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Shadowless
08-20-2014, 03:26 PM
Is it playing the system if you take leave on Thursday but work half your shift, then have leave as your first and last chargeable day of leave with your leave ending on Saturday (non chargeable)? I was told by my leadership that this is 'gaming' the system. Granted, I have worked shift work for 9 years and I'm at my first Mon-Fri assignment.

I told this person that I am not gaming the system at all, I am simply following the rules via leave web and doing what I am sure that person as well as many Mon-Fri people have done for years.

Measure Man
08-20-2014, 03:52 PM
Is it playing the system if you take leave on Thursday but work half your shift, then have leave as your first and last chargeable day of leave with your leave ending on Saturday (non chargeable)?

The half-day thing I always thought was confusing to people. I don't think it authorizes you to take a half day off...what it does is authorize you to leave the area as long as you worked a half day.

For example, if you normally work 7-4...and you start leave tomorrow. This does NOT mean you automatically get to leave work at noon today. It does mean, that say you are owed a few hours comp time and decide take it this afternoon, or get released for some other reason...you can hit the road on nonchargeable leave so long as you worked half the normal day.

So...if your argument is that since leave starts Friday, you are allowed to leave at noon on Thursday...i think that is wrong....but, that part of the rules has never been made entirely clear, so it's just my interpretation...but, I believe it has more to do with the "leave starts in the local area rule" which would normally prevent you from heading out on your trip until midnight...this way you can catch a flight or hit the highways after you are done working Thursday.

I don't see any no issue with your return portion.


I was told by my leadership that this is 'gaming' the system. Granted, I have worked shift work for 9 years and I'm at my first Mon-Fri assignment.

I told this person that I am not gaming the system at all, I am simply following the rules via leave web and doing what I am sure that person as well as many Mon-Fri people have done for years.

Did he have a problem with your start time or stop time? Did you present him with a leave form and say "so....I'm leaving at noon on Thurs." ?

Shadowless
08-20-2014, 03:58 PM
The half-day thing I always thought was confusing to people. I don't think it authorizes you to take a half day off...what it does is authorize you to leave the area as long as you worked a half day.

For example, if you normally work 7-4...and you start leave tomorrow. This does NOT mean you automatically get to leave work at noon today. It does mean, that say you are owed a few hours comp time and decide take it this afternoon, or get released for some other reason...you can hit the road on nonchargeable leave so long as you worked half the normal day.

So...if your argument is that since leave starts Friday, you are allowed to leave at noon on Thursday...i think that is wrong....but, that part of the rules has never been made entirely clear, so it's just my interpretation...but, I believe it has more to do with the "leave starts in the local area rule" which would normally prevent you from heading out on your trip until midnight...this way you can catch a flight or hit the highways after you are done working Thursday.

I don't see any no issue with your return portion.



Did he have a problem with your start time or stop time? Did you present him with a leave form and say "so....I'm leaving at noon on Thurs." ?

Thanks for the input, well it never really got that far. He just said I was gaming the system and didn't really ask any other questions. But like you said, there is no clear guidance which there should be. On leave web it clearly states that if member has completed over 50% of their duty day then that day of leave is no chargeable. I suppose I take this leave situation personally because being a shift worker all my career I was always scheduled to work up to the day before leave and the day right after leave no matter what. Which meant I had to waste a day of leave if I wanted to relax the night I returned. However, if I worked Mon-Fri as long as I didn't leave the local area I could take 5 days of leave and get 2 days off before and after. Now is that gaming the system?

Measure Man
08-20-2014, 04:09 PM
However, if I worked Mon-Fri as long as I didn't leave the local area I could take 5 days of leave and get 2 days off before and after. Now is that gaming the system?

No, that is not at all gaming any system. In fact, this is the best way to take leave, IMO.

I've pretty much been a M-F guy my whole career...and took many M-F leaves without leaving the area. That is normal stuff. Even better if there is a holiday and you take T-F...9 days off, 4 days charged! Or, take M-W on Thanksgiving week...best 3 days of leave ever! Or course, you can't leave the area for the entire time, only the time you are on leave status.

Zxc
08-20-2014, 05:02 PM
Taking local area leave in conjunction w/ holidays, etc is not gaming the system. They're giving you 2 days off and a weekend, and you take the other 3? Sure, why not.

The half day shit doesn't work for me though, and the guidance is way too unclear. I've asked our leave monitor multiple times (a former Chief, have you) and haven't gotten a straight answer.

My take on it is this... yes, under half a day is non-chargable, but don't submit it to me and expect to leave at noon unless I know you're traveling that evening or have a lot of stuff to take care of. If someone doesn't like it they can force it through the shirt or legal and I'll bend if need be, but in my M-F office we don't work long enough hours to justify "gaming the system."

Of course my opinion and personal way of doing things probably conflicts with the AFI. If the AFI was clear / made sense I would just do that...

TJMAC77SP
08-20-2014, 05:05 PM
I agree with MM. The only issue comes into play if there is a set distance declared for the "commute distance" at your location. If you are outside of that area and not on official leave there can be 'line of duty determination' issues. A petty issue but one that has bitten more than a few people.

Disclaimer: I have been retired for quite awhile so if there is now a universal commute distance my comments may be moot. In my day, each base set (or didn't set) the distance considered the 'local area'.

Zxc
08-20-2014, 05:15 PM
I agree with MM. The only issue comes into play if there is a set distance declared for the "commute distance" at your location. If you are outside of that area and not on official leave there can be 'line of duty determination' issues. A petty issue but one that has bitten more than a few people.

Disclaimer: I have been retired for quite awhile so if there is now a universal commute distance my comments may be moot. In my day, each base set (or didn't set) the distance considered the 'local area'.

"Local area" is generally defined locally. Our Wing/CC does it but a few years ago it was left to our Sq/CC. For us its "8 hours" travel time, so depending on the season and conditions the area is expected to shrink.

Measure Man
08-20-2014, 05:47 PM
I agree with MM. The only issue comes into play if there is a set distance declared for the "commute distance" at your location. If you are outside of that area and not on official leave there can be 'line of duty determination' issues. A petty issue but one that has bitten more than a few people.

Disclaimer: I have been retired for quite awhile so if there is now a universal commute distance my comments may be moot. In my day, each base set (or didn't set) the distance considered the 'local area'.


"Local area" is generally defined locally. Our Wing/CC does it but a few years ago it was left to our Sq/CC. For us its "8 hours" travel time, so depending on the season and conditions the area is expected to shrink.

I am testing my memory banks a little...but, as I recall...the distance thing was for how far you can go without being on leave...i.e. for a 3-day normal weekend.

Leave is supposed to start and stop in the local area (i.e. your home or reasonably around your home.)

So...let's say you are stationed in Virgina. On a long weekend, you could go to NYC (about 6 hours drive) with no trouble and not being on leave.

But, let's say you are spending the week on leave in NYC. If you took leave starting with chargeable on Monday...first day non-chargeable being Sunday. You are not supposed to leave on Saturday to NYC, even though your non-leave buddy could. You could leave on Sunday to NYC though because that is your first day of leave status (nonchargeable leave). NYC is not your "local area" for starting leave just because it is within your allowable travel area for pass. Don't think that was too much enforced except for flying Space-A

If you were signing up for Space-A, for example, you could not sign up on Saturday, you would have to wait for Sunday.

At least that's how I remember it.

