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View Full Version : CA trying to pass bill to let non citizens serve on jury duty. Right or wrong?



garhkal
05-23-2014, 07:20 PM
I saw this while commenting on a thread on another site having to do with the VA scandal and how it seems Illegals are getting better treatment from our govt than even our vets do..

http://calwatchdog.com/2013/04/25/californias-new-undocumented-jurors/

LogDog
05-23-2014, 07:48 PM
I saw this while commenting on a thread on another site having to do with the VA scandal and how it seems Illegals are getting better treatment from our govt than even our vets do..

http://calwatchdog.com/2013/04/25/californias-new-undocumented-jurors/
Your link is over a year old and you didn't do any research as to it's outcome. The bill passed the legislature but Governor Brown vetoed it in October, 2013. I remember when this bill was introduced and I opposed it then and I still oppose it today.

The purpose of the bill was to expand the eligibility of who could serve on a jury. For non-citizens, they would have to be legal, permanent residents; not illegals. Here is a list, from the bill, of who cannot serve on a California jury.


The people of the State of California do enact as follows:

SECTION 1.
Section 203 of the Code of Civil Procedure is amended to read:

203.
(a) All persons are eligible and qualified to be prospective trial jurors, except the following:
(1) Persons who are not lawful permanent immigrants or citizens of the United States.
(2) Persons who are less than 18 years of age.
(3) Persons who are not domiciliaries of the State of California, as determined pursuant to Article 2 (commencing with Section 2020) of Chapter 1 of Division 2 of the Elections Code.
(4) Persons who are not residents of the jurisdiction they are summoned to serve.
(5) Persons who have been convicted of malfeasance in office or a felony, and whose civil rights have not been restored.
(6) Persons who are not possessed of sufficient knowledge of the English language, provided that no person shall be deemed incompetent solely because of the loss of sight or hearing in any degree or other disability that impedes the person’s ability to communicate or that impairs or interferes with the person’s mobility.
(7) Persons who are serving as grand or trial jurors in any court of this state.
(8) Persons who are the subject of conservatorship.
(b) No person shall be excluded from eligibility for jury service in the State of California, for any reason other than those reasons provided by this section.

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201320140AB1401

Your attempt to make it seem that illegal aliens were getting better treatment than our vet is a complete and utter failure.

Measure Man
05-23-2014, 08:00 PM
Your attempt to make it seem that illegal aliens were getting better treatment than our vet is a complete and utter failure.

...also since there is nothing preventing Vets from serving on a jury.

GeoDude
05-23-2014, 11:44 PM
I saw this while commenting on a thread on another site having to do with the VA scandal and how it seems Illegals are getting better treatment from our govt than even our vets do..



Since when was jury duty "better treatment"?

garhkal
05-24-2014, 05:44 AM
My statement of getting better than vets do was in relation to that other thread. NOT the topic at hand (perhaps i could have been clearer i realize).
Yes i do know they are 'saying in the article' its only for "Legal residents". But when CA is one of the states handing out welfare and drivers licenses to Illegals, is it any wonder people think that this may be next?

GeoDude
05-26-2014, 11:07 PM
My statement of getting better than vets do was in relation to that other thread. NOT the topic at hand (perhaps i could have been clearer i realize).
Yes i do know they are 'saying in the article' its only for "Legal residents". But when CA is one of the states handing out welfare and drivers licenses to Illegals, is it any wonder people think that this may be next?

Illegal immigrants don't get welfare.

garhkal
05-27-2014, 06:49 AM
Illegal immigrants don't get welfare.

You sure of that. Just did a Bing search on the question "number of states where illegals get welfare and these are the 3 top sites.

http://www.cis.org/immigrant-welfare-use-2011
http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2011/04/most-illegal-immigrant-families-collect-welfare/
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/07/stunner-most-illegal-immigrant-families-collect-welfare-obama-wants-to-up-that-number/

So it DOES look like they get it.

