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Measure Man
07-01-2014, 09:56 PM
http://www.militarytimes.com/article/20140701/NEWS05/307010065/House-legislation-would-rule-out-atheist-chaplains



A conservative lawmaker is once again looking at ways to blunt any effort to let atheist chaplains join the military, calling it an attack on all religions.


“Faith and spiritual leadership are integral and inseparable from the institution of the chaplain corps,” Fleming said. “It would be difficult for an individual lacking in any faith to be appointed as a military chaplain without first dismantling the purpose of the chaplaincy and making significant changes to [defense] policy.”

Even as one who is "not fortunate enough to be a person of faith"...I don't particularly get the need for a Humanist chaplain...but, I also don't get how having one would be an attack on all religions and dismantling the purpose of the chaplaincy.

Perhaps in the same way that gay marriage threatens non-gay marriage? But, yeah, I don't get that one either

sandsjames
07-01-2014, 10:28 PM
http://www.militarytimes.com/article/20140701/NEWS05/307010065/House-legislation-would-rule-out-atheist-chaplains






Even as one who is "not fortunate enough to be a person of faith"...I don't particularly get the need for a Humanist chaplain...but, I also don't get how having one would be an attack on all religions and dismantling the purpose of the chaplaincy.

Perhaps in the same way that gay marriage threatens non-gay marriage? But, yeah, I don't get that one either

I agree with both points you made. Not sure why they'd want one, not sure why anybody would be against it.

TJMAC77SP
07-01-2014, 11:38 PM
We have discussed this here before and no cogent argument was made for 'humanist' chaplains then either.

As to why anyone would be against it the statement stands by itself. Hyperbole of it being an attack on all religions aside the part about dismantling the purpose of the chaplaincy seems to make sense. I would hardly think a Christian Scientist surgeon would make much sense either. Diametric opposing belief systems it would seem.

There is the unanswered question of why any atheist would want to be a chaplain which by its very definition is a position of faith. Perhaps another agenda? That is the usual and most obvious answer.

There seems to be this growing trend in the country to expand every single group, regardless of it intended makeup and purpose to be 100 percent encompassing of the entire population. Silly stuff really.

garhkal
07-01-2014, 11:53 PM
http://www.militarytimes.com/article/20140701/NEWS05/307010065/House-legislation-would-rule-out-atheist-chaplains






Even as one who is "not fortunate enough to be a person of faith"...I don't particularly get the need for a Humanist chaplain...but, I also don't get how having one would be an attack on all religions and dismantling the purpose of the chaplaincy.

Perhaps in the same way that gay marriage threatens non-gay marriage? But, yeah, I don't get that one either

Neither can i. BUT i would like to know how an Atheist could even BE a Chaplain, since there is no power/religion or doctrine for them to follow..

sandsjames
07-02-2014, 02:02 AM
We have discussed this here before and no cogent argument was made for 'humanist' chaplains then either.

As to why anyone would be against it the statement stands by itself. Hyperbole of it being an attack on all religions aside the part about dismantling the purpose of the chaplaincy seems to make sense. I would hardly think a Christian Scientist surgeon would make much sense either. Diametric opposing belief systems it would seem.

There is the unanswered question of why any atheist would want to be a chaplain which by its very definition is a position of faith. Perhaps another agenda? That is the usual and most obvious answer.

There seems to be this growing trend in the country to expand every single group, regardless of it intended makeup and purpose to be 100 percent encompassing of the entire population. Silly stuff really.


One can be "spiritual" without being religious and who would it possibly hurt? Again, I don't see why anyone would want to do it and I can't see why anyone would be against it.

Rainmaker
07-02-2014, 03:51 AM
http://www.militarytimes.com/article/20140701/NEWS05/307010065/House-legislation-would-rule-out-atheist-chaplains






Even as one who is "not fortunate enough to be a person of faith"...I don't particularly get the need for a Humanist chaplain...but, I also don't get how having one would be an attack on all religions and dismantling the purpose of the chaplaincy.

Perhaps in the same way that gay marriage threatens non-gay marriage? But, yeah, I don't get that one either

We already have atheist chaplains. They're called psychiatrists.

TJMAC77SP
07-02-2014, 04:00 AM
One can be "spiritual" without being religious and who would it possibly hurt? Again, I don't see why anyone would want to do it and I can't see why anyone would be against it.

I will assume you mean spiritual in a idomatic context since the very definition of the word evokes religious or mystical belief systems.

I don't think it would necessarily 'hurt' anyone but it could tend to diminish the whole chaplaincy. Again, the very root purpose of the chaplaincy is to serve military members' spiritual needs. If you don't hold any spiritual beliefs how and why would you seek to serve in an organization whose almost sole purpose is to do so?

I just think it is plain silly and without real merit and think there is a wider, more disingenuous agenda at work.

garhkal
07-02-2014, 07:14 AM
I will assume you mean spiritual in a idomatic context since the very definition of the word evokes religious or mystical belief systems.

I don't think it would necessarily 'hurt' anyone but it could tend to diminish the whole chaplaincy. Again, the very root purpose of the chaplaincy is to serve military members' spiritual needs. If you don't hold any spiritual beliefs how and why would you seek to serve in an organization whose almost sole purpose is to do so?

I just think it is plain silly and without real merit and think there is a wider, more disingenuous agenda at work.

Exactly. Atheists don't believe in anything, so how can they have any "Spiritual" needs?

sandsjames
07-02-2014, 10:23 AM
I will assume you mean spiritual in a idomatic context since the very definition of the word evokes religious or mystical belief systems. That's exactly what I mean...and that's why I put it in quotes.


I don't think it would necessarily 'hurt' anyone but it could tend to diminish the whole chaplaincy. Again, the very root purpose of the chaplaincy is to serve military members' spiritual needs. If you don't hold any spiritual beliefs how and why would you seek to serve in an organization whose almost sole purpose is to do so? What about for the reasons of confidentiality? Maybe someone wants to go talk to someone that is absolutely confidential, but feel uncomfortable with it being a religious leader?


I just think it is plain silly and without real merit and think there is a wider, more disingenuous agenda at work.
There may be but, even if there is, it doesn't affect anything. At all. I would also think they'd be required to have a certain number of people using the chaplain service in order to keep the slot. If he/she wasn't utilized then there would be no reason to keep them around. Other than that, no big deal (unless, of course, the purpose was to "teach" anti-religion).

sandsjames
07-02-2014, 11:22 AM
I guess the biggest issue I have will all of this is that I can't figure out why everyone is AGAINST something. I think that's the biggest difference with politics now and 25-30 years ago. People used to be FOR something. Now it's just telling us why something is wrong, not how to make it right.

An atheist chaplain takes absolutely nothing away from me...it does not affect my "rights" at all. It seems the opposition is that people just don't want other people doing something. I say we worry about how to make things better, not about the things that we think will make things worse.

WILDJOKER5
07-02-2014, 11:26 AM
http://www.militarytimes.com/article/20140701/NEWS05/307010065/House-legislation-would-rule-out-atheist-chaplains






Even as one who is "not fortunate enough to be a person of faith"...I don't particularly get the need for a Humanist chaplain...but, I also don't get how having one would be an attack on all religions and dismantling the purpose of the chaplaincy.

