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Chief_KO
06-20-2014, 11:15 PM
So, I see the Commander of Seventh Air Force has banned alcohol (sale & consumption) at Osan this weekend...

Does this type of policy (knee jerk reaction) ever work???

raider8169
06-20-2014, 11:55 PM
Yes and No. When I was there it was like that for a while but typically they do it before exercises. Not sure if this is the case but I would guess that before assuming someone messed up and ruined it for everyone.

It works when the people that can not control their drinking can hopefully see a different side of it and this also gives a break to those who have to baby sit grown adults.

In the sense as well that it doesnt work because the following weekend or when it is allowed again more people will go downtown and drink more to "make up" for the previous weekend causing more stupid things to happen. Korea dry will not last long. Most people will just go to another base and drink or go downtown and drink or one of the other million places.

sandsjames
06-20-2014, 11:59 PM
Yes and No. When I was there it was like that for a while but typically they do it before exercises. Not sure if this is the case but I would guess that before assuming someone messed up and ruined it for everyone.

It works when the people that can not control their drinking can hopefully see a different side of it and this also gives a break to those who have to baby sit grown adults.

In the sense as well that it doesnt work because the following weekend or when it is allowed again more people will go downtown and drink more to "make up" for the previous weekend causing more stupid things to happen. Korea dry will not last long. Most people will just go to another base and drink or go downtown and drink or one of the other million places.

What it also does is piss of those who don't actually need a baby sitter and, IMO, makes people act like children.

I know it's a tough concept, but how 'bout you actually punish those who get in trouble and leave those who don't alone?

Our military guys has a "Front line supervisor" training a couple days ago. They were briefed that we, as supervisors/instructors/etc are not allowed to use a group punishment for our students or troops for the mistake of one person. Funny how it only applies at the lower levels.

Smeghead
06-21-2014, 12:30 AM
When I was at the Kun' 08-09 an Airman drank himself to death on Soju in the dorms. So they banned Soju in the dorms. Whiskey, Gin, Vodka, Tequila, Rum, etc ... all fine. We were free to carry on drinkingourselves to death on every other kind of liquor. But no Soju. Problem solved.


I know it's a tough concept, but how 'bout you actually punish those who get in trouble and leave those who don't alone?

Come on now, you know that'll never happen. "One person shits themselves, everybody has to wear a diaper."

Absinthe Anecdote
06-21-2014, 12:56 AM
When I was at the Kun' 08-09 an Airman drank himself to death on Soju in the dorms. So they banned Soju in the dorms. Whiskey, Gin, Vodka, Tequila, Rum, etc ... all fine. We were free to carry on drinkingourselves to death on every other kind of liquor. But no Soju. Problem solved.

I can see a commander doing something like that, reacting based on misconceptions.

Soju isn't really that strong, the most popular kinds of Soju are 40 proof or 20 percent alcohol by content.

There are some traditional types of Soju that are 90 proof but they aren't what one normally finds on sale in stores for the cheap price.

It has a mystique about it amongst American troops because of the stories you hear about people getting shit faced downtown, but that isn't because Soju is wickedly strong, it is because people overindulge and binge drink.

The same kind of bullshit rumors are passed around about Absinthe; many people think it is hallucinogenic, it isn't.

OtisRNeedleman
06-21-2014, 01:35 AM
The usual move by an incompetent commander...punish everyone for the sake of the few. REAL leadership trusts their people and deals with the exceptions by exception. This apparently doesn't apply to dependents, civilians and contractors. Funny when Mom can have a beer this weekend and Dad can't, even when he's done nothing to merit such a punishment.

I bet this clown's South Korean, Russian, Chinese and Japanese counterparts are privately laughing at him.

OtisRNeedleman
06-21-2014, 01:38 AM
So, I see the Commander of Seventh Air Force has banned alcohol (sale & consumption) at Osan this weekend...

Does this type of policy (knee jerk reaction) ever work???

No, it's just another OPR bullet, will probably help this clown get a fourth star, won't do anything to maintain combat readiness.