GeoDude
05-27-2014, 07:17 AM
You sure of that. Just did a Bing search on the question "number of states where illegals get welfare and these are the 3 top sites.

http://www.cis.org/immigrant-welfare-use-2011
http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2011/04/most-illegal-immigrant-families-collect-welfare/
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/07/stunner-most-illegal-immigrant-families-collect-welfare-obama-wants-to-up-that-number/

So it DOES look like they get it.

None of the links you just posted - even the fringe fear-mongering blogs - states that illegal immigrants receive welfare.

Now is it possible for a citizen with undocumented parents/family to receive social assistance? Sure. The only legal status that matters is that of the individual receiving the benefits, not the other members of the household.

CYBERFX1024
05-27-2014, 03:16 PM
Illegal immigrants don't get welfare.

Actually they do.

I live in California, Pasadena to be exact. The children of Illegals wither they are Illegal or not do receive subsidies. I know this for a fact because my children go to two different schools, my son is in TK (in between PreK and Kindergarten for those born after Sept 30). He goes to a school where a majority of the school is ESL (English as Second Language) and the children who are illegal are on free lunch. They also have social workers from LA County who come and help process the applications for food stamps.

Another factor is that if the parents are Illegal but the child but more often than not children are citizens. Then the "children" receive benefits that are geared towards helping the whole whole family because in order to apply for federal benefits then a ssn is needed. But that is not the case for state benefits.

Rusty Jones
05-27-2014, 03:34 PM
10..........................

sandsjames
05-27-2014, 03:43 PM
10..........................

Like him a lot as a comedian. However, I think that joke could say "We have American problems..." as all Americans think they have it bad...to include whites, blacks, hispanics, etc. I challenge anyone to spend a month in Africa (was in Cameroon in 2002) then come back and bitch about how bad we have it.

I know that there's always someone else worse off, but I'm pretty sure that if we actually experienced real poverty and opression we might have a different outlook on things.

Rusty Jones
05-27-2014, 04:16 PM
I don't necessarily agree with the overall point of the meme; i.e., shut the fuck up because someone else always has it worse... afterall, how many times have you had leadership stateside that killed morale, but as soon as someone opens their mouth about it, they get shut down with shit like "You COULD be in the sandbox right now, kicking down doors and getting shot at!"

However... let's be honest. Americans who bitch about having to pick a language at the ATM, or "press 1 for English" when they're on the phone... is their issue REALLY with having to take less than a second to press a button? And who cares about the legal status of a jury member? Is that going to effect the outcome of the verdict?

Face it... it's easier for someone to say that they hate pushing a button, or bitch about someone sitting on a jury whose status has nothing to do with the case... than it is to come out and just admit that they a have a prejudice toward a certain group of people.

And before anyone says it, spare me the bullshit of not minding them if they were legal. Because the ATM situation, like many other situations, has nothing to do with that.

sandsjames
05-27-2014, 04:25 PM
I don't necessarily agree with the overall point of the meme; i.e., shut the fuck up because someone else always has it worse... afterall, how many times have you had leadership stateside that killed morale, but as soon as someone opens their mouth about it, they get shut down with shit like "You COULD be in the sandbox right now, kicking down doors and getting shot at!"

However... let's be honest. Americans who bitch about having to pick a language at the ATM, or "press 1 for English" when they're on the phone... is their issue REALLY with having to take less than a second to press a button? And who cares about the legal status of a jury member? Is that going to effect the outcome of the verdict?

Face it... it's easier for someone to say that they hate pushing a button, or bitch about someone sitting on a jury whose status has nothing to do with the case... than it is to come out and just admit that they a have a prejudice toward a certain group of people.

And before anyone says it, spare me the bullshit of not minding them if they were legal. Because the ATM situation, like many other situations, has nothing to do with that.

I pretty much agree with this...except for the jury member thing. It doesn't necessarily make a difference, but legal status is a requirement. I think that the laws should be followed and if the government and the people don't care if they are followed then they should be changed/repealed.

I do, however, think that the American's that bitch about having to push a button for the language should be forced to spend some time in a foreign country without the aid of everyone in that country speaking English. It might change a few minds. Then again, most of the people who bitch are the same ones who will never actually step foot outside the U.S.

garhkal
05-27-2014, 07:17 PM
Like him a lot as a comedian. However, I think that joke could say "We have American problems..." as all Americans think they have it bad...to include whites, blacks, hispanics, etc. I challenge anyone to spend a month in Africa (was in Cameroon in 2002) then come back and bitch about how bad we have it.

