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UncommonSense
07-03-2014, 04:03 PM
On my last duty day in the AF, I present a head shaking moment.


34

Measure Man
07-03-2014, 04:06 PM
Damn, that sucks!

WILDJOKER5
07-03-2014, 04:37 PM
Wow, sucks if they arrive during softball season. Or Holiday season. Or 4th of July. Or memorial/labor day weekend. Or superbowl weekend. Or if you are over the age of 21.

Measure Man
07-03-2014, 04:57 PM
Wow, sucks if they arrive during softball season. Or Holiday season. Or 4th of July. Or memorial/labor day weekend. Or superbowl weekend. Or if you are over the age of 21.

Yeah...especially in December.

At least, when I was there, New Year's Eve was the one night we had no curfew....and Christmas Day is one of the best barhopping days in Songtan.

WILDJOKER5
07-03-2014, 05:07 PM
Yeah...especially in December.

At least, when I was there, New Year's Eve was the one night we had no curfew....and Christmas Day is one of the best barhopping days in Songtan.

From what I heard, A-town had pretty much closed up due to all the jucies being banned. I was told from a troop that just left that it was essentially against DO1 to buy any woman a drink down town.

SomeRandomGuy
07-03-2014, 07:54 PM
On my last duty day in the AF, I present a head shaking moment.


34

Is there someone in charge of keeping track of how long people have been on base now? Is the base going to keep a master excel spreadsheet that lists arrival dates for everyone? Maybe the town patrol can carry a copy. Hey Amn Snuffy it says you ahve only been here 3 weeks you aren't allowed to drink until next week.

Also can you imagine the celebrations on day 30? It will be like having a 21st bday all over again.

efmbman
07-03-2014, 08:17 PM
That sign does not exactly look like an official notice of command policy. I suspect that is a joke of some sort posted in the dorms to fool the new guys/gals.

Chris_1991-2011
07-04-2014, 12:45 AM
What purpose could that possibly serve? Is it like the phase system back in Tech School (back in '91)? Phase one (1st 30 days): no purchasing/consuming of alcohol, can't leave the base, can't wear civies, group PT 5 days per week Phase two (31-60 days): can only purchase/consume alcohol on weekends, can't leave base, can wear civies on weekends group PT 3 days per week. etc. etc.

Chris_1991-2011
07-04-2014, 02:10 AM
That sign does not exactly look like an official notice of command policy. I suspect that is a joke of some sort posted in the dorms to fool the new guys/gals.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20140703/NEWS/307030062/Commander-puts-30-day-ban-alcohol-incoming-airmen-Korea

efmbman
07-04-2014, 05:01 PM
http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20140703/NEWS/307030062/Commander-puts-30-day-ban-alcohol-incoming-airmen-Korea

Thanks for the verification. That good idea fairy will get a great comment on their annual evaluation report.

edoc118
07-04-2014, 07:56 PM
This type of stupid is why I'm glad I took VSP.

OtisRNeedleman
07-04-2014, 09:42 PM
Jan-Marc's REALLY bucking hard for that fourth star. Whoa! What a fool, treating all his people like errant children. This person is in no way a leader, just another politically correct AF manager. Undoubtedly his South Korean, Japanese, Russian, Chinese and North Korean counterparts are laughing at him in private.

And, while we're at it, when were "guests" expected to spill their blood defending their hosts? Why doesn't Jan-Marc describe US forces in the ROK as partners in defense of South Korea?

Furthermore, it isn't a good idea for everyone to visit the DMZ. Jan-Marc, of all people, should know that. He used to command what's now called (I believe) the AF ISR Agency.

Chief_KO
07-04-2014, 10:51 PM
I wonder if he called Doc for advice, channeled his spirit, or rubbed his "WWDD" bracelet...

Sergeant eNYgma
07-05-2014, 11:25 AM
Well truthfully I barely drink as is so this wouldn't bother me EXCEPT the fact I'll be going in December so no Christmas drinking for me...that's pretty lame...2 things also...Treat people like children they will behave as such...especially when they hit that 30th day you'd think they lost their damn mind.

Shadowless
07-05-2014, 12:12 PM
Team,
51 FW Supplement to 7AF policy attached. BL- Those who arrive on or after 1
Jul are affected. 2200-0500 curfew and no purchase or consumption of alcohol
until training requirements are met, initial feedback is received, and a
minimum of 30 days has passed. Please read through each policy carefully and
let's ensure all our new troops are aware.

Shadowless
07-05-2014, 12:15 PM
Well truthfully I barely drink as is so this wouldn't bother me EXCEPT the fact I'll be going in December so no Christmas drinking for me...that's pretty lame...2 things also...Treat people like children they will behave as such...especially when they hit that 30th day you'd think they lost their damn mind.

I hate when people think....well it doesn't affect me so it's not a big deal. Well kind Sir, I don't drink a lot either however I do hate being treated like a child. This should worry you not because you are not a huge drinker because it should make you ask yourself what is next? Did you know that the Air Force calls ANY off base barber shop off limits? I'm not just talking about the happy ending places I am talking about EVERY barber shop. The military is a joke and with these types or rules people just will find ways to stick it back to the man in their own way be it breaking the rules, slacking off at work, ect.

OtisRNeedleman
07-05-2014, 06:01 PM
Well truthfully I barely drink as is so this wouldn't bother me EXCEPT the fact I'll be going in December so no Christmas drinking for me...that's pretty lame...2 things also...Treat people like children they will behave as such...especially when they hit that 30th day you'd think they lost their damn mind.

