunteer' to serve."

In a Nov. 12 interview with Air Force Times, Grannan said he is shocked, but pleased, to see the debate his article sparked.

"I was absolutely floored," Grannan said. "I had no idea that issue was so prevalent and so passionate. I think that validates that we do have an issue here we need to look at."

Grannan said that when his turn to write a commander's commentary for Wright-Patterson's base newspaper came around, he wanted to write about leadership in a way airmen could relate to.

Grannan said he sees "a leadership gap" in the Air Force. He doesn't think the Air Force's leadership is failing out of maliciousness. But leaders at all levels are overworked and "task-saturated," he said, and are being forced to delegate more and more duties.

Delegation makes sense for some tasks and authorities, Grannan said. But when it comes to things that have a real effect on airmen's careers, lives and well-being, leaders shouldn't delegate and should make an effort to see what's really going on with those airmen.

"A lot of leaders at all levels are not engaged, and that makes it hard to make a whole person assessment," Grannan said. "It's hard to talk about a person when you're not engaged. As commanders and leaders, we owe them to be engaged and not delegate involvement."

Without that kind of engagement, he said, it's hard for supervisors to tell the difference between an airman who made and then learned from a mistake — such as the anonymous airman who failed a PT test — and a slacker who refuses to improve.

"This is nothing cosmic," Grannan said. "It's something every leader is taught at some point. We just have to make sure we're living up to it, and not missing out on opportunities because we have a responsibility to our airmen."

When asked whether he can be sure the problems he's highlighting aren't happening under his command, Grannan said, "That's a fair question."

"I like to think we're training supervisors and leaders well, and they're training their people well," Grannan said. "Every time an issue comes up, that's a teaching moment for subordinate leaders. We train leaders to be engaged."

For example, Grannan said, if there's a radio or phone outage at Wright-Patterson, he tries to go out and observe how his airmen are fixing the problem. Or if his airmen are setting up a network for a big event, he'll take a look and speak with his subordinate leaders to see how things are going.

"I want to walk around, [and have them] show me what's been done, and who's on shift, so I can say, 'Yes, they're great guys, I know they're on it,'" Grannan said.

But the trick to such "management by walking around," as Grannan called it, is to make sure leaders don't cross the line into micromanaging.

Grannan said his wing commander was supportive of his commentary.

"He appreciated that I tried to take a slightly different approach, and continually challenges wing leadership to take a look inward and see how we can make a difference," Grannan said in a follow-up email.

While the anonymous airman in the commentary wasn't in Grannan's chain of command, he doesn't entirely absolve himself of his responsibility for losing her. He described a minor traffic accident in which a senior noncommissioned officer's car hit hers from behind. The SNCO berated and intimidated the airman instead of admitting fault. When the airman asked her first sergeant for help, he didn't intervene — but neither did Grannan, though he was aware of what was going on.

"I could have interjected as well, but I mistakenly believed it wasn't my place," Grannan wrote. "It was. An airman needed help, and no one gave it."

Grannan said he doesn't necessarily have the solution to the Air Force's problems. He said he wanted to start a conversation — and that certainly has begun.

He declined to identify or talk more about the airman in the article.

"It could be anyone at any base," Grannan said. "There are similar issues happening a lot."

But as the Air Force continues to shrink, these issues will become even more important, Grannan said. A smaller Air Force can't afford to lose "superstars" like the airman he highlighted.

"These people are volunteers, and we need to remember that," Grannan said. "Less than one percent have raised their hand, and they deserve our absolute best leadership and oversight."

Read Grannan's commentary: How did we lose this young Airman?
http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/careers/air-force/2014/11/13/grannan-leadership-problems/18967273/

sandsjames
11-14-2014, 11:20 AM
Colonel's call for better leadership touches a nerve


http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/careers/air-force/2014/11/13/grannan-leadership-problems/18967273/

Nice article, and glad that it hits on the main points about the disconnect between leadership and subordinates, instead of on the individual case.

Rainmaker
11-14-2014, 01:19 PM
One thing I never liked about it is there are people (especially within the AEF rotations) who never get tasked to deploy and, because of that, are at a disadvantage. Of course you want to ensure you aren't promoting a deployment "dodger", but how can a person possible be rated on something they never had the opportunity to do?

The flip side of that is the guy on a 1:1 dwell that doesn't have time to work on the "whole person concept" (i.e. career student/party planner), since we compete for promotion against our peers in the same career field it should work itself out. Heaven forbid an organization that supposedly exists to win wars should seek to promote leaders that have personal experience deploying above those that don't.

Rainmaker
11-14-2014, 01:30 PM
Nah, he was an old school Chief. We'd gone to rival small town/football power High Schools growing up. so, It was more of a friendly naggin though. Rainmaker dig playing wiff Pain. He specially liked building his street cred when all the single ladies saw his bloody , sweaty, puss stained PT Uniform.

Absinthe Anecdote
11-14-2014, 02:25 PM
Nice article, and glad that it hits on the main points about the disconnect between leadership and subordinates, instead of on the individual case.

I suspect that the hotshot airmen who stumbled on her PT test was fictitious anyway.

As was all the evidence the Colonel presented, like her squadron commander who sent the First Sergeant to hand out stripes on the day she was promoted. Why? Because he was "too busy".

I know a bullshit story when I hear it, and that my friend is bullshit.

I bet if we look through the Colonel's records we'd find that he had trouble with PT, and that he isn't competitive for getting a star.

There is no disconnect with leadership. The disconnect is between people who aren't competitive and reality.

Measure Man
11-14-2014, 02:48 PM
One thing I never liked about it is there are people (especially within the AEF rotations) who never get tasked to deploy and, because of that, are at a disadvantage. Of course you want to ensure you aren't promoting a deployment "dodger", but how can a person possible be rated on something they never had the opportunity to do?

See, I don't think promotions need to "be fair" necessarily. I think we need to promote the most qualified...someone else didn't have the same opportunity because they are EFMP and couldn't go overseas? I don't really care...give me the most qualified. Someone didn't get the opportunity to deploy, or worse yet, medically ineligible to deploy? So, what...give me the most qualified? Life doesn't have to be fair...it isn't fair that my parents couldn't afford to send me to medical school...doesn't mean I should get to be a doctor.

That's not to say someone without a deployment shouldn't get promoted...I got promoted without a desert deployment. But, I think a deployment is a good thing and someone should be given whatever appropriate credit for it...and I don't care if someone else didn't have the same opportunity. If that experience made person A a better leader, NCO or technician...it should be noted for promotion.

I know you guys in the "everyone gets a trophy" generation believe life should be fair and promotion and advancement should be fair...it isn't, and doesn't have to be, IMO. :-)

Rusty Jones
11-14-2014, 02:50 PM
See, I don't think promotions need to "be fair" necessarily. I think we need to promote the most qualified...someone else didn't have the same opportunity because they are EFMP and couldn't go overseas? I don't really care...give me the most qualified. Someone didn't get the opportunity to deploy, or worse yet, medically ineligible to deploy? So, what...give me the most qualified? Life doesn't have to be fair...it isn't fair that my parents couldn't afford to send me to medical school...doesn't mean I should get to be a doctor.