I know that there's always someone else worse off, but I'm pretty sure that if we actually experienced real poverty and opression we might have a different outlook on things.

Agreed. Compared to some places in Africa, Asia and the mid east, our issues are mild, but to say that means we should not be able to bitch about the issues we do have is imo wrong.


However... let's be honest. Americans who bitch about having to pick a language at the ATM, or "press 1 for English" when they're on the phone... is their issue REALLY with having to take less than a second to press a button? And who cares about the legal status of a jury member? Is that going to effect the outcome of the verdict?

It might affect the outcome. Do you think an illegal on the jury is going to be more or less willing to convict a fellow illegal?


I do, however, think that the American's that bitch about having to push a button for the language should be forced to spend some time in a foreign country without the aid of everyone in that country speaking English. It might change a few minds. Then again, most of the people who bitch are the same ones who will never actually step foot outside the U.S.

True. I have traveled a lot, and try to learn the local lingo where i go (some languages i failed miserably at), but at least made the effort. My issue is though, every other country has a national language (some even have 2). Why can't we?

WILDJOKER5
05-27-2014, 07:22 PM
Like him a lot as a comedian. However, I think that joke could say "We have American problems..." as all Americans think they have it bad...to include whites, blacks, hispanics, etc. I challenge anyone to spend a month in Africa (was in Cameroon in 2002) then come back and bitch about how bad we have it.

I know that there's always someone else worse off, but I'm pretty sure that if we actually experienced real poverty and opression we might have a different outlook on things.

Shhhhh....You have "white privelage". You dont understand.

http://www.progressivestoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/wpc-flyer-painted.png

GeoDude
05-27-2014, 11:56 PM
Actually they do.

I live in California, Pasadena to be exact. The children of Illegals wither they are Illegal or not do receive subsidies. I know this for a fact because my children go to two different schools, my son is in TK (in between PreK and Kindergarten for those born after Sept 30). He goes to a school where a majority of the school is ESL (English as Second Language) and the children who are illegal are on free lunch. They also have social workers from LA County who come and help process the applications for food stamps.

Another factor is that if the parents are Illegal but the child but more often than not children are citizens. Then the "children" receive benefits that are geared towards helping the whole whole family because in order to apply for federal benefits then a ssn is needed. But that is not the case for state benefits.

As I stated earlier - citizens are eligible for social assistance, regardless of the legal status of their parents or other household members.

Also - I'm curious how you came to be an expert on the immigration status of the other parents at the school. You must be a party favorite at PTA meetings.

GeoDude
05-27-2014, 11:59 PM
Shhhhh....You have "white privelage". You dont understand.

http://www.progressivestoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/wpc-flyer-painted.png

Yes, and I'm sure this right wing blog is a credible source on what progressive supposedly think.

BTW - am I reading your signature wrong, or did you score as an "authoritarian" on the political compass website? So I take that as admitting to being in favor of big government?

garhkal
05-28-2014, 03:08 AM
Shhhhh....You have "white privelage". You dont understand.

http://www.progressivestoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/wpc-flyer-painted.png

I saw that story and was like WTF over.

TJMAC77SP
05-28-2014, 04:51 AM
Yes, and I'm sure this right wing blog is a credible source on what progressive supposedly think.



Is the flyer a fake? It isn't a handout from the WPC?

WILDJOKER5
05-28-2014, 11:59 AM
Yes, and I'm sure this right wing blog is a credible source on what progressive supposedly think.What I gave you was straight from the progressives $250k DOJ sposored conference. Not opinion of the blog. And its not a "blog", its a news site.


BTW - am I reading your signature wrong, or did you score as an "authoritarian" on the political compass website? So I take that as admitting to being in favor of big government?
Yes, you are reading it wrong. I copied it straight from the compass website, but negative numbers meant I was more libertarian than I was authoritarian. Obama and Romney were at +7 for Authoritarian.

