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View Full Version : Should the Fed govt pay for sex change ops for prisoners?



garhkal
07-18-2014, 07:50 PM
Saw this on GOPUSA, but see it elsewhere as well.

Since our VA is in hot water for leaving thousands of vets to die, cutting costs etc, should our govt be paying for Prisoners, traitors etc to get sex change ops on the tax payers dime?

http://www.freep.com/VideoNetwork/2623912587001/Should-Bradley-Manning-s-sex-change-be-taxpayer-funded-

http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_coverage/2013/08/con_s_sex_change_lawsuit_blazes_a_trail_for_bradle y_manning

http://www.westernjournalism.com/bradley-manning-seeks-gender-change-taxpayers-dime/

sandsjames
07-18-2014, 08:31 PM
Saw this on GOPUSA, but see it elsewhere as well.

Since our VA is in hot water for leaving thousands of vets to die, cutting costs etc, should our govt be paying for Prisoners, traitors etc to get sex change ops on the tax payers dime?

http://www.freep.com/VideoNetwork/2623912587001/Should-Bradley-Manning-s-sex-change-be-taxpayer-funded-

http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_coverage/2013/08/con_s_sex_change_lawsuit_blazes_a_trail_for_bradle y_manning

http://www.westernjournalism.com/bradley-manning-seeks-gender-change-taxpayers-dime/

No........

hustonj
07-18-2014, 08:37 PM
There are very few categories of things that you could put after "Should the Fed govt pay for" and get me to say yes.

Optional surgeries that have no bearing on a Federal prisoner's physical well being aren't going to qualify.

Measure Man
07-18-2014, 09:28 PM
I vote Nay

Chris_1991-2011
07-19-2014, 12:32 AM
I say NO. Opinions regarding having a sex change aside, it's elective....a choice....just like the choice(s) that put them in prison. If they allow it, it'll open a can of worms. Who knows, some people may not be able to afford it on their own and make the decision to spend a few years behind bars just to get the operation(s) for free. (A bit drastic, but so is having a sex change.)

garhkal
07-19-2014, 05:42 AM
I say NO. Opinions regarding having a sex change aside, it's elective....a choice....just like the choice(s) that put them in prison. If they allow it, it'll open a can of worms. Who knows, some people may not be able to afford it on their own and make the decision to spend a few years behind bars just to get the operation(s) for free. (A bit drastic, but so is having a sex change.)

Exactly. I heard of a story when i was in Fresno going through HS, of someone who couldn't afford to get an op to replace a bad hip. So went out and did a crime he knew would get him sent to jail, so it would be taken care of on the tax payer's dime. Stuff like that (If true) is imo BS>

Stalwart
07-19-2014, 05:45 AM
I don't think it should be paid for by taxpayers and since hormone therapy and gender reassignment are not covered through military medicine it would seem his current medical coverage does not cover it. The VA does cover hormone therapy but he is still active duty.

I have read and understand that there are a lot of mental health considerations related to gender identity issues and on some level -- even though he is in prison -- we have an obligation to address the mental health issues, which can be done via mental health professionals at Ft. Leavenworth; especially since he is going to (in about 34 years) be released one day.

I am sure if there was an option to let him pay for it instead of the government there are enough people who admire him or what he did that he could raise the funds to privately pay for surgery, I don't know if that is allowed under the rules of his incarceration or not.

Capt Alfredo
07-19-2014, 07:18 AM
Sure, because it probably gives military doctors a chance to perfect their skills when dealing with traumatic injury to "regular" service members.

garhkal
03-06-2015, 09:11 PM
Bringing this back up specifically for Bradley (don't call him Chelsea) Manning. The traitor who leaked all that data to Wikileaks and is now in Leavenworth prison. Apparently he (she) has won a court decision to make it so the military can NO longer refer to manning on any official document, as a He. Only either by gender netural PFC manning, OR as She...
What the heck is going on with our military?

http://nigerianewsstand.com/chelsea-manning-can-no-longer-be-called-he-by-the-military-court-rules/

http://time.com/3734882/chelsea-manning-he-military/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2982130/Chelsea-Manning-female-gender-neutral-terms-court.html

First, he(It) wins a case saying the military HAS to provide medical treatment to help him convert to a she, NOW we can't refer to him as a HE. Is this batshit crazy to anyone else??