When REAL leadership is needed, US flag officers are politically neutered.

Chief_KO
06-21-2014, 02:26 AM
As a seasoned Osan vet (83-85, 89-90, 94-98) I can say I've pretty much seen it all...
This is reminiscent of the DDD (Dark Days of Doc)...and he ended up w/4 stars. It is truly amazing how many $hitty leaders (O & E) move to the very top positions.

Leaders need to lead by example; demonstrate responsible drinking, respect for others, life/work balance, standing up against stupidity.

Shove_your_stupid_meeting
06-21-2014, 03:42 AM
And this basically serves as a challenge for some to find ways to sneak/obtain alcohol regardless of the new law of the land.

When will we get a clue?

Gonzo432
06-21-2014, 04:35 AM
So, I see the Commander of Seventh Air Force has banned alcohol (sale & consumption) at Osan this weekend...

Does this type of policy (knee jerk reaction) ever work???

It makes the sorry excuse for a leader feel good. Other than that all this kind of reaction does is build animosity in the ranks.

Gonzo432
06-21-2014, 04:42 AM
As a seasoned Osan vet (83-85, 89-90, 94-98) I can say I've pretty much seen it all...
This is reminiscent of the DDD (Dark Days of Doc)...and he ended up w/4 stars. It is truly amazing how many $hitty leaders (O & E) move to the very top positions.

Leaders need to lead by example; demonstrate responsible drinking, respect for others, life/work balance, standing up against stupidity.
Dark days of Doc, I like it! I was out of the ROK in Dec 93 so I missed out on Doc's insanity. I've never heard ANYONE speak positively of that narcissistic sack of dog excrement. I heard our Fuels Systems guy at K-2 asked him a question during a commanders call he didn't like and pretty much ruined his chances of ever seeing SMSgt.

garhkal
06-21-2014, 06:08 AM
What it also does is piss of those who don't actually need a baby sitter and, IMO, makes people act like children.

I know it's a tough concept, but how 'bout you actually punish those who get in trouble and leave those who don't alone?

Our military guys has a "Front line supervisor" training a couple days ago. They were briefed that we, as supervisors/instructors/etc are not allowed to use a group punishment for our students or troops for the mistake of one person. Funny how it only applies at the lower levels.

I always hated those 'trainings' as well. Talk about double speak.

Chief_KO
06-22-2014, 02:19 AM
Dark days of Doc, I like it! I was out of the ROK in Dec 93 so I missed out on Doc's insanity. I've never heard ANYONE speak positively of that narcissistic sack of dog excrement. I heard our Fuels Systems guy at K-2 asked him a question during a commanders call he didn't like and pretty much ruined his chances of ever seeing SMSgt.

And the very next commander (former commander at Kunsan) was the exact opposite. I fondly remember not too long after change of command, he suspended the curfew in Songtan over a 3-day weekend.

I have a list of Doc'isms I've shared before: Interrupted base church service, command sponsored shopping days at commissary, closing all the dorm hootches (but kept the flying sq's "heritage rooms"), mandating enlisted use the side door to enter the O club, turning dayrooms into dorm rooms, eliminated unit integrity dorms, recalls at 5 PM, forced moves out of AF village, closed main gate post office/turned into town patrol holding cell, expanded size & range of town patrol, re-wrote base no-play area to include his favorite jogging path, replaced Korean stations w/Japanese stations on base cable TV, banned beer on the softball field dugouts, and of course all the Combat ______ programs.

OtisRNeedleman
06-22-2014, 02:59 AM
And the very next commander (former commander at Kunsan) was the exact opposite. I fondly remember not too long after change of command, he suspended the curfew in Songtan over a 3-day weekend.

