PDA

View Full Version : New AF promotion system



sandsjames
10-31-2014, 06:52 PM
http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/547520/enlisted-promotion-system-changes-continue-with-weighted-factor-adjustments.aspx

Very interesting changes. Am I reading it right that if you have an EPR in a period where you are NOT eligible for promotion that the EPR won't be used for anything? So is the first year after a promotion the time to screw up and get away with it?

AFKILO7
11-01-2014, 11:19 AM
I was thinking the same thing, another question I have; will everyone will who is promotion eligible this year only have 1 EPR considered for promotion? After all we will only have 1 EPR that falls in line with the SCOD.

sandsjames
11-01-2014, 11:49 AM
I was thinking the same thing, another question I have; will everyone will who is promotion eligible this year only have 1 EPR considered for promotion? After all we will only have 1 EPR that falls in line with the SCOD.

That's the way it sounds. I'm also curious as to why the AF is obsessed with having minimum scores for something, then not having scoring those minimums total a high enough score.

technomage1
11-01-2014, 03:54 PM
So, so glad I'm going to retire in 2 years. The system is broken and this will not fix it. They're not even pretending to care now.

LogDog
11-01-2014, 04:31 PM
It sounds to me that once you're promoted the EPRs from your previous ranks are no longer used. After your first year in your new rank you get an EPR that is counted toward promotion so it doesn't pay to screw up in your first year.

Ripcord
11-01-2014, 06:42 PM
You won't get promotion recommendations in years that you are not eligible...similar to not being TIG eligible for SNCOs now. That is why the first EPR after you are eligible will be the only one counted that year. Same goes for EPRs with FA failures or referral EPRs. They will also not be promotion eligible or get a promo recommendation that year. There is no "slacking off" in a non-promo eligible year though. Those people will get weeded out when it comes time for E7-E9 boards that will be looking at 10 years of EPRs. The standards still have check boxes even if the promotion recommendation is not on the form that year. Performance evaluation will not be directly connected (decoupled) to promotion recommendation anymore.

Also, when is comes time for SNCOs WAPS scoring the EPR points (associated with a promotion recommendation) won't even count for the final WAPS score. The board score then becomes even more important. All the more reason to ensure one doesn't hit the breaks when it comes to performance evaluation during a non-promo eligible year. For SNCOs performance evaluation will be more important than promotion recommendation.

Steve-OK
11-02-2014, 03:39 PM
That's the way it sounds. I'm also curious as to why the AF is obsessed with having minimum scores for something, then not having scoring those minimums total a high enough score.

How's it going to work if the number of people the AF needs to promote that year don't meet the minimum scores?

sandsjames
11-02-2014, 05:35 PM
How's it going to work if the number of people the AF needs to promote that year don't meet the minimum scores?

Good question.

MikeKerriii
11-02-2014, 09:47 PM
How's it going to work if the number of people the AF needs to promote that year don't meet the minimum scores?

That seems very unlikely, Since the ineligibles would not be counted against percentages

A vacant slot is better than an unqualified fill

Modus
11-07-2014, 01:36 PM
When does the Rack and Stack part start? Is that next year?

ffdan
11-11-2014, 03:28 PM
Minimum scores will probably be so people that get the new word picture "5" will have a significant advantage point-wise compared to someone that received the "4" or "3" word picture. This way the people with the highest rating still must earn the stripe practically being handed to them. The more information that is slowly getting released really points to a new concept and adjustment to what we are currently used to. Yes, I know that is obvious to many people by now but sometimes you have to do a little Barney styling.

Zxc
11-26-2014, 05:42 PM
My biggest questions remain unanswered, specifically how stratification and limits will work

As a TSgt in a small AFSC but large squadron...
- Will I be in the same "pool" as all TSgts in my unit? My section? My AFSC? My AFSC within my unit/base? My base/wing?

There's so many ways it could be split up, and depending on how they do it could dramatically alter the number or "5s" and "4s" they have to give out. My assumption is that I will be rated against all those of the same rank within my unit.


My overall impression of the new rating system / promotion scoring system / NCO Academy system (by selection/nomination) is that political divides and alliances will travel further down the enlisted ranks than ever before. To an extent your supervision always held your career in their hands, but if you "checked the boxes" their power was somewhat limited. Now it seems that only the best of political allies will be given the go-ahead to advance.

Sure, I can agree that if you're making enemies you're probably doing something wrong. I've never had a supervisor I didn't get along with splendidly, and I like to think that I had something to do with that... but at the same time I see the people who pour their heart and soul into getting promoted at any cost, and in the end its they who make rank for better or worse.

Ripcord
11-26-2014, 09:41 PM
My biggest questions remain unanswered, specifically how stratification and limits will work

As a TSgt in a small AFSC but large squadron...
- Will I be in the same "pool" as all TSgts in my unit? My section? My AFSC? My AFSC within my unit/base? My base/wing?

There's so many ways it could be split up, and depending on how they do it could dramatically alter the number or "5s" and "4s" they have to give out. My assumption is that I will be rated against all those of the same rank within my unit.


My overall impression of the new rating system / promotion scoring system / NCO Academy system (by selection/nomination) is that political divides and alliances will travel further down the enlisted ranks than ever before. To an extent your supervision always held your career in their hands, but if you "checked the boxes" their power was somewhat limited. Now it seems that only the best of political allies will be given the go-ahead to advance.

Sure, I can agree that if you're making enemies you're probably doing something wrong. I've never had a supervisor I didn't get along with splendidly, and I like to think that I had something to do with that... but at the same time I see the people who pour their heart and soul into getting promoted at any cost, and in the end its they who make rank for better or worse.

Educated guess is the pool will be based on where the EPR closes out. TSgt and below = Sq CC SNCOs = depends on closeout level (strat/SRE). Looking forward to the AFI updates in a few months that will outline all of this. unofficial word on the street is that the forced distribution numbers they are looking at are pretty generous even by today's standard of 85% 5's. They should be at 20% Promote Now (5), 40% Must Promote (4) and everybody else (save discipline or referral issues) falling in the Promote (3) area. Also, guess who gets picked up for DSD assignments? That's right promote now and must promotes.

Also, regarding politics affecting promo recommendations. Even the politicians among us will still need to play the game and check the boxes to be considered. One of the best things I see coming and confirmed by CMSAF is that in order to even be considered for top rating one must excel at there primary duties just to get a ticket to the game. Only after that will bake sales and college classes and qrtrly/annual awards help to push you up and over. The days of the volunteer of the year or the PHD student getting a top rating without being awesome in their primary duties are over.

Have a little faith in leadership it will get sorted out. I've found more often then not that people who complain about the perceived "brown nosers", "butt-snorklers" and Chief's pet getting promoted often lack perspective. More importantly they need to take a hard look in the mirror to figure out why they didn't get promoted and what was in there control that could have been done or done better... Here's a hint. If your at least a TSgt or above the CC, Chief and Supe should know your name. Moreover they should also know something more about you other than your place on the recall roster. This is not always leadership's responsibility to find out...though it should be. That's not brown nosing or politicing, that's just how the game is played.

Capt Alfredo
11-27-2014, 12:25 AM
My biggest questions remain unanswered, specifically how stratification and limits will work

As a TSgt in a small AFSC but large squadron...
- Will I be in the same "pool" as all TSgts in my unit? My section? My AFSC? My AFSC within my unit/base? My base/wing?

There's so many ways it could be split up, and depending on how they do it could dramatically alter the number or "5s" and "4s" they have to give out. My assumption is that I will be rated against all those of the same rank within my unit.


My overall impression of the new rating system / promotion scoring system / NCO Academy system (by selection/nomination) is that political divides and alliances will travel further down the enlisted ranks than ever before. To an extent your supervision always held your career in their hands, but if you "checked the boxes" their power was somewhat limited. Now it seems that only the best of political allies will be given the go-ahead to advance.

Sure, I can agree that if you're making enemies you're probably doing something wrong. I've never had a supervisor I didn't get along with splendidly, and I like to think that I had something to do with that... but at the same time I see the people who pour their heart and soul into getting promoted at any cost, and in the end its they who make rank for better or worse.