Jan-Marc doesn't care. He wants that fourth star and is obviously willing to get there on the backs of his people. Hate to see how he'd run an air war in Korea. Probably wouldn't let the fighter pilots scramble unless they have participated in a bake sale within the last 30 days.

LogDog
07-05-2014, 07:02 PM
I've read all the comments on this topic and I know what I have to add will be met with criticism.

For those who think that Jan-Marc is doing this to get a fourth star are just bitching. At his level it's more about politics and a 30-day alcohol ban for newly arrived airmen in S. Korea isn't going to make anyone in the Pentagon sit up and say he deserves another star for that.

If anyone has a problem not being able to drink alcohol during their first thirty days in S. Korea then perhaps that's indicative of person with a problem. If you can't stop drinking for thirty days then you have more problems than imagining you're being treated like a baby-sat child.

OtisRNeedleman
07-05-2014, 09:16 PM
I've read all the comments on this topic and I know what I have to add will be met with criticism.

For those who think that Jan-Marc is doing this to get a fourth star are just bitching. At his level it's more about politics and a 30-day alcohol ban for newly arrived airmen in S. Korea isn't going to make anyone in the Pentagon sit up and say he deserves another star for that.

If anyone has a problem not being able to drink alcohol during their first thirty days in S. Korea then perhaps that's indicative of person with a problem. If you can't stop drinking for thirty days then you have more problems than imagining you're being treated like a baby-sat child.

I hear you, but you've alluded to the real issue - politics. And politics is why Jan-Marc issued the order. No good operational reason. No leadership - too much work to treat airmen like professionals and adults. Just looks good in the Pentagon for that fourth star. Heck, I don't even drink, but certainly don't like being treated like a child. REAL leadership treats troops like adults and professionals and deals with the miscreants by exception. Jan-Marc isn't a real leader, just someone wearing stars. Don't think I'd want to go war under him. He'd probably demand we hold bake sales while sheltering.

Chief_KO
07-05-2014, 10:07 PM
I kind of like the idea of a bake sale while sheltering...no more Pop Tarts and Hot Pockets for me! (well if I were still active duty).
The last time I was at Osan (visiting the in-laws in Seoul) was 2009 or 2010. The lack of morale, spirit, camaraderie (or whatever term you wish to use) was palpable. Close your eyes and open again, you can't tell if you're at Langley, Peterson, Beale, or Randolph.
It's not just the 'ville, dancers, & booze either. The whole place is like a bowling alley with the rubber bumpers on it...
Hard to explain, but it is hard to have the "Tip of the Spear" mentality with all the amenities of "homebase" USA.

Koa1121
07-05-2014, 10:13 PM
Absolute garbage leadership. It's not the fact that I can't have a drink for 30 days, it's the fact that it's being used as a political statement. I've already been stationed in Korea once, been back there TDY several times, been on the DMZ tour, been in the AF for 13 years with zero work or private issues related to alcohol. Do I really need to be indoctrinated when I get there in January? Nope. Just another example of lazy senior leadership not wanting to do hard work, instead trying to take the quickest and easiest way out for themselves while looking good for their bosses.

giggawatt
07-05-2014, 11:36 PM
I've read all the comments on this topic and I know what I have to add will be met with criticism.

For those who think that Jan-Marc is doing this to get a fourth star are just bitching. At his level it's more about politics and a 30-day alcohol ban for newly arrived airmen in S. Korea isn't going to make anyone in the Pentagon sit up and say he deserves another star for that.

If anyone has a problem not being able to drink alcohol during their first thirty days in S. Korea then perhaps that's indicative of person with a problem. If you can't stop drinking for thirty days then you have more problems than imagining you're being treated like a baby-sat child.

I don't think people are so upset about not drinking. I mean, most of us have deployed to alcohol free zones. The issue is childish rules like this that "leadership" keeps coming up with.

Everyone has heard about the Al Udeid "nazis" and all the childish rules that everyone hated. The last wing king when I was there relaxed a lot of those rules, to include visits by the opposite sex in the dorms and the reflective belt rules. People were so much laid back and we didn't have any more misconduct that you normally have from knuckleheads.

What they're doing in Korea is pretty sad really. The older I get, the more I hate being treated like a child.

Sergeant eNYgma
07-06-2014, 10:24 AM
I hate when people think....well it doesn't affect me so it's not a big deal. Well kind Sir, I don't drink a lot either however I do hate being treated like a child. This should worry you not because you are not a huge drinker because it should make you ask yourself what is next? Did you know that the Air Force calls ANY off base barber shop off limits? I'm not just talking about the happy ending places I am talking about EVERY barber shop. The military is a joke and with these types or rules people just will find ways to stick it back to the man in their own way be it breaking the rules, slacking off at work, ect.

Did you read the part of my post AFTER I stated I barely drink? I said "If you treat people like children they will behave as such". Not necessarily calling myself out because I again I don't drink much but I think this will lead to more problems than it actually solves. That's what the 2nd part of the post meant. No I didn't know about the barber shops I'm not there until early December so I'm sure I'll receive 19 death by powerpoint sessions.

Shadowless
07-06-2014, 12:37 PM
Did you read the part of my post AFTER I stated I barely drink? I said "If you treat people like children they will behave as such". Not necessarily calling myself out because I again I don't drink much but I think this will lead to more problems than it actually solves. That's what the 2nd part of the post meant. No I didn't know about the barber shops I'm not there until early December so I'm sure I'll receive 19 death by powerpoint sessions.

Yeah you will, where are you coming? Osan or Kunsan? Oh and to make matters worse, they try to say any body of water is off limits as well lol, the military in Korea is a joke with all the rules. They even track everything you buy on base, even cold medicine and if you buy to much per month they call your first shirt because they think if you are prone to allergies in a country like KOREA then you must be abusing drugs.

