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Shadowless
08-27-2014, 01:45 PM
So I had a little argument with me OIC today about PT and the new EPR system. As we all know we are now in direct competition with our peers, this sucks but it's true. One of my flight mates is the same rank as me and is having problems passing his PT test, as the flight PTL my OIC wants me to help this person out by working out with them. I know I might sound like a jerk but my days are already limited and I have my own workout program that I schedule around my work schedule. I don't have the time to baby sit someone else especially now that they are now a direct competitor.

Needless to say I didn't tell this all to my OIC I just said I'll do my best. What is everyone's thoughts on this? Should you go out of your way to help out someone you are competing with?

Sgt HULK
08-27-2014, 01:48 PM
So I had a little argument with me OIC today about PT and the new EPR system. As we all know we are now in direct competition with our peers, this sucks but it's true. One of my flight mates is the same rank as me and is having problems passing his PT test, as the flight PTL my OIC wants me to help this person out by working out with them. I know I might sound like a jerk but my days are already limited and I have my own workout program that I schedule around my work schedule. I don't have the time to baby sit someone else especially now that they are now a direct competitor.

Needless to say I didn't tell this all to my OIC I just said I'll do my best. What is everyone's thoughts on this? Should you go out of your way to help out someone you are competing with?

Sounds like you're a great wingman, a superstar NCO and Mentor. You'll go far. this is probably one of the most piss poor posts ive seen. You're a prime candidate for removal from service. helping a direct competitor. Do you piss on people who are down on thier luck in public too?

actually since he is a direct competitor. during your PT test, make sure you trip and knock over as many people as you see fit to win. Maybe start spiking folks drinks so they fail piss tests too

Shadowless
08-27-2014, 01:59 PM
Sounds like you're a great wingman, a superstar NCO and Mentor. You'll go far. this is probably one of the most piss poor posts ive seen. You're a prime candidate for removal from service. helping a direct competitor. Do you piss on people who are down on thier luck in public too?

actually since he is a direct competitor. during your PT test, make sure you trip and knock over as many people as you see fit to win. Maybe start spiking folks drinks so they fail piss tests too

So dramatic...

sandsjames
08-27-2014, 02:00 PM
Sounds like you're a great wingman, a superstar NCO and Mentor. You'll go far. this is probably one of the most piss poor posts ive seen. You're a prime candidate for removal from service. helping a direct competitor. Do you piss on people who are down on thier luck in public too?

actually since he is a direct competitor. during your PT test, make sure you trip and knock over as many people as you see fit to win. Maybe start spiking folks drinks so they fail piss tests tooI agree with what you say, but you can't deny that this is going to become more common. When it comes down to supporting your family, are you really going to make it more competitive/difficult on yourself?

The Air Force has created a system that does not promote teamwork. If you think you, or the people you work with, are above throwing someone else under the bus for self preservation purposes, then you are naive.

Sgt HULK
08-27-2014, 02:03 PM
I agree with what you say, but you can't deny that this is going to become more common. When it comes down to supporting your family, are you really going to make it more competitive/difficult on yourself?

The Air Force has created a system that does not promote teamwork. If you think you, or the people you work with, are above throwing someone else under the bus for self preservation purposes, then you are naive.

Here's a novel concept, just do your damn job how about that. If you suck so bad in your job that someone running a faster time than you will make or break your career its time depart the service. a pass is a pass is a pass. In 12 yrs Ive never had a deciding factor between 2 folks come down to who runs faster, and it never will. If you think that it will you are the one who is naive.

Shadowless
08-27-2014, 02:07 PM
Sounds like you're a great wingman, a superstar NCO and Mentor. You'll go far. this is probably one of the most piss poor posts ive seen. You're a prime candidate for removal from service. helping a direct competitor. Do you piss on people who are down on thier luck in public too?

actually since he is a direct competitor. during your PT test, make sure you trip and knock over as many people as you see fit to win. Maybe start spiking folks drinks so they fail piss tests too

Sorry man, you can take your wingman and shove it. I go to the gym before work and sometimes even after work. If someone can't pass the Air Force pt test then they should be kicked out. Why should I or anyone else hold someone's hand, if you can't pass a pt test then you should go to the gym and workout. I am sorry but I am sick and tired of people getting away with this crap and others having to pick up their slack. I am sorry but I am already putting in over 12 hours a day with work and staying fit, not counting taking college classes and all the other crap. I don't have time to hold someone's hand, if they want to go to the gym on my time and on my schedule then great, but don't expect me to change my life around to make yours easier.

