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View Full Version : Critics blast authorities for treating beheading as case of workplace violence



Gonzo432
09-28-2014, 02:52 AM
Something new, discuss!!

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/09/27/critics-blast-authorities-for-treating-oklahoma-beheading-as-case-workplace/?intcmp=latestnews

garhkal
09-28-2014, 05:20 AM
To me that
A) he had plenty of terrorism related material on his facebook account and PC
B) had recently converted and was actively trying to convert others to islam
should push this into terrorism not 'work place violence'. BUT i fear that just like fort hood, the govt will push to keep it classed as WPV.

Capt Alfredo
09-28-2014, 10:40 AM
To me that
A) he had plenty of terrorism related material on his facebook account and PC
B) had recently converted and was actively trying to convert others to islam
should push this into terrorism not 'work place violence'. BUT i fear that just like fort hood, the govt will push to keep it classed as WPV.

Help me out here. What's the difference? Why do you "fear" it will be classified as workplace violence? Just because a Muslim commits a crime, that doesn't make it terrorism. Have we seen that this person has any contacts with terror groups? Have we seen that he was part of a group dedicated to terror? Or did the guy get pissed that he got fired? By definition, violence occurred in the workplace. What's the difference, in this case?

sandsjames
09-28-2014, 10:57 AM
Help me out here. What's the difference? Why do you "fear" it will be classified as workplace violence? Just because a Muslim commits a crime, that doesn't make it terrorism. Have we seen that this person has any contacts with terror groups? Have we seen that he was part of a group dedicated to terror? Or did the guy get pissed that he got fired? By definition, violence occurred in the workplace. What's the difference, in this case?

I agree with you, for a change. The purpose of terrorism is to instill fear in to a large group of people for a cause. In my eyes, that wasn't the purpose of this killing. It was, at most, a copycat, who killed someone he was pissed at. He had no larger purpose than that.

That's what separates this case from the Ft. Hood case. Fort Hood didn't happen as a personal thing. It was someone killing for, what he believed, a larger cause.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
09-28-2014, 11:47 AM
Perhaps a stretch or at least premature to label this as terrorism. That said, I find it interesting 'some' liberals will balk at the hint of terrorism, regardless of its apparent connection to Islam, but immediately throw down the race card for any white on black violence, without consideration of any real facts whatsoever. Hypocrisy at its best.

efmbman
09-28-2014, 12:46 PM
The fact that some are trying to link this act to terrorism could be a result of terrorism since the person committing the act was probably influenced by a terrorist group (copy-cat). But that's the extent of the terrorism link.

Stalwart
09-28-2014, 01:19 PM
BUT i fear that just like fort hood, the govt will push to keep it classed as WPV.

Do you think the government has more interest in this not being labeled as terrorism?


Just because a Muslim commits a crime, that doesn't make it terrorism. Have we seen that this person has any contacts with terror groups? Have we seen that he was part of a group dedicated to terror?

Need the guy doing the beheading have been in contact with a terrorist organization for it to be terrorism?


Or did the guy get pissed that he got fired?

An important factor in how this gets classified.



By definition, violence occurred in the workplace. What's the difference, in this case?

I think one of the things to consider that does matter about whether this (based on facts that are not really out yet) is whether this guy was targeting one person or if his actions were motivated by religious, political and/or ideological factors. What his motivation was (regardless of him being a Muslim etc. or where the action actually took place) is the key to how it is looked at.

Also, I think there is a concern that this could have been a copy-cat ... copying actions he has heard about from overseas ... which would lean it (IMO) to terrorism.

Absinthe Anecdote
09-28-2014, 01:23 PM
I doubt this guy received training or direction from a terror group outside the US. From what has be released about him, it sounds like he was inspired by current events in Syria and radical Islamist propaganda in the method he chose (beheading).

If the guy went to a place other than his job, after having just being fired, I might be more suspicious of a terror link.

This particular incident sounds exactly like workplace violence to me.

Now, unrelated to this incident, I think the future of terrorism in the US is going to be small but extremely violent and gory attacks.

Unfortunately, the copycat, or lone wolf terrorist is hard to defend against.

I predict the the future of terrorist attacks on US soil will be low tech type attacks.

Mall shootings, beheadings, snipers and attacks that require little training or support from foreign groups.

Bombings are too hard for them in the US, as are attacks that require a lot of coordination.

efmbman
09-28-2014, 01:25 PM
Also, I think there is a concern that this could have been a copy-cat ... copying actions he has heard about from overseas ... which would lean it (IMO) to terrorism.

The copy-cat factor does not lean it toward terrorism in my opinion. The person that did this may think he is a terrorist, or he may desire to be considered a terrorist, or he may just want the real terrorists to think he is a terrorist. But that does not necessarily make it terrorism.

I may be misunderstanding your point, however. Can you elaborate?

Stalwart
09-28-2014, 01:51 PM
The copy-cat factor does not lean it toward terrorism in my opinion. The person that did this may think he is a terrorist, or he may desire to be considered a terrorist, or he may just want the real terrorists to think he is a terrorist. But that does not necessarily make it terrorism.

I may be misunderstanding your point, however. Can you elaborate?

If he was copying actions of terrorists overseas who have also beheaded victims, and his motivation was to be 'like' them or if he has the same goals and used the same method he sees them using then based on our 'traditional' definitions of terrorism "the use of violence, or threat of violence to achieve an end that is either religious, political or ideological" while additionally targeting non-combatants etc. then I would argue this leans more towards terrorism than work-place violence. I don't think it is at all necessary for an individual to be a 'card-carrying member' of al Qaeda or another group for them to commit an act of terrorism.

All that said, I don't know what his motivations were or have much background on it so haven't really made an opinion.

Absinthe Anecdote
09-28-2014, 02:37 PM
Clearly what needs to happen is for legions of people carrying those yellow flags with a coiled rattlesnake on them to start calling for concealed carry permits.

Furthermore, country music listeners should see this as a justification to start taking 8 year olds to gun ranges and fire fully automatic Uzis, under proper supervision, of course.

Plus, it wouldn't hurt if we passed legislation that Hollywood make nothing but shitty cowboy movies, just like the good old days.

While we are at it, let's try to overreact to news headlines a bit more. After all, there is a war against Christianity.

Now get to it! Equip yourselves with minimal information and pepper Facebook and web forums with idiotic and uninformed opinions.

If anyone objects, accuse them of being hyperbolic.

Most importantly, destroy what little sense of humor you might have by putting a giant stick up your ass.

Now get out there and make it happen! If you need me, I'll be at HQ with Governor Palin.

TJMAC77SP
09-28-2014, 03:31 PM
Clearly what needs to happen is for legions of people carrying those yellow flags with a coiled rattlesnake on them to start calling for concealed carry permits.

Furthermore, country music listeners should see this as a justification to start taking 8 year olds to gun ranges and fire fully automatic Uzis, under proper supervision, of course.

Plus, it wouldn't hurt if we passed legislation that Hollywood make nothing but shitty cowboy movies, just like the good old days.

While we are at it, let's try to overreact to news headlines a bit more. After all, there is a war against Christianity.

Now get to it! Equip yourselves with minimal information and pepper Facebook and web forums with idiotic and uninformed opinions.

If anyone objects, accuse them of being hyperbolic.

Most importantly, destroy what little sense of humor you might have by putting a giant stick up your ass.

Now get out there and make it happen! If you need me, I'll be at HQ with Governor Palin.

Someone has definitely had their feel-goods hurt.....................

Nice multi-faceted tie-in references though. Actually funny. I particularly like that you got your well worn dig in about country music. One Direction would be proud of their number one fan.

For the record this crime fits the definitions of both types of crime and in the end it really doesn't matter what you label it.

Rainmaker
09-28-2014, 03:59 PM
Something new, discuss!!