Shadowless
07-06-2014, 12:42 PM
Also, be careful of all the bullshit the Air Force will try to brain wash you with. For example, going to war at any moment, well if this was true the Commander probably wouldn't have his entire family here while others are stuck here on one year tours all alone. I honestly feel far safer in Korea then I ever did in the USA, no joke. Leadership is also spreading false rumors to try to scare people from breaking rules such as curfew by spreading fake rumors that there are undercover military roaming around Korea looking for US members out past one am. When my supervisor told me this bullshit I told her that if anyone tried to ask me for my ID or anything and was not in uniform or with other official military or police I would punch that person dead in the face for harassing me. She didn't like that.

hgarmorer
07-06-2014, 03:31 PM
7AF released this PA bit a few days ago. http://www.7af.pacaf.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123416670

- A 7th AF mission brief
- A U.S. Forces Korea intelligence estimate and operation plan review
- Anti-terrorism/Force Protection briefings
- Unit specific mission orientations
- A goals development plan for enlisted Airmen E-4 and below and officers O-2 and below
- Sexual assault prevention and response training
- Alcohol awareness training
- An initial feedback completed by the assigned supervisor

Looks like all the same BS we got back in '07. Rehashing of the same old crap

waveshaper2
07-06-2014, 03:35 PM
Yeah you will, where are you coming? Osan or Kunsan? Oh and to make matters worse, they try to say any body of water is off limits as well lol, the military in Korea is a joke with all the rules. They even track everything you buy on base, even cold medicine and if you buy to much per month they call your first shirt because they think if you are prone to allergies in a country like KOREA then you must be abusing drugs.

I did three tours in the ROK but it was long ago and way to much of my time there was spent visiting/camping/living in the boonies. If I remember correctly, barber shops and Korean drug stores have been off limits since at least the 70's.

Bodies of water off limits, do you realize where you are? I also spent lots of time TDY/fish fetching on some of the loveliest beaches/islands in the ROK.

WARNINGS(Saltwater);
a. Don't venture out on the beaches, particularly at low tide. If you haven't noticed the tides/currents along the west coast of Korea (Yellow Sea) are some of the worst in the world. When the tides go out, they go out fast, and this is the only place I have ever seen the tide go out so far, you can no longer see the ocean. I know it would go out about 7 or 8 miles in the Northwest portion of the ROK coastline. When the tide comes in it rises rapidly, almost like a mini tsunami and you have to jog to stay ahead of it and hope you don't get stuck in the mud. One of my friends got trapped on some rocks by the rising tide, in the fog, 2 miles from shore and had to be rescued (he was very lucky) by a LARC just as the rocks he was standing on were going under water.
b. Just about all beaches/coastline is under some form of observation/patrolled 24/7, may also be covered by direct/indirect fire, have strict access rules/points, and some key location were protected by minefields. The further north you go the more these things come into play.
c. Freshwater bodies of water (lots of problems, to much to cover here).

OtisRNeedleman
07-06-2014, 10:26 PM
I did three tours in the ROK but it was long ago and way to much of my time there was spent visiting/camping/living in the boonies. If I remember correctly, barber shops and Korean drug stores have been off limits since at least the 70's.

Bodies of water off limits, do you realize where you are? I also spent lots of time TDY/fish fetching on some of the loveliest beaches/islands in the ROK.

WARNINGS(Saltwater);
a. Don't venture out on the beaches, particularly at low tide. If you haven't noticed the tides/currents along the west coast of Korea (Yellow Sea) are some of the worst in the world. When the tides go out, they go out fast, and this is the only place I have ever seen the tide go out so far, you can no longer see the ocean. I know it would go out about 7 or 8 miles in the Northwest portion of the ROK coastline. When the tide comes in it rises rapidly, almost like a mini tsunami and you have to jog to stay ahead of it and hope you don't get stuck in the mud. One of my friends got trapped on some rocks by the rising tide, in the fog, 2 miles from shore and had to be rescued (he was very lucky) by a LARC just as the rocks he was standing on were going under water.
b. Just about all beaches/coastline is under some form of observation/patrolled 24/7, may also be covered by direct/indirect fire, have strict access rules/points, and some key location were protected by minefields. The further north you go the more these things come into play.
c. Freshwater bodies of water (lots of problems, to much to cover here).

Yup, Korean drug stores were off-limits when I first got there in 1976. Doubt that ever stopped anyone. Easy enough to get a Korean to get stuff for a GI. Think barber shops downtown were off-limits, too. Always got my hair cut on base.

In my opinion, in the 70's and 80's we were just as ready to fight tonight as they are now. Was doing my wartime job both tours anyway. And we didn't have a tenth as much baloney to put up with as those in Korea do now. Hard to see how anyone enjoys a tour in Korea any more unless they are mainlining the blue Koolaid.

Airborne
07-07-2014, 01:38 AM
Yup, Korean drug stores were off-limits when I first got there in 1976. Doubt that ever stopped anyone. Easy enough to get a Korean to get stuff for a GI. Think barber shops downtown were off-limits, too. Always got my hair cut on base.

In my opinion, in the 70's and 80's we were just as ready to fight tonight as they are now. Was doing my wartime job both tours anyway. And we didn't have a tenth as much baloney to put up with as those in Korea do now. Hard to see how anyone enjoys a tour in Korea any more unless they are mainlining the blue Koolaid.

Im not sure how it was then, but quite a few people use it as a way to get away from a place they dont like and get a follow on to someplace they do like. Im not sure what the percentage rate is but I could count on one hand the people that havent gotten their number one or two follow on choice in my AFSC.