sandsjames
08-27-2014, 02:10 PM
Here's a novel concept, just do your damn job how about that. If you suck so bad in your job that someone running a faster time than you will make or break your career its time depart the service. a pass is a pass is a pass. In 12 yrs Ive never had a deciding factor between 2 folks come down to who runs faster, and it never will. If you think that it will you are the one who is naive.

I've seen the PT score be the deciding factor several times. Maybe you're just lucky.

And I'm not saying that I agree with throwing people under the bus. I'm just making a comment that this is a situation the Air Force has created. It's reality. Whether you agree with people doing it or not doesn't mean that it's not going to happen. Not everyone in the Air Force has your steadfast integrity.

And it's not just a PT thing. It's going to happen on the job, as well. People arguing about taking credit for a specific job. Making comments like "Yeah, you really help on that one by holding up the shovel"...stuff like that.

If you think it won't happen, then you're in for a shock. Though if it does shock you, I really hope you aren't in any position now where you are required to know your people because you obviously don't.

Sgt HULK
08-27-2014, 02:21 PM
Sorry man, you can take your wingman and shove it. I go to the gym before work and sometimes even after work. If someone can't pass the Air Force pt test then they should be kicked out. Why should I or anyone else hold someone's hand, if you can't pass a pt test then you should go to the gym and workout. I am sorry but I am sick and tired of people getting away with this crap and others having to pick up their slack. I am sorry but I am already putting in over 12 hours a day with work and staying fit, not counting taking college classes and all the other crap. I don't have time to hold someone's hand, if they want to go to the gym on my time and on my schedule then great, but don't expect me to change my life around to make yours easier.


Pretty cut and dry. Should be easy for your supervisor to rate you then.

On teh AF form 931

Understand the importance of leading by example. screw that ive got my own issues to worry about

Understands the importance of looking after fellow airman. screw that im not a baby sitter.

Understands the importance of showing and inspiring others to reach their full potential nah i dont hold someones hand.

EAMWORK/FOLLOWERSHIP (For SSgt/TSgt also consider Leadership, Team Accomplishments, Recognition/Reward Others)

like i said your making it easy for your supervisor to rate you down. instead of stepping up and earning your high marks, screw it i'm not a baby sitter. well your OIC isnt a baby sitter either and it sounds like he placed you in a chance to show your worthy of a high mark and youre gonna shit on him. Its your career not mine do as you see fit.

sandsjames
08-27-2014, 02:24 PM
Pretty cut and dry. Should be easy for your supervisor to rate you then.

On teh AF form 931

Understand the importance of leading by example. screw that ive got my own issues to worry about

Understands the importance of looking after fellow airman. screw that im not a baby sitter.

Understands the importance of showing and inspiring others to reach their full potential nah i dont hold someones hand.

EAMWORK/FOLLOWERSHIP (For SSgt/TSgt also consider Leadership, Team Accomplishments, Recognition/Reward Others)

like i said your making it easy for your supervisor to rate you down. instead of stepping up and earning your high marks, screw it i'm not a baby sitter. well your OIC isnt a baby sitter either and it sounds like he placed you in a chance to show your worthy of a high mark and youre gonna shit on him. Its your career not mine do as you see fit.

There's always one idealist in every squadron.

Measure Man
08-27-2014, 02:45 PM
So I had a little argument with me OIC today about PT and the new EPR system. As we all know we are now in direct competition with our peers, this sucks but it's true. One of my flight mates is the same rank as me and is having problems passing his PT test, as the flight PTL my OIC wants me to help this person out by working out with them. I know I might sound like a jerk but my days are already limited and I have my own workout program that I schedule around my work schedule. I don't have the time to baby sit someone else especially now that they are now a direct competitor.

Needless to say I didn't tell this all to my OIC I just said I'll do my best. What is everyone's thoughts on this? Should you go out of your way to help out someone you are competing with?

