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sandsjames
07-29-2014, 03:49 PM
http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/28/pf/parents-student-loans/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Other than the obvious sympathy for the loss of a family member (especially outliving a child) do you have any sympathy on the money side.

My thoughts...

First, he makes 75k and his wife also works. Many, many people with 3 kids do just fine on much, much lower income.

Second, he cosigned.

Why even have terms on loans anymore if they are expected to just be thrown out?

Stalwart
07-29-2014, 03:54 PM
http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/28/pf/parents-student-loans/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Other than the obvious sympathy for the loss of a family member (especially outliving a child) do you have any sympathy on the money side.

My thoughts...

First, he makes 75k and his wife also works. Many, many people with 3 kids do just fine on much, much lower income.

Second, he cosigned.

Why even have terms on loans anymore if they are expected to just be thrown out?

Sympathy, sure ... that is a terrible situation. But as you said ... he cosigned for the loans.

CJSmith
07-29-2014, 04:11 PM
Don't they usually pray about these type of things and let Jesus sort it out? Amirite?

WILDJOKER5
07-29-2014, 04:31 PM
What was the degree in? How did she not have a life insurance plan when she had 3 kids? Was the degree in drinking, she did die of liver failure after all.

MitchellJD1969
07-29-2014, 04:38 PM
Don't they usually pray about these type of things and let Jesus sort it out? Amirite?

Seriously..WTF? Just curious how would you resond if the guy wasnt religious?

sandsjames
07-29-2014, 04:55 PM
What was the degree in? How did she not have a life insurance plan when she had 3 kids? Was the degree in drinking, she did die of liver failure after all.

Life insurance is overated and overpriced. We need some sort of Affordable Life Insurance Act to take care of problems like this.

sandsjames
07-29-2014, 04:56 PM
Seriously..WTF? Just curious how would you resond if the guy wasnt religious?He wouldn't have responded at all. Some have nothing to add until it comes time to do some bashing.

Measure Man
07-29-2014, 04:57 PM
What was the degree in?

"Mason had co-signed on the $100,000 in private student loans that his daughter took out for nursing school"


How did she not have a life insurance plan when she had 3 kids?

Maybe she was uninsurable on account of liver disease?


Was the degree in drinking, she did die of liver failure after all.

More people die of cirrhosis NOT related to alcohol than related to alcohol.

WILDJOKER5
07-29-2014, 05:10 PM
"Mason had co-signed on the $100,000 in private student loans that his daughter took out for nursing school"

Thank you. I must have read over that part. I saw the amount but the degree didnt register.

CJSmith
07-29-2014, 05:27 PM
Seriously..WTF? Just curious how would you resond if the guy wasnt religious?


He wouldn't have responded at all. Some have nothing to add until it comes time to do some bashing.

It's a joke. Chill. I forgot this place was serious bizness.

garhkal
07-29-2014, 09:14 PM
What was the degree in? How did she not have a life insurance plan when she had 3 kids? Was the degree in drinking, she did die of liver failure after all.

That's what i was wondering myself? Surely she had some sort of life insurance (or the parents had it on her)? SO where has that cash gone?

As to this situation, i DO feel that private companies could do with showing some sort of sympathy in situations like this, even if is lowering (or suspending) the interest rate.

Measure Man
07-29-2014, 09:19 PM
That's what i was wondering myself? Surely she had some sort of life insurance (or the parents had it on her)? SO where has that cash gone?

Let's say she's had liver disease since she was 15. How many people have life insurance for a 15-year old?

Once she became an adult, she was unable to get life insurance because she had liver disease.


As to this situation, i DO feel that private companies could do with showing some sort of sympathy in situations like this, even if is lowering (or suspending) the interest rate.

I suppose it would be "nice"...assuming their books allow for this sort of thing. Heck it would be super-nice if they'd just eliminate this debt for them...but, on principle, they shouldn't have to. Now, having exceptionally high penalties or rate increases due to failure to pay would be pretty sleazy.

It is extremely unfortunate that this girl lost her life, but a loan company shouldn't have to bear the brunt of that...particularly that they likely gave her a lower interest rate based on the fact she had a cosigner.

