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garhkal
10-13-2014, 10:26 PM
Surprised the big channels (CNN/Fox/HLN etc) only seem to have this story on their sites or ticker if at all.

http://www.stripes.com/news/pacific/us-marine-detained-in-philippines-after-death-of-transgender-filipino-1.308086

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/nation/10/13/14/dfa-us-embassy-meet-over-transgenders-death

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/13/world/asia/philippines-transgender-slaying/index.html?iref=allsearch

Looking at the stories, it seems a Marine is being held in conjunction with the murder of a Transgendered person, which is also holding up the destroyer he is assigned to.

Rusty Jones
10-14-2014, 02:38 PM
I'm a liberal guy and everything, but my liberalism has limits and this is one of them.

I'm of the belief that there's no such thing as a sex change. Not unless they've figured out how to add and remove Y-chromosomes. If you have a Y-chromosome, you're a man. If not, you're a woman. No ifs, ands, or buts.

However, I don't let that conflict with my belief that one's gender identity should be respected.

If it was up to me, there would be laws requiring transgender disclose their genetic sex to their partner before having sex.

Until then, it never ceases to amaze me how transgenders never seem to learn - if you don't disclose your genetic sex, you're gonna get yourself killed! How many more times does this have to happen for them to get it through their heads?

USN - Retired
10-14-2014, 03:46 PM
Here's a picture of Jeffrey/Jennifer Laude

http://manila.coconuts.co/2014/10/14/pnp-names-us-soldier-suspected-killing-transgender-woman-olongapo

That US Marine must have been really drunk if he couldn't tell that his "date" was a "he" instead of a "she". Of course, it is possible that the US Marine is gay and the murder had nothing to do with the gender ambiguity of Jeffrey/Jennifer. Perhaps the US Marine and Jeffrey/Jennifer had an argument over money.

Stalwart
10-14-2014, 04:11 PM
which is also holding up the destroyer he is assigned to.

USS Peleliu -- LHA-5

BT BT

Overall not surprised it isn't a headline per se ... I doubt it would be an overly big deal of he was being held in the local jail ... not the same optic as a service member who rapes a child in Okinawa.

garhkal
10-14-2014, 09:22 PM
I always find it strange at what does and does NOT make the 'main news'.. A 7.3 earthquake down south in El Salvador, where at least 1 is dead just rates only a ticker mention, but barely a Cat 1 twister tearing up a few trees and house roofs rates a full 2-3 minutes of chatter..?

BURAWSKI
10-15-2014, 02:22 AM
I always find it strange at what does and does NOT make the 'main news'.. A 7.3 earthquake down south in El Salvador, where at least 1 is dead just rates only a ticker mention, but barely a Cat 1 twister tearing up a few trees and house roofs rates a full 2-3 minutes of chatter..?

That is the real problem with the main stream media. It is controlled by special interest and the big corporations, all with an agenda. As an example it is my opinion that this news on Ebola is blown all out of proportion. I think the media is making it sound worse than it is. I don't think we get the real news that we should be getting to make informed decisions about what is really happening in the United States and the world. These corporate special interests control the flow of information we receive. I would say the news I hear on most of the media outlets in the United States is not really news at all, but entertainment updates, and celebrity gossip. Years ago I remember there was a distinct difference between actual news and entertainment. In fact, the news was news. The celebrity gossip and entertainment updates were separate altogether and not on a 24 news cycle either.

garhkal
10-15-2014, 06:25 AM
It does seem like they are more like TV Tabloids than news channels these days.

CYBERFX1024
10-15-2014, 10:20 PM
It does seem like they are more like TV Tabloids than news channels these days.

Be glad you don't watch Filipino news channels because this story is ALL OVER IT. I have to because my wife is a Filipina and wants to watch news from home.

Supposedly he never told the Marine that he was a transgender until after they had sex. The Marine was probably really drunk to notice how Bakla/Gay this person looked. They are worried that he will get away with the crime.

TJMAC77SP
10-15-2014, 11:14 PM
Be glad you don't watch Filipino news channels because this story is ALL OVER IT. I have to because my wife is a Filipina and wants to watch news from home.

Supposedly he never told the Marine that he was a transgender until after they had sex. The Marine was probably really drunk to notice how Bakla/Gay this person looked. They are worried that he will get away with the crime.

I had assumed she was pre-op and he flipped when he discovered her 'surprise'. She was post-op? Why do they feel he will get away with the crime?

Measure Man
10-16-2014, 12:10 AM
Why do they feel he will get away with the crime?

...because he is in U.S. control. Back in the 80s when the bases were in full swing, it was not unusual for a G.I. in trouble with the Philippine authorities to be whisked out of the country under the cover of night on the next available flight. Sure we would promise a court martial or something, but sometimes it was just a slap on the wrist. Seen it happen several times with reasoning that they could not get a fair trial in the Philippines, a lot of truth to that, but still caused consternation among the locals.

The G.Is that did get detained and tried by Philippine authorities were often made an extreme example of...had a buddy in our squadron sentenced to 2 years in prison for a DUI noninjury crash, first offense.

Another good friend of mine was placed on International Hold and had all of his household goods seized pending a civil trial on the charge that he coerced his girlfriend, a virgin of course, into having sex by promising he would marry her. When he broke-up with her some months later, she filed a lawsuit. The girl was well-connected. He was fortunate to have been evacuated when Pinatubo went off...kissed all his possessions goodbye like a lot of people did anyway.

There is always the stories, (or urban legends?), of guys being taken for all they have for running over somebody's chicken with their car...of course, the chicken always turns out to be a prized fighting cock worth thousands of dollars when the owners don't otherwise have $200 to their name.

TJMAC77SP
10-16-2014, 12:57 PM
...because he is in U.S. control. Back in the 80s when the bases were in full swing, it was not unusual for a G.I. in trouble with the Philippine authorities to be whisked out of the country under the cover of night on the next available flight. Sure we would promise a court martial or something, but sometimes it was just a slap on the wrist. Seen it happen several times with reasoning that they could not get a fair trial in the Philippines, a lot of truth to that, but still caused consternation among the locals.

The G.Is that did get detained and tried by Philippine authorities were often made an extreme example of...had a buddy in our squadron sentenced to 2 years in prison for a DUI noninjury crash, first offense.

Another good friend of mine was placed on International Hold and had all of his household goods seized pending a civil trial on the charge that he coerced his girlfriend, a virgin of course, into having sex by promising he would marry her. When he broke-up with her some months later, she filed a lawsuit. The girl was well-connected. He was fortunate to have been evacuated when Pinatubo went off...kissed all his possessions goodbye like a lot of people did anyway.

There is always the stories, (or urban legends?), of guys being taken for all they have for running over somebody's chicken with their car...of course, the chicken always turns out to be a prized fighting cock worth thousands of dollars when the owners don't otherwise have $200 to their name.

Similar stories in Turkey (usually minus the sex with virgin aspect). Frankly,given the complete pervasiveness of corruption, I can understand why the US would be hesitant to turn over a US troop to the Philippines. As to Turkey, we have all seen Midnight Express I'm sure.

CYBERFX1024
10-16-2014, 02:51 PM
I had assumed she was pre-op and he flipped when he discovered her 'surprise'. She was post-op? Why do they feel he will get away with the crime?

No, from what I heard on TFC (The Filipino Channal) the last couple of days he was a Pre-Op Transgender with a Danish fiance. But I have seen many pre-ops who look very feminine looking in the Philippines, especially if you are drunk and have beer goggles on. Hell, My wife's best friend puts himself in transgender shows/pageants. I have seen pictures of it and I swear they look female.

The Filipino public is very concerned that he will get away with it for a number of reasons.
First: He is still in US control, and they want him transferred into Filipino Custody.

Second: The BRAND NEW VFA(Visiting Forces Agreement)stats that he will remain in US custody. So the far left is playing this that the US will just fly him out of the country in the middle of the night.

Third: I think he will actually be crucified so that the VFA is not damaged at all, but that's my two cents.

My wife and a I actually talked in depth about this the other night and that "Jeffery" should have been up front about the whole thing, but instead he tried to hide it and just let him ride the hershey highway. Which is not uncommon in that part of the world.

CYBERFX1024
10-16-2014, 02:52 PM
Another thing too is that Filipino judicial cases usually last years and not months like here in the USA. So it's going to be a long time before it's settled.

Rusty Jones
10-16-2014, 02:55 PM
Check out this article here:

http://www.rappler.com/nation/72224-killing-jennifer-laude-police-report

Very good information, but just one problem with it... it seems to have intentionally stopped short of stating whether or not sexual contact had occured before the murder.

It hints toward it not happening, simply by stating that PFC Pemberton killed this person simply for being gay after it was discovered. However... if sexual contact had not occured, then that needs to be stated.

I think that that's going to be the determining factor in whether or not this will be considered a hate crime. If sexual contact occured, then it's not a hate crime since the motive was being decieved into sexual relations with a man. If it did not occur, then they've got a good case for a hate crime.

I'm under the impression that it did occur, but they're trying to hint toward it having not occurred in order to make it look like a legit hate crime.

TJMAC77SP
10-16-2014, 05:07 PM
Check out this article here:

http://www.rappler.com/nation/72224-killing-jennifer-laude-police-report

Very good information, but just one problem with it... it seems to have intentionally stopped short of stating whether or not sexual contact had occured before the murder.

It hints toward it not happening, simply by stating that PFC Pemberton killed this person simply for being gay after it was discovered. However... if sexual contact had not occured, then that needs to be stated.

I think that that's going to be the determining factor in whether or not this will be considered a hate crime. If sexual contact occured, then it's not a hate crime since the motive was being decieved into sexual relations with a man. If it did not occur, then they've got a good case for a hate crime.

I'm under the impression that it did occur, but they're trying to hint toward it having not occurred in order to make it look like a legit hate crime.


Not sure your argument of why or why it isn't a hate crime will stand up. I don't think whether they had sex of any kind or not is relevant. The relevant element of a hate crime includes the act of prejudice (why he killed the person). Of course lawyers can argue any position they want and I am not even convinced this falls into the category of a hate crime but I am confident that the fact of whether they had sex prior to the murder is not truly relevant.

Rusty Jones
10-16-2014, 05:13 PM
Not sure your argument of why or why it isn't a hate crime will stand up. I don't think whether they had sex of any kind or not is relevant. The relevant element of a hate crime includes the act of prejudice (why he killed the person). Of course lawyers can argue any position they want and I am not even convinced this falls into the category of a hate crime but I am confident that the fact of whether they had sex prior to the murder is not truly relevant.

If they had had sex, then PFC Pemberton killed his victim because he was deceived into having sex with someone that he otherwise would not have had sex with. Not a hate crime.

If they did not have sex, then PFC Pemberton killed his victim because of their sexual orientation. That would be a hate crime.

TJMAC77SP
10-16-2014, 06:05 PM
If they had had sex, then PFC Pemberton killed his victim because he was deceived into having sex with someone that he otherwise would not have had sex with. Not a hate crime.

If they did not have sex, then PFC Pemberton killed his victim because of their sexual orientation. That would be a hate crime.

Aside from the logic fail, as I said, you don't seem to really understand what a hate crime is.

The root of the question is why he killed her. Not whether they had sex. If it were solely based on whether they had sex there could be no hate crime

That might have played a part in his ultimate action but if his motivation was her sexual orientation then that is the predicated prejudice and thus a hate crime (subject to the court's ruling of course).

Let's look at your premise......" PFC Pemberton killed his victim because he was deceived into having sex with someone that he otherwise would not have had sex with" Why wouldn't he have had sex with her? Because he doesn't have sex with men and she is gay? Prejudiced (or biased) motivation. Hate crime.

"If they did not have sex, then PFC Pemberton killed his victim because of their sexual orientation"..........Prejudiced (or biased) motivation. Hate crime

Rusty Jones
10-16-2014, 06:24 PM
Aside from the logic fail,

Just because you don't understand or agree with it, doesn't make it a fail. That's just your own personal issue to deal with.


as I said, you don't seem to really understand what a hate crime is.

Dude, get the fuck outta here with that shit. As usual, you didn't read what I wrote properly.


The root of the question is why he killed her. Not whether they had sex. If it were solely based on whether they had sex there could be no hate crime.

That might have played a part in his ultimate action but if his motivation was her sexual orientation then that is the predicated prejudice and thus a hate crime (subject to the court's ruling of course).

Re-read what I said. You should have gathered, from what I said, that whether or not they've had sex would determine the motive. Put yourself in PFC Pemberton's shoes. If you do not hate gays, and you found out before making any physical contact with Jennifer Laude that it was a man, then the reaction would be simple - you walk away and get the hell out of there. However - even if you don't hate gays - if you, as a heterosexual man, found out AFTER the fact... you're probably going to hurt that person. Maybe not KILL them, but you're probably going to hurt them. Does that mean you hate gays? No - you're pissed, because you just got duped into mining a hiney.

Now getting back to the scenario before making any sexual contact, if you hurt them... then yes, that's a hate crime - since the only possible motive in that case would be hate towards gays. You and I are saying the same thing.

CYBERFX1024
10-16-2014, 07:57 PM
Check out this article here:
http://www.rappler.com/nation/72224-killing-jennifer-laude-police-report
Very good information, but just one problem with it... it seems to have intentionally stopped short of stating whether or not sexual contact had occured before the murder.It hints toward it not happening, simply by stating that PFC Pemberton killed this person simply for being gay after it was discovered. However... if sexual contact had not occured, then that needs to be stated.
I think that that's going to be the determining factor in whether or not this will be considered a hate crime. If sexual contact occured, then it's not a hate crime since the motive was being decieved into sexual relations with a man. If it did not occur, then they've got a good case for a hate crime.
I'm under the impression that it did occur, but they're trying to hint toward it having not occurred in order to make it look like a legit hate crime.

It did occur at least according the to the Filipino news outlets. That was stated actually in the beginning that they found used condoms in the room with Jeffrey. I honestly don't think it is a hate crime. But that he tried to disguise himself as being a woman, and then after sex maybe tried to extort money from him. There are also other sources that say that Jeffrey might have been working as a prostitute. I will put in both links so that you can get an opinion for yourself.

http://www.rappler.com/nation/71937-olongapo-slay-us-marine

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/nation/regions/10/13/14/used-condoms-found-near-murdered-transgender

http://getrealphilippines.com/blog/2014/10/was-jeffrey-laude-a-prostitute-who-concealed-his-true-gender-in-the-practice-of-his-trade/

USN - Retired
10-16-2014, 07:58 PM
If they had had sex, then PFC Pemberton killed his victim because he was deceived into having sex with someone that he otherwise would not have had sex with. Not a hate crime.

If they did not have sex, then PFC Pemberton killed his victim because of their sexual orientation. That would be a hate crime.


There are other possibilities:

1. PFC Pemberton is gay, and he knew that Jeffry/Jennifer is a transsexual. Jeffry/Jennifer was a prostitute and she/he got into an argument with PFC Pemberton about money.

2. PFC Pemberton had a macabre desire to murder/strangle someone. In other words, perhaps PFC Pemberton thought that it would be fun to murder/strangle someone.

=============================================


"We're not going to give up on destroying the health care system for the American people." ~Paul Ryan

Paul Ryan did make this statement, but if you watch the longer video clip you can tell it was a slip of the tongue. The sentence right before this quote he claims certain policies are destroying the healthcare system and he wants to stop those. Then this sentence just appears to be accidentally missing a few words, something along the lines of "We're not going to give up on [stopping what we believe is] destroying the health care system..."

http://quotefail.com/quote/paul-ryan-were-not-going-give-destroying-health

Rusty is still trying to mislead us. @ Rusty: Why are you trying to mislead us?

TJMAC77SP
10-16-2014, 09:12 PM
Just because you don't understand or agree with it, doesn't make it a fail. That's just your own personal issue to deal with.

I completely understood what you were saying and do disagree with it. Hence why I said you are wrong. No personal issue at all. You have an opinion of fact. I have an opinion of fact which believes you are wrong. Which of us seems to have a personal issue.


Dude, get the fuck outta here with that shit. As usual, you didn't read what I wrote properly.



Re-read what I said. You should have gathered, from what I said, that whether or not they've had sex would determine the motive. Put yourself in PFC Pemberton's shoes. If you do not hate gays, and you found out before making any physical contact with Jennifer Laude that it was a man, then the reaction would be simple - you walk away and get the hell out of there. However - even if you don't hate gays - if you, as a heterosexual man, found out AFTER the fact... you're probably going to hurt that person. Maybe not KILL them, but you're probably going to hurt them. Does that mean you hate gays? No - you're pissed, because you just got duped into mining a hiney.

Now getting back to the scenario before making any sexual contact, if you hurt them... then yes, that's a hate crime - since the only possible motive in that case would be hate towards gays. You and I are saying the same thing.

Get the fuck out of here with common sense and logic. No thanks. I have read what you said several times. The same conclusion remains. You are wrong. It's your opinion, I get that. You are welcome to it.

You are however, making huge and unsupported assumptions, evidently based on what you believe your own reaction would be. That doesn't make it logical.

Some people may walk away after having sex and hope no one ever finds out. Some might walk out when the 'package' makes its' appearance.

Some might kill her after having sex. Some might kill her for merely attempting to have sex.

You have (which is no surprise to me at all) abandoned your professed liberalism here. While amusing me for the past couple of days it nonetheless does not negate the fact that you apparently do not have a concept of what a hate crime is and what the legal hurdle is to label it such.

sandsjames
10-17-2014, 12:26 AM
Aside from the logic fail, as I said, you don't seem to really understand what a hate crime is.

The root of the question is why he killed her. Not whether they had sex. If it were solely based on whether they had sex there could be no hate crime

That might have played a part in his ultimate action but if his motivation was her sexual orientation then that is the predicated prejudice and thus a hate crime (subject to the court's ruling of course).

Let's look at your premise......" PFC Pemberton killed his victim because he was deceived into having sex with someone that he otherwise would not have had sex with" Why wouldn't he have had sex with her? Because he doesn't have sex with men and she is gay? Prejudiced (or biased) motivation. Hate crime.

"If they did not have sex, then PFC Pemberton killed his victim because of their sexual orientation"..........Prejudiced (or biased) motivation. Hate crime

Not sure I see the logic fail there. It's the difference between a guy killing a woman because he hates women or a guy who kills a woman because she gave him a condom that she sabotaged and got pregnant. Just because she is a woman doesn't make it a hate crime. It's the reason for the killing that is the issue.

TJMAC77SP
10-17-2014, 01:05 AM
Not sure I see the logic fail there. It's the difference between a guy killing a woman because he hates women or a guy who kills a woman because she gave him a condom that she sabotaged and got pregnant. Just because she is a woman doesn't make it a hate crime. It's the reason for the killing that is the issue.

Exactly, the reason for the killing, not whether or not, by itself, they had sex or not.

I am not actually saying it is a hate crime. I am saying that the mere fact of whether they had sex or not is irrelevant. My stating 'hate crime' was to illustrate the logic fail in tying the presence of a hate crime on the sex act alone.

Having said that they argument could be made that it is indeed a hate crime based on the biased motivation of the Marine and his feelings about homosexuality. Quite frankly we don't know enough based on the information released.

Measure Man
10-17-2014, 05:13 AM
Exactly, the reason for the killing, not whether or not, by itself, they had sex or not.

Well...the reason for the killing, yes, is key to whether or not it is a hate crime.

Whether or not the victim did something to the suspect personally (deceived him into sex)...is certainly relevant information in trying to sort out his reason for killing her.

Rusty Jones
10-17-2014, 11:23 AM
Well...the reason for the killing, yes, is key to whether or not it is a hate crime.

Whether or not the victim did something to the suspect personally (deceived him into sex)...is certainly relevant information in trying to sort out his reason for killing her.

TJ simply likes to disagree me and, in doing so, likes to use terms like "logic fail" in order to position himself as some kind of "authority." He'd better go take a fucking seat somewhere with that shit.

sandsjames
10-17-2014, 11:30 AM
Exactly, the reason for the killing, not whether or not, by itself, they had sex or not.

I am not actually saying it is a hate crime. I am saying that the mere fact of whether they had sex or not is irrelevant. My stating 'hate crime' was to illustrate the logic fail in tying the presence of a hate crime on the sex act alone.

Having said that they argument could be made that it is indeed a hate crime based on the biased motivation of the Marine and his feelings about homosexuality. Quite frankly we don't know enough based on the information released.I'm going to work with a stereotype here in order to make my point. If my accountant ends up stealing millions of dollars from me and I kill him, does that make it a hate crime? What about if I'm anti-Semitic and my accountant happens to be Jewish, does that change things? If I kill him because he's Jewish then, yes, it's a hate crime. If I kill him because he deceived me and happens to be Jewish then the answer is no. Good luck proving one way or the other.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-17-2014, 01:00 PM
I have no trouble jumping to the conclusion that the Marine was drunk, probably very drunk, and that had more to do with why he overreacted and killed this person.

I'm also jumping to the conclusion that they went to the hotel for sex, and that it was a paid for encounter.

The violence could have easily started as a squabble over money.

To me, that seems like the likely scenario.

As long as I'm jumping to conclusions, I'll say that I think it is very unlikely that he was duped into having a sexual encounter with a transsexual. Despite my assumption that the Marine was very drunk, these ladies are usually found in very specific places, and it is very obvious to even drunk customers what kind of prostitutes are on staff.

However, let's say I'm wrong about him being duped. That's still not a reason for him to beat another person to death.

Rusty Jones
10-17-2014, 01:20 PM
I have no trouble jumping to the conclusion that the Marine was drunk, probably very drunk, and that had more to do with why he overreacted and killed this person.

I'm also jumping to the conclusion that they went to the hotel for sex, and that it was a paid for encounter.

The violence could have easily started as a squabble over money.

To me, that seems like the likely scenario.

As long as I'm jumping to conclusions, I'll say that I think it is very unlikely that he was duped into having a sexual encounter with a transsexual. Despite my assumption that the Marine was very drunk, these ladies are usually found in very specific places, and it is very obvious to even drunk customers what kind of prostitutes are on staff.

However, let's say I'm wrong about him being duped. That's still not a reason for him to beat another person to death.

