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Rusty Jones
10-03-2014, 11:30 AM
I saw this article in my facebook feed:

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/10/01/author-suggests-jesus-never-existed-after-finding-no-mention-of-him-in-historical-texts/

In an article published by the Council for Secular Humanism, historical researcher and author Michael Paulkovich claims that Jesus of Nazareth “never existed” and is a “mythical character.”

Paulkovich, who dedicated his book “No Meek Messiah: Christianity’s Lies, Laws and Legacy” to disproving Jesus’ existence, says that out of the 126 historical texts he examined from the first to third centuries, not a single one referenced the prominent religious figure. Paulkovich believes that if the stories of Jesus had been true, the authors of Jesus’ time would have been writing about his “global miracles and alleged worldwide fame.”

In the article titled “The Fable of The Christ,” Paulkovich refers to Jesus as a fictional character that Christian followers made up so that they had someone to worship. Although Paulkovich admits that he did find mention of Jesus in the 95 AD “The Jewish Wars” by Roman historian Josephus Flavius, he believes Jesus was added in much later by editors of Flavius’ work.

Paulkovich wrote:


“When I consider those 126 writers, all of whom should have heard of Jesus but did not, and Paul and Marcion and Athenagoras and Matthew with a tetralogy of opposing Christs, the silence from Qumran and Nazareth and Bethlehem, conflicting Bible stories, and so many other mysteries and omissions, I must conclude this ‘Jesus Christ’ is a mythical character. ‘Jesus of Nazareth’ was nothing more than urban (or desert) legend, likely an agglomeration of several evangelic and deluded rabbis who might have existed.” (source)
These 126 writers, which Paulkovich refers to as “The Silent Historians,” are all listed below:

http://www.addictinginfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/1412156495625_wps_3_126_jpg.jpg

Paulkovich also claims that Paul, the apostle most credited for spreading Christianity, has never actually referred to Jesus as a real, physical being.


“Paul is unaware of the virgin mother, and ignorant of Jesus’ nativity, parentage, life events, ministry, miracles, apostles, betrayal, trial and harrowing passion. Paul knows neither where nor when Jesus lived, and considers the crucifixion metaphorical.” (source)
Paulkovich regards the stories of Jesus as “oral legend” and a “hoax.” The controversial researcher also refers to Christianity as a “cult” and is hopeful that one day the spreading of “nonsense to children” will be stopped. He also calls the religious teachings “child abuse.”


“The cult of Christianity has an incalculable amount of blood on its hands. And the ‘Jesus’ tale seems to have been nothing more than oral legend, with plenty of hoax and fraud perpetrated along the ages. It is my hope that mankind will someday grow up and relegate the Jesus tales to the same stewing pile that contains Zeus and his son Hercules, roiling away in their justifiable status as mere myth.

The time to stop teaching the tall tales and nonsense to children, frightening them with eternal torture administered by God’s minions, has long ago passed. Parents who do so are likely deluded, and most surely are guilty of child abuse of the worst sort.” (source)
Echoing these remarks, the description of Paulkovich’s book “No Meek Messiah” reads:
I saw this article in my facebook feed:


“The book chronicles the cobbling of Christianity, its outrageous forgeries, and its immoral acts of torture, genocide, and obfuscation over the many centuries. The ‘virgin birth’ tale was a forgery perpetrated 250 years before Jesus, even admitted by the Catholic Encyclopedia.” (source)

Paulkovich is not alone in his theory. Richard Dawkins, atheist and author of “The God Delusion,” has previously described the evidence for Jesus’ existence as “shaky.” Just last year, self-proclaimed Biblical scholar Joseph Atwill said that Jesus was manufactured by Roman aristocrats in a government effort to control citizens — a plot he speaks about in his book, “Caesar’s Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus.”

The vast majority of theologians and scholars still hold the opinion that Jesus as a person did exist — even if he was a mere man instead of a Christian savior. There is even an atheist who disagrees with Paulkovich’s claims that Jesus was a fictional character. While we search for answers, there is no question that Paulkovich has riled up a storm within the Christian community, and this won’t be the last time we hear of his comments.

Rusty Jones
10-03-2014, 11:47 AM
Interesting comment someone made on the facebook post of that article:


This true this is the absolute truth. Jesus was never mentioned in any Historical text.. The entire NT is a lie, Hell it does not even agree with each other. I can just show by example here.
Contradictions in the New Testament (Does G-d not know what he said or wanted to say?)
The announcement of the special birth came before conception. Lk.1:26-31.
The announcement of the special birth came after conception. Mt.1:18-21.

Jesus’ parents were told of their son’s future greatness. Mt.1:18-21; Lk.1:28-35.
Jesus’ parents knew nothing of their son’s potential. Lk.2:48-50.
The angel told Joseph. Mt.1:20.
The angel told Mary. Lk.1:28.

There were 28 generations from David to Jesus. Mt.1:17.
There were 43 generations from David to Jesus. Lk.3:23-31.
If this were both parents then they would have lived about 100-200 years apart from
each other as well!

Jacob was Joseph’s father. Mt.1:16.
Heli was Joseph’s father. Lk.3:23.
Christians state because Heli was his Father-in-law, this has nothing to do with
bloodline and would not be listed in a bloodline tie to King David!

He was to be called Emmanuel. Mt.1:23.
He was called Jesus. Mt.1:25.

Joseph, Mary, and Jesus flee to Egypt while Herod slaughters all males under
2 years old. Mt.2:13-16. (Note: Jesus’ cousin, John, was also under 2 and
survived without having to flee.)
Joseph, Mary, and Jesus did not flee to Egypt, but remained for temple rituals.
No slaughter of infants is mentioned! Lk.2:21-39.

Jesus was tempted during the 40 days in the wilderness. Mk.1:13.
Jesus was tempted after the 40 days in the wilderness. Mt.4:2,3.

The devil first took Jesus to the pinnacle, then to the mountain top. Mt.4:5-8.
The devil first took Jesus to the mountain top, then to the pinnacle. Lk.4:5-9.

Satan tempted Jesus. Mt.4:1-10; Mk.1:13; Lk.4:1,2.
Satan had no interest in Jesus. Jn.14:30.

The baptism of Jesus was with the “Holy Ghost”. Mk.1:8; Jn.1:33.
Fire was also added to the baptism. Mt.3:11; Lk.3:16.

John knew of Jesus before he baptized him. Mt.3:11-13; Jn.1:28,29.
John knew nothing of Jesus at all. Mt.11:1-3.

Jesus begins his ministry after John’s arrest. Mk.1:13,14.
Jesus begins his ministry before John’s arrest. Jn.3:22-24.

It is recorded that Jesus saw the spirit descending. Mt.3:16; Mk.1:10.
It is recorded that John saw the spirit descending. Jn.1:32.

The heavenly voice addressed the gathering. Mt.3:17.
The heavenly voice addressed Jesus. Mk.1:11; Lk.3:22.

Immediately after the baptism, Jesus spent 40 days in the wilderness. Mt.4:1,2; Mk.1:12,13.
Three days after the baptism, Jesus was at the wedding in Cana. Jn.2:1. (and the list goes on and on)

sandsjames
10-03-2014, 12:24 PM
That does it...now I'm an Atheist.

sandsjames
10-03-2014, 12:54 PM
Just to point out one verse...The John 14:30 reference does not say Satan has no interest. What is says is that Satan has no hold over Jesus.

When I have some time I'll look through the rest.

Just after reading quickly through a couple of the comparisons, I'll say this. Don't trust Facebook posts.

One more....nowhere does it say he was the son of Heli. It says he was the son of Joseph, who was the son of Heli.

It's almost comical.

Mjölnir
10-03-2014, 03:16 PM
And speaking of comical:

http://scifimafia.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/thor-v-jesus.jpg?11fec2

Rusty Jones
10-03-2014, 03:27 PM
And speaking of comical:

http://scifimafia.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/thor-v-jesus.jpg?11fec2

In defense of Christians, the presense of ice giants was made manifest through winter weather. So if one were of the Asatru religion, he or she would still believe that ice giants currently exist.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-03-2014, 04:25 PM
Even if I were to pretend that the bible is true, I can find plenty of reasons to reject the god of the Old Testament and God 2.0 that was rebooted in the New Testament.

If this deity is what the scriptures claim, he doesn't deserve to be worshiped. He should be resisted, we should rise in revolt against his murderous and bloodthirsty plan for humanity.

A god that would drown his creation with a great flood, is hardly a Heavenly Father that deserves our admiration and respect. He then offers us rainbows as a promise not to drown us again? That sounds too much like a wife beater who comes back home with a bouquet of flowers to assure his battered wife that he won't do it again.

You want to pray to a fucking monster that does shit like that?

Heck, he even leaves to door open to more violence, promising that he won't pull another act of genocide with water, next time he will use fire!

Fuck you god! That sucks, and on judgement day, right before you banish me to an enternity in hell, I'm going to give you a stern reprimand.

Sure, you sent us a mellowed out and sometimes poetic Jesus some 2000 years ago, but you still left us with your threat of mass destruction hanging over our heads.

The book of Revelations caps off your holy book with such grand promises of trials and tribulations, the epic battle of Armageddon, judgement day, and the final destruction of the earth with the apocalypse.

It must be boring as fuck up in heaven, if this asshole has the create so much fucking drama down here on Earth to entertain his holy ass.

He is a sick and twisted god. His cruelty knows no bounds. He is vengeful, prone to fits of rage, and one hell of a lousy communicator.

The message in his holy book is so fucking confusing that we have all these different sects of Christainity because it can be interpreted in so many different ways.

I say verily unto you Christains, join me on judgement day to give god a stern reprimand.

Does he really deserve to be followed unquestionly? Just look at his track record.

sandsjames
10-03-2014, 04:33 PM
Either way, just making a point that the contradictions cited in the OP are not worded in the bible as stated. Just another sad person with a failed attempt to disprove Christian beliefs by stating subjective interpretations as the only interpretation.

Rusty Jones
10-03-2014, 04:34 PM
Does he really deserve to be followed unquestionly? Just look at his track record.

What I want to know is, why would he need it? One common chant in Christianity is "praise the Lord."

Why praise the Lord? Does he need your moral support? He's an omnipotent being, for crying out loud! Why does he need your praise? For that matter, why does he even need your worship? Why would an omnipotent want for anything?

Absinthe Anecdote
10-03-2014, 04:41 PM
Either way, just making a point that the contradictions cited in the OP are not worded in the bible as stated. Just another sad person with a failed attempt to disprove Christian beliefs by stating subjective interpretations as the only interpretation.

Either way, you are willfully ignoring the muderous monster described in the bible. You choose to see him as all loving and peaceful, yet his book proudly lists such murderous deeds in the passages that actually have a bit of clarity.

Have fun worshiping your monster.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-03-2014, 04:56 PM
What I want to know is, why would he need it? One common chant in Christianity is "praise the Lord."

Why praise the Lord? Does he need your moral support? He's an omnipotent being, for crying out loud! Why does he need your praise? For that matter, why does he even need your worship? Why would an omnipotent want for anything?

Great point!

After so many years struggling over to believe in him or not, I came to the following conclusion.

If the story told in the bible is true, then we are nothing but mere playthings for him. Some sort of amusement that he created for his pleasure.