Welcome to officer promotion world. There are no explicit guidelines for strats. That means one senior rater can game the system if he's got a liberal (in the dictionary sense) outlook, while another SR might be more strict. Lies, damn lies, and stratifications.

fufu
11-27-2014, 02:19 AM
[QUOTE]Also, regarding politics affecting promo recommendations. Even the politicians among us will still need to play the game and check the boxes to be considered. One of the best things I see coming and confirmed by CMSAF is that in order to even be considered for top rating one must excel at there primary duties just to get a ticket to the game. Only after that will bake sales and college classes and qrtrly/annual awards help to push you up and over. The days of the volunteer of the year or the PHD student getting a top rating without being awesome in their primary duties are over.

I doubt it. Why would it change? This guy will still get the most favorable ratings b/c his work bullets will be the accomplishments of everyone else. How many people solely accomplish anything?


Have a little faith in leadership it will get sorted out. I've found more often then not that people who complain about the perceived "brown nosers", "butt-snorklers" and Chief's pet getting promoted often lack perspective. More importantly they need to take a hard look in the mirror to figure out why they didn't get promoted and what was in there control that could have been done or done better... Here's a hint. If your at least a TSgt or above the CC, Chief and Supe should know your name. Moreover they should also know something more about you other than your place on the recall roster. This is not always leadership's responsibility to find out...though it should be. That's not brown nosing or politicing, that's just how the game is played.

Faith in leadership? Thats funny.

The new systems SCREAMS of the good ole boy club. It will only make the GOB worse than it already is. Dont' attend the Sq Xmas party? Sq Picnic? Be the 5/6 Pres? Go to every Sq function? Not getting promoted.

Niirs
11-30-2014, 10:15 PM
[QUOTE=Ripcord;349553]
I doubt it. Why would it change? This guy will still get the most favorable ratings b/c his work bullets will be the accomplishments of everyone else. How many people solely accomplish anything?

Agree, winning awards is going to be even more important - you're going to see Annual and Quarterly award winners getting 5s. There is no way to measure how a number of Airmen perform against each other, epically when you have multiple AFSCs doing different jobs all competing for the same evaluation rating. For SNCOs the same thing, awards, plus their duty title. Also someone's first eligible epr after getting promoted, don't even think about getting a 5 or 4 unless you walk on water and win awards. You're the new guy to this rank, how can you be the best at this rank.

Overall I think it's a huge improvement over the old system because we can actually tell Airmen they are mediocre - that they are NOT awesome. It so sad to tell everyone they are the best-of-the-best all the time when clearly their 5 isn't the same as the rock star's 5. Plus CCs can use 5s to put the best Airmen in the best position to get promoted.

Ripcord
12-01-2014, 02:43 AM
Also someone's first eligible epr after getting promoted, don't even think about getting a 5 or 4 unless you walk on water and win awards. You're the new guy to this rank, how can you be the best at this rank.


Well theoretically depending on the rank you could have upwards of 24 months before you are eligible for a promotion recommendation. Since the first EPR after a promotion won't even qualify for a promotion recommendation. People will only be in the running for promotion recommendations when they are eligible for promotion that year. Provided the AF made the right choice and promoted said person based on their potential to serve and excel in the next higher rank I see no reason why a super star at the lower rank can't continue their streak and be a superstar in the next rank. Provided they continue to perform at a high level. It's about demonstrated performance not tenure... It also will depend on your competition pool's size/quality. All you have to do is be better than the majority percentile in the same rank. In many units that's not hard to do. ...Low hanging fruit.

Zxc
12-01-2014, 02:52 PM
[QUOTE=fufu;349561]
Agree, winning awards is going to be even more important - you're going to see Annual and Quarterly award winners getting 5s. There is no way to measure how a number of Airmen perform against each other, epically when you have multiple AFSCs doing different jobs all competing for the same evaluation rating. For SNCOs the same thing, awards, plus their duty title. Also someone's first eligible epr after getting promoted, don't even think about getting a 5 or 4 unless you walk on water and win awards. You're the new guy to this rank, how can you be the best at this rank.

Overall I think it's a huge improvement over the old system because we can actually tell Airmen they are mediocre - that they are NOT awesome. It so sad to tell everyone they are the best-of-the-best all the time when clearly their 5 isn't the same as the rock star's 5. Plus CCs can use 5s to put the best Airmen in the best position to get promoted.


Hmm that brings up another question. I understand with quotas on the APR system that no only were they inconsistent between units but also between ranks. It turned into 20% of Airmen getting 5s, 50% of NCOs, and 80% of SNCOs (fudged numbers but you get the point), and that slowly slid toward "everyone" getting 5s.

I understand the idea of the system, but I wonder what--if anything--is in place to prevent the same from happening? The implementation has changed but the hopes and goals of the system are the same as the last couple.

giggawatt
12-01-2014, 03:02 PM
I like the idea of the system in that you can tell people where they're falling short, theoretically. You can tell your troop that they are not a 5 or a 4 because XYZ. I'm just wondering how the new system will affect decorations and special duty considerations.

BRUWIN
12-02-2014, 11:59 AM
From what I have read on how this system will work be prepared to do some serious ass kissing if you want to make rank. You thought it was bad before? LOL...you ain't seen nothing yet.

Rusty Jones
12-02-2014, 12:09 PM
http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/547520/enlisted-promotion-system-changes-continue-with-weighted-factor-adjustments.aspx

Very interesting changes. Am I reading it right that if you have an EPR in a period where you are NOT eligible for promotion that the EPR won't be used for anything? So is the first year after a promotion the time to screw up and get away with it?

This is actually a GOOD thing. I would've hoped that the Air Forced would've learned from the Navy to not use forced distribution AT ALL; but this is one area where they improved on it. Think about it for a second... a young guy who JUST put on TSgt is now competing against ALL TSgts in his unit - including the seasoned ones who've already proven themselves in their paygrade. It's a no-brainer that he's going to get a 3, just based on that. That's how it's working in the Navy RIGHT NOW. And that P (or, 3 in the Air Force) still counts against them. Be thankful that the Air Force fixed that.

fufu
12-03-2014, 03:55 AM
From what I have read on how this system will work be prepared to do some serious ass kissing if you want to make rank. You thought it was bad before? LOL...you ain't seen nothing yet.

Thank YOU!

Absinthe Anecdote
12-03-2014, 04:51 AM
Thank YOU!

What's wrong with kissing a little ass every now and then?

Besides, if you get the Bake Sale Diva game rolling the right way, you become a Golden Boy.

Once you become a Golden Boy, you don't kiss ass anymore. Leadership actually kisses your ass and pampers you.

BENDER56
12-03-2014, 12:59 PM
[QUOTE=Niirs;349642]


Hmm that brings up another question. I understand with quotas on the APR system that no only were they inconsistent between units but also between ranks. It turned into 20% of Airmen getting 5s, 50% of NCOs, and 80% of SNCOs (fudged numbers but you get the point), and that slowly slid toward "everyone" getting 5s.

If there were any quotas in the old APR system, it was, "Everybody gets a nine! YOU get a nine! YOU get a nine! Nines for EVERYBODY!"

I think you're referring to the short-lived "expectations" (which were NOT quotas -- nope, that is RIGHT OUT) that surfaced soon after the then-new EPR system was implemented in the late '80s.

Filterbing
12-09-2014, 06:08 PM
Anyone got anything on the reasoning for this?


Additional SNCO Promotion Adjustments
The Air Force is also adjusting the WAPS scoring model for chief and senior master sergeant promotions beginning with the 15E9 chief master sergeant and 16E8 senior master sergeant promotion cycles. Starting with these cycles, weighted EPR points will no longer be included in the final WAPS score calculations for promotion eligible master sergeants and senior master sergeants.

Airmen competing for promotion to senior master sergeant and chief master sergeant will have their points calculated using the following factors: United States Air Force supervisory examination, time in grade, time in service, decorations and a board score. Additionally, to be promotion eligible master sergeants and senior master sergeants must have completed a Community College of the Air Force degree, in any discipline, and must have completed the Senior NCO Academy via correspondence or in-residence, on or before the PECD.

