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giggawatt
10-22-2014, 07:23 PM
So the effects of the draw down have become evident now. One of the hardest hit career fields from the TERA/VSP/ERB/QFRB was security forces. Now the wing is requesting bodies from other squadrons for security forces augmentee. Coincidence?

Anyone else seen tangible effects from the force shaping measures?

sandsjames
10-22-2014, 07:51 PM
So the effects of the draw down have become evident now. One of the hardest hit career fields from the TERA/VSP/ERB/QFRB was security forces. Now the wing is requesting bodies from other squadrons for security forces augmentee. Coincidence?

Anyone else seen tangible effects from the force shaping measures?

Are these augmentees directly related? That's been going on for years at many bases. I did auggie duty 3 or 4 times since 2001, well before the TERA/VSP/ERB/QFRB.

Modus
10-22-2014, 08:12 PM
I'd say that's pretty normal, considering the deployment tempo for Cops. They've always had augmentees, along with Civilians manning the gates.

Mata Leao
10-22-2014, 08:15 PM
I was an augmentee in 1993. Cops have always been whining about being undermanned, and who is going to be the comander to not send augmentees because he/she feels security isn't important?

TJMAC77SP
10-22-2014, 09:37 PM
I was an augmentee in 1993. Cops have always been whining about being undermanned, and who is going to be the comander to not send augmentees because he/she feels security isn't important?

The basic requirement for SF augmentees is driven by manning requirements for increased security posture operations. It makes no sense to have a installation Security Force at such manning when many of the posts are not manned during normal operations.

They have also been used to plus up garrison SF units to fill gaps left by deployments of assigned cops overseas.

I don't know about 'whining' but I do know in my 25 plus years the cops were never manned above 86% total.

sandsjames
10-23-2014, 12:38 AM
The basic requirement for SF augmentees is driven by manning requirements for increased security posture operations. It makes no sense to have a installation Security Force at such manning when many of the posts are not manned during normal operations.

They have also been used to plus up garrison SF units to fill gaps left by deployments of assigned cops overseas.

I don't know about 'whining' but I do know in my 25 plus years the cops were never manned above 86% total.

Would have loved to have augmentees when our shops were manned below 75%.

TJMAC77SP
10-23-2014, 02:34 AM
Would have loved to have augmentees when our shops were manned below 75%.

Not sure what you do (or did) but SF augmentees can be posted with a relatively short train-up cycle. A few days and weapons qual in most cases. Can you get a Admin Spec up to par in your AFSC that easily?

sandsjames
10-23-2014, 10:11 AM
Not sure what you do (or did) but SF augmentees can be posted with a relatively short train-up cycle. A few days and weapons qual in most cases. Can you get a Admin Spec up to par in your AFSC that easily?Sometimes all we need is a 2nd person to ride along for safety purposes. I can train a monkey to do that in about 30 minutes so, yeah, I can train a cop in a couple days.

giggawatt
10-23-2014, 10:14 AM
Are these augmentees directly related? That's been going on for years at many bases. I did auggie duty 3 or 4 times since 2001, well before the TERA/VSP/ERB/QFRB.

I did augee duty here right after 9/11 and I know it's somewhat common but they didn't ask for any last year and it was pretty intermittent at my last base. They basically stopped getting augees as years went on.

Mata Leao
10-23-2014, 12:38 PM
The basic requirement for SF augmentees is driven by manning requirements for increased security posture operations. It makes no sense to have a installation Security Force at such manning when many of the posts are not manned during normal operations.

They have also been used to plus up garrison SF units to fill gaps left by deployments of assigned cops overseas.

I don't know about 'whining' but I do know in my 25 plus years the cops were never manned above 86% total.

Literally every career field was and is undermanned. That play isn't really taken seriously anymore but is still used. In my 23 year, my career field always ran at about 75-80% AF wide, except in Korea. In Korea when we needed people the most at work, they were augementeed out. Not doing anything useful, just keeping the augee tradition alive.

Try getting a qualified/experienced avionics guy. Can't augementee that. Dedicated crew chief program, what's that? No sempathy for manning woes, sorry.

SomeRandomGuy
10-23-2014, 01:07 PM
Literally every career field was and is undermanned. That play isn't really taken seriously anymore but is still used. In my 23 year, my career field always ran at about 75-80% AF wide, except in Korea. In Korea when we needed people the most at work, they were augementeed out. Not doing anything useful, just keeping the augee tradition alive.

Try getting a qualified/experienced avionics guy. Can't augementee that. Dedicated crew chief program, what's that? No sempathy for manning woes, sorry.

One time we were forced to provide an augmentee for two weeks. We were really hurting for manning but we were forced to provide the person anyways. When they finished the two weeks and came back I asked what they ended up doing. There was a construction project and SF needed to get cement trucks through the gate quickly. Instead of sending them to the delivery gate they had FOUR, yes FOUR people check the trucks. One person would read the license plate to another standing with a clipboard the other two people walked down the sides with those mirrors looking underneath. It was great that other units gave up people so SF didn't have to send four of their guys out there to do a job that could have been done by two people at the most. I get the feeling SF would have got by with one or two people if they had to use their own.