Then he wants to test and judge us?

What an asshole! Really, a cosmically tremendous asshole!

I have no problem admitting that I thoroughly resent being a flesh and blood version of a GI Joe doll for some fucking lunatic omnipotent god to play with in his backyard.

He really needs a spanking for being so damn naughty to his pets, or whatever the fuck we are.

How does one look at the concept of God, and not see that?

sandsjames
10-03-2014, 04:57 PM
Either way, you are willfully ignoring the muderous monster described in the bible. You choose to see him as all loving and peaceful, yet his book proudly lists such murderous deeds in the passages that actually have a bit of clarity.

Have fun worshiping your monster.

I'm not going to engage too much on this, other than to say that the bible, in fact, teaches us that God was very vengeful and very jealous. To me, if a book was trying to hide anything, it would have avoided that fact. Also, it would seem to me that if the New Testament was false and was merely trying to control us, then it wouldn't have been all about us not having to be perfect.

Either way, back to my original point, the verses in the OP that were apparently meant to prove, or disprove, something failed miserably. But it was on Facebook, so maybe if you forward/share it you will receive $5000.

sandsjames
10-03-2014, 04:59 PM
Great point!

After so many years struggling over to believe in him or not, I came to the following conclusion.

If the story told in the bible is true, then we are nothing but mere playthings for him. Some sort of amusement that he created for his pleasure.

Then he wants to test and judge us?

What an asshole! Really, a cosmically tremendous asshole!

I have no problem admitting that I thoroughly resent being a flesh and blood version of a GI Joe doll for some fucking lunatic omnipotent god to play with in his backyard.

He really needs a spanking for being so damn naughty to his pets, or whatever the fuck we are.

How does one look at the concept of God, and not see that?

What I would resent, if I were you, is going through your life knowing that there's nothing for you once you die so there is really no purpose to your life. I would resent knowing that it doesn't make a difference how I act, whether I'm kind or not, because my life is only 80 years out of billions and billions and has zero impact on anything. That's what I would resent. Mother nature is a bitch.

Rusty Jones
10-03-2014, 05:16 PM
I'm not going to engage too much on this, other than to say that the bible, in fact, teaches us that God was very vengeful and very jealous. To me, if a book was trying to hide anything, it would have avoided that fact. Also, it would seem to me that if the New Testament was false and was merely trying to control us, then it wouldn't have been all about us not having to be perfect.

Either way, back to my original point, the verses in the OP that were apparently meant to prove, or disprove, something failed miserably. But it was on Facebook, so maybe if you forward/share it you will receive $5000.

You only disputed one contradiction, and it was due to misreading what was said in that post. It was talking about who the father of Joseph was, not who raised Jesus.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-03-2014, 05:53 PM
What I would resent, if I were you, is going through your life knowing that there's nothing for you once you die so there is really no purpose to your life. I would resent knowing that it doesn't make a difference how I act, whether I'm kind or not, because my life is only 80 years out of billions and billions and has zero impact on anything. That's what I would resent. Mother nature is a bitch.

Your behavior matters in the here and now. It makes a difference to your fellow humans how you act, right now.

Are you telling me that you are only kind and gentle with others, because of a promise of reward or punishment in the afterlife?

That doesn't sound very noble to me. Actually, that sounds as fucked up as a god playing with us like we are his toys.

You two deserve each other. Maybe in the afterlife, you'll join him in his heavenly backyard and you two can burn ants with a magnifying glass, or blow up a few frogs with firecrackers.

Nope.

I'd rather live in a universe free from that fucking childish tyrant.

I'd rather be as fleeting as a flower bloom, or a butterfly. The notion that our lives are nothing but a mere flash against the backdrop of eternity makes me feel all the more special.

It makes the ugliness that I have seen more tolerable, and the beauty more intense.

I don't want to be a slave to god, I don't want to praise him for sending tornadoes that maim and kill families.

If it turns out that you are right, and that god is real. I truly hope that I have the courage to confront him about all of this on judgement day. How can you not see him as a childish monster?

The universe without him is truly spectacular, and our short lives are immensely more special.

Our behavior and treatment of others in a kind way is even more crucial without the concept of an afterlife!

Can you not see that?

Can you not see that the silly notion of a paradise, deludes and corrupts the mind?

Ask your god to create an account on the MTF and explain why I should bow down to him. Please, I'm serious. We all know that he can put me on my knees with cancer, or send a city bus into the side of my SUV, any time he chooses.

What he won't do is explain his fucking absurd plan to us. No! He has to be mysterious about it. Truly, what an incredible asshole god is.

Have a nice weekend brother SJ!

Sincerely...

Absinthe Anecdote
10-03-2014, 06:25 PM
I'm not going to engage too much on this, other than to say that the bible, in fact, teaches us that God was very vengeful and very jealous. To me, if a book was trying to hide anything, it would have avoided that fact. Also, it would seem to me that if the New Testament was false and was merely trying to control us, then it wouldn't have been all about us not having to be perfect.

Either way, back to my original point, the verses in the OP that were apparently meant to prove, or disprove, something failed miserably. But it was on Facebook, so maybe if you forward/share it you will receive $5000.

Go back and read my post again, please. I didn't claim the bible was trying to hide God's jealousy or vengence. I pointed out that it is one of the few areas that are abundently clear.

What I asked, is for you to ponder what that says about the character and nature of God.

My point is, if he is real, he isn't worthy of praise or worship.

I am making a claim that he is a monster. If real, he is more powerful than me, but that alone does not gain my praise. He can't buy me off with the promise of heaven, nor can he scare me into worship with the threat of hell.

Like I said before, have fun praying to your monsterous bully.

I've give you that the NT Jesus is a bit more palatable, but as a teacher, he was annoyingly cryptic, and squandered his miracles turning water into wine.

Why not leave us a bible that is a bit easier to understand? Now that would be a miracle!

Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Hmmm, I can only conclude that even Jesus is in cahoots with the jealous and vengeful OT monster.

Thanks, but no thanks. I refuse to follow that ridiculous myth.

But please do have a nice weekend!

Stalwart
10-03-2014, 06:35 PM
I have joked a few times about the differences in God in the Old Testament and God in the New Testament; how it seems got a bit soft after having a kid ... as most of us do -- :)

Big picture is that proving God exists is about as futile as trying to prove he doesn't; it is a concept that is beyond the material and extends into faith beyond what we can touch, see and feel.

AA is right; my belief in God has nothing to do with how I treat people here and now. I don't try to be a good person to secure a place in the afterlife, but because I think being a good person is better than the alternative.

USN - Retired
10-03-2014, 07:13 PM
“If there is any religion that could respond to the needs of modern science, it would be Buddhism.” ~Albert Einstein.

"This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness." ~Dalai Lama

sandsjames
10-03-2014, 08:55 PM
What I asked, is for you to ponder what that says about the character and nature of God.

My point is, if he is real, he isn't worthy of praise or worship. Subjective.


I am making a claim that he is a monster. If real, he is more powerful than me, but that alone does not gain my praise. He can't buy me off with the promise of heaven, nor can he scare me into worship with the threat of hell.

Like I said before, have fun praying to your monsterous bully. So which is it? Is he a monstrous bully, and that's why you hate him, or does he not exist, which is why you don't believe in him?


I've give you that the NT Jesus is a bit more palatable, but as a teacher, he was annoyingly cryptic, and squandered his miracles turning water into wine.

Why not leave us a bible that is a bit easier to understand? Now that would be a miracle!Because that would remove the need for faith.


Thanks, but no thanks. I refuse to follow that ridiculous myth. As do I with the myth of evolution...I mean...the theory.


But please do have a nice weekend!I will, indeed. I'll say a nice prayer for you.

sandsjames
10-03-2014, 08:57 PM
AA is right; my belief in God has nothing to do with how I treat people here and now. I don't try to be a good person to secure a place in the afterlife, but because I think being a good person is better than the alternative.I agree completely, and am not a "just in case" believer. Seems silly to be such as thing since it's not our actions alone, but our intentions, that will be judged.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-03-2014, 11:02 PM
Subjective.

I take that simple one word response to mean that you don't fancy the thought of pondering the nature of god. I can't say that I blame you, it isn't a pleasant thing to do.




So which is it? Is he a monstrous bully, and that's why you hate him, or does he not exist, which is why you don't believe in him?

In my case it is both. I arrived at the conclusion that God is a monstrous bully first, and then I killed him by ceasing to believe in him. I spent many years struggling with my faith in god, and it was rather painful.

The more I sought to know him through his scripture, the more I realized what an abhorrent monster he is.

I challenged him to come have it out with me, but he refused. I eventually stopped believing in him, and he just died. He died in much the same manner Santa Claus died when I stopped believing in him, with little fanfare, he just ceased to exist.

I think he went to the same place all dead gods and mythical creatures go, he's hanging out with Zeus, Apollo, Odin, Thor, the Easter Island Moai, Leprechauns, wood sprites, water pixies, and jolly old Saint Nick.

Despite being mad at him, and thinking he was a tyrannical monster, I mourned his passing for some time. It's hard to explain, and I know it must be confusing to hear me speak of him in terms of being both a myth, and a real monster at the same time.

I apologize for the confusion, and I know you think that I'm being disrespectful just for fun, but I'm not. I'm sharing a very personal part of my self with you and the rest of the readers. Perhaps, the most vulnerable aspect of my personality, yet it is also a great source of my strength.

It was very agonizing for me to decide that God was a monster, and then kill him like that.

It was so very painful, and I was angry, so very angry for such a long while.

The anger comes back once in a while, as I'm sure you've noticed.




Because that would remove the need for faith.

If you have the time, would you care to explain why such a premium is placed on faith? Why is it wrong to follow our naturally inquisitive minds?

God gave us the gift of thought, he made us to be curious. Why is curiosity so dangerous to God's existence, and unquestioning faith so vital to his existence?

Why?

If he is truly all powerful, truly the Alpha and Omega, then why must we play this silly game of faith with him?


As do I with the myth of evolution...I mean...the theory.

Just out of curiosity, how old do you think the Earth is? I won't question you further on the matter or taunt you for whatever your answer is, I just would like to know how old you think our planet is.




I will, indeed. I'll say a nice prayer for you.

Thanks brother! I never turn down a prayer. I can't pray for you, but I will have a nice moment of thought on your behalf. :)

sandsjames
10-03-2014, 11:24 PM
If you have the time, would you care to explain why such a premium is placed on faith? Why is it wrong to follow our naturally inquisitive minds? I muse at how you assume that people of faith don't have inquisitive minds. I ask questions about my faith on a daily basis.


God gave us the gift of thought, he made us to be curious. Why is curiosity so dangerous to God's existence, and unquestioning faith so vital to his existence? It's not dangerous to him. There's nothing wrong with being curious, just as there is nothing wrong with a child being curious about things their parents tell them not to do.




If he is truly all powerful, truly the Alpha and Omega, then why must we play this silly game of faith with him? Because the only other option is to take away our free will.



Just out of curiosity, how old do you think the Earth is? I won't question you further on the matter or taunt you for whatever your answer is, I just would like to know how old you think our planet is. Billions of years, I'm sure. There are relatively accurate ways to prove the age, unless you are one who believes that God designed it so that it would appear older than it actually is, but I don't believe that.