sandsjames
03-06-2015, 09:14 PM
Bringing this back up specifically for Bradley (don't call him Chelsea) Manning. The traitor who leaked all that data to Wikileaks and is now in Leavenworth prison. Apparently he (she) has won a court decision to make it so the military can NO longer refer to manning on any official document, as a He. Only either by gender netural PFC manning, OR as She...
What the heck is going on with our military?

http://nigerianewsstand.com/chelsea-manning-can-no-longer-be-called-he-by-the-military-court-rules/

http://time.com/3734882/chelsea-manning-he-military/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2982130/Chelsea-Manning-female-gender-neutral-terms-court.html

First, he(It) wins a case saying the military HAS to provide medical treatment to help him convert to a she, NOW we can't refer to him as a HE. Is this batshit crazy to anyone else??

And I want to be referred to only as Monsignor.

Rainmaker
03-06-2015, 09:27 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrO3TfJc9Qw

While we debate the legality of what we should call our trans-testicle traitors, Denmark is busy running Public Service announcements encouraging men to go on vacation with Hot Blondes in Lingerie and knock them up for the good of the country. Rainmaker's seriously thinking about emigrating to Denmark...

Stalwart
03-07-2015, 12:55 AM
Bringing this back up specifically for Bradley (don't call him Chelsea) Manning. The traitor who leaked all that data to Wikileaks and is now in Leavenworth prison. Apparently he (she) has won a court decision to make it so the military can NO longer refer to manning on any official document, as a He. Only either by gender netural PFC manning, OR as She...
What the heck is going on with our military?

http://nigerianewsstand.com/chelsea-manning-can-no-longer-be-called-he-by-the-military-court-rules/

http://time.com/3734882/chelsea-manning-he-military/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2982130/Chelsea-Manning-female-gender-neutral-terms-court.html

First, he(It) wins a case saying the military HAS to provide medical treatment to help him convert to a she, NOW we can't refer to him as a HE. Is this batshit crazy to anyone else??

How is this something wrong with the military? While the Army Court of Criminal Appeals is part of the Army, their job is to interpret the law -- not what is best for the Army. The court made the ruling, and the military is subject to the laws of our nation; otherwise we have lost more than we have gained.

Legally her name is Chelsea, she changed it last year I think ... no different than if I changed my name to George; that would be my name; should the military be barred from recognizing my name change to George?

I am no fan of PFC Manning, she is a convicted criminal who violated the Espionage Act. So far the Army Court of Criminal Appeals has allowed the name change (done in civilian court) to be recognized by the DoD, forced DoD to call her "her" or by a gender neutral term and to wear women’s undergarments. She was diagnosed with gender identity disorder at some point -- I can't really imagine what that would be like -- but as I have said before ... we (the military) do have an obligation to address the gender identity / mental health issues; she does not lose that by virtue of her incarceration.

The Manning situation presents a really interesting issue about the incarceration of those with mental issues. Does the necessity for the incarcerated to be held accountable for their crime require that they are treated in a way that would violate their 8th Amendment rights. It is one thing to say that we put someone in a cell for 5, 10, 20 or 30 years and just forget about them (a la the Roman salt mines)? This is a hard issue when you discuss criminals who will be returned to society. I am not in any way an advocate of prison being a vacation, but this is a pretty complicated issue; especially when dealing with someone who has mental health issues.

Stalwart
03-07-2015, 12:56 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrO3TfJc9Qw

While we debate the legality of what we should call our trans-testicle traitors, Denmark is busy running Public Service announcements encouraging men to go on vacation with Hot Blondes in Lingerie and knock them up for the good of the country. Rainmaker's seriously thinking about emigrating to Denmark...

http://payload261.cargocollective.com/1/15/496798/7525996/PRICELINE-WEB-COLOGNE.gif

Mjölnir
03-07-2015, 02:07 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrO3TfJc9Qw

While we debate the legality of what we should call our trans-testicle traitors, Denmark is busy running Public Service announcements encouraging men to go on vacation with Hot Blondes in Lingerie and knock them up for the good of the country. Rainmaker's seriously thinking about emigrating to Denmark...

I read in an article today that everyone with blue eyes is a descendant of a common ancestor -- tracked back to a single genetic mutation about 10,000 years ago.