Oh...in reply to the OP...that was another reason for the half-day thing, after half your shift the day before chargeable leave starts, you can sign up for Space-A. When overseas, if someone was starting leave on Fri as you wanted to do...at 1100 on Thurs, you could sign up for Space-A...even if you still had to work until 1600.

TJMAC77SP
08-20-2014, 06:51 PM
So, it sounds like nothing has changed.......local commuting distance is still determined locally.

Airborne
08-20-2014, 07:12 PM
We have been at war for 13.5 years and we are worried about 4 hours? I usually cut people out after lunch before their leave begins because I know their brain is halfway out of the door anyway. I actually thought the half day had something do with signing up for space a. Whatever, I have a real job to worry about. Enjoy your leave.

SomeRandomGuy
08-20-2014, 07:50 PM
Is it playing the system if you take leave on Thursday but work half your shift, then have leave as your first and last chargeable day of leave with your leave ending on Saturday (non chargeable)? I was told by my leadership that this is 'gaming' the system. Granted, I have worked shift work for 9 years and I'm at my first Mon-Fri assignment.

I told this person that I am not gaming the system at all, I am simply following the rules via leave web and doing what I am sure that person as well as many Mon-Fri people have done for years.

Maybe the problem is how you worded things. I have read your post here at least 4 times and I still don't entriely understand what you are saying here.


Is it playing the system if you take leave on Thursday but work half your shift

Why did you work half your shift on thursday if you were on leave?


then have leave as your first and last chargeable day of leave with your leave ending on Saturday (non chargeable)?

Which days are chargeable? Saturday is non-chargeable day? When do you get back in town? Are you trying to say you want to leave on thursday and come back on saturday but only be charged for Friday? I have never seen that anywhere other than people who are released by their supervisor early on thursday. That isn't guaranteed though.

For what it's worth you may think us M-F people have been gaming the system for years (and some of us have) but there are some uints whoa re very strict about leave policy. It basically depends on what your supervisor signs and whether anyone at the orderly room is paying attention. I have seen all kinds of shenanigans with the leave program. I actually saw one guy who extended his "terminal leave" by ending it several times on Friday and then coming into work for 1 day on monday. He stayed in the local area (even after retired) and the unit didn't care so it was fine. As an example how it worked let's look at this month.

He works up until friday August 15th. Starts leave on August 18th and ends it on August 22nd. Comes into work on August 25th. Starts a new leave on 26-29 August. Comes in to work Sept. 1st. By doing this he avoided beingc harged weekend. Like I said the unit commander agreed to it. The downside for the member was that if the unit really wanted they could call him on any random saturday and have him come work since he wasn't on leave and was in teh local area. If I was a commander and someone wanted to play this game I would probably have a few recalls on weekends just for fun.

sandsjames
08-20-2014, 09:53 PM
As far as I know, and have been told, the original purpose of the 1/2 day was in order to make it easier to get hops. Since you have to be officially on leave to sign up for a hop, it helped people keep from wasting a day of leave, allowing them to sign up the day before.

Shadowless
08-20-2014, 11:10 PM
Maybe the problem is how you worded things. I have read your post here at least 4 times and I still don't entriely understand what you are saying here.



Why did you work half your shift on thursday if you were on leave?



Which days are chargeable? Saturday is non-chargeable day? When do you get back in town? Are you trying to say you want to leave on thursday and come back on saturday but only be charged for Friday? I have never seen that anywhere other than people who are released by their supervisor early on thursday. That isn't guaranteed though.

For what it's worth you may think us M-F people have been gaming the system for years (and some of us have) but there are some uints whoa re very strict about leave policy. It basically depends on what your supervisor signs and whether anyone at the orderly room is paying attention. I have seen all kinds of shenanigans with the leave program. I actually saw one guy who extended his "terminal leave" by ending it several times on Friday and then coming into work for 1 day on monday. He stayed in the local area (even after retired) and the unit didn't care so it was fine. As an example how it worked let's look at this month.

He works up until friday August 15th. Starts leave on August 18th and ends it on August 22nd. Comes into work on August 25th. Starts a new leave on 26-29 August. Comes in to work Sept. 1st. By doing this he avoided beingc harged weekend. Like I said the unit commander agreed to it. The downside for the member was that if the unit really wanted they could call him on any random saturday and have him come work since he wasn't on leave and was in teh local area. If I was a commander and someone wanted to play this game I would probably have a few recalls on weekends just for fun.

Here's the example, let's say I want to do an event on Friday morning very early. There is a curfew in place of course. So lets say I want to do an event that is in the local area but very far and very early. I decide to work half a day on Thursday so I don't get release at 11pm and have to wake up the next day at 5am. The current leave policy says if you don't want to waste a day of leave then working 50% of the day is not considered chargeable. Of course your boss or supervisor could have you work as long as they want but that's another argument. As far as when your leave ends, it says on leave web that if you are not leaving the local area that your leave can end on the first non duty day and not be considered chargeable. For me it's a no brainer, even if I am not planning on doing anything or going anywhere that Saturday why not have it count as leave and be in chargeable?

The point I am trying to make is, not why the person is taking leave. The point is, under the current leave web rules and policy is it gaming the system? Honestly, the example you used sounds like he was gaming the system, but under our rules I don't think he was. Yeah it sucked and he looked bad but if he is playing by the rules why should be he judged? Have recalls just for fun? Great way to screw everyone else over.

The leave policy needs to be the same across the board, someone working Mon-Fri should be able to take leave Mon-Fri and not be charged the weekends as long as they are not leaving the local area, the same should be true for shift workers and those working panama schedules. There days off should not be chargeable as long as they don't leave the local area.

SomeRandomGuy
08-21-2014, 03:17 AM
Here's the example, let's say I want to do an event on Friday morning very early. There is a curfew in place of course. So lets say I want to do an event that is in the local area but very far and very early. I decide to work half a day on Thursday so I don't get release at 11pm and have to wake up the next day at 5am. The current leave policy says if you don't want to waste a day of leave then working 50% of the day is not considered chargeable. Of course your boss or supervisor could have you work as long as they want but that's another argument. As far as when your leave ends, it says on leave web that if you are not leaving the local area that your leave can end on the first non duty day and not be considered chargeable. For me it's a no brainer, even if I am not planning on doing anything or going anywhere that Saturday why not have it count as leave and be in chargeable?

The point I am trying to make is, not why the person is taking leave. The point is, under the current leave web rules and policy is it gaming the system? Honestly, the example you used sounds like he was gaming the system, but under our rules I don't think he was. Yeah it sucked and he looked bad but if he is playing by the rules why should be he judged? Have recalls just for fun? Great way to screw everyone else over.

The leave policy needs to be the same across the board, someone working Mon-Fri should be able to take leave Mon-Fri and not be charged the weekends as long as they are not leaving the local area, the same should be true for shift workers and those working panama schedules. There days off should not be chargeable as long as they don't leave the local area.

So really your question isn't about leave policy at all. Your actual question is more about the definition of what the local area is. Your situation is obviously complicated by the Korea curfew but still seems simple. If you want to go somewhere on Friday you are welcome to leave as soon as you get off work on Thursday. If your supervisor releases you early then you already worked a duty day so it can't be leave and you are free to go. As far as the end date you are absolutely correct that if you are in the local area Saturday isn't chargeable.

I actually had this question come up at my last base because one of my troops was from 3 hours away. It was a known fact he drove home most weekends on Friday after work. He wasn't on leave but was still in the local area (as defined by that base). Sometimes when he would take leave people wanted to question when he actually left for home.