OtisRNeedleman
07-07-2014, 03:43 AM
Im not sure how it was then, but quite a few people use it as a way to get away from a place they dont like and get a follow on to someplace they do like. Im not sure what the percentage rate is but I could count on one hand the people that havent gotten their number one or two follow on choice in my AFSC.

Depends on the AFSC. As a Korean linguist in the late 70's, not too many places you could go, so many people extended in Korea - I extended to my ETS. Then when I came back in 82 as a SIGINT officer would have liked extending but was in the entry-level job and someone else needed the seasoning. But I did get to go somewhere I wanted to go out of Korea. Actually, I got the hell out of Electronic Security Command and went back to Goodfellow and ATC.

Sergeant eNYgma
07-07-2014, 06:56 AM
Yeah you will, where are you coming? Osan or Kunsan? Oh and to make matters worse, they try to say any body of water is off limits as well lol, the military in Korea is a joke with all the rules. They even track everything you buy on base, even cold medicine and if you buy to much per month they call your first shirt because they think if you are prone to allergies in a country like KOREA then you must be abusing drugs.

Departure date is 1 Dec and RNLT is 10 Dec. Going to Osan. Like I said I agree with you pretty much ridiculous rules just for the sake makes the rank and file think of you as an out of touch idiot pretty much. Also piggybacking off your next pose I agree 100% I'm in no way shape or form handing my ID to someone asking who isn't readily identifiable...so yes punch in the face...

Chief_KO
07-07-2014, 01:15 PM
The Nanny state that the AF propagates...
I remember the "reason" for ALL barbershops downtown being off-limits was "hygiene." The Korean barbers didn't use that blue liquid to sanitize their scissors/razors.
Same reason that ALL steamrooms/massage/public baths were off limits...the water is not chlorinated.
Of course the "real" reason is the "happy service" one might receive at certain locations (if you so desire & pay).
I also remember the briefing from Public Health regarding eating downtown, buying fruits & vegetables,etc. I think you were supposed to wash everything in a bleach/water solution...Funny, my wife bought all our fruits/vegs in the market (or Korean supermarket). Biggest sweetest tastiest strawberries (baseball sized) and carrots as big as my wrist. Just rinse in water like normal...never had any issues.
Put enough "fear" into a newbie so all they feel safe is in the bars off base drinking, never venture away from GI town...yep that's a winning strategy.

WILDJOKER5
07-07-2014, 01:47 PM
If anyone has a problem not being able to drink alcohol during their first thirty days in S. Korea then perhaps that's indicative of person with a problem. If you can't stop drinking for thirty days then you have more problems than imagining you're being treated like a baby-sat child.
So you resort to blaming the "victim"? We are adults. The drinking age there used to be 20, still is 18 off base for the country. Has anyone heard of USAFE changing the drinking age to 21? They can still drink and drive there. I dont drink much, but to deny men and women the right to this simple release of stress because of a very few people who could do a lot worse in the states or EU is pathetic. Then to say "cant stop drinking for 30 day? You have a problem" is assinign. The first few days is when you are building your repore with your coworkers, and how much fun is it if you are the one that cant be part of the crowd and share some drinks? I didnt want to go to the hooch to be sober playing corn hole.

Sitting on the bleachers after a softball game wouldnt have been necessary or enjoyable without some beers to sip on while heckling the other teams. Its not about weather someone has a problem or not, thats not up to the commander unless they cause a problem while being drunk. We cant prevent stupidity, and those who truly do have a problem will drink reguardless.

WILDJOKER5
07-07-2014, 02:05 PM
The Nanny state that the AF propagates...
I remember the "reason" for ALL barbershops downtown being off-limits was "hygiene." The Korean barbers didn't use that blue liquid to sanitize their scissors/razors.
Same reason that ALL steamrooms/massage/public baths were off limits...the water is not chlorinated.
Of course the "real" reason is the "happy service" one might receive at certain locations (if you so desire & pay).
I also remember the briefing from Public Health regarding eating downtown, buying fruits & vegetables,etc. I think you were supposed to wash everything in a bleach/water solution...Funny, my wife bought all our fruits/vegs in the market (or Korean supermarket). Biggest sweetest tastiest strawberries (baseball sized) and carrots as big as my wrist. Just rinse in water like normal...never had any issues.
Put enough "fear" into a newbie so all they feel safe is in the bars off base drinking, never venture away from GI town...yep that's a winning strategy.I definately was scared when I was 19 in Osan. Never traveled past songtong (sp) till friends convinced me to go to world cup game far away. Curfew? Whats that in the middle of the country, lol.

waveshaper2
07-07-2014, 02:28 PM
The Nanny state that the AF propagates...
I remember the "reason" for ALL barbershops downtown being off-limits was "hygiene." The Korean barbers didn't use that blue liquid to sanitize their scissors/razors.
Same reason that ALL steamrooms/massage/public baths were off limits...the water is not chlorinated.
Of course the "real" reason is the "happy service" one might receive at certain locations (if you so desire & pay).
I also remember the briefing from Public Health regarding eating downtown, buying fruits & vegetables,etc. I think you were supposed to wash everything in a bleach/water solution...Funny, my wife bought all our fruits/vegs in the market (or Korean supermarket). Biggest sweetest tastiest strawberries (baseball sized) and carrots as big as my wrist. Just rinse in water like normal...never had any issues.
Put enough "fear" into a newbie so all they feel safe is in the bars off base drinking, never venture away from GI town...yep that's a winning strategy.

Very sad but all you said is so true. The only time I got sick in Korea was from eating at the NCO Club (fluid coming out both ends).