Another time we had to send augmentees to "guard the armory" at an exercise. There were two twelve hour shifts at the exercise armory in the field. In the monring the weapons were checked out and the people guarding the armory sat in an empty shack guarding nothing. At the end of the day weapons were turned in and the guards spent the night guarding the weapons.

Someone with common sense would think the cops could have spared a person to do weapons check out in the monring and check in during the evening. At the beginning and end of the day they could have simply transported the weapons back to the central base armory. Why would they use common sense though if they can force other units to give up valuable manning just to fill a position doing something none of the cops wanted to do? Must be nice to request extra people just to perform a completely unneccesary task and actually get that requirement filled.

TJMAC77SP
10-23-2014, 01:09 PM
Literally every career field was and is undermanned. That play isn't really taken seriously anymore but is still used. In my 23 year, my career field always ran at about 75-80% AF wide, except in Korea. In Korea when we needed people the most at work, they were augementeed out. Not doing anything useful, just keeping the augee tradition alive.

Try getting a qualified/experienced avionics guy. Can't augementee that. Dedicated crew chief program, what's that? No sempathy for manning woes, sorry.

For what's it's worth the cops don't think much of the augmentee program either.

Mata Leao
10-23-2014, 01:20 PM
For what's it's worth the cops don't think much of the augmentee program either.

I'm sure it's one of those things where it takes more time to train someone than to just do it yourself.

I was never in a position to fight against the augementee requests. I was just told to provide bodies and I got to decide who went.
They bitched in the winter but I never heard complaints in the summer. Some even said it was fun. So I never fought against it when the CC told me to provide bodies. It wouln't have done any good anyway. Chances are he fought as hard as he possibly could without pissing off the Col. Me complaining would only get him pissed at me.

When I got voluntold for augementee duty in 93, I only got trained, I never had to do anything, so I don't have actual first hand experience with it.

Modus
10-23-2014, 01:29 PM
*cues Maintenance Sympathy violin music*

Mcjohn1118
10-23-2014, 02:32 PM
SRG, I just got here when this project was going on. I asked the same exact question...why not use the search pit for concrete and asphalt trucks. The answer was that when concrete and asphalt are being mixed for large projects, they must maintain a certain temperature. It's a very short window and since the actual search pit has one narrow access road, these trucks may have been waiting too long in search row. So the wing decidied to expedite the concrete and asphalt trucks. I'm no engineer, just a retired cop, so what do I know? In regards to using auggies, sometimes they are needed. The program was designed for higher, increased FPCON posting. The concept of Integrated Defense calls for the use of auggies for base security. However, in normal posting, the unit should be able to handle it. Units go through the manpower drills and then based on the integrated defense risk management process, come up with a post priority chart. This is what determines which posts get manned and by how many.

sandsjames
10-23-2014, 03:05 PM
I did augee duty here right after 9/11 and I know it's somewhat common but they didn't ask for any last year and it was pretty intermittent at my last base. They basically stopped getting augees as years went on.

That's good to know. Working with them sucked. It was like being in a completely different service.

SomeRandomGuy
10-23-2014, 03:23 PM
SRG, I just got here when this project was going on. I asked the same exact question...why not use the search pit for concrete and asphalt trucks. The answer was that when concrete and asphalt are being mixed for large projects, they must maintain a certain temperature. It's a very short window and since the actual search pit has one narrow access road, these trucks may have been waiting too long in search row. So the wing decidied to expedite the concrete and asphalt trucks. I'm no engineer, just a retired cop, so what do I know? In regards to using auggies, sometimes they are needed. The program was designed for higher, increased FPCON posting. The concept of Integrated Defense calls for the use of auggies for base security. However, in normal posting, the unit should be able to handle it. Units go through the manpower drills and then based on the integrated defense risk management process, come up with a post priority chart. This is what determines which posts get manned and by how many.

My complaint wasn't in regards to providing augmentees to open a different gate which provided a quicker route. My complaint was the fact that they had four people doing a job that normally one or at most two cops would do. Maybe it was a show of force or some other reason but it looked downright silly.

Why not have one person get the plate number and whatever else while the other person used the mirror to walk all the way around the vehicle? Seems like two people could easily handle this yet SF asked for four people. That was my complaint. I just think if SF didn't recieve the auggies they would have gotten by with two instead of four.

sandsjames
10-23-2014, 04:42 PM
What I found when I was doing it was that, generally, two cop cars would usually meet up (especially on night shift) and sit and chat for 45 minutes to an hour at a time, meaning that it was taking 4 people to do a two person job. Also, the AORs for each car were pretty small meaning that it might have only taken 3 cars instead of 5 to cover the entire base. Also, there were always 4 or 5 NCOs on the desk (as it was apparently below the duties of the E5/E6s to be in a car or on a gate). I can't speak for how every other base did it, but I do know that from 2003-2007, Mildenhall had plenty of cops if the NCOs would have gotten off their high horse and hopped in a patrol car.