First, this person has always been your direct competitor. You are still competing for promotion against the same lot you always have...the only thing that's changed is the EPR is supposed to be more job focused and actually do what it is supposed to do...differentiate from those ready for the next rank and those who aren't.

One day, you are going to be old and look back on your career. Do you want to look at yourself as someone who did their best to help others...or someone who got promoted by stabbing others in the back.

Service before self. Help the other person out. By looking out for others, you will be looking out for yourself. Do you think Johnny Manziel should sabotage Brian Hoyer, since his goal is to be a starting QB? How does that make Johnny Football a better QB? It doesn't. He should try and improve himself and earn the promotion.

I understand how you feel...but "looking out for #1" never works out the way you want it to...either everyone else will think you are a self-serving scumbag, or you will know it when you look in the mirror.

sandsjames
08-27-2014, 03:02 PM
First, this person has always been your direct competitor. In theory, yes...but when everyone could get a 5 (or was given a 5) it didn't make much difference.

Measure Man
08-27-2014, 03:05 PM
In theory, yes...but when everyone could get a 5 (or was given a 5) it didn't make much difference.

Maybe it was less obvious to some.

Just to piggyback...if I had to ask one of my TSgts to help out another one...I'm pretty sure I would remember that come EPR time.

jpeters
08-27-2014, 03:17 PM
First, this person has always been your direct competitor.

This is true. I have noticed this stuff happening already in my squadron as well. But now that people are being racked and stacked with EVERYONE in the same rank, some people are looking out for themselves and making sure they stand out. Let's say Shadowless does go out of his way to help this person out. He puts in extra work and goes above and beyond and this guy passes his PT test with no problem. But this other guy has way more facetime with the CC. Who do you think is going to be higher when it comes time to rack and stack? The guy that went out of his way behind the scenes to help a wingman out. Or the guy that barely passed his PT test but has his hands in all the CCs pet projects or has more interaction with him on a daily basis?

Zxc
08-27-2014, 03:45 PM
So I had a little argument with me OIC today about PT and the new EPR system. As we all know we are now in direct competition with our peers, this sucks but it's true. One of my flight mates is the same rank as me and is having problems passing his PT test, as the flight PTL my OIC wants me to help this person out by working out with them. I know I might sound like a jerk but my days are already limited and I have my own workout program that I schedule around my work schedule. I don't have the time to baby sit someone else especially now that they are now a direct competitor.

Needless to say I didn't tell this all to my OIC I just said I'll do my best. What is everyone's thoughts on this? Should you go out of your way to help out someone you are competing with?


Its incredibly easy for us to piss on the OP for this sentiment, and even easier for those outside of the veil of the internet to do so. However, the attitude presented here, whether a true story or satire, is the system we are given. In order to work within a system where we're told to be good wingmen yet directly rewarded for looking out for #1, we're indirectly encouraged to behave this way. Do as I say, not as I do says the E-9 who stepped on faces to get where he is today.

Yes, we've always been in direct competition before, but it becomes an entirely new issue when quotas or stratification is happening. If our NCOs "work together" like our SNCO corps does because of this, it won't be good for the force.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-27-2014, 03:50 PM
I say Shadowless should jump at the chance to help out someone struggling with the PT test. There is absolutely nothing wrong with making the person you are helping conform to your schedule either.

As a matter of fact, you could even send out emails inviting other squadron members to attend your workout sessions. Advertise it as "PT Bootcamp" and make sure you get that officer to talk about the workout classes you are conducting at the squadron staff meeting!

Hell yes! You can really score a lot of brownie points doing that sort of thing. You can even invite the commander, squadron superintendent, first sergeant, and your supervisor to the workout sessions to see first hand what a great guy you are.

You've got to be a strategic thinker! Don't worry about Sgt Fatass suddenly getting in shape and out competing you when the racking and stacking of EPRs occurs. How will that happen when you are the one conducting PT Bootcamp sessions?

I myself, used to help the squadron fatties at every opportunity and you can damn well be sure that the whole squadron knew about my workout sessions. I would hold them in the squadron parking lot so the day shift would see us doing push ups and sit ups. I'd also invite anyone who walked by to join us too.

Plus, you can really work them hard and get a tremendous power trip out of commanding people to give you another rep, then another rep! Come on! ONE MORE REP!