What we do know so far, from the information that's been released, is that the sex of the victim is what led to the murder - not money. We also know that they did go the hotel for sex (but not whether or not they actually had sex), as the name of the hotel that they checked into is even mentioned.

I'm actually curious as to how many of you here could actually find out after the fact you just got duped into having sex with a man (and the man is still in the room when you figured this out), and then go on about your day like nothing happened.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-17-2014, 02:06 PM
What we do know so far, from the information that's been released, is that the sex of the victim is what led to the murder - not money. We also know that they did go the hotel for sex (but not whether or not they actually had sex), as the name of the hotel that they checked into is even mentioned.

I'm actually curious as to how many of you here could actually find out after the fact you just got duped into having sex with a man (and the man is still in the room when you figured this out), and then go on about your day like nothing happened.

What are you saying? It was justified homicide?

I doubt you are saying that. Are you saying that it is a mitigating factor?

I don't think this Marine committed First Degree Murder, but Second or Third Degree Murder.

He doesn't deserve a free pass even if he was duped. I hope you aren't claiming that.

In my opinion, if you are going to go out and party in Thailand or the PI, put on your big boy pants.

Stories of ladyboys in these places are legendary, and if you end up in a hotel room with one, it shouldn't be an automatic death sentence for the ladyboy.

Fuck, that Marine should take it as a lesson learned. He had no right to give the ladyboy even a beating, much less kill him.

He killed a person. Why?

Because he went out got drunk, and then got into a situation that he handled very badly, and another person died as the result.

Fuck him, I don't feel sorry for him at all.

I sure as hell bet that this Marine, as he sits in the brig of his ship contemplating an uncertain future, is wishing that he went about his day like nothing happened.

He'd be much better off right now if he had done just that.

You don't think the onus is on the Marine to have a ounce of fucking street smarts when out partying in a place like the PI?

Measure Man
10-17-2014, 03:48 PM
I'm actually curious as to how many of you here could actually find out after the fact you just got duped into having sex with a man (and the man is still in the room when you figured this out), and then go on about your day like nothing happened.

No, you grab your shit, get out of there...go home and take a long shower and throw your clothes away, then try to pretend like nothing happened, locking yourself in your room for the next week watching the Outlaw Josey Wales and building model battleships, pausing occasionally to cry softly into your pillow...let out one good scream and commit to drinking less, then go to confession.

I mean, I guess someone might do that.

Stalwart
10-17-2014, 03:54 PM
What we do know so far, from the information that's been released, is that the sex of the victim is what led to the murder - not money. We also know that they did go the hotel for sex (but not whether or not they actually had sex), as the name of the hotel that they checked into is even mentioned.

I suspect the sex of the victim is what led to the incident; I don't know that. I suspect a defense attorney could argue (unless the Marine pleads out etc.) that there was an attempted robbery, assault on the Marine etc. The only thing I do know is that of the two people in that room, only one can every tell us his version of what happened.


I'm actually curious as to how many of you here could actually find out after the fact you just got duped into having sex with a man (and the man is still in the room when you figured this out), and then go on about your day like nothing happened.

There is a large gap between acting like nothing happened and beating someone to death. And again, I don't know if the victim was beaten to death or died of a mitigating factor (fell after being struck and died from the impact of the fall etc. -- Marine still at fault.) Either way, the Marine most likely is responsible for the death. 1st Degree Murder under U.S. Law, probably not ... probably 2d or 3d; but he will likely not be held to the U.S. standard.

Incidentally ... anyone know if the Philippines has 'hate crime' legislation -- is that even a factor there?

Rusty Jones
10-17-2014, 03:55 PM
What are you saying? It was justified homicide?

I doubt you are saying that. Are you saying that it is a mitigating factor?

I don't think this Marine committed First Degree Murder, but Second or Third Degree Murder.

He doesn't deserve a free pass even if he was duped. I hope you aren't claiming that.

I'm not saying that he was right. I'm asking you... what would YOU do? What would anyone else here do? Sure, the RIGHT thing to do might be to go on about your day and pretend like nothing happened... but we don't always do the right thing, do we?


In my opinion, if you are going to go out and party in Thailand or the PI, put on your big boy pants.

Stories of ladyboys in these places are legendary, and if you end up in a hotel room with one, it shouldn't be an automatic death sentence for the ladyboy.

Fuck, that Marine should take it as a lesson learned. He had no right to give the ladyboy even a beating, much less kill him.

Maybe for YOU, those stories legendary. Maybe to someone who came in during the mid-to late 1990s, those stories might be legendary even if only based on second hand information. But to a young E2 who's only been in the military since lunch, on a port visit to a country whose US bases closed well over 20 years ago - which means that the majority of the people who've served there have long since retired, including those who were at the same point in their careers as this young PFC of Marines is now - he's likely 100% clueless.


He killed a person. Why?

That's what we're all speculating on right now.


Because he went out got drunk, and then got into a situation that he handled very badly, and another person died as the result.

Fuck him, I don't feel sorry for him at all.

I sure as hell bet that this Marine, as he sits in the brig of his ship contemplating an uncertain future, is wishing that he went about his day like nothing happened.

He'd be much better off right now if he had done just that.

You don't think the onus is on the Marine to have a ounce of fucking street smarts when out partying in a place like the PI?

Okay, let me ask you a question... IF you found out after the fact that you got duped into having sex with a man, and the man is still in the room when you realized this, how would you react? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't kill him, but would you physically hurt him in any non-lethal kind of way? Or would you simply walk away, and behave as though nothing happened?

Rusty Jones
10-17-2014, 03:58 PM
No, you grab your shit, get out of there...go home and take a long shower and throw your clothes away, then try to pretend like nothing happened, locking yourself in your room for the next week watching the Outlaw Josey Wales and building model battleships, pausing occasionally to cry softly into your pillow...let out one good scream and commit to drinking less, then go to confession.

I mean, I guess someone might do that.

The only way I'D do something like that, is if the tranny pulled out a gun before I could I lunge toward him.

Stalwart
10-17-2014, 03:58 PM
No, you grab your shit, get out of there...go home and take a long shower and throw your clothes away, then try to pretend like nothing happened, locking yourself in your room for the next week watching the Outlaw Josey Wales and building model battleships, pausing occasionally to cry softly into your pillow...let out one good scream and commit to drinking less, then go to confession.

I mean, I guess someone might do that.

That is a pretty detailed description.

Outlaw Josey Wales reference, +1 sir.

Rusty Jones
10-17-2014, 04:00 PM
There is a large gap between acting like nothing happened and beating someone to death.

Very true, and I'm assuming that most heterosexual men would do something that falls somewhere in the middle. What I'D do to him would likely only be considered a misdemeanor in most US jurisdictions.

Stalwart
10-17-2014, 04:18 PM
Okay, let me ask you a question... IF you found out after the fact that you got duped into having sex with a man, and the man is still in the room when you realized this, how would you react? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't kill him, but would you physically hurt him in any non-lethal kind of way? Or would you simply walk away, and behave as though nothing happened?

Thankfully, I have never thought about this. That said, even a PFC (E-2) gets some kind of libbo brief before walking down the brow in a foreign port. Even if you just grab the guy, throw him out of the room with a boot to the ass, you could be committing assault in that foreign country; and there are some countries that you definitely do not want to be the American who just assaulted a local ... right or wrong and factors behind it are separate and irrelevant to the assault. Would I do nothing; likely not, but when even just smacking a guy upside the head may land you 5 years in a local jail ... hell ... just insulting a local in Turkey can get you jail time, I may have to exercise a higher level of control that I otherwise would want to.

USN - Retired
10-17-2014, 04:49 PM
1st Degree Murder under U.S. Law, probably not ... probably 2d or 3d; but he will likely not be held to the U.S. standard.

That's what I thought originally, but now I'm not so sure. I am also suspecting that PFC Pemberton was not intoxicated at the time of the murder. Here's why - the media is telling us that there was no sign of a struggle at the scene of the crime. Keep in mind that PFC Pemberton didn't kill some weak little woman. PFC Pemberton killed another man. Why did Jeffry/Jennifer not put up more of a fight? Additionally, the used condoms were in the trash and not on the floor or bed. The murder scene is just too neat. Given that there was no sign of a struggle at the scene of a crime, I am now suspecting that the murder was deliberately planned by PFC Pemberton and PFC Pemberton was not intoxicated at that time.

Rusty Jones
10-17-2014, 05:03 PM
That's what I thought originally, but now I'm not so sure. I am also suspecting that PFC Pemberton was not intoxicated at the time of the murder. Here's why - the media is telling us that there was no sign of a struggle at the scene of the crime. Keep in mind that PFC Pemberton didn't kill some weak little woman. PFC Pemberton killed another man. Why did Jeffry/Jennifer not put up more of a fight? Additionally, the used condoms were in the trash and not on the floor or bed. The murder scene is just too neat. Given that there was no sign of a struggle at the scene of a crime, I am now suspecting that the murder was deliberately planned by PFC Pemberton and PFC Pemberton was not intoxicated at that time.


Whoah, wait... used condoms? Was that in any of the articles that have been posted in this thread so far? If so, I missed it. So they DID have sex, then?

As far as there no being signs of a struggle... are they referring to collateral damage in the room, or marks on PFC Pemberton that would've been put there by Laude? I would think that it's possible to beat a man to death without either happening - and although neither is likely, there is a greater likelihood for the latter.

Stalwart
10-17-2014, 05:07 PM
Keep in mind that PFC Pemberton didn't kill some weak little woman. PFC Pemberton killed another man.

1. Not all men are created equal. Many Philippine males I see are significantly smaller in stature than me (I am kind of an avg build for an American). I don't see (all things being equal) a fight between a 6' tall, 190 pound man and a 5'6", 150 pound or so man being a match of 'equals.' I don't know the height or weight of the victim, but in the photo of them going up the stairs Ms. Laude seems to be anywhere from 3-6 inches shorter than Pemberton.

2. PFC Pemberton is a Marine. At the least he has had hand to hand combat training -- at the tan belt level as a minimum to get out of boot camp -- which includes lethal techniques. I think I read he is an infantryman, so has hand to hand training beyond the basic qual, and the shortest infantry school is about 10 weeks, where aggressiveness is encouraged. Not saying he is a bad-ass by any means, but has been trained how to and practiced how to fight. He may not beat the crap out of a biker at a bar, but an effeminate (passive) male, 4, 5, 6 inches shorter, 40-50 pounds lighter ... not a stretch at all.

The rest is speculation that we really don't know.

Did the victim not put up a fight or just not much of one? Only PFC Pemberton can answer that; with his version of what took place.

Was there a struggle, that resulted in little or no damage to the room? Only PFC Pemberton can answer that; with his version of what took place.

Was PFC Pemberton drunk at the time? If there isn't a toxicology report, only PFC Pemberton can answer that; with his version of what took place.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-17-2014, 05:23 PM
I'm not saying that he was right. I'm asking you... what would YOU do? What would anyone else here do? Sure, the RIGHT thing to do might be to go on about your day and pretend like nothing happened... but we don't always do the right thing, do we?



Maybe for YOU, those stories legendary. Maybe to someone who came in during the mid-to late 1990s, those stories might be legendary even if only based on second hand information. But to a young E2 who's only been in the military since lunch, on a port visit to a country whose US bases closed well over 20 years ago - which means that the majority of the people who've served there have long since retired, including those who were at the same point in their careers as this young PFC of Marines is now - he's likely 100% clueless.

I'm not buying your characterization of him being 100% clueless. If anything, today's generation of young troops are far better informed than the troops of my era.

Furthermore, if he did go on libo, without getting even a rudimentary safety briefing, then shame on his NCOs.

Hell, how many times a year does a US service member get into an international incident for being a drunk asshole? It happens way too much.

They are being told that the consequences and dangers of getting too drunk and in trouble while in a foreign land are great. Don't try to pretend they are clueless little lambs when they hit a foreign port.

It seems like there is at least one foreign national per year killed by our guys when they are drunk and out on the town.

I'm not going to try to make excuses for our guys when it comes to stupid drunken behavior.






That's what we're all speculating on right now.

It was a rhetorical question that I spoke to in the very next sentence. Stop being so TJMAC-ish.

Here is my characterization of why, "Because he went out got drunk, and then got into a situation that he handled very badly, and another person died as the result."




Okay, let me ask you a question... IF you found out after the fact that you got duped into having sex with a man, and the man is still in the room when you realized this, how would you react? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't kill him, but would you physically hurt him in any non-lethal kind of way? Or would you simply walk away, and behave as though nothing happened?

I sure as hell would think twice before I tried to hand out a beating to a ladyboy prostitute, they are men, after all.

Men who have likely been into plenty of fights before, and who can probably swing a stiletto heeled shoe with deadly accuracy.

You go ahead and talk your big game about defending your manhood, by handing out a beating.

The only thing dumber than starting a fight with a tranny prostitute in a hotel room, is picking a fight with one on a street corner.

It could very easily turn into a life or death struggle, and in this case it seems it did.

What would I do?

Go back to base, and take few dozen showers.

Beating them up doesn't accomplish anything.

Stop talking trash, like you are a badass.

Rusty Jones
10-17-2014, 05:36 PM
Men who have likely been into plenty of fights before, and who can probably swing a stiletto heeled shoe with deadly accuracy.

You go ahead and talk your big game about defending your manhood, by handing out a beating.

The only thing dumber than starting a fight with a tranny prostitute in a hotel room, is picking a fight with one on a street corner.

It could very easily turn into a life or death struggle, and in this case it seems it did.

What would I do?

Go back to base, and take few dozen showers.

Beating them up doesn't accomplish anything.

Stop talking trash, like you are a badass.

Look, different strokes for different folks - if you'd beat his ass, great. If you'd simply go back to ship and take a few showers, that's fine too - but not everyone is like that, and I'll go out on a limb and say that very few are. This isn't about being a "badass" - as I'm pretty positive that ANY fist fight that anyone here on MTF has ever been in was over something far less than being duped into plugging a man in the ass.

No, it doesn't take a "badass" for a heterosexual man to respond violently to this. If you look at the vast majority of the famous cases of trannies that have been killed by the men that they duped, the murderers weren't bikers, gang members, ex-convicts, or anyone else that one would consider a "badass" - they were simply regular men that reacted a certain away to a certain situation.

TJMAC77SP
10-17-2014, 05:49 PM
Well...the reason for the killing, yes, is key to whether or not itis a hate crime.

Whether or not the victim did something to the suspect personally (deceived himinto sex)...is certainly relevant information in trying to sort out his reasonfor killing her.


TJ simply likes to disagree me and, in doing so, likes to useterms like "logic fail" in order to position himself as some kind of"authority." He'd better go take a fucking seat somewhere with thatshit.

Sorry I hit a nerve.

So MM, do you agree with Rusty that whether or not they had sex is what will determine whether or not it is a hate crime.

Just to be clear and avoid the usual charges that I am twisting anyone’s words, here are the exact words as posted…………..


………………….

I think that that's going to be the determining factor in whether or not this will be considered a hate crime. If sexual contact occurred (sic) then it's not a hate crime since the motive was being decieved (sic) into sexual relations witha man. If it did not occur, then they've got a good case for a hate crime…….

I like to agree with the truth and logic. All else is fair game.

TJMAC77SP
10-17-2014, 05:51 PM
I'm going to work with a stereotype here in order to make my point. If my accountant ends up stealing millions of dollars from me and I kill him, does that make it a hate crime? What about if I'm anti-Semitic and my accountant happens to be Jewish, does that change things? If I kill him because he's Jewish then, yes, it's a hate crime. If I kill him because he deceived me and happens to be Jewish then the answer is no. Good luck proving one way or the other.

There has to be evidence of the 'biased motivation'. If you ranted about 'fucking cheating Jews" prior to killing your accountant there might be a case.


Despite a claim here I haven't seem any elimination of money as an issue as AA brought up. That could be the case (although my gut says it will boil down to the fact that the victim was a TG).

I think sometimes the hate crime laws are over-applied. Sometimes it is pretty obvious (Boys don't cry case). Sometimes it seems the mere membership in a typically targeted group is enough.

Stalwart
10-17-2014, 05:54 PM
I'm pretty positive that ANY fist fight that anyone here on MTF has ever been in was over something far less than being duped into plugging a man in the ass.

Good God I hope so.

TJMAC77SP
10-17-2014, 05:56 PM
No, you grab your shit, get out of there...go home and take a long shower and throw your clothes away, then try to pretend like nothing happened, locking yourself in your room for the next week watching the Outlaw Josey Wales and building model battleships, pausing occasionally to cry softly into your pillow...let out one good scream and commit to drinking less, then go to confession.

I mean, I guess someone might do that.

I am pretty certain my reaction would be along the lines you describe, rather than jumping to homicide. Which is funny given that I am such a reactionary neocon and not a self-declared liberal with deep feelings for my fellow man.

I am assuming given biological facts that the only sex I could have 'by accident' with a TG is to receive oral. Again, I am more the 'get the fuck out of dodge and swear off binge drinking' kind of guy in a case like that.

Rusty Jones
10-17-2014, 06:06 PM
Good God I hope so.

Something about AA's post... look, any man who says that they'd walk out and do nothing... I'll believe them, though I'd presume otherwise about them unless otherwise stated. And, contrary to what AA is saying, I don't think that anyone is trying to be a "badass" or "restore their manhood" by doing it. It's simply not true - they're reacting to something that drove them to a violent form of anger. Hell, I'd be more pissed off about that, than if a random grown man were to walk up to my wife and slap her in the face right in front me - and maybe that's not everyboday, but that's me. It has nothing to do with having something to prove.

Now, if we were talking about a situation where you don't find out until the next day that you had sex with a man, and then you hunt the person down to commit an act of violence... THEN I might agree with AA; if only to some extent.

Stalwart
10-17-2014, 06:07 PM
What I'D do to him would likely only be considered a misdemeanor in most US jurisdictions.

Yeah, but in another country you aren't subject (necessarily) to US jurisdiction. I am thinking that we are holding him to keep him safe while the Philippine law enforcement sorts their work out and to make sure he is not subjected to a kangaroo court.

I would think that:

1. He is going to get formally indicted by a court from the Philippines.

2. He will likely be turned over to the Philippine court system for prosecution under their law.

3. He is going to get convicted of something (murder/manslaughter etc.)

4. He is going to do time in a Philippine jail.

5. Life as he knows it is pretty much over, at least for a few years.

Stalwart
10-17-2014, 06:18 PM
Something about AA's post... look, any man who says that they'd walk out and do nothing... I'll believe them, though I'd presume otherwise about them unless otherwise stated. And, contrary to what AA is saying, I don't think that anyone is trying to be a "badass" or "restore their manhood" by doing it. It's simply not true - they're reacting to something that drove them to a violent form of anger. Hell, I'd be more pissed off about that, than if a random grown man were to walk up to my wife and slap her in the face right in front me - and maybe that's not everyboday, but that's me. It has nothing to do with having something to prove.

Yeah, I get your point, it isn't about manliness or bravado. I will say that if I was overseas in a foreign port, knowing that I am small potatoes in international relations & combined with the fact that I have a family back home I want to see on a routine basis ... unless I was fighting to defend my life or that of someone I was with I wouldn't lay hands on a local, or anyone else for that matter. I have too much to loose over losing my temper, no matter the provocation.

EDIT: Not too long ago I had a conversation with someone about the case in TX where a dad was acquitted of killing a man who had assaulted or killed his son ... don't remember the specifics. But, being a new dad this hit a new and different perspective for me. What if someone sexually assaulted my daughter, what if someone assaulted and killed my daughter? I certainly have the ability, knowledge and general skills to likely kill this person, but then what? Maybe I am acquitted ... maybe not. If I go to jail, I am not going to be home to comfort my daughter & wife and help them through the situation. In this new light, no ... I probably wouldn't go after this person ... not out of cowardice or unwillingness to defend them or administer justice on their behalf; but out of a desire to be with them as they heal through the situation. Worst case, this person kills my daughter, I kill him and I go to jail ... now my wife is all alone and has lost those she is closest to. A younger me would say "I'd kill that guy" or "I'd beat him within an inch of his life"; today-me says ... I probably wouldn't, not because I couldn't ... but I would rather be there to hold my daughter and hold my wife and get through the situation as a family.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-17-2014, 06:22 PM
Something about AA's post... look, any man who says that they'd walk out and do nothing... I'll believe them, though I'd presume otherwise about them unless otherwise stated. And, contrary to what AA is saying, I don't think that anyone is trying to be a "badass" or "restore their manhood" by doing it. It's simply not true - they're reacting to something that drove them to a violent form of anger. Hell, I'd be more pissed off about that, than if a random grown man were to walk up to my wife and slap her in the face right in front me - and maybe that's not everyboday, but that's me. It has nothing to do with having something to prove.

Now, if we were talking about a situation where you don't find out until the next day that you had sex with a man, and then you hunt the person down to commit an act of violence... THEN I might agree with AA; if only to some extent.

You seem very curious about this.

I think the only way you are going to know for sure is if you go spend sometime with a tranny.

So why don't you go hook up with a tranny this weekend, have your very own "crying game" and report back to us.

TJMAC77SP
10-17-2014, 06:24 PM
You seem very curious about this.

I think the only way you are going to know for sure is if you go spend sometime with a tranny.

So why don't you go hook up with a tranny this weekend, have your very own "crying game" and report back to us.

Or..........have your lawyer report back to us

Rusty Jones
10-17-2014, 06:27 PM
You seem very curious about this.

I think the only way you are going to know for sure is if you go spend sometime with a tranny.

So why don't you go hook up with a tranny this weekend, have your very own "crying game" and report back to us.

Sorry, bud... you're the one who would simply go back home and take a shower afterwards. Which is funny, because that's exactly the same thing that most men do after they have sex with WOMEN. That's pretty telling. Jus' sayin'

TJMAC77SP
10-17-2014, 06:43 PM
Sorry, bud... you're the one who would simply go back home and take a shower afterwards. Which is funny, because that's exactly the same thing that most men do after they have sex with WOMEN. That's pretty telling. Jus' sayin'

In all seriousness Rusty you have quite a history here of touchiness on this subject.

No judging but it really kinda shines through sometimes.