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/09/27/critics-blast-authorities-for-treating-oklahoma-beheading-as-case-workplace/?intcmp=latestnews

Pay no attention to reality folks. Islam is a Religion of Peace. The best thing to do is to ignore that it's happening. Nothing to fear. Eric "My People" Holder is on his way and will get to the bottom of this. The white deputy that shot the perp is Raciss. Reverend Jesse and Reverend AL be on the way to lead the Yoofs of OKC in protest (and Looting). All Knives and guns should be banned by the government immediately.

garhkal
09-28-2014, 06:06 PM
Perhaps a stretch or at least premature to label this as terrorism. That said, I find it interesting 'some' liberals will balk at the hint of terrorism, regardless of its apparent connection to Islam, but immediately throw down the race card for any white on black violence, without consideration of any real facts whatsoever. Hypocrisy at its best.

Exactly. On the race side, liberals (and the liberal media) are quick to say something was racially motivated when anything bad happens to minorities, but even WHEN presented with facts of someone's allegiance to terror (Hassan) they are loathe to call it what it is, terror. Which is what i fear they will do again, and with the facts as currently known, seems to me to be at least LINKED to terrorism.


Do you think the government has more interest in this not being labeled as terrorism?


Since for a few months now they have been trying to play down how bad things are over seas as well as how bad things are getting here, yes i DO think its in their interest for this to not be labeled terrorism.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
09-28-2014, 06:21 PM
All, can we please just get past these elections before we decide if our peaceful Islamist is a terrorist or not?

Capt Alfredo
09-29-2014, 09:58 AM
Perhaps a stretch or at least premature to label this as terrorism. That said, I find it interesting 'some' liberals will balk at the hint of terrorism, regardless of its apparent connection to Islam, but immediately throw down the race card for any white on black violence, without consideration of any real facts whatsoever. Hypocrisy at its best.

Let's say all that you postulate is true. What difference does it make if this apparently isolated crime is labeled "terrorism" or not? The doctrinal definition of terrorism would lead a reasonable person to conclude this was NOT a case of terrorism, since the victims were former co-workers whom he knew and likely targeted for retribution due to his firing.

In the case of Hassan, sure, that would appear to be terrorism. But so what? Those people aren't going to come back to life just because their murder was classified in another way.

Would you agree that white people killing black people (or blacks killing whites, if you prefer) due to racial animus is also terrorism? Does the motive bring them back to life?

I'm still trying to figure out what Gharkal "fears" will happen if the right adjective isn't applied to this crime.

Capt Alfredo
09-29-2014, 09:59 AM
The fact that some are trying to link this act to terrorism could be a result of terrorism since the person committing the act was probably influenced by a terrorist group (copy-cat). But that's the extent of the terrorism link.

The method this idiot took would appear to have been influenced by terrorist acts, but the motive does not appear to have been due to any Muslim radicalization. It looks like plain, old-fashioned retribution for being fired.

Capt Alfredo
09-29-2014, 10:01 AM
Need the guy doing the beheading have been in contact with a terrorist organization for it to be terrorism?

No. It's all about the motive.

Capt Alfredo
09-29-2014, 10:04 AM
Pay no attention to reality folks. Islam is a Religion of Peace. The best thing to do is to ignore that it's happening. Nothing to fear. Eric "My People" Holder is on his way and will get to the bottom of this. The white deputy that shot the perp is Raciss. Reverend Jesse and Reverend AL be on the way to lead the Yoofs of OKC in protest (and Looting). All Knives and guns should be banned by the government immediately.

What does any of this blather have to do with the actual case at hand? If the guy was a terrorist, he would have been perpetrating his activity for maximum fear. He went after former co-workers who just fired him. When a postal worker shoots up the office, is that Christian terrorism just because he happened to go to church every once in a while? If he had chosen to burn them alive would he somehow be a member of the Inquisition reborn?

Capt Alfredo
09-29-2014, 10:06 AM
Exactly. On the race side, liberals (and the liberal media) are quick to say something was racially motivated when anything bad happens to minorities, but even WHEN presented with facts of someone's allegiance to terror (Hassan) they are loathe to call it what it is, terror. Which is what i fear they will do again, and with the facts as currently known, seems to me to be at least LINKED to terrorism.

Why fear? What's the difference in this case? Is that lady's head going to grow back attached if someone clicks their heels together and chats "terrorist" three times? It's fucking irrelevant.

Stalwart
09-29-2014, 12:52 PM
Let's say all that you postulate is true. What difference does it make if this apparently isolated crime is labeled "terrorism" or not? The doctrinal definition of terrorism would lead a reasonable person to conclude this was NOT a case of terrorism, since the victims were former co-workers whom he knew and likely targeted for retribution due to his firing.

In the case of Hassan, sure, that would appear to be terrorism. But so what? Those people aren't going to come back to life just because their murder was classified in another way.

I would agree, how the crime is classified (terrorism, workplace violence, straight-up murder) does nothing to change the fact that people died and won't be coming home to their families.

What the classification does do is allow for analytical trends in crime in our country and to determine (if this was terrorism) if terrorists (organized or not) are operating in the United States, if persons in the U.S. are being swayed into acting on extremist reliefs that align with terrorist motivations etc.

Another aspect of this is money ... that which makes the world go 'round. If this is classified as terrorism, and it is deduced that the potential for homeland terrorism by persons already here is increasing that instantly gives many local & state law enforcement and associated organizations an 'in' to federal funds specifically appropriated in the budget (301A) and appropriated funds (301B) for counter terrorism efforts and post-incident support.

Rainmaker
09-29-2014, 02:33 PM
What does any of this blather have to do with the actual case at hand? If the guy was a terrorist, he would have been perpetrating his activity for maximum fear. He went after former co-workers who just fired him. When a postal worker shoots up the office, is that Christian terrorism just because he happened to go to church every once in a while? If he had chosen to burn them alive would he somehow be a member of the Inquisition reborn?

Islam is a Religion of Peace.... No one knows for sure this Lunatic's motivation.... and Da Nile is a really big river in Egypt with Lotsa Brainwashed, Politically Correct, Morons sailing down it. ..

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/okla-beheading-suspect-filled-facebook-terrorist-messages-article-1.1954910

We're spending $50 Billion plus a year for the 16 Intelligence agencies to spy on the American public. But, somehow this radicalized felon fell through the cracks, and we're supposed to think no one knew about it.

It's time to step away from the left/right- Neocon/Neoliberal paradigm and throw these assholes that have destroyed our country out. We need leaders not afraid to speak the truth. That unlike Christianity's Golden rule, Sharia law is not compatible with the United States Constitution.

Rusty Jones
09-29-2014, 03:00 PM
That's the pot calling the kettle black; more lives have still been lost to Christianity than Islam.

I've given it some real deep thought: Martin Luther King once said something alluding to how the most segregated hour in America is during church service on Sundays - and he said this WHILE Jim Crow was still in effect.

To this day, that still continues to be true.

But then, also take this into consideration: there are two important things that Christianity and Islam have in common that separate them from (mostly) all other religions of the world:

1. They're not "ethnic-based" based religions (for example, like Judaism) that have ethnic requirements for membership, be they de jure or de facto requirements. In addition, they're also not based on worship of deities that are specific to any ethnic group (like Hinduism or Shintoism).

2. They both actively seek converts.

Take what Martin Luther King said into account, and combine that with #1... and I think that there's a bigger picture to be seen. Even though many ethnicities are Christian in the United States, each ethnic group actually tailors Christianity to the cultural norms of that ethnicity. In other words, it really looks like... religion is SUPPOSED to be ethnic-based. If that's the case, then that would make both Christianity and Islam "unnatural" religions (and I'm just throwing that term out there, feel free to give a better one).

#2 Kind of ties in with #1, because if there's no ethnic requirement (whether de jure or de facto) to be Christian or Muslim, then it's only natural that these two religions seek converts since they believe that their god is the one true god; and that anyone who doesn't worship him will suffer eternal damnation.

Both Christianity and Islam have the makings for the violence we've seem from both of them over the centuries. They're both cut from the same cloth.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
09-29-2014, 03:37 PM
That's the pot calling the kettle black; more lives have still been lost to Christianity than Islam.

I've given it some real deep thought: Martin Luther King once said something alluding to how the most segregated hour in America is during church service on Sundays - and he said this WHILE Jim Crow was still in effect.

To this day, that still continues to be true.