Heck, if any officers are dumb enough to show up, you can smoke the hell out of them with set after set of squat thrusts! You can fuck with them in endless ways, and the best part about it is, they will thank you for it.

I once sent a command chief to the hospital with dizziness and chest pains! That fucking dipshit thought I was the most motivated NCO he'd ever seen.

Speaking of brownies, you can even bake trays of high calorie brownies (use lard) for the Booster Club to create even more squadron fatties to boss around. That will actually score you double brownie points if you think about it.

Remember, think strategically!

LogDog
08-27-2014, 05:27 PM
Sorry man, you can take your wingman and shove it. I go to the gym before work and sometimes even after work. If someone can't pass the Air Force pt test then they should be kicked out. Why should I or anyone else hold someone's hand, if you can't pass a pt test then you should go to the gym and workout. I am sorry but I am sick and tired of people getting away with this crap and others having to pick up their slack. I am sorry but I am already putting in over 12 hours a day with work and staying fit, not counting taking college classes and all the other crap. I don't have time to hold someone's hand, if they want to go to the gym on my time and on my schedule then great, but don't expect me to change my life around to make yours easier.
Invite the guy your OIC wants you to help to join you in your workouts but you don't have to work around his time schedule. You're the one making the effort to help someone else so it should be on your schedule.


Absinthe Anecdote makes a good point to invited others to join you in a mini-PT boot camp. We had a guy in my flight who failed his PT test and he started a before and after work day exercise program. It earned him a lot of brownies points with the Commander and made his EPR look good as well. Funny thing about his workouts, after 6 months, myself and a civilian (who wanted to do the PT run) beat him when we did our running test. He was pissed at us because he ran twice a day and was beaten by two people weren't runners.

cantoi
08-27-2014, 11:34 PM
You are a freakin PTL. If you don't want to do the work that comes with being a PTL then drop the extra duty and don't dare use that bullet on your EPR. You really don't deserve to be ranked above anyone if you can't even follow the core values.

I hate running. Hate it. Yet I've ran with many squadron mates who were having trouble with their PT test. I ran about a PT test a month with squadron members when I'd go pace them during their PT test so they could get the passing score they were aiming for.

Niirs
08-27-2014, 11:39 PM
Its incredibly easy for us to piss on the OP for this sentiment, and even easier for those outside of the veil of the internet to do so. However, the attitude presented here, whether a true story or satire, is the system we are given. In order to work within a system where we're told to be good wingmen yet directly rewarded for looking out for #1, we're indirectly encouraged to behave this way. Do as I say, not as I do says the E-9 who stepped on faces to get where he is today.

Yes, we've always been in direct competition before, but it becomes an entirely new issue when quotas or stratification is happening. If our NCOs "work together" like our SNCO corps does because of this, it won't be good for the force.


I agree completely, this PT scenerio is just one example of how Airmen are now in competetion with each other for one of those hard to get 4s or 5s. I would also argue that everyone was not always in competetion with each other, perhaps only for promotion, but not for that 5 eval. The eval rating was simply how well you measured up against your supervisor's standards, if they even provided measurable standards. With the new system we are going to see more Airmen worried about themselves and working to be popular with sq leadership - after all, it won't be your supervisor giving you a 4 or 5, it will be the Sq Supt providing reccomendations and the Sq CC deciding who gets 5s and 4s and 3s. Get ready for a lot more of, 'Look what I did' and a few, 'Amn X was late today, or did you hear about what Amn X did?'

BENDER56
08-27-2014, 11:48 PM
So I had a little argument with me OIC today about PT and the new EPR system. ... as the flight PTL my OIC wants me to help this person out by working out with them.

There have been some thoughtful comments to this so far, but something else about it bothers me.

Is your OIC your direct supervisor? Is the OIC in charge of the PT program and therefore has some authority over you and how you run the program?

Because if neither of those things is true, what the hell business is he doing giving you orders to do anything? What ever happened to the principle of unity of command -- each troop should only report to one person and that person only.

I learned how important this was when I was a 1st Sgt. Many times I'd encounter some troop in an informal setting and he would run some problem by me. Often, the problem had a simple solution and I'd say, "That's easy. All you have to do is call XYZ and ask for Sar'nt So-and-so and he'll take care of it." It felt good. Then, a few days later the troop's supervisor would contact me and want to know how come he (the supervisor) has been working on fixing his troop's problem and now he finds out I took care of it already. Oops. The supervisor was 100% correct -- as easy as it was for me to advise his troop, I shouldn't have done anything without bringing the supervisor into the loop.