Perhaps in the same way that gay marriage threatens non-gay marriage? But, yeah, I don't get that one either

Well, when ever you are ready to admit that atheism is trying to become a relgion, I bet you can get a better foothold with getting a chaplin in the military. Seems like if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, stop calling yourself a zebra and admit that you are a duck.

WILDJOKER5
07-02-2014, 01:00 PM
One can be "spiritual" without being religious and who would it possibly hurt? Again, I don't see why anyone would want to do it and I can't see why anyone would be against it.

I know why they would want to do it....$$$$$

But really, would an atheist/humanist chaplin fit in with the rest of the chaplin service? What about an invocation from the atheist? I guess a funeral service would work by just focusing on the members life accomplishments, but wouldnt it be like what the wildling said at the end of this seasons Game of Throwns? "Why would we want to say goodbye? The dead cant hear us." Would an atheist chaplin hold any spiritual gatherings on any specific day? Maybe fridays at the pub? But if they are always claiming NOT to be religion, then how can atheist fall under divine privilage or tax exemption for their congrigation? Unless they do something like the NFL and claim to be non-profit I guess.

sandsjames
07-02-2014, 01:36 PM
I know why they would want to do it....$$$$$

But really, would an atheist/humanist chaplin fit in with the rest of the chaplin service? What about an invocation from the atheist? I guess a funeral service would work by just focusing on the members life accomplishments, but wouldnt it be like what the wildling said at the end of this seasons Game of Throwns? "Why would we want to say goodbye? The dead cant hear us." Would an atheist chaplin hold any spiritual gatherings on any specific day? Maybe fridays at the pub? But if they are always claiming NOT to be religion, then how can atheist fall under divine privilage or tax exemption for their congrigation? Unless they do something like the NFL and claim to be non-profit I guess.

And how does any of that hurt you?

WILDJOKER5
07-02-2014, 01:50 PM
And how does any of that hurt you?

It doesnt. I wasnt fighting against it in my post, just making observations. Honestly, if they want a chaplin, then they need to be honest with themselves and call it what it really is, a religion. I also think there should be a chaplin for global warmist or followers of Al Gore. They have as much proof of their beliefs as Christians do in the bible. Both can make claims that their beliefs make the world better, but so many people claim there to be no connection between the beliefs and actual behavior. Christians love the idea of marriage and all the studies show that two parent households are by far the best envioroment to raise kids, but those who hate Christianity dont give credit to Christians with the belief to hold onto marriage till death do you part. I know this was a stretch, but kind of think about it for a sec before replying critisizing me.

Rainmaker
07-02-2014, 01:57 PM
One can be "spiritual" without being religious and who would it possibly hurt? Again, I don't see why anyone would want to do it and I can't see why anyone would be against it.

All the pillars of western society are under attack.

"The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycamores are cut down, but we will change them into cedars."

In 1792, Pierre L'Enfant's "Plan of the Federal City" set aside land for a "great church for national purposes". Washington National Cathedral.


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jun/9/transgendered-priest-give-sermon-washington-nation/

Apparently transgendered freaks mocking God and the values of Christendom is now our "national purpose". Never mind that most of the citizens are disgusted by this deviant behavior.

Apostasy being committed in the Capital city will not end well. God is not mocked.

Measure Man
07-02-2014, 02:56 PM
We have discussed this here before and no cogent argument was made for 'humanist' chaplains then either.

I wouldn't go so far as to say there is no cogent argument for it. I can think of several.

- As mentioned, only a Chaplain has absolute confidentiality
- Counseling on moral issues from someone with a similar belief system...contrary to the uniformed opinions of believers, atheists do have morals and face moral dilemmas like anyone else.
- To discuss life, the universe, and everything


As to why anyone would be against it the statement stands by itself.

Is this one of those cogent arguments?


Hyperbole of it being an attack on all religions aside the part about dismantling the purpose of the chaplaincy seems to make sense. I would hardly think a Christian Scientist surgeon would make much sense either. Diametric opposing belief systems it would seem.

I don't see it as diametrically opposed, either. There are humanist/atheist groups that gather to talk about whatever it is they talk about.


There is the unanswered question of why any atheist would want to be a chaplain which by its very definition is a position of faith.

To help/serve people that share their beliefs?

Atheists still deal with life and death like anybody else...maybe from a different perspective.

If a Christian goes to war and risks their life, he/she believes their soul lives on an they will be rewarded in the after-life.
If an atheist goes to war and risks their life, he/she believes that it is all they have and will ever have.




Perhaps another agenda? That is the usual and most obvious answer.

oh no, not an agenda! I don't think so.


There seems to be this growing trend in the country to expand every single group, regardless of it intended makeup and purpose to be 100 percent encompassing of the entire population. Silly stuff really.

Okay, I'll agree with you there :-)


We already have atheist chaplains. They're called psychiatrists.

Not even close.

If Christians can talk directly to God, why do they need chaplains anyway?


I know why they would want to do it....$$$$$

So, same reason Christian chaplains do it?


But really, would an atheist/humanist chaplin fit in with the rest of the chaplin service?

Like the Muslims and Jews?


What about an invocation from the atheist?

You mean the Christians couldn't just stand and be silent for a few minutes out of respect? I'm still waiting for the day a non-Judeo-Christian religion gets to do the invocation at a official function.




Of course they can't. The funeral is to help those still living grieve. When you go to a funeral do you think the dead person can hear you?

[quote] Would an atheist chaplin hold any spiritual gatherings on any specific day?

I don't know...I think some atheist groups hold meetings...not sure what they talk about.

But, while I was still active duty, the AF came up with the whole "Spiritual Wellness" campaign...in which they specifically said, spirituality was not religion, it was understanding you are part a something larger than yourself. Which I think most atheists get that. If anything, in their quest to heighten spirituality for all AF members, they've made some of the best arguments for a Humanist chaplain.



Maybe fridays at the pub?

You are starting to talk me into this thing, afterall!


But if they are always claiming NOT to be religion, then how can atheist fall under divine privilage or tax exemption for their congrigation? Unless they do something like the NFL and claim to be non-profit I guess.

Right...afterall, Jesus said, "Let us be tax free"

All of that said...I'm not one to go to meetings or read books about atheism or agnosticism....and don't really know of any instance where I'd want to see a chaplain. At least not about personal-type issues...I did go to see a chaplain once to see what he knew about a couple of faith-based schools and camps for my kids. Not that I was looking for a faith thing...but that these orgs had otherwise good educational programs. Never went to see one when I was a Christian either.

Cookie Monster
07-02-2014, 03:07 PM
"Atheism" is not believing in any of the many deities that have been worshipped throughout history. That's it. It's not believing in nothing, it's not a religion, it doesn't make claims, it's not even a proper noun. So if one looks at a chaplain as a religious representative, well then yeah it doesn't make sense to have a humanist/atheist/whatever chaplain. But if a chaplain can be viewed as someone who tends to the spiritual needs of the force, then why on earth would this service be denied to the troops who need it? Shrinks aren't a valid solution because they don't offer the same services & protections as a chaplain.