Rusty Jones
10-17-2014, 06:46 PM
In all seriousness Rusty you have quite a history here of touchiness on this subject.

No judging but it really kinda shines through sometimes.

On what subject? Trannies? I only remember two instances where I discussed trannies, and they were with MM - where he stated that he would knowingly have sex with a post-op tranny. And they were both friendly discussions.

Unless you're talking about something else.

CYBERFX1024
10-17-2014, 06:54 PM
Whoah, wait... used condoms? Was that in any of the articles that have been posted in this thread so far? If so, I missed it. So they DID have sex, then?
As far as there no being signs of a struggle... are they referring to collateral damage in the room, or marks on PFC Pemberton that would've been put there by Laude? I would think that it's possible to beat a man to death without either happening - and although neither is likely, there is a greater likelihood for the latter.

If you would have read the three articles that I put the links in here, then yes you would have read that there was used condoms to be found. Also it does say that there was a struggle.

CYBERFX1024
10-17-2014, 06:56 PM
That's what I thought originally, but now I'm not so sure. I am also suspecting that PFC Pemberton was not intoxicated at the time of the murder. Here's why - the media is telling us that there was no sign of a struggle at the scene of the crime. Keep in mind that PFC Pemberton didn't kill some weak little woman. PFC Pemberton killed another man. Why did Jeffry/Jennifer not put up more of a fight? Additionally, the used condoms were in the trash and not on the floor or bed. The murder scene is just too neat. Given that there was no sign of a struggle at the scene of a crime, I am now suspecting that the murder was deliberately planned by PFC Pemberton and PFC Pemberton was not intoxicated at that time.

Actually Filipino media is saying that there was a struggle in the room and the bakla did try and fight back. But honestly I have seen it when gay filipino men are fighting it's really pathetic at best. So basically he did fight back but he wasn't strong enough to do anything.

Stalwart
10-17-2014, 07:05 PM
Actually Filipino media is saying that there was a struggle in the room and the bakla did try and fight back. But honestly I have seen it when gay filipino men are fighting it's really pathetic at best. So basically he did fight back but he wasn't strong enough to do anything.

Bakla? .......

Absinthe Anecdote
10-17-2014, 07:14 PM
Actually Filipino media is saying that there was a struggle in the room and the bakla did try and fight back. But honestly I have seen it when gay filipino men are fighting it's really pathetic at best. So basically he did fight back but he wasn't strong enough to do anything.

I've seen a Thai tranny get into a fight with a drunk Russian on Walking Street in Pattaya and she was fearsome. Plus, within seconds she had a half dozen "sisters" at her side.

The drunk Russian was escorted away by the tourist police, face all scratched up, torn shirt, and head down.

TJMAC77SP
10-17-2014, 07:48 PM
On what subject? Trannies? I only remember two instances where I discussed trannies, and they were with MM - where he stated that he would knowingly have sex with a post-op tranny. And they were both friendly discussions.

Unless you're talking about something else.


Anything related to homosexuality.

Did you really not get that?

Rainmaker
10-17-2014, 08:50 PM
Anything related to homosexuality.

Did you really not get that?

Rainmaker don't got a Television Programming device in his house, and hadn't followed it all. But, reading thru the thread and For the firss time in his life Rainmaker pretty much in agreement with Rusty.
Now, Every Heterosexual man has a rule. It's the one dick per fantasy rule. So, as a bettin man, Rainmaker'd take odds that this is a simple case of mistaken identity and once, the lights came on and Jenny's twig n berries came out. this dude prolly juss snapped and went overboard. Probably didn't mean to kill anyone and if that's the case. It's by no means excusable. but, it's understandable.

TJMAC77SP
10-17-2014, 09:00 PM
Rainmaker don't got a Television Programming device in his house, and hadn't followed it all. But, reading thru the thread and For the firss time in his life Rainmaker pretty much in agreement with Rusty.
Now, Every Heterosexual man has a rule. It's the one dick per fantasy rule. So, as a bettin man, Rainmaker'd take odds that this is a simple case of mistaken identity and once, the lights came on and Jenny's twig n berries came out. this dude prolly juss snapped and went overboard. Probably didn't mean to kill anyone and if that's the case. It's by no means excusable. but, it's understandable.

Well, if you condone murder for that then yeah, you agree with Rusty in what he would (or probably do) in a similar situation

Of course that wasn't really my point but in your mind what happened prior to the lights going on where the victim's gender wasn't apparent? The only thing I can think of (as I said) was the Marine received oral (at worst....at best some petting).

BTW: The only place I have read or heard about this incident is this thread.

Rainmaker
10-17-2014, 09:51 PM
Well, if you condone murder for that then yeah, you agree with Rusty in what he would (or probably do) in a similar situation

Of course that wasn't really my point but in your mind what happened prior to the lights going on where the victim's gender wasn't apparent? The only thing I can think of (as I said) was the Marine received oral (at worst....at best some petting).

BTW: The only place I have read or heard about this incident is this thread.

Rainmaker is married and had good eye sight when he wasn't,so he never had to worry bout it.

so, you took from Rainmaker's comment that he condones murder? If someone molests your kid and you react in a fit of rage and kill the bastard. it's still a crime. possibly still murder. But, it's understandable how it could happen. gnomesayin?

TJMAC77SP
10-18-2014, 12:34 AM
Rainmaker is married and had good eye sight when he wasn't,so he never had to worry bout it.

so, you took from Rainmaker's comment that he condones murder? If someone molests your kid and you react in a fit of rage and kill the bastard. it's still a crime. possibly still murder. But, it's understandable how it could happen. gnomesayin?

So we are equating sex with a TG (deceived into it or not) and the murder of one of our children?

I do know what you are saying but I think any discussion that attempts to say it is ok, on any level, with killing someone in this particular case is on dangerous ground

'What If' games get out of hand real quick.

What is bullfrogs had wings......................they wouldn't bump their ass when they land.

CYBERFX1024
10-18-2014, 12:48 AM
Bakla? .......

Bakla is Tagalog for gay, while in my wife's language of Cebuano it is Bayot.

sandsjames
10-18-2014, 12:02 PM
I equate someone concealing their sex and "tricking" someone (don't know if that's the case here) into sleeping with them, based on them being a particular gender, to rape. If a guy rapes a woman I can understand (not necessarily condone) her attempting to kill him if given the chance. I can also see the public reacting to that killing of the rapist with a lot more empathy than this Marine is receiving (assuming he was "duped"). I can't think that we are to such an extreme point of political correctness that we should be expected to react rationally in this situation or be considered a homophobe.

Stalwart
10-18-2014, 01:32 PM
I equate someone concealing their sex and "tricking" someone (don't know if that's the case here) into sleeping with them, based on them being a particular gender, to rape. If a guy rapes a woman I can understand (not necessarily condone) her attempting to kill him if given the chance. I can also see the public reacting to that killing of the rapist with a lot more empathy than this Marine is receiving (assuming he was "duped"). I can't think that we are to such an extreme point of political correctness that we should be expected to react rationally in this situation or be considered a homophobe.

Interesting point, I don't know if I would equate it to rape -- traumatic sure but I don't know. But along that line of thinking, death is a possible punishment under the UCMJ for rape.

I can understand that in this case someone would lose their cool ... I really can. Does that justify beating the person to death, if you re not in fear of your own life ... no.

TJMAC77SP
10-18-2014, 01:46 PM
I am still trying to figure out how anyone is 'deceived' or 'tricked' into have sex with a pre-op TG unless, it was as I said earlier to receive oral. In every other activity, all becomes quite obvious and then there is no deceit or trickery.

I also would not equate this with rape. That is taking it a bit far. I also doubt the majority of people would feel that way.

Of course everyone looks at different things in different ways.

Measure Man
10-18-2014, 08:46 PM
Something about AA's post... look, any man who says that they'd walk out and do nothing... I'll believe them, though I'd presume otherwise about them unless otherwise stated.

I was actually just kidding...

Honestly, I have no idea what I would do...but, thankfully, those years are behind me. I spent 4 years in P.I., and those guys aren't that hard to figure out. Some look nice in pictures, but in person they aren't hard to identify...

Rainmaker
10-18-2014, 09:43 PM
So we are equating sex with a TG (deceived into it or not) and the murder of one of our children?

I do know what you are saying but I think any discussion that attempts to say it is ok, on any level, with killing someone in this particular case is on dangerous ground

'What If' games get out of hand real quick.

What is bullfrogs had wings......................they wouldn't bump their ass when they land.

And if your Aunt had nuts...she'd be your Uncle..

TJMAC77SP
10-18-2014, 10:10 PM
And if your Aunt had nuts...she'd be your Uncle..


There is that................

Absinthe Anecdote
10-19-2014, 04:22 PM
Look, different strokes for different folks - if you'd beat his ass, great. If you'd simply go back to ship and take a few showers, that's fine too - but not everyone is like that, and I'll go out on a limb and say that very few are. This isn't about being a "badass" - as I'm pretty positive that ANY fist fight that anyone here on MTF has ever been in was over something far less than being duped into plugging a man in the ass.

No, it doesn't take a "badass" for a heterosexual man to respond violently to this. If you look at the vast majority of the famous cases of trannies that have been killed by the men that they duped, the murderers weren't bikers, gang members, ex-convicts, or anyone else that one would consider a "badass" - they were simply regular men that reacted a certain away to a certain situation.

My comments about being a "badass" were primarily directed at your posturing on this forum over the subject.

I think the desire for your posts to appear as if they were written by, Super-fly TNT, is clouding your judgement. TJMAC might say you had another logic failure.

However, I would simply say, "Stop pretending that you are a bad ass pimp, who beats up asian trannies in hotel rooms."

Seriously, all joking aside, I generally reject the notion that service members are routinely duped into having sex with transgender prostitutes.

If you find yourself in a hotel room with one, you knew what you were getting into. If not, then chances are you drank way too much.

Either way, getting violent with a professional prostitute in a foreign country is an incredibly dumb move.

It is much wiser to just return to your ship, and not kick anyone's ass over your own stupidity.

I'm sure PFC Pemberton will back me up on this.

Stalwart
10-19-2014, 04:26 PM
Either way, getting violent with a professional prostitute in a foreign country is an incredibly dumb move.

This pretty much sums up the argument.

I may be able to fight one or two of them, but if they go all Agent Smith from the Matrix with scores of them coming to help out I am screwed; and ending up in a Philippine jail or Turkish prison is not on the bucket list.

Rusty Jones
10-19-2014, 05:48 PM
My comments about being a "badass" werif primarily directed at your posturing on this forum over the subject.

I think the desire for your posts to appear as if they were written by, Super-fly TNT, is clouding your judgement. TJMAC might say you had another logic failure.

However, I would simply say, "Stop pretending that you are a bad ass pimp, who beats up asian trannies in hotel rooms."

Straw man. It should have been clear that I was speaking in the context of what I believe that the average heterosexual male would do. Even Rainmaker saw that.

But in your case... you'd simply go home and shower, as if he was a woman. I guess you're just not average. Or heterosexual. Not there's anything wrong with that.


Seriously, all joking aside, I generally reject the notion that service members are routinely duped into having sex with transgender prostitutes.

Funny, because I don't remember ever having to attend any type of training while I was active duty on how to tell a tranny from a real female. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that no such training topic exists in any component of the the DoD. Excuse me if this is just a bad conclusion that I'm drawing based on that assumption, but "the military is a direct reflection of society" definitely applies here. If it's happening to American civilian men, then it's no more or less likely to happen to a man in the military.


If you find yourself in a hotel room with one, you knew what you were getting into. If not, then chances are you drank way too much.

That's assuming that you can tell a tranny with 100% accuracy. Hell, if you asked me; I'd say I can. But, to be honest, I think damned near every heterosexual man would say this. But then... trannies keep getting killed by the heterosexual men that they duped into having sex with them, so... I'm not sure that most people would agree with you on that.


Either way, getting violent with a professional prostitute in a foreign country is an incredibly dumb move.

It is much wiser to just return to your ship, and not kick anyone's ass over your own stupidity.

No arguments here. But it's nice to know that you never, once in your life, ignored the potential consequences and did something that you would later regret. Man, I wish I had your life... everything must be great, having always had a clear conscious and having never been punished for anything in your life. I think we'd better call the Pope and get you canonized right now.


I'm sure PFC Pemberton will back me up on this.

Not if he doesn't get turned over to the Philippines. Ever heard of the "gay panic" defense? Every state in the US, except California, allows it.

Rusty Jones
10-19-2014, 06:04 PM
This pretty much sums up the argument.

I may be able to fight one or two of them, but if they go all Agent Smith from the Matrix with scores of them coming to help out I am screwed; and ending up in a Philippine jail or Turkish prison is not on the bucket list.

Well, we know that to be the case in the Philippines. I've been to Turkey quite a few times on port visits, but I have no clue what the general view is on homosexuality there.

However, if you stomped a tranny in Jamaica or Uganda, they'd probably give you a medal.

Stalwart
10-19-2014, 06:20 PM
Well, we know that to be the case in the Philippines. I've been to Turkey quite a few times on port visits, but I have no clue what the general view is on homosexuality there.

However, if you stomped a tranny in Jamaica or Uganda, they'd probably give you a medal.

In Turkey, homosexuality is a generally socially unacceptable thing ... but not illegal and Turkey has made some legal changes in the last few years. That said, it is illegal to be 'immoral' in public, which can impact both homosexual and heterosexual public displays of affection (something we were briefed on during my deployment to Incirlik in 2009 and a port visit in 2011). It is also against the law to even insult a Turkish National, the Turkish culture or the nation of Turkey. Based on my 1 deployment experience there, if a similar thing happened; the transvestite would likely be legally okay but shunned, and the American administering the beating would end up in jail ... and Turkish jail is ... well ... you can rent that movie.

I would imagine in this case, there is a certain amount of 'national pride' at place. Whether or not you agree or disagree with the victim's lifestyle choice, in today's environment the host nation is not likely to look favorably on a guest to their country (American service member) beating one of their citizens (in this case -- to death), in their country.

An interesting tangent would be if this happened in Bahrain or some other country in CENTCOM, where local law outlaws homosexuality. Would they also prosecute the beating victim for being a homosexual ... and does the assaulter get charged with homosexual conduct in addition to assault (double whammy)?

Absinthe Anecdote
10-19-2014, 06:45 PM
Straw man. It should have been clear that I was speaking in the context of what I believe that the average heterosexual male would do. Even Rainmaker saw that.

But in your case... you'd simply go home and shower, as if he was a woman. I guess you're just not average. Or heterosexual. Not there's anything wrong with that..

Please stop typing up posts in the vernacular of TJMAC, you are making me laugh so hard that I have a side stitch. Great impression of him eagerly using the term straw man, even at the expense of creating another straw man.




Funny, because I don't remember ever having to attend any type of training while I was active duty on how to tell a tranny from a real female. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that no such training topic exists in any component of the the DoD. Excuse me if this is just a bad conclusion that I'm drawing based on that assumption, but "the military is a direct reflection of society" definitely applies here. If it's happening to American civilian men, then it's no more or less likely to happen to a man in the military.



That's assuming that you can tell a tranny with 100% accuracy. Hell, if you asked me; I'd say I can. But, to be honest, I think damned near every heterosexual man would say this. But then... trannies keep getting killed by the heterosexual men that they duped into having sex with them, so... I'm not sure that most people would agree with you on that.

Speaking of straw men, aren't you creating a whole mess of them here? Where are all these murdered transgendered temptresses who duped heterosexual guys into having sex with them?



No arguments here. But it's nice to know that you never, once in your life, ignored the potential consequences and did something that you would later regret. Man, I wish I had your life... everything must be great, having always had a clear conscious and having never been punished for anything in your life. I think we'd better call the Pope and get you canonized right now.
.

I'll say this in complete seriousness. I've been out partying and carousing in cities all over globe. I have always had the common sense to not get sloppy drunk, and to be especially mindful if I ventured into a red-light district. The result is that I have never got into any kind of trouble.

Stop tying to vilify the trannies, they are just doing their jobs, it was the Marine who let his guard down. And after he realized he got himself in a bad situation, or more likely had a case of buyer's remorse, he reacted like a drunken baby. Yes, he had the equivalent of a temper tantrum, except a tantrum that resulted in the death of another person.

A real man would have just admitted their mistake, not lost their temper and not gotten violent.

TJMAC77SP
10-19-2014, 09:21 PM
Please stop typing up posts in the vernacular of TJMAC, you are making me laugh so hard that I have a side stitch. Great impression of him eagerly using the term straw man, even at the expense of creating another straw man.



Speaking of straw men, aren't you creating a whole mess of them here? Where are all these murdered transgendered temptresses who duped heterosexual guys into having sex with them?



I'll say this in complete seriousness. I've been out partying and carousing in cities all over globe. I have always had the common sense to not get sloppy drunk, and to be especially mindful if I ventured into a red-light district. The result is that I have never got into any kind of trouble.

Stop tying to vilify the trannies, they are just doing their jobs, it was the Marine who let his guard down. And after he realized he got himself in a bad situation, or more likely had a case of buyer's remorse, he reacted like a drunken baby. Yes, he had the equivalent of a temper tantrum, except a tantrum that resulted in the death of another person.

A real man would have just admitted their mistake, not lost their temper and not gotten violent.

Hey, can't you fight with anyone without dragging my name into it?

I ignored the first one but come on......I rarely throw the straw man accusation. Hyperbole and rhetoric are my bailiwick.

sandsjames
10-19-2014, 09:25 PM
Not sure if anyone has mentioned the simple way to avoid something like this...don't have sex with prostitutes.

Rusty Jones
10-19-2014, 10:25 PM
Please stop typing up posts in the vernacular of TJMAC, you are making me laugh so hard that I have a side stitch. Great impression of him eagerly using the term straw man, even at the expense of creating another straw man.

Speaking of straw men, aren't you creating a whole mess of them here? Where are all these murdered transgendered temptresses who duped heterosexual guys into having sex with them?

You don't know what a straw man is, apparently... and now you're engaging in a pathetic attempt to do something you said I'd do in PFC Pemberton's shoes: you're trying to restore your dignity, in this case, I after I just verbally handed you your ass. Know when to stay down, drunk man, before you get yourself hurt some more!


I'll say this in complete seriousness. I've been out partying and carousing in cities all over globe. I have always had the common sense to not get sloppy drunk, and to be especially mindful if I ventured into a red-light district. The result is that I have never got into any kind of trouble.

Shit, even Jesus was always getting trouble with law! Hell, fuck canonization, you just might actually be the true messiah!


Stop tying to vilify the trannies, they are just doing their jobs, it was the Marine who let his guard down. And after he realized he got himself in a bad situation, or more likely had a case of buyer's remorse, he reacted like a drunken baby. Yes, he had the equivalent of a temper tantrum, except a tantrum that resulted in the death of another person.

Remember when Jesus got pissed, flipped over a table, and broke out his whip? Oh not, a TRUE messiah would never do that. All hail AA! The man ALWAYS does the right thing! He's a non-sinner!


A real man would have just admitted their mistake, not lost their temper and not gotten violent.

No offense to the ladies out here when I say this, but... dude, you sound like a fucking manipulative woman with that "real man" bullshit. Go take a seat somewhere.

Rusty Jones
10-19-2014, 10:32 PM
Not sure if anyone has mentioned the simple way to avoid something like this...don't have sex with prostitutes.

I have to disagree with you on this. I'm of the same mind as TJ, in that I don't know how they get duped outside of receiving oral. But... apparently, it happens. These prostitutes in these countries (both male AND female) probably get beat up a lot anyway, and law enforcement is pretty lax (hell, many parts of Mexico, you can bribe a cop to not arrest you on small charges for an amount of money that's likely in your wallet.) That said, it likely wouldn't hurt to do a "Crocodile Dundee." Or ask to see the vaginal before making any sexual contact.

Legal prostitution maintains sexual equilibrium - which we don't have in the US. Here, women hold the cards.

Stalwart
10-19-2014, 10:59 PM
Not sure if anyone has mentioned the simple way to avoid something like this...don't have sex with prostitutes.

Well, we did skip the obvious ... :)

USN - Retired
10-20-2014, 01:09 AM
Not sure if anyone has mentioned the simple way to avoid something like this...don't have sex with prostitutes.

...and don't get married...

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/11/27/belgian-man-finds-out-his-wife-1-years-was-born-man/

sandsjames
10-20-2014, 01:11 AM
Here, women hold the cards.As they should.

USN - Retired
10-20-2014, 01:29 AM
A real man would have just admitted their mistake, not lost their temper and not gotten violent.

You sound like you speak from experience.

USN - Retired
10-20-2014, 08:42 AM
As they should.

Why?
---------

sandsjames
10-20-2014, 11:16 AM
Why?
---------Because...physically, and in so many other ways, men have the advantage over women. Also, we are extremely driven by sexual desire. Women having the thing that men want most levels the playing field. If we were the ones with the sexual desire AND in control of when we get it, things would be out of hand.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-20-2014, 11:27 AM
You sound like you speak from experience.

I've spent more time in Thailand, were the type of "lady" in this story, is far more numerous. It is a situation that is easy to avoid.

My basic point is that if you are going to party in any of the flesh pots of Asia, you damn well better keep your wits about you, and that advice holds true for any place in the world.

Getting angry a having a temper tantrum, is childish and incredibly stupid.

I don't care what type of street scam or hustle a person falls victim to. You aren't on home turf, you'd better think twice before responding with violence.

One night in Bangkok makes the tough guys tumble...

Absinthe Anecdote
10-20-2014, 11:48 AM
Shit, even Jesus was always getting trouble with law! Hell, fuck canonization, you just might actually be the true messiah!



Remember when Jesus got pissed, flipped over a table, and broke out his whip? Oh not, a TRUE messiah would never do that. All hail AA! The man ALWAYS does the right thing! He's a non-sinner!



I've got 37 followers on a ranch in Montana that are convinced I am the Messiah. They shape and polish crystals and low quality gemstones to sell at arts and crafts shows.

I'd invite you to join, but I've got you pegged as a discipline problem.

You are a wanna-be alpha male, and not worth the trouble you'd bring.

However, if you want to start your own cult, I can show you how. I do charge a flat consultancy fee of $5000 USD, plus 20 percent of the revenue your cult generates in the first year of operation.