So to the OP, if the OIC isn't your supervisor, you need to talk to your real supervisor and let him or her know that you're being inappropriately tasked by others.

SomeRandomGuy
08-28-2014, 03:14 AM
There have been some thoughtful comments to this so far, but something else about it bothers me.

Is your OIC your direct supervisor? Is the OIC in charge of the PT program and therefore has some authority over you and how you run the program?

Because if neither of those things is true, what the hell business is he doing giving you orders to do anything? What ever happened to the principle of unity of command -- each troop should only report to one person and that person only.

I learned how important this was when I was a 1st Sgt. Many times I'd encounter some troop in an informal setting and he would run some problem by me. Often, the problem had a simple solution and I'd say, "That's easy. All you have to do is call XYZ and ask for Sar'nt So-and-so and he'll take care of it." It felt good. Then, a few days later the troop's supervisor would contact me and want to know how come he (the supervisor) has been working on fixing his troop's problem and now he finds out I took care of it already. Oops. The supervisor was 100% correct -- as easy as it was for me to advise his troop, I shouldn't have done anything without bringing the supervisor into the loop.

So to the OP, if the OIC isn't your supervisor, you need to talk to your real supervisor and let him or her know that you're being inappropriately tasked by others.

You aren't by chance a contractor now are you? That's exactly how things work in the government contracting world. I'm a contractor and I got a little "talking to" the other day for helping out on something outside the scope of my contract. One of my co-workers (government civilian) came to me asking about a problem I would know how to fix. They knew I could fix it based on my background. I spent 20-30 mins helping out and we solved the problem. They sent a kudos to my supervisor. Instead of a pat on the back I got in trouble. They were like, who asked you to help with that? Your government supervisor is the only person who gives you orders. Next time it needs to run through them.

technomage1
08-28-2014, 10:46 AM
Personally, I will help someone who asks...and agrees to adapt to my schedule. Those two things indicate they are serious about improving and aren't just playing around. Of course, I'm not a PTL, so it's not my "job" as it were. I'm not a PTL for a reason. I like to workout on my own. To me, unit or group PT is just a giant waste of time. If I get any benefit out of it whatsoever then I consider that a rare bonus.

Shove_your_stupid_meeting
08-28-2014, 10:48 AM
So I had a little argument with me OIC today about PT and the new EPR system. As we all know we are now in direct competition with our peers, this sucks but it's true. One of my flight mates is the same rank as me and is having problems passing his PT test, as the flight PTL my OIC wants me to help this person out by working out with them. I know I might sound like a jerk but my days are already limited and I have my own workout program that I schedule around my work schedule. I don't have the time to baby sit someone else especially now that they are now a direct competitor.

Needless to say I didn't tell this all to my OIC I just said I'll do my best. What is everyone's thoughts on this? Should you go out of your way to help out someone you are competing with?

Well at least you're being honest. I suspect this is exactly the sort of issue that will become more common now.

As a PTL, I think you should help, but he should have to adjust his schedule to yours. This isn't something you should have to worry about in hour 13 or 14 of your day.

Stalwart
08-28-2014, 11:36 AM
So to the OP, if the OIC isn't your supervisor, you need to talk to your real supervisor and let him or her know that you're being inappropriately tasked by others.

Is it possible the OIC is not the direct supervisor but is in charge of the OP as far as the PTL / PT Program?

If I have a Sailor assigned to my Department, Division etc who also holds a command collateral duty for day-to-day duties I am their 'boss' but for that collateral duty they are likely directly responsible to the unit's senior enlisted or XO.

BENDER56
08-28-2014, 09:57 PM
You aren't by chance a contractor now are you? That's exactly how things work in the government contracting world. I'm a contractor and I got a little "talking to" the other day for helping out on something outside the scope of my contract. One of my co-workers (government civilian) came to me asking about a problem I would know how to fix. They knew I could fix it based on my background. I spent 20-30 mins helping out and we solved the problem. They sent a kudos to my supervisor. Instead of a pat on the back I got in trouble. They were like, who asked you to help with that? Your government supervisor is the only person who gives you orders. Next time it needs to run through them.