Thanks brother! I never turn down a prayer. I can't pray for you, but I will have a nice moment of thought on your behalf. :)I appreciate it. A nice thought, a prayer...same same.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-04-2014, 12:41 AM
Because the only other option is to take away our free will.


My pastor said something like that once, but I don't understand that answer.

God used to appear to people and speak to them directly. It happened a lot.

Adam and Eve had free will, did they not?

Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jacob even got to wrestle with an angel! Did not they maintain free will?

Lot and his family met two angels right before Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed. It didn't destroy Lot's wife's free will, she looked back after being told not to. Did not she have free will?

There are a bunch more in the OT, and even in the NT.

What about the disciples of Jesus, did they have free will? Especially the twelve Apostles, they are very problematic. What about Judas? I guess he didn't have free will, huh? I mean he was kind of obligated to betray Jesus.

Poor Peter, he was locked into disowning Jesus three times before the rooster crowed, wasn't he?

I'll agree that Peter and Judas had no free will, because they were an integral part of God's plan, but what about the rest of the Apostles? Did they have free will?

What about all those people that Jesus fed the loaves and fishes to? Did he destroy their free will?

Does seeing God or an angel really take away your free will? I'm not so sure it does in every instance.

I maintain that it is the whole notion of God's plan and prophecies that really mess with free will. Not the mere sight of God.

If we are all really part of a plan, even a small part, do we even have free will?

Plus, if the prophecies say that a certain number of people are going to hell, then don't a certain number of people have to go to hell?

This is what I don't like about god, we are nothing but pawns to him.

Some have free will, some don't, we are just toys to him. I don't like that one bit.

He wouldn't even come talk it over with me either.

Nope! He practically dared me to kill him. So, I lost my faith and he died just to spite me.

I can only conclude that I am one of the drones put here specifically to become a blasphemer and occupy a seat in hell, or that the whole thing is a fairy tale.

No offense, but I don't think you have put much thought into all this.

You might be better off just not questioning the whole thing. I think you were telling me a fib when you said you questioned your faith daily.

Just thank your lucky stars that you weren't destined to become an atheist, you got an easy part in god's plan.

We hell bounders are sure carrying a heavy load when you think about it.

sandsjames
10-04-2014, 01:26 AM
My pastor said something like that once, but I don't understand that answer.

God used to appear to people and speak to them directly. It happened a lot.

Adam and Eve had free will, did they not?

Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jacob even got to wrestle with an angel! Did not they maintain free will?

Lot and his family met two angels right before Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed. It didn't destroy Lot's wife's free will, she looked back after being told not to. Did not she have free will?

There are a bunch more in the OT, and even in the NT.

What about the disciples of Jesus, did they have free will? Especially the twelve Apostles, they are very problematic. What about Judas? I guess he didn't have free will, huh? I mean he was kind of obligated to betray Jesus.

Poor Peter, he was locked into disowning Jesus three times before the rooster crowed, wasn't he?

I'll agree that Peter and Judas had no free will, because they were an integral part of God's plan, but what about the rest of the Apostles? Did they have free will?

What about all those people that Jesus fed the loaves and fishes to? Did he destroy their free will?

Does seeing God or an angel really take away your free will? I'm not so sure it does in every instance.

I maintain that it is the whole notion of God's plan and prophecies that really mess with free will. Not the mere sight of God.

If we are all really part of a plan, even a small part, do we even have free will?

Plus, if the prophecies say that a certain number of people are going to hell, then don't a certain number of people have to go to hell?

This is what I don't like about god, we are nothing but pawns to him.

Some have free will, some don't, we are just toys to him. I don't like that one bit.

He wouldn't even come talk it over with me either.

Nope! He practically dared me to kill him. So, I lost my faith and he died just to spite me.

I can only conclude that I am one of the drones put here specifically to become a blasphemer and occupy a seat in hell, or that the whole thing is a fairy tale.

No offense, but I don't think you have put much thought into all this.

You might be better off just not questioning the whole thing. I think you were telling me a fib when you said you questioned your faith daily.

Just thank your lucky stars that you weren't destined to become an atheist, you got an easy part in god's plan.

We hell bounders are sure carrying a heavy load when you think about it.

Yep, they all had free will. God did not appear to everyone, even then. Every single one of those instances you mentioned was about one thing. Temptation. And that is where the challenge comes in.

You really don't think I question it? Every single day I question it. Everything you've mentioned, I questioned. But then I look around me and realize that, for me, there is no other possible answer.

Nobody was put here to occupy a seat in hell, just as nobody was born to spend their life in prison. However, there are laws and most of us actually have the capability to choose whether we follow those laws or not. Some people choose to follow them, some people choose not to and have no regret, some choose not to but have regret and feel sorry for what they've done, and others don't even realize they are breaking the law. I choose to believe in a creator that has given 3 of those 4 examples a path to forgiveness, while at the same time telling the 4th example exactly how to change.

Nobody is hell bound, and nobody is destined for anything.

As far as him daring you to kill him, I'll only say this. Maybe his way of showing you he exists is to make you hate him. You can't hate something that doesn't exist.

I don't know his intentions. I don't know his motives. What I do know is that, as far as the story goes, a criminal hanging on the cross next to Jesus had to believe for no more than his last few dying moments, and ask forgiveness, and it was granted. To me, that doesn't sound like an evil, hateful, bully God.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-04-2014, 03:10 AM
Yep, they all had free will. God did not appear to everyone, even then. Every single one of those instances you mentioned was about one thing. Temptation. And that is where the challenge comes in.

You really don't think I question it? Every single day I question it. Everything you've mentioned, I questioned. But then I look around me and realize that, for me, there is no other possible answer.

Nobody was put here to occupy a seat in hell, just as nobody was born to spend their life in prison. However, there are laws and most of us actually have the capability to choose whether we follow those laws or not. Some people choose to follow them, some people choose not to and have no regret, some choose not to but have regret and feel sorry for what they've done, and others don't even realize they are breaking the law. I choose to believe in a creator that has given 3 of those 4 examples a path to forgiveness, while at the same time telling the 4th example exactly how to change.

Nobody is hell bound, and nobody is destined for anything.

As far as him daring you to kill him, I'll only say this. Maybe his way of showing you he exists is to make you hate him. You can't hate something that doesn't exist.

I don't know his intentions. I don't know his motives. What I do know is that, as far as the story goes, a criminal hanging on the cross next to Jesus had to believe for no more than his last few dying moments, and ask forgiveness, and it was granted. To me, that doesn't sound like an evil, hateful, bully God.

First of all, thanks for taking the time to have this conversation with me, I really do appreciate it.

Didn't you just double back on me over the question on the importance of faith?

I asked why faith was so important, you said without it we'd have no free will.

I pointed out a bunch of instances of God making himself known to people, yet you agree that they maintain their free will?

I then put forth the claim that it is prophecies and God's plan that make free will problematic, and not the mere sight of God, his son, or god talking to you.

Take Peter as an example, when Jesus told Peter that he would disown him three times before the rooster crows, did Peter have a choice in the matter?

For Peter to do otherwise, would make Jesus wrong.

When God sends a prophecy to us, he seals our fate.

Clearly not everyone can escape hell, since his holy book says that multitudes of us are hell bound. For his prophecy to be fulfilled, there have to be people to fill seats in hell.

The only alternatives are that God is wrong, or God isn't real. Your prison analogy is so far off base, that I only mention it to say, it isn't relevant to our discussion of faith and free will.

If we are using the bible for the basis of our discussion, that prison analogy doesn't fit.

According to the bible, not everyone can have salvation as you claimed, some of us are going to hell. The bible says so. Are you saying the bible is wrong?

Also, "every single one of those instances" that I mentioned are not stories from the bible that illustrate temptation.

I have to question your knowledge of the bible when you say things like that. We've been over this particular ground before, and I will not encourage you to study your bible anymore. You seem much happier having only a fuzzy acquaintance with it.

I and so many other atheists have had their faith destroyed by studying the bible.

Read it with caution.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-04-2014, 06:09 AM
Please don't ignore my previous post, but I wanted to address the following two comments of yours because I found them particularly intriguing.


But then I look around me and realize that, for me, there is no other possible answer.

Can you find the words to describe this to me in a bit more detail?

Back a few post ago, I tried to describe my acceptance of no afterlife as making my brief existence all the more special. The belief that I only have a brief period to live, makes my small good deeds more meaningful, and my misdeeds less significant.

It makes everything good I have seen all the more beautiful, and all the horror that I have seen, so easier to tolerate.

A No-God-Universe makes my short life make sense. I'd much rather exist as an insect or flower does, than be caught up in a struggle between Hebrews, Gentiles, and Philistines.

How does God make life more beautiful? It's a big fight over territory and who worships what God, or who prays to what idol. Senseless bloodshed, when he has to power to stop it any time he chooses. But yet, he let's us grind each other down.

Can you try to explain why God and his judgements, punishments, tests, trials, and tribulations is the only possible answer?



What I do know is that, as far as the story goes, a criminal hanging on the cross next to Jesus had to believe for no more than his last few dying moments, and ask forgiveness, and it was granted. To me, that doesn't sound like an evil, hateful, bully God.

It does to me. That criminal could have been saved before being beaten and crucified. God could have stepped in as his almighty self, not in Jesus form, but Holy Ghost style, and stopped the Roman occupation, set the Pharisees straight, righted all wrongs and gave us peace without becoming Jesus.

Apparently, as great as Jesus was, he must have not been that convincing, since there were a great many people who had him brutalized, and then hung on a cross in agony beside that criminal.

The creator of the universe chooses to be not 100 percent convincing. However, he did go around performing miracles?

Can you explain this? Can you see why I think he is a monster? He chooses pain and suffering, when there is no need for it.

If he has the power that the bible says, he is a monster. Otherwise, a myth.

sandsjames
10-04-2014, 12:33 PM
This is such a difficult discussion to have on the internet because it's so hard to convey feeling and meaning behind typed words. Maybe if I were a novelist I could do a better job.

The things you mention are exactly the things that make me question faith on a regular basis. How can one claim free will while at the same time believing in a God that knows how things turnout? How can such a loving God have been so brutal? How can everyone have a chance when it's said that not everyone will have salvation? I know I'm not hitting all of your points, but my answer is that I have no idea. I really don't.

I think the hard part for non-believers to get is believers can put logic aside for faith, but that's we do. And I understand why it's difficult for people to grasp that.

Peter denying Jesus is a perfect example. I don't have the answer. Maybe Jesus never told Peter that it would happen, but when being written down, it made a better story.

As I mentioned, it's very difficult for me to convey thoughts and meaning in a forum like this. Image how difficult it is for someone writing a book in the bible to properly do so, especially without exaggerating at certain points to get a point across.

As far as the criminal on the cross...yes...he could have been saved far before being beaten on the cross. But then we wouldn't have an example of how anyone can be saved, no matter what they've done. Again, is it an accurate story or was it written to convey a specific message? Either way, I like the message in the end. So I throw logic out, and take it at faith that I have the same chance to be forgiven for the things I do.

sandsjames
10-04-2014, 12:46 PM
Can you find the words to describe this to me in a bit more detail?