That's not to say someone without a deployment shouldn't get promoted...I got promoted without a desert deployment. But, I think a deployment is a good thing and someone should be given whatever appropriate credit for it...and I don't care if someone else didn't have the same opportunity. If that experience made person A a better leader, NCO or technician...it should be noted for promotion.

I know you guys in the "everyone gets a trophy" generation believe life should be fair and promotion and advancement should be fair...it isn't, and doesn't have to be, IMO. :-)

I think that this is less about what's fair, and more about a methodology that actually makes sense.

Measure Man
11-14-2014, 02:52 PM
I think that this is less about what's fair, and more about a methodology that actually makes sense.

I don't know what you mean...what is the "this" you are referring to?

SomeRandomGuy
11-14-2014, 02:56 PM
See, I don't think promotions need to "be fair" necessarily. I think we need to promote the most qualified...someone else didn't have the same opportunity because they are EFMP and couldn't go overseas? I don't really care...give me the most qualified. Someone didn't get the opportunity to deploy, or worse yet, medically ineligible to deploy? So, what...give me the most qualified? Life doesn't have to be fair...it isn't fair that my parents couldn't afford to send me to medical school...doesn't mean I should get to be a doctor.

That's not to say someone without a deployment shouldn't get promoted...I got promoted without a desert deployment. But, I think a deployment is a good thing and someone should be given whatever appropriate credit for it...and I don't care if someone else didn't have the same opportunity. If that experience made person A a better leader, NCO or technician...it should be noted for promotion.

I know you guys in the "everyone gets a trophy" generation believe life should be fair and promotion and advancement should be fair...it isn't, and doesn't have to be, IMO. :-)

If the Air Force really cared about promoting the most qualified why the constant push for special duties in the name of career broadening? I'm pretty sure the four years a person spent as a recruiter probably have almost no bearing on whether or not that person is qualified to be the security forces flight chief or NCOIC of military pay.

How many other companies work like that? SomeRandomGuy you are an excellent accountant, why don't you try out sales for a few years. If you are successful at that we will promote you to CFO.

Rusty Jones
11-14-2014, 02:59 PM
I don't know what you mean...what is the "this" you are referring to?

Are you trying to troll me or something? Fuck it, I'll take the bait - I meant the talk about removing deployments from consideration for promotion.

Measure Man
11-14-2014, 03:12 PM
If the Air Force really cared about promoting the most qualified why the constant push for special duties in the name of career broadening? I'm pretty sure the four years a person spent as a recruiter probably have almost no bearing on whether or not that person is qualified to be the security forces flight chief or NCOIC of military pay.

Fair argument. I think when they look at "career broadening", those folks are looking to making a good Chief someday, not a good NCOIC. I know in Maintenance we roll our eyes when we are getting a MSgt back from special duty...figuring they ain't gonna know shit.


How many other companies work like that? SomeRandomGuy you are an excellent accountant, why don't you try out sales for a few years. If you are successful at that we will promote you to CFO.

I hear ya.

Then again...how many other companies promote strictly from within from top to bottom?

What if...if the AF needed a squadron chief...a civilian with 25 years experience could apply and be hired in as a CMSgt? Whoa

Measure Man
11-14-2014, 03:15 PM
Are you trying to troll me or something? Fuck it, I'll take the bait - I meant the talk about removing deployments from consideration for promotion.

Not trying to troll you.

I think it makes more sense to consider deployments...though I don't know of a "deployment record" that was ever in our promotion folders...evidence of deployments is in EPRs and Decorations...and I'm really sorry for the folks that haven't had the opportunity, but if a deployment makes someone better qualified, we should consider it. Granted, that qualification is more relevant in some career fields than others...cops? yeah deployment is big. Space Operator? Not so much.

So, you're a cop that has been locked down involuntarily as a tech school instructor with no deployment opportunity? Sorry, but you're probably not the most qualified for promotion.

What methodology are you saying makes sense?

sandsjames
11-14-2014, 03:50 PM
See, I don't think promotions need to "be fair" necessarily. I think we need to promote the most qualified...someone else didn't have the same opportunity because they are EFMP and couldn't go overseas? I don't really care...give me the most qualified. Someone didn't get the opportunity to deploy, or worse yet, medically ineligible to deploy? So, what...give me the most qualified? Life doesn't have to be fair...it isn't fair that my parents couldn't afford to send me to medical school...doesn't mean I should get to be a doctor.

That's not to say someone without a deployment shouldn't get promoted...I got promoted without a desert deployment. But, I think a deployment is a good thing and someone should be given whatever appropriate credit for it...and I don't care if someone else didn't have the same opportunity. If that experience made person A a better leader, NCO or technician...it should be noted for promotion.

I know you guys in the "everyone gets a trophy" generation believe life should be fair and promotion and advancement should be fair...it isn't, and doesn't have to be, IMO. :-)I'm not saying that it has to be fair. And I'm not from the "everyone gets a trophy" generation. My concern is(was) that it seems like more than a few times a non-deployed MSgt was almost immediately disqualified. Not because he wasn't qualified for the job but because he didn't have a deployment. Now, I can't speak to whether or not this was actually the case because I didn't get to that point. It may have just been an excuse from the E7s as to why they think they got screwed. I'm just speaking on what I heard (and also heard briefed at "Chief's luncheons and such) about what it was going to take to get promoted.

It's never going to be fair, because different bases have different missions. I just don't think there should be certain qualifiers, other than an individual is capable of doing the job at a high level.

Measure Man
11-14-2014, 04:10 PM
I'm not saying that it has to be fair. And I'm not from the "everyone gets a trophy" generation. My concern is(was) that it seems like more than a few times a non-deployed MSgt was almost immediately disqualified.

I think this is possible, especially based on career field. It also matters WHO is on the board that cycle.

There is no doubt that there are some Chiefs running around the AF who are of the opinion that anyone in this day that has not had a deployment must have actively been avoiding going. That opinion is based on their own experiences, no doubt, and I know they are wrong...but I also know those Chiefs exist and they could very likely be on a promotion board. I've seen this a lot with cops, who get sooo many deployment taskings, they can not comprehend that there is not much need for a Space Operator in Afghanistan...or that some career fields only deploy SSgts and TSgts...or MSgt and below, etc. Even within Maintenance, there are some AFSCs that have a much smaller deployment footprint than others...and some of the MX Chiefs don't even get that.


Not because he wasn't qualified for the job but because he didn't have a deployment. Now, I can't speak to whether or not this was actually the case because I didn't get to that point. It may have just been an excuse from the E7s as to why they think they got screwed. I'm just speaking on what I heard (and also heard briefed at "Chief's luncheons and such) about what it was going to take to get promoted.

It's never going to be fair, because different bases have different missions. I just don't think there should be certain qualifiers, other than an individual is capable of doing the job at a high level.

I don't think lack of deployment should be an automatic disqualifier, either. I also don't think it should be discounted just because some people may not have had the opportunity. Whether or not "no deployment" should be seen as a negative factor really depends on the career field.

I said all that to say this: I have no problem with it being seen as a negative factor, even though someone was not given the opportunity.

sandsjames
11-14-2014, 04:40 PM
I said all that to say this: I have no problem with it being seen as a negative factor, even though someone was not given the opportunity.