Details on the composition of the SNCO enlisted performance reports are scheduled for release in spring 2015.

Measure Man
12-09-2014, 06:17 PM
Anyone got anything on the reasoning for this?


Additional SNCO Promotion Adjustments
The Air Force is also adjusting the WAPS scoring model for chief and senior master sergeant promotions beginning with the 15E9 chief master sergeant and 16E8 senior master sergeant promotion cycles. Starting with these cycles, weighted EPR points will no longer be included in the final WAPS score calculations for promotion eligible master sergeants and senior master sergeants.

Airmen competing for promotion to senior master sergeant and chief master sergeant will have their points calculated using the following factors: United States Air Force supervisory examination, time in grade, time in service, decorations and a board score. Additionally, to be promotion eligible master sergeants and senior master sergeants must have completed a Community College of the Air Force degree, in any discipline, and must have completed the Senior NCO Academy via correspondence or in-residence, on or before the PECD.

Details on the composition of the SNCO enlisted performance reports are scheduled for release in spring 2015.

Which part?

Eliminating the score calculation? Who knows...maybe just to simplify. That'll probably be a wash anyway...if you're not getting 5s on your EPRs, your board score is going in the toilet anyway. For everyone getting 5s, the board score just cancels each other out.

Making those who do not have CCAF or SNCOA ineligible...I read somehwere that 40% of MSgts fall into this category, so the idea for elminating them is to cut down the time of the boards. They already were not getting SRI, so were essentially nonpromotable. This will just cut down time for the board in reading over records that are not competitive anyway.

Filterbing
12-10-2014, 12:41 PM
I should have clarified my question...

dropping the points for EPRs during the "everyone gets a 5" days makes sense. I have been a proponent for that change for a while since it has been a wash for so long.

What doesn't make sense is that we are changing to a system that will allow only the top 10% to get a 5, the next 30% get a 4, and the rest get a 3 (or whatever these percentages will be). If we are taking so much effort to pinpoint who deserves what rating, then why drop the point system that goes with it? So far there has been no indication that SNCO's won't be following that same 5,4,and 3 quotas so there will be SNCOs hit with the 3 and 4 ratings. This might be a way to lower the impact of the drop in promo points these lower ratings will have. I just wanted to know if anyone had the reasoning from the horse's mouth.

Measure Man
12-10-2014, 02:40 PM
I should have clarified my question...

dropping the points for EPRs during the "everyone gets a 5" days makes sense. I have been a proponent for that change for a while since it has been a wash for so long.

What doesn't make sense is that we are changing to a system that will allow only the top 10% to get a 5, the next 30% get a 4, and the rest get a 3 (or whatever these percentages will be). If we are taking so much effort to pinpoint who deserves what rating, then why drop the point system that goes with it? So far there has been no indication that SNCO's won't be following that same 5,4,and 3 quotas so there will be SNCOs hit with the 3 and 4 ratings.

Good point.


This might be a way to lower the impact of the drop in promo points these lower ratings will have. I just wanted to know if anyone had the reasoning from the horse's mouth.

Not me. Sorry, I'll butt out now :-)

SomeRandomGuy
12-10-2014, 03:56 PM
I should have clarified my question...

dropping the points for EPRs during the "everyone gets a 5" days makes sense. I have been a proponent for that change for a while since it has been a wash for so long.

What doesn't make sense is that we are changing to a system that will allow only the top 10% to get a 5, the next 30% get a 4, and the rest get a 3 (or whatever these percentages will be). If we are taking so much effort to pinpoint who deserves what rating, then why drop the point system that goes with it? So far there has been no indication that SNCO's won't be following that same 5,4,and 3 quotas so there will be SNCOs hit with the 3 and 4 ratings. This might be a way to lower the impact of the drop in promo points these lower ratings will have. I just wanted to know if anyone had the reasoning from the horse's mouth.

You make a good point here. I would even take it a step further. If SNCOs are held to the same quotas as other ranks the board scores are going to be almost worthless too. The raters and commanders have already racked and stacked everyone for the board.

In a way, even having a board sounds pointless. How can the board rate someone with 5s higher than someone with 4s? At that point isn't the board just looking at all the people with 5s, saying "Yep, these are promotable" Then starting on the 4s?

I suppose this was always the complaint and the reason why everyone was getting 5s in the past. Heck, the AF even admitted as much during the last round of force shaping where if you were a CMSgt with a 4 or lower EPR you were gone.

Ripcord
12-11-2014, 12:49 AM
I should have clarified my question...

dropping the points for EPRs during the "everyone gets a 5" days makes sense. I have been a proponent for that change for a while since it has been a wash for so long.

What doesn't make sense is that we are changing to a system that will allow only the top 10% to get a 5, the next 30% get a 4, and the rest get a 3 (or whatever these percentages will be). If we are taking so much effort to pinpoint who deserves what rating, then why drop the point system that goes with it? So far there has been no indication that SNCO's won't be following that same 5,4,and 3 quotas so there will be SNCOs hit with the 3 and 4 ratings. This might be a way to lower the impact of the drop in promo points these lower ratings will have. I just wanted to know if anyone had the reasoning from the horse's mouth.

THIS. AFSPC Command Chief visited us a few weeks ago and this statement about sums up his message to us. The promotion recommendation points will be far more important for TSgt and below. SNCOs the points don't matter. The only thing that matters is how the board scores 10 years of EPRs. The idea is that it shifts promotion weights more towards performance. In the case of SNCOs that means sustained superior performance over time. since the pool of people competing for top promo ratings is so much smaller at the E8 and E9 level there will be oustanding people that get 3s and 4s just out of sheer math. by eliminating the points associated with SNCO EPRs it makes the "picture" created by documented performance (not so much promotion recommendation) that much more important. This also further decouples performance evaluation from promotion recommendation.

Niirs
12-11-2014, 01:24 AM
In a way, even having a board sounds pointless. How can the board rate someone with 5s higher than someone with 4s? At that point isn't the board just looking at all the people with 5s, saying "Yep, these are promotable" Then starting on the 4s?

That is also a good point, you almost could create a formula to calculate a SNCO board score based on your last 10 years of evaluations alone. 5,5,5,5,5,5,x,x,x = 450, 5,5,5,4,3,3,x,x,x=435, 4,4,4,4,4,x,x,x=405 5,4,4,3,3,3,,3,3,3=380 and on and on.

Although if you don't have a 5/4 on top, your probably not going to get promoted that year. Think about the percentages, the top 10% of MSgts get SRE/STRATS and the top 20% of SMSgts get SRE/STRATS - the promotion rates last year were 6.7% for E8 and 19.7% for E9 - both fall under that allowed %s for SRE/STRATs and its very tough to make up those 20-30 points through decoration points and/or test points.

Ripcord
12-11-2014, 02:12 AM
Two things.


That is also a good point, you almost could create a formula to calculate a SNCO board score based on your last 10 years of evaluations alone. 5,5,5,5,5,5,x,x,x = 450, 5,5,5,4,3,3,x,x,x=435, 4,4,4,4,4,x,x,x=405 5,4,4,3,3,3,,3,3,3=380 and on and on.

1. Boards don't and won't score based solely on promotion recommendation. Promo recommendations are just one factor (albeit an important one) in an overall assessment of one's records. With the new system a person having all 5s forever is highly unlikely if not close to impossible. Not realistic. Varied or lower ratings will become the norm over time. People will get promoted with 4s and 3s in their records. Even at the E8/E9 level.


Although if you don't have a 5/4 on top, your probably not going to get promoted that year. Think about the percentages, the top 10% of MSgts get SRE/STRATS and the top 20% of SMSgts get SRE/STRATS - the promotion rates last year were 6.7% for E8 and 19.7% for E9 - both fall under that allowed %s for SRE/STRATs and its very tough to make up those 20-30 points through decoration points and/or test points.