TJMAC77SP
07-02-2014, 03:14 PM
"Atheism" is not believing in any of the many deities that have been worshipped throughout history. That's it. It's not believing in nothing, it's not a religion, it doesn't make claims, it's not even a proper noun. So if one looks at a chaplain as a religious representative, well then yeah it doesn't make sense to have a humanist/atheist/whatever chaplain. But if a chaplain can be viewed as someone who tends to the spiritual needs of the force, then why on earth would this service be denied to the troops who need it? Shrinks aren't a valid solution because they don't offer the same services & protections as a chaplain.

A word other than spiritual needs to be used in this argument. It flies in the face of the definition of spiritual and seems to contradict the argument.

sandsjames
07-02-2014, 03:18 PM
All the pillars of western society are under attack.

"The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycamores are cut down, but we will change them into cedars."

In 1792, Pierre L'Enfant's "Plan of the Federal City" set aside land for a "great church for national purposes". Washington National Cathedral.


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jun/9/transgendered-priest-give-sermon-washington-nation/

Apparently transgendered freaks mocking God and the values of Christendom is now our "national purpose". Never mind that most of the citizens are disgusted by this deviant behavior.

Apostasy being committed in the Capital city will not end well. God is not mocked.

Damn that freedom of speech.

Now if they decide to tell me they are replacing a Christian Chaplain with an Atheist one, then there would be an issue.

People have been mocking God since the beginning. Luckily, I don't have to answer for those people who are doing it.

sandsjames
07-02-2014, 03:21 PM
A word other than spiritual needs to be used in this argument. It flies in the face of the definition of spiritual and seems to contradict the argument.

I don't think it's so much the word "spiritual" that is the issue. I think it's the definition of Atheist that many "Atheists" are getting wrong. I think it's easy for someone who doesn't believe in a God to still be spiritual. I think someone used the word "Humanist". That works for me. Again, either way I don't care. I don't think there's going to be an influx of people utilizing an Atheist chaplain.

Measure Man
07-02-2014, 03:22 PM
Well, when ever you are ready to admit that atheism is trying to become a relgion, I bet you can get a better foothold with getting a chaplin in the military.

Speaking only for myself...atheism is not a thing that tries to do anything.

I don't know what it means to be a religion or not...nor why it is so important for some atheists to say they are not a religion and why it seems so important for believers to say it is. I guess if we can get some of that tax-free bennies, then why not?

...and again, I don't truly wish to have atheist chaplains...just discussing the idea.


Seems like if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, stop calling yourself a zebra and admit that you are a duck.

I don't understand the disagreement or argument. It seems like you are jealous or something that atheists say it's not a religion...and you want to prove they are just as lowly as the religious? I don't really get it.

I know it's been said that atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby. But, no one reads magazines and wants to talk to other people about not collecting stamps...so, in that case I think you are correct. If these atheists want a chaplain, then they are wanting to becoome more like a religion that has maybe defined belief-sets, etc. I'm not that kind of atheist.

sandsjames
07-02-2014, 03:25 PM
Christians love the idea of marriage and all the studies show that two parent households are by far the best envioroment to raise kids, but those who hate Christianity dont give credit to Christians with the belief to hold onto marriage till death do you part. I know this was a stretch, but kind of think about it for a sec before replying critisizing me.Have you seen the divorce rates of Christians? Pretty sure it's not too far off from everyone else. Also, I don't think you have to be Christian to want a lifetime, monogomous relationship.

Measure Man
07-02-2014, 03:28 PM
Now if they decide to tell me they are replacing a Christian Chaplain with an Atheist one, then there would be an issue.

98% of all chaplains are Christian.

33% of those are considered evangelical Christian.

3% of the military population considers themselves evangelical.

I think we could stand to lose a few.

sandsjames
07-02-2014, 03:29 PM
98% of all chaplains are Christian.

33% of those are considered evangelical Christian.

3% of the military population considers themselves evangelical.

I think we could stand to lose a few.

What I meant was getting rid of them altogether. No issues will filling open slots with someone else.

Basically my point was that if it was an attack on religion, like some are claiming, then there would be a plan/conspiracy somewhere to completely rid bases of Christian Chaplains. I'd say with pretty much certainty that this isn't the case.

TJMAC77SP
07-02-2014, 03:30 PM
I wouldn't go so far as to say there is no cogent argument for it. I can think of several.

- As mentioned, only a Chaplain has absolute confidentiality
- Counseling on moral issues from someone with a similar belief system...contrary to the uniformed opinions of believers, atheists do have morals and face moral dilemmas like anyone else.
- To discuss life, the universe, and everything


And….as has been said many times previously………..doesn’t the mental health profession take care of the non-spiritual moral situations? That, btw is exactly what you have described above.

Mental health professionals have confidentiality, not absolute, but they do have it. Is your argument that atheist chaplains are completely warranted for that one single situation?


Is this one of those cogent arguments?

No, I am not arguing for having atheist chaplains. Wasn’t I clear on that? I still haven’t seen a cogent argument for the change to the military chaplaincy.

It seems the stance being taken here is why not make a change instead of justifying the change. That just makes no sense to me personally. Whenever I hear of an argument being made like this I look for the bigger picture. Hence my comment about trying to put everyone into every group, which apparently you agree with.


I don't see it as diametrically opposed, either. There are humanist/atheist groups that gather to talk about whatever it is they talk about.

What has that got to do with a Christian Scientist surgeon?


To help/serve people that share their beliefs?

Atheists still deal with life and death like anybody else...maybe from a different perspective.

If a Christian goes to war and risks their life, he/she believes their soul lives on an they will be rewarded in the after-life.

If an atheist goes to war and risks their life, he/she believes that it is all they have and will ever have.

I read this and see an argument defeated in by the very words of the statement. Atheism is a complete disbelief in any spiritual aspect to human existence why would you want to create a position which is part of a primarily spiritual organization which cannot possibly serve spiritual needs of people who do not believe they have spiritual needs. You have described mental health issues which, again, there are all kinds of professionals to deal with those situations.

TJMAC77SP
07-02-2014, 03:33 PM
I don't think it's so much the word "spiritual" that is the issue. I think it's the definition of Atheist that many "Atheists" are getting wrong. I think it's easy for someone who doesn't believe in a God to still be spiritual. I think someone used the word "Humanist". That works for me. Again, either way I don't care. I don't think there's going to be an influx of people utilizing an Atheist chaplain.

What many people really are describing here when using the term spiritual is mental health, mental well being, whatever term works.

Unfortunately that would sink any argument with relation to any discussion of the military chaplaincy so they use spiritual which in this case I think it more intellectually honest to avoid using unless being used in accordance with its strict defintion

Measure Man
07-02-2014, 03:40 PM
And….as has been said many times previously………..doesn’t the mental health profession take care of the non-spiritual moral situations? That, btw is exactly what you have described above.

Nonsense, complete and utter nonsense. You don't go see a psychiatrist for a moral dilemma. You go see a psychiatrist for mental health issues. A psychiatrist is a medical doctor.


Mental health professionals have confidentiality, not absolute, but they do have it. Is your argument that atheist chaplains are completely warranted for that one single situation?


Not exactly. I guess I don't really see any chaplain as completely warranted. But, whatever the word should be "spiritual" or otherwise...I think atheists have the same needs as believers...which are really just human needs.