Of course not...depending on the situation and the individual.

Overall, I'm not sure it really makes that big of a difference, other than a year or two, because those who "deserve" or "earn" a promotion to E8/E9 are going to get past the hurdles anyway, for the most part. I've seen a lot of people at E8/E9 who shouldn't be there but I've never seen someone who should be there, who has done what it take to be there, not make it.

Measure Man
11-14-2014, 05:31 PM
I've never seen someone who should be there, who has done what it take to be there, not make it.

I would tend to agree...although I think I've seen some folks that would have made great Chiefs just run out of HYT time...I guess you could say they didn't do what it takes by making the other ranks fast enough to give themselves more time...I've always told people the first step to making Chief is to make MSgt fairly quickly.

Overall, as another thing I've always said...the only thing it really takes to make Chief is the desire to make it. If you want to enough, anyone can do it...although you can't wait until you are a 26-year MSgt to want to...it's not that you have to want Chief and stare at the chevorns every night when you are TSgt, but you have to want that next promotion and then the one after that, I think.

LogDog
11-14-2014, 06:38 PM
Not trying to troll you.

I think it makes more sense to consider deployments...though I don't know of a "deployment record" that was ever in our promotion folders...evidence of deployments is in EPRs and Decorations...and I'm really sorry for the folks that haven't had the opportunity, but if a deployment makes someone better qualified, we should consider it. Granted, that qualification is more relevant in some career fields than others...cops? yeah deployment is big. Space Operator? Not so much.
Deployments will be, like you said, in the EPRs and decorations. One problem with the SMSgt & Chief Boards is the Colonels and CMSgts on the boards review the promotion packages of members outside their career fields and may not have much contact or knowledge of what those fields entail. In my career field, it was not unusual for a person to never to deploy simply because there weren't many opportunities to deploy. As I told my brother, who retired as a Army E-8, what put me over the top for SMSgt was I did a four month deployment during the Balkans Crisis in the mid-90s. I figured it was the deployment mainly because the Colonels and Chiefs zeroed in on that more than anything.

LogDog
11-14-2014, 06:46 PM
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Power Pro Rangers, and I've been involved in numerous secret bare bases in Al-Qaeda land, and I have over 300 confirmed installs. I am trained in gorilla maintenance and I'm the top troubleshooter in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of power techs across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your internet. You're fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill your power in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in blind troubleshooting, but I have access to the entire WRM of the United States Air Force and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable network off the face of the continent, you little fuck. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, kiddo.
Well, it's good to know you are more than qualified to replace that fuse you just blew.http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/grin-0003.gif

Absinthe Anecdote
11-14-2014, 07:01 PM
Well, it's good to know you are more than qualified to replace that fuse you just blew.http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/grin-0003.gif

However, if it is a 1.21 Jigawatt fuse, then he has to wrap the entire generator up and send it back to the factory.

LogDog
11-14-2014, 07:17 PM
However, if it is a 1.21 Jigawatt fuse, then he has to wrap the entire generator up and send it back to the factory.
Nah, he'd just need a Clock Tower, a Delorean car going 88 miles per hour, cable and a lightening storm.

UncommonSense
11-14-2014, 10:37 PM
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Power Pro Rangers, and I've been involved in numerous secret bare bases in Al-Qaeda land, and I have over 300 confirmed installs. I am trained in gorilla maintenance and I'm the top troubleshooter in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of power techs across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your internet. You're fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill your power in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in blind troubleshooting, but I have access to the entire WRM of the United States Air Force and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable network off the face of the continent, you little fuck. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, kiddo.

Ahhh, the good ol' Navy Seal copy pasta. Nice.

MACHINE666
11-16-2014, 11:33 AM
This story seems to be picking up speed in AF circles...

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123430954

So it finally takes a full bird to address what I've been saying for all these years. Perhaps people will begin to listen?

Absinthe Anecdote
11-16-2014, 12:36 PM
I just saw a picture of Col Grannan, and just as I suspected he is overweight.

He has zero credibility, and it is pretty obvious that the airman in his story is a complete fabrication.

I have no doubt that the PT failure in the story is his own, and that the "stumble" he references is his own.

Just another case of sour grapes from someone who can't hack the competition.

Capt Alfredo
11-16-2014, 09:58 PM
I just saw a picture of Col Grannan, and just as I suspected he is overweight.

He has zero credibility, and it is pretty obvious that the airman in his story is a complete fabrication.

I have no doubt that the PT failure in the story is his own, and that the "stumble" he references is his own.

Just another case of sour grapes from someone who can't hack the competition.

You've done better troll work than this. 4/10

P.S. I too suspect that the airman in question may not exist.

Absinthe Anecdote
11-16-2014, 11:34 PM
You've done better troll work than this. 4/10

P.S. I too suspect that the airman in question may not exist.

That is obviously a made up story, and anyone who takes that tub-of-lard at his word is gullible as hell. He is just bitter that he can't make O-7.

He should be happy with O-6, that's actually a very respectable rank to retire at, considering how fat he is.

PS

What is this 4/10 crap?

Of all the mean and spiteful comments that get tossed around on this forum, that one takes the cake.

I don't understand how you can say something so vile and mean spirited.

technomage1
11-17-2014, 07:40 AM
Here is a side view. It's admittedly 2 years old, but it sure doesn't look like he's anything like a porker. My guess is the file photo isn't flattering and shows a weak chin more than anything.

http://www.afcent.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/136/Article/218400/first-air-force-contingency-postal-office-offers-debit-and-credit-card-transact.aspx

Even he is overweight or made up an example, that doesn't mean he's wrong. I think the number of people this has resonated with shows the truth of his words.

Capt Alfredo
11-17-2014, 09:10 AM
That is obviously a made up story, and anyone who takes that tub-of-lard at his word is gullible as hell. He is just bitter that he can't make O-7.

He should be happy with O-6, that's actually a very respectable rank to retire at, considering how fat he is.

PS

What is this 4/10 crap?

Of all the mean and spiteful comments that get tossed around on this forum, that one takes the cake.

I don't understand how you can say something so vile and mean spirited.

I guess I'll have to upgrade you to 6/10 since technomage1 fell for it. I think your troll effort was a bit too, hmm, shall we say, broad, much like the cross-section of the maligned colonel, according to you.

Absinthe Anecdote
11-17-2014, 10:33 AM
Here is a side view. It's admittedly 2 years old, but it sure doesn't look like he's anything like a porker. My guess is the file photo isn't flattering and shows a weak chin more than anything.

http://www.afcent.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/136/Article/218400/first-air-force-contingency-postal-office-offers-debit-and-credit-card-transact.aspx

Even he is overweight or made up an example, that doesn't mean he's wrong. I think the number of people this has resonated with shows the truth of his words.

Wrong wrong wrong!

But you are right about the weak chin. It produces weak words that resonate with weak people.

That crap about the commander blowing off the traditional walk around his unit to hand out stripes is a gigantic load of crap.

That attitude isn't pervasive in the Air Force by a long shot.

If the people who claim leadership is out of touch with the troops have to make up bullshit stories to illustrate examples of it, that screams weakness.

The people falling for such fairy tales are even weaker.