Rusty Jones
10-20-2014, 11:52 AM
As they should.

Err... no, they shouldn't. Here in the US, men have to "behave" in order to get sex. Women don't. Look how many incorrigible women are out there, doing whatever they want, because they know they're going to have sex anyway - the fat unhygienic loudmouth at Walmart with the five little puppies that she squeezed out (all by different fathers) has no incentive to get her shit together, because someone is still going to have sex with her.

Not only does prostitution not being legal contribute to this, but the very faulty stigma of "ha hah, you paid for it because you can't get any on your own" contributes to this as well (Charlie Sheen "pays for it" for it all the time, and has probably had more "free sex" than all of us combined). So... too many men are convinced that it's more dignified to get laid by Rasputia for free, than to shell out a hundred bucks to get with Kate (these are references to the movie Norbit, for those who don't know what I'm talking about).

Legal - and socially acceptable - prostitution takes away from women that "security" of knowing that they can always get laid, no matter what. And now... women are forced to behave, just like the men, if they want to attract a man.

Imagine that!

Rusty Jones
10-20-2014, 12:06 PM
I've got 37 followers on a ranch in Montana that are convinced I am the Messiah. They shape and polish crystals and low quality gemstones to sell at arts and crafts shows.

I'd invite you to join, but I've got you pegged as a discipline problem.

You are a wanna-be alpha male, and not worth the trouble you'd bring.

However, if you want to start your own cult, I can show you how. I do charge a flat consultancy fee of $5000 USD, plus 20 percent of the revenue your cult generates in the first year of operation.

Jesus fucking Christ, man! How many more times do you have to say stupid shit like this, in order to convince yourself of the motive behind violently reacting to having been duped by a tranny that you keep presenting?

Look, if it helps you sleep at night believing yourself to be a "real man" for not smacking around a man who duped you into sex; you do what you gotta do. But not everyone is like you, AA. Not everyone has the discipline of a saint. I'm not telling you to do what I would do in that situation because, in reality, that's your decision to make and you're the one who'd have to deal with the consequences.

TJMAC77SP
10-20-2014, 02:10 PM
Jesus fucking Christ, man! How many more times do you have to say stupid shit like this, in order to convince yourself of the motive behind violently reacting to having been duped by a tranny that you keep presenting?

Look, if it helps you sleep at night believing yourself to be a "real man" for not smacking around a man who duped you into sex; you do what you gotta do. But not everyone is like you, AA. Not everyone has the discipline of a saint. I'm not telling you to do what I would do in that situation because, in reality, that's your decision to make and you're the one who'd have to deal with the consequences.

Rusty, enough with this crap. It isn't a matter of 'having the discipline of a saint'. I question any 'man' who would beat the shit out of a TG in any situation and I particularly revile any attempt to excuse beating one to death. There are so many interesting things raised by this attitude but I am not anything near a mental health professional so can't speak to them with authority but will say the thought that keeps running through my head as I read this thread is he "doth protest too much, methinks"

Let it go.

Rainmaker
10-20-2014, 02:20 PM
My comments about being a "badass" were primarily directed at your posturing on this forum over the subject.

I think the desire for your posts to appear as if they were written by, Super-fly TNT, is clouding your judgement. TJMAC might say you had another logic failure.

However, I would simply say, "Stop pretending that you are a bad ass pimp, who beats up asian trannies in hotel rooms."

Seriously, all joking aside, I generally reject the notion that service members are routinely duped into having sex with transgender prostitutes.

If you find yourself in a hotel room with one, you knew what you were getting into. If not, then chances are you drank way too much.

Either way, getting violent with a professional prostitute in a foreign country is an incredibly dumb move.

It is much wiser to just return to your ship, and not kick anyone's ass over your own stupidity.

I'm sure PFC Pemberton will back me up on this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKNenduP9Z4

Absinthe Anecdote
10-20-2014, 03:10 PM
Jesus fucking Christ, man! How many more times do you have to say stupid shit like this, in order to convince yourself of the motive behind violently reacting to having been duped by a tranny that you keep presenting?

Look, if it helps you sleep at night believing yourself to be a "real man" for not smacking around a man who duped you into sex; you do what you gotta do. But not everyone is like you, AA. Not everyone has the discipline of a saint. I'm not telling you to do what I would do in that situation because, in reality, that's your decision to make and you're the one who'd have to deal with the consequences.

You are the one who called me the messiah; I just pointed out that there are people who actually think I am, 37 of them to be exact.

I'm not really making any moral judgments either, my main point is that it is just plain dumb to get into fights with hookers.

If a person wants to go party in a third world flesh pot, then they better put on their big boy pants. A person goes into one of those places willingly, and they automatically accept the associated risks, and there are many.

Losing your cool and having temper tantrum in Subic, Angeles, Manila, Bangkok, or any other the places on the planet that deals in debauchery is just plain dumb.

As far as being duped by a transgender, that's really dumb too. If a person is so drunk or naive that they end up in a hotel room with one, when that wasn't their intention, well, that's when I say be a man about it.

Don't act like a fucking child and start hitting them.

Be a man about it, and get yourself out of there without a bunch of childish drama.

Reacting violently isn't the manly thing to do.

It is childish, and flat out dumb.

I fail to see why you are doubling down on your defense of losing your cool in a situation like that.

Rusty Jones
10-20-2014, 03:32 PM
Rusty, enough with this crap. It isn't a matter of 'having the discipline of a saint'. I question any 'man' who would beat the shit out of a TG in any situation and I particularly revile any attempt to excuse beating one to death. There are so many interesting things raised by this attitude but I am not anything near a mental health professional so can't speak to them with authority but will say the thought that keeps running through my head as I read this thread is he "doth protest too much, methinks"

Let it go.

I doubt that this is really your concern, and that protecting others from me is what you're really worried about. With the exception of Rainmaker and USN, whenever I get into it with someone, I can always expect you to chime in and protect them.

You brought up discussions of homosexuality that I apparently "protested," yet I haven't a clue what you're talking about. The only thing you might be able to dig up are the "homoerotic" posts; but I've never once bashed gays or spoke ill of them. In fact, they have my support 100%. The ONLY limits I have apply to transexuals, and it's the following:

1. I do not believe that there is a such thing as a "sex change," at least not until they figure out how to add and remove y-chromosomes. I also believe that most people hold this belief, whether they want to admit it or not - the test being whether or not one would knowingly have sex with a post-op. I've asked this question out in the open twice, and MM is the only one who passed that test. Obviously, if one can't bring themselves to do it... then one doesn't truly believe that a "sex change" has occured. Let me also state that, regardless of this belief, I still do respect the sexual identity that they've chosen for themselves; and will refer to them by pronouns of their chosen sex. At least in their presence.

2. The ONLY rights that I believe should not be had, are for pre-ops to use facilities designated for those of the opposite genetic sex. Just to clear up any ideas that I'm putting up something to hide behind, I believe post-ops should have that right. But for pre-ops, it's a safety issue. For example, put a pre-op transmale in the male dormitory; and watch what could happen it word gets out that there's a vagina in the dorm. Also, a completely heterosexual male could pose as a transwoman, in order to get into women's changing rooms, rest rooms, etc for predatory reasons.

But that's not what this discussion is about. It's about how a heterosexual man would react to being duped into having sex with a man. If you and AA are able to stay rational, good for you. We can throw all kinds of scenarios into the mix - what about something incestual?

Oh, let's discuss that... because I want you to Google the name "Scott Ruesch."

He's my brother in law. He's an SFC in the Army; and currently in custody for having sex with a minor for which he serves in a parental role. That minor? My 16 year old sister, that my older sister (she's younger than I am, but older than the younger sister obviously) got custody of after my mother's passing.

Now, he's the deal: I know my youngest sister well enough to know that she has problems. BIG problems. After my mother passed away, she got bounced from relative to relative, because no one could deal with her.

I got word from my oldest sister that Scott told the whole story, and that it began with him waking up to my youngest sister fellating him - and that's about as far as I'm gonna go with this story, because he hasn't been brought to trial yet.

But I will say this... I have a fear that my youngest sister is capable of attempting incest. My oldest sister actually had her over for the weekend while my mother was still alive, and claims that she actually tried touching her in inappropriate places.

Bottom line... THIS is why I never took her into my home. What she did to Scott... if she EVER did that to me, I would HURT her.

Is this about me restoring something, being a badass, or anything of the sort? No, it would be about me reacting exact same way that I would react if I was in PFC Pemberton's shoes.

sandsjames
10-20-2014, 04:26 PM
Err... no, they shouldn't. Here in the US, men have to "behave" in order to get sex. Women don't. Look how many incorrigible women are out there, doing whatever they want, because they know they're going to have sex anyway - the fat unhygienic loudmouth at Walmart with the five little puppies that she squeezed out (all by different fathers) has no incentive to get her shit together, because someone is still going to have sex with her.

Not only does prostitution not being legal contribute to this, but the very faulty stigma of "ha hah, you paid for it because you can't get any on your own" contributes to this as well (Charlie Sheen "pays for it" for it all the time, and has probably had more "free sex" than all of us combined). So... too many men are convinced that it's more dignified to get laid by Rasputia for free, than to shell out a hundred bucks to get with Kate (these are references to the movie Norbit, for those who don't know what I'm talking about).

Legal - and socially acceptable - prostitution takes away from women that "security" of knowing that they can always get laid, no matter what. And now... women are forced to behave, just like the men, if they want to attract a man.

Imagine that!

They get away with it because we let them. We don't have to let it be that way, but we choose to anyway. If you want to justify paying to bang chicks who have been with 100s of other guys, that's fine. But to assume that legal prostitution would change the way women act in this country when it comes to "controlling" sex doesn't make much sense.

Women who want to attract a man will do the same things they do now. They would be open to almost anything at the beginning of the relationship. Then, as time goes by, they would start weeding out the things they did at the start...just as men do with the flowers and gifts. And either way, if my wife were to cut me off I'm not going to cheat on her whether it's legal or not.

It sounds to me more like you would prefer a society where women are submissive to men, giving in anytime they want sex, or else there's justification to bang a skanky, used up hooker.

Honestly, I don't have a problem with prostitution being legal. I just don't think it would change the way women behave when it comes to sex.

USN - Retired
10-20-2014, 04:26 PM
Because...physically, and in so many other ways, men have the advantage over women. Also, we are extremely driven by sexual desire. Women having the thing that men want most levels the playing field. If we were the ones with the sexual desire AND in control of when we get it, things would be out of hand.

If you want to provide women with "control", then we should legalize and regulate prostitution. A prostitute working in a legal brothel in Nevada has "control" over whether or not she has sex. She can quit and walk away from that sex job anytime she chooses. The streetwalker prostitute in San Francisco is given no such "control" by her pimp.


Women having the thing that men want most levels the playing field.

That doesn't sound level to me.

sandsjames
10-20-2014, 04:31 PM
If you want to provide women with "control", then we should legalize and regulate prostitution. A prostitute working in a legal brothel in Nevada has "control" over whether or not she has sex. She can quit and walk away from that sex job anytime she chooses. The streetwalker prostitute in San Francisco is given no such "control" by her pimp. That's fine. Legalize it. It still doesn't change anything.




That doesn't sound level to me.It is level because men have what women want most.

USN - Retired
10-20-2014, 04:54 PM
And either way, if my wife were to cut me off I'm not going to cheat on her whether it's legal or not.

If a man's wife were to cut him off sexually, then would it be "cheating" for the man to have sex with another woman? How can you "cheat" on someone who is no longer participating in the activity? Just askin'.


Honestly, I don't have a problem with prostitution being legal. I just don't think it would change the way women behave when it comes to sex.

I disagree. Back before 1992, most US military women hated being stationed at a base in the Philippines (unless they were asexual or lesbian) because they had to be much nicer to men in order to get a boyfriend, to get a date, or even to just get laid. Those US military women definitely behaved differently because of the sexual competition from all the prostitutes.

USN - Retired
10-20-2014, 05:00 PM
No, it would be about me reacting exact same way that I would react if I was in PFC Pemberton's shoes.

But we still don't know for sure whether PFC Pemberton is heterosexual or gay. I saw his facebook picture on the news, and he looks very gay.

sandsjames
10-20-2014, 05:05 PM
If a man's wife were to cut him off sexually, then would it be "cheating" for the man to have sex with another woman? How can you "cheat" on someone who is no longer participating in the activity? Just askin'. Really? I almost feel ridiculous answering this. There are many other facets to a marriage than just sex. Sex is great, and is a big part, but the lack of it does not justify getting it somewhere else.


I disagree. Back before 1992, most US military women hated being stationed at a base in the Philippines (unless they were asexual or lesbian) because they had to be much nicer to men in order to get a boyfriend, to get a date, or even to just get laid. Those US military women definitely behaved differently because of the sexual competition from all the prostitutes.

I guess maybe we run in different circles, but I don't know any women who I would want to be with who would want to be with any guy who's going to run off banging hookers. Not any women in a normal societal demographic.

Rusty Jones
10-20-2014, 05:11 PM
It sounds to me more like you would prefer a society where women are submissive to men, giving in anytime they want sex, or else there's justification to bang a skanky, used up hooker.

Why would I need prostitution for this, when you can do that simply by cheating with a non-prostitute... which, by the way, is perfectly legal? That's not what this is about.


Honestly, I don't have a problem with prostitution being legal. I just don't think it would change the way women behave when it comes to sex.

Take the hypoethical woman I was describing in Walmart. Why is she able to get laid so much, depsite being so undesirable?

Most of us, at some point in our lives, have had sex with women that we didn't find attractive. And for a variety of reasons... including laziness to put in the work for something better, or the very very false assumption that one can have the upper hand over a woman, simply because she's less attractive, among a variety of other reasons. Using Norbit characters once more, if one could have Kate for $100 or Rasputia for free - in a society where prostitution is both legal and socially acceptable, Rasputia would never get laid - despite the fact that all the "Rasputias," ironically, are probably the women who are getting the most play in the current situation.

If Rasputia wanted to get laid, she'd have to take her fat ass to the gym, drop that attitude, and fix all the other shit that's wrong with her.

I'm not asking for women to be submissive. What I am asking for is this: as men, we have to meet a standard in order to get laid - we need to look a certain way, have a job, make a certain amount of money, drive a certain type of car, etc, etc. Women don't have to meet shit, except have a hole between their legs. Prostitution would change that.

Rusty Jones
10-20-2014, 05:13 PM
I guess maybe we run in different circles, but I don't know any women who I would want to be with who would want to be with any guy who's going to run off banging hookers. Not any women in a normal societal demographic.

She'd have actually have to do the work to KEEP him from running off with hookers. You know, kind of like the work we have to do to keep our wives away from Jody.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-20-2014, 05:17 PM
... if she EVER did that to me, I would HURT her.

Is this about me restoring something, being a badass, or anything of the sort? No, it would be about me reacting exact same way that I would react if I was in PFC Pemberton's shoes.

Okay, I get it.

You react like a violent crybaby when you don't get your way.

Thanks for clearing that up for us.

sandsjames
10-20-2014, 05:25 PM
I'm not asking for women to be submissive. What I am asking for is this: as men, we have to meet a standard in order to get laid - we need to look a certain way, have a job, make a certain amount of money, drive a certain type of car, etc, etc. Women don't have to meet shit, except have a hole between their legs. Prostitution would change that.No...what would change that is for men to quit making sex the most important thing in our lives. The women wouldn't act the way they did if it didn't work. You say that we have to meet a standard. That is very true. That's because they hold us to that standard. We don't hold them to the same standard. It's not their fault. It's ours.

Rusty Jones
10-20-2014, 05:31 PM
Okay, I get it.

You react like a violent crybaby when you don't get your way.

Thanks for clearing that up for us.

Wow, not only would you go on about your day like nothing happened if you got duped into sex with a tranny; but you'd also do the same if you were involuntarily subject to incestual relations!

Look, you can throw out names like "crybaby," or use catty tactics appealing to one's manhood, or any of that other shit... but it doesn't matter because the way I see it; becase you, sir, are the sick one.

Even more telling is that you can't just walk away from this thread knowing that other people are going to react differently than you would to the same situations... and that there isn't a damned thing you can say or do to change that. However, you can EASILY walk away from a situation where you were duped into sex with a tranny... or, even worse, involuntarily subject to an of incest; and then carry on about your day like nothing happened. You know; if you're bi and you feel that a little bit San Franciscan vagina doesn't hurt every now and then, that's one thing. But now, one is supposed to be rational if one wakes up to receiving oral from a relative? Wooooooaaaahhhhh... I know that TJMAC is our residential Vulcan and everything, but I wouldn't even expect that from him!

sandsjames
10-20-2014, 05:33 PM
She'd have actually have to do the work to KEEP him from running off with hookers. You know, kind of like the work we have to do to keep our wives away from Jody.

Here's the thing. If you're in a relationship that doesn't make you happy then get out of it. If you aren't being treated the way you feel you should be treated then get out of it. If you are going to hold a woman to the standard of giving it to you whenever you want or your going to sleep with someone else then you are never going to find someone who makes you happy.

Again, it seems to me that this isn't about sex at all. It's about power. Ultimately, there is no difference in the "end game" if you have sex with someone or rub one out in the shower. The only difference is the feeling of power, of conquering, of trying to prove to someone that you are a man.

If a woman is worried about her husband running off to hookers because she doesn't put out enough then they really aren't much of a married couple to begin with. And for a guy to do that, or even threaten to do that, is pathetic.

Rusty Jones
10-20-2014, 05:35 PM
No...what would change that is for men to quit making sex the most important thing in our lives. The women wouldn't act the way they did if it didn't work. You say that we have to meet a standard. That is very true. That's because they hold us to that standard. We don't hold them to the same standard. It's not their fault. It's ours.

Nope.

Why is that?

Because if you hold a woman to standard, she'll just run to a man that won't. And she can literally do that in a matter of seconds.

If you don't meet a woman's standard, you have to go back on the hunt. Or, do the work to meet the first woman's standard, because as long as it may take... it would probably still be less than the amount of time to find a woman whose standards you do meet.

sandsjames
10-20-2014, 05:35 PM
Wow, not only would you go on about your day like nothing happened if you got duped into sex with a tranny; but you'd also do the same if you were involuntarily subject to incestual relations!

Look, you can throw out names like "crybaby," or use catty tactics appealing to one's manhood, or any of that other shit... but it doesn't matter because the way I see it; becase you, sir, are the sick one.

Even more telling is that you can't just walk away from this thread knowing that other people are going to react differently than you would to the same situations... and that there isn't a damned thing you can say or do to change that. However, you can EASILY walk away from a situation where you were duped into sex with a tranny... or, even worse, involuntarily subject to an of incest; and then carry on about your day like nothing happened. You know; if you're bi and you feel that a little bit San Franciscan vagina doesn't hurt every now and then, that's one thing. But now, once is supposed to be rational if one wakes up to receiving oral from a relative? Wooooooaaaahhhhh... I know that TJMAC is our residential Vulcan and everything, but I wouldn't even expect that from him!

I agree with you on this one. I don't know how I'd react. For people to say that they would just walk away, without actually experiencing the situation, is crazy. Of course we all like to think we know what we'd do, but there's just no way of knowing.

sandsjames
10-20-2014, 05:38 PM
Nope.

Why is that?

Because if you hold a woman to standard, she'll just run to a man that won't. And she can literally do that in a matter of seconds. I guess it depends on what type of woman you find.


If you don't meet a woman's standard, you have to back on the hunt. Or, do the work to meet the first woman's standard, because as long as it may take... it would probably still be less than the amount of time to find a woman whose standards you do meet.That's exactly right! If you don't meet a woman who meets your standards and who's standards you don't meet, you shouldn't be together.

USN - Retired
10-20-2014, 05:50 PM
Really? I almost feel ridiculous answering this.

You din't really answer the question.


There are many other facets to a marriage than just sex.

Okay..., so if the wife doesn't want sex anymore, then why is it cheating for the hubby to have sex with another woman?


Sex is great, and is a big part, but the lack of it does not justify getting it somewhere else.

Why not?


I guess maybe we run in different circles, but I don't know any women who I would want to be with who would want to be with any guy who's going to run off banging hookers.

The women you know want to "hold all the cards", i.e. control and manipulate men.


Not any women in a normal societal demographic.

You are so incredibly naive.

Rusty Jones
10-20-2014, 05:52 PM
That's exactly right! If you don't meet a woman who meets your standards and who's standards you don't meet, you shouldn't be together.

You missed the point. You can't hold a woman to standard, because most other men will not. All you're doing by holding a woman to a standard is passing up some poon that another man is going to get. She WILL get laid, whether it's by you or not.

The same can't be said of a woman holding a man to a standard.

sandsjames
10-20-2014, 06:00 PM
You din't really answer the question.



Okay..., so if the wife doesn't want sex anymore, then why is it cheating for the hubby to have sex with another woman?



Why not? Because marriage is about being a couple. If one party isn't happy then there are plenty of ways to get out of it. No point in staying together and cheating. And to answer your question...yes...it is cheating, anytime you have sex outside of your marriage (unless there is an "agreement").




The women you know want to "hold all the cards", i.e. control and manipulate men. Nope. My wife doesn't manipulate me at all. Is she always in the mood when I am? Nope. Does that make me want to go find someone who is? Nope. It's a shame that you can't have a relationship like that. I feel sorry for you.




You are so incredibly naive.Possibly, but I'm naïve in the midst of a very happy marriage where I deal with her short comings and she deals with mine...and I know that it will be that way until one of us is no longer alive.

USN - Retired
10-20-2014, 06:01 PM
Again, it seems to me that this isn't about sex at all. It's about power. Ultimately, there is no difference in the "end game" if you have sex with someone or rub one out in the shower. The only difference is the feeling of power, of conquering, of trying to prove to someone that you are a man.

That statement of yours is so wrong. Where did you learn that nonsense? Was it in Bibile class? You appear to be stuck in a sexually frustrated Puritan loop.


If a woman is worried about her husband running off to hookers because she doesn't put out enough then they really aren't much of a married couple to begin with.

But you said...


There are many other facets to a marriage than just sex.