2. This is a fair assumption on the surface using simple math however remember, Strats and very soon promotion recommendations are given out across GRADE not AFSC. So depending on the AFSC's needs for promotion that cycle you will see many people get promoted without 5s, SRE or STRATS. The eligible pool vs promotion numbers will allow it to be that way. In larger AFSCs in particular you will find they need more people promoted then they will have with all those things in their records. So like I said it will be less about promotion recommendation (still a differentiating factor certainly) and more about documented performance over time.

That is not to say that people in all grades with higher promotion recommendations won't have a distinct advantage over those that don't it just means that hope is not at all lost for those without all the shinny acronyms attached to their records every year.

At least that is the way I see it playing out.

Niirs
12-11-2014, 02:51 AM
2. This is a fair assumption on the surface using simple math however remember, Strats and very soon promotion recommendations are given out across GRADE not AFSC. So depending on the AFSC's needs for promotion that cycle you will see many people get promoted without 5s, SRE or STRATS. The eligible pool vs promotion numbers will allow it to be that way. In larger AFSCs in particular you will find they need more people promoted then they will have with all those things in their records. So like I said it will be less about promotion recommendation (still a differentiating factor certainly) and more about documented performance over time.

Great point, I overlooked that factor. I think the true measure will be the right people getting promoted and sharp people with 3s still able to get promoted. This thread has stirred some great discussion

DannyJ
12-11-2014, 01:37 PM
Great point, I overlooked that factor. I think the true measure will be the right people getting promoted and sharp people with 3s still able to get promoted. This thread has stirred some great discussion

I have some sincere concerns over this fact. Squadrons with multiple AFSCs are naturally going to be giving Strats to folks that have the highest mission impact. REMF folk are going to get the butt end of this deal and end up suffering.

sandsjames
12-11-2014, 02:38 PM
I have some sincere concerns over this fact. Squadrons with multiple AFSCs are naturally going to be giving Strats to folks that have the highest mission impact. REMF folk are going to get the butt end of this deal and end up suffering.

Yep...should be pretty simple to figure out, too. Just look at your squadron now and think about which AFSCs generally "win" the most quarterly awards, etc.

Rusty Jones
12-11-2014, 03:01 PM
Yep...should be pretty simple to figure out, too. Just look at your squadron now and think about which AFSCs generally "win" the most quarterly awards, etc.

Expect most units to spread their quotas over the various shops. For example, the number of TSgts in your unit means that there are 20 authorized 5's to give out, 30 authorized 4's, and the other 50 are stuck with 3's; and there are five shops in your unit.

In this scenario, expect most commanders to give each shop four 5's and six 4's.

sandsjames
12-11-2014, 03:41 PM
Expect most units to spread their quotas over the various shops. For example, the number of TSgts in your unit means that there are 20 authorized 5's to give out, 30 authorized 4's, and the other 50 are stuck with 3's; and there are five shops in your unit.

In this scenario, expect most commanders to give each shop four 5's and six 4's.

That is very wishful thinking but the AF doesn't usually work that way. In CE, for instance, the Fire Department has the majority of people and have a very high visibility job. The plumbers, however, aren't generally in the spotlight. So for them to get rated favorable to the Fire Department, they are going to have to get called out to the Base Commander's house to unclog a toilet 2 days before the EPR date.

Rusty Jones
12-11-2014, 04:05 PM
That is very wishful thinking but the AF doesn't usually work that way. In CE, for instance, the Fire Department has the majority of people and have a very high visibility job. The plumbers, however, aren't generally in the spotlight. So for them to get rated favorable to the Fire Department, they are going to have to get called out to the Base Commander's house to unclog a toilet 2 days before the EPR date.

You're basing that on who gets the most rewards. I understand that. That's the way it works in the Navy. Not all commanders do what I mentioned in the previous posts. Most do, though. They do it, because they're conscious of what you're saying being true if they don't establish a policy that ensures that people in certain fields aren't favored. The commanders in Navy who do allocate MP and EP quotas among departments and division will still favor certain fields when it comes to who gets awards.

Forced distribution is still new to the Air Force, so it will take a few years for the kinks to work out... but the reason I see this happening is because, even if they don't look at what's happening in the Navy, you're going to have lower ranking officers pushing for this when they're looking out for their guys. One of two things will happen - either they will successfully convince the commander to adopt quotas within the organization, or they will establish quotas when they themselves become commanders.

SomeRandomGuy
12-11-2014, 04:06 PM
Expect most units to spread their quotas over the various shops. For example, the number of TSgts in your unit means that there are 20 authorized 5's to give out, 30 authorized 4's, and the other 50 are stuck with 3's; and there are five shops in your unit.

In this scenario, expect most commanders to give each shop four 5's and six 4's.

I think what Danny is talking about is the very small AFSCs in a unit. For example, at my base there is a large intel unit with maybe 1000 military. They have 1 enlisted finance billet. I think they also have like 3 enlisted Personell billets.

I'm not sure the exact breakout of military but let's run with some hypothetical numbers here. Let's assume that the 3 Personnel and 1 Finance billet are all SSgt. Let's also assume the whole organization has 200 SSgts. In theory the AF could authorize 50 5's, 50 4's, and 100 3's.

What are the chances the commander authorizes any of those 5s to be given to the lowly Personnel or Finance guys? What is he going to have to do to win it. Let's compare

Intel guy: Provided support to Seal Team 6 helping kill Bin Laden
Finance guy: Managed the unit budget

Yep, intel guy gets the 5. He may have barely done anything to earn his bullet but this is an intel unit and the commander is familiar with that mission. He has no idea what is involved in managing the budget so naturally he is going to take care of his intel guys.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-11-2014, 04:10 PM
That is very wishful thinking but the AF doesn't usually work that way. In CE, for instance, the Fire Department has the majority of people and have a very high visibility job. The plumbers, however, aren't generally in the spotlight. So for them to get rated favorable to the Fire Department, they are going to have to get called out to the Base Commander's house to unclog a toilet 2 days before the EPR date.

That's exactly how it should be. Besides, most plumbers would turn the opportunity into a disaster by doing something dumb like being creepy to the Commander's wife or leering at his teenage daughter.

Rusty Jones
12-11-2014, 04:13 PM
I think what Danny is talking about is the very small AFSCs in a unit. For example, at my base there is a large intel unit with maybe 1000 military. They have 1 enlisted finance billet. I think they also have like 3 enlisted Personell billets.

I'm not sure the exact breakout of military but let's run with some hypothetical numbers here. Let's assume that the 3 Personnel and 1 Finance billet are all SSgt. Let's also assume the whole organization has 200 SSgts. In theory the AF could authorize 50 5's, 50 4's, and 100 3's.

What are the chances the commander authorizes any of those 5s to be given to the lowly Personnel or Finance guys? What is he going to have to do to win it. Let's compare

Intel guy: Provided support to Seal Team 6 helping kill Bin Laden
Finance guy: Managed the unit budget

Yep, intel guy gets the 5. He may have barely done anything to earn his bullet but this is an intel unit and the commander is familiar with that mission. He has no idea what is involved in managing the budget so naturally he is going to take care of his intel guys.

In this scenario, the commander might group certain fields together. Your finance guy might be grouped in with logistics, and your intel guy might be combined with the guys who he works the closest with.

At the two different commands where I was, where there was one Intelligence Specialist; they were grouped in with the Electronic Warfare Specialists. And it was always an EW who got it every time.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-11-2014, 04:16 PM
I think what Danny is talking about is the very small AFSCs in a unit. For example, at my base there is a large intel unit with maybe 1000 military. They have 1 enlisted finance billet. I think they also have like 3 enlisted Personell billets.

I'm not sure the exact breakout of military but let's run with some hypothetical numbers here. Let's assume that the 3 Personnel and 1 Finance billet are all SSgt. Let's also assume the whole organization has 200 SSgts. In theory the AF could authorize 50 5's, 50 4's, and 100 3's.

What are the chances the commander authorizes any of those 5s to be given to the lowly Personnel or Finance guys? What is he going to have to do to win it. Let's compare

Intel guy: Provided support to Seal Team 6 helping kill Bin Laden
Finance guy: Managed the unit budget

Yep, intel guy gets the 5. He may have barely done anything to earn his bullet but this is an intel unit and the commander is familiar with that mission. He has no idea what is involved in managing the budget so naturally he is going to take care of his intel guys.