I suspect you might have photoshopped his belly away.

sandsjames
11-17-2014, 10:55 AM
I guess I'll have to upgrade you to 6/10 since technomage1 fell for it. I think your troll effort was a bit too, hmm, shall we say, broad, much like the cross-section of the maligned colonel, according to you.

Unfortunately he's forgotten how to have a real conversations. He's become irrelevant on this forum. He used to make points and do a little trolling on the side. Now he has no points to be made and the trolling (a poor imitation of Bruwin) has long overstayed it's welcome.

technomage1
11-17-2014, 07:01 PM
Wrong wrong wrong!

But you are right about the weak chin. It produces weak words that resonate with weak people.

That crap about the commander blowing off the traditional walk around his unit to hand out stripes is a gigantic load of crap.

That attitude isn't pervasive in the Air Force by a long shot.

If the people who claim leadership is out of touch with the troops have to make up bullshit stories to illustrate examples of it, that screams weakness.

The people falling for such fairy tales are even weaker.

I suspect you might have photoshopped his belly away.

Well, I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but your claim that I hacked into the AFCENT website and photoshopped his picture (not to mention the rest of your response) clearly marks you as a troll...welcome to my ignore list.

Not sure what's happened to you lately but sandsjanes is right. I hope you decide to have real conversations again someday.

Rusty Jones
11-18-2014, 10:44 AM
Well, I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but your claim that I hacked into the AFCENT website and photoshopped his picture (not to mention the rest of your response) clearly marks you as a troll...welcome to my ignore list.

Not sure what's happened to you lately but sandsjanes is right. I hope you decide to have real conversations again someday.

Something happened with him in that PFC Pemberton thread. AA and I are both liberal, so a rare breed on MTF and we've always agreed on a lot of things; so I figured that after squabble on that thread, all of that would be in the past. Man, was I wrong!

When you're fresh out of friends, and you can't interact with people positively... you may as well interact with them negatively. Interaction is still interaction...

Absinthe Anecdote
11-18-2014, 10:57 AM
Something happened with him in that PFC Pemberton thread. AA and I are both liberal, so a rare breed on MTF and we've always agreed on a lot of things; so I figured that after squabble on that thread, all of that would be in the past. Man, was I wrong!

When you're fresh out of friends, and you can't interact with people positively... you may as well interact with them negatively. Interaction is still interaction...

I was duped into acting negatively. Once I got a taste of messing with people, it became a habit that I can't stop.

Perhaps I needed this intervention? I going to take a break and think long and hard about it.

I might even go do something else long and hard too, if you know what I mean.

Rusty Jones
11-18-2014, 11:01 AM
I might even go do something else long and hard too, if you know what I mean.

Well, if you want something "long and hard" to do; you're barking up the wrong tree. I know you want it and everything, but you're not gonna dupe me.

Anyone else here with something "long and hard" that wants to take one for the team? You have something that AA wants to "do."

Absinthe Anecdote
11-18-2014, 11:21 AM
Well, if you want something "long and hard" to do; you're barking up the wrong tree. I know you want it and everything, but you're not gonna dupe me.

Anyone else here with something "long and hard" that wants to take one for the team? You have something that AA wants to "do."

Thanks for trying to help, but I've got it covered.

I'll just drive down to Newport News and pick up a bored Navy wife.

Rusty Jones
11-18-2014, 11:26 AM
Thanks for trying to help, but I've got it covered.

I'll just drive down to Newport News and pick up a bored Navy wife.

Wrong city. You're only gonna find Army wives there, and they're ugliest wives of all the services. You're probably better off playing with "long and hard" things. Whatever floats your boat, bud.

TJMAC77SP
11-18-2014, 04:15 PM
Something happened with him in that PFC Pemberton thread. AA and I are both liberal, so a rare breed on MTF and we've always agreed on a lot of things; so I figured that after squabble on that thread, all of that would be in the past. Man, was I wrong!

When you're fresh out of friends, and you can't interact with people positively... you may as well interact with them negatively. Interaction is still interaction...

You consider your posting on the Pemberton thread to be liberal in nature ?!?!?!?!

sandsjames
11-18-2014, 07:36 PM
You consider your posting on the Pemberton thread to be liberal in nature ?!?!?!?!

This type of question shows how messed up our party system is. Someone can be liberal or conservative on almost everything but if they don't follow stereotypical party lines on everything there their "allegiance" to the party is questioned.

Rusty Jones
11-20-2014, 01:03 PM
Why not? As an Airman I had a Colonel who knew this much and more about me as an A1C. I happened to coach the squadron softball team and he played on the team. We often hung around at the fields after the game and had a few beers. Was the Colonel supposed to ignore everyone at these events? Should he have braindumped anything he heard. By the way the squadron softball team was open to everyone and even people who weren't good at softball would come hang out sometimes. It was open to everyone. This same commander also invitited all the Airmen over to his house for christmas dinner and board games. Not everyone took the invitation but those with nowhere else do go normally did.

Why would a Colonel play on a squadron softball team, when he shouldn't belong to a squadron to begin with?

What I'm saying is that if he's, say, a group commander... he potentially has thousands of people under his charge. Again, unless Staff Sergeant Joe Schmoe is on staff duty at the group level; he should be just another face in the crowd.

SomeRandomGuy
11-20-2014, 01:52 PM
Why would a Colonel play on a squadron softball team, when he shouldn't belong to a squadron to begin with?

What I'm saying is that if he's, say, a group commander... he potentially has thousands of people under his charge. Again, unless Staff Sergeant Joe Schmoe is on staff duty at the group level; he should be just another face in the crowd.

He's the COMM Group commander which is really just the size of a normal sized Maintenance Squadron. He might have 1000 people under him but I doubt if he has more than 200 military. I doubt he knows this girl from Squadron Softball more likely it's something like a church relationship.

It is also possible he knows her from profesional interactions. I used to be in charge of Distinguished Visitor (DV) inprocessing for Finance. If someone was a Col or higher we did a one on one inprocessing for them. I used to know quite a few high ranking individuals even some Generals who remembered me by first name. I would see them from time to time and they would stop and talk to me. That much I can believe is possible with this Col. It wouldn't surprise me if he was at her ALS graduation because one of his troops was graduating. It also wouldn't surprise me if he ran into her at the Dayton airport while she was deploying. That place isn't big.

The big question mark is how the hell does he know about the car accident and the failed PT test? The car accident had to be something where either her or someone in his chain of command directly talked to him about. The PT failure part I could understand as something he learned about after she got out. Maybe he saw her crying on her way out the gate because she didn't get a medal.

Measure Man
11-20-2014, 03:19 PM
Why would a Colonel play on a squadron softball team, when he shouldn't belong to a squadron to begin with?

No reason he can't...maybe he enjoys softball. If a unit such as a group does not have a team of their own, members of the group may play for subordinate units...or may enter the player draft and be picked by any team.

I had a wing commander that was an outstanding volleyball player...played for the Academy, I believe, and he played for a squadron team.


What I'm saying is that if he's, say, a group commander... he potentially has thousands of people under his charge. Again, unless Staff Sergeant Joe Schmoe is on staff duty at the group level; he should be just another face in the crowd.