GeoDude
05-28-2014, 03:52 PM
Is the flyer a fake? It isn't a handout from the WPC?

On google I couldn't find any mainstream news outlet reporting the story - it was all right wing blogs.

I find it difficult to believe a real flyer could so consistently hit every right wing talking point on race. Is it possible? Sure. I'm not buying though.

WILDJOKER5
05-28-2014, 04:15 PM
On google I couldn't find any mainstream news outlet reporting the story - it was all right wing blogs.

I find it difficult to believe a real flyer could so consistently hit every right wing talking point on race. Is it possible? Sure. I'm not buying though.

So what is your criteria for "mainstream" news outlet? Again, gateway pundit is not a "blog" since it is not giving its opinion, its reporting stories. And this is not a right wing talking point on race, I dont know what those could be honestly. Its the left that always brings up race, and they are consistantly the ones that this memo, published by liberal progressives, are "guilty" of conveying.

Measure Man
05-28-2014, 04:19 PM
It might affect the outcome. Do you think an illegal on the jury is going to be more or less willing to convict a fellow illegal?

Maybe about the same likelihood of a citizen being more or less likely to convict a fellow citizen?

GeoDude
05-28-2014, 04:36 PM
So what is your criteria for "mainstream" news outlet? Again, gateway pundit is not a "blog" since it is not giving its opinion, its reporting stories.

You realize that a "blog" can be about a lot of things, not just opinions - right? And did you really just say gateway pundit isn't opinionated?



And this is not a right wing talking point on race, I dont know what those could be honestly. Its the left that always brings up race, and they are consistantly the ones that this memo, published by liberal progressives, are "guilty" of conveying.

Oh come on really - any one of those bullets could have come straight out of the GOP play manual.

TJMAC77SP
05-28-2014, 08:48 PM
On google I couldn't find any mainstream news outlet reporting the story - it was all right wing blogs.

I find it difficult to believe a real flyer could so consistently hit every right wing talking point on race. Is it possible? Sure. I'm not buying though.


I don't actually believe it is a huge story so am not too surprised at the lack of universal coverage but I did look at the official website for the WPC and after looking at some of the

http://www.whiteprivilegeconference.com/pdf/WPC15-Workshop-Schedule.pdf

the handout doesn’t seem that far-fetched. That's putting aside a conference entitled White Privilege Conference to begin with.

GeoDude
05-28-2014, 11:12 PM
I don't actually believe it is a huge story so am not too surprised at the lack of universal coverage but I did look at the official website for the WPC and after looking at some of the

http://www.whiteprivilegeconference.com/pdf/WPC15-Workshop-Schedule.pdf

the handout doesn’t seem that far-fetched. That's putting aside a conference entitled White Privilege Conference to begin with.

Aside from the fact that the flyer seems to be circulating exclusively in the right-wing blogosphere with no clear origins, I'm skeptical. Also, the tone of the flyer strikes me as a Conservative trying to sound like what he perceives to be a liberal. This whole scare frankly reminds me of the myth that 19th century and early 20th century socialists plotted a takeover of America by implementing Obamacare.

I am curious though what was so offensive in your post that required action on the part of our neighborhood moderator.

sandsjames
05-28-2014, 11:40 PM
I am curious though what was so offensive in your post that required action on the part of our neighborhood moderator.

Great question...maybe he said "crap" or something.

Mjölnir
05-29-2014, 10:02 AM
I am curious though what was so offensive in your post that required action on the part of our neighborhood moderator.

An embedded link was removed.

I thought I had put that in the "reason for editing" field, my mistake.

GeoDude
05-29-2014, 02:18 PM
Great question...maybe he said "crap" or something.


An embedded link was removed.

I thought I had put that in the "reason for editing" field, my mistake.

Another serious issue that requires moderators' attention is many renegade members using different typefaces and font. Heck, just the other day I saw a member using a sans-serif font in the body of his post when it was clearly inappropriate to do so. And don't even get me started when someone thinks its "cool" and "hip" to puke up walls of blue and red text.

sandsjames
05-29-2014, 02:55 PM
Another serious issue that requires moderators' attention is many renegade members using different typefaces and font. Heck, just the other day I saw a member using a sans-serif font in the body of his post when it was clearly inappropriate to do so. And don't even get me started when someone thinks its "cool" and "hip" to puke up walls of blue and red text.