How can you hold a proper Green Bean for the new troops if they can't drink for 30 days?

Chief_KO
07-07-2014, 06:35 PM
How can you hold a proper Green Bean for the new troops if they can't drink for 30 days?

Doc pretty much killed (or morally wounded) Green & Brown Beans back in '95. They might still exist, but only as a poor imitation of what they once were.

LogDog
07-07-2014, 07:13 PM
The Nanny state that the AF propagates...
I remember the "reason" for ALL barbershops downtown being off-limits was "hygiene." The Korean barbers didn't use that blue liquid to sanitize their scissors/razors.
Same reason that ALL steamrooms/massage/public baths were off limits...the water is not chlorinated.
Of course the "real" reason is the "happy service" one might receive at certain locations (if you so desire & pay).
I also remember the briefing from Public Health regarding eating downtown, buying fruits & vegetables,etc. I think you were supposed to wash everything in a bleach/water solution...Funny, my wife bought all our fruits/vegs in the market (or Korean supermarket). Biggest sweetest tastiest strawberries (baseball sized) and carrots as big as my wrist. Just rinse in water like normal...never had any issues.
Put enough "fear" into a newbie so all they feel safe is in the bars off base drinking, never venture away from GI town...yep that's a winning strategy.
I was at Osan from 91' - 92' and we had a retired TSgt working as a civilian in our shop. He got his haircut at a Korean barbershop because he could get a BJ at the same time.

I remember those in-processing briefings and the pictures they showed. Reminded me of the car accident movies they showed in driver's education.

LogDog
07-07-2014, 07:19 PM
So you resort to blaming the "victim"? We are adults. The drinking age there used to be 20, still is 18 off base for the country. Has anyone heard of USAFE changing the drinking age to 21? They can still drink and drive there. I dont drink much, but to deny men and women the right to this simple release of stress because of a very few people who could do a lot worse in the states or EU is pathetic. Then to say "cant stop drinking for 30 day? You have a problem" is assinign. The first few days is when you are building your repore with your coworkers, and how much fun is it if you are the one that cant be part of the crowd and share some drinks? I didnt want to go to the hooch to be sober playing corn hole.
Whining is and always will be a right for GIs. However, whining just to be whining doesn't provide a coherent argument. Not being able to drink alcohol for the first 30 days doesn't make anyone a victim.


Sitting on the bleachers after a softball game wouldnt have been necessary or enjoyable without some beers to sip on while heckling the other teams. Its not about weather someone has a problem or not, thats not up to the commander unless they cause a problem while being drunk. We cant prevent stupidity, and those who truly do have a problem will drink reguardless.
Again, 30 days without alcohol really isn't an imposition on anyone except those with a problem with alcohol. If you can't enjoy a softball game without a beer then you have to ask yourself why?

Measure Man
07-07-2014, 07:25 PM
I was at Osan from 91' - 92' and we had a retired TSgt working as a civilian in our shop. He got his haircut at a Korean barbershop because he could get a BJ at the same time.

The urban legend is that the customer has a warm wet towel placed over their face during the haircut combo...and that Joe Bagadonuts once peeked out from under the towel to find that the BJ was being done by a small male child.


I remember those in-processing briefings and the pictures they showed. Reminded me of the car accident movies they showed in driver's education.



Whining is and always will be a right for GIs. However, whining just to be whining doesn't provide a coherent argument. Not being able to drink alcohol for the first 30 days doesn't make anyone a victim.

Again, 30 days without alcohol really isn't an imposition on anyone except those with a problem with alcohol. If you can't enjoy a softball game without a beer then you have to ask yourself why?

Such BS...

Can you imagine being a 40+ year old SNCO and being told you're not allowed to have a beer?

Got nothing to do with alcohol problems...it has to do with viewing your subordinates and individuals worthy of respect.

Yes...Korea has a lot of alcohol problems, but all subordinates are not in it together.

LogDog
07-07-2014, 07:29 PM
So you resort to blaming the "victim"? We are adults. The drinking age there used to be 20, still is 18 off base for the country. Has anyone heard of USAFE changing the drinking age to 21? They can still drink and drive there. I dont drink much, but to deny men and women the right to this simple release of stress because of a very few people who could do a lot worse in the states or EU is pathetic. Then to say "cant stop drinking for 30 day? You have a problem" is assinign. The first few days is when you are building your repore with your coworkers, and how much fun is it if you are the one that cant be part of the crowd and share some drinks? I didnt want to go to the hooch to be sober playing corn hole.

Sitting on the bleachers after a softball game wouldnt have been necessary or enjoyable without some beers to sip on while heckling the other teams. Its not about weather someone has a problem or not, thats not up to the commander unless they cause a problem while being drunk. We cant prevent stupidity, and those who truly do have a problem will drink reguardless.

Im not sure how it was then, but quite a few people use it as a way to get away from a place they dont like and get a follow on to someplace they do like. Im not sure what the percentage rate is but I could count on one hand the people that havent gotten their number one or two follow on choice in my AFSC.
I have to agree with you on this. In my case, I had been at Cannon AFB for four years and I wanted to PCS because I was getting tired of the shop and superintendent. I had an assignment to the Philippines but that was cancelled so I took an assignment to Korea.

When I was at Osan there were two other reasons for many being their was it was a "Party Tour" and they could hide out there. The party tour was for those who loved to drink and party without getting into trouble. The others were there and would extend because they were basically those who did the minimum amount of work (lazy) and there supervisor wouldn't be there long enough to document to get the airman discharged from the service. I saw this in my shop and other shops. In my shop, I had a TSgt requesting his second extension, which would make four consecutive years in Korea, and I declined to sign-off on. He was a goof-off and was hiding out. He lasted just over a year at his next stateside tour before being kicked-out.