Do you really not ever know anybody well unless they are in your chain of commmand? This is all pointless speculating about nothing. There are a thousand ways he may have gotten to know an Airman...I know hundreds of people that are not in my chain of command, some better than others...some are Colonels, some are Airmen.

Mjölnir
11-20-2014, 05:35 PM
/Thread Split

The abortion discussion was moved to a new tread "Abortion Topic" in the Politics and Government Section

http://forums.militarytimes.com/showthread.php/8980-Abortion-Topic

Zxc
11-25-2014, 09:43 PM
I haven't read all of the comments, I'd rather post my own first.

This isn't about being denied a decoration due to a failed PT test and getting out. This is about a lack of job satisfaction and belonging that drove the Airman to believe that this wasn't the life for her.

I can relate. I've been in just shy of nine years. I made SrA BTZ, and SSgt/TSgt both the first time. I have numerous quarterly and annual awards, and have never NOT received a decoration from a tour or deployment. In short, I've had a great career--things look bright.

That being said, I'm at a loss for the future. I don't feel like I belong here anymore. I have a dwindling passion for my AF career that is fueled by my feelings about leadership and an excessive focus on perceptions and "looking good on paper" rather than mission focus. Yes, this includes the excessive focus we have on awards programs--the same awards programs that reflect well on my career.

I recently re-enlisted for another four years, and regretfully it had much more to do with not being ready to pursue a civilian-based career than it did with wanting to continue this one.

This Airman could have been me.

Absinthe Anecdote
11-26-2014, 10:45 AM
I haven't read all of the comments, I'd rather post my own first.

This isn't about being denied a decoration due to a failed PT test and getting out. This is about a lack of job satisfaction and belonging that drove the Airman to believe that this wasn't the life for her.

I can relate. I've been in just shy of nine years. I made SrA BTZ, and SSgt/TSgt both the first time. I have numerous quarterly and annual awards, and have never NOT received a decoration from a tour or deployment. In short, I've had a great career--things look bright.

That being said, I'm at a loss for the future. I don't feel like I belong here anymore. I have a dwindling passion for my AF career that is fueled by my feelings about leadership and an excessive focus on perceptions and "looking good on paper" rather than mission focus. Yes, this includes the excessive focus we have on awards programs--the same awards programs that reflect well on my career.

I recently re-enlisted for another four years, and regretfully it had much more to do with not being ready to pursue a civilian-based career than it did with wanting to continue this one.

This Airman could have been me.

I understand what you are talking about. I never intended making a career out of the military either, but circumstances and my mindset at the 10 year point led me to keep going.

Let's face it, the military isn't the greatest job in the world.

If a person is going to stay and be happy, they have to adjust to the lifestyle that comes with being in the military.

This next part isn't directed at you, but at a certain group of loud complainers, moaners, and intellectually dishonest crybabies, who claim AF leaders are hypocrites.

I get so tired of people complaining about leadership not caring.

Bullshit!

Most leaders care very much; however, they have to protect the needs of the service over those of the individual.

That alone will make upper echelon leadership seem hypocritical at times. Hell, that isn't unique to the military. It is that way in any large organization.

What really grinds my gears, are these crybabies who moan the loudest, are forgetting about the guys who make the ultimate sacrifice. Let's not forget about the guys who come home missing limbs and with other life changing injuries.

Back at the height of the war, in 2007, every last Friday of the month at the Pentagon, they would bring a bunch of the wounded over from Walter Reed to walk, limp, or roll down the corridors.

People would line up, say thank you to them and cheer them.

I'll never forget the look on the faces of these wounded men. Some were smiling, but some were not, they looked very pissed off. Those dudes earned their right to complain about leadership in my book.

The airmen that Colonel Grannan describes in his article, didn't have it bad.

These PT complainers, people who can't study enough to make rank, end-of-tour medal whiners really should STFU.

When leadership sends you into the meat grinder and you come away missing an arm or a leg, then you can complain.

sandsjames
11-26-2014, 11:21 AM
I understand what you are talking about. I never intended making a career out of the military either, but circumstances and my mindset at the 10 year point led me to keep going.

Let's face it, the military isn't the greatest job in the world.

If a person is going to stay and be happy, they have to adjust to the lifestyle that comes with being in the military.

This next part isn't directed at you, but at a certain group of loud complainers, moaners, and intellectually dishonest crybabies, who claim AF leaders are hypocrites.

I get so tired of people complaining about leadership not caring.

Bullshit!

Most leaders care very much; however, they have to protect the needs of the service over those of the individual.

That alone will make upper echelon leadership seem hypocritical at times. Hell, that isn't unique to the military. It is that way in any large organization.

What really grinds my gears, are these crybabies who moan the loudest, are forgetting about the guys who make the ultimate sacrifice. Let's not forget about the guys who come home missing limbs and with other life changing injuries.

Back at the height of the war, in 2007, every last Friday of the month at the Pentagon, they would bring a bunch of the wounded over from Walter Reed to walk, limp, or roll down the corridors.

People would line up, say thank you to them and cheer them.

I'll never forget the look on the faces of these wounded men. Some were smiling, but some were not, they looked very pissed off. Those dudes earned their right to complain about leadership in my book.

The airmen that Colonel Grannan describes in his article, didn't have it bad.

These PT complainers, people who can't study enough to make rank, end-of-tour medal whiners really should STFU.

When leadership sends you into the meat grinder and you come away missing an arm or a leg, then you can complain.

Actually, the only ones who should complain are the families of those who don't come back at all. The guys/gals without limbs have it pretty good. Oh, wait, the only complainers should be those who get torchered, then killed, because those who die quickly didn't suffer.

Someone always has it worse. Doesn't mean things are hunky dory for everyone else.

Absinthe Anecdote
11-26-2014, 12:07 PM
Actually, the only ones who should complain are the families of those who don't come back at all. The guys/gals without limbs have it pretty good. Oh, wait, the only complainers should be those who get torchered, then killed, because those who die quickly didn't suffer.

Someone always has it worse. Doesn't mean things are hunky dory for everyone else.

I can't imagine you'd say that to the face of one of our combat wounded. You should delete that post. Plus, you spelled tortured the way garkhal spells it.

Back to Colonel Grannan's editorial. I could write an editorial too, if I did, it would sound something like this:

I am reminded of someone I knew who retired as an E-6 and blamed everyone but himself.

I wasn't in his chain of command, but I watched his career from afar. He complained his whole career, always looked shitty in uniform, struggled with PT tests and maintaining his body weight.

He was an average worker in the base "fix-it" shop, but claimed he was a wizard on the job. He also criticized every decision from AF leadership, and talked like he knew a lot about leadership. Despite supervising only a few small work details. Toward the end of his career he was a NCOIC of a small shop, but this guy talked like he knew more about leadership than Generals.

Despite his claims, I watched his scores on the promotion tests each year. Shitty SKT and PFE scores year after year. He never would buckle down and study, or go to the gym and rectify his lack luster PT scores.

He got his CCAF degree, but complained about doing that.

I continued watching him from a far, as he neared retirement he talked about how happy he'd be upon getting out. About how fed up he was with the Air Force, and it's uncaring leaders.

Much to my surprise, he accepted a low paying GS-7 job in virtually the same shop he was in when he retired.