If there really are many other facets to a marriage than just sex, then why would it be a "big deal" or "a problem" for a married man to have sex with a hooker, especially if the man's wife will not have sex with the man anymore?

Just askin'.

sandsjames
10-20-2014, 06:02 PM
You missed the point. You can't hold a woman to standard, because most other men will not. All you're doing by holding a woman to a standard is passing up some poon that another man is going to get. She WILL get laid, whether it's by you or not.

The same can't be said of a woman holding a man to a standard.Ok...Is there an issue with "passing up some poon"? I hold my wife to a standard and she holds me to one. That standard is that we love each other and that we are committed and honest with each other. May sound faggish but that's the way it is.

sandsjames
10-20-2014, 06:04 PM
That statement of yours is so wrong. Where did you learn that nonsense? Was it in Bibile class? You appear to be stuck in a sexually frustrated Puritan loop. Nope...actually bible class tells me that it's better to drop my seed "in the belly of a whore" than "on the ground". Either way, I'm not cheating on my wife.




But you said...



If there really are many other facets to a marriage than just sex, then why would it be a "big deal" or "a problem" for a married man to have sex with a hooker, especially if the man's wife will not have sex with the man anymore?

Just askin'.Again, if he's not happy, he doesn't have to stay around. Get out. Leave!

To answer your question, it's because the biggest part of a marriage is trust. If you break that trust, whether it's cheating or otherwise, then there is no marriage.

USN - Retired
10-20-2014, 06:07 PM
I feel sorry for you.

Really? You feel sorry for me? Your wife holds all the cards in your relationship, and you feel sorry for me? (*giggle*) Okay. That's nice. Have fun with your life.

Rusty Jones
10-20-2014, 06:14 PM
Ok...Is there an issue with "passing up some poon"? I hold my wife to a standard and she holds me to one. That standard is that we love each other and that we are committed and honest with each other. May sound faggish but that's the way it is.

The issue isn't about "passing up some poon;" I simply mentioned that as a result of the way things are now.

Look, women have no incentive to actually put the work in to make herself desirable; because she is GOING to have sex, whether she puts in that work or not. You want to enforce a standard? Fine, but it does nothing to change the fact that she's going to have sex - it just won't be with you.

Legal and socially acceptable prostitution takes that guarantee of sex away from women, thus forcing them to put in that work.

If prostitution were to become illegal - and heavily enforced - in the Philipines, I guaran-fuckin-tee; a year later, you're going to see alot more unattractive women with bad attitudes, and men acting like little bitches in order to seek validation from them.

Rainmaker
10-20-2014, 06:14 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymNdfdQvdVc

If Pussy was a stock it'd be plummeting right now!

Rusty Jones
10-20-2014, 07:01 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymNdfdQvdVc

If Pussy was a stock it'd be plummeting right now!

I've only paid for sex once, and it was for the sole purpose of experiencing a threesome with two chicks (I had a "Chasing Amy" experience in an earlier relationship that prompted me to do this). The greatest thing I took away from that experience wasn't the sex itself, of the fact that it was a threesome - it was the fact that prostitution was a way of getting laid without having to deal with any bullshit from the person you're getting it from. All she cares about is the money, so she will never call you or ask you for another thing ever again. You won't ever have to lend an ear to hear her vent over stupid shit that you're not interested in, or any of that (and men actually DO this for fuck buddies, lest they lose that fuck buddy). You shell out the cash, you do your thing, and then you LEAVE.

Oh, I love my wife very much - I found her shortly after that, and she was good enough to provide me a life that's definitely better than that. But, these types of women are VERY far and few in between; and had I not found her... I'd probably seeing whores regularly (not that I'd be bitching about that; I'm just saying that - since that "experience," the Rasputias of the world would've never seen my junk EVER again).

Absinthe Anecdote
10-20-2014, 07:09 PM
Wow, not only would you go on about your day like nothing happened if you got duped into sex with a tranny; but you'd also do the same if you were involuntarily subject to incestual relations!

Look, you can throw out names like "crybaby," or use catty tactics appealing to one's manhood, or any of that other shit... but it doesn't matter because the way I see it; becase you, sir, are the sick one.

Even more telling is that you can't just walk away from this thread knowing that other people are going to react differently than you would to the same situations... and that there isn't a damned thing you can say or do to change that. However, you can EASILY walk away from a situation where you were duped into sex with a tranny... or, even worse, involuntarily subject to an of incest; and then carry on about your day like nothing happened. You know; if you're bi and you feel that a little bit San Franciscan vagina doesn't hurt every now and then, that's one thing. But now, one is supposed to be rational if one wakes up to receiving oral from a relative? Wooooooaaaahhhhh... I know that TJMAC is our residential Vulcan and everything, but I wouldn't even expect that from him!

As for the PFC Pemberton scenario, it is just plain dumb to get into fights with hookers.

If a person wants to go party in a third world flesh pot, then they better put on their big boy pants. A person goes into one of those places willingly, and they automatically accept the associated risks, and there are many.

Losing your cool and having temper tantrum in Subic, Angeles, Manila, Bangkok, or any other the places on the planet that deals in debauchery is just plain dumb.

As far as being duped by a transgender, that's really dumb too. If a person is so drunk or naive that they end up in a hotel room with one, when that wasn't their intention, well, that's when I say be a man about it.

Don't act like a fucking child and start hitting them.

Be a man about it, and get yourself out of there without a bunch of childish drama.

Reacting violently isn't the manly thing to do.

It is childish, and flat out dumb.

Now, you have concocted another scenario in which you want to use your fists.

In this one, a girl who according to your own description has some type of mental health issue, and you think the appropriate thing to do is kick her ass?

Call me a Vulcan all you want, because you are being extremely childish in both instances.

Rusty Jones
10-20-2014, 07:16 PM
As for the PFC Pemberton scenario, it is just plain dumb to get into fights with hookers.

If a person wants to go party in a third world flesh pot, then they better put on their big boy pants. A person goes into one of those places willingly, and they automatically accept the associated risks, and there are many.

Losing your cool and having temper tantrum in Subic, Angeles, Manila, Bangkok, or any other the places on the planet that deals in debauchery is just plain dumb.

As far as being duped by a transgender, that's really dumb too. If a person is so drunk or naive that they end up in a hotel room with one, when that wasn't their intention, well, that's when I say be a man about it.

Don't act like a fucking child and start hitting them.

Be a man about it, and get yourself out of there without a bunch of childish drama.

Reacting violently isn't the manly thing to do.

It is childish, and flat out dumb.

Now, you have concocted another scenario in which you want to use your fists.

In this one, a girl who according to your own description has some type of mental health issue, and you think the appropriate thing to do is kick her ass?

Call me a Vulcan all you want, because you are being extremely childish in both instances.

This is where I throw my hands up in the air and say, "fuck it." Because all you've done for the last day and a half is repeat yourself over and over and, frankly, I'm getting tired of reading your weak shit that you keep hoping that someone else is gonna buy.

Why don't you scurry on along somewhere? TJ is here to fight your battle for you, so can lay your weary head to rest.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-20-2014, 07:23 PM
This is where I throw my hands up in the air and say, "fuck it." Because all you've done for the last day and a half is repeat yourself over and over and, frankly, I'm getting tired of reading your weak shit that you keep hoping that someone else is gonna buy.

Why don't you scurry on along somewhere? TJ is here to fight your battle for you, so can lay your weary head to rest.

My posts are so weak that they brought you to your knees, interesting.

If we don't hear from you for a few days, I'm going to assume you got mad and punched out your computer monitor.

It must be expensive having a violent temper, huh?

Rusty Jones
10-20-2014, 07:30 PM
My posts are so weak that they brought you to your knees, interesting.

If we don't hear from you for a few days, I'm going to assume you got mad and punched out your computer monitor.

It must be expensive having a violent temper, huh?

Are you still here, chump? Didn't I tell you to scurry on along somewhere and let TJ take it from here?

And if you think for one second that telling someone to "be a man and don't do anything after plugging a tranny" - and saying it over and over again - is pissing anyone off, well now... that's worth me throwing my hands up in the air again! You go on ahead and beat that little chest of yours!

Absinthe Anecdote
10-20-2014, 07:53 PM
And if you think for one second that telling someone to "be a man and don't do anything after plugging a tranny"

If you think for one second that PFC Pemberton or anyone else gets forced into plugging anything you are very naive.

I know you don't believe that, and the fact that you are using it to defend your argument about getting violent, shows how flimsy your position is.

The reason I repeated that stuff about knowing how to handle yourself in a place like Subic, Angeles, or Bangkok is because you wouldn't touch it.

You wouldn't touch it because you can't refute it.

I'm right, you and Pemberton are wrong.

Next!

Measure Man
10-20-2014, 09:02 PM
If you think for one second that PFC Pemberton or anyone else gets forced into plugging anything you are very naive.

I know you don't believe that, and the fact that you are using it to defend your argument about getting violent, shows how flimsy your position is.

The reason I repeated that stuff about knowing how to handle yourself in a place like Subic, Angeles, or Bangkok is because you wouldn't touch it.

You wouldn't touch it because you can't refute it.

I'm right, you and Pemberton are wrong.

Next!

This all reminded me of a popular "joke" or "anecdote" that went around when I was in the P.I. It went something like this:

Q. What would you do if you found out the girl giving you a BJ was actually a dude?

A. Wait for her to finish and then beat his ass.

sandsjames
10-20-2014, 09:14 PM
Really? You feel sorry for me? Your wife holds all the cards in your relationship, and you feel sorry for me? (*giggle*) Okay. That's nice. Have fun with your life.How does she possibly hold all the cards? The only part of it she holds "control" of is whether or not she's in the mood for sex when I am. Not once has she withheld sex because she's pissed at me. Not once has she used it against me. And thanks. I am having fun with my life.

sandsjames
10-20-2014, 09:16 PM
Legal and socially acceptable prostitution takes that guarantee of sex away from women, thus forcing them to put in that work.

No, it doesn't. It takes the guarantee away from those who spend their time with guys who are more worried about getting off then they are about being in a relationship. Other than that, it has no benefit. As I said, if someone isn't happy with the way their partner treats them then they can get out of the relationship.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-20-2014, 10:18 PM
No, it doesn't. It takes the guarantee away from those who spend their time with guys who are more worried about getting off then they are about being in a relationship. Other than that, it has no benefit. As I said, if someone isn't happy with the way their partner treats them then they can get out of the relationship.

The notion that legalized prostitution would result in a fundamental change in female behavior on a societal level is laughable.

It is about as sophisticated a view that a 12 year old boy would come up with, and reminiscent of his middle school-esque boast of kicking a tranny's ass.

TJMAC77SP
10-20-2014, 10:55 PM
I doubt that this is really your concern, and that protecting others from me is what you're really worried about. With the exception of Rainmaker and USN, whenever I get into it with someone, I can always expect you to chime in and protect them.

You brought up discussions of homosexuality that I apparently "protested," yet I haven't a clue what you're talking about. The only thing you might be able to dig up are the "homoerotic" posts; but I've never once bashed gays or spoke ill of them. In fact, they have my support 100%. The ONLY limits I have apply to transexuals, and it's the following:

1. I do not believe that there is a such thing as a "sex change," at least not until they figure out how to add and remove y-chromosomes. I also believe that most people hold this belief, whether they want to admit it or not - the test being whether or not one would knowingly have sex with a post-op. I've asked this question out in the open twice, and MM is the only one who passed that test. Obviously, if one can't bring themselves to do it... then one doesn't truly believe that a "sex change" has occured. Let me also state that, regardless of this belief, I still do respect the sexual identity that they've chosen for themselves; and will refer to them by pronouns of their chosen sex. At least in their presence.

2. The ONLY rights that I believe should not be had, are for pre-ops to use facilities designated for those of the opposite genetic sex. Just to clear up any ideas that I'm putting up something to hide behind, I believe post-ops should have that right. But for pre-ops, it's a safety issue. For example, put a pre-op transmale in the male dormitory; and watch what could happen it word gets out that there's a vagina in the dorm. Also, a completely heterosexual male could pose as a transwoman, in order to get into women's changing rooms, rest rooms, etc for predatory reasons.

But that's not what this discussion is about. It's about how a heterosexual man would react to being duped into having sex with a man. If you and AA are able to stay rational, good for you. We can throw all kinds of scenarios into the mix - what about something incestual?

Oh, let's discuss that... because I want you to Google the name "Scott Ruesch."

He's my brother in law. He's an SFC in the Army; and currently in custody for having sex with a minor for which he serves in a parental role. That minor? My 16 year old sister, that my older sister (she's younger than I am, but older than the younger sister obviously) got custody of after my mother's passing.

Now, he's the deal: I know my youngest sister well enough to know that she has problems. BIG problems. After my mother passed away, she got bounced from relative to relative, because no one could deal with her.

I got word from my oldest sister that Scott told the whole story, and that it began with him waking up to my youngest sister fellating him - and that's about as far as I'm gonna go with this story, because he hasn't been brought to trial yet.

But I will say this... I have a fear that my youngest sister is capable of attempting incest. My oldest sister actually had her over for the weekend while my mother was still alive, and claims that she actually tried touching her in inappropriate places.

Bottom line... THIS is why I never took her into my home. What she did to Scott... if she EVER did that to me, I would HURT her.

Is this about me restoring something, being a badass, or anything of the sort? No, it would be about me reacting exact same way that I would react if I was in PFC Pemberton's shoes.

There is a real persecution complex going on here along with whatever else.

My original contribution to this thread is to refute your completely wrong assertion that whether or not Pemberton and the victim had sex would be the deciding factor in whether or not this incident is classified as a hate crime. Then I watched as you continually ranted about the justification of killing someone because they duped someone into having sex with them. This is bullshit posturing and I personally believe it covers some other factor or factors which frankly is for you to deal with.

The fact that you are now accusing me of 'protecting others from' you. How off the wall is that? I 'protect' AA from you ?!? First he doesn't need my 'protection' he is doing quite well on his own. Secondly, AA and I rarely agree on much so to intimate (or say outright) that I come to his aid is beyond your usual tripe.

As I said, just let it go.

USN - Retired
10-21-2014, 12:41 AM
Question: Should our government hand PFC Pemberton over to the Philippine government?

I say yes.

sandsjames
10-21-2014, 02:19 AM
Question: Should our government hand PFC Pemberton over to the Philippine government?

I say yes.

Yes. We need to get away from saving the asses of our guys being stupid. Takes away much of the deterrent. I wouldn't do it in every case, depending on the agreements we have with the country. But I would do it in the cases where the crime is something that's also considered a crime in our country.

sandsjames
10-21-2014, 02:22 AM
The notion that legalized prostitution would result in a fundamental change in female behavior on a societal level is laughable.

It is about as sophisticated a view that a 12 year old boy would come up with, and reminiscent of his middle school-esque boast of kicking a tranny's ass.

What it sounds like is an argument from someone who got shot down. There was an episode of Law and Order SVU recently that was based on a case that happened in California a few months back. The kid got pissed off because girls didn't give him the attention they gave the other guys. He ended up killing a bunch of women because of it. It's pathetic, really, that so many guys feel entitled to what women have to offer.

TJMAC77SP
10-21-2014, 03:11 AM
Yes. We need to get away from saving the asses of our guys being stupid. Takes away much of the deterrent. I wouldn't do it in every case, depending on the agreements we have with the country. But I would do it in the cases where the crime is something that's also considered a crime in our country.

It isn't always a case of saving their asses (in the sense of no consequences). The judicial systems of some countries are so far from fair and impartial as to be non-judicial at all. I don't know specifically about the Philippines (although the level of corruption is epic and complete).

I would imagine even if he isn't turned over he will face murder charges under the UCMJ (as NCIS is investigating).

Absinthe Anecdote
10-21-2014, 03:50 AM
What it sounds like is an argument from someone who got shot down. There was an episode of Law and Order SVU recently that was based on a case that happened in California a few months back. The kid got pissed off because girls didn't give him the attention they gave the other guys. He ended up killing a bunch of women because of it. It's pathetic, really, that so many guys feel entitled to what women have to offer.

More like an excerpt from the manifesto of The He-Man Woman Haters and Tranny Bashers Club.

Rusty Jones
10-21-2014, 11:35 AM
If you think for one second that PFC Pemberton or anyone else gets forced into plugging anything you are very naive.

Not "forced," chump - duped! DUPED! How many times have I used the word "dupe" in reference to this? Good gawd, man!


I know you don't believe that, and the fact that you are using it to defend your argument about getting violent, shows how flimsy your position is.

The reason I repeated that stuff about knowing how to handle yourself in a place like Subic, Angeles, or Bangkok is because you wouldn't touch it.

How many times have I stated that we don't always take the time to be rational and do the right thing? Come on, chump, how many times?


You wouldn't touch it because you can't refute it.

Dude, take a seat a somewhere. I addressed it many times, and if I haven't lately... it's because it's getting old and tired. I'll grant you that you have TJ's number, and I envy you for that. But you ain't got mine. Let's keep that understood.


I'm right, you and Pemberton are wrong.

Next!

Maybe... but like I said - more times than I care to count - we don't always do the right things.

Rusty Jones
10-21-2014, 11:37 AM
No, it doesn't. It takes the guarantee away from those who spend their time with guys who are more worried about getting off then they are about being in a relationship. Other than that, it has no benefit. As I said, if someone isn't happy with the way their partner treats them then they can get out of the relationship.

Dude, did you marry your high school sweetheart or something? You seem to lack any real adult dating experience.

Rusty Jones
10-21-2014, 11:47 AM
There is a real persecution complex going on here along with whatever else.

My original contribution to this thread is to refute your completely wrong assertion that whether or not Pemberton and the victim had sex would be the deciding factor in whether or not this incident is classified as a hate crime.

And so far, it's three to one: MM, SJ, and I versus you.


Then I watched as you continually ranted about the justification of killing someone because they duped someone into having sex with them. This is bullshit posturing and I personally believe it covers some other factor or factors which frankly is for you to deal with.

Straw man. I never tried to justify it. Like I said many times before, this isn't a time where everyone would get rational and think before acting... in other words, we don't always do the right thing.


The fact that you are now accusing me of 'protecting others from' you. How off the wall is that? I 'protect' AA from you ?!? First he doesn't need my 'protection' he is doing quite well on his own.

Bullshit; he keeps screaming for attention on things no one wants to talk about, and getting mad at people for making different choices than he would. Maybe you agree with what he's saying... but he's my bitch right now.


Secondly, AA and I rarely agree on much so to intimate (or say outright) that I come to his aid is beyond your usual tripe.

As I said, just let it go.

The way you're protecting AA right now is very reminiscent of the way you used to protect WJ5.

Rusty Jones
10-21-2014, 11:50 AM
The notion that legalized prostitution would result in a fundamental change in female behavior on a societal level is laughable.

It is about as sophisticated a view that a 12 year old boy would come up with, and reminiscent of his middle school-esque boast of kicking a tranny's ass.


More like an excerpt from the manifesto of The He-Man Woman Haters and Tranny Bashers Club.

Looks like SOMEBODY needs to switch to decaf! Maybe even smoke a bowl or two!

Rusty Jones
10-21-2014, 11:55 AM
What it sounds like is an argument from someone who got shot down. There was an episode of Law and Order SVU recently that was based on a case that happened in California a few months back. The kid got pissed off because girls didn't give him the attention they gave the other guys. He ended up killing a bunch of women because of it. It's pathetic, really, that so many guys feel entitled to what women have to offer.

Did you read Elliot Rodgers manifesto? He's never been shot down, because he's never actually TRIED to approach a girl. He kept trying to get girls to approach HIM.

He also would only go for blonde model looking types, and would never adjust his standard a notch or two for the sake of getting his dick wet.

Also... he had money. LOT'S of it. Had he spent the money on some ass, look at the lives that would have been saved!

sandsjames
10-21-2014, 12:19 PM
Dude, did you marry your high school sweetheart or something? You seem to lack any real adult dating experience.Nope...didn't marry my high school sweetheart. And if "real adult dating experience" leads to justifying cheating because she doesn't put out enough then I think that people should start avoiding that experience.

Rusty Jones
10-21-2014, 12:22 PM
Nope...didn't marry my high school sweetheart. And if "real adult dating experience" leads to justifying cheating because she doesn't put out enough then I think that people should start avoiding that experience.

Dude, who said anything about "cheating?" I mentioned this, because you don't appear to have had to weed through anything to find your wife.

sandsjames
10-21-2014, 12:25 PM
Did you read Elliot Rodgers manifesto? He's never been shot down, because he's never actually TRIED to approach a girl. He kept trying to get girls to approach HIM.

He also would only go for blonde model looking types, and would never adjust his standard a notch or two for the sake of getting his dick wet.

Also... he had money. LOT'S of it. Had he spent the money on some ass, look at the lives that would have been saved!Nope, never read it. Did see the documentary online, though. Either way, if it hadn't been women that set him off, it would have been something else. Crazy is crazy. Even if he would have had a girlfriend, he would have ended up killing her at some point. It had nothing to do with getting ass, any more than most rapes have anything to do with sex. Both cases were about power and entitlement, which is quite common in guys who think that women should worship them.

sandsjames
10-21-2014, 12:26 PM
Dude, who said anything about "cheating?" I mentioned this, because you don't appear to have had to weed through anything to find your wife.

Even if I didn't have to weed through anything, how is that relevant? I weeded through plenty, and those who didn't meet my standards were let go. Now, I could have tried to shape them to want I wanted and expected, told them that if they didn't start acting how I thought they should that I would leave, banged other women to prove the point, etc. But it's much easier for all parties if you just get out of the relationships that aren't what you're looking for.

Rusty Jones
10-21-2014, 12:27 PM
Nope, never read it. Did see the documentary online, though. Either way, if it hadn't been women that set him off, it would have been something else. Crazy is crazy. Even if he would have had a girlfriend, he would have ended up killing her at some point. It had nothing to do with getting ass, any more than most rapes have anything to do with sex. Both cases were about power and entitlement, which is quite common in guys who think that women should worship them.

You got any peer reviewed literature to back this up?