I believe this should be posted in the "Questions" thread!

TJMAC77SP
05-29-2014, 03:12 PM
Aside from the fact that the flyer seems to be circulating exclusively in the right-wing blogosphere with no clear origins, I'm skeptical. Also, the tone of the flyer strikes me as a Conservative trying to sound like what he perceives to be a liberal. This whole scare frankly reminds me of the myth that 19th century and early 20th century socialists plotted a takeover of America by implementing Obamacare.

I am curious though what was so offensive in your post that required action on the part of our neighborhood moderator.

Embedded links are now the scourge of the MTF. The link to the workshop schedule was originally embedded in the text of my post. In fairness I am sure it is a security issue and if so, I have no problem with that.

EDIT: Just read the remainder of the thread..................oops.

sandsjames
05-29-2014, 03:15 PM
Embedded links are now the scourge of the MTF. The link to the workshop schedule was originally embedded in the text of my post. In fairness I am sure it is a security issue and if so, I have no problem with that.

EDIT: Just read the remainder of the thread..................oops.

I still have no idea what the difference is between embedded and linked so I'm sure I'm just as guilty as the next guy.

GeoDude
05-29-2014, 04:19 PM
I still have no idea what the difference is between embedded and linked so I'm sure I'm just as guilty as the next guy.

If you highlight a portion of your text and click the insert link button, you can embed a hyperlink in your post without showing a url. So basically you can write an article or blog post, and show sources for your statements - and the reader can click the highlighted text while scrolling through your story. Otherwise you would have to have urls breaking up your paragraphs, or have your sources all listed at the end, like in a conventional typed essay.

MTF was in chaos, and a frequent target for cyber terror attacks until the admin stepped in and forbade the use of embedded links.

CYBERFX1024
05-30-2014, 03:54 PM
Agreed. Compared to some places in Africa, Asia and the mid east, our issues are mild, but to say that means we should not be able to bitch about the issues we do have is imo wrong.

It might affect the outcome. Do you think an illegal on the jury is going to be more or less willing to convict a fellow illegal?

True. I have traveled a lot, and try to learn the local lingo where i go (some languages i failed miserably at), but at least made the effort. My issue is though, every other country has a national language (some even have 2). Why can't we?

I agree with you as well. I have traveled quite extensively as well all across Asia and the ME. I have lived in parts of Asia and the ME. We Americans as a whole bitch about stupid and idiotic issues. When the rest of the world deal with actual real problems and worry everyday about them. When we have people in this country who are "poor" but are fat as hell then you know that they don't have a significant problem. All the while the people in other parts of the world who are actually poor are starving and skinny. It's common throughout SE Asia that if someone is fat or overweight then people think that that person has money, because only people with money actually eat and gain weight.

CYBERFX1024
05-30-2014, 04:01 PM
As I stated earlier - citizens are eligible for social assistance, regardless of the legal status of their parents or other household members.
Also - I'm curious how you came to be an expert on the immigration status of the other parents at the school. You must be a party favorite at PTA meetings.

I am a member of both of my kids schools PTA and I try to be active with each school when I can be. But my son's school has next to no parent participation and so this has given me the chance to actually get to know some of the administrators at his school when I go to school functions. They have told me the same thing I said before to you that a majority of the students parents from that school are illegal. I am a favorite because I am parent that actually shows up and supports the school.

Also when I go to a school function I have to hear a speech that's twice as long as it should be. This is because the principal says the first paragraph in english and then reiterates it in spainish. While at my daughters school this doesn't happen. This is because where my daughter goes to school its a fair mixture of people and a majority of parents send them there to actually learn better english. I have seen this first hand because my daughter had 3 korean kids, 2 chinese, and 1 japanease, and 1 Filipino in her class. At the open house the parents actually asked about how his/her english skills were coming along.

garhkal
05-30-2014, 07:02 PM
It's common throughout SE Asia that if someone is fat or overweight then people think that that person has money, because only people with money actually eat and gain weight.

