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Measure Man
06-13-2014, 08:42 PM
Okay, so the headlines blared, "Perry Compares Homosexuality to Alcoholism"

The intent, apparently, was to enrage those at his "ignorance" in, perhaps, calling homosexuality a disearse or "something wrong" as alcoholism...blah blah blach.

Ref: http://news.msn.com/us/perry-discusses-view-of-homosexuality?ocid=ansnews11

First, I never get the outrage over comparing two things. Comparing is not equating...and yes, you really can compare (and contrast) apples and oranges. Both are of similar size and shape, both are fruits, etc. Likewise you can compare sexual orientation to race, homosexuality to pedophilia, same-sex marriage to polygame and war to sports...it doesn't mean they are the same, or on the same level.

Okay, so Perry compares homosexuality to alcoholism, here is what he actually said,

"whether or not you feel compelled to follow a particular lifestyle or not, you have the ability to decide not to do that. I may have the genetic coding that I'm inclined to be an alcoholic, but I have the desire not to do that, and I look at the homosexual issue the same way."

Now, I suppose a staunch conservative trying to criticize Perry, might write a headline like, "Perry states homosexuality may have a genetic coding, i.e. you are born homosexual." An obvious no-no amongst the conservative christian demo.

So...still not the point. Is he wrong? NO. Of course someone can have the predisposition to alchoholism, but choose not to drink. Likewise, someone could have the predisposition to homosexuality, but choose to remain celibate.

In fact, I have a friend who is a staunch Catholic, and also a non-practicing homosexual...or at least "suffers" from same-sex attrraction, as he puts it. He posts about it on facebook regularly with articles and links. I think he views it much the same way as Perry...this is for whatever reason a temptation that he has...call it a blessing or curse or what-have-you. But, he deals with.

I can't remember if it was him or someone else who said, "The opposite of homosexual is not heterosexual...it is abstinence." Which is kind of a neat way of looking at it...and probably mentally healthier than try to be "cured" into heterosexuality. That is, if you are believing in such a way that homosexuality is a sin, and you have this temptation, the spiritual treatment is not going to make you heterosexual, but can teach you to deal with your temptation and live according to your beliefs.

I yield the floor.

sandsjames
06-13-2014, 08:52 PM
Okay, so the headlines blared, "Perry Compares Homosexuality to Alcoholism"

The intent, apparently, was to enrage those at his "ignorance" in, perhaps, calling homosexuality a disearse or "something wrong" as alcoholism...blah blah blach.

Ref: http://news.msn.com/us/perry-discusses-view-of-homosexuality?ocid=ansnews11

First, I never get the outrage over comparing two things. Comparing is not equating...and yes, you really can compare (and contrast) apples and oranges. Bother are of similar size and shape, both are fruits, etc. Likewise you can compare sexual orientation to race, homosexuality to pedophilia, same-sex marriage to polygame and war to sports...it doesn't mean they are the same, or on the same level.

Okay, so Perry compares homosexuality to alcoholism, here is what he actually said,

"whether or not you feel compelled to follow a particular lifestyle or not, you have the ability to decide not to do that. I may have the genetic coding that I'm inclined to be an alcoholic, but I have the desire not to do that, and I look at the homosexual issue the same way."

Now, I suppose a staunch conservative trying to criticize Perry, might write a headline like, "Perry states homosexuality may have a genetic coding, i.e. you are born homosexual." An obvious no-no amongst the conservative christian demo.

So...still not the point. Is he wrong? NO. Of course someone can have the predisposition to alchoholism, but choose not to drink. Likewise, someone could have the predisposition to homosexuality, but choose to remain celibate.

In fact, I have a friend who is a staunch Catholic, and also a non-practicing homosexual...or at least "suffers" from same-sex attrraction, as he puts it. He posts about it on facebook regularly with articles and links. I think he views it much the same way as Perry...this is for whatever reason a temptation that he has...call it a blessing or curse or what-have-you. But, he deals with.

I can't remember if it was him or someone else who said, "The opposite of homosexual is not heterosexual...it is abstinence." Which is kind of a neat way of looking at it...and probably mentally healthier than try to be "cured" into heterosexuality. That is, if you are believing in such a way that homosexuality is a sin, and you have this temptation, the spiritual treatment is not going to make you heterosexual, but can teach you to deal with your temptation and live according to your beliefs.

I yield the floor.

It's a really interesting point/question you raise. I've heard it discussed several times and, unfortunately, it always turns into a political/religious argument.

I agree with what he says that we all have choices to what we do.

Science says that men are predisposed through nature to seek several mates. Only through choice do we decide whether to be monogomous or not. The same can be said about anything we've determined to be "instinct" or "genetics" or "predisposition".

The argument then comes down to what the individual believes is right or wrong. Hopefully, no matter which side of things they fall on, they choose what they feel is the right thing.