I wanted to hit this one on it's own.

Just as many can't fathom how someone can believe in something they can't see and can't quantify, I can't fathom the entire concept billions of years of evolution leading us to this point.

If you look at everything in nature, it all works pretty perfectly. Animals, plants, the environment, everything works in concert with each other. Except for people. If we were all evolved along with everything else around us then, IMO, we would also fall into the category of working in concert with the rest of that stuff. What makes the difference is the fact that there is evil in the world. Evil is not natural. We don't find it anywhere else in nature. That evil comes from greed, it comes from temptation. The only possible explanation, to me, is that the temptation comes from the devil...and if there is evil, if there is a devil, then there is definitely a God.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-04-2014, 03:57 PM
I wanted to hit this one on it's own.

Just as many can't fathom how someone can believe in something they can't see and can't quantify, I can't fathom the entire concept billions of years of evolution leading us to this point.

If you look at everything in nature, it all works pretty perfectly. Animals, plants, the environment, everything works in concert with each other. Except for people. If we were all evolved along with everything else around us then, IMO, we would also fall into the category of working in concert with the rest of that stuff. What makes the difference is the fact that there is evil in the world. Evil is not natural. We don't find it anywhere else in nature. That evil comes from greed, it comes from temptation. The only possible explanation, to me, is that the temptation comes from the devil...and if there is evil, if there is a devil, then there is definitely a God.

Thanks for taking the time to share that with me. Many people see the natural world as you do. Harmonious, balanced perfectly, like a precision clock. I recently drew some strange looks in one of my literature classes when I put forth the view that any balance we see in nature is precarious and haphazard.

We had just read an essay on nature by Chief Luther Standing Bear, and he spoke of nature in very much the same terms you speak in.

When I look at nature I see a house of cards, ready to topple at the slightest disturbance. I see all of the many different forms of life, from the smallest bacteria to we mighty humans, as being locked in a violent struggle against not only against each other, but against the very universe.

All the life on this planet is clinging to a fragile toehold beneath a thin atmosphere, and a magnetic field that protects us from the deadly radiation of our own sun.

It is far from a perfect balance, there have been numerous extinctions, as one species overpowered another in the competition for food and dominance.

This happened many times, over and over, long before humankind showed up on earth.

I know you reject evolution (or parts of it) but the fact is, the fossil record shows a continuous arms race between the capability of predators, and the defenses of their prey.

I know it hard to see the brutality of nature when you are enjoying the scenic view of a mountain lake, but nature is very violent, it isn't peaceful and tranquil.

Go visit a spiderweb if you are having trouble understanding me, toss an insect into the web. You'll get a mini demonstration in the violent struggle for survival that goes on around us every minute of everyday.

If you have the time and inclination, you can even go buy a microscope, and examine a tiny drop of pond water to see amoeba and paramecium locked in mortal combat.

We humans are part of nature, we are not outside of it. If nature is brutal, so are we. If nature is innocent, then so are we.

The concept of evil is so very puzzling to me too; however, I choose not to blame it on a devil, or a god.

I attempt to explain it as our perception of behavior. We are social creatures, we battle for survival in groups. At one time, these groups were very small bands of hunter gathers that roamed the land. They depended on unity to survive against the elements, and against other small bands of hunter gathers. They had to adopt a code of conduct, so they created good and evil to be the framework of this code.

It was a brilliant invention because humans soon began working together in more efficient and larger teams. Their rules and codes of conduct had to grow with them, and one night, by the warm glow of a campfire, our ancestors gave birth to Gods, Devils, and all manners of spirits and deities.

Although these gods and devils were but a mere fiction, they animated the human social code in a very vivid manner.

Does good and evil truly exist? I believe they do, but they exist only in the interactions between one human being and another.

There is no good and evil between spider and wasp, between wolf and antelope, or between trout and dragonfly.

Good and evil only exists in the minds of humans, because it is our creation, our method of coping and surviving together as a species in a very violent and deadly universe.

They are very real forces for us, because it is what we use to measure one another, to keep each other loyal to the group, and even to expel a human from a group.

Good and evil are the essence of our social construct; however, there are no tiny devils or angels sitting on our shoulders, at least not in the world that I observe.

That's my take on all of this.

Thanks again for sharing your view, and for listening to mine.

This has been a pretty cool conversation.

Rainmaker
10-04-2014, 04:02 PM
Either way, you are willfully ignoring the muderous monster described in the bible. You choose to see him as all loving and peaceful, yet his book proudly lists such murderous deeds in the passages that actually have a bit of clarity.

Have fun worshiping your monster.

Whether he knows it or not. Abs has summed up nicely the sentiments of those practitioners of the mystery religions of ancient Babylon and this explains why so many of the Luciferian Cultists running our institutions of society hate the Spirit of Christ and Christians in general. And why they must be called into the light on it, as this is done in secret. Now, the bible can be taken many ways and it matters not to Rainmaker whether the man named Jesus ever existed or not. Rainmaker personally believes that it is a fiction (not secular history. but, salvation history). Now, There are two worlds: the outer world of effect and the inner world of causation. can a fictional story be divine? People have been arguing this for thousands of years, and can never prove the existence or non-existence of God. That's why it's called faith. It's a Mystery and It's designed to be that way. If it was made explicit what would be the point of the exercise? gnomesayin?

Absinthe Anecdote
10-04-2014, 04:59 PM
Peter denying Jesus is a perfect example. I don't have the answer. Maybe Jesus never told Peter that it would happen, but when being written down, it made a better story.

As I mentioned, it's very difficult for me to convey thoughts and meaning in a forum like this. Image how difficult it is for someone writing a book in the bible to properly do so, especially without exaggerating at certain points to get a point across.

When I started viewing the bible in that manner it went against the teaching of the particular Baptist church I was a member of. They viewed the bible as the inerrant word of god, divinely inspired.

Once I started considering that the scribes who compiled the early Christian bible had likely taken creative license with certain passages, a fissure formed in the foundation of my faith.

It took a long time for that fissure to grow, but it continued to widen.

I tried several other Protestant churches, I became pretty comfortable in a Methodist church, but my study of the bible continued to haunt me.

If this passage was exaggerated, why not others? A very kind, gentle, and honest pastor unintentionally led me to atheism. He was an educated man, a biblical scholar, and from his advice, I started studying the bible against the backdrop of history. He was happy to see my hunger for knowledge about the bible, I think he hoped that I would consider going to seminary at some point, but it was nothing like that for me.

That fissure only continued to widen, but the heaviest strain on my faith occurred when I returned to the Baptist church, after I married a Baptist girl.

Her particular church was too "old time religion" for my tastes, and the gulf widened to the point I no longer wanted to go to church anymore.

Years later, I turned to atheism.

What I find interesting about you, is your non-affiliation with any church.

If I remember correctly, you don't go to a church on a regular basis, and never really have.

Is that correct?

I get the impression that much of your knowledge of scripture is word-of-mouth? I know that sounds insulting, but please don't take it that way. I'm just trying to understand where you view scripture from.

To admit that the bible isn't inerrant, and not divinely inspired is a very big deal.

A huge deal from the perspective of my religious past.

Rainmaker
10-04-2014, 05:12 PM
When I started viewing the bible in that manner it went against the teaching of the particular Baptist church I was a member of. They viewed the bible as the inerrant word of god, divinely inspired.

Once I started considering that the scribes who compiled the early Christian bible had likely taken creative license with certain passages, a fissure formed in the foundation of my faith.

It took a long time for that fissure to grow, but it continued to widen.

I tried several other Protestant churches, I became pretty comfortable in a Methodist church, but my study of the bible continued to haunt me.

If this passage was exaggerated, why not others? A very kind, gentle, and honest pastor unintentionally led me to atheism. He was an educated man, a biblical scholar, and from his advice, I started studying the bible against the backdrop of history. He was happy to see my hunger for knowledge about the bible, I think he hoped that I would consider going to seminary at some point, but it was nothing like that for me.

That fissure only continued to widen, but the heaviest strain on my faith occurred when I returned to the Baptist church, after I married a Baptist girl.

Her particular church was too "old time religion" for my tastes, and the gulf widened to the point I no longer wanted to go to church anymore.

Years later, I turned to atheism.

What I find interesting about you, is your non-affiliation with any church.

If I remember correctly, you don't go to a church on a regular basis, and never really have.

Is that correct?

I get the impression that much of your knowledge of scripture is word-of-mouth? I know that sounds insulting, but please don't take it that way. I'm just trying to understand where you view scripture from.

To admit that the bible isn't inerrant, and not divinely inspired is a very big deal.

A huge deal from the perspective of my religious past.

That'll do it...

sandsjames
10-04-2014, 05:32 PM
What I find interesting about you, is your non-affiliation with any church.

If I remember correctly, you don't go to a church on a regular basis, and never really have.

Is that correct?



That is correct. I went to church every Sunday from as young as I can remember until I was in my mid-teens. I attended many bible studies. I stopped attending that church when the preacher told my dad that my grandfather wasn't going to get into heaven because he was a minister from a different denomination. I then again tried to find churches I liked after joining the AF. I attended Baptist, Southern Baptist, Methodist, and a couple others. All of them were more business like than church like. I became tired of the hypocrisy within the Church. I became tired of being judged because I may have decided to wear jeans to church. I grew tired of sermons about how much money I should give to the church while at the same time watching the Baptist minister, in a congregation of thousands, driving a $150,000 car. Never once did I turn against religion. I turned against the corruption of many churches and the blind following of many of the congregation.

I know you've mentioned this many times, but I have indeed read the bible several times. I have studied, with several different "study guides" discussing different interpretations of the verses.

Because I am not studying in a way as to try to disprove to myself the existence of a deity, it's very probable that I overlook the verses that don't make sense or may have contradictions. I focus on the parts that make sense to me, that inspire me, and that allow me to maintain my faith in a way that impacts me alone.

My step-son is Atheist. Not once have I tried to "convert" him. He knows my beliefs, I know his, and it doesn't change our relationship at all. It's not something I'd ever force on anyone so, to me, it's a very private thing. If someone brings up the topic, I don't shy away. I have invited many Mormons and JWs into my house when they come knocking. I sit and listen and give my points of view.

Ultimately my main issue with the Church is the division that takes place within. I get tired of the "my beliefs are better than yours" people. The Christian Church was not designed to have several different denominations. So I choose none of them. I'm neither Catholic nor Protestant because there are parts of every single denomination that I agree with, and parts of every one that I don't.

INGUARD
10-07-2014, 12:40 PM
This youtube video was provided on this forum and it shows that many societies have a Christ like figure that was born on the 25th of December from a virgin mother. And brings up the same argument the OP provided about Jesus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4VRnXPDuXs

Rainmaker
10-08-2014, 09:36 PM
This youtube video was provided on this forum and it shows that many societies have a Christ like figure that was born on the 25th of December from a virgin mother. And brings up the same argument the OP provided about Jesus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4VRnXPDuXs

Good video. Thanks for posting. Very good summary of the Kabbalah belief system rolled up into a short flick. They generally consider Christianity to be a perversion of the Egyptian Occult religion. Hence their Hatred toward Christianity. And why they'll be happy to kill us. They can't wait to usher in the age of Aquarius. As then the age of Pisces (The fish) is over. Narrator doesn't tell you OSIRIS was eaten by a fish (Christianity) ushering in the current era. Sound like Jonah?