The real lesson here...do not cosign for your kids unless you are prepared to take on the loan. Even if she didn't get sick and die, they risk destroying theier credit if their daughter was unable to make payments also.

retiredAFcivvy
07-29-2014, 10:33 PM
Life insurance is overated and overpriced. We need some sort of Affordable Life Insurance Act to take care of problems like this.
It's that concept that keeps many from purchasing life insurance.
Life insurance is a highly regulated industry. Not all insurance companies can do business in every state. Yes, the cost of life insurance does vary from company to company; but the major difference is the type of insurance, i.e whole life, endowment, term, etc. Also whether the company is a stock or participating (pays dividends). Bottom line is that a person has to see the necessity of life insurance or they probably won't buy.

CYBERFX1024
07-30-2014, 03:02 AM
Life insurance is overated and overpriced. We need some sort of Affordable Life Insurance Act to take care of problems like this.

How is Life Insurance overrated? You can buy a term life insurance policy for literally pennies on the dollar a month. I know because I have bought some insurance on top of the one I get from work, so right now I have over half a million insurance policy on myself. Not to mention the money from the VA.

CYBERFX1024
07-30-2014, 03:12 AM
I have seen this story on a number of different sites and I have yet to hear ANYTHING about a liver disease or liver cancer. So why bring that up if that isn't part of what's going on?

Another thing I want to stress is that she took over $100k out in loans for a dang nursing degree. How did she think she was going to pay that much money back? Also where in the hell was she going to school at, Harvard? Even at the University of Phoenix a degree would be $30k, this story leaves so much more to ask. I feel bad for the family I do, but he cosigned on the loans.

More than likely what happened is that she got some private loans so that she can get some money ON TOP of paying for her tuition. This is widely done when people use private student loans, and one that Federal Loans don't allow you to do.

Measure Man
07-30-2014, 04:18 AM
I have seen this story on a number of different sites and I have yet to hear ANYTHING about a liver disease or liver cancer. So why bring that up if that isn't part of what's going on?

She died of liver failure...what do you call that?


Another thing I want to stress is that she took over $100k out in loans for a dang nursing degree. How did she think she was going to pay that much money back? Also where in the hell was she going to school at, Harvard? Even at the University of Phoenix a degree would be $30k, this story leaves so much more to ask. I feel bad for the family I do, but he cosigned on the loans. More than likely what happened is that she got some private loans so that she can get some money ON TOP of paying for her tuition. This is widely done when people use private student loans, and one that Federal Loans don't allow you to do.


I'm not going to say it was wise...but some people use school loans to not only pay books, tuition, fees, but also living expenses...one can get to 100K pretty easy if you don't keep it in check.

CYBERFX1024
07-30-2014, 04:23 AM
She died of liver failure...what do you call that?
I'm not going to say it was wise...but some people use school loans to not only pay books, tuition, fees, but also living expenses...one can get to 100K pretty easy if you don't keep it in check.

She died of liver failure yes but there is no other information that is provided in the article about that. It could have happened all of a sudden or yes it could have been a long term thing.

I understand that she probably was using the loans for living expenses as well. But that still leads into how did she think she was going to pay this money back?

Measure Man
07-30-2014, 04:32 AM
She died of liver failure yes but there is no other information that is provided in the article about that. It could have happened all of a sudden or yes it could have been a long term thing.

Well, it did say "died suddenly" also...so i don't know what you call that...the rest of liver stuff, or that she was an alcoholic, is purely speculation...I don't know, I'd guess it would be highly unusual for someone that young to die from alcohol-related liver failure...to my knowledge that usually takes 20-30 years of hard drinking. I was only illustrating one possible reason she might not have had life insurance....she could have been uninsurable. Maybe not, maybe she just never got around to getting it.


I understand that she probably was using the loans for living expenses as well. But that still leads into how did she think she was going to pay this money back?

well, the three kids certainly throws a wrench into things...but all other things considered, again, not saying it is the best course of a action, but a kid grads at 22, gets solid employment...maybe stays home with parents a few more years....100K is manageable at that young age with no responsibilities.