10,000 years from now if everyone in Northern Europe is yelling "Nomsayin'?" we can trace it back to here.

garhkal
03-07-2015, 04:55 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrO3TfJc9Qw

While we debate the legality of what we should call our trans-testicle traitors, Denmark is busy running Public Service announcements encouraging men to go on vacation with Hot Blondes in Lingerie and knock them up for the good of the country. Rainmaker's seriously thinking about emigrating to Denmark...

Sign me up!


How is this something wrong with the military? While the Army Court of Criminal Appeals is part of the Army, their job is to interpret the law -- not what is best for the Army. The court made the ruling, and the military is subject to the laws of our nation; otherwise we have lost more than we have gained.

Legally her name is Chelsea, she changed it last year I think ... no different than if I changed my name to George; that would be my name; should the military be barred from recognizing my name change to George?

Are you a convicted traitor to the nation? No, so my issue is WHY was he/she/it even allowed to sue to get a name change in the first place?



I am no fan of PFC Manning, she is a convicted criminal who violated the Espionage Act. So far the Army Court of Criminal Appeals has allowed the name change (done in civilian court) to be recognized by the DoD, forced DoD to call her "her" or by a gender neutral term and to wear women’s undergarments. She was diagnosed with gender identity disorder at some point -- I can't really imagine what that would be like -- but as I have said before ... we (the military) do have an obligation to address the gender identity / mental health issues; she does not lose that by virtue of her incarceration.

But is "Gender Disphroia a real mental issue, such as Bi-polarism, or OCD? Or is it one of those new fandango ADD/ADHD type diagnosis just so the medical industry can sell more drugs? Have they done proper studies on it, and found an actual mental issue (such as brain damage, imbalance in hormones etc)?



The Manning situation presents a really interesting issue about the incarceration of those with mental issues. Does the necessity for the incarcerated to be held accountable for their crime require that they are treated in a way that would violate their 8th Amendment rights. It is one thing to say that we put someone in a cell for 5, 10, 20 or 30 years and just forget about them (a la the Roman salt mines)? This is a hard issue when you discuss criminals who will be returned to society. I am not in any way an advocate of prison being a vacation, but this is a pretty complicated issue; especially when dealing with someone who has mental health issues.

The part i find screwed up is we require law abiding citizens to pay for their health care, so, why the F should we be giving 'free (well paid for by us Tax victims) to traitors/convicts etc, unless its life threatening?

Stalwart
03-07-2015, 05:09 AM
Are you a convicted traitor to the nation? No, so my issue is WHY was he/she/it even allowed to sue to get a name change in the first place?

It is a civil legal proceeding, you don't sue to change your name, you just petition the court. Why shouldn't Manning be allowed to petition a civil court, she didn't loose her right to change her name when she was convicted.



But is "Gender Disphroia a real mental issue, such as Bi-polarism, or OCD? Or is it one of those new fandango ADD/ADHD type diagnosis just so the medical industry can sell more drugs? Have they done proper studies on it, and found an actual mental issue (such as brain damage, imbalance in hormones etc)?

Don't know; I am not a psychologist, what I do know is that if it is in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders ... then it is diagnosable. I have read enough to be of the opinion that gender and sexuality are not necessarily the same: A male who transitions to female may be attracted to women; or a female who transitions to male may still be attracted to males. I have read / studied enough history to know that there are many historical figures that have exhibited some level of gender identification issue ... so my guess would be that this isn't new.



The part i find screwed up is we require law abiding citizens to pay for their health care, so, why the F should we be giving 'free (well paid for by us Tax victims) to traitors/convicts etc, unless its life threatening?

I don't really like it but that is just part of the system. In general 'elective' surgeries are not paid for in the case of federal inmates; that is changing though -- read about a case in Boston where an inmate petitioned for gender reassignment and won, the judge ruled that to not do it was a violation of the 8th Amendment. From what I have gathered is that hormone therapy is not considered elective if the recipient is actually diagnosed with a gender disorder (falls under mental health treatment -- like giving someone Prozac to treat depression.) PFC Manning is still on active duty and in a prisoner status ... still entitled to health care (to include mental health treatment) until discharged.

Rainmaker
03-07-2015, 03:41 PM
Anyone know if the University of Copenhagen accepts the GI Bill?