No, I am not arguing for having atheist chaplains. Wasn’t I clear on that? I still haven’t seen a cogent argument for the change to the military chaplaincy.

I'm trying to say you haven't made a cogent argument against it, either. Although, it seems like now you are admitting there is a cogent argument for it, it's just not enough.


It seems the stance being taken here is why not make a change instead of justifying the change. That just makes no sense to me personally. Whenever I hear of an argument being made like this I look for the bigger picture. Hence my comment about trying to put everyone into every group, which apparently you agree with.

Yes.



What has that got to do with a Christian Scientist surgeon?

You brought that up...to illustrate that a Christian Scientist surgeon is diametrically opposed. I don't think having a chaplain is diametrically opposed to being an atheist in the same way. It is not a basic tenet of atheism that we should NOT discuss spiritual ideas, consult with others for "spiritual" counseling, etc. Again, don't hang up on the word spiritual...


I read this and see an argument defeated in by the very words of the statement. Atheism is a complete disbelief in any spiritual aspect to human existence why would you want to create a position which is part of a primarily spiritual organization which cannot possibly serve spiritual needs of people who do not believe they have spiritual needs. You have described mental health issues which, again, there are all kinds of professionals to deal with those situations.

No. Go make an appointment at the mental health clinic and tell them you want to talk about these things, they will likely refer you to a chaplain. No psychiatrist is going to guide you in moral issues, the meaning of life and death, etc.

sandsjames
07-02-2014, 04:17 PM
I'm really curious as to what people are concerned will happen if this takes place. Nobody has yet said what they think the negative impact will be.

TJMAC77SP
07-02-2014, 05:51 PM
Nonsense, complete and utter nonsense. You don't go see a psychiatrist for a moral dilemma. You go see a psychiatrist for mental health issues. A psychiatrist is a medical doctor.

Well, if psychiatrists were the only mental health professionals I may see your point but they are not so, no it isn’t nonsense. My sister is a licensed social worker and runs a PTSD program (well, part of the overall PTSD program) at a USMC base. I think she would tell you that not only is she a mental health professional (as does the state) but that she also deals with the moral issues of the Marines she sees. They don’t discuss spirituality at all.


Not exactly. I guess I don't really see any chaplain as completely warranted. But, whatever the word should be "spiritual" or otherwise...I think atheists have the same needs as believers...which are really just human needs.

I agree with you that everyone has human needs but the rest just doesn’t make sense. I understand that as you stated you just want to have the discussion and I get that but it isn’t making sense.



I'm trying to say you haven't made a cogent argument against it, either. Although, it seems like now you are admitting there is a cogent argument for it, it's just not enough.

Actually I have made a cogent argument, you just don’t agree and if you are claiming that the simple fact of confidentiality is enough of a cogent argument in favor of atheist chaplains (which btw I chuckle every time I type that term) then you are helping me make my cogent argument.




You brought that up...to illustrate that a Christian Scientist surgeon is diametrically opposed. I don't think having a chaplain is diametrically opposed to being an atheist in the same way. It is not a basic tenet of atheism that we should NOT discuss spiritual ideas, consult with others for "spiritual" counseling, etc. Again, don't hang up on the word spiritual...

Yes, actually it would be a basic tenant of atheism to reject all aspects of spirituality. This is why I continually state that I have met very few true atheists. I have met many people who claim to be but they really aren’t. Particularly if they think they have spiritual issues. I am not ‘hung up’ on the word spirituality, I am adhering to its basic definition, not using it to assist with a flawed argument.



No. Go make an appointment at the mental health clinic and tell them you want to talk about these things, they will likely refer you to a chaplain. No psychiatrist is going to guide you in moral issues, the meaning of life and death, etc.

They probably would………because chaplains are available. Tell them that you are an atheist and don’t want to see a chaplain and you will see a mental health provider. Again, not necessarily a psychiatrist. Don’t get hung up on psychiatrist.

TJMAC77SP
07-02-2014, 05:53 PM
I'm really curious as to what people are concerned will happen if this takes place. Nobody has yet said what they think the negative impact will be.

Real wrath of God type stuff. Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling! Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes. The dead rising from the grave! Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

Rainmaker
07-02-2014, 06:07 PM
I'm really curious as to what people are concerned will happen if this takes place. Nobody has yet said what they think the negative impact will be.

what's the positive impact again?

Measure Man
07-02-2014, 06:30 PM
Well, if psychiatrists were the only mental health professionals I may see your point but they are not so, no it isn’t nonsense.

Okay...I think the initial mention was of psychiatrists, so I was focused on that.


My sister is a licensed social worker and runs a PTSD program (well, part of the overall PTSD program) at a USMC base. I think she would tell you that not only is she a mental health professional (as does the state) but that she also deals with the moral issues of the Marines she sees.

I would be curious with her take on that. Does she actually try to provide moral guidance, or rather help the patient sort through their mental health issues to arrive at their moral decision...


They don’t discuss spirituality at all.

I don't have a firm grasp on the meaning of spirtuality. As I mentioned, I had questions about this when the AF came up with the whole Comprehensive Heatlth thing...which IIRC had four components to overall health: physical, social, spiritual, and mental.

Spiritual, being defined by AF at least, involved believing you are part of something larger than yourself. Which certainly applies to many, if not most atheists. I mean we believe in the country, in its mission, we believe in our personal legacy, and impact on the world, and making it a better place, etc.

It would seem to me it is a great deal easier for a believer to sacrifice their life for the country....believing they will be rewarded in heaven and reunited with their loved ones for all eternity.


I agree with you that everyone has human needs but the rest just doesn’t make sense. I understand that as you stated you just want to have the discussion and I get that but it isn’t making sense.

Actually I have made a cogent argument, you just don’t agree and if you are claiming that the simple fact of confidentiality is enough of a cogent argument in favor of atheist chaplains (which btw I chuckle every time I type that term) then you are helping me make my cogent argument.

Your cogent argument was "it stands on its own"?

I would say the condentiality is an argument FOR atheist chaplains...I did not suggest it is enough to stand on its own as a full and complete justification to have them...it is one point, just as it is one point for religious chaplains. Why is it so important for religous converstations to remain confidential, but not non-religious ones?

A further point, is the Chaplain Corps likes to say "Chaplain for all, Minister for some"...or something like that...meaning a Chaplain can counsel with and meet the needs of others outside their religion. If this is true, then why is the religion, or lack thereof, important? An atheist chaplain can understand and counsel within the context of the counselees religion just as well...and from the description of the individual in the article it sounds have he would have been very qualified to do so.


Yes, actually it would be a basic tenant of atheism to reject all aspects of spirituality.

So, you think someone can not be spiritual without believe in God? What if one believes in some type of thing out there, but not a personal congnizant god? I ponder on this sometimes...still not exactly sure what it means.


This is why I continually state that I have met very few true atheists. I have met many people who claim to be but they really aren’t. Particularly if they think they have spiritual issues. I am not ‘hung up’ on the word spirituality, I am adhering to its basic definition, not using it to assist with a flawed argument.

Agnostic might be a better word...who knows.