For example if he is on leave starting Monday can he go to his parents house on Friday after work? I always just told him to put down his leave as local area and it wasn't a problem to take M-F leave.

For what it's worth you see this same situation outside of the military too. If you work at a company that has sick days and vacation days some supervisors hassle you about which type you are taking. The answer is that most companies just call all days off PTO (paid time off). Easy and simple. No need for doctors note or any explanation. You took a day off. Simple.

Shadowless
08-21-2014, 03:46 AM
So really your question isn't about leave policy at all. Your actual question is more about the definition of what the local area is. Your situation is obviously complicated by the Korea curfew but still seems simple. If you want to go somewhere on Friday you are welcome to leave as soon as you get off work on Thursday. If your supervisor releases you early then you already worked a duty day so it can't be leave and you are free to go. As far as the end date you are absolutely correct that if you are in the local area Saturday isn't chargeable.

I actually had this question come up at my last base because one of my troops was from 3 hours away. It was a known fact he drove home most weekends on Friday after work. He wasn't on leave but was still in the local area (as defined by that base). Sometimes when he would take leave people wanted to question when he actually left for home.

For example if he is on leave starting Monday can he go to his parents house on Friday after work? I always just told him to put down his leave as local area and it wasn't a problem to take M-F leave.

For what it's worth you see this same situation outside of the military too. If you work at a company that has sick days and vacation days some supervisors hassle you about which type you are taking. The answer is that most companies just call all days off PTO (paid time off). Easy and simple. No need for doctors note or any explanation. You took a day off. Simple.

Actually my question has nothing to do with the local area, my question is basicly if the rules say you that you will not be charged leave if you work half your duty day then why can't a person take advantage of the written RULE and work half a day and take the other half off leading into a full day of leave? That is basicly my question.

SomeRandomGuy
08-21-2014, 04:08 AM
Actually my question has nothing to do with the local area, my question is basicly if the rules say you that you will not be charged leave if you work half your duty day then why can't a person take advantage of the written RULE and work half a day and take the other half off leading into a full day of leave? That is basicly my question.

They absolutely can do exactly what you are asking. It isn't gaming the system unless the person is trying to say they are entitled to only work a half day. If I'm your supervisor and I say that you can go home at noon (half day for us office folks)your day is done. If you turn around and say, "Well, I think I'm gonna drive to my parents house 2 hours away" that doesn't suddenly turn the day into leave. You already finished your work day. Now on the other hand if you show up at 8am and say, "Hey, I'm on leave tomorrow so I'm leaving at noon today" that's a whole different story.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
08-21-2014, 01:54 PM
Lots of references to this so-called "gaming" the system. What does that mean? I think it's a popular accusation by those who know you are following the rules (to the tee), but they feel the rules are too generous. In other words, they personally don't like the rules, but that's your fault somehow. Therefore, since you're one of those FEW people smart enough to actually use the rules to your advantage, then of course you are "gaming" the system, as opposed to simply using the system.

TJMAC77SP
08-21-2014, 02:33 PM
Lots of references to this so-called "gaming" the system. What does that mean? I think it's a popular accusation by those who know you are following the rules (to the tee), but they feel the rules are too generous. In other words, they personally don't like the rules, but that's your fault somehow. Therefore, since you're one of those FEW people smart enough to actually use the rules to your advantage, then of course you are "gaming" the system, as opposed to simply using the system.

I was wondering the same thing after reading several posts on this thread. If something isn't specifically prohibited how can it be denied as 'gaming the system'?

Stalwart
08-21-2014, 02:51 PM
Lots of references to this so-called "gaming" the system. What does that mean? I think it's a popular accusation by those who know you are following the rules (to the tee), but they feel the rules are too generous. In other words, they personally don't like the rules, but that's your fault somehow. Therefore, since you're one of those FEW people smart enough to actually use the rules to your advantage, then of course you are "gaming" the system, as opposed to simply using the system.

Pretty much sums it up. +1

I am currently in a joint command, and the Navy & Marine Corps rules are very different on when we can start & stop leave. The command pretty much defaults to AF admin rules (funding for civilians etc via the AF.) About two months ago there was an issue with a Navy person being charged one more day of leave than an AF person even though both were gone the same number of days (due to taking M-F leave.) Despite the rightful dissatisfaction, there is just a different way the AF leave & liberty policy works. As a result though, the 1/2 days off before commencing leave have for the most part gone away.

SomeRandomGuy
08-21-2014, 03:04 PM
Lots of references to this so-called "gaming" the system. What does that mean? I think it's a popular accusation by those who know you are following the rules (to the tee), but they feel the rules are too generous. In other words, they personally don't like the rules, but that's your fault somehow. Therefore, since you're one of those FEW people smart enough to actually use the rules to your advantage, then of course you are "gaming" the system, as opposed to simply using the system.

The problem is that people who game the system create a system with so many rules that no one can possibly know what isn't allowed and what is. Here is an example of gaming the system for you. You recieve TDY orders to attend a 2 day class at Keesler AFB. You plan on flying to Keesler and ask your unit if they will authorize a rental car. The finance douchebag in your unit says no because Keesler AFB has a shuttle you can use. You are still entitled to a taxi to and from the airport. When you ask the taxi driver how much a one way fare is he says it will be $30. In your head you quickly do the math and determine that you will also need a taxi to get back to the airport later. That will be 2 taxis at $30 each for $60. A quick check at the rental car desk tells you that you can get a military rate on a rental car for $25 per day.

If you rent the car for around $50 and turn in the receipt on your voucher finance will deny it because a rental car is not authorized. If you simply claim $60 for the taxis and don't provide any reciept finance will pay it. That's gaming the system but really the system is stupid. In an ideal world the travel regulation would be about 1 page that just said to use common sense. The problem is everyone has a different defintion of common sense. That leads to a 1500 page regulation that can easily be gamed by finding weaknesses in the way things are worded.

Zxc
08-21-2014, 03:08 PM
I see a big difference between someone taking a couple weeks of leave and a half day prior, and someone who wants to take leave every friday and expects a half day thursday every time. The first--ya cut them loose, their head is out of the game and they're likely traveling. The second, they're gaming it in my opinion.

fufu
08-21-2014, 03:50 PM
When you submit a request thru leaveweb. It says, "Leave Status date/time". If you submit the leave status as 22 Aug/1200 and its approved, then you can leave work at 12 the day BEFORE your chargeable leave days start.

Not that complicated....

And....who gets butt hurt over someone leaving early the day before their leave starts? Its one thing if they are taking one day off....but if they are going on vacation for 2 weeks...they don't care about work when they come in the day prior let alone by noon.

Measure Man
08-21-2014, 04:23 PM
Anybody remember "basket leaves" in the 80s?

Basket Leaves were for when you wanted to go outside normal traveling distance on your time off...let's say you had a 4 day weekend and it was your Mother's birthday, so you wanted to fly home to Miami, FL from San Antonio, TX without burning leave for a holiday.

You could fill out a leave form, your supervisor would keep it in his basket...if you showed up for work on Monday and everything went well, the leave form went in the shredder. If you got delayed or something happened while you were on leave...then on Monday morning the supervisor submitted the leave paperwork. Basket leaves used to be very common. Everyone would take a basket leave to get either Christmas or New Year's week off for free. You could go home for Christmas, if something came up, call your supervisor and tell him to submit the leave form. I think nowadays, they make you at least report in one day during to the week so as not to exceed the 4-day pass rule and you can't leave the local area.