Nope, not a contractor. I'm a fully retired bum.

I didn't mean for my comment to sound like I had a, "That's not my job," attitude. While I was on active duty, people outside of one's command chain would often task lower-ranking people inappropriately. If someone else in the chain didn't recognize it and push back, you'd have troops getting pulled in different directions. The troops themselves would seldom speak up because they were junior-ranking and usually didn't know any better.

BENDER56
08-28-2014, 09:59 PM
Is it possible the OIC is not the direct supervisor but is in charge of the OP as far as the PTL / PT Program?

If I have a Sailor assigned to my Department, Division etc who also holds a command collateral duty for day-to-day duties I am their 'boss' but for that collateral duty they are likely directly responsible to the unit's senior enlisted or XO.

I alluded to that possibility earlier in the comment you quoted.

DWWSWWD
08-29-2014, 12:13 PM
A couple of schools of thought on this. If someone in your charge doesn't meet standards, do you bear some responsibility for that? I've shared this some time ago.... I got into a strat disagreement with the boss over a MSgt in the unit. Great guy, hitting all the marks but he had 5 Airmen in his section that failed their CDCs. What culture has he created? What level of support? What emphasis on the foundation for job knowledge? I've also been in the position of having folks fail their PT tests and being asked to do more. In that instance we had a very strong PT program and this guy just wouldn't put anything into it. I explained to the boss that we were doing more than could be reasonably expected and at some point you have to leave a little room for initiative and see what an Airmen does with it. That said, you'll never be worse for wear by extending a helping hand to someone that needs it. A lot of words to say, "It depends."

sandsjames
08-29-2014, 12:18 PM
A couple of schools of thought on this. If someone in your charge doesn't meet standards, do you bear some responsibility for that? I've shared this some time ago.... I got into a strat disagreement with the boss over a MSgt in the unit. Great guy, hitting all the marks but he had 5 Airmen in his section that failed their CDCs. What culture has he created? What level of support? What emphasis on the foundation for job knowledge? I've also been in the position of having folks fail their PT tests and being asked to do more. In that instance we had a very strong PT program and this guy just wouldn't put anything into it. I explained to the boss that we were doing more than could be reasonably expected and at some point you have to leave a little room for initiative and see what an Airmen does with it. That said, you'll never be worse for wear by extending a helping hand to someone that needs it. A lot of words to say, "It depends."

A failed CDCs is because of the culture of the shop the guy created? I guess since he was your guy that you'd know best, but people do fail CDCs. Just like you said below that, you can only do so much to get a guy to pass a PT test, even with a strong program. Same goes for CDCs.

Again, you know the details better for your guys, of course. Just curious as to why there's a difference between the CDC thing and the PT thing.

DWWSWWD
08-29-2014, 01:10 PM
They are both examples of a team not fully meeting standards. If a team doesn't meet standards you have to take a look at the leadership. You may find that they are doing everything that should be reasonably expected or you may find a leadership failure. I gave an example of each. In the case of the CDCs, they were just handed to the Airman by the training manager and little was done until the EOC. Nothing in the 623s, no VRE checks, nothing. I think the actual OJT could be regarded by the Airman in the same fashion. Nobody cares, so why should I put effort towards learning my job. I think I'll go run this bake sale because that seems to be something the big guys like. We did several things with the upgrade training program, just one of which was me meeting with the Airman when they enrolled and again before they tested. I let them know what they should expect from the training manager, their supervisors and to let me know if they needed any help or support. Sort of got everyone in line. Before the test I asked them how they felt, how their program went and such. It made a huge difference which further demonstrated that there was a leadership failure in the first place.

sandsjames
08-29-2014, 01:17 PM
They are both examples of a team not fully meeting standards. If a team doesn't meet standards you have to take a look at the leadership. You may find that they are doing everything that should be reasonably expected or you may find a leadership failure. I gave an example of each. In the case of the CDCs, they were just handed to the Airman by the training manager and little was done until the EOC. Nothing in the 623s, no VRE checks, nothing. I think the actual OJT could be regarded by the Airman in the same fashion. Nobody cares, so why should I put effort towards learning my job. I think I'll go run this bake sale because that seems to be something the big guys like. We did several things with the upgrade training program, just one of which was me meeting with the Airman when they enrolled and again before they tested. I let them know what they should expect from the training manager, their supervisors and to let me know if they needed any help or support. Sort of got everyone in line. Before the test I asked them how they felt, how their program went and such. It made a huge difference which further demonstrated that there was a leadership failure in the first place.