I often compare my lack of belief to the move "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon." The movie got great reviews, so I was excited to see it...but within the first scene or so, when martial arts apparently allows people to fly from rooftop to rooftop, and break the world high-jump record with a flick of their ankle...my inability to suspend disbelief or whatever, ruined that movie...it needs to be at least a little realistic to make the move enjoyable. Try as I might, I couldn't enjoy the movie.

Similarly...try as I might have to believe in God and Jesus and all that...and making I'd say a far greater committment to it at one point in my life than mnost people...at the end of the day, I realied I couldn't believe it.


They probably would………because chaplains are available. Tell them that you are an atheist and don’t want to see a chaplain and you will see a mental health provider. Again, not necessarily a psychiatrist. Don’t get hung up on psychiatrist.

I would interested in hearing from a real mental health provider on this....to my knowledge they are concerned with diagnosing and treating mental illness, or mental health issues, not providing moral guidance.

I suppose there are those therapists out there that rich people talk to about their problems...but, I don't know that the AF provides anything like that.

sandsjames
07-02-2014, 06:36 PM
what's the positive impact again?I have no idea. As I stated, I don't understand why anyone would want it, but I can't understand why anyone would be against it. Maybe the positive is that it gives someone somebody to talk to in a situation where they want confidence but don't want it to be a religious entity. Just a guess, but I can't even take a guess at what a negative impact would be.

Measure Man
07-02-2014, 06:45 PM
What many people really are describing here when using the term spiritual is mental health, mental well being, whatever term works.

Unfortunately that would sink any argument with relation to any discussion of the military chaplaincy so they use spiritual which in this case I think it more intellectually honest to avoid using unless being used in accordance with its strict defintion

No, i disagree.

I think spiritual is the sense of being a member of the larger community, your personal legacy, how you will be remembered, whether your life was worth living, whether you made it worthwhile, that it mattered whether or not you were here....the parts of your deceased parent that still exist within you (not in a physical sense, but in the lesson, and outlook of life, etc) allow them to live on...

...these might be conisidered spiritual questions, but are not mental health related. I don't think a mental health professional of any sort is going to help you with these too much...except maybe to help you sort out your own feelings about them.

If you think spirituality only means issues dealing with your everlasting soul...then I might agree with you...but then wouldn't know the word to describe those other questions, except to know they are not mental health questions.

Rainmaker
07-02-2014, 06:55 PM
I have no idea. As I stated, I don't understand why anyone would want it, but I can't understand why anyone would be against it. Maybe the positive is that it gives someone somebody to talk to in a situation where they want confidence but don't want it to be a religious entity. Just a guess, but I can't even take a guess at what a negative impact would be.

They've already gottem. Shrinks and Lawyers.

This is just more pandering to the whiners and victims by the diversity cult, that see the military's main purpose as advancing social progress instead of winning wars.

Everything that has been foisted upon the military by these deviants is being done with a purpose: To further separate the military from its historical recruiting base. Who in their right mind wants to send their sons off to risk getting killed serving in an organization that constantly promotes this type of garbage?

sandsjames
07-02-2014, 07:19 PM
They've already gottem. Shrinks and Lawyers. Ok, get rid of base chaplains. Every community has a Church. At most, there could be one in deployed locations.


This is just more pandering to the whiners and victims by the diversity cult, that see the military's main purpose as advancing social progress instead of winning wars. So if it's about winning wars then why do you care what they do with the Chaplain Corp?


Everything that has been foisted upon the military by these deviants is being done with a purpose: To further separate the military from its historical recruiting base. Who in their right mind wants to send their sons off to risk getting killed serving in an organization that constantly promotes this type of garbage?

The more I listen to a couple people talk on this site, the more I see the point many liberals make about the Christian right. It's embarrassing, a little bit, to hear this kind of stuff. The complaints aren't about an "Atheist Chaplain". They are about nothing more than making it seem like everyone is out to get us.

As a Christian, let me say this. What others do, how they believe, what laws they institute, etc, does not affect me or my beliefs. Conservatives say the left has a war on Christianity. I'm coming to learn that, on the flip side, the Christian right has a war on anything they feel "threatens" their faith. All I know is that if this sort of thing threatens you then your faith must be pretty misguided.

Measure Man
07-02-2014, 07:22 PM
They've already gottem. Shrinks and Lawyers.

Believers also have shrinks and lawyers...what is it the believer needs a chaplain for that shrinks and lawyers can not do? Are chaplains really just about the after-life, or do they have a purpose in this life?


This is just more pandering to the whiners and victims by the diversity cult, that see the military's main purpose as advancing social progress instead of winning wars.

Everything that has been foisted upon the military by these deviants is being done with a purpose: To further separate the military from its historical recruiting base. Who in their right mind wants to send their sons off to risk getting killed serving in an organization that constantly promotes this type of garbage?

What Sandjames said.

TJMAC77SP
07-02-2014, 07:27 PM
Ok, get rid of base chaplains. Every community has a Church. At most, there could be one in deployed locations.

So if it's about winning wars then why do you care what they do with the Chaplain Corp?



The more I listen to a couple people talk on this site, the more I see the point many liberals make about the Christian right. It's embarrassing, a little bit, to hear this kind of stuff. The complaints aren't about an "Atheist Chaplain". They are about nothing more than making it seem like everyone is out to get us.

As a Christian, let me say this. What others do, how they believe, what laws they institute, etc, does not affect me or my beliefs. Conservatives say the left has a war on Christianity. I'm coming to learn that, on the flip side, the Christian right has a war on anything they feel "threatens" their faith. All I know is that if this sort of thing threatens you then your faith must be pretty misguided.

You have to leave the hyperbole aside and recognize this effort for it's base truth. There is no real wish to provide for something lacking by the absense of 'athiest chaplains'. It is much akin to what I said earlier........the desire to make every group in the country all inclusive regardless of the complete lack of logic in the arguments presented.

You choose to ask why not when I see the logical question(s) to be Why?.....and What is the real reason (for the request)?

Measure Man
07-02-2014, 07:27 PM
Ok, get rid of base chaplains. Every community has a Church. At most, there could be one in deployed locations.

Honestly, this is something I think DOD could actually do.

I think it is obvious that any service member can get their spiritual needs met off-base while at home station...heck, right outside the gate at Langley there are like 12 different churches within one block. Overseas bases, same thing...no shortage of churches in MOST countries.

The argument then becomes about the need to have them in combat zones, or in those countries that are hostile to certain religions...and I'm willing to $100 that if the military deleted chaplains...but, merely provided the various churches with the opportunity to embed a minister with the troops, they would do it. They could raise money for their military overseas missionary program and send them...just like the send missionaries everywhere else.

We embed reporters, why not ministers?

I don't think it will ever happen...but I think it would be pretty easy to do. Of course, this would be reported as some kind of attack by Obama to convert the military to Islam or something...

TJMAC77SP
07-02-2014, 07:31 PM
Honestly, this is something I think DOD could actually do.

I think it is obvious that any service member can get their spiritual needs met off-base while at home station...heck, right outside the gate at Langley there are like 12 different churches within one block.