In the late 80s they outlawed that with the rule that you had to have a Leave Number before departing on leave...before that rule you had to have just "submitted the request with Verbal approval", which is what allowed your supervisor to hold it.


Gaming the system: Exploiting rules to the nth degree to achieve a benefit they were not designed for. I once had a supervisor who would not grant 1-day leaves. If you needed 1-day of leave, he would just give you the day off. He did not announce this policy...you wouldn't know about it until you tried to take 1 day of leave...so many people never found out about it. Of course, one chucklehead has to ruin it by repeatedly requesting 1-day of leave anytime something more interesting than work came along...1 day of leave to attend the county fair...1 day of leave for second child's birthday...1 day of leave of this an that. That is gaming the system. True it is not the "official system" in that case, but the local system. Same idea applies. The supervisor wanted to provide an occasional "gift" to troops who had a need...but someone had to take advantage of him, so the policy had to stop. The same can be done with the official written rules...as others have said, someone tries to do it every Tues and Thurs...and work half days Mon and Wed...that is gaming the system, though no rules are broken.

Cache Trogle
08-21-2014, 04:55 PM
To the OP; I'd offer this advice-- work with your Supervisor. IE; let him/her know your situation, your intent. What your plan is and what you'd like to do. I'd wager if you are a solid troop, you will more often than not get what you want (when it comes to leave).
*a solid troop wouldn't expect something outlandish

I had a SSgt work for me yrs ago who was big fan of the sports teams on the other side of the state. Out of local area and about 400miles away. There are 8 home games in the NFL. And he'd like to see at least 4-5 of those. So, I had him take leave those wknds he went to a game. Fri, Sat, Sun. He left work on Friday when the rest of us left work. Sometimes we left early, sometimes we left late. And every single time he went to a game he was back at work on Monday morning with the rest of us. And every single time I had him cancel leave.
He cherished that leave time and wanted to save it, while still seeing his team play. Why? Becuase he was a single Dad and his daughter lived in that same area. So he got to see her too.
And for record; when he got her in the summer he took a ton of leave. And we absorbed it. We were a small shop. He was a solid troop. He never asked for anything outlandish. And he pulled his weight.
Did he game the system? Who cares. He saw his situation and he made the best of it. And he had open communication with his Supervisor. Me.
We could have gotten out the AFI and followed all the rules and did everything exactly by the book. And the msn (which is the key) wouldn't have changed.

Shadowless
08-21-2014, 04:55 PM
Here is a great question for you all, is it gaming the system if someone works 12 hour panama schedule and they decide to take two days of leave in the local area between their regularly scheduled 2 days off and 3 days off. Keep in mind they are not leaving the local area. So under this example, the person takes 2 days of leave and gets 7 days off out of it. Is that gaming the system?

TJMAC77SP
08-21-2014, 05:49 PM
Isee a big difference between someone taking a couple weeks of leave and a halfday prior, and someone who wants to take leave every friday and expects a halfday thursday every time. The first--ya cut them loose, their head is out of thegame and they're likely traveling. The second, they're gaming it in myopinion.


Gaming the system:Exploiting rules to the nth degree to achieve a benefit they were not designedfor. I once had a supervisor who would not grant 1-day leaves. If you needed1-day of leave, he would just give you the day off. He did not announce thispolicy...you wouldn't know about it until you tried to take 1 day of leave...somany people never found out about it. Of course, one chucklehead has to ruin itby repeatedly requesting 1-day of leave anytime something more interesting thanwork came along...1 day of leave to attend the county fair...1 day of leave forsecond child's birthday...1 day of leave of this an that. That is gaming thesystem. True it is not the "official system" in that case, but thelocal system. Same idea applies. The supervisor wanted to provide an occasional"gift" to troops who had a need...but someone had to take advantageof him, so the policy had to stop. The same can be done with the officialwritten rules...as others have said, someone tries to do it every Tues andThurs...and work half days Mon and Wed...that is gaming the system, though norules are broken.

I would call these examples gaming the system so I stand corrected. As with most stuff, it is up to thesupervisor to be fair and consistent.

MM. I remember basket leaves. Just before they implemented the online leave system I found out that our section officer (a captain) had told one of the junior enlisted troops to just take two weeks off at Christmas and he would hold the leave form. I had to fix thatq uick. It was actually the troop who told me about this. She didn’t think it was right.

I also had a supervisor who wouldn’t grant one day leaves. He just gave you the day off. Luckily no one abused that and to this day he is one of my favorite bosses.

Measure Man
08-21-2014, 06:14 PM
In the civilian world, leaves are much easier. I mean private company civilian, not DOD civilian.

Hourly employees take leave by the hour.

So, if you're scheduled to work and don't want to...you take that many hours of leave. If you're on Panama schedule...you take 12 hours. In our company we do it down to the tenth of an hour...so you can take 0.3 hours if you want to leave 18 minutes early. Leave must be taken in 6 minute increments because we have only 1 decimal place. So, you can not take 15 minutes of leave...it's either 12 or 18. So, if a guy comes in 5 mins late, he is not charged, 6 min lates he is charged 0.1 hrs. Of course, this makes the de facto reporting time 5 mins after the real reporting time :-)

I am salaried, not hourly, so mine works different. I am not charged leave for appointments, etc. unless I take the entire day off, then I am charged the 8 hours. So, in reality, if I work for 5 minutes, I get credit/paid for the entire day. I also do not get overtime if I work extra. So, mine is similar to military, except I only get charged for scheduled work days, not weekends or holidays...and no cares if I'm in the local area or not, I could fly to Europe on the weekend if I wanted to.

Could I game that system? You bet I could! Would I get fired? Probably, though I'd broke no rules. I'm also an "at will" employee, meaning I can be let go at any time for no reason.

It is a double-edge sword sometimes. A lot of our hourly guys take Friday afternoon off, or take off a couple hours early just because the weather is nice...which yeah, I would love to do on occasion and would not even be charged for it...but, Knowing you won't be charged for it makes you feel a little guilty doing it "just because I feel like it"...though, I have no problem doing it if I need it...like going out of town and need to beat traffic or something and not much going on, etc.

Of course, our "leave" is the same as sick...so military, if you get sick it doesn't count against your leave...for us, you use up your leave and when you run out you are without pay, except for state disability payments, which here is like 2/3 your pay I think.

I did get a lot more time off as a military member than I do now...

SomeRandomGuy
08-21-2014, 07:58 PM
I would call these examples gaming the system so I stand corrected. As with most stuff, it is up to thesupervisor to be fair and consistent.

MM. I remember basket leaves. Just before they implemented the online leave system I found out that our section officer (a captain) had told one of the junior enlisted troops to just take two weeks off at Christmas and he would hold the leave form. I had to fix thatq uick. It was actually the troop who told me about this. She didn’t think it was right.

I also had a supervisor who wouldn’t grant one day leaves. He just gave you the day off. Luckily no one abused that and to this day he is one of my favorite bosses.

I have seen the leave system gamed quite often. I have even gamed it myself. The thing that interests me though is that most people do not consider their actions. Unused leave can be sold back and the end of enlistment or upon separation. The rate payable is monthly base pay for the current rank divided by 30. In your two weeks off example that captain gave away almost half of a month's pay. The problem is that the captain is giving away money that isn't his. Maybe he should run for political office.