But then, also take this into consideration: there are two important things that Christianity and Islam have in common that separate them from (mostly) all other religions of the world:

1. They're not "ethnic-based" based religions (for example, like Judaism) that have ethnic requirements for membership, be they de jure or de facto requirements. In addition, they're also not based on worship of deities that are specific to any ethnic group (like Hinduism or Shintoism).

2. They both actively seek converts.

Take what Martin Luther King said into account, and combine that with #1... and I think that there's a bigger picture to be seen. Even though many ethnicities are Christian in the United States, each ethnic group actually tailors Christianity to the cultural norms of that ethnicity. In other words, it really looks like... religion is SUPPOSED to be ethnic-based. If that's the case, then that would make both Christianity and Islam "unnatural" religions (and I'm just throwing that term out there, feel free to give a better one).

#2 Kind of ties in with #1, because if there's no ethnic requirement (whether de jure or de facto) to be Christian or Muslim, then it's only natural that these two religions seek converts since they believe that their god is the one true god; and that anyone who doesn't worship him will suffer eternal damnation.

Both Christianity and Islam have the makings for the violence we've seem from both of them over the centuries. They're both cut from the same cloth.

Thanks for the history lesson. Obama stated that ISIS isn't really Islamic. I'll go with that...as long as we can agree that past atrocities committed by Christians had nothing to do with Christianity. Fair enough?

TJMAC77SP
09-29-2014, 03:40 PM
Since Christianity is a thousand years older than Islam, the whole body count thing is a bit disingenuous.

The US held more slaves at the height of that period than are held in Sudan today. Does the Sudan get a pass?

Let's deal with the present and the facts at hand.

Rusty Jones
09-29-2014, 03:44 PM
Thanks for the history lesson. Obama stated that ISIS isn't really Islamic. I'll go with that...as long as we can agree that past atrocities committed by Christians had nothing to do with Christianity. Fair enough?

Right, so... the Crusades, the Salem Witch Trials, the Spanish Inquisition, Queen Mary I, pre-teen girls being coerced into polygamous marriages and raped, etc, etc... nothing to do with Christianity, right?

Someone of a particular religion doing something doesn't mean that it has something to do with their religion, but it DOES when their religion is the motive.

Rusty Jones
09-29-2014, 03:50 PM
Since Christianity is a thousand years older than Islam, the whole body count thing is a bit disingenuous.

It's only 600 years older than Islam. If you measured this on "body count per year" basis by taking the number of bodies and dividing it by the number of years the religion as existed, do you really think Islam will have the higher number?


The US held more slaves at the height of that period than are held in Sudan today. Does the Sudan get a pass?

Let's deal with the present and the facts at hand.

Sure. Afterall, history is too inconvenient when Christians want to continue pointing fingers.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
09-29-2014, 04:28 PM
It's only 600 years older than Islam. If you measured this on "body count per year" basis by taking the number of bodies and dividing it by the number of years the religion as existed, do you really think Islam will have the higher number?



Sure. Afterall, history is too inconvenient when Christians want to continue pointing fingers.

Honestly, it doesn't matter what Christians did hundreds of years ago. What matters is that today we have a problem with beheadings, flying planes into skyscrapers, etc, all in the name of Islam.

TJMAC77SP
09-29-2014, 04:31 PM
It's only 600 years older than Islam. If you measured this on "body count per year" basis by taking the number of bodies and dividing it by the number of years the religion as existed, do you really think Islam will have the higher number?

Ok, 600 years.............can you show your math please?



Sure. Afterall, history is too inconvenient when Christians want to continue pointing fingers.

And comparing the two religions is too convenient when one wants to dismiss current legitimate concerns.

No one is disputing that all religions have a bloody history. I am more concerned with what is happening now and how to address it.

MERC8401
09-29-2014, 04:36 PM
You radicals are funny. Try toning down the rhetoric. Oh...and it wasn't terrorism. There is at least one beheading in the US every year...seems we are just hitting our average for 2014. So calm down.

USN - Retired
09-29-2014, 04:38 PM
there are two important things that Christianity and Islam have in common that separate them from (mostly) all other religions of the world:

1. They're not "ethnic-based" based religions (for example, like Judaism) that have ethnic requirements for membership, be they de jure or de facto requirements.

That statement is incorrect.

The four largest religions of the world are Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism.

Hinduism (15% of world population) and Buddhism (7.1% of the world population) do not have any ethnic requirements for membership.

TJMAC77SP
09-29-2014, 04:42 PM
You radicals are funny. Try toning down the rhetoric. Oh...and it wasn't terrorism. There is at least one beheading in the US every year...seems we are just hitting our average for 2014. So calm down.

Really ?!? One a year? That surprises me.

USN - Retired
09-29-2014, 04:43 PM
If you measured this on "body count per year" basis by taking the number of bodies and dividing it by the number of years the religion as existed, do you really think Islam will have the higher number?

If we go by body count per year, then the Nazis and the Communists would probably surpass Christianity and Islam.

MERC8401
09-29-2014, 04:51 PM
Really ?!? One a year? That surprises me.


I know right? Crazy. I recall a man taking hostages on a bus about a year or two ago...cut someones head clean off. Of course most of them could be mob killings and whatnot...but yea...bouts 1 a year I'd say.

Rainmaker
09-29-2014, 05:03 PM
Right, so... the Crusades, the Salem Witch Trials, the Spanish Inquisition, Queen Mary I, pre-teen girls being coerced into polygamous marriages and raped, etc, etc... nothing to do with Christianity, right?

Someone of a particular religion doing something doesn't mean that it has something to do with their religion, but it DOES when their religion is the motive.

The Crusades were launched in response to centuries of Islamic expansion by the sword, which ushered the dark ages into Europe.

Rusty Jones
09-29-2014, 05:06 PM
Ok, 600 years.............can you show your math please?

The prophet Muhammed had his "visions" in AD 610. He died in AD 632. That's 600 years after the life of Jesus.


And comparing the two religions is too convenient when one wants to dismiss current legitimate concerns.

Yep. Nevermind what I did, let's talk about YOU'RE doing!




1. They're not "ethnic-based" based religions (for example, like Judaism) that have ethnic requirements for membership, be they de jure or de facto requirements.That statement is incorrect.

The four largest religions of the world are Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism.

Hinduism (15% of world population) and Buddhism (7.1% of the world population) do not have any ethnic requirements for membership.

Allow me to put that statement back into the context that you took it out of:


1. They're not "ethnic-based" based religions (for example, like Judaism) that have ethnic requirements for membership, be they de jure or de facto requirements. In addition, they're also not based on worship of deities that are specific to any ethnic group (like Hinduism or Shintoism).


If we go by body count per year, then the Nazis and the Communists would probably surpass Christianity and Islam.

They're not religions. I don't know if that was a red herring, or just plain stupidity.

TJMAC77SP
09-29-2014, 05:30 PM
The prophet Muhammed had his "visions" in AD 610. He died in AD 632. That's 600 years after the life of Jesus.

I meant your 'body count by year' assertion.


Yep. Nevermind what I did, let's talk about YOU'RE doing!


No............it more like "how the fuck is what happened hundreds of years ago relevant to today?"

USN - Retired
09-29-2014, 05:37 PM
They're not religions. I don't know if that was a red herring, or just plain stupidity.

I never said that the Nazis and Communists were religions. I was just talking about the body count per year.

Are you saying that Hinduism and Buddhism are not religions? Because you said...


there are two important things that Christianity and Islam have in common that separate them from (mostly) all other religions of the world:

1. They're not "ethnic-based" based religions (for example, like Judaism) that have ethnic requirements for membership, be they de jure or de facto requirements.

And that statement of yours is incorrect (or should I say misleading?), because Hinduism (15% of world population) and Buddhism (7.1% of the world population) do not have any ethnic requirements for membership.

I didn't take anything out of context. Perhaps you just don't understand what you wrote in post #23 of this thread.

======================================


"We're not going to give up on destroying the health care system for the American people." ~Paul Ryan

Paul Ryan did make this statement, but if you watch the longer video clip you can tell it was a slip of the tongue. The sentence right before this quote he claims certain policies are destroying the healthcare system and he wants to stop those. Then this sentence just appears to be accidentally missing a few words, something along the lines of "We're not going to give up on [stopping what we believe is] destroying the health care system..."

http://quotefail.com/quote/paul-ryan-were-not-going-give-destroying-health

Rusty is still trying to mislead us. @ Rusty: Why are you trying to mislead us?