Maybe she never planned to pay it all back...she just planned to live with the payments...maybe though she was in a dead-end job with no education, so she took the chance, get a nursing job and double her income to 6K/month even if 1K of that would go towards never-ending debt payment, she's still ahead of the game with upward mobility.

All speculation at this point...but, I don't think 100K in student loans is all that uncommon. I know at least 2 people carrying that kind of student loan debt...one is a lawyer, probably made good investment....the other got it going for his Masters in Art/Photography school, living in SF. Yikes...but his plan is to work for the fed govt. for 10 years and get it forgiven. Apparently, that's a thing you can do on federal school loans.

we could be asking where the Father of the kids is, also, and why he isn't taking care of the 3 kids? But, since there is no information, it would just be speculation. She died at 27 and had kids of 9, 7 and 4...so pregnant at 18, two kids by 20...probably slugging away as a single mom with 2 kids and not making any headway...so decides to take the plunge and go to school. Probably better ways to do it...but, probably better than NOT going to school

CYBERFX1024
07-30-2014, 04:51 AM
Well, it did say "died suddenly" also...so i don't know what you call that...the rest of liver stuff, or that she was an alcoholic, is purely speculation...I don't know, I'd guess it would be highly unusual for someone that young to die from alcohol-related liver failure...to my knowledge that usually takes 20-30 years of hard drinking. I was only illustrating one possible reason she might not have had life insurance....she could have been uninsurable. Maybe not, maybe she just never got around to getting it.
well, the three kids certainly throws a wrench into things...but all other things considered, again, not saying it is the best course of a action, but a kid grads at 22, gets solid employment...maybe stays home with parents a few more years....100K is manageable at that young age with no responsibilities.
Maybe she never planned to pay it all back...she just planned to live with the payments...maybe though she was in a dead-end job with no education, so she took the chance, get a nursing job and double her income to 6K/month even if 1K of that would go towards never-ending debt payment, she's still ahead of the game with upward mobility.
All speculation at this point...but, I don't think 100K in student loans is all that uncommon. I know at least 2 people carrying that kind of student loan debt...one is a lawyer, probably made good investment....the other got it going for his Masters in Art/Photography school, living in SF. Yikes...but his plan is to work for the fed govt. for 10 years and get it forgiven. Apparently, that's a thing you can do on federal school loans.

I understand that yes it does happen and it is manageable. Also, a number of hospitals will pay off a student loan after 10 years as well. But my sticking point is that she had NO BACKUP PLAN.

Measure Man
07-30-2014, 04:57 AM
But my sticking point is that she had NO BACKUP PLAN.

No disagreement there.

Interesting about the hospitals...unfortunately, her parents do not have that option.

garhkal
07-30-2014, 06:42 AM
Let's say she's had liver disease since she was 15. How many people have life insurance for a 15-year old?

Once she became an adult, she was unable to get life insurance because she had liver disease.


My father had life insurance for both me and my brother by the time we were 5. Though i don't know if he let it laps prior to us becoming 18. I know many other parents who have it on their kids too. BUT i do agree, if she didn't have it by her parents, her having the liver disease might have precluded her from getting covered. Which i personally find BS.



I suppose it would be "nice"...assuming their books allow for this sort of thing. Heck it would be super-nice if they'd just eliminate this debt for them...but, on principle, they shouldn't have to. Now, having exceptionally high penalties or rate increases due to failure to pay would be pretty sleazy.

It is extremely unfortunate that this girl lost her life, but a loan company shouldn't have to bear the brunt of that...particularly that they likely gave her a lower interest rate based on the fact she had a cosigner.

The real lesson here...do not cosign for your kids unless you are prepared to take on the loan. Even if she didn't get sick and die, they risk destroying theier credit if their daughter was unable to make payments also.

True. It is still their problem but like i said. They would be showing a little class imo if they at least cut down the interest rate.


How is Life Insurance overrated? You can buy a term life insurance policy for literally pennies on the dollar a month. I know because I have bought some insurance on top of the one I get from work, so right now I have over half a million insurance policy on myself. Not to mention the money from the VA.

May i ask why so much? 500k is quite a lot. 200k is imo more than adequate to pay off any debts you have and pay for burial.