Rainmaker Found it Interesting @24:40 Narrator states "The Egyptian Religion is likely the foundation for Judeo-Christian Theology"

And yet in "The Antiquity of the Jews" Flavious Josephus tells us that Abraham taught science to the Egyptians and the Egyptians taught it to the Greeks and Plato was taught wisdom (initiated) by the Jewish Prophet Jeremiah in Egypt. so maybe it's the other way around? in which case who is perverting the truth then?

But, You guys are missing the point. It matters not whether a man named Jesus actually walked the face of the Earth or not. what matters is the message. and IRHO, the message is divinely inspired.

The Bible is allegory. Allegory defined is "a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one."

To the unlearned it's a story. to the initiated it contains wisdom of the ages.

The old testament is the record of man's eternal state and yes man's eternal state is much older than the Hebrew bible. They just wrote it down for us. Gnomesayin?

E4RUMOR
10-26-2014, 12:26 PM
Even if I were to pretend that the bible is true, I can find plenty of reasons to reject the god of the Old Testament and God 2.0 that was rebooted in the New Testament.

If this deity is what the scriptures claim, he doesn't deserve to be worshiped. He should be resisted, we should rise in revolt against his murderous and bloodthirsty plan for humanity.

A god that would drown his creation with a great flood, is hardly a Heavenly Father that deserves our admiration and respect. He then offers us rainbows as a promise not to drown us again? That sounds too much like a wife beater who comes back home with a bouquet of flowers to assure his battered wife that he won't do it again.

You want to pray to a fucking monster that does shit like that?

Heck, he even leaves to door open to more violence, promising that he won't pull another act of genocide with water, next time he will use fire!

Fuck you god! That sucks, and on judgement day, right before you banish me to an enternity in hell, I'm going to give you a stern reprimand.

Sure, you sent us a mellowed out and sometimes poetic Jesus some 2000 years ago, but you still left us with your threat of mass destruction hanging over our heads.

The book of Revelations caps off your holy book with such grand promises of trials and tribulations, the epic battle of Armageddon, judgement day, and the final destruction of the earth with the apocalypse.

It must be boring as fuck up in heaven, if this asshole has the create so much fucking drama down here on Earth to entertain his holy ass.

He is a sick and twisted god. His cruelty knows no bounds. He is vengeful, prone to fits of rage, and one hell of a lousy communicator.

The message in his holy book is so fucking confusing that we have all these different sects of Christainity because it can be interpreted in so many different ways.

I say verily unto you Christains, join me on judgement day to give god a stern reprimand.

Does he really deserve to be followed unquestionly? Just look at his track record.

Thank you. Thank you for boosting the very Word of God in which I believe with the rant you just made above.

For example:

For instance, in Romans 1:18-22 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they become fools.

Now, a fool is not someone who is ignorant of truth. A fool is someone who knows the truth, but chooses to disregard it.

Furthermore, the evidence of where you derive your ideas about God are plain. It's called Conjecture. Christopher Hitchens was a huge proponent of conjecture and utilized it in everyone of his debates, because even though it had nothing to do with his debates, it appealed to the emotional volition of his fans who ardently looked for any excuse to bolster their feigned non-belief in a Creator.

Conjecture runs like this: "If God existed, then we would expect that our universe would look something like 'such-and such'. 'Such-and-such' is not what we find in reality, therefore God must not exist." It's also utilized in describing the attributes of God. One ascribes or projects a character as to who and what God should be or how God should act, then goes on to predict how the world should be given that such an assumed God had in fact made it.

So Premise 1: God is such a being that he would create Universe A

Premise 2: We live in Universe B

Premise 3: Therefore, God did not create our universe

Premise 4: Therefore, God does not exist.

However, left to the whims of each person, Universe A becomes arbitrary and therefore the argument can be constructed in any random manner. A Nazi, for instance, might assume that God would be a person who would create an exclusively white race of human beings. An environmentalist might conceive of a world in which the animal kingdom did not depend on predation. And of course, the most universally advocated expectation of what one would expect to find in the creation of a benevolent God is the general absence of evil and suffering.

The problem with this kind of reasoning is that literally any question in the world can be framed in a manner of: "Why did God do this and not do that?"

Why did God make earthquakes? Why did God wait so long to make human beings? Why does the appendix exist? Why did God have to die on a cross? Why is the universe so big? Why do black holes exist? Why do people have to die? Why does God remain hidden?

All these objections do is beg the question in favor of atheism. Everything that we perceive as the shortcomings of our own likeness of who and what God is, in effect, becomes evidence against the deity. But, then of course, we can take the exact same reasoning and apply it to atheism the same way:

Why do we inhabit a universe based on laws? Why does life exist? Why does anything at all exist? Where do morality, beauty, art, truth, and music come from? Why do we even consider life's purpose, if the universe itself has none? Why would evolution produce a false belief in a higher realm of existence? Why do planets orbit suns? Why are there multiple dimensions? Why is life conscious? Why are humans self-aware?

Perhaps Proverbs 9:10 would help out: "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding."

You're already suppressing the truth, and therefore you're heart is darkened. Ergo, you're blind to the very nature of God, and who He is. But you have to start with Him in order to get anywhere with your reasoning, because frankly, an atheist worldview doesn't substantiate reasoning by anyone - because reason is based on truth, and truth is relative in the atheist worldview. But truth is Objective, set by God. Ergo, you have to start with Him.

Lastly, as a final illustration - think about how illogical it would be to demand an explanation or judge the very One who created you if you consider all His attributes. An ant has no quarrel with a boot, and yet you're of the mindset where if you're an ant, you would argue with a boot. Truly asinine, indeed.

USN - Retired
10-26-2014, 10:05 PM
“It ain’t supposed to make sense; it’s faith. Faith is something that you believe that nobody in his right mind would believe.” ~Archie Bunker

Rusty Jones
10-27-2014, 02:07 PM
I remember someone on facebook saying something along these lines: If one believes it, it's a psychological disorder. If few believe it, it's a cult. If many believe it, it's a religion.

E4RUMOR
10-28-2014, 09:56 AM
I remember someone on facebook saying something along these lines: If one believes it, it's a psychological disorder. If few believe it, it's a cult. If many believe it, it's a religion.

*Trying to figure out the point behind why it was posted.*

Rusty Jones
10-28-2014, 10:09 AM
*Trying to figure out the point behind why it was posted.*

Who cares? It's posted. You either respond to it or ignore it. Your move.

E4RUMOR
10-28-2014, 10:11 AM
Who cares? It's posted. You either respond to it or ignore it. Your move.

*Eats ice cream*

Absinthe Anecdote
10-28-2014, 01:05 PM
Now, a fool is not someone who is ignorant of truth. A fool is someone who knows the truth, but chooses to disregard it.

I put forth that followers of god are ignoring his true nature, as depicted in the scripture.

He is fanatically vain, homicidal, and vengeful; I know this, for the bible tells me so.

The Christian god is no more worthy of praise and worship than a blood thirsty volcano god.




Lastly, as a final illustration - think about how illogical it would be to demand an explanation or judge the very One who created you if you consider all His attributes. An ant has no quarrel with a boot, and yet you're of the mindset where if you're an ant, you would argue with a boot. Truly asinine, indeed.

You call me asinine for arguing with the boot, but you want to praise and worship that boot?

Your analogy even sucks, go out with your boots and stomp on a few fire ants. They will make you think twice about playing god with them again.

E4RUMOR
10-28-2014, 09:50 PM
I put forth that followers of god are ignoring his true nature, as depicted in the scripture.

He is fanatically vain, homicidal, and vengeful; I know this, for the bible tells me so.

The Christian god is no more worthy of praise and worship than a blood thirsty volcano god.





You call me asinine for arguing with the boot, but you want to praise and worship that boot?

Your analogy even sucks, go out with your boots and stomp on a few fire ants. They will make you think twice about playing god with them again.

You're missing the point. Furthermore, could you be wrong about everything you know?

Frankly, if this is your biggest gripe concerning the entire observation I made, i.e., how much my analogy sucks, I'm not in the least bothered by your opinion. Especially when it's dependent upon how you answer the question above.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-28-2014, 11:10 PM
You're missing the point. Furthermore, could you be wrong about everything you know?

Frankly, if this is your biggest gripe concerning the entire observation I made, i.e., how much my analogy sucks, I'm not in the least bothered by your opinion. Especially when it's dependent upon how you answer the question above.

I'll let you in on a secret, I don't think god is real.

Of course I could be wrong, but that was my whole point. If the Christian god is real, he doesn't deserve praise and worship. He is unworthy of it.

I came to that conclusion from the stories in the bible.

E4RUMOR
10-30-2014, 05:36 AM
I'll let you in on a secret, I don't think god is real.

Of course I could be wrong, but that was my whole point. If the Christian god is real, he doesn't deserve praise and worship. He is unworthy of it.

I came to that conclusion from the stories in the bible.

I am reminded of a conversation involving Sam Harris and Dr. James White:

White:"But isn't the point that you can't second guess an Eternal Being and judge Him the way that you are?"

Silverman: "Oh no, I certainly can."

White: "You can?"

Silverman: "Oh, I certainly can."

White: "Even though you don't know what the future is. You're..How much, how much is all of knowledge..of human knowledge do you possess personally?"

Silverman: "You're asking me to judge..."

White: "I'm asking you a question, yeah."

Silverman: "How much knowledge I have?"

White: "How much ..what percentage of human knowledge do you possess?"

Silverman: "A very small percentage."

White: "Very small. And so on the basis of a small fraction of human knowledge... would you admit sir, that mankind knows a very small fraction of what there is to know?"

Silverman: "Yes."

White: "Okay. So based upon a infinitesimally small fraction of knowledge, you are willing to say you can judge the Eternal God as to what He does?"

Silverman: "Yes, I can."

You'll note Silverman has already made the admission that he knows very little knowledge in the expanse of human knowledge. However, in this hypothetical scenario where he momentarily acknowledges the existence of the God of the Bible, he STILL makes an illogical assertion: With his limited knowledge, he believes he still possesses the authority to judge the Creator of the Universe. To judge the One who possesses ALL knowledge (Past, Present, and Future. The One from whom knowledge flows.

That is a completely illogical decision. Let me tell where that decision comes from: Volition. Emotion.

You make a statement about God, claiming to deny His existence. However, your rants declare the opposite. Absinthe, due to the love of your sin, and your desire to hold on to it, you suppress the God you know created you. In effect, you HATE God.

I don't believe in the unicorn, flying spaghetti monster, Santa Clause, or the tooth fairy. I don't believe in Allah, Ra, Zeus, etc.,. Ergo, they really mean nothing to me. They stir zero emotion. We have a society that tells tales about everyone of them.. some more in depth than others - Yet you won't hear me making a rant about them. Why? Because they really don't exist. Suffice to say - You don't get angry about something which doesn't exist.

However, through scripture, God reminds you, the Universe and all in it are His. You are HIS creation. He reminds you that you are the clay, and He is the potter. He reminds you before you were formed in the womb, HE knew you. He reminds you He is the One who gave you life and breath. And you despise that.