USN - Retired
09-29-2014, 05:59 PM
They're not religions. I don't know if that was a red herring, or just plain stupidity.

I won't call the Nazis a religion, but an interesting case could be made for calling Nazism a religion. (1) The Nazis had a dogma and they expected their members to believe in that dogma without question. (2) The Nazis worshiped Hitler almost as if he were a god. (3) The Nazis had ethnic requirements for membership.

Does that sound like a religion? Just askin'.

TJMAC77SP
09-29-2014, 06:18 PM
How about this is a case of workplace violence inspired by terrorism?


Credit to my son for that thought.

garhkal
09-29-2014, 06:20 PM
Another aspect of this is money ... that which makes the world go 'round. If this is classified as terrorism, and it is deduced that the potential for homeland terrorism by persons already here is increasing that instantly gives many local & state law enforcement and associated organizations an 'in' to federal funds specifically appropriated in the budget (301A) and appropriated funds (301B) for counter terrorism efforts and post-incident support.


Stal. That is an aspect i never even considered. If this IS classed as terror, now both local and state groups get more funding, but you also get different 'pots' of money opening up to other orgs for various reasons, whether more tracking or after effects.


That's the pot calling the kettle black; more lives have still been lost to Christianity than Islam.

So were the crusades ONLY Christianity's fault? Islam has no blame there?

Rusty Jones
09-29-2014, 06:24 PM
Okay, USN-Retired - it's clear that you're trying to turn this into some kind of argument that's either circular, or aimless and leading to nowhere - I'm done with you.

Rainmaker
09-29-2014, 06:56 PM
Honestly, it doesn't matter what Christians did hundreds of years ago. What matters is that today we have a problem with beheadings, flying planes into skyscrapers, etc, all in the name of Islam.

Yeah, But the Reformation was only like what?? 20- 25 generations ago? That's hardly anything in God Years...

Stalwart
09-29-2014, 06:58 PM
Stal. That is an aspect i never even considered. If this IS classed as terror, now both local and state groups get more funding, but you also get different 'pots' of money opening up to other orgs for various reasons, whether more tracking or after effects.

And that knife cuts two ways:

1. Good for local law enforcement to plug into those funds.

2. Bad for larger Federal agencies that do the heavy lifting in this arena, since those funds are finite and the pot of cash is not bottomless.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
09-29-2014, 07:04 PM
Listen people, there will be no crazy talk about domestic terrorism on Obama's watch until AFTER the mid-terms.

MitchellJD1969
09-29-2014, 07:38 PM
I won't call the Nazis a religion, but an interesting case could be made for calling Nazism a religion. (1) The Nazis had a dogma and they expected their members to believe in that dogma without question. (2) The Nazis worshiped Hitler almost as if he were a god. (3) The Nazis had ethnic requirements for membership.

Does that sound like a religion? Just askin'.

Kinda sounds like the left today....

Rainmaker
09-29-2014, 07:39 PM
Stal. That is an aspect i never even considered. If this IS classed as terror, now both local and state groups get more funding, but you also get different 'pots' of money opening up to other orgs for various reasons, whether more tracking or after effects.



So were the crusades ONLY Christianity's fault? Islam has no blame there?

Yes, That has been the meme in the Department of Education (Where only White people are allowed to be criticized for their actions) for the last 25-30 years.

Rainmaker
09-29-2014, 07:55 PM
Listen people, there will be no crazy talk about domestic terrorism on Obama's watch until AFTER the mid-terms.

some folks got beheaded...

Rainmaker
09-29-2014, 07:55 PM
Meanwhile in what's being described by the Oklahoman as "A bizarre Coincidence" Jacob Mugambi Muriithi is in custody for threatening to cut off old white ladies heads in the nursing home. All together now.... ISLAM IS A RELIGION OF PEACE...

http://newsok.com/article/5346476

Absinthe Anecdote
09-29-2014, 08:49 PM
Would it make the Christians in here feel better if I told you that your fairy tale isn't as destructive as the Islamic fairy tale?

Ok then, Christianity isn't as dangerous as Islam.

The only reason for this is because the growth of secular forms government has marginalized Christianity in the West.

Both Christianity and Islam are still the same damn fairy tale when you get down to it.

If you believe in a god that never speaks, never shows himself, and you have to take the word of another human to reveal god's intentions and desires to you, well, you are setting yourself up to be manipulated.

Now please, someone post how god talks to you, I'd really like to hear about that.

Rainmaker
09-29-2014, 08:50 PM
And that knife cuts two ways:

1. Good for local law enforcement to plug into those funds.

2. Bad for larger Federal agencies that do the heavy lifting in this arena, since those funds are finite and the pot of cash is not bottomless.

The last thing we need in this country is more Militarization of Peace Officers.

Stalwart
09-29-2014, 09:04 PM
Based on the things that are available via the 301B money pots, I don't think plugging into the funds will further militarize them. Provide them access to more 'tools' in the tool kit for inter-agency cross talk, resources & surveillance, sure ... more tools for LAV's, body armor etc ... not so much.

waveshaper2
09-30-2014, 12:35 AM
Justice Department Training Video; Terrorism versus workplace violence?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=eXRM3lFRwRI#t=0

It seems like most folks here have have successfully completed this course.

Capt Alfredo
09-30-2014, 10:39 AM
Meanwhile in what's being described by the Oklahoman as "A bizarre Coincidence" Jacob Mugambi Muriithi is in custody for threatening to cut off old white ladies heads in the nursing home. All together now.... ISLAM IS A RELIGION OF PEACE...

http://newsok.com/article/5346476

It really must hurt stretching this far out on the limb. I am not arguing that Radical Islamists are just misunderstood. Do you honestly not see the gross overgeneralization you're making here? There are roughly 1.6 BILLION Muslims in the world. Maybe 10 million Muslims worldwide are engaged in some type of "Jihad", actively or passively, which is less than 1%. The number of them actively participating in armed terrorist action is so puny as to beggar description. To paint all Muslims as terror-loving evildoers exposes the mindset of you and your ilk for what it is: sad and pathetic.

Capt Alfredo
09-30-2014, 10:42 AM
Kinda sounds like the left today....


Welcome to the board! Your high level of intellectual discourse fits right in!

Capt Alfredo
09-30-2014, 10:46 AM
I would agree, how the crime is classified (terrorism, workplace violence, straight-up murder) does nothing to change the fact that people died and won't be coming home to their families.

What the classification does do is allow for analytical trends in crime in our country and to determine (if this was terrorism) if terrorists (organized or not) are operating in the United States, if persons in the U.S. are being swayed into acting on extremist reliefs that align with terrorist motivations etc.

Another aspect of this is money ... that which makes the world go 'round. If this is classified as terrorism, and it is deduced that the potential for homeland terrorism by persons already here is increasing that instantly gives many local & state law enforcement and associated organizations an 'in' to federal funds specifically appropriated in the budget (301A) and appropriated funds (301B) for counter terrorism efforts and post-incident support.

Do you believe that this analysis is not being performed by the proper authorities? Do you believe the FBI has not been involved in this investigation?

Absinthe Anecdote
09-30-2014, 01:17 PM
Do you believe that this analysis is not being performed by the proper authorities? Do you believe the FBI has not been involved in this investigation?

The FBI has been all over this guy's entire life by now. This kind of incident gets taken seriously by our government.

It seems that the right-wing hard liners in this forum want something from our government that equates to fatwa against Islam.

TJMAC77SP
09-30-2014, 01:45 PM
I read this morning that the FBI has an open investigation so there could possibly be future charges related to terrorism. OK will indict soon, perhaps today or tomorrow.

BTW: I agree with Capt Alfredo that to paint an entire religion based on a very small minority is intellectually weak.

Rainmaker
09-30-2014, 01:48 PM
It really must hurt stretching this far out on the limb. I am not arguing that Radical Islamists are just misunderstood. Do you honestly not see the gross overgeneralization you're making here? There are roughly 1.6 BILLION Muslims in the world. Maybe 10 million Muslims worldwide are engaged in some type of "Jihad", actively or passively, which is less than 1%. The number of them actively participating in armed terrorist action is so puny as to beggar description. To paint all Muslims as terror-loving evildoers exposes the mindset of you and your ilk for what it is: sad and pathetic.