I could understand it in a shop that was having multiple people with failures, but if you've got a shop where every Amn coming through is passing/scoring high and then you have one guy who fails then who's to blame? It's always easy to blame the supervisor, I guess. No different than having a shop PT program, everyone does well, one person fails. Is it on the shop? I long for a future where we start holding people responsible for themselves. I fear we'll never see it.

Measure Man
08-29-2014, 08:37 PM
You aren't by chance a contractor now are you? That's exactly how things work in the government contracting world. I'm a contractor and I got a little "talking to" the other day for helping out on something outside the scope of my contract. One of my co-workers (government civilian) came to me asking about a problem I would know how to fix. They knew I could fix it based on my background. I spent 20-30 mins helping out and we solved the problem. They sent a kudos to my supervisor. Instead of a pat on the back I got in trouble. They were like, who asked you to help with that? Your government supervisor is the only person who gives you orders. Next time it needs to run through them.

I'm a contractor and that's not how we operate.

Our guys and girls go above and beyond our scope to help others out all the time.

retiredAFcivvy
08-30-2014, 03:08 AM
[QUOTE=Measure Man;346582]I'm a contractor and that's not how we operate.

Our guys and girls go above and beyond our scope to help others out all the time.[/Q
Not sure of what type contract you are under. Some contracts with incentive clauses may allow that; but, bottom line is that if the Government knowingly allows a contractor to work outside the "scope of the contract" then the contractor at some point in time can file a claim against the government and most likely will win.

The Cooler
09-01-2014, 05:12 AM
interesting topic. i find it curious in a time of downsizing the propensity to babysit continues. meet the standard or don't. there are already resources in place to help with just about everything without having to task out babysitters. i usually use a simple criteria when helping someone.. do they want help? if so then I help them regardless of if we are in some sort of competition or not because ultimately it's the right thing to do. if I am forced to help someone who doesn't want help then my help will be as lazy as their attitude.

Mikan
09-02-2014, 09:40 AM
One day, you are going to be old and look back on your career. Do you want to look at yourself as someone who did their best to help others...or someone who got promoted by stabbing others in the back.

I understand how you feel...but "looking out for #1" never works out the way you want it to...either everyone else will think you are a self-serving scumbag, or you will know it when you look in the mirror.

I agree with Measure Man's sentiment. However, I think it is going to more of a balancing act between extending a hand and looking out for number one.

The AF PT test is not hard to pass, nor is it a surprise when you test. If the OIC is concerned with the PT results of the NCO he should (or approach his supervisor to)... IDK... mentor the guy, find out cause of the issue, (diet, strength, etc.) and direct him to the AF programs that have professionals to assist with his issue. Nearly all bases have some form of running clinic, nutritionist, body fat tester (BOD POD, fitness classes), etc. It shouldn't fall on Shadowless's shoulders to baby this guy, but it seems that the OIC missed a chance to mentor his Airmen and just passed the buck.

Ultimately as an NCO it is on him to take care of something as basic as PT.

Stalwart
09-02-2014, 10:01 AM
Are you the fitness coordinator for the bullet on your eval or so that you can use your talent / ability to help people meet their goals & needs?

FixinFighters81
09-05-2014, 12:01 AM
So I had a little argument with me OIC today about PT and the new EPR system. As we all know we are now in direct competition with our peers, this sucks but it's true. One of my flight mates is the same rank as me and is having problems passing his PT test, as the flight PTL my OIC wants me to help this person out by working out with them. I know I might sound like a jerk but my days are already limited and I have my own workout program that I schedule around my work schedule. I don't have the time to baby sit someone else especially now that they are now a direct competitor.

Needless to say I didn't tell this all to my OIC I just said I'll do my best. What is everyone's thoughts on this? Should you go out of your way to help out someone you are competing with?