You are forgetting about FaceTime and being the pet of some Chief. The finance and personnel guys have a better shot at that. Especially in an Intel unit.

Most of the Intel troops who would get a bullet like that work shifts, and usually at a building or location that squadron leadership rarely goes to. Especially at a place like Meade or San Antonio, any of the RSOCs really.

SomeRandomGuy
12-11-2014, 04:23 PM
You are forgetting about FaceTime and being the pet of some Chief. The finance and personnel guys have a better shot at that. Especially in an Intel unit.

Most of the Intel troops who would get a bullet like that work shifts, and usually at a building or location that squadron leadership rarely goes to. Especially at a place like Meade or San Antonio, any of the RSOCs really.

FaceTime? That's what an iPhone is for. These troops have a recall roster right? The commander's number is on there. Your complaint is invalid. Any troop has the opportunity to FaceTime with the commander if they wish.

Rusty Jones
12-11-2014, 04:33 PM
I was a Personnel Specialist. We, the Yeomen, the Command Career Counselor, and the Corpsmen were in the same department. There were four PO1's in my department, and were allowed 1 EP out of the 10 total onboard. We all got face time, but only one of us was getting the EP. The rest of the 9 were allocated to the other departments.

If you have a good commander, one who is fully aware of the concerns that SJ is talking about, he'll set up a policy like that. And, like I said, this is highly likely anway; because SNCOs and lower ranking officers are inevitably going to fight for this on behalf of their troops.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-11-2014, 04:36 PM
FaceTime? That's what an iPhone is for. These troops have a recall roster right? The commander's number is on there. Your complaint is invalid. Any troop has the opportunity to FaceTime with the commander if they wish.

Complaint?

Where do you get that I am complaining?

You are the one who is complaining, I'm saying those finance and personnel troops have advantages if they are savvy.

Take a good look at my signature block. I wasn't one of the unknown airmen on the midnight shift.

I'd get off a mid shift and go over to the squadron with my tasty cupcakes or breakfast burritos.

I'd make the fatties fatter, plus make fat stacks for the Top 3.

You are complaining for some hypothetical finance troop who doesn't know how to work it. Some of them finance troops have respectable game, remember that SSgt who got a Bronze Star?

Rusty Jones
12-11-2014, 04:42 PM
I'd get off a mid shift and go over to the squadron with my tasty cupcakes or breakfast burritos.

I'd make the fatties fatter, plus make fat stacks for the Top 3.

You are complaining for some hypothetical finance troop who doesn't know how to work it. Some of them finance troops have respectable game, remember that SSgt who got a Bronze Star?

AA here may be joking, ladies and gentlemen, but he's probably a bit more serious than he realizes. With selection boards for MSgt being put into place, expect TSgt to be the most cut-throat rank in the Air Force where it's going to be one big back-stabbing fest - complete with fellow TSgts even going as far as sabotaging each other's work.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-11-2014, 04:48 PM
AA here may be joking, ladies and gentlemen, but he's probably a bit more serious than he realizes. With selection boards for MSgt being put into place, expect TSgt to be the most cut-throat rank in the Air Force where it's going to be one big back-stabbing fest - complete with fellow TSgts even going as far as sabotaging each other's work.

I'm being humorous, but that doesn't mean there isn't any truth to it.

You have to embrace that kind of thing, or you'll fall short sooner or later.

As far as E-6s being backstabbers, I think it has always been that way.

I remember a Major telling me once that when an officer wants to find out what is going on in a unit, they go talk to the TSgts.

They throw the SNCOs under the bus with just as much gusto as they do their own.

sandsjames
12-11-2014, 04:53 PM
That's exactly how it should be. Besides, most plumbers would turn the opportunity into a disaster by doing something dumb like being creepy to the Commander's wife or leering at his teenage daughter.

Now that you put it that way, I see your point. Leering at his teenage daughter is reward enough.

Measure Man
12-11-2014, 05:11 PM
I think the direct mission impact heroes should get promoted faster than the REMFs.

It always seemed crazy to me that the guy overlooking contractors at an Air Force Base in Wyoming is on the same pay scale as a guy kicking down doors in Afghanistan looking for Prince Ali Ababwa. If this forced distribution means it is unfair that REMFs get promoted slower than the war heroes, even if he is the best REMF in the AF...I'm okay with it.

Filterbing
12-11-2014, 05:25 PM
I think the direct mission impact heroes should get promoted faster than the REMFs.

It always seemed crazy to me that the guy overlooking contractors at an Air Force Base in Wyoming is on the same pay scale as a guy kicking down doors in Afghanistan looking for Prince Ali Ababwa. If this forced distribution means it is unfair that REMFs get promoted slower than the war heroes, even if he is the best REMF in the AF...I'm okay with it.


That's not what would happen in this scenario though. Finance dude might be kickass, but gets a 3 or 4 while assigned to so PJ squadron. Back at your local finance office however, Joe bag o' donuts is collecting the quota allotted 5 while being half the airman that Mr. Kickass is.

Rusty Jones
12-11-2014, 05:32 PM
That's not what would happen in this scenario though. Finance dude might be kickass, but gets a 3 or 4 while assigned to so PJ squadron. Back at your local finance office however, Joe bag o' donuts is collecting the quota allotted 5 while being half the airman that Mr. Kickass is.

And that's why Mr. Joe Bag O' Donut's career will end at TSgt becasuse, although his 5's may get him up to E6 through an objective point system, the selection board will catch that once he's up for MSgt.

Filterbing
12-11-2014, 05:34 PM
And that's why Mr. Joe Bag O' Donut's career will end at TSgt becasuse, although his 5's may get him up to E6 through an objective point system, the selection board will catch that once he's up for MSgt.

That's true, it won't stop airman kickass for getting less than deserved due to circumstances though.

SomeRandomGuy
12-11-2014, 05:46 PM
That's not what would happen in this scenario though. Finance dude might be kickass, but gets a 3 or 4 while assigned to so PJ squadron. Back at your local finance office however, Joe bag o' donuts is collecting the quota allotted 5 while being half the airman that Mr. Kickass is.


I actually knew a Chief who spent 3 years in the special duty position as the finance person for the PJs at Pope. She said it was the most rewarding assignment of her career. Oddly, under this new system it likely becomes the assignment that hurts her chances of making Chief the most.

Rusty Jones
12-11-2014, 05:54 PM
I actually knew a Chief who spent 3 years in the special duty position as the finance person for the PJs at Pope. She said it was the most rewarding assignment of her career. Oddly, under this new system it likely becomes the assignment that hurts her chances of making Chief the most.

You need to look at it this way - for example, MTI's are supposedly selected from the top ten percent of the Air Force. Which means that, in theory, they're going to be the kind of NCO would be getting the 5's and the occasional 4's under the new system.

Guess what? Among all the MTI's at Lackland, as good as they are, half of them HAVE to get a 3 EPR under the new system. The selection boards, when reviewing their records, are going to know and understand that. As an MTI over at Lackland, a 4 (maybe even a 3) will likely hold more weight than a 5 sitting at a desk stateside.

You really don't have much to worry about in that area.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-11-2014, 06:14 PM
You need to look at it this way - for example, MTI's are supposedly selected from the top ten percent of the Air Force. Which means that, in theory, they're going to be the kind of NCO would be getting the 5's and the occasional 4's under the new system.

Guess what? Among all the MTI's at Lackland, as good as they are, half of them HAVE to get a 3 EPR under the new system. The selection boards, when reviewing their records, are going to know and understand that. As an MTI over at Lackland, a 4 (maybe even a 3) will likely hold more weight than a 5 sitting at a desk stateside.

You really don't have much to worry about in that area.

True, but you are underestimating the idiot factor. Who says those sitting the boards are going to have their shit together, especially in the first few years of the new system.

Then there is always god's plan to contend with. If he doesn't want you making rank, you are screwed.