Rainmaker did not say all Muslims are Terrorist Evil doers. What he said is Islam is not a religion of peace. There is a reason this mantra is being repeated.

Now, 10 Million Jihadists!! Rainmaker wouldn't think there was that many. But, just for argument's sake, Let's take your number (10 million). So, If 10 Million Fundamentalist Christian Sepratist soldiers were getting their Midevil kill on and activly engaged in burning folks at the stake Spanish Inquisition style, what would your reaction be then? How would you expect your government to classify or react to it? Remember, Words mean things (John 1:1)....and What do you mean by "You and Your ilk"? Please define. Aparantly your hypocracy knows no bounds.

On the one hand we have our government telling us that ISIS/ISIL is the scourge of the Earth, and "the gates of hell have been opened" (This rhetoric is significant by the way) Therefore, we need to further indebt ourselves and spend Trillions more of our Treasure turning our country into a police state, and risk spilling even more our blood to keep us safe and on the other hand the southern border is wide open and we are importing hundreds of thousands of illiterate peasants that can't even spanish let alone English, and we're not allowed to vet them or ask any questions about who they are or where they're being kept because it’s "rayciss"...

Capt Alfredo
09-30-2014, 01:58 PM
Rainmaker did not say all Muslims are Terrorist Evil doers. What he said is Islam is not a religion of peace. There is a reason this mantra is being repeated.

Now, 10 Million Jihadists!! Rainmaker wouldn't think there was that many. But, just for argument's sake, Let's take your number (10 million). So, If 10 Million Fundamentalist Christian Sepratist soldiers were getting their Midevil kill on and activly engaged in burning folks at the stake Spanish Inquisition style, what would your reaction be then? How would you expect your government to classify or react to it? Remember, Words mean things (John 1:1)....and What do you mean by "You and Your ilk"? Please define. Aparantly your hypocracy knows no bounds.

On the one hand we have our government telling us that ISIS/ISIL is the scourge of the Earth, and "the gates of hell have been opened" (This rhetoric is significant by the way) Therefore, we need to further indebt ourselves and spend Trillions more of our Treasure turning our country into a police state, and risk spilling even more our blood to keep us safe and on the other hand the southern border is wide open and we are importing hundreds of thousands of illiterate peasants that can't even spanish let alone English, and we're not allowed to vet them or ask any questions about who they are or where they're being kept because it’s "rayciss"...

What does any of that have to do with how the government classifies the crime committed by the person in the original post? Absolutely nothing. Keep up with your own argument! And as far as "you and your ilk," I'm talking about you and your intellectual cohorts here who keep insisting that Islam is the source of all evil in the world and must be stopped at all costs. You and yours who continually bash away at any sort of progressive thought or policy considered in this country. You can stay stuck in the 1950s all you want.

Stalwart
09-30-2014, 03:08 PM
Do you believe that this analysis is not being performed by the proper authorities? Do you believe the FBI has not been involved in this investigation?

I think it is, I did not mean to come across that I thought it was not being performed properly so far. I would imagine that the FBI is up and down this like a fat kid on cake. My point is that if it is classified as terrorism it fits a different category of crime that local law enforcement in [pick-a-city USA] is not likely prepared to counter. Also, if this or another domestic 'copy-cat' incident is terrorism there is funding for post-incident investigative support that local law enforcement can tap into to offset costs that the typical local level government may not be budgeted for.

I know that how the crime gets classified determines which agency has the lead and drives the effort. If this is classified as workplace violence, the victim was not a federal officer / official and as I understand it this would not be a federal offense; vice if it is classified as terrorism it would be a federal offense which means different jurisdictions and different possible sentences.

TJMAC77SP
09-30-2014, 04:57 PM
I have started to look into exactly who has said what in this debacle. Other than a vague unattributed statement I can find nothing that says the federal government (FBI or DOJ) has classified this as only an act of workplace violence. No statement from either Washington or OK City.

The OK anti-terrorism is a little ambiguous in its definition of terrorism (although an argument can certainly be made that this act fits). Keep in mind the law was inspired by the OK City bombings of 1995 and political motivations were first in the minds of the writers. Religiously inspired terrorism is a product of this new generation.

“Terrorism” means an act of violence resulting in damage to property or personal injury perpetrated to coerce a civilian population or government into granting illegal political or economic demands; or conduct intended to incite violence in order to create apprehension of bodily injury or damage to property in order to coerce acivilian population or government into granting illegal political or economic demands. Peaceful picketing or boycotts and other nonviolent action shall not be considered terrorism;"

There is an acknowledged continuing investigation by the FBI so we will have to see what comes of it.

Putting aside whatever motivations would drive someone or and agency to declare in favor of one category or another I think it a little premature to throw mud at the administration (or its agencies) for having some dark motivation for silencing calls that this was terrorism.

I also think it is premature to completely dismiss the argument since I believe that if it is decided that it isn't terrorism or at least inspired by terrorism that is an ingenuous characterization and worth asking why that decision was made.

MitchellJD1969
09-30-2014, 09:33 PM
Welcome to the board! Your high level of intellectual discourse fits right in!

It's an observation...the same thing could be said of the right. If that was what I posted (about the right), I can imagine that either you would have agreed with me or not made the effort to post such a witty reply.

BTW I've been posting for a few years on MTF.

MitchellJD1969
09-30-2014, 09:47 PM
The FBI has been all over this guy's entire life by now. This kind of incident gets taken seriously by our government.

It seems that the right-wing hard liners in this forum want something from our government that equates to fatwa against Islam.

Don't know about the rest of you having heard, but its been put out to be extra cautious and be aware of your surroundings. It seems ISIL (ISIS...freeks and deaks..ect..) have encouraged the true believers to behead military members or other acts of violence. Take it for what you will but I'm curious if a few more beheadings occur will we still consider it workplace violence or how many will it take for it to change catagories? I would prefer not to find out for what its worth.

Right now I just consider the POS to be nutjob and leave it at workplace violence. But then again I believe people don't self radicalize in a vacuum and are influenced by outside forces.

garhkal
10-01-2014, 03:54 AM
That's a good concern. How many times must this happen before people start rethinking what it should be classed as?

Measure Man
10-01-2014, 05:56 AM
Let's say all that you postulate is true. What difference does it make if this apparently isolated crime is labeled "terrorism" or not? The doctrinal definition of terrorism would lead a reasonable person to conclude this was NOT a case of terrorism, since the victims were former co-workers whom he knew and likely targeted for retribution due to his firing.

In the case of Hassan, sure, that would appear to be terrorism. But so what? Those people aren't going to come back to life just because their murder was classified in another way.

Would you agree that white people killing black people (or blacks killing whites, if you prefer) due to racial animus is also terrorism? Does the motive bring them back to life?

I'm still trying to figure out what Gharkal "fears" will happen if the right adjective isn't applied to this crime.

Okay...disclaimer first. I am on vacation this week...I've not read all of the responses, I'm not entirely sober, and I'm only on here because my wife is asleep and I'm up ditzing around.

A lot of people seem to want to classify Major Hassan as a terrorist or an enemy combatant, and seem offended by the fact he may have been called workplace violence. I do not understand that...if he is an enemy combatant, he has committed no crime...he killed only uniformed servicemembers, which is legal under LOAC. Okay, maybe he is guilty of a relatively minor crime like espionage or wearing the wrong uniform...but if we say he is an enemy, is he not allowed to kill us? I'm no LOAC expert, but I don't understand the anger at having him treated more harshly than he might be otherwise.

The classification of him and others is extremely important when taken in context of LOAC. If we are at war with terrorists, then terrorists should be treated IAW LOAC...so if they kill uniformied military members, they have not committed a crime. They can be held as POWs, but not tried and convicted as criminals...

I'm just pondering here...I welcome discussion.

sandsjames
10-01-2014, 10:07 AM
Okay...disclaimer first. I am on vacation this week...I've not read all of the responses, I'm not entirely sober, and I'm only on here because my wife is asleep and I'm up ditzing around.