Well, seeing as how you are the Flight PTL and your OIC knowing that YOU are the Flight PTL asked you to do something within the perview of being a PTL, I do not see what the problem is here. You're an NCO with a additional duty which directly relates to the request of your OIC. If I was either your Section Chief or OIC I would pretty much take your attitude and look for a new additional duty for you to fill. You are clearly too self involved to handle what's being asked of you as YOUR FLIGHT PTL. If you feel like this guy is such a threat and the only way that you feel you have a leg up on him is because of PT, then you may find yourself in for a rude awakening. All it's going to take is for him to some how pass, throw you under the bus for not doing as you were instructed by your Flight OIC, make you look the @$$ in the situation and guess what his EPR now says MEETS under Physical Fitness, same as yours whether he gets a 75.1 or you get a 99.5. Which comes to the next aspect he may actually be a better worker and produce better results on the job, did you think about that? But, since you can't seem to wrap your head around the fact that you are being put to the test by your leadership any decent NCO would clearly see this as a challenge and accept the responsibilty and guess what? BOOM, mark down for you in any one of atleast three blocks. Get it yet? You're being asked to go above and beyond by doing this you may actually be giving yourself that leg up, but hey do what you want, it's your career and Big boy NCO decision to make. If it were me, I would help the guy out, because I know it's the right thing to do and well, as a Leader it's my responsibility and duty.

Shadowless
09-05-2014, 04:16 PM
Well, seeing as how you are the Flight PTL and your OIC knowing that YOU are the Flight PTL asked you to do something within the perview of being a PTL, I do not see what the problem is here. You're an NCO with a additional duty which directly relates to the request of your OIC. If I was either your Section Chief or OIC I would pretty much take your attitude and look for a new additional duty for you to fill. You are clearly too self involved to handle what's being asked of you as YOUR FLIGHT PTL. If you feel like this guy is such a threat and the only way that you feel you have a leg up on him is because of PT, then you may find yourself in for a rude awakening. All it's going to take is for him to some how pass, throw you under the bus for not doing as you were instructed by your Flight OIC, make you look the @$$ in the situation and guess what his EPR now says MEETS under Physical Fitness, same as yours whether he gets a 75.1 or you get a 99.5. Which comes to the next aspect he may actually be a better worker and produce better results on the job, did you think about that? But, since you can't seem to wrap your head around the fact that you are being put to the test by your leadership any decent NCO would clearly see this as a challenge and accept the responsibilty and guess what? BOOM, mark down for you in any one of atleast three blocks. Get it yet? You're being asked to go above and beyond by doing this you may actually be giving yourself that leg up, but hey do what you want, it's your career and Big boy NCO decision to make. If it were me, I would help the guy out, because I know it's the right thing to do and well, as a Leader it's my responsibility and duty.

Lots of judging without knowing the facts, just one question. Did you copy this post out of the little brown book?

FixinFighters81
09-05-2014, 11:03 PM
Lots of judging without knowing the facts, just one question. Did you copy this post out of the little brown book?

Facts? Judging? Just going off what you posted in your OP, which is what everyone on here is basing their reply off of. Did you think everyone on here was going to paint a picture of sunshine and rainbows for you? You wanted to know what people thought of your situation and how you should approach it. BLUF, if your going to take my reply as a "quote" from the little brown book, then yeah I guess I am guilty of having read over it a time or two, maybe you should do the same and while your at it, grab the little blue one as well. You know the one that contains the little things we refer to as Core Values, maybe a brush up on Service before Self might give you some insight.

Shadowless
09-06-2014, 01:35 AM
Facts? Judging? Just going off what you posted in your OP, which is what everyone on here is basing their reply off of. Did you think everyone on here was going to paint a picture of sunshine and rainbows for you? You wanted to know what people thought of your situation and how you should approach it. BLUF, if your going to take my reply as a "quote" from the little brown book, then yeah I guess I am guilty of having read over it a time or two, maybe you should do the same and while your at it, grab the little blue one as well. You know the one that contains the little things we refer to as Core Values, maybe a brush up on Service before Self might give you some insight.

Look up the word brainwashed, that will give you some insight.

FixinFighters81
09-06-2014, 03:56 AM
Look up the word brainwashed, that will give you some insight.

Yep bleeding blue through and through 👍