Rainmaker's been looking in to becoming a Danish Translator.

http://universitypost.dk/article/politics-outstripped-breasts-conservative-student-politician

garhkal
03-07-2015, 07:38 PM
It is a civil legal proceeding, you don't sue to change your name, you just petition the court. Why shouldn't Manning be allowed to petition a civil court, she didn't loose her right to change her name when she was convicted.


Why not though? She/he/it lost the right to Vote, Own weapons, and many other things by getting convicted. So why do they still get a 'right' to change their name.?



Don't know; I am not a psychologist, what I do know is that if it is in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders ... then it is diagnosable. I have read enough to be of the opinion that gender and sexuality are not necessarily the same: A male who transitions to female may be attracted to women; or a female who transitions to male may still be attracted to males. I have read / studied enough history to know that there are many historical figures that have exhibited some level of gender identification issue ... so my guess would be that this isn't new.

That's the thing though. Bi-polar disorder is also diagnosable. And the 'fix' for this mental disorder is letting them get a sex change? I am sorry, but if that is the fix, then to me it is NOT a proper disorder.



I don't really like it but that is just part of the system. In general 'elective' surgeries are not paid for in the case of federal inmates; that is changing though -- read about a case in Boston where an inmate petitioned for gender reassignment and won, the judge ruled that to not do it was a violation of the 8th Amendment. From what I have gathered is that hormone therapy is not considered elective if the recipient is actually diagnosed with a gender disorder (falls under mental health treatment -- like giving someone Prozac to treat depression.) PFC Manning is still on active duty and in a prisoner status ... still entitled to health care (to include mental health treatment) until discharged.

When i heard that judge say to 'deny' gender reassignment surgery cause it would be 'cruel and unusual punishment', it made me want to puke. I am sorry but i have never understood why we need to 'coddle' criminals. And how is saying "Sorry, you want to mutilate yourself by getting your dick cut off and some boobs, do it on your own time when you get out" cruel and unusual punishment..?

TJMAC77SP
03-07-2015, 09:12 PM
I gotta say that every cell in my brain screams that this is just plain bullshit but as Stalwart pointed out, gender identity disorders are recognized so I suppose they must be treated at the same level any other mental disorder would.


God, I HATED typing that.

Stalwart
03-08-2015, 01:57 AM
Why not though? She/he/it lost the right to Vote, Own weapons, and many other things by getting convicted. So why do they still get a 'right' to change their name.?

Well, I am not a lawyer so will tag RS6405 and maybe she can offer us some perspective.

I do know convicted felons lose some of their rights, and this is determined on the state that they live in.

I don't know if you are making your opposition to a felon changing their name as a blanket to all felons or just PFC Manning but I get your point, that a convicted felon -- in this case someone convicted of violating the Espionage Act, should lose some rights. So what rights are curtailed or surrendered? Does changing one's name fall in the same category as voting, owning a firearm or serving on a jury? To me it does not.

I don’t believe that a prisoner should lose their right to unrestricted access to the courts whether we are talking appeals of their conviction or civil matters. Where I would be cautious is if we as a society / nation go with the mentality that a convicted felon retains no rights (ignoring important aspects of the 8th & 14th Amendments) we become that which we fight. We run the risk of creating non-persons and establishing a Gulag-type system ... and at that point we have turned into what we have for so long fought. I do think we as a nation are better than that.

Stalwart
03-08-2015, 02:06 AM
I gotta say that every cell in my brain screams that this is just plain bullshit but as Stalwart pointed out, gender identity disorders are recognized so I suppose they must be treated at the same level any other mental disorder would.


God, I HATED typing that.

Doing the right thing is not always the thing we would want to do.

Rainmaker
03-08-2015, 02:18 AM
Doing the right thing is not always the thing we would want to do.

Especially living in a country destroyed by Leftist Ideologues and their Political Correctness. After all It worked so well the last time they tried it...

http://www.roca.org/OA/76-77/76f.htm

Rainmaker
03-08-2015, 02:52 AM
I gotta say that every cell in my brain screams that this is just plain bullshit but as Stalwart pointed out, gender identity disorders are recognized so I suppose they must be treated at the same level any other mental disorder would.


God, I HATED typing that.