Rusty Jones
06-13-2014, 09:01 PM
So... he's asking homosexuals to not engage in gay sex? And I should see this as honorable... why?

sandsjames
06-13-2014, 09:03 PM
So... he's asking homosexuals to not engage in gay sex? And I should see this as honorable... why?

He's making a point that engaging in sex is always a choice.

Rusty Jones
06-13-2014, 09:04 PM
He's making a point that engaging in sex is always a choice.

He singled out gay sex.

Measure Man
06-13-2014, 09:17 PM
So... he's asking homosexuals to not engage in gay sex? And I should see this as honorable... why?

I don't think he's asking anyone to do anything...at least not in this quote.

I suppose it can be taken to imply that participating in homosexual behavior is damaging, much like participating in alcohilism...but, I think the recognition that the inclination, predisposition, or what have is "just something people have" is significant.

The Chrisition Conservative platform is typically, more like, "Everyone is born straight, but some people choose to be gay because they are just perverted, they've poisoned their minds through choices they've made" or whatever.

I also like the implication that "choosing not to be gay" does not mean one will be heterosexual, but rather not participate in gay sex. Maybe I read too much into that, but I think you can draw it out of what he said...like an alcohilic can choose to abstain, but can't choose to be a social drinker. A homosexual can choose to abstain, but can't choose to be heterosexual.

sandsjames
06-13-2014, 09:20 PM
He singled out gay sex.

Indeed he did. He also singled out alcoholism. I don't take that to mean that he thinks alcoholics are less of a person than anyone else.

Whether you agree with it or not, there are many people out there with these opinions. You know the good thing? If he didn't publicly say stuff like this the people who disagree with his opinions might screw up and vote for him.

sandsjames
06-13-2014, 09:21 PM
I don't think he's asking anyone to do anything...at least not in this quote.

I suppose it can be taken to imply that participating in homosexual behavior is damaging, much like participating in alcohilism...but, I think the recognition that the inclination, predisposition, or what have is "just something people have" is significant.

The Chrisition Conservative platform is typically, more like, "Everyone is born straight, but some people choose to be gay because they are just perverted, they've poisoned their minds through choices they've made" or whatever.

And I'm interested to see how these comments will be used by other Republicans in the primaries to show how "liberal" he is.

Measure Man
06-13-2014, 09:23 PM
And I'm interested to see how these comments will be used by other Republicans in the primaries to show how "liberal" he is.

Right...that was point with the alternate headline that could have bene written. Is Santorum running again?

Rusty Jones
06-13-2014, 09:24 PM
Indeed he did. He also singled out alcoholism. I don't take that to mean that he thinks alcoholics are less of a person than anyone else.

Alcoholism wasn't the point of his message. Homosexuality was. Nice try.


Whether you agree with it or not, there are many people out there with these opinions. You know the good thing? If he didn't publicly say stuff like this the people who disagree with his opinions might screw up and vote for him.

Saying fucked up things in ways that allow for plausible deniability. A skill that Republicans have, that no one else buys.

sandsjames
06-13-2014, 09:26 PM
Alcoholism wasn't the point of his message. Homosexuality was. Nice try.



Saying fucked up things in ways that allow for plausible deniability. A skill that Republicans have, that no one else buys.LOL..right...only Republican politicians do this. Come on now, I know you aren't that out of touch.

Rusty Jones
06-13-2014, 09:31 PM
LOL..right...only Republican politicians do this. Come on now, I know you aren't that out of touch.

Well, I've played football before. Out in the backyard when I was a kid. That's basically describes Democrats. Republicans? They're in the NFL with that shit!

Absinthe Anecdote
06-13-2014, 09:38 PM
So...still not the point. Is he wrong? NO. Of course someone can have the predisposition to alchoholism, but choose not to drink. Likewise, someone could have the predisposition to homosexuality, but choose to remain celibate.

In fact, I have a friend who is a staunch Catholic, and also a non-practicing homosexual...or at least "suffers" from same-sex attrraction, as he puts it.

Even if it is true that you can choose not to have sex, what the hell does that have to to with why you should choose that route, better yet, why is that any reason to view sexual attraction as something to suffer from?

Does your average heterosexual want to be told, "you suffer from opposite sex attraction, but the good news is, you can choose to be celibate."

WTF?

A person can choose to stop breathing air on to not eat food, so fucking what.

SJ mentioned that this type of discussion always turns religious.

Well, duh!

The reason people think sex is bad is because religion.

If I went to the Middle East and dug up some stone tablet that says God wants you to cut your balls off, are you going to do that?

Rusty Jones
06-13-2014, 09:41 PM
If I went to the Middle East and dug up some stone tablet that says God wants you to cut your balls off, are you going to do that?

I wouldn't be shocked if they did. I don't have my foreskin because of God.

Measure Man
06-13-2014, 09:51 PM
Even if it is true that you can choose not to have sex, what the hell does that have to to with why you should choose that route, better yet, why is that any reason to view sexual attraction as something to suffer from?

Some people's religious beliefs tell them, of course. If your's don't that's fine with me.