TJMAC77SP
08-21-2014, 08:19 PM
I have seen the leave system gamed quite often. I have even gamed it myself. The thing that interests me though is that most people do not consider their actions. Unused leave can be sold back and the end of enlistment or upon separation. The rate payable is monthly base pay for the current rank divided by 30. In your two weeks off example that captain gave away almost half of a month's pay. The problem is that the captain is giving away money that isn't his. Maybe he should run for political office.

Well, he is out of the AF now and political office would be right up his ally. I used to refer to him as a used car salesman.

BENDER56
08-21-2014, 10:54 PM
Here is a great question for you all, is it gaming the system if someone works 12 hour panama schedule and they decide to take two days of leave in the local area between their regularly scheduled 2 days off and 3 days off. Keep in mind they are not leaving the local area. So under this example, the person takes 2 days of leave and gets 7 days off out of it. Is that gaming the system?

Paragraph 8.4.3. of the AFI says, "A special pass may be taken in conjunction with leave without a duty day between the special pass and leave period. The member must be physically present in the local area when departing and returning from leave."

It would seem that by specifying "special pass", it excludes regular pass periods from these guidelines, but throughout my career they were treated the same. So that meant you could start leave at the end of your usual pass period (that is, your normally scheduled days off) and end your leave on the day before your next pass period and only get charged for the days you were on leave. People who work M-F used to do this all the time. Start leave on Monday and end it on Friday. You're off nine straight days but only charged for five. However, you have to be in the local area on Monday and Friday. The example you gave is perfectly legit.

Speaking of "local area", many people seem unclear on this concept. Here's what the AFI says in paragraph 8.1.2.: "The local area is the place from which they regularly commute to work." Or, simply put, it's where you live. Notice it can be different for different people of the same unit.

What the "local area" is not, is some mileage limit beyond which you aren't supposed to go on your day off. In fact, when you're on your day of you can go anywhere you want. You want to fly to Australia on a three-day weekend? Go for it. Just keep in mind there might be consequences if you fail to get back in time for the start of your next duty day. But it's a widespread misconception that you can't leave the local area without being on leave. Here's what the AFI say about your days off:

8.2. Regular Pass.
8.2.1. A regular pass (liberty) starts after normal working hours on a given day and stops at the beginning of normal working hours on the next working day.

8.4. Regular and Special Pass Guidelines. Unit commanders:
8.4.1. Impose no mileage restrictions. However, they may require members to be able to return to duty within a reasonable time in the event of an operational mission requirement such as a recall, unit alert, or unit emergency.

sandsjames
08-22-2014, 01:28 AM
When you submit a request thru leaveweb. It says, "Leave Status date/time". If you submit the leave status as 22 Aug/1200 and its approved, then you can leave work at 12 the day BEFORE your chargeable leave days start.

Not that complicated....

And....who gets butt hurt over someone leaving early the day before their leave starts? Its one thing if they are taking one day off....but if they are going on vacation for 2 weeks...they don't care about work when they come in the day prior let alone by noon.


What's the difference if it's one day or two weeks? Policy is policy. There's nothing that exempts one day. The same options are still available on the leave form.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
08-22-2014, 02:23 AM
The problem is that people who game the system create a system with so many rules that no one can possibly know what isn't allowed and what is. Here is an example of gaming the system for you. You recieve TDY orders to attend a 2 day class at Keesler AFB. You plan on flying to Keesler and ask your unit if they will authorize a rental car. The finance douchebag in your unit says no because Keesler AFB has a shuttle you can use. You are still entitled to a taxi to and from the airport. When you ask the taxi driver how much a one way fare is he says it will be $30. In your head you quickly do the math and determine that you will also need a taxi to get back to the airport later. That will be 2 taxis at $30 each for $60. A quick check at the rental car desk tells you that you can get a military rate on a rental car for $25 per day.

If you rent the car for around $50 and turn in the receipt on your voucher finance will deny it because a rental car is not authorized. If you simply claim $60 for the taxis and don't provide any reciept finance will pay it. That's gaming the system but really the system is stupid. In an ideal world the travel regulation would be about 1 page that just said to use common sense. The problem is everyone has a different defintion of common sense. That leads to a 1500 page regulation that can easily be gamed by finding weaknesses in the way things are worded.

If you rent a car for $50, then claim $60 in cab fees (no receipt), then you are breaking the law. Hardly a good analogy to the leave scenario where someone actually follows some rules that others feel are too generous.

Capt Alfredo
08-22-2014, 11:07 AM
Here is a great question for you all, is it gaming the system if someone works 12 hour panama schedule and they decide to take two days of leave in the local area between their regularly scheduled 2 days off and 3 days off. Keep in mind they are not leaving the local area. So under this example, the person takes 2 days of leave and gets 7 days off out of it. Is that gaming the system?

No, but I've had commanders abolish the Panama schedule because airmen "were getting too much time off" never mind that a person on that schedule works an average of 42 hours a week (plus shift change, other off-shift appointments). Never underestimate the power of a commander to embrace perception-as-reality.

Capt Alfredo
08-22-2014, 11:10 AM
8.4. Regular and Special Pass Guidelines. Unit commanders:
8.4.1. Impose no mileage restrictions. However, they may require members to be able to return to duty within a reasonable time in the event of an operational mission requirement such as a recall, unit alert, or unit emergency.

I've seen more commanders and supervisors abuse 8.4.1 than just about any other reg. All those milage radius restrictions are illegal.

Shadowless
08-24-2014, 10:16 AM
What's the difference if it's one day or two weeks? Policy is policy. There's nothing that exempts one day. The same options are still available on the leave form.

Couldnt agree any better. Policy is policy.....

technomage1
08-25-2014, 08:05 AM
I don't believe the OP is gaming the system at all. The AFI is pretty clear if you work 50% of the day you won't be charged leave for that day. If you return on Sat then you're not charged for that day (on a regular M-F shift schedule). To me, that's being smart and knowing the rules.

Zxc
08-25-2014, 03:25 PM
I don't believe the OP is gaming the system at all. The AFI is pretty clear if you work 50% of the day you won't be charged leave for that day. If you return on Sat then you're not charged for that day (on a regular M-F shift schedule). To me, that's being smart and knowing the rules.

As someone who works a fairly steady M-F shift, if one of your junior supervisors had 50 days of leave build up and wanted to take half of every thursday and every friday off, would you approve it? What about half of tuesday and wednesday, and then half of thursday and friday off? Technically its plausible, but is there a limit?

technomage1
08-25-2014, 03:42 PM
As someone who works a fairly steady M-F shift, if one of your junior supervisors had 50 days of leave build up and wanted to take half of every thursday and every friday off, would you approve it? What about half of tuesday and wednesday, and then half of thursday and friday off? Technically its plausible, but is there a limit?

First we'd have a discussion about proper leave management and how building up 50 days of (I assume) use or lose isn't acceptable except in cases like year long deployments. Next, I'd work to accommodate the members leave right while balancing mission and other peoples leave rights. Seriously, though...has anyone ever tried this, anywhere? We could probably look at any AFI and some genius is going to try a stunt like this. As an example, if the CC has a policy of giving a day pass for a 90 or above fittest, can I fit test every month and get 12 days off?

sandsjames
08-25-2014, 04:46 PM
As someone who works a fairly steady M-F shift, if one of your junior supervisors had 50 days of leave build up and wanted to take half of every thursday and every friday off, would you approve it? What about half of tuesday and wednesday, and then half of thursday and friday off? Technically its plausible, but is there a limit?