I have a list of Doc'isms I've shared before: Interrupted base church service, command sponsored shopping days at commissary, closing all the dorm hootches (but kept the flying sq's "heritage rooms"), mandating enlisted use the side door to enter the O club, turning dayrooms into dorm rooms, eliminated unit integrity dorms, recalls at 5 PM, forced moves out of AF village, closed main gate post office/turned into town patrol holding cell, expanded size & range of town patrol, re-wrote base no-play area to include his favorite jogging path, replaced Korean stations w/Japanese stations on base cable TV, banned beer on the softball field dugouts, and of course all the Combat ______ programs.

What an utter bozo, indeed.

Absinthe Anecdote
06-22-2014, 03:16 AM
What an utter bozo, indeed.

I liked him, he was one of those Adult Air Force guys, he originally called his Combat Pride programs, the AAF.

Plus, I know for a fact, he posts in here sometimes; he was posting in the Gay Pride 5K just a few days ago, saying how glad he is to be retired.

Chief_KO
06-23-2014, 07:00 PM
I liked him, he was one of those Adult Air Force guys, he originally called his Combat Pride programs, the AAF.

Plus, I know for a fact, he posts in here sometimes; he was posting in the Gay Pride 5K just a few days ago, saying how glad he is to be retired.

You wouldn't be a retired Command Chief by any chance???

LogDog
06-23-2014, 08:02 PM
And the very next commander (former commander at Kunsan) was the exact opposite. I fondly remember not too long after change of command, he suspended the curfew in Songtan over a 3-day weekend.

I have a list of Doc'isms I've shared before: Interrupted base church service, command sponsored shopping days at commissary, closing all the dorm hootches (but kept the flying sq's "heritage rooms"), mandating enlisted use the side door to enter the O club, turning dayrooms into dorm rooms, eliminated unit integrity dorms, recalls at 5 PM, forced moves out of AF village, closed main gate post office/turned into town patrol holding cell, expanded size & range of town patrol, re-wrote base no-play area to include his favorite jogging path, replaced Korean stations w/Japanese stations on base cable TV, banned beer on the softball field dugouts, and of course all the Combat ______ programs.
I was stationed at Osan from '91-'92 so it seems I missed the fun you guys had. The only problem I ever had in Korea was when they announced there would be accompanied tours to Osan and those of us living in the AF village would have to start moving out in order to make the apartments ready for families. Moving out meant we'd have to find places to live off-base since the dorms were near 100% occupancy.

The Wing Commander made he announcement at one of a couple of Base Commander's Calls and when it came time for asking questions I told him of my situation and asked if there was any consideration being made for people in my situation. He had a blank look on his face and turned to some of his people and asked him a question that I couldn't hear. They too had blank looks on their faces at which time the Base Commander turned and answered my question by saying they hadn't considered this and then said I and others in my situation wouldn't have to move.

Other than that, I really had no problems from any of the commanders or their policies at an level.

Chief_KO
06-23-2014, 09:20 PM
I was stationed at Osan from '91-'92 so it seems I missed the fun you guys had. The only problem I ever had in Korea was when they announced there would be accompanied tours to Osan and those of us living in the AF village would have to start moving out in order to make the apartments ready for families. Moving out meant we'd have to find places to live off-base since the dorms were near 100% occupancy.

The Wing Commander made he announcement at one of a couple of Base Commander's Calls and when it came time for asking questions I told him of my situation and asked if there was any consideration being made for people in my situation. He had a blank look on his face and turned to some of his people and asked him a question that I couldn't hear. They too had blank looks on their faces at which time the Base Commander turned and answered my question by saying they hadn't considered this and then said I and others in my situation wouldn't have to move.

Other than that, I really had no problems from any of the commanders or their policies at an level.

Doc used "Force Protection" as the reason for several of his moves. Someone figured out that SNCOs are authorized more sq footage than Amn/NCOs, so the plan was to convert AF village to all SNCOs (or command sponsored); which meant moving out the NCOs/Amn thus cutting the number of Airmen living there by half.
Rather than wait to DEROS, it was move now. We literally had a SSgt in my unit w/less than 2 months till DEROS...had to move on base. Worse yet, had to do it via taxi or friends POV. TMO would not do it and couldn't use a GOV (even though it was mandatory/forced move). All those that should have stood up and said WRONG were either silenced or chose not to speak out.