A lot of people seem to want to classify Major Hassan as a terrorist or an enemy combatant, and seem offended by the fact he may have been called workplace violence. I do not understand that...if he is an enemy combatant, he has committed no crime...he killed only uniformed servicemembers, which is legal under LOAC. Okay, maybe he is guilty of a relatively minor crime like espionage or wearing the wrong uniform...but if we say he is an enemy, is he not allowed to kill us? I'm no LOAC expert, but I don't understand the anger at having him treated more harshly than he might be otherwise.

The classification of him and others is extremely important when taken in context of LOAC. If we are at war with terrorists, then terrorists should be treated IAW LOAC...so if they kill uniformied military members, they have not committed a crime. They can be held as POWs, but not tried and convicted as criminals...

I'm just pondering here...I welcome discussion.

Very interesting point. With this hypothesis, it shouldn't be classified as terrorism or work place violence, but merely treason.

Stalwart
10-01-2014, 12:23 PM
Okay...disclaimer first. I am on vacation this week...I've not read all of the responses, I'm not entirely sober, and I'm only on here because my wife is asleep and I'm up ditzing around.

A lot of people seem to want to classify Major Hassan as a terrorist or an enemy combatant, and seem offended by the fact he may have been called workplace violence. I do not understand that...if he is an enemy combatant, he has committed no crime...he killed only uniformed servicemembers, which is legal under LOAC. Okay, maybe he is guilty of a relatively minor crime like espionage or wearing the wrong uniform...but if we say he is an enemy, is he not allowed to kill us? I'm no LOAC expert, but I don't understand the anger at having him treated more harshly than he might be otherwise.

The classification of him and others is extremely important when taken in context of LOAC. If we are at war with terrorists, then terrorists should be treated IAW LOAC...so if they kill uniformied military members, they have not committed a crime. They can be held as POWs, but not tried and convicted as criminals...

I'm just pondering here...I welcome discussion.

Under the law of armed conflict, you can't engage or kill some one who has removed themselves from the fight or war effort -- i.e. It is legit to shoot at a paratrooper but not an ejected pilot. It is also not permitted to shoot anyone trying to surrender. I am no expert or lawyer either, but would think if anyone begged or pleaded with MAJ Hassan and he killed them, that is not okay under the LOAC.

BT BT

Enjoy vacation.

TJMAC77SP
10-01-2014, 02:29 PM
Okay...disclaimer first. I am on vacation this week...I've not read all of the responses, I'm not entirely sober, and I'm only on here because my wife is asleep and I'm up ditzing around.

A lot of people seem to want to classify Major Hassan as a terrorist or an enemy combatant, and seem offended by the fact he may have been called workplace violence. I do not understand that...if he is an enemy combatant, he has committed no crime...he killed only uniformed servicemembers, which is legal under LOAC. Okay, maybe he is guilty of a relatively minor crime like espionage or wearing the wrong uniform...but if we say he is an enemy, is he not allowed to kill us? I'm no LOAC expert, but I don't understand the anger at having him treated more harshly than he might be otherwise.

The classification of him and others is extremely important when taken in context of LOAC. If we are at war with terrorists, then terrorists should be treated IAW LOAC...so if they kill uniformied military members, they have not committed a crime. They can be held as POWs, but not tried and convicted as criminals...

I'm just pondering here...I welcome discussion.

I don't remember anyone balking at him being an enemy combatant (although I sure someone did). I do remember (and agree with them) that Hassan is a terrorist in that he committed acts of terrorism.

Your argument does raise some interesting points.

The US position I believe is that the current conflict does not meet the requirements of Art 2 and in any case the terrorists are in egregious violation of Article 3 (and to this there is not doubt). I think the current US read of the LoAC does not afford them POW status.

The ICRC position is that even if a party fails to live up to any provision of the conventions the other party or parties are bound to adhere to the provisions (recognizing the value of human life). While I agree with that in principle I have to wonder if suffering the effects of a losing conflict indefinitely to stand on the moral high ground is too high a price. I guess it is there the rubber of high morals meets the very rough road of the real world.

On a side note, wouldn't Hassan, if indeed a POW, be guilty of wearing an enemy uniform and therefore could be tried and executed as a spy (which includes acts of violence, not just espionage in the common usage)?

Rainmaker
10-01-2014, 03:31 PM
Let's say all that you postulate is true. What difference does it make if this apparently isolated crime is labeled "terrorism" or not? The doctrinal definition of terrorism would lead a reasonable person to conclude this was NOT a case of terrorism, since the victims were former co-workers whom he knew and likely targeted for retribution due to his firing.

In the case of Hassan, sure, that would appear to be terrorism. But so what? Those people aren't going to come back to life just because their murder was classified in another way.

Would you agree that white people killing black people (or blacks killing whites, if you prefer) due to racial animus is also terrorism? Does the motive bring them back to life?

I'm still trying to figure out what Gharkal "fears" will happen if the right adjective isn't applied to this crime.

Probably not Terrorism. But, if the crime was committed by a White male against a Black half Hispanic, 1/16th Native American, Arabic- Hebrew, Cross-dressing Handicapped, Female Midget than it would probably be classified as a Hate crime. Therefore, it would most likely fall under Federal Jurisdiction and Eric "My People" Holder would need to ensure the Human Rights and Special Prosecution Office served justice and the POTUS would have to tell us that if he had an LBGT son he'd look like the victim.

But, if this situation was reversed. If the local police arrested the suspect, , then we'd have to question whether or not it was a just another case of profiling or inherent racial bias in the legal system. In which case, Enlightend, White, Leftist Billionaires would have to call up the Reverend Jackson and Sharpton to stage Peaceful civil disobedience (read looting) protests and have it blasted 24/7/365 by AIPAC Lobbyist Wolf Blitzer and Rainbow Flag waiver Anderson Cooper on the Clinton News Network and blame it on the Liberty movement and the Tea Party for shutting down the gibberment and not wanting to bail out Goldman Sachs again.

sandsjames
10-01-2014, 03:32 PM
I don't remember anyone balking at him being an enemy combatant (although I sure someone did). I do remember (and agree with them) that Hassan is a terrorist in that he committed acts of terrorism.

Your argument does raise some interesting points.

The US position I believe is that the current conflict does not meet the requirements of Art 2 and in any case the terrorists are in egregious violation of Article 3 (and to this there is not doubt). I think the current US read of the LoAC does not afford them POW status.

The ICRC position is that even if a party fails to live up to any provision of the conventions the other party or parties are bound to adhere to the provisions (recognizing the value of human life). While I agree with that in principle I have to wonder if suffering the effects of a losing conflict indefinitely to stand on the moral high ground is too high a price. I guess it is there the rubber of high morals meets the very rough road of the real world.

On a side note, wouldn't Hassan, if indeed a POW, be guilty of wearing an enemy uniform and therefore could be tried and executed as a spy (which includes acts of violence, not just espionage in the common usage)?

I've heard many times in the past few weeks, from "Washington", about how ISIS is different than other groups...that they are organized and are a "standing army". If that's so, then, IMO, that brings the articles back into play.

TJMAC77SP
10-01-2014, 03:59 PM
I've heard many times in the past few weeks, from "Washington", about how ISIS is different than other groups...that they are organized and are a "standing army". If that's so, then, IMO, that brings the articles back into play.

I think the word-smithing going on now is politics as usual. "It's a war", "its a significant counter-terrorism operation".

Truth is I don't have an issue treating ISIS IAW the Geneva Conventions. The tricky part comes when people who claim affiliation with (or are inspired by) ISIS commit acts of terrorism 'off the field of battle'. Since they aren't doing so in any recognized uniform (or displaying recognized symbols) they are either criminals or illegal combatants, or both.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-01-2014, 04:07 PM
Probably not Terrorism. But, if the crime was committed by a White male against a Black half Hispanic, 1/16th Native American, Arabic- Hebrew, Cross-dressing Handicapped, Female Midget than it would probably be classified as a Hate crime. Therefore, it would most likely fall under Federal Jurisdiction and Eric "My People" Holder would need to ensure the Human Rights and Special Prosecution Office served justice and the POTUS would have to tell us that if he had an LBGT son he'd look like the victim.