The argument then becomes about the need to have them in combat zones...and I'm willing to $100 that if the military deleted chaplains...but, merely provided the various churches with the opportunity to embed a minister with the troops, they would do it. They could raise money for their military overseas missionary program and send them...just like the send missionaries everywhere else.

We embed reporters, why not ministers?

I don't think it will ever happen...but I think it would be pretty easy to do. Of course, this would be reported as some kind of attack by Obama to convert the military to Islam or something...

This actually makes sense upon first read. I thought at first you were going to advocate elimination of the Chaplain Corps and leave it at that.

I think chaplains do fill a need in combat zones but 'embedded chaplains' seems a viable solution.

I agree also that it will probably not happen. Tradition is pretty strong and hard to overcome.

I think also that we may be slighting military chaplains. I have found a good many of them (regardless of faith) to be willing to listen and understand the often unique situation of military service. That might be harder to find outside the main gate. I don't know.

sandsjames
07-02-2014, 07:33 PM
You have to leave the hyperbole aside and recognize this effort for it's base truth. There is no real wish to provide for something lacking by the absense of 'athiest chaplains'. It is much akin to what I said earlier........the desire to make every group in the country all inclusive regardless of the complete lack of logic in the arguments presented.

You choose to ask why not when I see the logical question(s) to be Why?.....and What is the real reason?

I don't think it matters why. I really don't. Maybe if they start removing traditional Chaplains, banning churches, etc, then it becomes an issue.

I just cannot see what the problem is. I think people are confusing the purpose. An Atheist Chaplain would not be an anti-religion Chaplain, they would be a non-religion Chaplain. Big difference.

sandsjames
07-02-2014, 07:36 PM
I think also that we may be slighting military chaplains. I have found a good many of them (regardless of faith) to be willing to listen and understand the often unique situation of military service. That might be harder to find outside the main gate. I don't know.Exactly...so why not have something like that for non-religious people as well? Somebody other than mental health who they can talk to without it being a religious figure?

Measure Man
07-02-2014, 07:47 PM
I think also that we may be slighting military chaplains. I have found a good many of them (regardless of faith) to be willing to listen and understand the often unique situation of military service. That might be harder to find outside the main gate. I don't know.

Might be harder to find randomly...but if it became a specific ministry for the churches, they would educate and train for it, just like the military does. Perhaps use veterans, or train non-veterans...they train missionaries for all kinds of specific situations...foreign languages and customs, needs, etc.

garhkal
07-02-2014, 08:23 PM
I guess the biggest issue I have will all of this is that I can't figure out why everyone is AGAINST something. I think that's the biggest difference with politics now and 25-30 years ago. People used to be FOR something. Now it's just telling us why something is wrong, not how to make it right.

An atheist chaplain takes absolutely nothing away from me...it does not affect my "rights" at all. It seems the opposition is that people just don't want other people doing something. I say we worry about how to make things better, not about the things that we think will make things worse.

Doesn't it? IS it not watering down what a Chaplain means, to have an Atheist one, someone who represents not just no religion, but ANTI religion?
Plus, just cause something does not immediately cause physical/social harm to me (how does it hurt you), does NOT mean that someone can't be against it with merit.



But really, would an atheist/humanist chaplin fit in with the rest of the chaplin service? What about an invocation from the atheist? I guess a funeral service would work by just focusing on the members life accomplishments. Would an atheist chaplin hold any spiritual gatherings on any specific day? Maybe fridays at the pub? But if they are always claiming NOT to be religion, then how can atheist fall under divine privilage or tax exemption for their congrigation? Unless they do something like the NFL and claim to be non-profit I guess.

Those are some good questions. Part n parcel of being a chaplain is to hold invocations over religious services.. such as marriages, funerals, sunday observances etc. What exactly is an Atheist chaplain going to hold for observances? When? Since they are not a religion (in fact they are anti religion) are they going to hold any 'days of observances'?


"Atheism" is not believing in any of the many deities that have been worshipped throughout history. That's it. It's not believing in nothing, it's not a religion, it doesn't make claims, it's not even a proper noun.

While that is how some dictionaries define atheism, it sounds more like agnostics to me.


Honestly, this is something I think DOD could actually do.
..snip..

We embed reporters, why not ministers?

I don't think it will ever happen...but I think it would be pretty easy to do. Of course, this would be reported as some kind of attack by Obama to convert the military to Islam or something...

NOW that is a very good idea.

sandsjames
07-02-2014, 08:29 PM
Doesn't it? IS it not watering down what a Chaplain means, to have an Atheist one, someone who represents not just no religion, but ANTI religion?
Plus, just cause something does not immediately cause physical/social harm to me (how does it hurt you), does NOT mean that someone can't be against it with merit.


Not anti-religion. Misconception. Atheist just does not believe in a God. They aren't against religion... Saying an Atheist is going to preach AGAINST God/religion is like saying that Christian minister is going to preach against gays. It's just not true. It's only true of those who are using the position for a political platform, which shouldn't happen.

Stalwart
07-02-2014, 08:38 PM
Not anti-religion. Misconception. Atheist just does not believe in a God. They aren't against religion... Saying an Atheist is going to preach AGAINST God/religion is like saying that Christian minister is going to preach against gays. It's just not true. It's only true of those who are using the position for a political platform, which shouldn't happen.

Yes and no. I have known a fair number of 'militant' atheists, but I have also known a fair number of 'militant' religious folks too. Both were very willing to try to convince anyone in earshot of their beliefs. Common to both is that if you don't think the same as they do you are just ignorant (and if a believer were misguided as a child, if an atheist you are likely in denial.) I don't think either is the majority ... but I have known both.

Many people say they are tolerant or accepting of different ideas ... even that seems to sound like you are making an accommodation for someone who doesn't think the same way you do.

Switch the a word here and there and you can really come of as a jerk:

"I am tolerant of people who believe in religion" / "I am tolerant of people who believe in equal rights"
"I am accepting of people with different religious beliefs" / "I am accepting of Italians."

IMO: If you don't think as I do, and aren't advocating to harm me or my family, break the law ... who am I to offer you acceptance ... I can like you, be friends and get along with you whatever you think or believe ... or don't.

Measure Man
07-02-2014, 08:50 PM
Yes and no. I have known a fair number of 'militant' atheists, but I have also known a fair number of 'militant' religious folks too. Both were very willing to try to convince anyone in earshot of their beliefs. Common to both is that if you don't think the same as they do you are just ignorant (and if a believer were misguided as a child, if an atheist you are likely in denial.) I don't think either is the majority ... but I have known both.

I was reading some article or other the other day that had to do with religion or atheism. Anything like this always has a pretty fun time in the comments section.

I readily admit that many atheists present themselves as some type of pseudo-scientific-intellectual, with the now very tired refain, "...not one piece of emipirical evidence, yada yada"...when we all know damn well the commenter is no scientist and believes many things without having examined the scientific data.

One comment struck me as odd from a believer, "Atheism is a mental illness"...obviously adopting the popular "Liberalism is a mental illness" bumper sticker...but, of course, it takes on a different meaning when talking faith.

Unfortunately, comments don't lend themselves to discussion like this forum might...but to Christians who might comment this way....or "argue" "debate", etc. about faith in general.