Rusty Jones
10-21-2014, 12:30 PM
Even if I didn't have to weed through anything, how is that relevant? I weeded through plenty, and those who didn't meet my standards were let go. Now, I could have tried to shape them to want I wanted and expected, told them that if they didn't start acting how I thought they should that I would leave, banged other women to prove the point, etc. But it's much easier for all parties if you just get out of the relationships that aren't what you're looking for.

Your post in #141 explains everything. Apparently, you believe that everything that everyone does - and will do - are predetermined, and are unaffected by external factors. That's why I don't think we're really going to get anywhere with each other on this.

sandsjames
10-21-2014, 12:48 PM
You got any peer reviewed literature to back this up?Nope. Do you have any to show that if Elliot had paid for hookers that he wouldn't have killed anyone?

sandsjames
10-21-2014, 12:50 PM
Your post in #141 explains everything. Apparently, you believe that everything that everyone does - and will do - are predetermined, and are unaffected by external factors. Now that's about the biggest stretch I've ever heard. I'd love to know how you came to this conclusion.

That's why I don't think we're really going to get anywhere with each other on this.No. The reason we aren't going anywhere on this is our different levels of respect for women and are different thoughts on men not being able to control sexual urges, laying the responsibility on the women to ensure that guys treat them well.

Rusty Jones
10-21-2014, 01:20 PM
Nope. Do you have any to show that if Elliot had paid for hookers that he wouldn't have killed anyone?

Yep. He stated numerous times throughout his manifesto that sex would have prevented it. He set the date quite a few times and kept delaying it, in order to allow more time get laid before carrying it out.

Sex, to be honest, really isn't that serious. It's not worth killing for, and it certainly isn't worth dying for. Had he actually had sex - whether it was through paying for a prostitute, or simply by adjusting his standards a bit so that he might find a chick who might actually want him... he would have realized this.

Now... tell me where you draw your conclusion that destiny dictates that someone will engage in a mass shooting, regardless of any external factors.

Rusty Jones
10-21-2014, 01:24 PM
Now that's about the biggest stretch I've ever heard. I'd love to know how you came to this conclusion.

Read post #141 again. You said that he was going to go on that mass shooting whether he was getting laid or not, because something else would have prompted him if not getting laid hadn't.


No. The reason we aren't going anywhere on this is our different levels of respect for women and are different thoughts on men not being able to control sexual urges, laying the responsibility on the women to ensure that guys treat them well.

No, not that at all... because I don't think we disagree on either of these. I just haven't touched the "men controlling their urges" side of the discussion yet, because I'm too busy disagreeing with you on the prostitution thing.

By the way, you should have paid close attention to what USN-Retired said about women in the military not wanting to be stationed in the Philipines, because of how Filipino prostitutes affected their interactions with men in the military. Read that again, and let it sink in.

sandsjames
10-21-2014, 03:42 PM
Read post #141 again. You said that he was going to go on that mass shooting whether he was getting laid or not, because something else would have prompted him if not getting laid hadn't. Because he was a fucking psycho...not because it was predetermined.




No, not that at all... because I don't think we disagree on either of these. I just haven't touched the "men controlling their urges" side of the discussion yet, because I'm too busy disagreeing with you on the prostitution thing.

By the way, you should have paid close attention to what USN-Retired said about women in the military not wanting to be stationed in the Philipines, because of how Filipino prostitutes affected their interactions with men in the military. Read that again, and let it sink in.I did comment on it...I said that military life doesn't equate to normal society. If it did, the desert queen wouldn't exist.

Measure Man
10-21-2014, 03:57 PM
My original contribution to this thread is to refute your completely wrong assertion that whether or not Pemberton and the victim had sex would be the deciding factor in whether or not this incident is classified as a hate crime.



And so far, it's three to one: MM, SJ, and I versus you.

Seems to me this "original contribution" just changed from whether or not the sex was relevant information to whether or not it was "the deciding factor"

I still think the information is relevant...but, I wouldn't go so far as to say it is the deciding factor.

There is quite a bit of rooom for nuance in between those two points.

Rainmaker
10-21-2014, 04:39 PM
What it sounds like is an argument from someone who got shot down. There was an episode of Law and Order SVU recently that was based on a case that happened in California a few months back. The kid got pissed off because girls didn't give him the attention they gave the other guys. He ended up killing a bunch of women because of it. It's pathetic, really, that so many guys feel entitled to what women have to offer.

I'd say most guys at one time or another have gotten pissed off over a girl. Difference is they don't end up killing a bunch of women over it. As for Law and order. Rainmaker's surprised you watch it, as it's just more Liberal Bullshit pushing the anti-male Luciferian agenda.

sandsjames
10-21-2014, 04:54 PM
I'd say most guys at one time or another have gotten pissed off over a girl. Difference is they don't end up killing a bunch of women over it. As for Law and order. Rainmaker's surprised you watch it, as it's just more Liberal Bullshit pushing the anti-male Luciferian agenda.

You should try watching things that are fitted to your specific agenda. it will help broaden, and strengthen, your views.

Also, it's just TV. I also watch shows that have people exceeding the speed limit, zombies eating people, and alien races trying to take over the world. I don't condone any of those actions. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy a good story.

TJMAC77SP
10-21-2014, 04:59 PM
And so far, it's three to one: MM, SJ, and I versus you.
Really? That’s how you view this thread? Interesting


Straw man. Inever tried to justify it. Like I said many times before, this isn't a time where everyone would get rational and think before acting... in other words, we don't always do the right thing.

So, someone kills someone and you offer that their rage accounts for this and you would likely do the same thing. If justification isn’t the correct word what is?


Bullshit; he keeps screaming for attention on things no one wants to talk about, and getting mad at people for making different choices than he would. Maybe you agree withwhat he's saying... but he's my bitch right now.

He’s your bitch ?!?! Do you actually read what you write? Since AA’s ‘got my number’ does that mean I am your bitch as well? I fail to see why you would characterize his posts as 'screaming'. Well in truth I know why but I fail to see why you would rationally characterize them as such.


The way you're protecting AA right now is very reminiscent of the way you used to protect WJ5.
Well, I am sure in the reality you live in that makes perfect sense. In mine (which I would venture a guess is alittle closer to that of most people) I am not protecting anyone but amactually doing what I always do….in this case pointing out the complete absurdity of your posts.

TJMAC77SP
10-21-2014, 05:10 PM
Seems to me this "original contribution" just changed from whether or not the sex was relevant information to whether or not it was "the deciding factor"

I still think the information is relevant...but, I wouldn't go so far as to say it is the deciding factor.

There is quite a bit of rooom for nuance in between those two points.

Sorry....as one who values accuracy in wording I should have quoted the original false premise. "the determining factor"

Wait, is there a difference between "the determining factor" and "the deciding factor"? Is there nuance?


…………I think that that's going to be the determining factor inwhether or not this will be considered a hate crime. If sexual contact occured,then it's not a hate crime since the motive was being decieved into sexualrelations with a man. If it did not occur, then they've got a good case for ahate crime.

I'm under the impression that it did occur, but they're trying to hint towardit having not occurred in order to make it look like a legit hate crime.

BTW: I stand by my original post. And..............you never answered my question. Do you agree with RJ that whether they had sex will be "the determining factor" in whether a hate crime occurred?

sandsjames
10-21-2014, 05:19 PM
BTW: I stand by my original post. And..............you never answered my question. Do you agree with RJ that whether they had sex will be "the determining factor" in whether a hate crime occurred?I think it will. If they had sex, then he found out, it's a pretty degrading thing that would easily warrant a violent response. If he found out before they had sex, then it's much easier to play the "hate" game. Either way, proving hate, IMO, in this case seems very difficult. Without a past history of remarks and actions that witnesses can testify too, what proof is there that he hates LGBT? I guess we'll see what happens, but a hate crime seems pretty hard to prove.

TJMAC77SP
10-21-2014, 05:25 PM
I think it will. If they had sex, then he found out, it's a pretty degrading thing that would easily warrant a violent response. If he found out before they had sex, then it's much easier to play the "hate" game. Either way, proving hate, IMO, in this case seems very difficult. Without a past history of remarks and actions that witnesses can testify too, what proof is there that he hates LGBT? I guess we'll see what happens, but a hate crime seems pretty hard to prove.

I have no issue with arguing the merits of whether or not it is a hate crime.

So your premise is that if there was no sex there is no way it was a hate crime? I just don't see that. Whether they had sex is merely part of a very complicated scenario.

I still don't know how you get duped into having sex with a TG outside of what I have already mentioned (receiving oral). No one has explained that to me.............

Measure Man
10-21-2014, 05:33 PM
BTW: I stand by my original post. And..............you never answered my question. Do you agree with RJ that whether they had sex will be "the determining factor" in whether a hate crime occurred?

I don't think it is "the determining factor" or "the deciding factor"...my reply was to you stating it was "irrelevant"...to which I replied that I believed it was certainly relevant information in deciding the reason for the killing.


I don't think whether they had sex of any kind or not is relevant.


I am saying that the mere fact of whether they had sex or not is irrelevant.

I think it is one piece of evidence toward motive if one were trying to prove hate crime...actually one that would be more beneficial to the defense to shed doubt on the hate crime aspect. Pretty much any personal interactions/relationship between the accused and the victim would probably be relevant information towards that...and certainly, I think, an intimate relationship would help raise doubts that this was a hate crime.

That said, I don't think it goes so far as to say, if they had sex, this is a run-of-the-mill murder and if they didnt it's a hate crime....so it's not "the deciding factor" or "the determining factor"...past history of animosity towards transgenders, or previous statements about a desire to injure/kill them would probably be much more of a determining factor, and I think the prosecution needs something like that to prove a hate crime...If there is NOTHING else, then simply not having sex withe person does not make this a hate crime...there has to be some indication that person hated transgenders, gays or something that the victim is that is protected.

In short, I don't see any way this is THE determining factor, or deciding factor...and I did not agree with that point, I agreed that it was relevant information (or disagreed with your statement that it was irrelevant).

Measure Man
10-21-2014, 05:41 PM
So your premise is that if there was no sex there is no way it was a hate crime?

Just the opposite...what we're saying is if they DID have sex, it is more likely it is NOT a hate crime.

So, the defense is in a pickle...does the prosecution have cut and dry evidence that this guy killed the victim? Or is that in doubt?

If they had sex...it is more likely he did the killing (most murders are committed by someone close to the other person)...but less likely he did it as a hate crime...

I guess it depends on what they are trying to prove as to whether or not they make this a point in the trial...are they trying to raise doubt that he killed her, or conceding he killed her and trying to avoid the hate crime attachment?

Measure Man
10-21-2014, 05:55 PM
I still don't know how you get duped into having sex with a TG outside of what I have already mentioned (receiving oral). No one has explained that to me.............

You're probably going to have to ask someone that had this happen...I doubt you'll get an answer here.

sandsjames
10-21-2014, 05:55 PM
I have no issue with arguing the merits of whether or not it is a hate crime.

So your premise is that if there was no sex there is no way it was a hate crime? I just don't see that. Whether they had sex is merely part of a very complicated scenario.

I still don't know how you get duped into having sex with a TG outside of what I have already mentioned (receiving oral). No one has explained that to me.............

I don't see how you get duped either...but it happened. And, as MM said, it's opposite. Hate crime possible only if there was no sex...and that's still a stretch. If he found out after the fact then it's easy enough to argue the same as one would argue for a husband walking in on his wife cheating and killing both of them.

Let's flip the script. Let's say a homosexual hires a what he believes is a tranny, has sex, then finds out that it's actually a woman. He kills the woman. Is it a hate crime? Can it even be argued as a hate crime? I don't see how.

Measure Man
10-21-2014, 06:02 PM
Let's say a homosexual hires a what he believes is a tranny, has sex, then finds out that it's actually a woman. He kills the woman. Is it a hate crime?

Hell, no, it's a Jerry Springer Trifecta!

JER-RY, JER-RY, JER-RY

TJMAC77SP
10-21-2014, 06:08 PM
I don't think it is "the determining factor" or "the deciding factor"...my reply was to you stating it was "irrelevant"...to which I replied that I believed it was certainly relevant information in deciding the reason for the killing.





I think it is one piece of evidence toward motive if one were trying to prove hate crime...actually one that would be more beneficial to the defense to shed doubt on the hate crime aspect. Pretty much any personal interactions/relationship between the accused and the victim would probably be relevant information towards that...and certainly, I think, an intimate relationship would help raise doubts that this was a hate crime.

That said, I don't think it goes so far as to say, if they had sex, this is a run-of-the-mill murder and if they didnt it's a hate crime....so it's not "the deciding factor" or "the determining factor"...past history of animosity towards transgenders, or previous statements about a desire to injure/kill them would probably be much more of a determining factor, and I think the prosecution needs something like that to prove a hate crime...If there is NOTHING else, then simply not having sex withe person does not make this a hate crime...there has to be some indication that person hated transgenders, gays or something that the victim is that is protected.

In short, I don't see any way this is THE determining factor, or deciding factor...and I did not agree with that point, I agreed that it was relevant information (or disagreed with your statement that it was irrelevant).

I suppose it is misleading to say that whether they had sex is completely irrelevant because it can add to the mental state of the accused but the elements of a hate crime do not include whether they had sex. The biased motivation would have had to be present and it seems the argument that sex alone gave birth to this motivation is weak.

My assertion of the irrelevance was directly related to RJ’s preposterous comments that sex was the sole factor in classifying the crime. Like this one….(I don’t remember your commenton this)


If they had had sex, then PFC Pemberton killed his victim becausehe was deceived into having sex with someone that he otherwise would not havehad sex with. Not a hate crime.

If they did not have sex, then PFC Pemberton killed his victim because of theirsexual orientation. That would be a hate crime.

I could think of more than one scenario where there was sex and it wasn’t a hate crime. More than one where there was no sex whatsoever and it wasn’t a hate crime. Same is true for the reverse.


There is this huge hang up over the sex (still waiting for the 'duped' explanation) andI think this is more a prurient fascination than whether or not this was a hatecrime. This murder could have occurred with or without sex and still been a hate crime (or not).

On a side note (and not directed at you) I have been fascinated somewhat by some of the comments on this thread. Liberal stances seem to have been abandoned. That isn’t an admonishment just a curious observation. Stories like this produce visceral responses borne of instinct (whether naturalof induced by culture).

TJMAC77SP
10-21-2014, 06:16 PM
Just the opposite...what we're saying is if they DID have sex, it is more likely it is NOT a hate crime.

So, the defense is in a pickle...does the prosecution have cut and dry evidence that this guy killed the victim? Or is that in doubt?

If they had sex...it is more likely he did the killing (most murders are committed by someone close to the other person)...but less likely he did it as a hate crime...

I guess it depends on what they are trying to prove as to whether or not they make this a point in the trial...are they trying to raise doubt that he killed her, or conceding he killed her and trying to avoid the hate crime attachment?

But I can think of an instance where the argument could be made for a hate crime and sex occurred.............Of course this would depend on your definition of sex. If you agree with Charles Robb and Bill Clinton then no, it won't work.

They are making out heavily and go up to the hotel room. The victim performs oral sex on the accused and as things progress she disrobes and he discovers the true nature of her gender. He flips out and kills her in a rage because of his avowed anti-gay beliefs.

Just don't think sex is THE factor here.

TJMAC77SP
10-21-2014, 06:17 PM
You're probably going to have to ask someone that had this happen...I doubt you'll get an answer here.

Ok. Since it has been raised several times I was hoping someone could explain.

TJMAC77SP
10-21-2014, 06:22 PM
I don't see how you get duped either...but it happened. And, as MM said, it's opposite. Hate crime possible only if there was no sex...and that's still a stretch. If he found out after the fact then it's easy enough to argue the same as one would argue for a husband walking in on his wife cheating and killing both of them.

Let's flip the script. Let's say a homosexual hires a what he believes is a tranny, has sex, then finds out that it's actually a woman. He kills the woman. Is it a hate crime? Can it even be argued as a hate crime? I don't see how.

First of all, we don't know 'it happened' (that he got duped). That was mentioned here.

How do you find out it isn't a tranny AFTER the sex. The evidence is fairly plain (even to a drunk).

Here is another theory (and could still be argued as a hate crime, albeit with difficulty). The accused is a latent homosexual and knows he is engaged with a TG. They have sex and afterwards in a fit of self-hatred he kills her.

This scenario is not far fetched and unfortunately happens too often.

Measure Man
10-21-2014, 06:30 PM
My assertion of the irrelevance was directly related to RJ’s preposterous comments that sex was the sole factor in classifying the crime.

Right...my most recent foray into this thread, this morning...was to clarify that my original reply was your statement that this information was not relevant.

So, RJs assertion that the three 'others' agreed with him is not entirely correct.

As mentioned, there is a lot of room inbetween his point and your reply...I'm somewhere in there.


There is this huge hang up over the sex (still waiting for the 'duped' explanation) andI think this is more a prurient fascination than whether or not this was a hatecrime. This murder could have occurred with or without sex and still been a hate crime (or not).

On a side note (and not directed at you) I have been fascinated somewhat by some of the comments on this thread. Liberal stances seem to have been abandoned. That isn’t an admonishment just a curious observation. Stories like this produce visceral responses borne of instinct (whether naturalof induced by culture).

I think any liberal sensitivities I might have are intact.

Rainmaker
10-21-2014, 06:34 PM
You should try watching things that are fitted to your specific agenda. it will help broaden, and strengthen, your views.

Also, it's just TV. I also watch shows that have people exceeding the speed limit, zombies eating people, and alien races trying to take over the world. I don't condone any of those actions. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy a good story.

I have watched it. That's how I know what it's about.. Even though we got rid of the Television Programming Device in our house in 2004, you can't get away from it, it's everywhere.

We didn't originally get rid of cable for any moral reason. It was more of a financial decision. I Just got tired of paying the bill and my sons at the time were still at home in school and we were always busy and hardly watched it anyway.

It wasn't until after my 2nd son moved out in 2011, when I had Verizon installed that I had the epiphany that it was in-fact, nothing more than mind control from the dark occult. Immediately called them and had them come get their shit out of my castle.

I still have 3 girls at home and for the life of me can't understand why any parent would expose the developing minds of their children to the constant unfiltered brainwashing that passes as entertainment in this sick society.

Rainmaker
10-21-2014, 06:44 PM
But I can think of an instance where the argument could be made for a hate crime and sex occurred.............Of course this would depend on your definition of sex. If you agree with Charles Robb and Bill Clinton then no, it won't work.

They are making out heavily and go up to the hotel room. The victim performs oral sex on the accused and as things progress she disrobes and he discovers the true nature of her gender. He flips out and kills her in a rage because of his avowed anti-gay beliefs.

Just don't think sex is THE factor here.

This whole notion of Orwellian hate crime legislation and media constantly bashing society over the head with this "Hater" stuff is all a scam that is designed just to keep us divided into groups so, that the victims can be exploited for a political agenda and the lawyers can keep fleecing us. The whole concept of Uncle Sam telling us which groups are acceptable to hate and which ones aren't and therefore need special protecting is un-American.

Measure Man
10-21-2014, 06:46 PM
Did you read Elliot Rodgers manifesto? He's never been shot down, because he's never actually TRIED to approach a girl. He kept trying to get girls to approach HIM.

He also would only go for blonde model looking types, and would never adjust his standard a notch or two for the sake of getting his dick wet.

Also... he had money. LOT'S of it. Had he spent the money on some ass, look at the lives that would have been saved!


Nope, never read it. Did see the documentary online, though. Either way, if it hadn't been women that set him off, it would have been something else. Crazy is crazy. Even if he would have had a girlfriend, he would have ended up killing her at some point. It had nothing to do with getting ass, any more than most rapes have anything to do with sex. Both cases were about power and entitlement, which is quite common in guys who think that women should worship them.

I tend to agree with SandS here...that dude was mentally ill. Mental illness is not cured by them getting what they want. That incident was pretty near where I live, not that this fact gives me any particular expertise, but there was a lot of coverage about it.

No peer reviewed literature to present, sorry.

TJMAC77SP
10-21-2014, 06:50 PM
I think any liberal sensitivities I might have are intact.

Hence why I said the comment wasn't directed at you. Just didn't want to start a new post.

TJMAC77SP
10-21-2014, 06:54 PM
This whole notion of Orwellian hate crime legislation and media constantly bashing society over the head with this "Hater" stuff is all a scam that is designed just to keep us divided into groups so, that the victims can be exploited for a political agenda and the lawyers can keep fleecing us. The whole concept of Uncle Sam telling us which groups are acceptable to hate and which ones aren't and therefore need special protecting is un-American.

Well, I suppose I remain unconvinced in the necessity of having a completely separate charge of a hate crime. I do believe it is right to be able to identify these types of actions as aggravating factors to be considered at sentencing. So called 'special circumstances' as they are called in many states.

I also think that of late the term has been slung around far too often at least by politicians and the press. Often times when it is completely unwarranted.

Rainmaker
10-21-2014, 08:42 PM
First of all, we don't know 'it happened' (that he got duped). That was mentioned here.

How do you find out it isn't a tranny AFTER the sex. The evidence is fairly plain (even to a drunk).

Here is another theory (and could still be argued as a hate crime, albeit with difficulty). The accused is a latent homosexual and knows he is engaged with a TG. They have sex and afterwards in a fit of self-hatred he kills her.

This scenario is not far fetched and unfortunately happens too often.

If a brother goes to take a piss and notice his date left the seat up, you prolly gots a problem. Gnomesayin?

sandsjames
10-21-2014, 09:10 PM
First of all, we don't know 'it happened' (that he got duped). That was mentioned here. Ok...let's see how small and irrelevant of a comment you can argue with.


How do you find out it isn't a tranny AFTER the sex. The evidence is fairly plain (even to a drunk). Don't know. Never been in that situation.


Here is another theory (and could still be argued as a hate crime, albeit with difficulty). The accused is a latent homosexual and knows he is engaged with a TG. They have sex and afterwards in a fit of self-hatred he kills her.

This scenario is not far fetched and unfortunately happens too often.Or...or...what if...maybe he was an NCIS undercover agent...and he found out that this tranny was an old girlfriend/boyfriend...and he couldn't deal with the fact that his cover could be blown...so he offed her/him. Or, what if.....

sandsjames
10-21-2014, 09:11 PM
I have watched it. That's how I know what it's about.. Even though we got rid of the Television Programming Device in our house in 2004, you can't get away from it, it's everywhere.