Koa1121
07-08-2014, 01:42 AM
Whining is and always will be a right for GIs. However, whining just to be whining doesn't provide a coherent argument. Not being able to drink alcohol for the first 30 days doesn't make anyone a victim.


Again, 30 days without alcohol really isn't an imposition on anyone except those with a problem with alcohol. If you can't enjoy a softball game without a beer then you have to ask yourself why?

STOP falling back on the "if you can't go 30 days" weak argument. It has nothing to do with the 30 days of not drinking. It has everything to do with treating everyone as a child and making it sound like it's for our "readiness".. If it was truly for readiness it would be in effect for all 12 months. It's about copping out and weak leadership. Having served in the ROK already, coupled with TDY's back there, and having been to the DMZ already what will this 30 day "indoctrination" period really accomplish besides make me realize my leadership doesn't trust ME because of the actions of a FEW..

Chris_1991-2011
07-08-2014, 04:43 AM
The "if you can't go for 30 days without drinking" argument is valid and very true; it's just not relevant to this policy. If you can't go for a day, a few days, a week, a month, etc. without drinking then you do in fact have a problem. In my opinion, if you use this as an argument for the policy being bad/wrong/shit, it's a very weak argument. If someone fits into this category, they have bigger issues than some BS policy to be concerned about, and can't use the policy as an excuse for any issues they'll have under the policy.

I can't see or imagine this policy doing anything positive to reduce any negative issues that have occurred in Korea, or anything else. This policy is an example of weak, knee jerk, reactionary, lazy "leadership." I'd be surprised if it had any type of affect other than lowering morale.

Koa1121
07-08-2014, 05:53 AM
The "if you can't go for 30 days without drinking" argument is valid and very true; it's just not relevant to this policy. If you can't go for a day, a few days, a week, a month, etc. without drinking then you do in fact have a problem. In my opinion, if you use this as an argument for the policy being bad/wrong/shit, it's a very weak argument. If someone fits into this category, they have bigger issues than some BS policy to be concerned about, and can't use the policy as an excuse for any issues they'll have under the policy.

I can't see or imagine this policy doing anything positive to reduce any negative issues that have occurred in Korea, or anything else. This policy is an example of weak, knee jerk, reactionary, lazy "leadership." I'd be surprised if it had any type of affect other than lowering morale.

I've yet to read where someone has literally said they couldn't go 30 days without drinking. Everything I've read is exactly what you pointed out in your second paragraph and what I said in my post. It's childish, weak leadership that won't do a thing to curb alcohol related stupidity or "increase readiness" like it's stated to. People keep falling back on the "if you can't go 30 days" argument but no one is really complaining about not drinking, it's the premise behind the rule.

Stalwart
07-08-2014, 06:04 AM
So a new transfer into Korea cannot drink for their first 30-days in country, but on day 31 can go hog wild?

Don't get me wrong, in some cases I think group punishment can be highly effective, but this does seem odd. Of my three deployments to AUAB there was a two drink maximum policy in effect, that had the same tone. Was there genuinely good intent? Maybe ... but bad execution.

On some level I can agree that a Commander has cause to be concerned that what 10 or 20+ years ago would have been just a drunken incident in town will now explode into the next big story on a slow news day that causes international embarrassment and political crap to roll downhill. At the same time, treating people professionally and as adults goes a long way in getting them to act professionally.

Chris_1991-2011
07-08-2014, 06:43 AM
I've yet to read where someone has literally said they couldn't go 30 days without drinking. Everything I've read is exactly what you pointed out in your second paragraph and what I said in my post. It's childish, weak leadership that won't do a thing to curb alcohol related stupidity or "increase readiness" like it's stated to. People keep falling back on the "if you can't go 30 days" argument but no one is really complaining about not drinking, it's the premise behind the rule.

I probably could have worded the first paragraph better and made it shorter. Like I said the "if you can't go for 30 days without drinking" argument is valid and very true. It's an argument that someone has issues that need to be dealt with. It could be used to make someone realize their behavior isn't normal. It is not a valid argument/point regarding this policy. I think some people, who think this policy is a non-issue, resort to this argument in an effort to illustrate their position. I was taking the 30 day thing literally, word for word, and stating that by itself it's true. When used relating to or regarding this policy it isn't true. To put it another way, not being able to go 30 without drinking is an apple, and this policy is an orange. They're both fruit, but totally different.

I'd be willing to bet you won't read where someone has said they couldn't go 30 days without drinking; at least not in relation to this policy. (I know if I couldn't go 30 days without drinking it'd be a tightly held secret.). There is a possibility that some people PCSing to Korea in the future (while the policy is still in effect), or those currently there, may be those "can't go 30" folks. But they're (very) likely a very small minority, and can't use the policy as an excuse for any issues they'll have under the policy.

technomage1
07-08-2014, 10:39 AM
I was thinkning about volunteering for Korea again but maybe I'll give it a pass if that's how people are going to be treated now. Are you seriously telling me that as an over 40 SNCO I'm going to be treated like a child? If I want to enjoy a beer and watch the game I should be able to.

Can I go without? Sure, since I'm downrange since Feb I've had no choice and not missed it. But should I be forced to because of a blanket policy that treats people like children? No, I don't think so. Maybe something should be in effect like 27 and under can't drink until they undergo a brief if it's really that much of a problem. But I'm willing to bet the majority of problems are not my demographic.

In general I find if you treat people like children that is exactly how they are going to act.