Are you not saved by grace, not of your own doing? How then can you criticize someone who was simply not granted the same grace? It seems they act as if they present having arrived at their faith either by their own obedience, their own intellect, or being a "better" something...and that non-believers have failed in some way...but, does this not contradict the saved by grace doctrine?

Many are called, but few are chosen. Does this not imply that some are not even called, and many are not chosen, through no fault of their own?

Also why I like the phrase I used in the OP, "...not fortunate enough to be a person of faith"...which I think sends this same message. That quote I first heard from Karl Rove...not sure if he got it someplace else. But, yes, one of the leading GOP stategists is an atheist.

EDIT: I may have been hasty in proclaiming Rove an atheist...he claims christianity, but not a very strong faith: http://www.speroforum.com/a/49285/Karl-Rove-refutes-atheist-Christopher-Hitchens-claims


Many people say they are tolerant or accepting of different ideas ... even that seems to sound like you are making an accommodation for someone who doesn't think the same way you do.

Switch the a word here and there and you can really come of as a jerk:

"I am tolerant of people who believe in religion" / "I am tolerant of people who believe in equal rights"
"I am accepting of people with different religious beliefs" / "I am accepting of Italians."

Yes, it does sound condescending.


IMO: If you don't think as I do, and aren't advocating to harm me or my family, break the law ... who am I to offer you acceptance ... I can like you, be friends and get along with you whatever you think or believe ... or don't.

I'm following...

Rainmaker
07-02-2014, 09:47 PM
You have to leave the hyperbole aside and recognize this effort for it's base truth. There is no real wish to provide for something lacking by the absense of 'athiest chaplains'. It is much akin to what I said earlier........the desire to make every group in the country all inclusive regardless of the complete lack of logic in the arguments presented.

You choose to ask why not when I see the logical question(s) to be Why?.....and What is the real reason (for the request)?

They won't and can't because they don't agree with it.

Rainmaker
07-02-2014, 10:00 PM
Ok, get rid of base chaplains. Every community has a Church. At most, there could be one in deployed locations.

So if it's about winning wars then why do you care what they do with the Chaplain Corp?



The more I listen to a couple people talk on this site, the more I see the point many liberals make about the Christian right. It's embarrassing, a little bit, to hear this kind of stuff. The complaints aren't about an "Atheist Chaplain". They are about nothing more than making it seem like everyone is out to get us.

As a Christian, let me say this. What others do, how they believe, what laws they institute, etc, does not affect me or my beliefs. Conservatives say the left has a war on Christianity. I'm coming to learn that, on the flip side, the Christian right has a war on anything they feel "threatens" their faith. All I know is that if this sort of thing threatens you then your faith must be pretty misguided.

Rainmaker has never personally sought counseling from a chaplain, and hasn't stepped foot in a church service since 1996. However, in 23 years on active duty including 11 deployments, and 6 to Iraq and Afghanistan, I've personally seen the benefit the chaplain corps has provided to many others. In a nutshell. It ain't broke. it don't need fixing and all this whining is most definitely politically motivated. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt Bitches. Don't believe in God. Great for you. Don't go to church and quit your bitching. What's next for you idiots? Homo Necrophiliacs administering last rights on the battlefield? You guys are fucking insane. OUT.

garhkal
07-02-2014, 10:17 PM
Not anti-religion. Misconception. Atheist just does not believe in a God. They aren't against religion... Saying an Atheist is going to preach AGAINST God/religion is like saying that Christian minister is going to preach against gays. It's just not true. It's only true of those who are using the position for a political platform, which shouldn't happen.

Based on my experience, i see it the other way. Most of those i know who class themselves as Atheist are more towards the militant camp, wanting any aspect of religion (well Christianity/Baptist/Catholics etc) removed from society (though its rare you ever hear of any atheists going after Islam, Shintoism, Buddhism etc.

Measure Man
07-02-2014, 10:26 PM
Based on my experience, i see it the other way. Most of those i know who class themselves as Atheist are more towards the militant camp, wanting any aspect of religion (well Christianity/Baptist/Catholics etc) removed from society

I think you have confused society with government.


(though its rare you ever hear of any atheists going after Islam, Shintoism, Buddhism etc.

...because it is rare, in the U.S. for those to be officially represented by government.

I suspect, at some point in the next 20 years or so, that there will be a small to medium sized city in the U.S. that has a majority Muslim population...who, by majority vote, will want thier city government to exercise the same type of "religious freedom" that Christians fight for now...and the Christians will NOT like that one bit.

i.e. display Koran verses in legislature and court house...Islamic prayer before city council meetings and in the schools.

sandsjames
07-02-2014, 10:43 PM
Rainmaker has never personally sought counseling from a chaplain, and hasn't stepped foot in a church service since 1996. However, in 23 years on active duty including 11 deployments, and 6 to Iraq and Afghanistan, I've personally seen the benefit the chaplain corps has provided to many others. In a nutshell. It ain't broke. it don't need fixing and all this whining is most definitely politically motivated. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt Bitches. Don't believe in God. Great for you. Don't go to church and quit your bitching. What's next for you idiots? Homo Necrophiliacs administering last rights on the battlefield? You guys are fucking insane. OUT.

Embarrassing.

sandsjames
07-02-2014, 10:44 PM
Based on my experience, i see it the other way. Most of those i know who class themselves as Atheist are more towards the militant camp, wanting any aspect of religion (well Christianity/Baptist/Catholics etc) removed from society (though its rare you ever hear of any atheists going after Islam, Shintoism, Buddhism etc.

Of course those are the ones you know. Just like the American tourists you notice walking around London, the only ones you hear are the loud ones who embarrass the rest of us. While the other 95% go unnoticed because they don't bother anyone. Same goes for every religion.

Rainmaker
07-03-2014, 02:14 AM
Embarrassing.

Yes, I get it. you're so enlightened debating Atheist Chaplains and all. The whole idea is preposterous. Get a grip moron.

hy·per·bo·le
hīˈpərbəlē/
noun
noun: hyperbole; plural noun: hyperboles

exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
synonyms: exaggeration, overstatement, magnification, embroidery, embellishment, excess, overkill, rhetoric;
informalpurple prose, puffery
"the media hyperbole that accompanied their championship series"

garhkal
07-03-2014, 04:49 AM
Of course those are the ones you know. Just like the American tourists you notice walking around London, the only ones you hear are the loud ones who embarrass the rest of us. While the other 95% go unnoticed because they don't bother anyone. Same goes for every religion.

Hence why i prefaced it with "By my experience".. I know there are those out there who are not so vocal, or so militant. But i have not seen that many.

sandsjames
07-03-2014, 10:20 AM
Hence why i prefaced it with "By my experience".. I know there are those out there who are not so vocal, or so militant. But i have not seen that many.

Right, you wouldn't...I've never seen any news reports about people who don't rob banks.

WILDJOKER5
07-03-2014, 11:10 AM
So, same reason Christian chaplains do it?Some may very well do it for the $$$$. But there is others who feel their service with men and women who are deployed.


Like the Muslims and Jews? They hold services under their religious doctrines.


You mean the Christians couldn't just stand and be silent for a few minutes out of respect? I'm still waiting for the day a non-Judeo-Christian religion gets to do the invocation at a official function.I've heard one of those before. I think he was a "Force" chaplin. And the end he ended it with "Let the force be with you."