From afar, I heard him complain about hypocrites, I so very badly wanted to hand this former airman a mirror.

I would have thought he would have the courage to try something different with the rest of his life.

But alas, he seemed a litter happier as a GS-7 since he no longer had to do PT or put on a uniform.

Why did we keep this airman?

sandsjames
11-26-2014, 01:39 PM
I can't imagine you'd say that to the face of one of our combat wounded. You should delete that post. Just pointing out that someone always has it worse. This doesn't mean that others don't have problems also. I wouldn't put anyone down who came back the way you mentioned. That's not the issue. That's like saying that our poor and homeless in this country have nothing to complain about because the poor in 3rd world countries are really the ones suffering.


Plus, you spelled tortured the way garkhal spells it.

Dammit!!

Absinthe Anecdote
11-26-2014, 01:50 PM
Just pointing out that someone always has it worse. This doesn't mean that others don't have problems also. I wouldn't put anyone down who came back the way you mentioned. That's not the issue. That's like saying that our poor and homeless in this country have nothing to complain about because the poor in 3rd world countries are really the ones suffering.

Dammit!!

Okay, someone always has it worse.

However, let's not let that detract from the excellent point I made in post # 156.

That was a great post that a lot of chronic complainers need to read.

My goal here is to take some of these negative ions floating around here, and turn them into positive ions.

Post # 156 will do that if we don't lose focus.

sandsjames
11-26-2014, 03:34 PM
Okay, someone always has it worse.

However, let's not let that detract from the excellent point I made in post # 156.

That was a great post that a lot of chronic complainers need to read.

My goal here is to take some of these negative ions floating around here, and turn them into positive ions.

Post # 156 will do that if we don't lose focus.

I've really only seen one negative, moaning, bitching poster in here over the last couple months. I won't name any names...

Absinthe Anecdote
11-26-2014, 05:01 PM
I've really only seen one negative, moaning, bitching poster in here over the last couple months. I won't name any names...

Yeah, they are a sad bunch of complainers.

Perhaps my editorial will set them straight.

Here is a rough draft.



Why did we keep this airman?

I am reminded of someone I knew who retired as an E-6 and blamed everyone but himself.

I wasn't in his chain of command, but I watched his career from afar. He complained his whole career, always looked shitty in uniform, struggled with PT tests and maintaining his body weight.

He was an average worker in the base "fix-it" shop, but claimed he was a wizard on the job. He also criticized every decision from AF leadership, and talked like he knew a lot about leadership.

He only supervised a few small work details. Toward the end of his career he was a NCOIC of a small shop, but this guy talked like he knew more about leadership than Generals.

Despite his claims, I watched his scores on the promotion tests each year. Shitty SKT and PFE scores year after year. He never would buckle down and study, or go to the gym and rectify his lack luster PT scores.

He got his CCAF degree, but complained about doing that.

I continued watching him from a far, as he neared retirement he talked about how happy he'd be upon getting out. About how fed up he was with the Air Force, and it's uncaring leaders.

Much to my surprise, he accepted a low paying GS-7 job in virtually the same shop he was in when he retired.

From afar, I heard him complain about hypocrites, I so very badly wanted to hand this former airman a mirror.

I would have thought he would have the courage to try something different with the rest of his life.

But alas, he seemed a litter happier as a GS-7 since he no longer had to do PT or put on a uniform.

sandsjames
11-26-2014, 06:13 PM
Yeah, they are a sad bunch of complainers.

Perhaps my editorial will set them straight.

Here is a rough draft.



Why did we keep this airman?

I am reminded of someone I knew who retired as an E-6 and blamed everyone but himself.

I wasn't in his chain of command, but I watched his career from afar. He complained his whole career, always looked shitty in uniform, struggled with PT tests and maintaining his body weight.

He was an average worker in the base "fix-it" shop, but claimed he was a wizard on the job. He also criticized every decision from AF leadership, and talked like he knew a lot about leadership.

He only supervised a few small work details. Toward the end of his career he was a NCOIC of a small shop, but this guy talked like he knew more about leadership than Generals.

Despite his claims, I watched his scores on the promotion tests each year. Shitty SKT and PFE scores year after year. He never would buckle down and study, or go to the gym and rectify his lack luster PT scores.

He got his CCAF degree, but complained about doing that.

I continued watching him from a far, as he neared retirement he talked about how happy he'd be upon getting out. About how fed up he was with the Air Force, and it's uncaring leaders.

Much to my surprise, he accepted a low paying GS-7 job in virtually the same shop he was in when he retired.

From afar, I heard him complain about hypocrites, I so very badly wanted to hand this former airman a mirror.

I would have thought he would have the courage to try something different with the rest of his life.

But alas, he seemed a litter happier as a GS-7 since he no longer had to do PT or put on a uniform.

Actually, it's GS-9. And not that low paying at all, especially with retirement and VA benefits. So the little effort I put in has paid of pretty well. And I never bitched about retiring a TSgt. I never wanted to be a MSgt because I knew my limitations...and it's a different shop. I was in this shop several years back, but there were a couple other bases in between.

There was no scoring low on the PFE/SKT. Two years I couldn't test because I'm a fatty PT failure. The last year I turned it down.

If you are going to keep the schtick, at least get the details right, otherwise it's just not funny.

Absinthe Anecdote
11-26-2014, 06:50 PM
Actually, it's GS-9. And not that low paying at all, especially with retirement and VA benefits. So the little effort I put in has paid of pretty well. And I never bitched about retiring a TSgt. I never wanted to be a MSgt because I knew my limitations...and it's a different shop. I was in this shop several years back, but there were a couple other bases in between.

There was no scoring low on the PFE/SKT. Two years I couldn't test because I'm a fatty PT failure. The last year I turned it down.

If you are going to keep the schtick, at least get the details right, otherwise it's just not funny.

Who said it was about you?

This was another TSgt that I observed from afar.

sandsjames
11-26-2014, 07:06 PM
Who said it was about you?

This was another TSgt that I observed from afar.Of course it was. I'd believe that if you weren't so infatuated with me.

Stalwart
11-26-2014, 07:07 PM
Of course it was. I'd believe that if you weren't so infatuated with me.

4,100 posts? And considering the post "nuking" that the update did ... Holy shit.

sandsjames
11-26-2014, 07:08 PM
4,100 posts? Holy shit.

I remember back when Bruwin and Shrike both hit 10k.

Stalwart
11-26-2014, 07:11 PM
I remember back when Bruwin and Shrike both hit 10k.

Whoa.

just whoa.

Capt Alfredo
11-27-2014, 12:29 AM
I can't imagine you'd say that to the face of one of our combat wounded. You should delete that post. Plus, you spelled tortured the way garkhal spells it.

Back to Colonel Grannan's editorial. I could write an editorial too, if I did, it would sound something like this:

I am reminded of someone I knew who retired as an E-6 and blamed everyone but himself.

I wasn't in his chain of command, but I watched his career from afar. He complained his whole career, always looked shitty in uniform, struggled with PT tests and maintaining his body weight.