LogDog
07-30-2014, 06:48 AM
Well, it did say "died suddenly" also...so i don't know what you call that...the rest of liver stuff, or that she was an alcoholic, is purely speculation...I don't know, I'd guess it would be highly unusual for someone that young to die from alcohol-related liver failure...to my knowledge that usually takes 20-30 years of hard drinking. I was only illustrating one possible reason she might not have had life insurance....she could have been uninsurable. Maybe not, maybe she just never got around to getting it.
There are a number of causes of liver failure other than alcoholism. Some other causes include Hepatitis B, Hepatitis C, Cirrhosis, malnutrition, and Hemochromatosis (inherited disorder.



well, the three kids certainly throws a wrench into things...but all other things considered, again, not saying it is the best course of a action, but a kid grads at 22, gets solid employment...maybe stays home with parents a few more years....100K is manageable at that young age with no responsibilities.

Maybe she never planned to pay it all back...she just planned to live with the payments...maybe though she was in a dead-end job with no education, so she took the chance, get a nursing job and double her income to 6K/month even if 1K of that would go towards never-ending debt payment, she's still ahead of the game with upward mobility.
Again, the article doesn't mention anything about her job situation prior to her death nor does it mention anything about her having or not having insurance. At age 27, three children and no mention of her martial situation we're left wondering why she was going to nursing school at age 27. It seems unusual for someone that old to be in nursing school but I've known people who went to college in their 30s and 40s.


All speculation at this point...but, I don't think 100K in student loans is all that uncommon. I know at least 2 people carrying that kind of student loan debt...one is a lawyer, probably made good investment....the other got it going for his Masters in Art/Photography school, living in SF. Yikes...but his plan is to work for the fed govt. for 10 years and get it forgiven. Apparently, that's a thing you can do on federal school loans.

we could be asking where the Father of the kids is, also, and why he isn't taking care of the 3 kids? But, since there is no information, it would just be speculation. She died at 27 and had kids of 9, 7 and 4...so pregnant at 18, two kids by 20...probably slugging away as a single mom with 2 kids and not making any headway...so decides to take the plunge and go to school. Probably better ways to do it...but, probably better than NOT going to school
Yes, that is speculation but it probably is close to the truth. The thing I'd like to see is education loans be taken out of the private sector and run by the government who could charge a lower interest rate and/or offer alternate methods for paying back the loan. For example, a nurse or doctor could help pay-off their loans by working in poor areas lacking healthcare. Of course, those not graduating would, like their graduating counterparts, still have to pay-off their their loans.

sandsjames
07-30-2014, 11:22 AM
How is Life Insurance overrated? You can buy a term life insurance policy for literally pennies on the dollar a month. I know because I have bought some insurance on top of the one I get from work, so right now I have over half a million insurance policy on myself. Not to mention the money from the VA.That's great!!!! Good on ya'!

It's just another way we've been convinced to give away money that we will never see.

sandsjames
07-30-2014, 11:24 AM
May i ask why so much? 500k is quite a lot. 200k is imo more than adequate to pay off any debts you have and pay for burial.Why 200k? 50k, or 20k is, IMO, more than adequate to pay off any debts and pay for burial.

CYBERFX1024
07-30-2014, 05:16 PM
May i ask why so much? 500k is quite a lot. 200k is imo more than adequate to pay off any debts you have and pay for burial.

Because I am the sole bread earner right now and I want to know that everything is taken care of for at least a few years. This will allow some time for the grieving process.

CYBERFX1024
07-30-2014, 05:17 PM
May i ask why so much? 500k is quite a lot. 200k is imo more than adequate to pay off any debts you have and pay for burial.

Because I am the sole bread earner right now and I want to know that everything is taken care of for at least a few years. This will allow some time for the grieving process. My family has no debts right now so I just want to make sure that they are taken care of.

Measure Man
07-30-2014, 05:22 PM
My father had life insurance for both me and my brother by the time we were 5. Though i don't know if he let it laps prior to us becoming 18. I know many other parents who have it on their kids too. BUT i do agree, if she didn't have it by her parents, her having the liver disease might have precluded her from getting covered. Which i personally find BS.