We didn't originally get rid of cable for any moral reason. It was more of a financial decision. I Just got tired of paying the bill and my sons at the time were still at home in school and we were always busy and hardly watched it anyway.

It wasn't until after my 2nd son moved out in 2011, when I had Verizon installed that I had the epiphany that it was in-fact, nothing more than mind control from the dark occult. Immediately called them and had them come get their shit out of my castle.

I still have 3 girls at home and for the life of me can't understand why any parent would expose the developing minds of their children to the constant unfiltered brainwashing that passes as entertainment in this sick society.That's cool...minds definitely can't develop if they are only exposed to one side of the argument by a biased parent. That will "develop" them for sure.

TJMAC77SP
10-21-2014, 09:32 PM
Ok...let's see how small and irrelevant of a comment you can argue with.
Why are you getting so bent out of shape? I merely pointed out that outside of this thread there has been no mention of him being 'duped' or 'deceived' into having sex. You said ‘it happened’ in response to my question of how such a thing is possible. So again, why are you pissed? Jesus!

Don't know. Never been in that situation.

This is your answer………..I don’t know because I have never been in the situation? Yes we know you are completely heterosexual so wouldn’t know how these things work based on first hand experience (Damn this thread has people a mite touchy). I haven’t been in the situation either but I am willing to go out of a limb and ask….How the fuck is it possible to have sex with a guy (with all his God-givenequipment) and think you are having sex with a woman?


Or...or...what if...maybe he was an NCIS undercover agent...and he found out that this tranny was an old girlfriend/boyfriend...and he couldn't deal with the fact that his cover could be blown...so he offed her/him. Or, what if.....
It isn’t a matter of ‘what ifs”? My scenario was in answer to your ‘flipping the script’. Is there a limit on hypothetical situations allowed to be offered? You asked questions which I attempted to answer with my own hypothetical. Tell me what you wanted me to say.

TJMAC77SP
10-21-2014, 09:36 PM
If a brother goes to take a piss and notice his date left the seat up, you prolly gots a problem. Gnomesayin?

And............if you count more than two testicles in the mix..............

USN - Retired
10-21-2014, 11:40 PM
I'll repeat my question -

Should our government hand PFC Pemberton over to the Philippine government?

I say yes.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-22-2014, 02:24 AM
I'll repeat my question -

Should our government hand PFC Pemberton over to the Philippine government?

I say yes.

No, we should keep Pemberton and give them Rusty, Sandsjames and TJMAC's Flintstone avatar.

I would hand over TJMAC, but since he has been protecting me, he can just send his avatar.

Rusty Jones
10-22-2014, 11:09 AM
I really don't understand why TJ keeps asking how one gets duped outside of receiving oral. I don't know, I don't think anyone here knows... but what we all do know (and TJ knows this, whether he wants to acknowledge or not) is that it DOES happen. Why does anyone need to know "how" it happened?

Absinthe Anecdote
10-22-2014, 11:21 AM
I really don't understand why TJ keeps asking how one gets duped outside of receiving oral. I don't know, I don't think anyone here knows... but what we all do know (and TJ knows this, whether he wants to acknowledge or not) is that it DOES happen. Why does anyone need to know "how" it happened?

With that kind of thinking, you'll soon be telling us that it doesn't matter how you know god is real. You just KNOW that he is.

Rusty Jones
10-22-2014, 11:30 AM
I'll repeat my question -

Should our government hand PFC Pemberton over to the Philippine government?

I say yes.

You and MM probably know more about the Filipino justice system than most of us; but from what I've read, there's a lot of concern over whether or not he'd get a fair trial there. I mean, if he's guilty of the crime... then let what's going to happen, happen. But I do believe that he should only be turned over IF we know for sure that he's going to get a fair trial.

Rainmaker
10-22-2014, 02:39 PM
You and MM probably know more about the Filipino justice system than most of us; but from what I've read, there's a lot of concern over whether or not he'd get a fair trial there. I mean, if he's guilty of the crime... then let what's going to happen, happen. But I do believe that he should only be turned over IF we know for sure that he's going to get a fair trial.

Rainmaker don't know any thing about the facts in this case. But, allegedly the PFC is homophobic and his victim is a member of the protected class and therefore, she/he's inherently good. so antiquated concepts like "getting a fair trial" shouldn't matter. He must be sacrificed to the Diversity God on the alter of political correctness.

Rusty Jones
10-22-2014, 02:59 PM
Rainmaker don't know any thing about the facts in this case. But, allegedly the PFC is homophobic and his victim is a member of the protected class and therefore, she/he's inherently good. so antiquated concepts like "getting a fair trial" shouldn't matter. He must be sacrificed to the Diversity God on the alter of political correctness.

Kind of like the Matthew Shepherd case.

One thing that they don't tell you is that Aaron McKinney was the only real perp in this case, and that Russell Henderson was actually beaten by McKinney and forced by gunpoint to help with the murder, after he spoke up and tried to talk him out of it.

Also, Aaron McKinney was known to be bisexual himself; and many who knew both Shepherd and McKinney claim that the murder was likely over drugs and money (McKinney was known to sell drugs to Shepherd).

Apparently, the story of Shepherd coming onto them was made up in a failed attempt to get a lighter sentence than it would've been over a drug deal.

But, nevertheless, what happened in the court happened...

TJMAC77SP
10-22-2014, 03:08 PM
I really don't understand why TJ keeps asking how one gets duped outside of receiving oral. I don't know, I don't think anyone here knows... but what we all do know (and TJ knows this, whether he wants to acknowledge or not) is that it DOES happen. Why does anyone need to know "how" it happened?

You really don't understand?

Let's make it clearer. The premise that he was duped or deceived into having sex with the victim is completely stupid and inconceivable. I don't understand why anyone would posit that he was duped or deceived into having sex with a TG and expect it to be believed.

Rusty Jones
10-22-2014, 03:26 PM
You really don't understand?

Let's make it clearer. The premise that he was duped or deceived into having sex with the victim is completely stupid and inconceivable. I don't understand why anyone would posit that he was duped or deceived into having sex with a TG and expect it to be believed.

That's just you. And you appear to be alone on that.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-22-2014, 04:19 PM
That's just you. And you appear to be alone on that.

I'm not automatically buying into that either.

I might accept that he got duped into the hotel room, but not that he had anal intercourse without noticing that he was with a tranny.

Besides, the idea that he was duped started with you back on page 2 of this thread. I haven't seen a news report stating that. Please provide a link to a story if you have one.

In addition, the news report I did see, stated that the victim was found nude. So that tells me that he had plenty of opportunity to get the hell out of there if he wasn't interested in having sex. The two used condoms also go against your theory.

If we are going to just run with random theories, I think a dispute over money is way more plausible than being duped.

Rusty Jones
10-22-2014, 04:42 PM
I'm not automatically buying into that either.

I might accept that he got duped into the hotel room, but not that he had anal intercourse without noticing that he was with a tranny.

Besides, the idea that he was duped started with you back on page 2 of this thread. I haven't seen a news report stating that. Please provide a link to a story if you have one.

Please provide a quote where I made the assertion that he was duped. I only presented it as a possibility when discussing whether or not this could be a hate crime. Then, the discussion of that possibility took off. Again, I presented it as a possibility - I never asserted this to be the case.


In addition, the news report I did see, stated that the victim was found nude. So that tells me that he had plenty of opportunity to get the hell out of there if he wasn't interested in having sex. The two used condoms also go against your theory.

You're way too late. I've already discussed the two condoms with USN-Retired and CYBERFX. Also, the fact that the victim was nude means nothing unless you know WHEN the victim was nude. For all we know, it could've happened AFTER the sex or even AFTER the murder.


If we are going to just run with random theories, I think a dispute over money is way more plausible than being duped.

Go ahead. That's been mentioned many times in this thread before, but the problem with that argument is that the possibility of a hate crime would be totally ruled out. Maybe it's just me, but I could see someone killing a tranny over duping a heterosexual man into gay sex far more than I could see someone killing a tranny over any amount of cash that's likely to be found in an E2's wallet.

Rusty Jones
10-22-2014, 05:00 PM
Oh, and while we're discussing money... what's the going rate for a prostitute in the Philipines? Here in the US, $100 is about average... and I know that in Nicauragua (from the controversial video that went viral two or three years ago of a father taking his son to lose his virginity to a prostitute), the going rate appears to be roughly equal 5 USD (though, admittedly, the prostitute in the video was kind of homely looking, so a decent one might cost a little more)

What is it in the Philipines? I'm pretty sure it has to be much cheaper than it was 20 years ago, with the demand from US military personal having been almost completely vanquished since then.

If we throw and arbitrary number out there, between 5 and 100, I just can't see this happening. Not saying it can't happen, I just can't see it.

Measure Man
10-22-2014, 05:01 PM
Filipino justice system

Kind of an oxymoron right there.

If he is guilty...it's hard to say which would serve him better. Go to court martial where he's likely to get a fair trial, but still end up in Leavenworth for life...preferable to life in a Filipino prison...OR, go into a corrupt system where his or his parents' money might buy an unfair trial in his favor...or something lighter. That will be more difficult now that it has been publicised, a lot of political clout to be gained for making an example of him.

Measure Man
10-22-2014, 05:12 PM
Oh, and while we're discussing money... what's the going rate for a prostitute in the Philipines? Here in the US, $100 is about average... and I know that in Nicauragua (from the controversial video that went viral two or three years ago of a father taking his son to lose his virginity to a prostitute), the going rate appears to be roughly equal 5 USD (though, admittedly, the prostitute in the video was kind of homely looking, so a decent one might cost a little more)

What is it in the Philipines? I'm pretty sure it has to be much cheaper than it was 20 years ago, with the demand from US military personal having been almost completely vanquished since then.

Last time I was there was 2005...from what i heard, the Going rate for an all-nighter was about $20. You can get coupons for up to 25% off, also. Tips are customary.

I've heard.


If we throw and arbitrary number out there, between 5 and 100, I just can't see this happening. Not saying it can't happen, I just can't see it.

You would be kind of surprised how the "money is for free" thing loses perspective. I've seen field grade officers arguing red-faced with a local over 25 cents. It's not the money, people hate feeling like they're being made a chump and getting ripped off...even if it's Monopoly money, no one wants to be thought a fool.

In an evironment like that we're there are a lot of little scams going around to separate you from $1...you would be very surprised at how people act...wanting to feel they are all "street-wise" and stuff, and after awhile you just assume every financial transaction involves some kind of scam that you have to figure out to get the "fair" deal...(cool video game maybe?).

To put it another way...arguments and disagreements over money are VERY common, from 25 cent jeepney rides, to haggling for an hour fora $3 pair of flip-flops...to buying a piece of furniture that is priced triple what they'll accept...and it doesn't have to be a lot of money, it's the idea of not wanting to be played for a fool.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-22-2014, 05:13 PM
Please provide a quote where I made the assertion that he was duped. I only presented it as a possibility when discussing whether or not this could be a hate crime. Then, the discussion of that possibility took off. Again, I presented it as a possibility - I never asserted this to be the case.

Here are two instances of you trying to strong arm your theory as fact.


I'm a liberal guy and everything, but my liberalism has limits and this is one of them.

I'm of the belief that there's no such thing as a sex change. Not unless they've figured out how to add and remove Y-chromosomes. If you have a Y-chromosome, you're a man. If not, you're a woman. No ifs, ands, or buts.

However, I don't let that conflict with my belief that one's gender identity should be respected.

If it was up to me, there would be laws requiring transgender disclose their genetic sex to their partner before having sex.

Until then, it never ceases to amaze me how transgenders never seem to learn - if you don't disclose your genetic sex, you're gonna get yourself killed! How many more times does this have to happen for them to get it through their heads?


What we do know so far, from the information that's been released, is that the sex of the victim is what led to the murder - not money. We also know that they did go the hotel for sex (but not whether or not they actually had sex), as the name of the hotel that they checked into is even mentioned.

I'm actually curious as to how many of you here could actually find out after the fact you just got duped into having sex with a man (and the man is still in the room when you figured this out), and then go on about your day like nothing happened.

There hasn't been anything released about the motive in the articles that I've read. Why are you saying, "what we do know" ?

You are the one who turned this into a hate crime debate. Go back and read the thread.




You're way too late. I've already discussed the two condoms with USN-Retired and CYBERFX. Also, the fact that the victim was nude means nothing unless you know WHEN the victim was nude. For all we know, it could've happened AFTER the sex or even AFTER the murder.



Go ahead. That's been mentioned many times in this thread before, but the problem with that argument is that the possibility of a hate crime would be totally ruled out. Maybe it's just me, but I could see someone killing a tranny over duping a heterosexual man into gay sex far more than I could see someone killing a tranny over any amount of cash that's likely to be found in an E2's wallet.

Prostitutes are always trying to get extra money from GIs beyond the agreeded upon price. A squabble between a drunk Marine and a prostitute over several hundred pesos isn't far-fetched.

Rusty Jones
10-22-2014, 05:44 PM
Here are two instances of you trying to strong arm your theory as fact.

I get it. You NEED me to state this as fact, so that you can have something refute. So someone can join you in your little game that no one wants to play. You're barking up the wrong tree, bud.


There hasn't been anything released about the motive in the articles that I've read. Why are you saying, "what we do know" ?

You are the one who turned this into a hate crime debate. Go back and read the thread.

No... I simply brought up an article that mentioned the possibility of a hate crime, and the fact that the victim is a transexual is all over these articles. The articles leave two possibilities open - PFC Pemberton either killed Laude for being a tranny, or for duping him into gay sex. In both of those possibilities, Laude's gender was a factor. Again, that's what's all over these articles - NOT money.




Prostitutes are always trying to get extra money from GIs beyond the agreeded upon price. A squabble between a drunk Marine and a prostitute over several hundred pesos isn't far-fetched.



You would be kind of surprised how the "money is for free" thing loses perspective. I've seen field grade officers arguing red-faced with a local over 25 cents. It's not the money, people hate feeling like they're being made a chump and getting ripped off...even if it's Monopoly money, no one wants to be thought a fool.

In an evironment like that we're there are a lot of little scams going around to separate you from $1...you would be very surprised at how people act...wanting to feel they are all "street-wise" and stuff, and after awhile you just assume every financial transaction involves some kind of scam that you have to figure out to get the "fair" deal...(cool video game maybe?).

To put it another way...arguments and disagreements over money are VERY common, from 25 cent jeepney rides, to haggling for an hour fora $3 pair of flip-flops...to buying a piece of furniture that is priced triple what they'll accept...and it doesn't have to be a lot of money, it's the idea of not wanting to be played for a fool.

To address both of you at once; the reason I still can't see money as the motivator is because... although what MM is true, I would need to see some NON-PROSTITUTE scenarios where someone with a steady job (like being in the military) is killing someone over $20, or other petty amount of money where they thought they were being played for a fool. That's the only way I could believe that this is about the money, and not about whatever was wrong with the "service."

Measure Man
10-22-2014, 06:04 PM
To address both of you at once; the reason I still can't see money as the motivator is because... although what MM is true, I would need to see some NON-PROSTITUTE scenarios where someone with a steady job (like being in the military) is killing someone over $20, or other petty amount of money where they thought they were being played for a fool. That's the only way I could believe that this is about the money, and not about whatever was wrong with the "service."

Fair enough...we are all doing a lot of speculating here. I can't claim to have ever seen one of these money arguments result in a killing.

Heck, there is, I think, at least a better than fair chance that the victim was not even a prosititute. They supposedly met in a "disco bar"...which, from my experience, is a term more used for a regular "club" rather than a place that has working girls. One could meet nice girls there that were not prostitutes...the transgenders were often seen in the discos, usually in large packs that stayed to an area amongst themselves, to my recollection...but, it is conceivable that this was a "pick-up, hook-up" and not a pay for play scenario at all.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-22-2014, 06:56 PM
In dance clubs there are plenty of prostitutes, they are called free-lancers, as opposed to those who work out of a bar or brothel.

Silly arguments over a small amounts of money, turn extremely violent all the time. Especially when one or more of the participants have been drinking.

Measure Man
10-22-2014, 07:02 PM
In dance clubs there are plenty of prostitutes, they are called free-lancers, as opposed to those who work out of a bar or brothel.

I'll buy that (no pun intended)...but, there are also plenty that are not prostitutes.

CYBERFX1024
10-22-2014, 07:07 PM
Oh, and while we're discussing money... what's the going rate for a prostitute in the Philipines? Here in the US, $100 is about average... and I know that in Nicauragua (from the controversial video that went viral two or three years ago of a father taking his son to lose his virginity to a prostitute), the going rate appears to be roughly equal 5 USD (though, admittedly, the prostitute in the video was kind of homely looking, so a decent one might cost a little more)
What is it in the Philipines? I'm pretty sure it has to be much cheaper than it was 20 years ago, with the demand from US military personal having been almost completely vanquished since then.
If we throw and arbitrary number out there, between 5 and 100, I just can't see this happening. Not saying it can't happen, I just can't see it.

It all depends on where you go in the Philippines. If you stay within Metro Manila then you are looking at $50, but if you go out to the provinces then it is more like $10. If I go to my wife's province in Mindanao I have women literally throw themselves at me, so it would be free. :) The cost of living has gone up but still the people get paid like sh*t. I had a guy do a full day worth of work on my property getting the coconuts down, and all we paid him was about $12/500 pesos. He was more than happy with that.

Rusty Jones
10-22-2014, 07:31 PM
If I go to my wife's province in Mindanao I have women literally throw themselves at me, so it would be free. :)

Were they prostitutes, or women who just wanted to have sex?

I've been places where I've similar experiences with prostitutes, but they'd still charge me some "token" amount just so they can say they charged something. I once had a Dominican hooker in Saint Thomas offer to drop them panties for $2.

USN - Retired
10-22-2014, 08:01 PM
but still end up in Leavenworth for life...

If he goes to Leavenworth, then the US taxpayers will have to pay for his meals, medical care and accommodations at Leavenworth. Let him rot in a filipino prison.


...preferable to life in a Filipino prison....

It will certainly be no fun for him, but that's his problem. If PFC Pemberton didn't want to spend decades of his life in a filipino prison, then he shouldn't have killed the tranny.

Rusty Jones
10-23-2014, 01:57 PM
http://www.interaksyon.com/article/97765/laude-was-not-a-sex-worker-pemberton-didnt-know-victim-was-not-a-real-woman---witnesses

http://www.philstar.com/headlines/2014/10/23/1383423/pemberton-did-not-know-laude-was-transgender

Welp, there we have it ladies and gentlemen! PFC Pemberton WAS duped, and Laude was NOT a prostitute! Don't ask me how he was duped, because I don't know and I don't care. The only thing that matters is that he WAS duped.

TJMAC77SP
10-23-2014, 02:16 PM
http://www.interaksyon.com/article/97765/laude-was-not-a-sex-worker-pemberton-didnt-know-victim-was-not-a-real-woman---witnesses

http://www.philstar.com/headlines/2014/10/23/1383423/pemberton-did-not-know-laude-was-transgender

Welp, there we have it ladies and gentlemen! PFC Pemberton WAS duped, and Laude was NOT a prostitute! Don't ask me how he was duped, because I don't know and I don't care. The only thing that matters is that he WAS duped.

Pathetic for several reasons but enough to say that all this states is that he thought the TG was a real woman (putting aside the dubious certainty of what Pemberton 'knew' and didn't 'know') up to some point in the privacy of the room at which point it would become pretty obvious because you just cannot be 'duped' or 'deceived' into having sex with a TG.

So it would appear that we don't 'have it'.

Rusty Jones
10-23-2014, 02:17 PM
Pathetic for several reasons but enough to say that all this states is that he thought the TG was a real woman (putting aside the dubious certainty of what Pemberton 'knew' and didn't 'know') up to some point in the privacy of the room at which point it would become pretty obvious because you just cannot be 'duped' or 'deceived' into having sex with a TG.

So it would appear that we don't 'have it'.

Cognitive dissonance noted, but your refusal to believe that one can be duped doesn't mean that it can't happen.

TJMAC77SP
10-23-2014, 02:31 PM
Cognitive dissonance noted, but your refusal to believe that one can be duped doesn't mean that it can't happen.

I completely agree with you that there is some serious cognitive dissonance going on here. Unfortunately not as you are intimating.

You have done nothing to prove that Pemberton was 'duped' or 'deceived' into having sex. All the articles do is cite the testimony of a fellow TG which states what Pemberton believed. Putting aside that fact that Barbie couldn't have possibly known what Pemberton believed or didn't believe this testimony provides no information on what occurred after Pemberton and the victim were left alone.

Rusty Jones
10-23-2014, 02:35 PM
I completely agree with you that there is some serious cognitive dissonance going on here. Unfortunately not as you are intimating.

You have done nothing to prove that Pemberton was 'duped' or 'deceived' into having sex. All the articles do is cite the testimony of a fellow TG which states what Pemberton believed. Putting aside that fact that Barbie couldn't have possibly known what Pemberton believed or didn't believe this testimony provides no information on what occurred after Pemberton and the victim were left alone.

The cognitive dissonance is going on here, because you're not going to concede that he was duped until one explains to you how it happens. Even then...

TJMAC77SP
10-23-2014, 03:23 PM
The cognitive dissonance is going on here, because you're not going to concede that he was duped until one explains to you how it happens. Even then...

Rusty, believe it or not I got what you were saying, or attempting to say. Evidently you didn't get what I was saying.

I realize you may be operating on all the cylinders God gave you but surely you can understand the two articles, which is actually one story from two Pilipino sources, does nothing to prove anything. It doesn't even prove the assertions it raises but that aside, it doesn't come close to proving your assertion, based on zero evidence, that Pemberton had sex with the victim without realizing that she was a he.

sandsjames
10-23-2014, 04:07 PM
Putting aside that fact that Barbie couldn't have possibly known what Pemberton believed or didn't believe this testimony provides no information on what occurred after Pemberton and the victim were left alone.Nor can you.

TJMAC77SP
10-23-2014, 04:09 PM
Nor can you.