I think the perspective and tone is different. So, instead of a kid brought up in a religious household has to overcome his feelings of "I am bad, I am not right, I am perverted" he grows up with an understanding of, "Everyone has their cross to bear, this is mine"

Personally, if one is going to maintain their relgious conviction (not saying they should or should not)...but if one is going to, then the later is healthier mental health outlook.


Does your average heterosexual want to be told, "you suffer from opposite sex attraction, but the good news is, you can choose to be celibate."

WTF?

Well, outside of marriage, I think many Christians struggle with their sexuality, even if it is hetero. The believe that sex outside marriage is sinful and abstain, or try to abstain, etc.


A person can choose to stop breathing air on to not eat food, so fucking what.

SJ mentioned that this type of discussion always turns religious.

Well, duh!

The reason people think sex is bad is because religion.

Ok...


If I went to the Middle East and dug up some stone tablet that says God wants you to cut your balls off, are you going to do that?

Not this guy...I'm not a follower of religion and don't believe sex is sinful...but this post isn't about me, it's about religious people who feel atracted to the same-sex. Yes, one way to resolve that is to give up the religion, and maybe the world would be better off if they did, but I think this is a moderating point of view here.

sandsjames
06-13-2014, 09:54 PM
The reason people think sex is bad is because religion.

If I went to the Middle East and dug up some stone tablet that says God wants you to cut your balls off, are you going to do that?

You're really embarrassing yourself with these comments.

You already know what Perry was trying to say and you just want to keep trying to assume you know how I treat people.

But, just in case you are half as ignorant as you are pretending to be, I'll paraphrase.

If you are a Christian and feel that it would be a sin to have homosexual sex, don't do it.

Hell, he's not even saying it's wrong to be gay. He's not saying that being gay is a choice. He's just saying that is someone is gay and feels that acting on it would be wrong then don't act on it.

sandsjames
06-13-2014, 09:55 PM
I wouldn't be shocked if they did. I don't have my foreskin because of God.

Actually, you probably don't have your foreskin because it's much cleaner and helps to avoid infections.

Stalwart
06-13-2014, 10:22 PM
You know the good thing? If he didn't publicly say stuff like this the people who disagree with his opinions might screw up and vote for him.

And while I don't agree with what he said; I can respect the fact that he is willing to so bluntly state what he believes.

Absinthe Anecdote
06-13-2014, 10:23 PM
You're really embarrassing yourself with these comments.

You already know what Perry was trying to say and you just want to keep trying to assume you know how I treat people.

But, just in case you are half as ignorant as you are pretending to be, I'll paraphrase.

If you are a Christian and feel that it would be a sin to have homosexual sex, don't do it.

Hell, he's not even saying it's wrong to be gay. He's not saying that being gay is a choice. He's just saying that is someone is gay and feels that acting on it would be wrong then don't act on it.

Actually Perry is embarrassing himself by making a comparison of homosexuality and alcoholism. The guy is a career politician and you'd think he'd have enough sense to not make statements that can so easily be turned against him.

However, he was speaking to a group of constituents that have a negative view of homosexuality, so he was merely telling a block of voters something they wanted to hear.

You are being an apologist by softening his statement to me, so I can't so easily call the evangelical segment of the Republican Party, "gay haters."

Stalwart
06-13-2014, 10:23 PM
I wouldn't be shocked if they did. I don't have my foreskin because of God.

I would think it is more because of a choice your parent(s) made; at least I hope you weren't old enough to make the choice yourself (and remember it ... whoa.)

sandsjames
06-13-2014, 10:31 PM
Actually Perry is embarrassing himself by making a comparison of homosexuality and alcoholism. The guy is a career politician and you'd think he'd have enough sense to not make statements that can so easily be turned against him. You really think that he made this statement because he doesn't have sense? This is a well planned out move. The Republicans need a more moderate stance on many things to have any chance at success in 2016. My guess would be that this is his way of sounding more moderate while not completely alienating too many people. He's a politician. Don't ever assume that any of them haven't weighed the pros and cons of their comments.



You are being an apologist by softening his statement to me, so I can't so easily call the evangelical segment of the Republican Party, "gay haters."

I don't care what you call them. I don't identify with Evangelicals at all. I'll vote for whoever is going to do their best to help the poor. All the other stuff is secondary.

Absinthe Anecdote
06-13-2014, 10:40 PM
You really think that he made this statement because he doesn't have sense? This is a well planned out move. The Republicans need a more moderate stance on many things to have any chance at success in 2016. My guess would be that this is his way of sounding more moderate while not completely alienating too many people. He's a politician. Don't ever assume that any of them haven't weighed the pros and cons of their comments.



I don't care what you call them. I don't identify with Evangelicals at all. I'll vote for whoever is going to do their best to help the poor. All the other stuff is secondary.

You're right it was well planned, much like your omission of the part of my post that acknowledged that very point.

It's ok, you're probably just grumpy from being trounced in the gay pride 5K thread.