Do to your admitting you could be wrong about everything you know (which follows your worldview), how can you judge God, anyway? It's YOUR interpretation; but according to you, that interpretation could be wrong. Why would I give any credit to your perceived attributes of God or interpretation of Scripture when you have essentially given up all knowledge?

Furthermore, God is the Ultimate Judge. Not you. I will not place you in His position and put him in the Defendant Box.

Lastly, I'm going to let YOU in on something using an analogy:

Suppose a guy loves a girl. He professes it to her by sending cards, flowers, chocolates, etc.,.

Now the girl responds, and she's says, "I like you, but only as a ..... Friend."

Any guy reading this knows that's like sticking a knife in the heart and twisting it. The guy doesn't catch the hint, and keeps persisting his love. The girl keeps denying his advances. Finally, the guy says, "I love you so much, I'm going to force you to love me!"

Does that work? Nope. Love has to be freely given. If the guy really loved the girl, what would he do? He'd let her go.

God does the same with you, Absinthe. He sent you His Son, Jesus, who died on the Cross for your sins. However, if you choose to deny Him, He'll let you. And that's real love. Letting you go on your own way, refusing to acknowledge His existence - even if it leads to your eternal separation from Him. Hell.

And what's real hell to someone who hates God? Being separated for all eternity, or being forced to spend eternity with Him?

I'd say the latter.

Rainmaker
10-30-2014, 07:57 PM
The Truth Does not conform to the ways of man or the doctrine of the world

SomeRandomGuy
10-30-2014, 08:31 PM
Lastly, I'm going to let YOU in on something using an analogy:

Suppose a guy loves a girl. He professes it to her by sending cards, flowers, chocolates, etc.,.

Now the girl responds, and she's says, "I like you, but only as a ..... Friend."

Any guy reading this knows that's like sticking a knife in the heart and twisting it. The guy doesn't catch the hint, and keeps persisting his love. The girl keeps denying his advances. Finally, the guy says, "I love you so much, I'm going to force you to love me!"

Does that work? Nope. Love has to be freely given. If the guy really loved the girl, what would he do? He'd let her go.

God does the same with you, Absinthe. He sent you His Son, Jesus, who died on the Cross for your sins. However, if you choose to deny Him, He'll let you. And that's real love. Letting you go on your own way, refusing to acknowledge His existence - even if it leads to your eternal separation from Him. Hell.

And what's real hell to someone who hates God? Being separated for all eternity, or being forced to spend eternity with Him?

I'd say the latter.

I already know where AA is going to go with this one. Truthfully it's more like God is a jealous man. He gives the girl two options. 1.) You will love and worship me or 2.) I will murder and torture you.

Using your analogy AA is the girl and rejects God. At that point God says if you won't be with me I refuse to let you be happy with anyone else. God then murders AA.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-30-2014, 08:35 PM
I am reminded of a conversation involving Sam Harris and Dr. James White:

White:"But isn't the point that you can't second guess an Eternal Being and judge Him the way that you are?"

Silverman: "Oh no, I certainly can."

White: "You can?"

Silverman: "Oh, I certainly can."

White: "Even though you don't know what the future is. You're..How much, how much is all of knowledge..of human knowledge do you possess personally?"

Silverman: "You're asking me to judge..."

White: "I'm asking you a question, yeah."

Silverman: "How much knowledge I have?"

White: "How much ..what percentage of human knowledge do you possess?"

Silverman: "A very small percentage."

White: "Very small. And so on the basis of a small fraction of human knowledge... would you admit sir, that mankind knows a very small fraction of what there is to know?"

Silverman: "Yes."

White: "Okay. So based upon a infinitesimally small fraction of knowledge, you are willing to say you can judge the Eternal God as to what He does?"

Silverman: "Yes, I can."

You'll note Silverman has already made the admission that he knows very little knowledge in the expanse of human knowledge. However, in this hypothetical scenario where he momentarily acknowledges the existence of the God of the Bible, he STILL makes an illogical assertion: With his limited knowledge, he believes he still possesses the authority to judge the Creator of the Universe. To judge the One who possesses ALL knowledge (Past, Present, and Future. The One from whom knowledge flows.

That is a completely illogical decision. Let me tell where that decision comes from: Volition. Emotion.

You make a statement about God, claiming to deny His existence. However, your rants declare the opposite. Absinthe, due to the love of your sin, and your desire to hold on to it, you suppress the God you know created you. In effect, you HATE God.

I don't believe in the unicorn, flying spaghetti monster, Santa Clause, or the tooth fairy. I don't believe in Allah, Ra, Zeus, etc.,. Ergo, they really mean nothing to me. They stir zero emotion. We have a society that tells tales about everyone of them.. some more in depth than others - Yet you won't hear me making a rant about them. Why? Because they really don't exist. Suffice to say - You don't get angry about something which doesn't exist.

However, through scripture, God reminds you, the Universe and all in it are His. You are HIS creation. He reminds you that you are the clay, and He is the potter. He reminds you before you were formed in the womb, HE knew you. He reminds you He is the One who gave you life and breath. And you despise that.

Do to your admitting you could be wrong about everything you know (which follows your worldview), how can you judge God, anyway? It's YOUR interpretation; but according to you, that interpretation could be wrong. Why would I give any credit to your perceived attributes of God or interpretation of Scripture when you have essentially given up all knowledge?

Furthermore, God is the Ultimate Judge. Not you. I will not place you in His position and put him in the Defendant Box.

Lastly, I'm going to let YOU in on something using an analogy:

Suppose a guy loves a girl. He professes it to her by sending cards, flowers, chocolates, etc.,.

Now the girl responds, and she's says, "I like you, but only as a ..... Friend."

Any guy reading this knows that's like sticking a knife in the heart and twisting it. The guy doesn't catch the hint, and keeps persisting his love. The girl keeps denying his advances. Finally, the guy says, "I love you so much, I'm going to force you to love me!"

Does that work? Nope. Love has to be freely given. If the guy really loved the girl, what would he do? He'd let her go.

God does the same with you, Absinthe. He sent you His Son, Jesus, who died on the Cross for your sins. However, if you choose to deny Him, He'll let you. And that's real love. Letting you go on your own way, refusing to acknowledge His existence - even if it leads to your eternal separation from Him. Hell.

And what's real hell to someone who hates God? Being separated for all eternity, or being forced to spend eternity with Him?

I'd say the latter.

I am judging god by his book of teachings that he supposedly left for us.
It is the only way he has ever seen fit to communicate with humanity as far as I can see.

So yes, of course I judge it and him. So do you.

If he is so smart, then why are there so many fundamental flaws in his book?

He acted as a barbaric tyrant in the Old Testament, and not much better in the New Testament.

Don't tell me that you also don't judge certain aspects of the Christain bible, because I am sure there are certain parts that you choose to ignore.

Yes, I judge the so called word of god, and I'm sure you do too. Which denomination did you choose? You made a judgement right there, didn't you?

If god is so perfect, then why can't he figure out a better way to communicate his message to us lowly mortals?

Surely a being that has all knowledge, as you claim, could have put a bible on the earth that isn't so controversial and been transcribed in so many different languages that it sparks so much disagreement. We have all these different sects of Christainity because of how the bible evolved over the development of the Christain Church.

New versions and new translations are even being written right now.

BTW, you said you don't believe in Allah. You do realize that the god of Islam and the god of Christainity are the same, don't you?

USN - Retired
10-31-2014, 01:35 PM
Here's an article on this subject from an extremely reliable media source...

http://www.theonion.com/articles/reclusive-deity-hasnt-written-a-new-book-in-2000-y,36936/

Rusty Jones
10-31-2014, 01:43 PM
BTW, you said you don't believe in Allah. You do realize that the god of Islam and the god of Christainity are the same, don't you?

Watch out; he's probably going to come back with the "moon god" thing that so many fundies actually buy into (but has been debunked time and again).

TJMAC77SP
10-31-2014, 02:11 PM
Watch out; he's probably going to come back with the "moon god" thing that so many fundies actually buy into (but has been debunked time and again).

Moon God? New one on me.

Rusty Jones
10-31-2014, 02:16 PM
Moon God? New one on me.

Take your pick:

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22moon+god%22+allah&hl=en&gbv=2&oq=&gs_l=

giggawatt
10-31-2014, 02:54 PM
Subjective.

So which is it? Is he a monstrous bully, and that's why you hate him, or does he not exist, which is why you don't believe in him?

Because that would remove the need for faith.

As do I with the myth of evolution...I mean...the theory.

I will, indeed. I'll say a nice prayer for you.

What are your thoughts on the pope's remarks regarding evolution and the big bang theory?

To me, I never thought creation and evolution were mutually exclusive. I was brought up in a Christian house hold. Regardless, I was always open to the idea that evolution was the work of God. Why couldn't it be? Everything else in the bible isn't meant to be taken literally. Why take creation literally?

Rusty Jones
10-31-2014, 03:06 PM
What are your thoughts on the pope's remarks regarding evolution and the big bang theory?

As an atheist, I could really give two shits about the Pope giving evolution and Big Bang his blessing.


To me, I never thought creation and evolution were mutually exclusive. I was brought up in a Christian house hold. Regardless, I was always open to the idea that evolution was the work of God. Why couldn't it be? Everything else in the bible isn't meant to be taken literally. Why take creation literally?

Okay, well then how do you decide what to take literally and what not to take literally? Should you not take the Ten Commandments literally? Should you not take Jesus being your Lord and Savior literally? Since there's no methodology given in the Bible for determining what should be taken literally and what shouldn't, it would seem to make sense that the whole thing was meant to be taken literally.

It seems to me that Christians saying that certain parts of the Bible shouldn't be taken literally is a way to justify keeping their faith, while accepting scientific discoveries that run contrary to it.

sandsjames
10-31-2014, 03:25 PM
What are your thoughts on the pope's remarks regarding evolution and the big bang theory?

To me, I never thought creation and evolution were mutually exclusive. I was brought up in a Christian house hold. Regardless, I was always open to the idea that evolution was the work of God. Why couldn't it be? Everything else in the bible isn't meant to be taken literally. Why take creation literally?

Well, first, I'm not Catholic so I don't pay much attention to the Pope's comments on anything.

Second, I've never thought that the two were mutually exclusive either. For instance, I believe that God created the sun. That does not negate the scientific facts about what causes the sun to act as is does.

sandsjames
10-31-2014, 03:29 PM
As an atheist, I could really give two shits about the Pope giving evolution and Big Bang his blessing.



Okay, well then how do you decide what to take literally and what not to take literally? Should you not take the Ten Commandments literally? Should you not take Jesus being your Lord and Savior literally? Since there's no methodology given in the Bible for determining what should be taken literally and what shouldn't, it would seem to make sense that the whole thing was meant to be taken literally.

It seems to me that Christians saying that certain parts of the Bible shouldn't be taken literally is a way to justify keeping their faith, while accepting scientific discoveries that run contrary to it.

I'll answer this way. I don't know which parts of the bible are literal and which are not. It's also not up to me to decide. It's up to me to use each part in a way that I can tell myself that I'm following it in a way that I truly believe is the right way. It's also not up to me to determine how others interpret the same things.