But, if this situation was reversed. If the local police arrested the suspect, , then we'd have to question whether or not it was a just another case of profiling or inherent racial bias in the legal system. In which case, Enlightend, White, Leftist Billionaires would have to call up the Reverend Jackson and Sharpton to stage Peaceful civil disobedience (read looting) protests and have it blasted 24/7/365 by AIPAC Lobbyist Wolf Blitzer and Rainbow Flag waiver Anderson Cooper on the Clinton News Network and blame it on the Liberty movement and the Tea Party for shutting down the gibberment and not wanting to bail out Goldman Sachs again.

It appears that several AM radio talk show hosts, and couple of very angry ultra right-wing bloggers vomited all over your post.

The post is dripping wet with so many modifying adverbs and adjectives that it is impossible to read.

I suggest you listen to Rush Limbaugh a bit more, while he sometimes uses many of the zingers that you typed into that monstrosity, he doesn't go overboard with them. Rush is able to eloquently communicate a thought in both written, and spoken form.

You have failed miserably in communicating a coherent message. Go back and rewrite that.

Rainmaker
10-01-2014, 04:15 PM
It appears that several AM radio talk show hosts, and couple of very angry ultra right-wing bloggers vomited all over your post.

The post is dripping wet with so many modifying adverbs and adjectives that it is impossible to read.

I suggest you listen to Rush Limbaugh a bit more, while he sometimes uses many of the zingers that you typed into that monstrosity, he doesn't go overboard with them. Rush is able to eloquently communicate a thought in both written, and spoken form.

You have failed miserably in communicating a coherent message. Go back and rewrite that.

Nope. Try again Skippy. Rainmaker stepped out the left/right paradigm long time ago. so, he very rarely listens to the AM radio. plus, It makes his tin-foil hat itch!

Absinthe Anecdote
10-01-2014, 06:03 PM
Nope. Try again Skippy. Rainmaker stepped out the left/right paradigm long time ago. so, he very rarely listens to the AM radio. plus, It makes his tin-foil hat itch!

Are you fibbing a little bit on that? I think so!

I listen to Rush sometimes, and you sure as hell use a lot of his zingers! A lot of them.

However, at least Rush restricts his use of them to one per sentence. Your entire post was so heavily loaded with them that it was unintelligible.

Besides, I wasn't insulting your politics, I was insulting your ability to communicate!

USN - Retired
10-01-2014, 06:25 PM
You have failed miserably in communicating a coherent message. Go back and rewrite that.

@AA: His message seems coherent to me. Perhaps the problem is with your reading comprehension skills.

Rainmaker
10-01-2014, 06:30 PM
Are you fibbing a little bit on that? I think so!

I listen to Rush sometimes, and you sure as hell use a lot of his zingers! A lot of them.

However, at least Rush restricts his use of them to one per sentence. Your entire post was so heavily loaded with them that it was unintelligible.

Besides, I wasn't insulting your politics, I was insulting your ability to communicate!

Abs corrects Rainmaker's grammar more than the English Lit teacher from York University He used to bang. When the information flows from the Hall of Records... It sometimes comes through disjointed to the un-initiated. so,Obviously you can't discern the esoteric wisdom in these posts.....Rainmaker don't listen to Limbaugh....He is not a big fan of the AIPAC Stooge.

TJMAC77SP
10-01-2014, 08:31 PM
I stopped listening to Rush when it was clear that he had zero interest in a two sided story or discussion and that anyone 'liberal' or 'democratic' is a actual and literal spawn of the devil. That applies to basically anyone on either far end of the political spectrum. They have zero to add to society.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-02-2014, 12:51 PM
I stopped listening to Rush when it was clear that he had zero interest in a two sided story or discussion and that anyone 'liberal' or 'democratic' is a actual and literal spawn of the devil. That applies to basically anyone on either far end of the political spectrum. They have zero to add to society.

I'm not politically aligned with Rush, but I do find him entertaining, and I think he is a gifted speaker and commentator.

He throughly understands the art of rhetoric and persuasion.

His humor is biting and it is often misunderstood by not only his detractors, but even by his supporters.

With that said, I think listening to too much political commentary, regardless of the particular brand you choose is unhealthy to one's objectivity.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-02-2014, 12:54 PM
Abs corrects Rainmaker's grammar more than the English Lit teacher from York University He used to bang. When the information flows from the Hall of Records... It sometimes comes through disjointed to the un-initiated. so,Obviously you can't discern the esoteric wisdom in these posts.....Rainmaker don't listen to Limbaugh....He is not a big fan of the AIPAC Stooge.

I don't care what rainmaker claims, I've listened to enough Rush to recognize when I hear someone parroting his catchphrases and zingers.

garhkal
10-02-2014, 06:52 PM
I'm not politically aligned with Rush, but I do find him entertaining, and I think he is a gifted speaker and commentator.

He throughly understands the art of rhetoric and persuasion.

His humor is biting and it is often misunderstood by not only his detractors, but even by his supporters.

With that said, I think listening to too much political commentary, regardless of the particular brand you choose is unhealthy to one's objectivity.

I fully agree. Rush is great listening when you need a good laugh, but for just politics. IMO no.

sandsjames
10-02-2014, 07:46 PM
I don't care what rainmaker claims, I've listened to enough Rush to recognize when I hear someone parroting his catchphrases and zingers.

I listen to Rush. I also watch the Daily Show. The former is a comedy under the guise of a political show and the latter is a political show under the guise of a comedy.

giggawatt
10-03-2014, 11:59 AM
I listen to Rush. I also watch the Daily Show. The former is a comedy under the guise of a political show and the latter is a political show under the guise of a comedy.

http://i.imgur.com/mDPCu.gif

Absinthe Anecdote
10-03-2014, 02:20 PM
http://i.imgur.com/mDPCu.gif

Is that Wee Bey?

giggawatt
10-03-2014, 02:46 PM
Is that Wee Bey?

I have no clue TBH. I've seen it many times as a reaction gif on other forums. You wanna know what I typed into google to find it?

"black guy mind blown gif"

1st hit.

Rainmaker
10-04-2014, 06:31 PM
I don't care what rainmaker claims, I've listened to enough Rush to recognize when I hear someone parroting his catchphrases and zingers.

well, Rush does plagiarize all his material from others...so maybe it's possible...But, you go ahead and keep on listening to the NPR and Bill Maher and keep constantly telling the rest of us how "objective" you are.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-04-2014, 07:14 PM
well, Rush does plagiarize all his material from others...so maybe it's possible...But, you go ahead and keep on listening to the NPR and Bill Maher and keep constantly telling the rest of us how "objective" you are.

And you go ahead and keep posting about AIPAC controlling the government, or the illuminati, or what ever it is you keep screaming about in upper case font.

Rainmaker
10-04-2014, 07:41 PM
And you go ahead and keep posting about AIPAC controlling the government, or the illuminati, or what ever it is your keep screaming about in upper case font.

So one minute Rainmaker is a mainstream conservative, ditto-head and the next he's an Anti-semetic, white supremacist....you're too much dude... you and the rest of the typical Liberals continually make Rainmaker's point for him....always quick to tell other people to have a sense of humor....But, whenever someone doesn't agree with you, it always turns to name calling, cries of racism etc etc....just like most arrogant,Liberal, Jerks you think you're a genius but, probably couldn't hack 24 hours in Rainmaker's neck of the woods. and now your since PUSSY HURTS. You can have the last word like all the rest of the Liberal CUNTS....
Note: Captain alfredo dislikes this post...

Capt Alfredo
10-04-2014, 11:10 PM
So one minute Rainmaker is a mainstream conservative, ditto-head and the next he's an Anti-semetic, white supremacist....you're too much dude... you and the rest of the typical Liberals continually make Rainmaker's point for him....always quick to tell other people to have a sense of humor....But, whenever someone doesn't agree with you, it always turns to name calling, cries of racism etc etc....just like most arrogant,Liberal, Jerks you think you're a genius but, probably couldn't hack 24 hours in Rainmaker's neck of the woods. and now your since PUSSY HURTS. You can have the last word like all the rest of the Liberal CUNTS....
Note: Captain alfredo dislikes this post...