Shoulda just stopped thinking here...........It is bullshit....There's really No need to over think it..... see Occam's razor.......


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

Stalwart
03-08-2015, 03:22 AM
Shoulda just stopped thinking here...........It is bullshit....There's really No need to over think it..... see Occam's razor.......


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

Hey ... don't take away my shout out.

TJMAC77SP
03-08-2015, 03:32 AM
Shoulda just stopped thinking here...........It is bullshit....There's really No need to over think it..... see Occam's razor.......


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

So a prisoner is diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. Do we deny him meds?

garhkal
03-08-2015, 07:30 AM
I gotta say that every cell in my brain screams that this is just plain bullshit but as Stalwart pointed out, gender identity disorders are recognized so I suppose they must be treated at the same level any other mental disorder would.


God, I HATED typing that.

Then maybe we need to change the rules, where it says we HAVE to treat someone's mental illness while they are incarcerated, otherwise it's "Cruel and unusual punishment".
Sorry but to be C&UP is something on the lines as pulling out your teeth, nails and other such tortures..

Stalwart
03-08-2015, 08:55 AM
Then maybe we need to change the rules, where it says we HAVE to treat someone's mental illness while they are incarcerated, otherwise it's "Cruel and unusual punishment".
Sorry but to be C&UP is something on the lines as pulling out your teeth, nails and other such tortures..

Based on wanting to have everything specifically spelled out that we can or can't do, torture would actually be okay. The Eighth Amendment only says:


Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Judicial interpretation has so far determined what is actually 'cruel and unusual'.

Also, I would offer that you should read Article I of the Fourteenth Amendment:


Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Note that the last part (equal protection under the law) comes after the "due process of law" part, so even a convicted criminal in prison has the right equal protection of the law.

garhkal
04-05-2015, 02:43 AM
Yet another state is being forced by lawsuits to give gender reassignment surgery / treatment to convicted felons..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3024843/Justice-Dept-Inmates-gender-condition-treated.html

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/doj-backs-ga-inmate-lawsuit-seeking-hormone-therapy-article-1.2172933

I am sorry, but though i am a man of morals and do have a heart, i can never understand why PRISONERS should be getting more medical treatments than do civilians who work, follow the law and pay taxes do. Gender reassignment surgery is considered by most insurance providers to be ELECTIVE surgery which is often not covered, so why the heck should PRISONERS get it?
I keep hearing the argument that is is cruel and unusual punishment to deny this to prisoners, but WHERE is the cruelty? WHERE is the Unusual punishment?

IMO the inmates are truly running the asylum.

Stalwart
04-05-2015, 11:37 AM
As was stated, gender identitiy disorder is a mental health issue, as such prisoners can get treatment for it up to and including gender reassignment.

sandsjames
04-05-2015, 12:46 PM
As was stated, gender identitiy disorder is a mental health issue, as such prisoners can get treatment for it up to and including gender reassignment.

It's ridiculous. This just boils my brain. Not only that, I can't believe that the rest of us are being forced to cave to the religious beliefs of more Atheists. This country would be such a better place without all these religious beliefs being pushed in our face all the time.

Stalwart
04-05-2015, 01:02 PM
It's ridiculous. This just boils my brain. Not only that, I can't believe that the rest of us are being forced to cave to the religious beliefs of more Atheists. This country would be such a better place without all these religious beliefs being pushed in our face all the time.



I am not saying I necessarily agree with it, but it is the law ... it is what it is ...

I don't know what the Atheist thing has to do with this topic at all though.

sandsjames
04-05-2015, 03:45 PM
I don't know what the Atheist thing has to do with this topic at all though.


Well, the religion of Atheism is being forced on everyone. Since the majority of religious groups feel that this sort of thing is wrong, then the religion that is taking priority is Atheism. Why is Atheism being put above all other religions? Why are Atheist laws being enforced. I should have freedom FROM religion, as well as freedom of religion, but it's obvious that the Atheists are running the government. What happened to separation of Church and State?

Stalwart
04-05-2015, 04:32 PM
Well, the religion of Atheism is being forced on everyone. Since the majority of religious groups feel that this sort of thing is wrong, then the religion that is taking priority is Atheism. Why is Atheism being put above all other religions? Why are Atheist laws being enforced. I should have freedom FROM religion, as well as freedom of religion, but it's obvious that the Atheists are running the government. What happened to separation of Church and State?