When my First Sgt briefed us on using the side door to the O'Club, I told her I would not do so unless there was a sign indicated "Officer Entrance/enlisted use side door" at the front of the club. Of course, they could never have gotten away with that, so we continued to use the front door (sometimes not quietly). It was good not to be part of the 51FW.

Gonzo432
06-23-2014, 11:30 PM
I liked him, he was one of those Adult Air Force guys, he originally called his Combat Pride programs, the AAF.

Plus, I know for a fact, he posts in here sometimes; he was posting in the Gay Pride 5K just a few days ago, saying how glad he is to be retired.

Former USAFE E-9 Gary Coleman? Is that you?

giggawatt
06-24-2014, 03:20 AM
The wing CC at Al Udeid tried a novel approach. He relaxed a lot of rules and decided to treat us all more like adults. From what I saw in my short time there, there didn't seem to be a lot of problems. I wonder if he'll ever see a second star.

Sgt HULK
06-24-2014, 12:07 PM
When I was at the Kun' 08-09 an Airman drank himself to death on Soju in the dorms. So they banned Soju in the dorms. Whiskey, Gin, Vodka, Tequila, Rum, etc ... all fine. We were free to carry on drinkingourselves to death on every other kind of liquor. But no Soju. Problem solved.



Come on now, you know that'll never happen. "One person shits themselves, everybody has to wear a diaper."

yep i remember this. I was at OSAn 07-08 and it happened in 08 at OSAN, he didnt show for work they came to his room and he was a gonner, we saw him that night that he supposedly passed and he was wrecked. The following weekend, they did a base wide sweep of all rooms starting at like 0600, i remember the shirts and chiefs knocking on doors to check rooms. yahoo messenger going off like crazy warning everyone of the raid lol.

Measure Man
06-24-2014, 03:49 PM
The wing CC at Al Udeid tried a novel approach. He relaxed a lot of rules and decided to treat us all more like adults. From what I saw in my short time there, there didn't seem to be a lot of problems. I wonder if he'll ever see a second star.

I dunno.

There will always be some kind of problem...and then the powers to be will say, "See, you didn't do all you could to prevent this."

Cache Trogle
06-25-2014, 06:49 PM
The insanity of Korea, at times is foolishness. I put only part of the blame on the AF. At times the ARMY mentality does sort of intimidate the AF into trying to act all macho and warrior-like. Majority of AF people in Korea do there exact same job over there, that they would at home.

We had an incident where a SrA was having a good time, like everyone else at the dorms. A group of them went downtown later in the evening, like everyone else. It was cold out and there was ice downtown. the SrA slipped and cracked his head. Had to get stitches, it was an alcohol related incident, yadda yadda. He could have just as easily slipped had he not had a drop of alcohol, possbly.

I was talking to our 1st Sgt a few days later about the incident. I threw out the hypothetical to him; let's say it is Saturday night. I'm in my dorm, facetiming the wife and kids, watching a movie, have a few beers. Not uncommon. I'm in my late 30's. Going out all night isn't a huge desire anymore. So, after about 4-5 beers I go use the bathroom. I come out and damnit I hit my toe on the corner of the fridge. Yes, I am in bare feet. I am in my room after all. Yes, I probably should have turned on the light. Ok. Oops. But anyway, I now have an open cut on my toe that needs stitches. So, here I am next to SrA with a busted head. The Sq CC has two guys with alcohol related incidents on his hands.

Foolishness

Shadowless
07-26-2014, 03:44 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/incoming-us-airmen-korea-30-day-ban-booze-221354510.html

What happens if someone served a two year tour at Kunsan, tnen does a direct tour to Osan I wonder if they can waive this rule hahah

OtisRNeedleman
07-26-2014, 05:55 PM
This story was on Yahoo yesterday. The comments are as you'd expect - stupid move by Jan-Marc. Bet this rule will be dropped when 7AF changes command. But at least it's a good bullet for that fourth star, even though I wouldn't want to see Jan-Marc get that fourth star. Poor leaders don't deserve the top rank.