WILDJOKER5
07-08-2014, 12:19 PM
Whining is and always will be a right for GIs. However, whining just to be whining doesn't provide a coherent argument. Not being able to drink alcohol for the first 30 days doesn't make anyone a victim.Thats why I quoted the word. I know they really arent victims, its just your arguement is the same as "If she wasnt wearing that short skirt, she wouldnt have been assumed to be a slut", to a MUCH lesser degree. They are both adults and assume the resposibility for their actions and choices.


Again, 30 days without alcohol really isn't an imposition on anyone except those with a problem with alcohol. If you can't enjoy a softball game without a beer then you have to ask yourself why?
Because other team's games are boring, duh. :P

WILDJOKER5
07-08-2014, 12:32 PM
I'd be willing to bet you won't read where someone has said they couldn't go 30 days without drinking; at least not in relation to this policy. (I know if I couldn't go 30 days without drinking it'd be a tightly held secret.). There is a possibility that some people PCSing to Korea in the future (while the policy is still in effect), or those currently there, may be those "can't go 30" folks. But they're (very) likely a very small minority, and can't use the policy as an excuse for any issues they'll have under the policy.

My question about this whole thing is, how in the hell would they enforce it? Friends, roommates, coworkers, bars off base all will serve you beer. Or is this just a rule so they can hammer a newbie harder if they have an alcoholic incedent within 30 days of arrival? Kind of like how people dont really get booted or in trouble for adultry, but for disobeying a "do not contact" order from the chief, 1st shirt, or commander?

OtisRNeedleman
07-08-2014, 03:21 PM
Yup, as usual, Jan-Marc joins the rest of today's AF top management - NOT leadership, in trumpeting style over substance. As has been pointed out, the 30-day rule is just insulting eyewash. On day 31 a drinker can get as soused as they like. It treats professional airmen like children. So let me guess, Jan-Marc's newly arrived flag officer deputy, attending a high-level dinner with the South Koreans in Seoul, won't be able to accept a proffered glass of wine, correct? Rather undiplomatic, I'd say. What has happened is that Jan-Marc doesn't trust ANY of his subordinates, no matter what the rank and position, to act like adults and professionals.

And visiting the DMZ? As a SIGINT officer I wouldn't go near there. During my two tours, 39 months, I never went north of Seoul. We were "highly discouraged" from going to the JSA. Matter of fact, whenever we went on cycle break we had to sign out at the unit if leaving the Songtan area. Understand things have changed but Jan-Marc of all people should realize you shouldn't "highly desire" your intel people up on the DMZ, having been vice commander of the AF ISR Agency.

But what the heck, it's a great performance report bullet, and should help pave the way for that fourth star, and God only knows what idiocy to come.

WILDJOKER5
07-08-2014, 03:36 PM
Yup, as usual, Jan-Marc joins the rest of today's AF top management - NOT leadership, in trumpeting style over substance. As has been pointed out, the 30-day rule is just insulting eyewash. On day 31 a drinker can get as soused as they like. It treats professional airmen like children. So let me guess, Jan-Marc's newly arrived flag officer deputy, attending a high-level dinner with the South Koreans in Seoul, won't be able to accept a proffered glass of wine, correct? Rather undiplomatic, I'd say. What has happened is that Jan-Marc doesn't trust ANY of his subordinates, no matter what the rank and position, to act like adults and professionals.

And visiting the DMZ? As a SIGINT officer I wouldn't go near there. During my two tours, 39 months, I never went north of Seoul. We were "highly discouraged" from going to the JSA. Matter of fact, whenever we went on cycle break we had to sign out at the unit if leaving the Songtan area. Understand things have changed but Jan-Marc of all people should realize you shouldn't "highly desire" your intel people up on the DMZ, having been vice commander of the AF ISR Agency.

But what the heck, it's a great performance report bullet, and should help pave the way for that fourth star, and God only knows what idiocy to come.Havent all the best generals with great leadership potential been fired by Obama? Its easier to control managers than it is to control Leaders when you keep putting out insurection type behavior. Look at Thailand, their Generals preformed a coup because they thought their prince is an oaf and didnt want to see their country fall to shit.

Cache Trogle
07-08-2014, 06:53 PM
Yeah you will, where are you coming? Osan or Kunsan? Oh and to make matters worse, they try to say any body of water is off limits as well lol, the military in Korea is a joke with all the rules. They even track everything you buy on base, even cold medicine and if you buy to much per month they call your first shirt because they think if you are prone to allergies in a country like KOREA then you must be abusing drugs.

Easy. Not every rule set forth in the military is to inconvenience you. One of the reasons they monitor what you buy is so (for an example); you don't run into a situation at the Commisary where you can't buy a bag of chips and a case of pop and a few gatorades. BECAUSE they are all in squadrons snack bars. All that stuff on the shelves takes some logistics to get it there. Lighten' up. You're gonna look back on Osan for the rest of your career fondly whether you believe it now or not.

SomeRandomGuy
07-08-2014, 08:55 PM
My question about this whole thing is, how in the hell would they enforce it? Friends, roommates, coworkers, bars off base all will serve you beer. Or is this just a rule so they can hammer a newbie harder if they have an alcoholic incedent within 30 days of arrival? Kind of like how people dont really get booted or in trouble for adultry, but for disobeying a "do not contact" order from the chief, 1st shirt, or commander?

Audultry usually gets prosecuted as violating a no contact order because that is all that can be proven. Unless the woman gets pregnant how do you prove two people had sex unless they taped it? You really can't. What you can prove instead is that people continued to contact each other after they were told not to. This can be done through email, text or other means.