What if someone schedules leave for Wednesday, gets the free half day on Tuesday, then comes in Wednesday morning and cancels his leave? What if they do this every day? Why isn't that referenced in the AFI???!!!

There is always a limit and if you could find me one person who would try this I'd be more than extremely surprised.

Shadowless
08-26-2014, 03:18 AM
What if someone schedules leave for Wednesday, gets the free half day on Tuesday, then comes in Wednesday morning and cancels his leave? What if they do this every day? Why isn't that referenced in the AFI???!!!

There is always a limit and if you could find me one person who would try this I'd be more than extremely surprised.

I guess it just comes down to both common sense and knowing the leave rules. Me personally, when I plan on going on leave I want to save as much as I an. For example, I am planning on taking leave next month. I want to save my first day of leave so I will schedule a late flight after 6pm so I can work half that day and not be charged for it, then I will return Saturday which is a non chargeable day of leave so I can again save a day of leave. Therefore I should only be charged 4 days of leave for about a week of vacation. I don't think this is gaming the system, I think this is smart management of leave.

sandsjames
08-26-2014, 11:23 AM
I guess it just comes down to both common sense and knowing the leave rules. Me personally, when I plan on going on leave I want to save as much as I an. For example, I am planning on taking leave next month. I want to save my first day of leave so I will schedule a late flight after 6pm so I can work half that day and not be charged for it, then I will return Saturday which is a non chargeable day of leave so I can again save a day of leave. Therefore I should only be charged 4 days of leave for about a week of vacation. I don't think this is gaming the system, I think this is smart management of leave.

You say this as if I'm disagreeing...

Though returning on Saturday is against the AFI. Leave must be started and finished in the local area. Getting back in Saturday would make Saturday a charged leave day. Not that I care...I'm not gonna lie and say I never did it.

Monkey
10-06-2014, 08:05 PM
The problem with "gaming the system" is that it becomes a burden on others. I used to work with a guy who would always take leave for the week when there was a 3 or 4-day weekend. He just wanted to optimize his 30 days of leave to get the maximum amount of time off that was available to him. He would get 7-8 weeks of leave through the year. The problem was that there were 10 people in our shop and you are only allowed to have 10% on leave at any one time. When you had one guy using essentially 2 of those months for himself, that didn't leave much time for anyone else to take their leave. I explained that to him, but he didn't care.

No matter how big your work center is, when you horde your leave you force someone else to make sacrifices.

sandsjames
10-06-2014, 08:50 PM
The problem was that there were 10 people in our shop and you are only allowed to have 10% on leave at any one time. Only allowed to have 10% on leave? Must be a local policy?


No matter how big your work center is, when you horde your leave you force someone else to make sacrifices.Leave is leave, and the number of days gone does not change no matter how you choose to use it. If one chooses to be smart and optimize time off with weekends/holidays then that is their prerogative. As long as they adhere to the regs for leaving and returning to the local area then it is really nobody's business.

Nothing annoys me more than people bitching about others who take advantage of their benefits, within the regs, and have other pissed off about it. Don't be a hater just because you choose to use your leave when it most benefits your work center.

Monkey
10-06-2014, 10:14 PM
Only allowed to have 10% on leave? Must be a local policy?

Leave is leave, and the number of days gone does not change no matter how you choose to use it. If one chooses to be smart and optimize time off with weekends/holidays then that is their prerogative. As long as they adhere to the regs for leaving and returning to the local area then it is really nobody's business.

Nothing annoys me more than people bitching about others who take advantage of their benefits, within the regs, and have other pissed off about it. Don't be a hater just because you choose to use your leave when it most benefits your work center.

Apparently the 10% rule does not apply across the board. It is the standard business model in aircraft maintenance. It is based on not "impacting the mission". I'm sure some other career fields follow the same business rules.

Nothing annoys me more than someone who doesn't understand the importance of teamwork. A team works together and looks out for one another. I don't hate selfish people--I just don't understand them.

sandsjames
10-07-2014, 02:34 AM
Apparently the 10% rule does not apply across the board. It is the standard business model in aircraft maintenance. It is based on not "impacting the mission". I'm sure some other career fields follow the same business rules. Must be...will never understand how some people are ok will completely disregarding the AFIs when it benefits them.


Nothing annoys me more than someone who doesn't understand the importance of teamwork. A team works together and looks out for one another. I don't hate selfish people--I just don't understand them.Not sure how someone taking leave that is owed to them is selfish. You think there may be a reason that aircraft mx guys are always disgruntled?

Shadowless
10-07-2014, 02:39 AM
Apparently the 10% rule does not apply across the board. It is the standard business model in aircraft maintenance. It is based on not "impacting the mission". I'm sure some other career fields follow the same business rules.

Nothing annoys me more than someone who doesn't understand the importance of teamwork. A team works together and looks out for one another. I don't hate selfish people--I just don't understand them.

I don't understand how the guy is breaking any rules though? I do think the rules should be fair across the board though, in the same shop I don't think it's right that someone who works Mon-Fri can take leave for 5 days and get 9 days off out of it while shift workers are worked til the moment they go on leave and the moment they return from leave. Make the policy fair across the board and i have no issus.

Monkey
10-07-2014, 01:56 PM
Must be...will never understand how some people are ok will completely disregarding the AFIs when it benefits them.

Not sure how someone taking leave that is owed to them is selfish. You think there may be a reason that aircraft mx guys are always disgruntled?

This is really not worth discussing as you and I are fundamentally different in our view. You were never responsible for anybody other than yourself during your career, so you still think of yourself as an individual whose decisions only affect yourself. I have a different history that includes being responsible for the harmony of a team. I see decisions of the individual affecting everybody. Even if the decisions don't violate AFI, they can still have a negative effect on the health of the team. You see leave as an individual entitlement, while I see it as a collective entitlement. There is nothing that either of us can say that will change our views.

Aircraft mx guys are disgruntled because of poor leadership which propagates the myth that somehow their life is unfair.

Monkey
10-07-2014, 01:58 PM
I don't understand how the guy is breaking any rules though? I do think the rules should be fair across the board though, in the same shop I don't think it's right that someone who works Mon-Fri can take leave for 5 days and get 9 days off out of it while shift workers are worked til the moment they go on leave and the moment they return from leave. Make the policy fair across the board and i have no issus.

I never said he was breaking any rules. I only said that his actions were not beneficial to the team.

sandsjames
10-07-2014, 04:29 PM
This is really not worth discussing as you and I are fundamentally different in our view. Interesting point considering you go on discussing it with your paragraph below.


You were never responsible for anybody other than yourself during your career, so you still think of yourself as an individual whose decisions only affect yourself. I have a different history that includes being responsible for the harmony of a team. I see decisions of the individual affecting everybody. Even if the decisions don't violate AFI, they can still have a negative effect on the health of the team. You see leave as an individual entitlement, while I see it as a collective entitlement. There is nothing that either of us can say that will change our views.And that's unfortunate. It's a shame a whole career field has to suffer because one person thinks they know what's best for the team.


Aircraft mx guys are disgruntled because of poor leadership which propagates the myth that somehow their life is unfair.MX guys are disgruntled because they are treated different from everyone else in the AF because their leadership thinks they are more important than everyone else.

The issue I have with the leave thing is that it leads to the myth that one single person is irreplaceable and the job will suffer if they are not there. It's simply not true.

Modus
10-07-2014, 08:07 PM
I love the breakdown of MX lol, the truth hurts.