I also have no reason to believe that God's creation didn't follow the "laws of science". More importantly, my belief is that the "laws of science" were God's creation.

giggawatt
10-31-2014, 03:32 PM
As an atheist, I could really give two shits about the Pope giving evolution and Big Bang his blessing.



Okay, well then how do you decide what to take literally and what not to take literally? Should you not take the Ten Commandments literally? Should you not take Jesus being your Lord and Savior literally? Since there's no methodology given in the Bible for determining what should be taken literally and what shouldn't, it would seem to make sense that the whole thing was meant to be taken literally.

It seems to me that Christians saying that certain parts of the Bible shouldn't be taken literally is a way to justify keeping their faith, while accepting scientific discoveries that run contrary to it.

Good question. I guess, the creation/evolution of the universe and everything in it is the only thing I really made a decision about.

You won't find me entering a religion debate. I usually just question things on both sides of the argument.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-31-2014, 05:29 PM
Watch out; he's probably going to come back with the "moon god" thing that so many fundies actually buy into (but has been debunked time and again).

If he knows about it, I doubt he even knows that the belief of Jesus as a phrophet is required in Islam.

TJMAC77SP
10-31-2014, 05:57 PM
Take your pick:

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22moon+god%22+allah&hl=en&gbv=2&oq=&gs_l=

Interesting. So a monotheistic religion shares some common traits and mythology with previous pagan religions.

Not exactly new news but the term is new to me. I guess I'm not a fundie after all.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-31-2014, 05:58 PM
Since there's no methodology given in the Bible for determining what should be taken literally and what shouldn't, it would seem to make sense that the whole thing was meant to be taken literally.

It seems to me that Christians saying that certain parts of the Bible shouldn't be taken literally is a way to justify keeping their faith, while accepting scientific discoveries that run contrary to it.

Even a users manual for a washing machine is more effective at communicating simple instructions, than the bible is.

If the bible is the literary work of the Supreme Being of the Universe, then I think we are in a world of shit.

I suspect quite a few ancient scribes dropped the ball in scribbling down the old scripture.

A perfect being would not leave such shoddy instructions in his own name, would he?

Wouldn't he have rained down fire and brimstone on us for screwing up the bible so bad?

Look what god did to Sodom and Gomorrah, and they didn't do anything half as bad as messing up his Holy Book.

They were just occasionally duping each other, and they tried to gang rape a couple of incognito angels.

How can god not hold all these churches accountable for screwing up his words?

Hmmm, don't you think it is about time for god to speak for himself?

E4RUMOR
10-31-2014, 11:19 PM
I am judging god by his book of teachings that he supposedly left for us.
It is the only way he has ever seen fit to communicate with humanity as far as I can see.

So yes, of course I judge it and him. So do you.

If he is so smart, then why are there so many fundamental flaws in his book?

He acted as a barbaric tyrant in the Old Testament, and not much better in the New Testament.

Don't tell me that you also don't judge certain aspects of the Christain bible, because I am sure there are certain parts that you choose to ignore.

Yes, I judge the so called word of god, and I'm sure you do too. Which denomination did you choose? You made a judgement right there, didn't you?

If god is so perfect, then why can't he figure out a better way to communicate his message to us lowly mortals?

Surely a being that has all knowledge, as you claim, could have put a bible on the earth that isn't so controversial and been transcribed in so many different languages that it sparks so much disagreement. We have all these different sects of Christainity because of how the bible evolved over the development of the Christain Church.

New versions and new translations are even being written right now.

BTW, you said you don't believe in Allah. You do realize that the god of Islam and the god of Christainity are the same, don't you?

In answer to some of your questions, I don't subscribe to a specific denomination of Christianity. I'm considered Non-Denominational. You're talking about doctrine - the interpretation of scripture... not scripture itself. That's why there's many different denominations of Christianity .

Allah and the God of the Bible ARE NOT the same.

I have questions about Scripture, and some things I don't understand. That much is true. However, instead of becoming extremely arrogant, I remember, "Trust the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your path."

Just because God exists doesn't mean I'm required to know everything about Him. When in doubt, I lean on Him.

Absinthe, Scripture is loaded with examples of God communicating with people directly, and their hearts were still turned from Him. You're practicing projection again. The way God communicates is not the way YOU would communicate, ergo, God must not exist, or God is not perfect, etc.,.

What blows my mind, and I'll say it again - and I notice you keep avoiding THESE particular points I bring up - If you are atheist, it means you follow a worldview which subscribes to subjective morality. If all morality is subjective, how can YOU judge the God of the Bible and pronounce with certainty for all Believers their God is corrupt, immoral, etc.?

It's YOUR opinion based upon how morality flows in the atheist worldview. However, you also admitted you could be wrong about everything you know too... so it follows you could be wrong professing to be an atheist, meaning God CAN exist in your worldview. So not only have you given up on knowledge by claiming that, but your worldview also forces you to accept your definition of what is moral (right, and wrong), as merely an opinion.

Lastly, as I mentioned before: you cannot truly hate something or someone which does not exist.




Watch out; he's probably going to come back with the "moon god" thing that so many fundies actually buy into (but has been debunked time and again).

Rusty, you gave up on knowledge a long time ago. Past discussions with you have already revealed your continual trend of self- defeating arguments, especially in the realm of Christian theology. Engaging in a full debate or discussion with you regarding this particular topic, or anything remotely associated with it would be a waste of time, and is not worthy of serious consideration. Your best bet is to stay where you are, and do your part by continuing to feed the emotional volition of self professed non-believers, so you have someone to keep you company.

Rainmaker
11-01-2014, 02:03 PM
Even a users manual for a washing machine is more effective at communicating simple instructions, than the bible is.

If the bible is the literary work of the Supreme Being of the Universe, then I think we are in a world of shit.

I suspect quite a few ancient scribes dropped the ball in scribbling down the old scripture.

A perfect being would not leave such shoddy instructions in his own name, would he?

Wouldn't he have rained down fire and brimstone on us for screwing up the bible so bad?

Look what god did to Sodom and Gomorrah, and they didn't do anything half as bad as messing up his Holy Book.

They were just occasionally duping each other, and they tried to gang rape a couple of incognito angels.

How can god not hold all these churches accountable for screwing up his words?

Hmmm, don't you think it is about time for god to speak for himself?

"To you it has been given to know the mystery of God, but to those outside, everything is in parables." (Mark 4)

It's not supposed to be simple as washing machine instructions. It's Designed to be a mystery. That way you have to search. If it was as easy as a reading an owners manual what fun would that be? If life was all Cherubs playing harps.. it'd be boring as Hell. These are stories told to the uninitiated. You have to admit God Smiting a bunch of pervert fags for trying to rape incognito angels makes for pretty good theater.

"Great indeed is the Mystery of our religion."

You're a smart dude. and The kingdom is within...so, look deeper into the hidden meaning.

The Truth does not answer to Reason.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Truth


you've unplugged yourself from the evangelical nut jobs.. we're all running the race and the race is long...don't quit running as soon as you finish the beginning... Gno-mesayin?..

Absinthe Anecdote
11-01-2014, 09:04 PM
In answer to some of your questions, I don't subscribe to a specific denomination of Christianity. I'm considered Non-Denominational. You're talking about doctrine - the interpretation of scripture... not scripture itself. That's why there's many different denominations of Christianity .

Yes, I've noticed that most non-denominational churches don't really get into scripture that much.**They look at the story of Jesus in a vacuum, and rarely connect it to the Old Testament.

By the way, the reason that doctrine derived from the interpretation of scripture is so problematic, is because the scripture isn't holy, or divine. It is merely folk lore.




Allah and the God of the Bible ARE NOT the same.



Oh!**How wrong you are...

Christianity arose from Judaism, the Jewish faith traces back to the God of Abraham, as does the Islamic faith.

That is why Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are commonly called the Abrahamic Religions.

The Muslim God, like the Jewish God, initially demanded that Abraham sacrifice a son. But the Muslim God wanted Abraham’s son Ishmael, not Isaac, who Jewish tradition holds was offered as a the sacrifice.

There is no Trinity in Muslim tradition. Jesus was a prophet, but no more divine than other prophets.
For Muslims, all true prophets in Jewish and Christian traditions were actually Muslim because they knew to submit correctly to God. Differences between Muslim, Jewish and Christian interpretations of God are due to errors that crept into the other two faiths, according to Islamic teachings.

I can see how much you focus on your religion's history and relevance in that non-denominational church.

This is basic stuff, you should know this.



I have questions about Scripture, and some things I don't understand. That much is true. However, instead of becoming extremely arrogant, I remember, "Trust the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your path."

So you stop trying to understand what is going on in that scripture, and say a silly prayer. Is that about the size of it?

Next time, how about challenging yourself to learn more about your god's scripture, the history of it, and it's relevance to the modern world.




Just because God exists doesn't mean I'm required to know everything about Him. When in doubt, I lean on Him.

How about at least learning about the history of your scripture, how it came into being.

Learn about the history of Christianity; how the early Christian church developed is a fascinating story.

Aren't you curious?**




Absinthe, Scripture is loaded with examples of God communicating with people directly, and their hearts were still turned from Him.

Why did he stop communicating directly? Why did he turn to having humans write down his stories. If he divinely inspired these stories, then why aren't they better? Why does so much confusion and controversy surround their transcription and translation?

Could it be that God is just a character from Bronze Age folklore?




You're practicing projection again. The way God communicates is not the way YOU would communicate, ergo, God must not exist, or God is not perfect, etc.,.

I have no idea what practicing projection is. Do you mean that I'm trying to forecast the future?

So how does God communicate? Through ancient texts, and through people's hearts?

For a perfect, all-powerful being, he certainly is ambiguous, isn't he?

Couldn't it be he is just another tall tale from folk lore, like Paul Bunyan and Babe, the Blue Ox?



What blows my mind, and I'll say it again - and I notice you keep avoiding THESE particular points I bring up - If you are atheist, it means you follow a worldview which subscribes to subjective morality. If all morality is subjective, how can YOU judge the God of the Bible and pronounce with certainty for all Believers their God is corrupt, immoral, etc.?

So with God, morality ceases to be subjective?

Man, you can't even decide which particular scripture to follow, you are non-denominational. If you can't decide which particular version of the bible to follow, you expect me to believe you have mastered every single moral question?

LOL

You want me to believe that you don't wrestle with moral questions on occasion?



It's YOUR opinion based upon how morality flows in the atheist worldview. However, you also admitted you could be wrong about everything you know too... so it follows you could be wrong professing to be an atheist, meaning God CAN exist in your worldview.**So not only have you given up on knowledge by claiming that, but your worldview also forces you to accept your definition of what is moral (right, and wrong), as merely an opinion.

No, I'm open to learning new things. I haven't given up searching for knowledge.

I see no need to turning to ancient folklore as way of understanding life and the nature of the universe.

You are the one who stopped looking when you heard about the story of Jesus. As a nondenominational, you have even stopped questioning crucial parts of your faith. You simply suppress questions and doubts with silly prayers.

You know so little about what you claim to believe in.

How do I know that? I was once like you, but I decided to learn more about the bible.

Go study the bible more, and the history of Christianity, it is truly fascinating.