As far as your original question, there isn't really anything stopping someone from consuming alcohol the first 30 days. It is no different than the phase system in tech school. If someone sees you off base they are not automatically going to know what phase you're in unless they happen to know you just arrived. Basically, it will create a situation where people are tattling on each other.

It will also create another huge issue. Let's say Amn WildJoker got here two weeks ago. He goes out with a few close friends and has a couple of beers. He gets spotted by his first sergeant or supervisor and now he is in trouble for violating a lawful order. Since the incident is considered "alcohol related" WildJoker gets referred to ADAPT.

At ADAPT WildJoker's counselor is the poster above who feels that "if you can't go 30 days without drinking you are an alcoholic". Now WildJoker is entered into the 6 month outpatient ADAPT program because he has a drinking problem. This now means he can't drink for at least 6 months. If Wildjoker is like most Amn in this situation he will do it anyways. Now Wildjoker is labeled an alcoholic (probably isn't) and has ruined his career with the Article 15 he recieved. All because some Gen. wanted to cover his ass and make sure WildJoker didn't party too hard until day 31.

BRUWIN
07-09-2014, 11:24 AM
Audultry usually gets prosecuted as violating a no contact order because that is all that can be proven. Unless the woman gets pregnant how do you prove two people had sex unless they taped it? You really can't. What you can prove instead is that people continued to contact each other after they were told not to. This can be done through email, text or other means.

As far as your original question, there isn't really anything stopping someone from consuming alcohol the first 30 days. It is no different than the phase system in tech school. If someone sees you off base they are not automatically going to know what phase you're in unless they happen to know you just arrived. Basically, it will create a situation where people are tattling on each other.

It will also create another huge issue. Let's say Amn WildJoker got here two weeks ago. He goes out with a few close friends and has a couple of beers. He gets spotted by his first sergeant or supervisor and now he is in trouble for violating a lawful order. Since the incident is considered "alcohol related" WildJoker gets referred to ADAPT.

At ADAPT WildJoker's counselor is the poster above who feels that "if you can't go 30 days without drinking you are an alcoholic". Now WildJoker is entered into the 6 month outpatient ADAPT program because he has a drinking problem. This now means he can't drink for at least 6 months. If Wildjoker is like most Amn in this situation he will do it anyways. Now Wildjoker is labeled an alcoholic (probably isn't) and has ruined his career with the Article 15 he recieved. All because some Gen. wanted to cover his ass and make sure WildJoker didn't party too hard until day 31.

Do they even have ADAPT in Korea? Seems like kind of a waste of manpower. Nobody goes to ADAPT while in Korea. I never realized they had one there.

Chief_KO
07-09-2014, 01:17 PM
My first DMZ tour was in 1985, back then it was Service Dress (no nametags) and Capt & below. The NK were taking pictures of us non-stop.

1990 one of the most popular MWR tours was the OB Brewery/Jinro distillery. At Jinro one learned what soju really is (and its not what most think it is), and included wine coolers (it was 1990) in the hospitality room. On the way out each of us was presented a gift bottle of Jinro's best soju (like whiskeys there are different qualities).

Well, one stop on the Jinro tour was a visit to a historical room filled with antique bottles, glasses, plates etc. going back several hundred years. As we were sitting on the bus ready to head back to Osan the ajimas came running out, seems someone in the group had stolen an antique bottle. Yep, there was an Osan Airman (female type) who stole an antique while on an MWR tour.

That my friends was the last time the OB tour included the Jinro distillery, after this incident a temple was the second stop.

A tour in Korea used to be a good tour, one could see centuries of history, eat some delicious (and downright weird) foods, see first hand how freedom & capitalism works, and yes drink and have fun. It's too bad so few f'd it up for so many.

hustonj
07-09-2014, 03:13 PM
Audultry usually gets prosecuted as violating a no contact order because that is all that can be proven. Unless the woman gets pregnant how do you prove two people had sex unless they taped it? You really can't. What you can prove instead is that people continued to contact each other after they were told not to. This can be done through email, text or other means.

As far as your original question, there isn't really anything stopping someone from consuming alcohol the first 30 days. It is no different than the phase system in tech school. If someone sees you off base they are not automatically going to know what phase you're in unless they happen to know you just arrived. Basically, it will create a situation where people are tattling on each other.

It will also create another huge issue. Let's say Amn WildJoker got here two weeks ago. He goes out with a few close friends and has a couple of beers. He gets spotted by his first sergeant or supervisor and now he is in trouble for violating a lawful order. Since the incident is considered "alcohol related" WildJoker gets referred to ADAPT.

At ADAPT WildJoker's counselor is the poster above who feels that "if you can't go 30 days without drinking you are an alcoholic". Now WildJoker is entered into the 6 month outpatient ADAPT program because he has a drinking problem. This now means he can't drink for at least 6 months. If Wildjoker is like most Amn in this situation he will do it anyways. Now Wildjoker is labeled an alcoholic (probably isn't) and has ruined his career with the Article 15 he recieved. All because some Gen. wanted to cover his ass and make sure WildJoker didn't party too hard until day 31.

Yeah, because in the above story Airman WildJoker never made a choice, never took actions from which he should expect advertised consequences to be applied.

If Airman WildJoker is unable to consider the consequences of his actions and make intelligent choices based on those likely consequences, then Airman WildJoker NEEDS this kind of direct, controlling, parental leadership. If Airman WildJoker IS capable of considering the consequences fo his actions and making intelligent choices based on those likely consequences, then the article 15 is a consequence of his choices and actions, NOT just because some General wanted to cover his own ass.

That doesn't keep the rule from being an . . . interesting choice. You can't pretend that adults making choices are free from responsibility of those choices, regardless of the reasonableness of the rules they are informed will be aplied.