TJMAC77SP
10-23-2014, 04:51 PM
What I found when I was doing it was that, generally, two cop cars would usually meet up (especially on night shift) and sit and chat for 45 minutes to an hour at a time, meaning that it was taking 4 people to do a two person job. Also, the AORs for each car were pretty small meaning that it might have only taken 3 cars instead of 5 to cover the entire base. Also, there were always 4 or 5 NCOs on the desk (as it was apparently below the duties of the E5/E6s to be in a car or on a gate). I can't speak for how every other base did it, but I do know that from 2003-2007, Mildenhall had plenty of cops if the NCOs would have gotten off their high horse and hopped in a patrol car.

When I was a young and fairly immature troop I used to scoff at what I believed was the lax work schedules of the 'wrenches'. On fighter bases at least, it seemed they did have to come to work a little early but worked only a couple of hours then the birds flew a sortie of an hour or so, then the 'wrenches' did some work around the birds and were gone. Meanwhile we (the cops) were there. We were there when they came to work, we were there when they left, we were there when they were off at the bars or with their families, or whatever.

At some point I realized that I really didn't know what I was talking about and although there were certainly instances of lax work performance generally there were valid reasons for every detail of how they worked and I just didn't have the full picture.

sandsjames
10-23-2014, 06:56 PM
When I was a young and fairly immature troop I used to scoff at what I believed was the lax work schedules of the 'wrenches'. On fighter bases at least, it seemed they did have to come to work a little early but worked only a couple of hours then the birds flew a sortie of an hour or so, then the 'wrenches' did some work around the birds and were gone. Meanwhile we (the cops) were there. We were there when they came to work, we were there when they left, we were there when they were off at the bars or with their families, or whatever.

At some point I realized that I really didn't know what I was talking about and although there were certainly instances of lax work performance generally there were valid reasons for every detail of how they worked and I just didn't have the full picture.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the SP job is lax. I'm not saying they don't come to work and do their job very well. What I'm saying is that they don't need as many people as some people think they need.

What I do know is that having 4 augmentees pulled from shops while, at the same time, having 4 SP Airmen in the office during shift, working on their CDCs, doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

The fact is that the SFS airmen get treated like shit. Working 12 hour shifts, with another hour for guard mount and weapons issue/turn in sucks. Then to have to show up on "days off" for appointments sucks. I wouldn't do that job if my life depended on it and I respect those who are willing and able to put up with the BS. But, ultimately, from what I've seen, there is no need for additional manning from the outside when there are many ways to utilize the internal manning more efficiently.

SomeRandomGuy
10-23-2014, 07:40 PM
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the SP job is lax. I'm not saying they don't come to work and do their job very well. What I'm saying is that they don't need as many people as some people think they need.

What I do know is that having 4 augmentees pulled from shops while, at the same time, having 4 SP Airmen in the office during shift, working on their CDCs, doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

The fact is that the SFS airmen get treated like shit. Working 12 hour shifts, with another hour for guard mount and weapons issue/turn in sucks. Then to have to show up on "days off" for appointments sucks. I wouldn't do that job if my life depended on it and I respect those who are willing and able to put up with the BS. But, ultimately, from what I've seen, there is no need for additional manning from the outside when there are many ways to utilize the internal manning more efficiently.

FWIW, I have seen some small changes recently. At this base they need 3 or 4 lanes open in the monring to get people onto the base without blocking traffic. They only need more than 2 people for about one hour from 0700-0800. The other day I saw an SF Captain out there checking IDs. Have also seen a lot more rank lately including some of the TSgts. Haven't seen a MSgt or above yet though.

There is really no reason the back shop guys can't get up from their desk and help for an hour in the morning every now and then. In the past they used to ask for augmentees to cover that hour or two. Glad someone finally realized tehy already have people who can cover it.

Drackore
10-27-2014, 12:55 PM
SF Auggy program is a huge hypocracy. My whole career I have heard "Deal with it, you get what you get" and then in comes a program that is so full of crap. I feel for cops, it's not their fault that the AF leadership sucks and can't properly address things like manning, but let's get real. Comm people, med people, etc are comm and med people. Not cops. They didn't go to tech school to be cops. It's a lazy and uneducated way to patch a problem without fixing it.

As far as the drawdown, knew it was coming. Fewer people going on more deployments and having to do more duties at homestation = even faster burnout.

Ya remember when we trained to do our mission, then executed our mission???? That was....15 yrs ago. Now we're doing other people's jobs (supply, admin, SF auggie), tons of bullcrap CBTs, and attending too many freaking meetings reading powerpoint slides.

3 years to go.