I don't feel like anything is being forced on me, nor think this is a religious issue, but one of the law.

The law (Supreme Court) has long established that the State has a responsibility to care for the medical (to include mental health) needs of prisoners. This includes medical, dental, chemical dependency and mental health treatment. In the case of gender identity disorders (mental health) this could include reassignment. This is legally under the same category and providing psychiatrists or heart medication.

Now, on a personal level I am less than excited about the use of public funds for this, but I understand that the law is the law ... and I don’t think we should toss someone in a cell, let them rot for 20 years and then pull them out at the end of their sentence and turn them (likely to be now more f-ed up than before due to institutional neglect) out on the public. I don’t think prison should be a cakewalk … but I don’t think we should have a Gulag either.

I am still having a problem following your tangent on how this is a religious issue, so not sure if it is sarcasm or hyperbole.

garhkal
04-05-2015, 11:49 PM
As was stated, gender identitiy disorder is a mental health issue, as such prisoners can get treatment for it up to and including gender reassignment.

If it's a mental disorder then, doesn't that mean it can be cured such as with Schizophrenia, OCD and bi-polar disorders, with proper medication?

Stalwart
04-06-2015, 12:37 AM
If it's a mental disorder then, doesn't that mean it can be cured such as with Schizophrenia, OCD and bi-polar disorders, with proper medication?

I am not a doc, I don't know ...

I would think that if gender reassignment is one option for 'curing' it ... then it should at least be on the table. If someone truly identifies as a different gender ... then what is the cure short of reassignment?

sandsjames
04-06-2015, 12:39 AM
I am not a doc, I don't know ...

I would think that if gender reassignment is one option for 'curing' it ... then it should at least be on the table. If someone truly identifies as a different gender ... then what is the cure short of reassignment?

If someone truly identifies, then it is not a mental illness. It can't be both.

Stalwart
04-06-2015, 12:49 AM
If someone truly identifies, then it is not a mental illness. It can't be both.

Actually, that is exactly what it is. A man who truly identifies as a woman (had one on my last ship) is pretty much the definition of gender identity disorder. But, even if you don't think it is: how do you resolve the issue of a man, who truly identifies as a woman ... while physically a man?

hustonj
04-06-2015, 07:10 PM
If it's a mental disorder then, doesn't that mean it can be cured such as with Schizophrenia, OCD and bi-polar disorders, with proper medication?

These disorders are TREATED with medication, not cured. The difference is very consequential.

hustonj
04-06-2015, 07:13 PM
If someone truly identifies, then it is not a mental illness. It can't be both.

Why not? Because it is politically incorrect to label someone's belief about what is right as a disorder?

If you are physically male, but refuse to accept that you are male, how is that NOT an abnormality?

Bos Mutus
04-06-2015, 07:15 PM
Well, the religion of Atheism is being forced on everyone. Since the majority of religious groups feel that this sort of thing is wrong, then the religion that is taking priority is Atheism. Why is Atheism being put above all other religions? Why are Atheist laws being enforced. I should have freedom FROM religion, as well as freedom of religion, but it's obvious that the Atheists are running the government. What happened to separation of Church and State?

Let me see if I got this right...since no symbols=atheist symbols, then no mention of God, must be supporting atheism.

Therefore, the Constitution is an atheist document and the US was founded as an atheist nation....sound about right?

LOL

sandsjames
04-06-2015, 07:44 PM
Why not? Because it is politically incorrect to label someone's belief about what is right as a disorder?

If you are physically male, but refuse to accept that you are male, how is that NOT an abnormality?

It absolutely is.

sandsjames
04-06-2015, 07:45 PM
Let me see if I got this right...since no symbols=atheist symbols, then no mention of God, must be supporting atheism.

Therefore, the Constitution is an atheist document and the US was founded as an atheist nation....sound about right?

LOL

That is the quandary, isn't it.

garhkal
04-06-2015, 11:16 PM
I am not a doc, I don't know ...

I would think that if gender reassignment is one option for 'curing' it ... then it should at least be on the table. If someone truly identifies as a different gender ... then what is the cure short of reassignment?

If someone truly identifies, then it is not a mental illness. It can't be both.