Lastly, as I mentioned before: you cannot truly hate something or someone which does not exist.**



The folk lore of God continues to exist, and it is that which I dislike. What I hate, is how that ancient folk lore dulls the minds of my brothers and sisters who believe it to be true.

Religion has outlived its useful purpose; the only positive thing I see emanating from today's era of churches is as civic organizations, they bring positive things to the community.

People can have fellowship and be good to one another, without God.

Besides, our modern code of laws are far morally and ethically superior to what is in the bible.

The OT God condoned slavery, and Jesus turn a blind eye to it.



Rusty, you gave up on knowledge a long time ago. Past discussions with you have already revealed your continual trend of self- defeating arguments, especially in the realm of Christian theology. Engaging in a full debate or discussion with you regarding this particular topic, or anything remotely associated with it would be a waste of time, and is not worthy of serious consideration. Your best bet is to stay where you are, and do your part by continuing to feed the emotional volition of self professed non-believers, so you have someone to keep you company.

Rusty,

He's not going to be "duped" into a conversation with you.

In essence, he told you to go "Dupe Yourself!"

I imagine that it is the kind of duping that happened in the PFC Pemberton case.

I'm not sure how you could do that to yourself, but I'm sure you'll figure it out. :)

Rusty Jones
11-01-2014, 09:42 PM
Rusty, you gave up on knowledge a long time ago. Past discussions with you have already revealed your continual trend of self- defeating arguments, especially in the realm of Christian theology.

Oh boy, with all of your piss poor arguments where you've done nothing but repeat yourself in terms of how the Bible was to be interpreted, and then walked away with a pout on your face; it comes as no shocker that you're going to take a pot shot at that, no doubt while reminiscing on your own frustration resulting from it.

Nice try... but I'm gonna have to ask you to go take a seat somewhere with that.


Engaging in a full debate or discussion with you regarding this particular topic, or anything remotely associated with it would be a waste of time, and is not worthy of serious consideration.

It's a waste of time for you, because your tactics simply don't work. They didn't work in previous threads, and they're not working in this one.


Your best bet is to stay where you are, and do your part by continuing to feed the emotional volition of self professed non-believers, so you have someone to keep you company.

Before we talk about emotion, let's talk about "giving up on knowledge," something that religion - especially the Abrahamic religions (to which both Christianity and Judaism belong - is all about. When it comes to all the knowledge that there is to be had, religion sums it up in its respective book; in the case of Christianity, the Bible. Karl Marx one stated, "Religion is the impotence of the human mind to deal with occurrences it cannot understand."

Science takes on those occurrences head-on. It doesn't give up by pulling answers out of its ass, and simply accepting those arbitrary "answers" as "fact." That's what religion - and in this case, Christianity - is all about.

Onto the emotional aspect of it; a couple of the emotionally based arguments you've given:

1. Your assertion that AA believes in God. Maybe you can't imagine a world without your God. Maybe you can't comprehend how others can live in a world without your God.

2. Your assertion that God and Allah are not the same. You denied this, and then gave no explanation. Why not? This is simply based on the desire of some Christians - like yourself - to not have any kinship with Islam. Maybe you did have an explanation, and maybe that explanation was going to be the "moon god" argument that I beat you to... hence your frustration laced response to me.

E4RUMOR
11-02-2014, 02:42 AM
A lot of interesting counter-arguments to the points I made.

But you could be wrong about everything you know. So you can't point out anything with certainty. That's the person I'm dealing with. With that being said, why would I attempt to reason with someone who has the subconscious belief everything they know could be false? Essentially giving up true knowledge concerning everything they have learned thus far?

Maybe you're not understanding that.

The problem is nothing you have told me is new. Perhaps you believe you're educating me, but the fact of the matter is you have have no idea what I know. You don't know my level of knowledge concerning the scriptures, comparisons to other religions, and why I say with certainty the God of the Bible is not the same as the god of the Koran.

You think my lack of in-depth explanation behind my statements is a result of ignorance. In fact, it's not. It's simply a resignation to your mindset.

I believe "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge", and that's foreign to you. If I believe you start with God for knowledge, and not the opposite, i.e,. attempt to reason to God - You can't grasp that. It's asinine in your worldview.

You refuse to submit to the God you know exists, and therefore, no matter what I say - It will never be enough to convince you otherwise. You have already resigned your mind and heart to suppress what you know to be true.

And by your own admission, even if there was evidences to convince you otherwise, it wouldn't make a bit of difference. You hate God. So what good is evidence in that case? It's worth nothing! The goal of a Believer is not to convince you what you know is true. The goal of the Believer is to tell you the gospel of Christ. Which I have already done, and which you already know as well.

I will tell you this, however. You never were a real Christian. Oh, you may have been going through the motions, and going to Church, etc.,. However, a real Christian recognizes the power of God and all His attributes: All powerful, all knowing, etc.,. Ergo, it's illogical to turn from the one you once professed had all knowledge and turn to your own level of knowledge for truth. If you really were a Christian, how can you even essentially place yourself in the position of God, and dismiss Him altogether? Real Christians don't do that.

You claim to be in search of knowledge. However, if your heart is darkened to truth - which is an essential element to knowledge, then you're being intellectually dishonest, as you would be willing to dismiss any evidence that does not coincide with your desire to suppress what you know to be true.

In closing, Apologists always use the following verse as a reason why they debate and argue what they believe: "Always be ready to give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you." 1 Peter 3:15. However, a lot of them leave out the first part. In its entirety it reads: "but honor the Messiah as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you."

I set apart Christ as Lord first. I start with God. If I can't get past the God part with you, we can't get into the reasoning - and that's why discussing anything further in the theological realm is pointless.

The Lord is my judge, and He will judge my witness here.

You can judge me as well. I'm merely an imperfect human being, the same as you. I'm not better than anyone here. The only thing that differentiates you and I is our certainty on the existence of God. More specifically, the God of the Bible. The God who sent His Son Jesus to be the ultimate sacrifice for all remission of sin and unworthiness. The God who loves me and has a plan for me. I know God exists because I chose to follow Him. You don't believe God exists, because you choose to suppress the truth, and opt not to follow Him.

Absinthe, I'm going to pray for you as soon as I finish typing this. That may not mean anything to you, and that's okay. I wish you the best in your endeavors and your quest for truth, and maybe a seed has been planted.

I am finished with this particular discussion.

God bless and Semper Fidelis.

Mike.

Absinthe Anecdote
11-02-2014, 11:57 AM
A lot of interesting counter-arguments to the points I made.

But you could be wrong about everything you know. So you can't point out anything with certainty. That's the person I'm dealing with. With that being said, why would I attempt to reason with someone who has the subconscious belief everything they know could be false? Essentially giving up true knowledge concerning everything they have learned thus far?

Maybe you're not understanding that.

The problem is nothing you have told me is new. Perhaps you believe you're educating me, but the fact of the matter is you have have no idea what I know. You don't know my level of knowledge concerning the scriptures, comparisons to other religions, and why I say with certainty the God of the Bible is not the same as the god of the Koran.

You think my lack of in-depth explanation behind my statements is a result of ignorance. In fact, it's not. It's simply a resignation to your mindset.

I believe "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge", and that's foreign to you. If I believe you start with God for knowledge, and not the opposite, i.e,. attempt to reason to God - You can't grasp that. It's asinine in your worldview.

You refuse to submit to the God you know exists, and therefore, no matter what I say - It will never be enough to convince you otherwise. You have already resigned your mind and heart to suppress what you know to be true.

And by your own admission, even if there was evidences to convince you otherwise, it wouldn't make a bit of difference. You hate God. So what good is evidence in that case? It's worth nothing! The goal of a Believer is not to convince you what you know is true. The goal of the Believer is to tell you the gospel of Christ. Which I have already done, and which you already know as well.

I will tell you this, however. You never were a real Christian. Oh, you may have been going through the motions, and going to Church, etc.,. However, a real Christian recognizes the power of God and all His attributes: All powerful, all knowing, etc.,. Ergo, it's illogical to turn from the one you once professed had all knowledge and turn to your own level of knowledge for truth. If you really were a Christian, how can you even essentially place yourself in the position of God, and dismiss Him altogether? Real Christians don't do that.

You claim to be in search of knowledge. However, if your heart is darkened to truth - which is an essential element to knowledge, then you're being intellectually dishonest, as you would be willing to dismiss any evidence that does not coincide with your desire to suppress what you know to be true.

In closing, Apologists always use the following verse as a reason why they debate and argue what they believe: "Always be ready to give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you." 1 Peter 3:15. However, a lot of them leave out the first part. In its entirety it reads: "but honor the Messiah as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you."

I set apart Christ as Lord first. I start with God. If I can't get past the God part with you, we can't get into the reasoning - and that's why discussing anything further in the theological realm is pointless.

The Lord is my judge, and He will judge my witness here.

You can judge me as well. I'm merely an imperfect human being, the same as you. I'm not better than anyone here. The only thing that differentiates you and I is our certainty on the existence of God. More specifically, the God of the Bible. The God who sent His Son Jesus to be the ultimate sacrifice for all remission of sin and unworthiness. The God who loves me and has a plan for me. I know God exists because I chose to follow Him. You don't believe God exists, because you choose to suppress the truth, and opt not to follow Him.

Absinthe, I'm going to pray for you as soon as I finish typing this. That may not mean anything to you, and that's okay. I wish you the best in your endeavors and your quest for truth, and maybe a seed has been planted.

I am finished with this particular discussion.

God bless and Semper Fidelis.

Mike.

After spending a good part of my life going to churches and talking to people like you, I'd say I'm qualified to take a guess at your level of knowledge about Christianity.

Especially, when your posts indicate a person with so very little knowledge of religion.

I even spent a few months in one of your non-denominational churches.

You've probably never even read the entire bible. I feel very confident making that estimate.

Yet, you'll talk about what a "real" Christian would do. You can't even sort out crucial aspects of your faith, thus you go to a watered down non-denominational church.

You quoted Peter, do you even know who he was? Do you know what he did for the early church, when he lived, the places he went to, or what happened to him?

I'm guessing you don't.

Maybe it is I who planted a seed here.

SomeRandomGuy
11-03-2014, 07:33 PM
I will tell you this, however. You never were a real Christian. Oh, you may have been going through the motions, and going to Church, etc.,. However, a real Christian recognizes the power of God and all His attributes: All powerful, all knowing, etc.,. Ergo, it's illogical to turn from the one you once professed had all knowledge and turn to your own level of knowledge for truth. If you really were a Christian, how can you even essentially place yourself in the position of God, and dismiss Him altogether? Real Christians don't do that.

This is a very strange thing to say. You believe that God has given us all freewill correct? As part of that freewill we are surely allowed to try out being a christian. It sounds like AA has in fact tried out being a christian. He then exercised his free will to not be a christian anymore. You saying that he never was a christian makes it sound like there is no such thing as being a christian. Are there not countless examples in the Bible of people who were christians but then sinned and never repented? Were they not ever really christians? Your statement seems to conflict with what the Bible says. Why can't you just accept the fact that AA tried out christianity, decided it wasn't for him and moved on? If you believe the literal words of the Bible AA is actually in the majority and he is supposed to be. Matthew 7:14 says, ""Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

According to the book of Matthew the gate that leads to life is small and narrow and many aren't supposed to find it.