I guess a funeral service would work by just focusing on the members life accomplishments, but wouldnt it be like what the wildling said at the end of this seasons Game of Throwns? "Why would we want to say goodbye? The dead cant hear us."

Of course they can't. The funeral is to help those still living grieve. When you go to a funeral do you think the dead person can hear you?In the spiritual realm. Being able to say "goodbye" is a process of letting the dead hear you one more time from their spiritual body in Christian Dogma.


I don't know...I think some atheist groups hold meetings...not sure what they talk about.

But, while I was still active duty, the AF came up with the whole "Spiritual Wellness" campaign...in which they specifically said, spirituality was not religion, it was understanding you are part a something larger than yourself. Which I think most atheists get that. If anything, in their quest to heighten spirituality for all AF members, they've made some of the best arguments for a Humanist chaplain.
I dont understand that thought of being part of something bigger than ourselves unless it was part of spiritual realm. I dont understand how someone that believes in only physical realm could sense a spiritual realm. And yes, I agree with calling it "spiritual" over religionous.


You are starting to talk me into this thing, afterall!Each city of atheist can meet up at the pub or buffalo wild wings to watch their local sports teams play. Oh, and maybe they can be like "Chive nation" with just groups meetings through FB?


Right...afterall, Jesus said, "Let us be tax free"Well, kind of the opposite but really, I get your gest.


All of that said...I'm not one to go to meetings or read books about atheism or agnosticism....and don't really know of any instance where I'd want to see a chaplain. At least not about personal-type issues...I did go to see a chaplain once to see what he knew about a couple of faith-based schools and camps for my kids. Not that I was looking for a faith thing...but that these orgs had otherwise good educational programs. Never went to see one when I was a Christian either.

Yeah, they cant perscribe the good drugs either.

WILDJOKER5
07-03-2014, 11:20 AM
Have you seen the divorce rates of Christians? Pretty sure it's not too far off from everyone else. Also, I don't think you have to be Christian to want a lifetime, monogomous relationship.

Yes, and I agree. I am one of those stats. IF you are a Christian and follow the doctrine, marriage is a very difficult pledge to break. I would say in this world, marriage is one of the hardest tenants of Christian (or other faiths) philosophy to hold onto. Under Christianity, divorce is really only allowed under the eyes of God IF there is cheating. And I mean divorce as in to where the one cheated on is allowed to be remarried without it being thought of as a sin. We really dont put much emphisis on sins anymore in our society....unless its the sin of being non-PC as MM will tell you is the only time someone gets a public shaming for their precieved wrong.

And I also only said "love the idea", I didnt say they were hold fast to the concept.

sandsjames
07-03-2014, 11:22 AM
In the spiritual realm. Being able to say "goodbye" is a process of letting the dead hear you one more time from their spiritual body in Christian Dogma.?????What?????Can't say I've ever heard this one before. Actually, just the opposite. Once the person is dead the spirit isn't "lingering" around anymore.

WILDJOKER5
07-03-2014, 11:28 AM
?????What?????Can't say I've ever heard this one before. Actually, just the opposite. Once the person is dead the spirit isn't "lingering" around anymore.

Well, I guess I dont have the full grasp on Catholic purgatory then.

sandsjames
07-03-2014, 12:30 PM
Well, I guess I dont have the full grasp on Catholic purgatory then.

Oh...you were talking Catholosism...I thought for sure you were talking about Christians who believed that the way to God was through Jesus, not through an elected official. My bad.

WILDJOKER5
07-03-2014, 12:42 PM
Oh...you were talking Catholosism...I thought for sure you were talking about Christians who believed that the way to God was through Jesus, not through an elected official. My bad.

A lot of traditions of prodestant Christianity follow Catholosim, which someone will point out follows another relgion. But the thought was that the dead could hear us in the after life and thats why we have euligies.

Measure Man
07-03-2014, 08:39 PM
Some may very well do it for the $$$$. But there is others who feel their service with men and women who are deployed.

I agree. My point was that this is no different than why an atheist might do it.


They hold services under their religious doctrines.

So?


I've heard one of those before. I think he was a "Force" chaplin. And the end he ended it with "Let the force be with you."

A "force" chaplain? What? No way!


In the spiritual realm. Being able to say "goodbye" is a process of letting the dead hear you one more time from their spiritual body in Christian Dogma.

"...
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee. "

~ John Donne



I dont understand that thought of being part of something bigger than ourselves unless it was part of spiritual realm.

Do you care about your legacy here on earth after you are gone?

do you care if you make the world better while you were here...or is your only concern getting into heaven?


I dont understand how someone that believes in only physical realm could sense a spiritual realm. And yes, I agree with calling it "spiritual" over religionous.

Each city of atheist can meet up at the pub or buffalo wild wings to watch their local sports teams play. Oh, and maybe they can be like "Chive nation" with just groups meetings through FB?

No argument on the meeting


Well, kind of the opposite but really, I get your gest.

Precisely.


Yeah, they cant perscribe the good drugs either.

Stalwart
07-03-2014, 11:51 PM
I have found a good many of them (regardless of faith) to be willing to listen and understand the often unique situation of military service. That might be harder to find outside the main gate. I don't know.

I have also had very positive impressions of the Chaplains I have known over the years.

One aspect of this I can see is after atheist chaplains were approved, trained and assessed into service, a militant atheist does not have access to one because of the numbers, member is at a small base etc. The service member files a complaint to the IG or their member of Congress because he/she refuses to talk to the available chaplain.

I have seen this before, where an atheist had some real issues did not want to talk to the chaplain because the chaplain would (in his opinion) only present a religious point of view so he wanted to talk to a civilian counselor … despite most chaplains also being well trained in counseling. I suspect the Sailor was trying to get a flight off the ship and into Bahrain for a few days away from the ship … but who knows. I have also seen a Christian religious member who refused to speak to an ordained chaplain because the chaplain was not of his particular religion and he raised all kinds of hell to include repeated letters to his member of Congress because there was not a particular type of chaplain available to him.

I am LDS and in almost 24 years have met exactly one LDS chaplain … I don’t have an issue with talking to a Catholic priest, a Buddhist or Muslim chaplain … nor would I have issue with talking to an Atheist chaplain in their role as a counselor. For the purposes of spiritual or religious advice specific to my faith I need to find someone of my faith, but chaplains can assist military members in a variety of ways not specific to the type of book you read at your place of worship. This thinking only perpetuates the insular mindset that I can only talk to or receive help, guidance and mentorship from someone who thinks exactly as I do.

WILDJOKER5
07-07-2014, 11:08 AM
I agree. My point was that this is no different than why an atheist might do it.Because that is solely an atheist motivation to become a chaplin?


So?Is there an atheist religious doctrine?


A "force" chaplain? What? No way!Its was unique by far, and we all kind of snickered when he said it. But no one made a fuss.


Do you care about your legacy here on earth after you are gone?Nope, cause in the end, "dust to dust".


do you care if you make the world better while you were here...or is your only concern getting into heaven?All I am to called to do is to leave the world being the best I can be. But I can't change other people's minds through force or bible thumping them.