Yeah...probably had what 5K or 10K? Enough to bury you? Not sure that would've helped in this situation.

Are you saying at 5, your parents had over 100K insurance on you? If so, I don't think a lot of people do that...

What do you mean it is BS that she may have been precluded from getting covered? Do you think the insurance company should be forced to cover someone with a terminal illness or life-threatening illness?


True. It is still their problem but like i said. They would be showing a little class imo if they at least cut down the interest rate.

Yes, this I agree with.

Measure Man
07-30-2014, 05:28 PM
Why 200k? 50k, or 20k is, IMO, more than adequate to pay off any debts and pay for burial.

You don't have children...and maybe your wife would not need to replace your income to maintain a lifestyle...

I have around 200K...plus SBP on my retirement. If I were to die now, my wife would still probably have to sell the house...which she would want to do anyway...but at least with that amount she would not be rushed into anything, could continue making the payments until it sold properly, could bury me, pay off debts, etc. without too drastic life-altering.

Not to mention we have 2 kids in college...

Everyone's situation is different...20K doesn't go very far if you're family needs some of your lost income.

sandsjames
07-30-2014, 05:34 PM
You don't have children...and maybe your wife would not need to replace your income to maintain a lifestyle... I have a step-son who's out and on his own. His life insurance was making sure he was properly raised and able to support himself. Now he's got a great job making good money and travelling the world. No college, so no debt there. Wouldn't be our debt anyway.


I have around 200K...plus SBP on my retirement. If I were to die now, my wife would still probably have to sell the house...which she would want to do anyway...but at least with that amount she would not be rushed into anything, could continue making the payments until it sold properly, could bury me, pay off debts, etc. without too drastic life-altering. Different strokes...that's fine. I'm playing the odds game. My wife is older than me so if we die from old age she will probably go first. If it's not from old age then we will most likely die in an accident together so no worries there either.



Everyone's situation is different...20K doesn't go very far if you're family needs some of your lost income.Very true. Everyones needs are different. No life insurance here. Didn't take the VSGLI. Didn't purchase anything else. Hometown has free burial.

edit: Upon retirement from Active Duty, we had the briefings about all that stuff. If I'd taken everything offered I'd get almost no retirement pay. Between the life insurance and the whatchamacallit that the wife would get as far as my retirement checks, it seems kinda pointless. We'll enjoy ourselves with that money right now while we can still enjoy it.

Measure Man
07-30-2014, 05:45 PM
I have a step-son who's out and on his own. His life insurance was making sure he was properly raised and able to support himself. Now he's got a great job making good money and travelling the world. No college, so no debt there. Wouldn't be our debt anyway.

Yep...you are over that hump. Our college-kids are still depending on us.


Different strokes...that's fine. I'm playing the odds game. My wife is older than me so if we die from old age she will probably go first. If it's not from old age then we will most likely die in an accident together so no worries there either.

Yes..also fine. In your situation that probably makes sense...you don't have a lot of responsibilities.

My wife is a few years older than me...but she lives a healthier lifestyle.


Very true. Everyones needs are different. No life insurance here. Didn't take the VSGLI. Didn't purchase anything else. Hometown has free burial.

I didnt take VGLI...but purchased a 20 year term from USAA. I also have another term policy that goes up every 5 years from AFBA. I'm sure that second one will eventually be too expensive, so it will go away, right now it's still pretty cheap. The 20 year term will take me to about age 68 or so...by that time, I should have enough in retirement savings/SBP to take care of my wife...and no one else really depending on me. So, the insurance is to cover until then. Yes, odds are that I will live to 68 and have wasted all those premiums...but the few bucks in cost for the term policy is worth it in peace of mind alone.

sandsjames
07-30-2014, 05:48 PM
Yep...you are over that hump. Our college-kids are still depending on us. That's your choice. That's where we differ.




Yes..also fine. In your situation that probably makes sense...you don't have a lot of responsibilities. No more or less than any other 40 year old without minor children.