Chief_KO
07-27-2014, 01:03 PM
Bet this rule will be dropped when 7AF changes command. But at least it's a good bullet for that fourth star, even though I wouldn't want to see Jan-Marc get that fourth star. Poor leaders don't deserve the top rank.

Yep, sounds like Doc all over again. After 51FW CoC, the new CC (former Wolfpack) suspended Doc's draconian curfew enforcement policies over a 3-day weekend; which was "event-free". It was amazing to see such a night & day difference.

Teaching & modeling responsible behavior (be it alcohol, mutual respect, manners, what ever) is what is needed, not this.

efmbman
07-27-2014, 02:26 PM
Bet this rule will be dropped when 7AF changes command.

I disagree. Anyone that takes that command will know that there is a cascading event lying in wait.

1) Drop the policy.
2) A few alcohol related incidents happen (they will be reported because since the policy was dropped, people will be watching).
3) Since the incidents happened after the policy was dropped, the only possible conclusion is that had the policy still been in place they would not have happened.
4) The new command is therefore directly responsible for the incidents. No 4th star.

Dropping the policy would put the future of that general in the hands of subordinates - that will never be allowed to happen.

MACHINE666
07-30-2014, 12:46 PM
Okay...I will say this again....even though nobody above the rank of E-4 seems to pay attention and want to implement such an idea.

Wanna cut down on the numbers of ARI in the Air Force overall?

Why not take an example of how many of the inner city communities have done to curb gang violence, and host all-niter events on the weekends?

Midnight basketball competition at the base gym.

Video Game competitions set up at the community center. Participants can earn X-Box Live account cards or Playstation Network cards for signing in and participating. $20 gift card given when they leave.

Movie marathon at the movie theater. All active duty get in for free.

Poetry/ rap jam at the E-Club.

And while this may be "controversial" to some, I say have the junior officers form a "Big Brother/Big Sister" group where they can hang out with junior enlisted who are looking for guidance and support, without being pushy, or "corporate".

To all of those in Korea who have to deal with this crap, good luck. Been there, did that when General LaPorte was pissing on the ROK with his thou-shalt-nots in 2004/05 time frame.

Chief_KO
07-30-2014, 01:17 PM
Okay...I will say this again....even though nobody above the rank of E-4 seems to pay attention and want to implement such an idea.

Good points. Reminds me of many a Top III meeting when ideas were floated of "what to do for the Airmen"...no one ever thought to ask the Airmen what they wanted...just a bunch of 40 year olds trying to think like 18 yr olds.

efmbman
07-30-2014, 02:16 PM
Good points. Reminds me of many a Top III meeting when ideas were floated of "what to do for the Airmen"...no one ever thought to ask the Airmen what they wanted...just a bunch of 40 year olds trying to think like 18 yr olds.

When I was a Fort Bragg (late 90s) they had a program called BOSS: Better Opportunities for Single Soldiers. Despite the name, participation was not limited to single soldiers. It was very popular and successful because of your observation - no activity was mandated or organized by 40-year-old Sergeants Major. The brass did sign off in order to know what was happening (they would not sign off on a massive kegger at the barracks of course), and they happily lent their rank to get things to happen with MWR and such. I say happily because it was a program ran for the junior enlisted and ran by the junior enlisted which had the unintended effect of developing leadership traits and skills while having fun. Imagine that!

hustonj
07-30-2014, 03:07 PM
Years back, the junior enlisted on Offutt got permission to renovate a room in the base club to suit their desires, and then schedule events based around that room.

It did really well until the primary young leaders got married, PCSed or retruned to civilian life. Once the people who had invested their time and energy in the creation of the facility moved on, nobody really stepped up and took ownership behind them. The program just kind of withered on the vine.

THAT's a shame.

Last thing I knew, the room was still outfit the way they had it. Been over a year since I was on that base, though.