Exactly Sand/ If it is a TRUE feeling/identification, then how is it classed as a mental illness. If its a mental illness, how can they truly identify as being the wrong sex?
Also what i would love to know is on the kid side of it. I have over the past 2 years or so read almost a dozen reports of this or that 8yr old or younger kid, being 'identified has having Gender identity disorder. HOW THE F can that be when in many cases an 8 yr old doesn't even really know the differences between the 2 sexes??


Actually, that is exactly what it is. A man who truly identifies as a woman (had one on my last ship) is pretty much the definition of gender identity disorder. But, even if you don't think it is: how do you resolve the issue of a man, who truly identifies as a woman ... while physically a man?

but how can it be proven? I 'truly identify as a millionaire, but my reality is far from what i truly identify as. So should the government be required to sate my 'true feelings'??
I have not yet seen any official wording, on whether there are mental markers/genetic tags or chemical issues that properly show this, unlike say with OCD, Schizophrenia and the like.

garhkal
04-10-2015, 06:23 AM
Just saw something else on this subject.
If in cases like this person, the left is claiming the Govt HAS to pay for their therapy cause thei being sexually undecided etc is a "Mental issue". How then can the govt try to push a ban on conversion therapy saying its NOT a mental issue?

From the first link..
A growing number of activists and professional organizations have discredited conversion therapy for having a shaky scientific basis and treating homosexuality as a mental disorder.

Well if they themselves want it treated AS a mental issue, then why are the scientists and therapists on shakey ground doing the same?

http://www.ibtimes.com/leelahs-law-conversion-therapy-proponents-decry-obamas-push-federal-ban-lgbt-1876310

http://www.thecelebritycafe.com/feature/2015/04/obama-supports-ban-conversion-therapy-gay-lesbian-youth

http://dailycaller.com/2015/04/09/obama-calls-for-end-to-conversion-therapy-for-gay-transgender-kids/

Also, on the last link (the daily caller).. "Therapists that engage in the attempt to brainwash or reverse any child’s gender identity"

Is that not what is happening to kids raised IN Gay or lesbian households? Are they not being counciled/brainwashed by the parents into the Gay lifestyle?

Capt Alfredo
04-10-2015, 09:13 AM
Is that not what is happening to kids raised IN Gay or lesbian households? Are they not being counciled/brainwashed by the parents into the Gay lifestyle?

Remember, Capt Alfredo, it's the idea that's stupid, not the person. Attack the idea! *Deep breath*

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you're a heterosexual. Did anyone have to indoctrinate, brainwash, or counsel you to be attracted to women? Or did you one day, maybe around the age or 10 or so, maybe earlier, maybe later, look over at that cute girl and feel a little tingle? Were you confused? Did you watch Baywatch or Three's Company or whatever jiggle show was on when you were 13, and think, damn, them titties make a tent out of your shorts, or did you have to counsel or brainwash yourself into thinking that? The idea that you could brainwash someone into a "lifestyle" is laughable. Are there confused people out there who experiment? I'm sure. Are there people who don't fall into a binary either/or category? Absolutely. But the average homosexual can no more convince him or herself to be attracted to something he/she isn't than you could talk yourself into being gay tomorrow. It just doesn't add up. No amount of my cajoling you is going to turn you gay if you're not.

sandsjames
04-10-2015, 11:42 AM
Or did you one day, maybe around the age or 10 or so, maybe earlier, maybe later, look over at that cute girl and feel a little tingle? Were you confused? Did you watch Baywatch or Three's Company or whatever jiggle show was on when you were 13, and think, damn, them titties make a tent out of your shorts, or did you have to council or brainwash yourself into thinking that? Actually is was Alyssa Milano on "Who's the Boss" and (don't know the actresses name) Winny Cooper from the Wonder Years.

garhkal
04-10-2015, 10:15 PM
Actually is was Alyssa Milano on "Who's the Boss" and (don't know the actresses name) Winny Cooper from the Wonder Years.

Benny hill, and the Sun page 3 girls for me!

Bos Mutus
04-10-2015, 10:23 PM
Actually is was Alyssa Milano on "Who's the Boss" and (don't know the actresses name) Winny Cooper from the Wonder Years.


Benny hill, and the Sun page 3 girls for me!