Measure Man
10-07-2014, 08:43 PM
The issue I have with the leave thing is that it leads to the myth that one single person is irreplaceable and the job will suffer if they are not there. It's simply not true.

Ive heard/used the 10% thing my whole career...although it was more of a "rule of thumb" rather than and actual hard and fast rule, in my experience. I don't think I've ever refused a leave based on it.

sandsjames
10-07-2014, 09:25 PM
Ive heard/used the 10% thing my whole career...although it was more of a "rule of thumb" rather than and actual hard and fast rule, in my experience. I don't think I've ever refused a leave based on it.

That is the prerogative of the supervisor. However, it's also the prerogative of the troop to take it up to the IG if necessary, as denying leave for any reason other than "mission essential" is illegal. And mission essential is hard for a supervisor to prove. You take that 10% stuff to the IG and they are going to laugh at you. All it takes is for one person who was denied leave to make a mistake that gets someone injured or killed, or causes major equipment damage, and that supervisor (or Commander) is going to have some tough questions that he/she is unable to answer.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-08-2014, 05:06 AM
This is really not worth discussing as you and I are fundamentally different in our view. You were never responsible for anybody other than yourself during your career, so you still think of yourself as an individual whose decisions only affect yourself.

I'll have you know that Sandsjames is one of the best hypothetical supervisors that the Air Force has ever known.

He can second guess a real boss better than no other, so show a little respect.

His experience complaining about PT is legendary. Back in the era of the ergo-bike, he complained that it wasn't accurate. When the Air Force abandoned the ergo-bike, he complained that the new PT test was too much like a real PT test. His thinking is light years ahead of other hypothetical supervisors.

Also, his reputation as a smoke pit lawyer is such that the Pentagon pressed to have him assigned to their smoke pit. However, Air Staff nixed the idea because he failed his PT test.

I have no doubt that SJ can out supervise you in any hypothetical management scenario.

sandsjames
10-08-2014, 11:24 AM
This is the last I'll say on it. If you aren't going to follow the rules of one AFI because you feel you know what's best, then you have no right to get on your troops when they don't follow the AFIs.

Stalwart
10-08-2014, 02:29 PM
There are a lot of ideas and philosophies floating around, good discussion overall.

My opinion, it is pretty clear that 99% of commands have to establish some sort of guidance about leave and readiness. But what works for a recruiting command doesn't work for a fighter squadron; hence unit leadership decides what works best for them and goes with it. I have never been anyplace that had a 10% rule, on a couple ships during the holidays the general rule was either 33% or 50% depending on if the ship was using 2 or 3 leave periods.

I will say, in my opinion leave is an individual entitlement (individually earned, taken as an individual ... and not transferable from one member to another.) If military had a leave bank live government civilians I would think a bit differently. However, individuals may or may not be able to take all of their accrued leave at one time because it would adversely impact: others ability to take a fair amount of leave, 2. readiness. Yeah, some folks may want to take a longer than normal amount of leave for one particular reason or another (family vacation, cruise, extended project to get done on the house), which if things are getting done is perfectly okay. But to not let Sgt X take leave because Sgt Y is going on leave and Sgt Y has already taken a large amount of leave this year and Sgt X has not is probably not correct (unless Sgt Y has an emergency.)

Basically, small unit/lower echelon leadership doing what they do to BE FAIR ... but being fair doesn't mean everyone is happy, but that everyone has the same opportunity to enjoy what they have earned.

Measure Man
10-08-2014, 02:51 PM
That is the prerogative of the supervisor. However, it's also the prerogative of the troop to take it up to the IG if necessary, as denying leave for any reason other than "mission essential" is illegal. And mission essential is hard for a supervisor to prove. You take that 10% stuff to the IG and they are going to laugh at you. All it takes is for one person who was denied leave to make a mistake that gets someone injured or killed, or causes major equipment damage, and that supervisor (or Commander) is going to have some tough questions that he/she is unable to answer.

IIRC, in Korea, everyone was allowed one and only one leave, to a max of 30 days. I don't know if anyone ever pressed the test button on that policy, but it was widely known across the peninsula.

Mata Leao
10-08-2014, 04:25 PM
IIRC, in Korea, everyone was allowed one and only one leave, to a max of 30 days. I don't know if anyone ever pressed the test button on that policy, but it was widely known across the peninsula.

I guess it depends. I've known several people who took a week here, a week there and another week later.

I myself took small amounts of leave amounting to several long weekends on my first tour to Osan.

Rusty Jones
10-08-2014, 04:26 PM
I really don't get the concept of "playing the system" with military leave. It's a real shitty system that purports to be give more days than what civilian employers give - despite the fact that days you would have had off anyway are still charged against you, and that it can only be charged in whole day increments (ALWAYS rounded UP), so it only makes sense that military members be "strategic" when planning their leave.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
10-08-2014, 04:53 PM
I really don't get the concept of "playing the system" with military leave. It's a real shitty system that purports to be give more days than what civilian employers give - despite the fact that days you would have had off anyway are still charged against you, and that it can only be charged in whole day increments (ALWAYS rounded UP), so it only makes sense that military members be "strategic" when planning their leave.

Agreed. I can't begin to count the number of weekends that I was forced to burn leave because I wanted Fri-Mon off to go out of town. Now as a DoD civilian, if I want to take a Fri-Mon vacation I am only forced to burn leave on Friday and Monday. For those of you still on active duty, I commend the fact that you are smart enough to use your leave wisely, or as some view it, smart enough to "game the system."

Stalwart
10-08-2014, 05:02 PM
"Gaming the system" may be well ... gaming the system ... but if you aren't breaking a rule ... or even bending it, merely figuring out a way to make it work for you so be it. If the rules are really jacked up, someone will see it and correct it. Until then ...

sandsjames
10-08-2014, 05:30 PM
"Gaming the system" may be well ... gaming the system ... but if you aren't breaking a rule ... or even bending it, merely figuring out a way to make it work for you so be it. If the rules are really jacked up, someone will see it and correct it. Until then ...

Exactly. Fix the system. Don't criticize people for legally following the letter of the law.

Rusty Jones
10-08-2014, 06:16 PM
The only way to fix the system is to let military members combine leave and liberty. If 30 days of leave a year is truly supposed to be more than what civilians get, then make that the case! In February, I will cross the 15 year threshold to earn 8 hours of leave per pay period, which comes out to 26 days of leave per year. Until then, I earn 6 which comes out to 19.5 - and you know what? Even right now, I still come out better than how I did in the military.

I also say get rid of charging leave in whole day increments, but that would be asking for too much at once.

SomeRandomGuy
10-08-2014, 06:30 PM
The only way to fix the system is to let military members combine leave and liberty. If 30 days of leave a year is truly supposed to be more than what civilians get, then make that the case! In February, I will cross the 15 year threshold to earn 8 hours of leave per pay period, which comes out to 26 days of leave per year. Until then, I earn 6 which comes out to 19.5 - and you know what? Even right now, I still come out better than how I did in the military.

I also say get rid of charging leave in whole day increments, but that would be asking for too much at once.

I get 10 hours of Paid Time Off (PTO) per month and I don't come out near as good as when I was in the military. The 10 hours per month is 120 hours which is 15 days off. If I get sick or have to run to an appointment I have to use that time. In the military you could make up any and every excuse to leave early and you never got charged for it. If you get sick those days are also free days off. The only downside to being in the military is you don't get "comp time" for the extra hours you work. With that being said, the military leave system is far more generous than anything you will see anywhere else even when you get charged for weekends.