You can pray and pray and pray, but if it isn't part of his plan, it just won't matter.

TJMAC77SP
12-11-2014, 06:15 PM
You need to look at it this way - for example, MTI's are supposedly selected from the top ten percent of the Air Force. Which means that, in theory, they're going to be the kind of NCO would be getting the 5's and the occasional 4's under the new system.

Guess what? Among all the MTI's at Lackland, as good as they are, half of them HAVE to get a 3 EPR under the new system. The selection boards, when reviewing their records, are going to know and understand that. As an MTI over at Lackland, a 4 (maybe even a 3) will likely hold more weight than a 5 sitting at a desk stateside.

You really don't have much to worry about in that area.

"top ten percent of the Air Force" Serious question.....is that a written policy? Nothing against MTI's but that doesn't seem right to me. Anymore than the Navy Chief who once told the pilot of Air Force One is the best pilot in the Air Force. Every AF guy in the office at the time couldn't help but chuckle out loud. Again, not a slam on the AF1 pilots, they are without a doubt very good but............................

Absinthe Anecdote
12-11-2014, 06:19 PM
"top ten percent of the Air Force" Serious question.....is that a written policy? Nothing against MTI's but that doesn't seem right to me. Anymore than the Navy Chief who once told the pilot of Air Force One is the best pilot in the Air Force. Every AF guy in the office at the time couldn't help but chuckle out loud. Again, not a slam on the AF1 pilots, they are without a doubt very good but............................

A heavy pilot and a fighter pilot are two different things, not surprised everybody laughed.

I'd imagine that very few, if any, Air Force One pilots come from outside AMC.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-11-2014, 06:43 PM
I think the direct mission impact heroes should get promoted faster than the REMFs.

It always seemed crazy to me that the guy overlooking contractors at an Air Force Base in Wyoming is on the same pay scale as a guy kicking down doors in Afghanistan looking for Prince Ali Ababwa. If this forced distribution means it is unfair that REMFs get promoted slower than the war heroes, even if he is the best REMF in the AF...I'm okay with it.

I'm laughing my ass off at all of us Air Force guys using the term REMF. I can't wait for Stalwart or one of the other Marines to come in here and read this.

Besides, since REMFs vastly outnumber true combat troops or grunts in every service, I think the REMFs will get their fair share of stripes.

Even those dashing Security Forces guys in the Air Force are pretty darn REMFy. Our Combat Controllers and PJs are so few that it isn't worth worrying about.

SomeRandomGuy
12-11-2014, 06:59 PM
You need to look at it this way - for example, MTI's are supposedly selected from the top ten percent of the Air Force. Which means that, in theory, they're going to be the kind of NCO would be getting the 5's and the occasional 4's under the new system.

Guess what? Among all the MTI's at Lackland, as good as they are, half of them HAVE to get a 3 EPR under the new system. The selection boards, when reviewing their records, are going to know and understand that. As an MTI over at Lackland, a 4 (maybe even a 3) will likely hold more weight than a 5 sitting at a desk stateside.

You really don't have much to worry about in that area.

The problem isn't so much that one EPR it's the recurring effect. The Chief I'm talking about took a position that is still in the finance career field. It is a 3 year controlled tour. In this new system unless she walked on water she just isn't getting 5s. She probably gets 3 separate 4s. That's "above average". The problem, is that someone at a large base gets 3 5s in that same time period. Let's say they were both SSgts this whole time. With the bump on EPRs the other guy tests and makes TSgt a year earlier than her. They both PCS to their next assignment. Because of TIG the other guy becomes shop NCOIC. When it comes time to rack and stack he gets the 5 because of his position. You wouldn't give the 5 to someone who is the same rank as the boss but isn't actually the boss right? My point was taking a 3 year assignment and getting lower EPRs could really murder a career. I'm not saying it would stop someone who would have made Chief from making it though. They probably get there anyways. It just takes a few years longer.

Rusty Jones
12-11-2014, 07:04 PM
I'm laughing my ass off at all of us Air Force guys using the term REMF. I can't wait for Stalwart or one of the other Marines to come in here and read this.

Besides, since REMFs vastly outnumber true combat troops or grunts in every service, I think the REMFs will get their fair share of stripes.

Even those dashing Security Forces guys in the Air Force are pretty darn REMFy. Our Combat Controllers and PJs are so few that it isn't worth worrying about.

While I was in the Navy, I used to call Seabees REMFs just to piss them off. Many of these fools think they're SpecOps, when someone in their Army equivalent (Corps of Engineers) is just another Solider - an REMF Soldier, at that. I even lurked a Seabee message board, where some of these fools were talking about how they should have different dress uniforms so as to not look like Sailors.

The biggest fattest dude I've ever seen in the Navy was a Seabee - he was a CE2, at the recruiting command that I was at. In fact, it was because of him that our command implemented command PT. He failed the PT test, then complained to someone higher up that we didn't have time to PT. We all got fucked because of him!

Seabees are a fucking riot!

TJMAC77SP
12-11-2014, 07:13 PM
A heavy pilot and a fighter pilot are two different things, not surprised everybody laughed.

I'd imagine that very few, if any, Air Force One pilots come from outside AMC.

That was the general consensus. In fairness though all of our AF officers were fighter jocks with big watches.

TJMAC77SP
12-11-2014, 07:15 PM
I'm laughing my ass off at all of us Air Force guys using the term REMF. I can't wait for @Stalwart (http://forums.militarytimes.com/member.php?u=13040) or one of the other Marines to come in here and read this.

Besides, since REMFs vastly outnumber true combat troops or grunts in every service, I think the REMFs will get their fair share of stripes.

Even those dashing Security Forces guys in the Air Force are pretty darn REMFy. Our Combat Controllers and PJs are so few that it isn't worth worrying about.

I generally agree. Even with the increased SF activity 'outside the wire' in the past ten years and the recent award of Bronze Stars (with V) to two cops the overall number are pretty REMFy.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-11-2014, 07:28 PM
I generally agree. Even with the increased SF activity 'outside the wire' in the past ten years and the recent award of Bronze Stars (with V) to two cops the overall number are pretty REMFy.

In my 36 months as a cop before I cross trained, the closest to being "in the shit" I came was aggravating my fellow SRT members to the point they wanted to shoot me.

That and coming close to dying of boredom while walking a boundary sentry post.

Measure Man
12-11-2014, 07:30 PM
That's not what would happen in this scenario though. Finance dude might be kickass, but gets a 3 or 4 while assigned to so PJ squadron. Back at your local finance office however, Joe bag o' donuts is collecting the quota allotted 5 while being half the airman that Mr. Kickass is.

Different people in different units with different raters can never be all treated exactly the same...unless you have the CSAF writing everyone's EPR personally and with personal knowledge.

Anyway...i wouldn't assume that the PJ finance guy is always going to get screwed. Commanders are pretty smart people, generally, and can tell when they have a really kick-ass finance guy.

Secondly...board members are pretty smart too for whenever the guy gets to the board.

I think this is a lot of hand wringing over nothing. Have your feedback with your supervisor, meet or exceed all the expectations and you will be fine...most people do not.

Stalwart
12-12-2014, 11:08 AM
Besides, since REMFs vastly outnumber true combat troops or grunts in every service, I think the REMFs will get their fair share of stripes.

When I was in the Marines, it was about 7 support folks to every infantryman; I am not sure what the Army ratio is.

As far as being a REMF, I am one now. My wife likes it better for sure.

Rusty Jones
12-12-2014, 11:38 AM
When I was in the Marines, it was about 7 support folks to every infantryman; I am not sure what the Army ratio is.

As far as being a REMF, I am one now. My wife likes it better for sure.

The US has been fortunate enough to not have fought a hostile entity with a navy since World War II. Of course, that could change depending on what happens with Russia or China.

The blue water Navy has been playing REMF roles since Korea, but our ships ARE designed to go into combat. I couldn't bring myself to call Sailor involved in naval combat with Germany or Japan during World War II an "REMF." And, all blue water Sailors today are still trained to be ready to do the same thing.