He was an average worker in the base "fix-it" shop, but claimed he was a wizard on the job. He also criticized every decision from AF leadership, and talked like he knew a lot about leadership. Despite supervising only a few small work details. Toward the end of his career he was a NCOIC of a small shop, but this guy talked like he knew more about leadership than Generals.

Despite his claims, I watched his scores on the promotion tests each year. Shitty SKT and PFE scores year after year. He never would buckle down and study, or go to the gym and rectify his lack luster PT scores.

He got his CCAF degree, but complained about doing that.

I continued watching him from a far, as he neared retirement he talked about how happy he'd be upon getting out. About how fed up he was with the Air Force, and it's uncaring leaders.

Much to my surprise, he accepted a low paying GS-7 job in virtually the same shop he was in when he retired.

From afar, I heard him complain about hypocrites, I so very badly wanted to hand this former airman a mirror.

I would have thought he would have the courage to try something different with the rest of his life.

But alas, he seemed a litter happier as a GS-7 since he no longer had to do PT or put on a uniform.

Why did we keep this airman?

That would be a pretty funny "commentary" to read if someone were to post it on an Air Force site.

USN - Retired
11-27-2014, 12:40 AM
I can't imagine you'd say that to the face of one of our combat wounded. You should delete that post. Plus, you spelled tortured the way garkhal spells it.

Back to Colonel Grannan's editorial. I could write an editorial too, if I did, it would sound something like this:

I am reminded of someone I knew who retired as an E-6 and blamed everyone but himself.

I wasn't in his chain of command, but I watched his career from afar. He complained his whole career, always looked shitty in uniform, struggled with PT tests and maintaining his body weight.

He was an average worker in the base "fix-it" shop, but claimed he was a wizard on the job. He also criticized every decision from AF leadership, and talked like he knew a lot about leadership. Despite supervising only a few small work details. Toward the end of his career he was a NCOIC of a small shop, but this guy talked like he knew more about leadership than Generals.

Despite his claims, I watched his scores on the promotion tests each year. Shitty SKT and PFE scores year after year. He never would buckle down and study, or go to the gym and rectify his lack luster PT scores.

He got his CCAF degree, but complained about doing that.

I continued watching him from a far, as he neared retirement he talked about how happy he'd be upon getting out. About how fed up he was with the Air Force, and it's uncaring leaders.

Much to my surprise, he accepted a low paying GS-7 job in virtually the same shop he was in when he retired.

From afar, I heard him complain about hypocrites, I so very badly wanted to hand this former airman a mirror.

I would have thought he would have the courage to try something different with the rest of his life.

But alas, he seemed a litter happier as a GS-7 since he no longer had to do PT or put on a uniform.

Why did we keep this airman?

Because he likes babies, and he was always willing to help take care of the junior airmen's babies.

That's my guess...

BRUWIN
12-02-2014, 12:05 PM
This story does not stand alone. A few years before I retired I remember trying to get a good troop an AF Comm medal before they PCS'd, A SSgt. Low and behold they shot it back for a PT hiccup 4 years prior. I pleaded the case but the General still said no. Yet at the same time a Capt I knew that had a DUI 5 years prior got picked up for Maj BTZ.

OtisRNeedleman
12-02-2014, 03:02 PM
This story does not stand alone. A few years before I retired I remember trying to get a good troop an AF Comm medal before they PCS'd, A SSgt. Low and behold they shot it back for a PT hiccup 4 years prior. I pleaded the case but the General still said no. Yet at the same time a Capt I knew that had a DUI 5 years prior got picked up for Maj BTZ.

Welcome back. Where ya been?

LogDog
12-02-2014, 05:30 PM
This story does not stand alone. A few years before I retired I remember trying to get a good troop an AF Comm medal before they PCS'd, A SSgt. Low and behold they shot it back for a PT hiccup 4 years prior. I pleaded the case but the General still said no. Yet at the same time a Capt I knew that had a DUI 5 years prior got picked up for Maj BTZ.
I'd normally say I wouldn't believe this story but I can't based on experience. I was stationed in England, having PCS'd from Germany, in the mid-80s and our OIC, was a LT. The Lt., former TSgt, was also an assistant base football coach and the team went to Hahn AB, Germany, my former base, to play a game. Long story short, when the Lt. returned on Monday morning his door was closed and he was making tons of frantic phone calls. Turns out he missed the practices, was shacked-up with one of the local "ladies" (not his wife), and was picked up by the Hahn SPs for DUI. He received an Article 15 and a six month delay in pinning on Captain. He PSC'd shortly after that and a couple of years later I learned he retired as a Major. We had airmen at the same base at the same time as this officer who had DUIs and got kicked out of the AF for the DUI.

An Article 15 for an officer is supposed to be a career killer but that didn't happen. Aas we all know there are rules for enlisted and rules for officers.

Stalwart
12-03-2014, 11:37 AM
An Article 15 for an officer is supposed to be a career killer but that didn't happen. Aas we all know there are rules for enlisted and rules for officers.

Is it? NJP is supposed to be a non-judicial administrative measure "short of the stigma of a court martial."

Granted, NJP is morphing to almost a career ending step for many people; but it is not supposed to be an automatic career ender for anyone.

Two commands ago, every enlisted Sailor in the command that got a DUI was NJP'd separated under the CO's authority. We had one officer get a DUI, he got NJP'd but not separated. The CO had to initiate separation but the adjudication was left up to 'big Navy' who did separate, but many months later because of the bureaucracy.

Rusty Jones
12-03-2014, 11:50 AM
Is it? NJP is supposed to be a non-judicial administrative measure "short of the stigma of a court martial."

Granted, NJP is morphing to almost a career ending step for many people; but it is not supposed to be an automatic career ender for anyone.

Two commands ago, every enlisted Sailor in the command that got a DUI was NJP'd separated under the CO's authority. We had one officer get a DUI, he got NJP'd but not separated. The CO had to initiate separation but the adjudication was left up to 'big Navy' who did separate, but many months later because of the bureaucracy.

My younger sister - who I recently started talking to, after four years - was an Army Captain. She recently told me why she got out - she got the boot for popping positive for marijuana.

You know something else? She get a General Under Honorable - not an OTH. She also tells me that the reason for discharge on her DD 214 doesn't even say why she got discharged. It just says "NA."

Things that make you go "hmm..."

BENDER56
12-03-2014, 12:05 PM
Is it? NJP is supposed to be a non-judicial administrative measure "short of the stigma of a court martial."

Granted, NJP is morphing to almost a career ending step for many people; but it is not supposed to be an automatic career ender for anyone.

Two commands ago, every enlisted Sailor in the command that got a DUI was NJP'd separated under the CO's authority. We had one officer get a DUI, he got NJP'd but not separated. The CO had to initiate separation but the adjudication was left up to 'big Navy' who did separate, but many months later because of the bureaucracy.

Separation is not an option for punishment under NJP. Separation is a separate action and always initiated separately.

BENDER56
12-03-2014, 12:11 PM
My younger sister - who I recently started talking to, after four years - was an Army Captain. She recently told me why she got out - she got the boot for popping positive for marijuana.

You know something else? She get a General Under Honorable - not an OTH. She also tells me that the reason for discharge on her DD 214 doesn't even say why she got discharged. It just says "NA."

Things that make you go "hmm..."