Sears catalog

sandsjames
04-10-2015, 11:15 PM
Benny hill, and the Sun page 3 girls for me!

I hear they are getting rid of the page 3 girl

garhkal
04-11-2015, 05:16 AM
IIRC back in the late 90s, they tried a push to do away with them. It failed back then. BUT with how PC England has gotten i am not so sure it will fail this time.

sandsjames
04-11-2015, 12:23 PM
Remember, Capt Alfredo, it's the idea that's stupid, not the person. Attack the idea! *Deep breath*

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you're a heterosexual. Did anyone have to indoctrinate, brainwash, or counsel you to be attracted to women? Or did you one day, maybe around the age or 10 or so, maybe earlier, maybe later, look over at that cute girl and feel a little tingle?

I was raised in a heterosexual household. All my friends were straight. All their families were straight. So maybe that's why I had those "tingles" about girls. I'd be curious to see the percentage of kids raised by gays who end up being gay. I'm betting it is going to be higher than the percentage raised by straights. And, in my completely unscientific opinion, that would be proof that it's not something you're "born with", as is often claimed.

It's not brainwashing. It's the entire nature vs nurture discussion.

Many other social mental disorders (and apparently the sexual identity confusion is one of them) are traced back to experiences during youth.

So, you can call my idea stupid, or garhkal's question stupid, simply because it's a theory you disagree with, but seems like a valid question to me.

This just in. Nevada wants separate bathrooms for transgender in school so that straight men and women don't have to feel uncomfortable while using the facilities. Opponents argue that it's segregation. I guess, since it's a mental disorder, that having special needs classes is also segregation.

garhkal
04-11-2015, 10:25 PM
I was raised in a heterosexual household. All my friends were straight. All their families were straight. So maybe that's why I had those "tingles" about girls. I'd be curious to see the percentage of kids raised by gays who end up being gay. I'm betting it is going to be higher than the percentage raised by straights. And, in my completely unscientific opinion, that would be proof that it's not something you're "born with", as is often claimed.

I too would love to see figures showing how many males raised in a standard man-woman family become gay, versus those raised in a gay family become gay. And do the same with girls raised in a standard family compared to a lesbian family.
Then you would also need to do the same for those raised in single parent households.

RS6405
04-24-2015, 01:12 AM
Well, I am not a lawyer so will tag RS6405 and maybe she can offer us some perspective.

I do know convicted felons lose some of their rights, and this is determined on the state that they live in.

I don't know if you are making your opposition to a felon changing their name as a blanket to all felons or just PFC Manning but I get your point, that a convicted felon -- in this case someone convicted of violating the Espionage Act, should lose some rights. So what rights are curtailed or surrendered? Does changing one's name fall in the same category as voting, owning a firearm or serving on a jury? To me it does not.

I don’t believe that a prisoner should lose their right to unrestricted access to the courts whether we are talking appeals of their conviction or civil matters. Where I would be cautious is if we as a society / nation go with the mentality that a convicted felon retains no rights (ignoring important aspects of the 8th & 14th Amendments) we become that which we fight. We run the risk of creating non-persons and establishing a Gulag-type system ... and at that point we have turned into what we have for so long fought. I do think we as a nation are better than that.

Ok sorry I am late to the game, but I stay pretty busy these days.

Birth certificates are vital statistics that are kept by the individual states. Meaning it is a power granted to each state (over the federal government) and that each state can have different rules about how to handle its own birth certificates. Generally any Court can change a name on a birth certificate.

As for changing the sex on a birth certificates, that depends on the state and it own rules. Since Manning have not had the surgery to anatomically change the gender, the birth certificate should reflect male.

The Army followed suit by changing Manning's name, but still treated him as a male. As a Federal entity, it should follow whatever is reflected on the birth certificate. By providing hormone therapy, it crossed over to uncharted territory for such an entity. Typically the military will discarge individuals with gender identity issues. Yet, with the prison sentance Manning could not be dischargedby So therefore the Army prison would have to fall in line what other (non-military) federal prisons have to adhere to with other such prisoners, by providing such hormone therapy.

Stalwart you are correct, Manning had the right to change his name because it is in the U.S. Constitution. Felons do lose certain rights upon conviction, but not all rights.

As for the question of why tax payers should pay for hormone therapies.... That is a long discussion, and I had too many hearings today.