I'm a Port Dawg in the Air Force Reserve now, so whether or not blue water Sailors are technically REMF doesn't really matter to me anymore - because I'm DEFINITELY one now.

SomeRandomGuy
12-12-2014, 01:32 PM
What the hell is an REMF? I always thought we were called "nonners"

TJMAC77SP
12-12-2014, 01:45 PM
What the hell is an REMF? I always thought we were called "nonners"

As I understand it, 'nonner' is the term used by the OIF/OEF generation. Those whose service started in that period. REMF has been around a long time. I never heard 'nonner' during my career.

Rusty Jones
12-12-2014, 01:45 PM
What the hell is an REMF? I always thought we were called "nonners"

Nope. I'm on the flight line, and I'm REMF - "Rear Echelon Mother Fucker." Basically, anyone who is not combart arms - SpecOps, infantry, artillery, cavalry, etc.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-12-2014, 01:55 PM
Nope. I'm on the flight line, and I'm REMF - "Rear Echelon Mother Fucker." Basically, anyone who is not combart arms - SpecOps, infantry, artillery, cavalry, etc.

Didn't they offer you a public affairs job? What made you pick aerial port over PA?

I think you probably would have liked PA, plus it looks better on a resume.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-12-2014, 02:00 PM
As I understand it, 'nonner' is the term used by the OIF/OEF generation. Those whose service started in that period. REMF has been around a long time. I never heard 'nonner' during my career.

I thought it was an aircraft maintenance saying for people who don't don't work on the flight line, or those not directly involved in generating sorties.

TJMAC77SP
12-12-2014, 02:03 PM
I thought it was an aircraft maintenance saying for people who don't don't work on the flight line, or those not directly involved in generating sorties.

I think it universally applied now. I guess it could have been present in the maintenance world prior to 2003 but I never heard it even when talking with 'wrenches'.

Rusty Jones
12-12-2014, 02:04 PM
Didn't they offer you a public affairs job? What made you pick aerial port over PA?

I think you probably would have liked PA, plus it looks better on a resume.

I had enough responsibility in my rating in the Navy, and currently have enough responsibility in my civilian job as it is. All I wanna do is shuffle cargo. And be in a unit where there are dozens of other TSgts in my AFSC.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-12-2014, 02:11 PM
I had enough responsibility in my rating in the Navy, and currently have enough responsibility in my civilian job as it is. All I wanna do is shuffle cargo. And be in a unit where there are dozens of other TSgts in my AFSC.

Hope you have fun with it, either way, I think you made a pretty good call going into the reserves. A little something extra to live off of when you are an old guy. No sense in letting your active duty years go to waste.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-12-2014, 03:18 PM
When I was in the Marines, it was about 7 support folks to every infantryman; I am not sure what the Army ratio is.

As far as being a REMF, I am one now. My wife likes it better for sure.

It has to be way higher with all the logistics the Army has, 10:1 at the least.

UncaRastus
12-12-2014, 03:49 PM
While the USMC does utilize 7 people to support every infantryman, you have to realize that the same 7 people support another infantryman. And another. And on and on.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-12-2014, 04:03 PM
While the USMC does utilize 7 people to support every infantryman, you have to realize that the same 7 people support another infantryman. And another. And on and on.

In mathematics, a ratio is a relationship between two numbers of the same kind[1] (e.g., objects, persons, students, spoonfuls, units of whatever identical dimension), expressed as "a to b" or a:b, sometimes expressed arithmetically as a dimensionless quotient of the two[2] that explicitly indicates how many times the first number contains the second (not necessarily an integer).[3]
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratio

TJMAC77SP
12-12-2014, 05:05 PM
In mathematics, a ratio is a relationship between two numbers of the same kind[1] (e.g., objects, persons, students, spoonfuls, units of whatever identical dimension), expressed as "a to b" or a:b, sometimes expressed arithmetically as a dimensionless quotient of the two[2] that explicitly indicates how many times the first number contains the second (not necessarily an integer).[3]
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratio

.............huh?

Absinthe Anecdote
12-12-2014, 06:41 PM
.............huh?

Seemed appropriate since Unca Rastaman wanted to explain to us that a 7 to 1 ratio didn't mean that each grunt has seven dudes following them around all day.

TJMAC77SP
12-12-2014, 06:44 PM
Seemed appropriate since Unca Rastaman wanted to explain to us that a 7 to 1 ratio didn't mean that each grunt has seven dudes following them around all day.

I know it is just that my simple cop mind tends to get foggy when 'rithmetic stuff is discussed.

In all seriousness, it's actually a good thing my degree only required 3 semester hours of math.

Measure Man
12-12-2014, 06:49 PM
I thought it was an aircraft maintenance saying for people who don't don't work on the flight line, or those not directly involved in generating sorties.

REMF is an Army term for anyone not on the front lines fighting the enemy.

I've heard "nonner" from maintenance only within the past handful of years. But, yeah, it means anyone not on the flightline. But, people on the flightline are still REMFs.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-12-2014, 06:57 PM
REMF is an Army term for anyone not on the front lines fighting the enemy.

I've heard "nonner" from maintenance only within the past handful of years. But, yeah, it means anyone not on the flightline. But, people on the flightline are still REMFs.

Exactly, they aren't interchangeable terms as Unca TJ was suggesting.

Rusty Jones
12-12-2014, 07:16 PM
REMF is an Army term for anyone not on the front lines fighting the enemy.

I've heard "nonner" from maintenance only within the past handful of years. But, yeah, it means anyone not on the flightline. But, people on the flightline are still REMFs.

I dunno, I've never heard the term "nonner" used in my unit, but I'm only a reservist with four drill weekends under my belt. I certainly don't feel that moving cargo around on the flightline makes me badass enough to call someone else names for not doing it.

On the other hand, while I was in the Navy; we did have choice words for people who avoided sea duty - not so much that those of us who did our sea time thought of us as "badasses," but we saw our sea time as an essential part of the experience of being a Sailor that some who called themselves "Sailors" lacked.

I'm wondering if those who work around aircraft on the flightline around aircraft look at it in a similar way.

TJMAC77SP
12-12-2014, 07:17 PM
Exactly, they aren't interchangeable terms as Unca TJ was suggesting.

It was used in the AF in my day.

BTW: "Unca TJ"?

EDIT: I checked various places on line and the only reference to 'nonner' was in the urban dictionary and specifically referred to the flightline reference whereas REMF is more universally applied to those not directly engaging the enemy. Hence I will agree that they aren't completely interchangeable.

Measure Man
12-12-2014, 07:21 PM
I dunno, I've never heard the term "nonner" used in my unit, but I'm only a reservist with four drill weekends under my belt. I certainly don't feel that moving cargo around on the flightline makes me badass enough to call someone else names for not doing it.

On the other hand, while I was in the Navy; we did have choice words for people who avoided sea duty - not so much that those of us who did our sea time thought of us as "badasses," but we saw our sea time as an essential part of the experience of being a Sailor that some who called themselves "Sailors" lacked.

I'm wondering if those who work around aircraft on the flightline around aircraft look at it in a similar way.

"nonner" is not that widespread in use, really. It's just a few that use it...generally the same people that walk around the squadron using aviator terms for administrative work..."Check your six, we need to get this memo VFR direct to the Air Boss...pull chocks, watch out for bogeys and keep your SA!"

You know, everyone tries to make their own job seem like the most important thing...it's more good-natured ribbing than actual feelings of superiority.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-12-2014, 07:28 PM
It was used in the AF in my day. How are they not interchangeable if they both mean essentially the same thing? You aren't perchance correcting a non-difference are you?

BTW: "Unca TJ"?

It is specific to aircraft maintenance, you don't have grunts calling people nonners as you suggested a few posts ago.

You are being slow on the uptake, and out-of-touch.

Don't worry, we all turn into clueless old codgers at some point, Unca TJ.

Modus
12-12-2014, 07:34 PM
Don't let these new age maintainers catch wind of REMF, they'll have something else to whine about. Trust me they actually think that not being a nonner gives them superiority lol. Little do they know we all get the same paycheck.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-12-2014, 07:43 PM
Don't let these new age maintainers catch wind of REMF, they'll have something else to whine about. Trust me they actually think that not being a nonner gives them superiority lol. Little do they know we all get the same paycheck.