I assisted with a boat-ton of administrative separations that were initiated for misconduct and I don't recall any of them being under-other-than-honorable-conditions. In fact, most of them were straight-up honorable. The scenario you describe sounds consistent with a General -- Under Honorable Conditions characterization. The bar is set pretty low.

Mata Leao
12-03-2014, 12:28 PM
I assisted with a boat-ton of administrative separations that were initiated for misconduct and I don't recall any of them being under-other-than-honorable-conditions. In fact, most of them were straight-up honorable. The scenario you describe sounds consistent with a General -- Under Honorable Conditions characterization. The bar is set pretty low.

I'm far from an expert on the subject and my experience is limited. It seems like if a commander goes for anthing that doesn't have "honorable" in the title, it's more of a pain for them. Personally I think they should go for it rather than taking the easier route.

Stalwart
12-03-2014, 12:41 PM
Separation is not an option for punishment under NJP. Separation is a separate action and always initiated separately.

Correct, but (at least in the Navy) for certain things the CO has the authority to approve the separation.

Stalwart
12-03-2014, 12:43 PM
My younger sister - who I recently started talking to, after four years - was an Army Captain. She recently told me why she got out - she got the boot for popping positive for marijuana.

You know something else? She get a General Under Honorable - not an OTH. She also tells me that the reason for discharge on her DD 214 doesn't even say why she got discharged. It just says "NA."

Things that make you go "hmm..."

If the majority of her service was honorable and that was the one blip on her radar ... sounds about right actually.

BENDER56
12-03-2014, 12:45 PM
I'm far from an expert on the subject and my experience is limited. It seems like if a commander goes for anthing that doesn't have "honorable" in the title, it's more of a pain for them.

Could be.


Personally I think they should go for it rather than taking the easier route.

Yeah, but there's also this; miscreants are a cancer in the unit. They cause disruption and lower the morale of the good troops who follow the rules even though sometimes they'd rather not. I can speak from personal experience that commanders just want these bad troops gone as fast as possible. Is that the right way to go? I don't know.

Stalwart
12-03-2014, 12:55 PM
I can speak from personal experience that commanders just want these bad troops gone as fast as possible. Is that the right way to go? I don't know.

True, if you can have the individual gone in a couple weeks with a G-OTH or go the G, or other routes that may take months of admin action ... and all you want is the miscreant out of the unit to stop poisoning the waters around them ... what do you do.

Rusty Jones
12-03-2014, 01:03 PM
If the majority of her service was honorable and that was the one blip on her radar ... sounds about right actually.

It's supposed to warrant an automatic OTH.

Having been a PS (former PN), I've seen numerous cases where enlisted Sailors popped positive and were given OTH's, and they were EP Sailors. EP Sailors, and then on their separation EVAL, all of a sudden they were dirtbags who needed to be micromanaged to complete simple tasks, etc.

Rusty Jones
12-03-2014, 01:07 PM
True, if you can have the individual gone in a couple weeks with a G-OTH or go the G, or other routes that may take months of admin action ... and all you want is the miscreant out of the unit to stop poisoning the waters around them ... what do you do.

Also, the CO is required to yank whatever clearance they may have; so now you've got someone who is useless and taking up a billet that won't get filled with a new body until he's gone. Even if his job doesn't require a clearance, good luck getting any work out of someone who knows he's getting kicked out and can't do anything to stop it.

BENDER56
12-03-2014, 01:07 PM
True, if you can have the individual gone in a couple weeks with a G-OTH or go the G, or other routes that may take months of admin action ... and all you want is the miscreant out of the unit to stop poisoning the waters around them ... what do you do.

Sometimes it's out of the commander's hands. Misconduct that's serious enough to warrant trying to downgrade the discharge characterization often winds up also being worthy of convening a court martial.

Then you babysit the troop to minimize his impact on everyone else -- often for many months. It's a pain.

Stalwart
12-03-2014, 01:28 PM
Also, the CO is required to yank whatever clearance they may have; so now you've got someone who is useless and taking up a billet that won't get filled with a new body until he's gone. Even if his job doesn't require a clearance, good luck getting any work out of someone who knows he's getting kicked out and can't do anything to stop it.

Depends, a CO can remove a collateral clearance (Secret and below), but not a TS or an SCI one. A CO can remove access and request that the service CAF readjudicate the clearnance based on the new information.

Stalwart
12-03-2014, 01:31 PM
It's supposed to warrant an automatic OTH.

Having been a PS (former PN), I've seen numerous cases where enlisted Sailors popped positive and were given OTH's, and they were EP Sailors. EP Sailors, and then on their separation EVAL, all of a sudden they were dirtbags who needed to be micromanaged to complete simple tasks, etc.

Classification of discharge covers the entire term of enlistment. Pop once for drugs, OTH ... pop for drugs and assault an MP and get a DUI etc ... you would likely not warrant the OTH.

Promotion category on an Eval or FITREP is for that reporting period (no more than a year). So it would be entirely logical that someone who was an EP in the last cycle pops positive for drugs or has some sort of disciplinary action enough to separate them and they are now SP or Progressing for that period.

TJMAC77SP
12-03-2014, 01:46 PM
It's a minor issue but the terms clearance and access are separate. An appropriate official (CO) can pull an individual's access but not their clearance. They can recommend the clearance be revoked (or denied) but clearances are pulled by the Central Adjudication Facility. Each service component used to have one but they are now consolidated (the DoD CAF).

Mata Leao
12-03-2014, 02:03 PM
Could be.



Yeah, but there's also this; miscreants are a cancer in the unit. They cause disruption and lower the morale of the good troops who follow the rules even though sometimes they'd rather not. I can speak from personal experience that commanders just want these bad troops gone as fast as possible. Is that the right way to go? I don't know.

You're right, and I should correct my original reply.
The few that I worked with the commander on were relatively minor in the grand scheme of things. Better to just assist the cancer with his/her wish to get out as quickly as possible. Even those cases were a pain in the arse.

Rusty Jones
12-03-2014, 02:47 PM
I remembered the times that I had to deal with this: just about everyone who should have gotten an OTH was given a General; the only exception being in certain situations where the CO didn't have that option (i.e., testing positive for drug use).

Only O-7 and above can give OTH discharges, so the CO would always have to send it up to the Carrier Strike Group commander; where it would sit for up to four months before finally coming back. That's four months that we couldn't get replacements for them.

So... in case where the CO can simply give a General discharge, they normally just go that route since they really can't afford not to. The sooner we got them off, the sooner we got their replacement.

Measure Man
12-03-2014, 02:58 PM
You're right, and I should correct my original reply.
The few that I worked with the commander on were relatively minor in the grand scheme of things. Better to just assist the cancer with his/her wish to get out as quickly as possible. Even those cases were a pain in the arse.

"Maybe, and I'm just spit balling here, maybe, we have a responsibility as officers to train Santiago. Maybe we as officers have a responsibility to this country to see to it that the men and women charged with its security are trained professionals. Yes, I'm certain I remember reading that somewhere once. And now I'm thinking,Col. Markinson, that your suggestion of transferring Santiago, while expeditious and certainly painless, might not be, in a matter of speaking, the American way." ~ Col. Nathan Jessup