I didnt take VGLI...but purchased a 20 year term from USAA. I also have another term policy that goes up every 5 years from AFBA. I'm sure that second one will eventually be too expensive, so it will go away, right now it's still pretty cheap. The 20 year term will take me to about age 68 or so...by that time, I should have enough in retirement savings/SBP to take care of my wife...and no one else really depending on me. So, the insurance is to cover until then. Yes, odds are that I will live to 68 and have wasted all those premiums...but the few bucks in cost for the term policy is worth it in peace of mind alone.

Measure Man
07-30-2014, 06:05 PM
No more or less than any other 40 year old without minor children.

...and without debt.

sandsjames
07-30-2014, 06:06 PM
...and without debt.

Without debt? Other than my house, my two vehicles, my credit card and my loan you are absolutely correct.

Measure Man
07-30-2014, 06:07 PM
Without debt? Other than my house, my two vehicles, my credit card and my loan you are absolutely correct.

My bad...you always seem to be preaching "live within your means" and "pay cash"..that I just assumed you lived that way...except maybe a mortgage.

sandsjames
07-30-2014, 06:10 PM
My bad...you always seem to be preaching "live within your means" and "pay cash"..that I just assumed you lived that way...except maybe a mortgage.

No no no...I've never preached "pay cash". I've got no problem spending money before I have it. It's the same as my theory on leave in the military. Don't keep much on the books...or go in the hole, because that way I have nothing to lose if I die tomorrow.

I don't see living within ones means as not having credit. Living within ones means, to me, means don't have more debt than you can afford to pay.

garhkal
07-30-2014, 06:10 PM
Yeah...probably had what 5K or 10K? Enough to bury you? Not sure that would've helped in this situation.

Are you saying at 5, your parents had over 100K insurance on you? If so, I don't think a lot of people do that...

IIRC it was 20k each. Not much i agree, but still, something.


What do you mean it is BS that she may have been precluded from getting covered? Do you think the insurance company should be forced to cover someone with a terminal illness or life-threatening illness?

Its like with health care insurance. Preconditions preclude you from getting covered (or used to), so you would be worse off financially. Now i do agree that companies could charge MORE for having those preconditions, but not outright deny you. Just like i feel those who do extreme sports etc, should also pay higher premiums.


Everyone's situation is different...20K doesn't go very far if you're family needs some of your lost income.

Agreed. I know one guy who cause of his 2 houses he owns, 5 kids (and currently 2 grand kids) he has, along with college debt for 2 of those kids he has, increased his Life policy once he retired to 1 mil, while a co-worker who retired out a year before I did, has no kids, and almost paid off his house, only kept the 100k VGLI he had when he converted his SGLI over.

Measure Man
07-30-2014, 06:33 PM
No no no...I've never preached "pay cash". I've got no problem spending money before I have it. It's the same as my theory on leave in the military. Don't keep much on the books...or go in the hole, because that way I have nothing to lose if I die tomorrow.

I don't see living within ones means as not having credit. Living within ones means, to me, means don't have more debt than you can afford to pay.

Okay...I once had a friend who would say his financial goal was to die $1 mil in debt...lol.

We also carry some manageable debt...would like it to be lower sure, but my philosophy is somewhat closer to yours...there are certain things "worth" going into debt for IMO.

i.e...taking the grandkids to Disneyland...they are only going to be 9 and 7, once (great age for Disney)...if you save for that trip until they are 15 and 13, you've missed it.

We went into some debt while stationed in Germany for traveling...made a RyanAir trip nearly every month...yes, I came back with a credit card bill, but what an experience...worth triple what I paid.

Most of our debt is from traveling...well, not counting mortgage and truck. My mortgage is the biggest debt we have, but that is definitely good debt.

Measure Man
07-30-2014, 06:38 PM
IIRC it was 20k each. Not much i agree, but still, something.

My parents had a policy on me when I was a kid...plus it had some cash value to it...when I turned 18 or 21, can't remember which...they could cash it in for $1,000...they let me keep that money...kind of my reward for not dying.


Its like with health care insurance. Preconditions preclude you from getting covered (or used to), so you would be worse off financially.

Yes, I get the concept...am just surprised to hear it from you.


Now i do agree that companies could charge MORE for having those preconditions, but not outright deny you. Just like i feel those who do extreme sports etc, should also pay higher premiums.