Not exactly, as an Intel God, I got a Zone B re-enlistment bonus that those flightline apes never saw the likes of.

TJMAC77SP
12-12-2014, 07:56 PM
It is specific to aircraft maintenance, you don't have grunts calling people nonners as you suggested a few posts ago.

You are being slow on the uptake, and out-of-touch.

Don't worry, we all turn into clueless old codgers at some point, Unca TJ.

Well, thank you son for pointing out the error in my definitive posts.


As I understand it, 'nonner' is the term used by the OIF/OEF generation. Those whose service started in that period. REMF has been around a long time. I never heard 'nonner' during my career.


I think it is universally applied now. I guess it could have been present in the maintenance world prior to 2003 but I never heard it even when talking with'wrenches'.

I already edited my last post concurring with you.

It’s good of you to correct me on this matter. Some might think you are correcting a near nonexistent and unimportant difference but doing that would be petty of you so of course that doesn't apply. I did say that I thought it was universally applied and of course that appears to be wrong.

Stalwart
12-13-2014, 12:08 PM
It is specific to aircraft maintenance, you don't have grunts calling people nonners as you suggested a few posts ago.

I usually heard the term "pogue", which has recently caused a tuffle in the Marines with non-infantry folks getting upset by the term. My personal favorite that I ever heard was "fobbit" for someone who went to a combat area but never left the FOB (Forward Operating Base) and a great Lord of Rings reference.

BT BT

On the point of REMF/Fobbit/Nonner/Pogue vs. Combat Arms guys, I have often heard many non-combat arms personnel who cite that they have gone on convoys along IED routes, taken direct or indirect fire in a FOB and the like. The thing is, someone who goes out and serves with the GRUNTS is very different life than being a GRUNT. Being a GRUNT isn't especially difficult or hard (mentally or physically), it is a hard life though and a life that isn't for everyone. The pride of the infantryman comes not from knowing that he’s doing a job that others can’t, but that he’s doing a job that others simply won’t do.

http://forums.militarytimes.com/showthread.php/7900-Infantrymen

At the same time, saying "I served with the infantry" is kind of like the celebrity who spends a day working in a homeless shelter or 'being' homeless etc. You get an idea of what is like, get some time away from the relative comfortable area or specialty experiencing the uncomfortable life of the GRUNT and then go back to the comfort of whatever your normal job is. Doing a deployment with the infantry for 3, 6, 9 months etc. doesn't make someone an infantryman no more than me having lived on Fairchild AFB as a Marine makes me an airman. I don't look down at all on anyone who isn't an infantryman but it isn't the same thing,

The most important bottom line is that combat is combat and a bullet or bomb will kill the pogue as easily as it will the GRUNT; and I don't desire to see anyone on my side (finance -dog, admin specialist, pilot or infantryman) lose their life.

Rusty Jones
12-13-2014, 12:21 PM
At the same time, saying "I served with the infantry" is kind of like the celebrity who spends a day working in a homeless shelter or 'being' homeless etc. You get an idea of what is like, get some time away from the relative comfortable area or specialty experiencing the uncomfortable life of the GRUNT and then go back to the comfort of whatever your normal job is. Doing a deployment with the infantry for 3, 6, 9 months etc. doesn't make someone an infantryman no more than me having lived on Fairchild AFB as a Marine makes me an airman. I don't look down at all on anyone who isn't an infantryman but it isn't the same thing,

The most important bottom line is that combat is combat and a bullet or bomb will kill the pogue as easily as it will the GRUNT.

Now that you mention the "I served with the infantry" thing, I'm beginning to think that this may not so much about feeling superior, as it is about shaming others and guilt tripping them about whatever MOS/rating/AFSC they chose.

Someone saying "I served with the infantry" has successfully been shamed for not choosing an 03XX / 11X MOS, and lacks enough pride in their MOS to proudly own it.

This doesn't so much happen in the Navy based on rating, but the only people in the Navy that I saw trying to shame others based on their community are submariners. Outside of this, those of us who do our sea time do shame others for not doing theirs - but the difference is that EVERYONE in the Navy has the opportunity to be assigned to a deployable unit, and get SOME kind of warfare device. It actually takes effort to avoid it.

Stalwart
12-13-2014, 12:25 PM
This doesn't so much happen in the Navy based on rating, but the only people in the Navy that I saw trying to shame others based on their community are submariners. Outside of this, those of us who do our sea time do shame others for not doing theirs - but the difference is that EVERYONE in the Navy has the opportunity to be assigned to a deployable unit, and get SOME kind of warfare device. It actually takes effort to avoid it.

I actually see more of it in the Navy that I did in the Marines.

In the Marines, the big 'identity issue' was that you were a MARINE ... first.

In the Navy it seems that people ID more with their rating ... "I am a YN, I am a CT, I am a BM" or "I am a Chief" than in the simplicity of "I am a Sailor."

Rusty Jones
12-13-2014, 12:30 PM
I actually see more of it in the Navy that I did in the Marines.

In the Marines, the big 'identity issue' was that you were a MARINE ... first.

In the Navy it seems that people ID more with their rating ... "I am a YN, I am a CT, I am a BM" or "I am a Chief" than in the simplicity of "I am a Sailor."

Right, but I've never seen anyone who was ashamed of their rating. Or anyone who has said things like, "I worked with the (insert rate here)."

Well, I take that back. Sailors say that they'e served with the BM's and the CS's all the time, but you know as well as I do that they're certainly not bragging when they say that.

Stalwart
12-13-2014, 12:32 PM
Right, but I've never seen anyone who was ashamed of their rating. Or anyone who has said things like, "I worked with the (insert rate here)."

Maybe if they have been assigned to SPECWAR ... that is the only time in the Navy I have seen folks do that.


Well, I take that back. Sailors say that they'e served with the BM's and the CS's all the time, but you know as well as I do that they're certainly not bragging when they say that.

BM's maybe ... maybe ... CS's ... nope, not a chance.

Absinthe Anecdote
12-13-2014, 12:58 PM
This doesn't so much happen in the Navy based on rating, but the only people in the Navy that I saw trying to shame others based on their community are submariners. Outside of this, those of us who do our sea time do shame others for not doing theirs - but the difference is that EVERYONE in the Navy has the opportunity to be assigned to a deployable unit, and get SOME kind of warfare device. It actually takes effort to avoid it.

Surely you don't mean that there isn't rivalry between the different types of surface combatants.

I imagine that even submariners talk trash between boomers and attack boats.

Rusty Jones
12-13-2014, 01:09 PM
Surely you don't mean that there isn't rivalry between the different types of surface combatants.

Not really. With certain exceptions based on NECs, any Sailor in any rating with opportunity to be assigned as ship's company can be assigned to any surface ship. I've only been on destroyers, but that was by choice. Possibly the only "bragging" point is that, for example, certain classes of ships may be less cramped than others, some have more things to do than others, etc - but Sailors normally talk about these things when they bitch about their current ship, and how the one they just came from (or are going to) is better. Or, when they're trying to give advice to a friend who is up for orders.


I imagine that even submariners talk trash between boomers and attack boats.

I couldn't tell you, as I'm not a submariner - but, in my estimation, it wouldn't be much different. MT's are exclusively assigned to boomers, and FT's are exclusively assigned to fast attacks subs; all other submarine ratings can go to either sub. The bragging points I've usually seen between the two are deployment schedules - boomer Sailors are three months out, and three months in while the other team takes it out (I believe the first month in from deployemnt is R&R, from what I recall), and fast attack subs follow a deployment schedule similar to surface ships.

Single submariners tend to claim that neither deployment schedule is really better than the other, however, I'm told that submariners with families prefer boomers.

But as far as "who is better than who?" I've never seen it.

Modus
12-15-2014, 04:08 PM
The whole nonner thing in this day and age with JET/ILO (or whatever they're calling them this year) taskings is actually quite hilarious.