I do? I can't say I like it, per se, but you are free to expose yourself...

Absinthe Anecdote
10-05-2014, 02:15 AM
I have no clue TBH. I've seen it many times as a reaction gif on other forums. You wanna know what I typed into google to find it?

"black guy mind blown gif"

1st hit.

It's the character Wee Bey from The Wire, great show.

Rainmaker
10-05-2014, 02:56 PM
I do? I can't say I like it, per se, but you are free to expose yourself...

Oh Stop it already. So, now what did you two socialist pals get into last night anyway? You guys hit up the Fells point "scene" for a couple a kosher hot dogs and Natty Bos? Or did you just stay home in your Che Guevara tee shirts and discuss the need for even more Leviathan Government agencies to spy on those Ignant country white people with the silly yellow snake flags worshiping their monster God?

and on lighter note. 1530 start time. Rainmaker's got his dustpan and broom ready. what's with Buck going with Bud Norris over Gonzo? Rainmaker didn't see that one coming. but, He's learned not to question the magician's management of the rotation and bullpen this year. Must be a fun time to be up there. Oriole Magic is back! Gnomesayin?

Absinthe Anecdote
10-05-2014, 04:04 PM
Rainmaker's Song
Sing to the tune, Royals, by Lorde

Rainmaker finally cracked the code
He figured out these shadow organizations
And the Illuminati know
That they're finally primed for world domination

[Pre-Chorus:]
Rainmaker see da black helicopters coming 'cross the border
Puppet masters for the New World Order
Be aware: there's always someone that's watching you
And still the government won't admit they faked the whole moon landing
Thought control rays, psychotronic scanning
Don't mind that, Rainmaker protected cause he made a hat

[Chorus:]
From aluminum foil (foil)
Rainmaker wear a hat that's foil lined
In case an alien is inclined
To probe his butt or read his mind
Looks a bit peculiar ('culiar)
Seems a little crazy
But someday Rainmaker prove (Him prove, Him prove, Him prove)
There's a big conspiracy

Stalwart
10-05-2014, 04:43 PM
I'm not politically aligned with Rush, but I do find him entertaining, and I think he is a gifted speaker and commentator.

I am not comparing their politics, but Fidel Castro is (at least was) an amazing public speaker. I am fluent in Spanish and when stationed in Cuba, we could get the broadcast speeches on a regular radio ... he almost made me hate myself. I could go back and read a transcript of the same speech and think "meh" but when I heard it it was amazing. I have heard the same thing about Hitler (I don't speak German) ... that the guy could give a speech and fire up a crowd.

Good orators have the ability to tap charisma and energy and when coupled with a collection of words and the right audience ... stand the hell by. Rush is likely no different; he and President Obama both seem like guys that would be interesting to have a conversation with and as long as they avoid certain topics they would charm the heck out of you while doing it.

Stalwart
10-05-2014, 04:44 PM
I do? I can't say I like it, per se, but you are free to expose yourself...

Expose? ... Express? Please mean express.

Rainmaker
10-05-2014, 05:17 PM
I am not comparing their politics, but Fidel Castro is (at least was) an amazing public speaker. I am fluent in Spanish and when stationed in Cuba, we could get the broadcast speeches on a regular radio ... he almost made me hate myself. I could go back and read a transcript of the same speech and think "meh" but when I heard it it was amazing. I have heard the same thing about Hitler (I don't speak German) ... that the guy could give a speech and fire up a crowd.

Good orators have the ability to tap charisma and energy and when coupled with a collection of words and the right audience ... stand the hell by. Rush is likely no different; he and President Obama both seem like guys that would be interesting to have a conversation with and as long as they avoid certain topics they would charm the heck out of you while doing it.

Same with Bill Clinton. Rainmaker had an opportunity to meet with him in a small group setting for a couple minutes. and No doubt, You could definitely picture yourself drinking a beer in bass boat with the guy. Not so much for his better half though. CANKLES 2016!!!

Stalwart
10-05-2014, 05:38 PM
Same with Bill Clinton. Rainmaker had an opportunity to meet with him in a small group setting for a couple minutes. and No doubt, You could definitely picture yourself drinking a beer in bass boat with the guy. Not so much for his better half though. CANKLES 2016!!!

My time at Camp David was during the Clinton Administration, I met President Clinton several times, usually a passing "good morning, Sir" was the extent of it but sometimes he would to talk to us -- he seemed like a "people person." I passed by Chelsea once while she was walking on a running trail there and she said hello (she was young -- 11/12/13 or so) ... no big deal. In the summer there is/was a picnic for the staff and the First Family would help man the serving line and while going through as POTUS was serving up some chow, he would say hello to everyone and would throw out little things that he remembered from those short conversations -- he remembered I was from Louisiana and made a comment about LSU (not my favorite college but that he remembered that impressed me.) For the photo-op near the end of the tour it was the same thing, except I am pretty sure he also read some bio data on the people there for the photos that day, he actually used my name. But yes, he came across likable -- like his politics or not.

Rainmaker
10-05-2014, 05:48 PM
My time at Camp David was during the Clinton Administration, I met President Clinton several times, usually a passing "good morning, Sir" was the extent of it but sometimes he would to talk to us -- he seemed like a "people person." I passed by Chelsea once while she was walking on a running trail there and she said hello (she was young -- 11/12/13 or so) ... no big deal. In the summer there is/was a picnic for the staff and the First Family would help man the serving line and while going through as POTUS was serving up some chow, he would say hello to everyone and would throw out little things that he remembered from those short conversations -- he remembered I was from Louisiana and made a comment about LSU (not my favorite college but that he remembered that impressed me.) For the photo-op near the end of the tour it was the same thing, except I am pretty sure he also read some bio data on the people there for the photos that day, he actually used my name. But yes, he came across likable -- like his politics or not.

Rainmaker met him at the US embassy when he was traveling through for a GCC summit (early 2000's). seemed like a nice enough fella. went out of his way to visit a few minutes with the Milgroup. No press coverage, and he didn't have to do it, as he wasn't POTUS at the time. so Rainmaker assumes it to have been genuine motivation. However, in hindsight, it could've just been his Reptilian twin. Gnomesayin?

Absinthe Anecdote
10-05-2014, 06:18 PM
I am not comparing their politics, but Fidel Castro is (at least was) an amazing public speaker. I am fluent in Spanish and when stationed in Cuba, we could get the broadcast speeches on a regular radio ... he almost made me hate myself. I could go back and read a transcript of the same speech and think "meh" but when I heard it it was amazing. I have heard the same thing about Hitler (I don't speak German) ... that the guy could give a speech and fire up a crowd.

Good orators have the ability to tap charisma and energy and when coupled with a collection of words and the right audience ... stand the hell by. Rush is likely no different; he and President Obama both seem like guys that would be interesting to have a conversation with and as long as they avoid certain topics they would charm the heck out of you while doing it.

Charles Manson had read the Dale Carnegie book, How to Win Friends & Influence People, while he was in prison during the 1950s, and apparently memorized it. Investigators studying how he built his cult of followers found that he approached them and drew them close to him with tactics straight from the book.

Damn powerful book, I'm going to go get a copy and take over the forum, and there is nothing Rainmaker's tin foil hat can do to stop me.

Rainmaker
10-05-2014, 07:59 PM
Charles Manson had read the Dale Carnegie book, How to Win Friends & Influence People, while he was in prison during the 1950s, and apparently memorized it. Investigators studying how he built his cult of followers found that he approached them and drew them close to him with tactics straight from the book.

Damn powerful book, I'm going to go get a copy and take over the forum, and there is nothing Rainmaker's tin foil hat can do to stop me.

Wrong Again. Folks this is a perfect example of how they always have to tell you of their diabolical plans before implementing them. It must be written in their by-laws or something. Anyhow, Rainmaker slept in the sarcophagus of the Oracle at Gibtown for 3 days and can now see this order of the quest stuff coming from a mile away.

Capt Alfredo
10-09-2014, 12:13 AM
Expose? ... Express? Please mean express.

No, I mean expose. He exposes himself for what he is each time he makes another ignorant, bigoted post.