Rusty Jones
10-08-2014, 07:07 PM
I get 10 hours of Paid Time Off (PTO) per month and I don't come out near as good as when I was in the military. The 10 hours per month is 120 hours which is 15 days off. If I get sick or have to run to an appointment I have to use that time.

You mean you don't get separate sick days? Glad that's not my case.


In the military you could make up any and every excuse to leave early and you never got charged for it.

You might want to put an asterisk by that; because it really all depends on whether or not you work for a bunch of dickheads. I HAVE been to places where I've had to take leave for that.


If you get sick those days are also free days off.

Yeah, and you still have to go to work sick, and then onto medical for an SIQ chit before you can go home - and by the time that happens, half your day is already gone.

The best I ever got was an SIQ chit at Portsmouth Naval Hospital the night before that prevented me from even DRIVING. I remember the next morning, I even called in and told them that I had an SIQ chit - that way, they can hold me responsible if I showed up to work without it after the chit expired. Nope. I STILL had to come into work and show them the chit. I was lucky I didn't get pulled over on the way in, because I was so fucked up that I've driven better after chugging a whole fifth of Maker's Mark.


The only downside to being in the military is you don't get "comp time" for the extra hours you work.

Or overtime.


With that being said, the military leave system is far more generous than anything you will see anywhere else even when you get charged for weekends.

Maybe with YOUR job. Not mine. Or any of the many other employers in my area that I'm aware of.

Measure Man
10-08-2014, 07:37 PM
The military gets a lot of time off compared to civilians, in my experience. When you count leave, down days, noncharged sick/quarters, travel days, etc.

The leave might be pretty close to what older civilians who have years with a company get...but not many 18-25 year old civilians gets anywhere close to 30 days paid leave. Most are lucky to have any at all, and if they do, usually starting at maybe 2 weeks. There are certainly exceptions.

LogDog
10-08-2014, 07:39 PM
IIRC, in Korea, everyone was allowed one and only one leave, to a max of 30 days. I don't know if anyone ever pressed the test button on that policy, but it was widely known across the peninsula.
I was in Korea from '91 - '92 and back then it was known as "Mid-tour" leave. Many people thought it was automatic leave given to everyone and some even tried convincing us if they didn't take their "Mid-tour" leave they could cut their tour short by 30 days.

Both ideas were false because leave was also dependent upon the workload of the unit. Leave policy in Korea was basically the same as leave policy as in CONUS. Manning, workload, mission, etc. were factors taken into consideration when granting leave. Most people I worked with in Korea didn't have problems taking leave in-country or back to the State.

Measure Man
10-08-2014, 07:41 PM
If I get sick or have to run to an appointment I have to use that time. In the military you could make up any and every excuse to leave early and you never got charged for it.

As a salaried employee, I do not get charged PTO for appointments and excuses. As long as I'm at work for 5 minutes, I'm credited with a whole day. I only have to use PTO to take the entire day off.


If you get sick those days are also free days off. The only downside to being in the military is you don't get "comp time" for the extra hours you work. With that being said, the military leave system is far more generous than anything you will see anywhere else even when you get charged for weekends.

But, I also do not get comped or paid for overtime.

Measure Man
10-08-2014, 07:46 PM
I was in Korea from '91 - '92 and back then it was known as "Mid-tour" leave. Many people thought it was automatic leave given to everyone and some even tried convincing us if they didn't take their "Mid-tour" leave they could cut their tour short by 30 days.

Both ideas were false because leave was also dependent upon the workload of the unit. Leave policy in Korea was basically the same as leave policy as in CONUS. Manning, workload, mission, etc. were factors taken into consideration when granting leave. Most people I worked with in Korea didn't have problems taking leave in-country or back to the State.

Yeah...mid-tour. I was there from 2001-2002. I think mid-tour leave had to be taken between your 4th and 8th month...commander could approve exceptions, of course. Our general thinking was that there is never a "good time" to take leave mission-wise in Korea, there is always something going on...exercise, ORI, UEI, etc. so you just go no matter what was going on.

Stalwart
10-08-2014, 07:59 PM
Or overtime.

Or weekend differential. Or holiday differential.

My wife accrues 8 hrs of leave and 4 hrs of sick leave per pay period (every 2x weeks).

She also has access to a leave bank of donated leave that people can donate to (came in handy when we adopted our daughter.)

As our daughter was having all the surgeries to correct her lip, palate and skull my wife also tapped the leave back for a few days of time; my office just told me to call in. (Military advantage)

If we wanted to pack up and fly to Vegas for a weekend, she can just up and go. Since I would be outside the designated liberty limits I would have to take leave. (Civilian advantage)

sandsjames
10-08-2014, 08:16 PM
The only way to fix the system is to let military members combine leave and liberty. If 30 days of leave a year is truly supposed to be more than what civilians get, then make that the case! In February, I will cross the 15 year threshold to earn 8 hours of leave per pay period, which comes out to 26 days of leave per year. Until then, I earn 6 which comes out to 19.5 - and you know what? Even right now, I still come out better than how I did in the military.

I also say get rid of charging leave in whole day increments, but that would be asking for too much at once.

Yep...I always hated taking more than 5 days leave at a time because I was wasting 2 day. That's why guys take it in the manner people are complaining about. If I have 30 days, I want 30 days. I have the option of taking it in conjunction with weekends, giving me 6 weeks...in conjunction with holidays, giving me closer to 7 weeks, or taking it all at once, giving me 4 weeks. Not much of a decision, really. Hell, in the civilian world if we were to give up that many days of our leave, that's one entire pay period.

Steve-OK
10-09-2014, 03:22 AM
Don't hate the player. Hate the game.

Mata Leao
10-09-2014, 01:44 PM
I hate when someone says "it has always been that way", but I can't think of anything differently to say here. The leave system has always been that way. None of these complaints are new really. It's similar to the argument dorm residents have as to why people in base housing don't get their (interior) homes inspected. Old arguments. Elect new congresspeeps to change existing leave laws. Complaining on a mesage board ain't never gotten anything done.

Stalwart
10-09-2014, 02:30 PM
Elect new congresspeeps to change existing leave laws. Complaining on a mesage board ain't never gotten anything done.

Congress does not legislate how the services implement leave and liberty policies. Congress establishes the compensation package that includes 30 days of paid leave per year; how a particular military department charges an individual for leave is up to the Secretary and varies from service to service (which can be frustrating in a joint command when one service has a more liberal policy on what can be considered enough absence from work to require charging a day of leave.) Not saying that a few concerned Members of Congress making inquiries wouldn't effect a change ... just that they have not legislated that.

efmbman
10-09-2014, 03:15 PM
Not saying that a few concerned Members of Congress making inquiries wouldn't effect a change ... just that they have not legislated that.

Indeed... it certainly worked out that way for those who felt oppressed regarding new regulations governing hairstyles.

Stalwart
10-09-2014, 03:36 PM
Indeed... it certainly worked out that way for those who felt oppressed regarding new regulations governing hairstyles.

Correct. Same thing happened to Gen Mundy (Commandant of the Marine Corps) circa 1993 when he unilaterally established a Marine Corps policy that the Marine Corps would no longer recruit married people nor allow first term enlisted Marines to get married. SecDef got blindsided at a press conference, a couple of Congressmen heard about it and made some inquiries and the policy was revoked before the enactment date.