I can't imagine what a fair premium would be for someone with terminal cancer applying for life insurance...


Agreed. I know one guy who cause of his 2 houses he owns, 5 kids (and currently 2 grand kids) he has, along with college debt for 2 of those kids he has, increased his Life policy once he retired to 1 mil, while a co-worker who retired out a year before I did, has no kids, and almost paid off his house, only kept the 100k VGLI he had when he converted his SGLI over.

Yep...good illustration of everyone's situation being different. The worst financial advisors say "everyone should do this" or "everyone should not do this"...there are very few things that work or do not work for everyone.

sandsjames
07-30-2014, 06:45 PM
Okay...I once had a friend who would say his financial goal was to die $1 mil in debt...lol.

We also carry some manageable debt...would like it to be lower sure, but my philosophy is somewhat closer to yours...there are certain things "worth" going into debt for IMO.

i.e...taking the grandkids to Disneyland...they are only going to be 9 and 7, once (great age for Disney)...if you save for that trip until they are 15 and 13, you've missed it.

We went into some debt while stationed in Germany for traveling...made a RyanAir trip nearly every month...yes, I came back with a credit card bill, but what an experience...worth triple what I paid.

Most of our debt is from traveling...well, not counting mortgage and truck. My mortgage is the biggest debt we have, but that is definitely good debt.

Yeah, I definitely don't want to be $1M in debt. I'd love to be debt free and if we worked at it I'm sure we could get there in a relatively short period of time.

As far as living outside ones means, what I mean by that is when it comes to buying to "nice to haves" when you can't afford to feed the family, buy school clothes, etc.

sandsjames
07-30-2014, 06:46 PM
I can't imagine what a fair premium would be for someone with terminal cancer applying for life insurance...
Same could be related to the ACA...

Measure Man
07-30-2014, 07:26 PM
Same could be related to the ACA...

Yes, I agree.

You can't just force insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions at the same premiums for others. Well, they can, I suppose, but it wouldn't work...because everyone could just NOT buy insurance until they got sick, then expect to be able to purchase insurance that would pay out more than they pay in.

So, in the ACA...the "trade-off" with the insurance companies, in order to force them to cover pre-existing conditions...they make it mandatory for everyone to purchase insurance. This means the insurnance companies get a lot of young, healthy premium-payers that they might not otherwise get...to offset the costs of covering those who already have conditions.

If, as gark is suggesting...we just made them provide coverage, even if the premiums were higher...I would suspect, someone trying to get health or life insurance with liver disease, cancer of something serious would have ridiculously high premiums that they couldn't afford anyway. i.e. if you buy a $500K life insurance policy, but only have 6 months to live...your premiums are going to be $100K per month.

sandsjames
07-30-2014, 07:34 PM
Yes, I agree.

You can't just force insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions at the same premiums for others. Well, they can, I suppose, but it wouldn't work...because everyone could just NOT buy insurance until they got sick, then expect to be able to purchase insurance that would pay out more than they pay in.

So, in the ACA...the "trade-off" with the insurance companies, in order to force them to cover pre-existing conditions...they make it mandatory for everyone to purchase insurance. This means the insurnance companies get a lot of young, healthy premium-payers that they might not otherwise get...to offset the costs of covering those who already have conditions.

If, as gark is suggesting...we just made them provide coverage, even if the premiums were higher...I would suspect, someone trying to get health or life insurance with liver disease, cancer of something serious would have ridiculously high premiums that they couldn't afford anyway. i.e. if you buy a $500K life insurance policy, but only have 6 months to live...your premiums are going to be $100K per month.

To me it's all no different than a casino. Is it going to pay off for a few people? Yep. But ultimately the house always wins. The only way to ensure you aren't losing the money is to not drop it in the machine.

Measure Man
07-30-2014, 07:46 PM
To me it's all no different than a casino. Is it going to pay off for a few people? Yep. But ultimately the house always wins. The only way to ensure you aren't losing the money is to not drop it in the machine.

Yes...there is some truth to that. Insurance is basically you betting the insurance company something bad is going to happen to you, and they are betting it isn't.

The only way you "win" in Life Insurance is to die.