I don't remember making any assertions as to what anyone in this case thought.

sandsjames
10-23-2014, 04:21 PM
I don't remember making any assertions as to what anyone in this case thought.

Really? You said that Barbie couldn't have possibly known what Pemberton believed...but you also say that Pemberton couldn't have been "duped"...which means that you are saying you know what Pemberton knew or believed.

TJMAC77SP
10-23-2014, 04:26 PM
Really? You said that Barbie couldn't have possibly known what Pemberton believed...but you also say that Pemberton couldn't have been "duped"...which means that you are saying you know what Pemberton knew or believed.

Getting pretty desperate here SJ. I don't believe that Pemberton (or anyone) could be duped into having sex with a man and think they are a woman. I guess if you really want to characterize that as me attempting to state what Pemberton was thinking than I am guilty. Aren't you stating that you knew what Pemberton was thinking by saying he was duped. That 'it happened'?

Do you see this as exactly what I was stating the 'witness' in the articles couldn't know?

Rusty Jones
10-23-2014, 04:53 PM
I'll throw one possibility out there - and man, this REALLY wasn't something I wanted to get into, but here goes - the articles DO state that Pemberton was drunk. So, we've got that part down.

Over the last year or so, as I've been listening to the radio, I've been hearing songs where the lyrics mention "pull your panties to the side" and other words to that affect.

I suppose it's possible that they agreed to anal sex through that method or something similar. I don't know what a man's junk looks like buldging threw a pair of women's underwear; maybe it looks like a woman with a big mound... I don't know. But even if it does look a little "off," one would have to factor in that he was drunk at the time.

The other possibility... and I didn't mention it, because I knew TJ would find it ridiculous... but there ARE claims that this works... is that the tranny simply pulled their pants down just far enough to keep the junk covered. Bear in mind, once again, that Pemberton was drunk and it may not have clicked that this was suspicious behavior.

sandsjames
10-23-2014, 05:35 PM
Getting pretty desperate here SJ. I don't believe that Pemberton (or anyone) could be duped into having sex with a man and think they are a woman. I guess if you really want to characterize that as me attempting to state what Pemberton was thinking than I am guilty. Aren't you stating that you knew what Pemberton was thinking by saying he was duped. That 'it happened'?

Do you see this as exactly what I was stating the 'witness' in the articles couldn't know?I don't know whether he knew it was a man or not. That's what I'm saying. And there's no way that any one of us can know...except for you...who seem to be pretty firm with that stance that it's not possible. But you are stating that he MUST have known because it's impossible to get fooled in this situation. So you are stating that he MUST have believed it was a man to begin with.

TJMAC77SP
10-23-2014, 05:44 PM
I don't know whether he knew it was a man or not. That's what I'm saying. And there's no way that any one of us can know...except for you...who seem to be pretty firm with that stance that it's not possible. But you are stating that he MUST have known because it's impossible to get fooled in this situation. So you are stating that he MUST have believed it was a man to begin with.

I just can't figure it out.

First let me clarify what I believe is a salient point. I never said at any time that Pemberton "believed it was a man to begin with" What I have said that there comes a point, call it The Crying Game moment, when all is revealed so to speak. Rusty has now offered an explanation but he is right that I am not buying it. Of course that is my opinion based on my own sexual history. Perhaps a more varied pallet of experience would help me see the situation as it is apparently being described on this thread. I just can't fathom how this could have happened unnoticed, twice it the reporting is to be believed.

So I guess what you are saying is the you think that the witness stating that Pemberton 'knew' the victim was really a man and my disbelief at the logistics of such a sex act where the true gender of the recipient is not know is the same. Ok.

sandsjames
10-23-2014, 07:51 PM
So I guess what you are saying is the you think that the witness stating that Pemberton 'knew' the victim was really a man and my disbelief at the logistics of such a sex act where the true gender of the recipient is not know is the same. Ok.Right...if one guy "knew" and one guy is speculating based on personal experience, that is not the same.

TJMAC77SP
10-23-2014, 08:48 PM
Right...if one guy "knew" and one guy is speculating based on personal experience, that is not the same.

More accurately put that one guy observed behavior in a bar and came to a conclusion that he 'knew' that Pemberton thought the victim was a woman without actually stating that.

The other side is middle aged guy who actually passed biology and is intimately familiar with the genitalia of men and women just can't figure out how you can anally sodomize a guy and think its' a girl (obviously the opposite can't be true because then the whole argument never leaves the ground).

If those two things look the same to you well then..............ok.

EDIT: I misstated what the witness said to the PI Senate. He stated Pemberton thought the victim was a woman not a man.

sandsjames
10-23-2014, 09:19 PM
If those two things look the same to you well then..............ok.No, they DON'T look the same. That's what I'm saying. One guy had first hand knowledge. You are making assumptions based on your personal background. Those are definitely NOT the same thing.

Maybe the sex was anal, and the tranny had a very small package which wasn't visible. Or maybe he did know. What I'm saying is that we can't possibly know whether he was aware or not.

TJMAC77SP
10-23-2014, 09:39 PM
No, they DON'T look the same. That's what I'm saying. One guy had first hand knowledge. You are making assumptions based on your personal background. Those are definitely NOT the same thing.

Maybe the sex was anal, and the tranny had a very small package which wasn't visible. Or maybe he did know. What I'm saying is that we can't possibly know whether he was aware or not.

Well, given the reported presence of two condoms what other kind of sex are you purporting took place? Of course it could still be oral which fits into the only accepted scenario of sex (which I previously mentioned) where Pemberton didn't know it was a man until too late. Twice though seems to stretch that.

His first hand knowledge seems to have simply been he was present in the bar. No statements were made to expand on how he 'knew' for sure Pemberton 'thought the victim was a woman. This is just another supposition in this case. Information needed to support other suppositions put forth on this thread. It doesn't make it true.

Of course I don't 'know' with an absolute certainty that Pemberton didn't have sex with the victim thinking it was a woman. It is my opinion, which I have been clear about from the beginning. Trouble is that if you are going to make an assertion then it seems it should be reasonable and fit with common sense and knowledge.

Many believe that the WTC towers were not brought down by the aircraft crashing into them. I think that is total hooey. Of course there is no way I could know this for a certainty. My opinion is based on common sense and knowledge. For example the amount of explosives necessary and the necessity of placing those explosive covertly renders this conspiracy theory utter nonsense.

I really don't want to start a WTC discussion here and only offer the example of the difference between saying something because it fits an agenda (for example, you are a good friend of the victim and also of the same sexual persuasion. Perhaps you need this to be true to support a previously stated assertion equally without proof or common sense) and saying something that seems on its face to make sense given known facts about, in this case, biology.

We certainly have this one wrapped around the axle.....................

Rusty Jones
10-23-2014, 10:49 PM
They did have anal sex. Fecal matter was found on one of the used condoms.

USN - Retired
10-23-2014, 11:08 PM
Will PFC Pemberton plead guilty and throw himself on the mercy of the court or will he try to fight the charges?

Why is it taking the US government so long to decide what to do with PFC Pemberton?, i.e. hand him over to the Philippine government or send him back to the US for a court martial...

Rusty Jones
10-23-2014, 11:54 PM
Will PFC Pemberton plead guilty and throw himself on the mercy of the court or will he try to fight the charges?

That depends on whether or not there's a plea bargain. I imagine that they could go after second degree murder, but offer him voluntary manslaughter, if they take the "duped" thing into consideration. I imagine that he would take that offer, rather than taking the big risk.


Why is it taking the US government so long to decide what to do with PFC Pemberton?, i.e. hand him over to the Philippine government or send him back to the US for a court martial...

Times like this, I wish we had a JAG officer on MTF.

TJMAC77SP
10-24-2014, 12:26 AM
That depends on whether or not there's a plea bargain. I imagine that they could go after second degree murder, but offer him voluntary manslaughter, if they take the "duped" thing into consideration. I imagine that he would take that offer, rather than taking the big risk.

I hope it goes to trial..........I look forward to the 'duped' explanation.

MikeKerriii
10-25-2014, 11:30 PM
I hope it goes to trial..........I look forward to the 'duped' explanation.

For the young mans sake I hope they don't try the duped explanation, there are not enough rednecks in the PI for that to work

It takes a redneck to belive that being duped justifies murder or even assault

TJMAC77SP
10-26-2014, 12:16 AM
For the young mans sake I hope they don't try the duped explanation, there are not enough rednecks in the PI for that to work

It takes a redneck to belive that being duped justifies murder or even assault

I think Rusty would take great exception to being called a redneck.

Rusty Jones
10-26-2014, 06:03 PM
It still has not yet ceased to amaze me how many men here who likely do not consider themselves "gay" can simply leave the room and go home like it's just another day, right after finding out that their dicks were just in a man's anus.

If not being able to keep my composure in that situation makes me a "redneck," then hand me some Confederate Flags and I'll post them on my front lawn.

USN - Retired
10-27-2014, 02:35 AM
I find it hard to believe that a heterosexual man could have sex with someone like Jennifer/Jeffery and not realize before the sex that the "she" is really a "he". How exactly would Jennifer/Jeffery hide his junk?

I still suspect that PFC Pemberton is gay, and he knew that Jennifer was really Jeffrey before they had sex. Perhaps PFC Pemberton had some kind of sex and murder fetish. Another possibility is that PFC Pemberton and Jennifer/Jeffrey got into an argument about money after the sex.

Take a look at PFC Pemberton's picture:

http://www.philstar.com/headlines/2014/10/16/1380629/murder-complaint-filed-vs-us-marine

That pose is very effeminate, especially for a Marine. He is obviously gay.

I am still waiting for PFC Pemberton to entertain us with his side of the story.

sandsjames
10-27-2014, 10:22 AM
I find it hard to believe that a heterosexual man could have sex with someone like Jennifer/Jeffery and not realize before the sex that the "she" is really a "he". How exactly would Jennifer/Jeffery hide his junk?

I still suspect that PFC Pemberton is gay, and he knew that Jennifer was really Jeffrey before they had sex. Perhaps PFC Pemberton had some kind of sex and murder fetish. Another possibility is that PFC Pemberton and Jennifer/Jeffrey got into an argument about money after the sex.

Take a look at PFC Pemberton's picture:

http://www.philstar.com/headlines/2014/10/16/1380629/murder-complaint-filed-vs-us-marine

That pose is very effeminate, especially for a Marine. He is obviously gay.

I am still waiting for PFC Pemberton to entertain us with his side of the story.

The fact that he took a selfie shows that he's gay. Whether or not he's a homosexual, it's very possible. Just as anything else is still possible in this case.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-27-2014, 01:48 PM
http://www.interaksyon.com/article/97765/laude-was-not-a-sex-worker-pemberton-didnt-know-victim-was-not-a-real-woman---witnesses

http://www.philstar.com/headlines/2014/10/23/1383423/pemberton-did-not-know-laude-was-transgender

Welp, there we have it ladies and gentlemen! PFC Pemberton WAS duped, and Laude was NOT a prostitute! Don't ask me how he was duped, because I don't know and I don't care. The only thing that matters is that he WAS duped.

I'm not buying the claims in either of those stories.

Especially the claim that the victim wasn't a prostitute. The victim's sister is making that claim, while the police claim he was a prostitute.

Plus, they essentially described a "short time" hotel, meaning a hotel used specifically for prostitution.

Still not buying the duped story either, it sounds highly unlikely.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-27-2014, 02:12 PM
It still has not yet ceased to amaze me how many men here who likely do not consider themselves "gay" can simply leave the room and go home like it's just another day, right after finding out that their dicks were just in a man's anus.

If not being able to keep my composure in that situation makes me a "redneck," then hand me some Confederate Flags and I'll post them on my front lawn.

Reacting violently doesn't make you a redneck, it makes you childish.

If a person wants to go get drunk and run with hookers in Subic, they are taking on a number of risks.

Let's say, your little theory of being duped is correct.

How in the hell does losing your temper and beating the ladyboy to death solve anything?

It is childish to the point of being moronic. Even if one just handed out a beating, it is a dumb, asshole of a response.

It isn't accepting responsibility for your own actions that got you into that hotel room.

It is showing zero street smarts, and acting like a fucking baby in my book.

Rusty Jones
10-27-2014, 02:13 PM
I'm not buying the claims in either of those stories.

Especially the claim that the victim wasn't a prostitute. The victim's sister is making that claim, while the police claim he was a prostitute.

Plus, they essentially described a "short time" hotel, meaning a hotel used specifically for prostitution.

Still not buying the duped story either, it sounds highly unlikely.

Cognitive dissonance...

Absinthe Anecdote
10-27-2014, 02:51 PM
Cognitive dissonance...

Wow! I'm so impressed that you parroted a psychology 101 term that you heard TJMAC use.

PS

He got his degree online from one of those schools like Phoenix or Strayer. You might want to find another person to mimic.

Rusty Jones
10-27-2014, 02:55 PM
Wow! I'm so impressed that you parroted a psychology 101 term that you heard TJMAC use.

PS

He got his degree online from one of those schools like Phoenix or Strayer. You might want to find another person to mimic.

Here's another: red herring

TJMAC77SP
10-27-2014, 03:01 PM
Wow! I'm so impressed that you parroted a psychology 101 term that you heard TJMAC use.

PS

He got his degree online from one of those schools like Phoenix or Strayer. You might want to find another person to mimic.

Hey, hey................first of all, he used the term (Google is our friend) and I didn't get my degree at either of those institutions but interesting to know how much I am under your skin.

TJMAC77SP
10-27-2014, 03:02 PM
Here's another: red herring

I generally don't use that term either.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-27-2014, 03:28 PM
I generally don't use that term either.

What if a transgender straw man lured Rusty into a hotel room with a red herring, and then shoved a mackerel up his ass, causing him to have a hyperbolic episode of cognitive dissonance?

Would Rusty be justified reacting like one of those flying monkeys from the Wizard of Oz? Would you understand his violence if he stomped the stuffing out of the ladyboy straw man?

What if he ripped her legs off, and threw them over there? What if he then crammed her little dog, Toto, into a picnic basket and flew off to the wicked witch's castle?

Would that be ok?

Rusty Jones
10-27-2014, 03:34 PM
What if a transgender straw man lured Rusty into a hotel room with a red herring, and then shoved a mackerel up his ass, causing him to have a hyperbolic episode of cognitive dissonance?

Would Rusty be justified reacting like one of those flying monkeys from the Wizard of Oz? Would you understand his violence if he stomped the stuffing out of the ladyboy straw man?

What if he ripped her legs off, and threw them over there? What if he then crammed her little dog, Toto, into a picnic basket and flew off to the wicked witch's castle?

Would that be ok?

Look, you've been throwing fits like a toddler throughout this whole thread; and then later have been desperately - DESPERATELY - trying to get the upper hand, and it's STILL not working out for you. So how about you do yourself a favor - take your L, and quit making an ass out of yourself by posting non-sequitors that make sense to no one but you.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-27-2014, 03:39 PM
Look, you've been throwing fits like a toddler throughout this whole thread; and then later have been desperately - DESPERATELY - trying to get the upper hand, and it's STILL not working out for you. So how about you do yourself a favor - take your L, and quit making an ass out of yourself by posting non-sequitors that make sense to no one but you.

I can see my temper tantrum argument got the best of you.

You have to admit that blowing up violently at a transgender prostitute because of your own stupidity is wrong.

TJMAC77SP
10-27-2014, 03:42 PM
What if a transgender straw man lured Rusty into a hotel room with a red herring, and then shoved a mackerel up his ass, causing him to have a hyperbolic episode of cognitive dissonance?

Would Rusty be justified reacting like one of those flying monkeys from the Wizard of Oz? Would you understand his violence if he stomped the stuffing out of the ladyboy straw man?

What if he ripped her legs off, and threw them over there? What if he then crammed her little dog, Toto, into a picnic basket and flew off to the wicked witch's castle?

Would that be ok?

Well, I don't know how the straw man would shove a mackerel up his ass but I know it's possible so just don't ask me how it's done.

Rusty Jones
10-27-2014, 03:42 PM
I can see my temper tantrum argument got the best of you.

I don't even know what you SAID during your tantrum.


You have to admit that blowing up violently at a transgender prostitute because of your own stupidity is wrong.

Maybe, but NOT doing it means that you like man-ass.

TJMAC77SP
10-27-2014, 03:46 PM
Woke up this morning at 198. I don't think I gained weight... it's likely that of the nine pounds that I lost, only seven were "real." Hopefully a six mile run tonight will MAKE them real.


I don't even know what you SAID during your tantrum.



Maybe, not NOT doing it means that you like man-ass.

Not sure if you 'butt-typed' the first part but will let that go. No pun intended but just can't figure out what you current weight situation has to do with anything.

Is the last line one of your homoerotic taunts because either way, I don't understand it?

Rusty Jones
10-27-2014, 03:48 PM
Not sure if you 'butt-typed' the first part but will let that go. No pun intended but just can't figure out what you current weight situation has to do with anything.

Is the last line one of your homoerotic taunts because either way, I don't understand it?

Yeah, I cut and pasted that from somewhere else.

Rusty Jones
10-27-2014, 03:51 PM
Maybe it's a homoerotic taunt, maybe it's not. But I don't believe that someone who can shrug off something like this is truly straight.

TJMAC77SP
10-27-2014, 04:06 PM
Maybe it's a homoerotic taunt, maybe it's not. But I don't believe that someone who can shrug off something like this is truly straight.

And I don't believe that anyone who would purport to get this upset over it doesn't have their own latent homosexual issues to contend with.

BTW: Attempt at being clever aside, it either was a homoerotic taunt or it wasn't.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-27-2014, 04:12 PM
Maybe, but NOT doing it means that you like man-ass.

If you don't like man-ass, then don't go to Subic and pick up transvestite prostitutes.

And don't give the lame excuse of being duped either. Frankly, I don't buy that, and neither will a jury.

It is your fault for not doing your due diligence. You don't get to beat another person to death just because you have a case of buyer's remorse.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-27-2014, 04:17 PM
Well, I don't know how the straw man would shove a mackerel up his ass but I know it's possible so just don't ask me how it's done.

So, what you are saying is that this must have happened to Rusty once upon a time.

Good theory, I agree with you.

He wants to shift the blame, when the whole fiasco was his fault.

Rusty Jones
10-27-2014, 04:22 PM
So, what you are saying is that this must have happened to Rusty once upon a time.

Good theory, I agree with you.

He wants to shift the blame, when the whole fiasco was his fault.

It only happened with you, babe. What you do think I meant when I said you were my bitch?

Rusty Jones
10-27-2014, 04:29 PM
So the choice is between A. being homo or bi; or B. having "latent homosexual issues." Fuck, I'll take B then. You and AA can have A.

sandsjames
10-27-2014, 04:34 PM
And I don't believe that anyone who would purport to get this upset over it doesn't have their own latent homosexual issues to contend with. This is always such a weak argument. "If you have a problem with it, you must have homosexual issues". Weak...very weak. I guess this is the kind of response to expect from a "metrosexual" society of effeminate men.

Rusty Jones
10-27-2014, 04:38 PM
This is always such a weak argument. "If you have a problem with it, you must have homosexual issues". Weak...very weak. I guess this is the kind of response to expect from a "metrosexual" society of effeminate men.

I'm actually kind of shocked to see this come from TJ. Didn't he come of age toward the end of the Vietnam Era? He's from the last generation of men to not have been tainted by all the androgynous bullshit.

USN - Retired
10-27-2014, 05:12 PM
I guess this is the kind of response to expect from a "metrosexual" society of effeminate men.

A "metrosexual" society of effeminate men? That's some mighty big talk, especially considering that you believe that women should "hold all the cards" in a sexual relationship.



RJ said...


Legal prostitution maintains sexual equilibrium - which we don't have in the US. Here, women hold the cards.

and SJ responded by saying...


As they should.

TJMAC77SP
10-27-2014, 05:24 PM
This is always such a weak argument. "If you have a problem with it, you must have homosexual issues". Weak...very weak. I guess this is the kind of response to expect from a "metrosexual" society of effeminate men.

My statement was not broad based but specifically referring to RJ. He has a long history of bringing the subject of homosexuality (with an over the top vehemence) into thread after thread and then couple this with his inane attempt to justify and/or excuse someone because, through their own actions, they found themselves in a sexual situation with a transgendered person and killed that person is worthy of looking into what drives a psyche like that.

Now your own attempt to paint all men with the 'metrosexual' brush to deflect from legitimate points being raised as intellectually lazy at best.

Rusty Jones
10-27-2014, 05:30 PM
My statement was not broad based but specifically referring to RJ. He has a long history of bringing the subject of homosexuality (with an over the top vehemence) into thread after thread and then couple this with his inane attempt to justify and/or excuse someone because, through their own actions, they found themselves in a sexual situation with a transgendered person and killed that person is worthy of looking into what drives a psyche like that.

Dude, YOU are the only one here who says this. Not only that, but you haven't even referenced any examples.

If you're talking about the whole "homoeroticism" thing, I'll grant you that. But if we're talking about gay community issues... then you've got me confused with someone else.

TJMAC77SP
10-27-2014, 05:41 PM
Dude, YOU are the only one here who says this. Not only that, but you haven't even referenced any examples.

If you're talking about the whole "homoeroticism" thing, I'll grant you that. But if we're talking about gay community issues... then you've got me confused with someone else.

So granted. Thank you. No confusion.

Seriously this is my extremely amateur opinion. I have held it for a long time. I am not looking to score points in an argument. I could of course be way off base but I have asked over and over again what drives you to immediately resort to this type of response. If you were a teenager or even a young man it would be explained by the stupidity of youth but you aren't and I just don't get it.

Edit: For the record.....I am not saying you are secretly gay. That isn't the point at all. It isn't as you pointed out, choice A or choice B. Most of life is lived in the grey areas. I understand to some extent where SJ is coming from on this thread. He has a strong self-professed religious belief system which does not condone homosexuality (of course it doesn't condone murder either but that is another point). You are a self-declared atheist so that wouldn't apply to you. I just don't understand your extreme penchant for the subject. We have a Marine who apparently engaged in sex with a transgendered person and then killed her so all sorts of assumptions are made and supported ad nauseam to somehow justify the killing. That is just weird (in my opinion). I am repeating myself here so..............