Another way to look at it, is you are just sharing risk with a bunch of other people. If you get 100 people together...odds are 5 of you will have a car accident this year, we just don't know which 5. So, while you might be willing to gamble that you aren't in the 5%...someone also might want to "hedge" so that in case they are, it won't ruin them. So, you all decided to chip in 500 dollars each to cover the catastrophe of whoever those 5 are.

The insurance company does this for you, they just take a cut off the top for their services.

sandsjames
07-30-2014, 08:07 PM
The insurance company does this for you, they just take a cut off the top for their services.Right...and they do this even though I know that I'm not putting my self in risky situations while having no idea if the others are or not.

I've been paying into car insurance for almost 25 years now, probably at an average of $100 a month. That's $30,000. I've never once had a claim, for anything. Nor have I had any tickets. And if I do, what's going to happen? My rates will go up. Of course I do have the option of not driving, hence not having to pay it...but I don't like that we've become so conditioned to the idea of insurance that we believe it's a necessity.

garhkal
07-30-2014, 10:26 PM
Yes, I get the concept...am just surprised to hear it from you.

Glad i shocked you. Though most of my POV is very right wing leaning there are SOME things (like no denying people for pre-existing conditions) that i agree with the left on.


Right...and they do this even though I know that I'm not putting my self in risky situations while having no idea if the others are or not.

I've been paying into car insurance for almost 25 years now, probably at an average of $100 a month. That's $30,000. I've never once had a claim, for anything. Nor have I had any tickets. And if I do, what's going to happen? My rates will go up. Of course I do have the option of not driving, hence not having to pay it...but I don't like that we've become so conditioned to the idea of insurance that we believe it's a necessity.

Its not we have been conditions to believe its needed, its that the govt has mandated its needed. Personally i would rather NOT be required to have it, so i can save that money up myself. But a lot of people don't seem to be good at saving.

Stalwart
07-31-2014, 01:42 AM
The only way you "win" in Life Insurance is to die.

And we will all win at that game ... yay.

I have life insurance to make sure that if I die tomorrow (don't anyone get any ideas) my wife will not have to use our investments / savings to do things like pay off the house or put me in the ground. And if at that point she wants to take an extended time off work, she can do so ... to leave my wife and kiddo secure . I am worth a lot more dead than alive, but I do have to face it that I will die; and I carry insurance on my wife for the same reason. We also carry a modest policy on our daughter, something I hope to never use ... but hope is not a good course of action.

Why this girl/family thought it was a good idea to have her incurring such debt (for which the father was taking back-up responsibility) and not having a contingency "just in case" (maybe not death, but what if she got into a car accident and could not complete school?) was probably a bit short sighted. As someone said earlier, I think the company could (and from the sounds of it ... DID) offer some alternative repayment options ... but if every company took one in the shorts for poor decisions of clients, companies would go out of business like clockwork.

sandsjames
07-31-2014, 02:14 AM
Its not we have been conditions to believe its needed, its that the govt has mandated its needed. Personally i would rather NOT be required to have it, so i can save that money up myself. But a lot of people don't seem to be good at saving.It's a little of both when it comes to insurance. Life insurance is conditioning. Car insurance is the law...and I agree, I'd much rather have the money in my pocket and, to be honest, don't care whether other people have any or not.

sandsjames
07-31-2014, 02:15 AM
And we will all win at that game ... yay.

Unless you have nobody to leave it to.

Stalwart
07-31-2014, 02:45 AM
Unless you have nobody to leave it to.

True ... :(

garhkal
07-31-2014, 06:59 AM
It's a little of both when it comes to insurance. Life insurance is conditioning. Car insurance is the law...and I agree, I'd much rather have the money in my pocket and, to be honest, don't care whether other people have any or not.

I do find it strange we now require people to have health insurance, car (or other vehicle) insurance, RV insurance, house insurance, but do NOT require life insurance or renters insurance.
Why the split?
I also notice in most traffic stops i have had in the past 8 years, i have NEVER been asked for proof of insurance, compared to when i was stopped back in the 90s.. Anyone know why that was stopped?


Unless you have nobody to leave it to.

Then do what a few friends i know have.. Leave it to their favorite charity!