I always laugh when i hear that. Cause most of the panhandlers i saw in Bahrain, and the few i saw in Okinawa WERE fat. They obviously were not starving.

Rusty Jones
05-30-2014, 07:11 PM
I always laugh when i hear that. Cause most of the panhandlers i saw in Bahrain, and the few i saw in Okinawa WERE fat. They obviously were not starving.

Obsesity is common among poor people, because they can't afford healthier food options. With my income, for example, I can afford to buy the leanest ground beef or choose ground turkey instead, if that's what I feel like using. Poor people, on the other hand, have to buy cheapest ground beef which, I believe, is only 70% lean.

Ramen noodles... half the calories are fat. We don't have to mention vienna sausages, potted beef, Spam/Treet, and all the crap poor people eat because they can't afford anything else.

GeoDude
05-30-2014, 07:22 PM
I am a member of both of my kids schools PTA and I try to be active with each school when I can be. But my son's school has next to no parent participation and so this has given me the chance to actually get to know some of the administrators at his school when I go to school functions. They have told me the same thing I said before to you that a majority of the students parents from that school are illegal. I am a favorite because I am parent that actually shows up and supports the school.

Also when I go to a school function I have to hear a speech that's twice as long as it should be. This is because the principal says the first paragraph in english and then reiterates it in spainish. While at my daughters school this doesn't happen. This is because where my daughter goes to school its a fair mixture of people and a majority of parents send them there to actually learn better english. I have seen this first hand because my daughter had 3 korean kids, 2 chinese, and 1 japanease, and 1 Filipino in her class. At the open house the parents actually asked about how his/her english skills were coming along.

While I sympathize with the agony of having to endure someone speaking in Spanish for a few minutes - I have yet to see any evidence from you that any child is receiving aid who isn't supposed to.


I always laugh when i hear that. Cause most of the panhandlers i saw in Bahrain, and the few i saw in Okinawa WERE fat. They obviously were not starving.

You realize of course that obesity is tied to a poor diet - right? Now combine that with the fact that our economy is increasingly becoming one where the majority of the jobs are sedentary?

CYBERFX1024
05-30-2014, 07:39 PM
While I sympathize with the agony of having to endure someone speaking in Spanish for a few minutes - I have yet to see any evidence from you that any child is receiving aid who isn't supposed to.
You realize of course that obesity is tied to a poor diet - right? Now combine that with the fact that our economy is increasingly becoming one where the majority of the jobs are sedentary?

That's because you are failing to pull the head out of your ass. I have said both times I have commented that yes children are receiving aid both in school and out of it. The aid that the child gets out of schools by LA County is geared towards the whole family, this is because usually the child is the only legal one in the family.

CYBERFX1024
05-30-2014, 07:43 PM
Obsesity is common among poor people, because they can't afford healthier food options. With my income, for example, I can afford to buy the leanest ground beef or choose ground turkey instead, if that's what I feel like using. Poor people, on the other hand, have to buy cheapest ground beef which, I believe, is only 70% lean.

Ramen noodles... half the calories are fat. We don't have to mention vienna sausages, potted beef, Spam/Treet, and all the crap poor people eat because they can't afford anything else.

Obesity is only common for poor people here in the USA because we provide them with food stamps and they make poor choices on how they eat. While in the rest of the world the poor are living on significantly less than other people.

Rusty Jones
05-30-2014, 07:49 PM
Obesity is only common for poor people here in the USA because we provide them with food stamps and they make poor choices on how they eat. While in the rest of the world the poor are living on significantly less than other people.

Looks like you've never been poor before.

GeoDude
05-30-2014, 08:36 PM
Looks like you've never been poor before.

Despite all the hype - I don't think the standard of living for the poor in America is substantially different than it is in (most) third world countries. Yes obviously its worse for people in Somalia, but when it comes to safety, living standards, access healthcare, etc - about the same.

Measure Man
05-30-2014, 08:42 PM
Despite all the hype - I don't think the standard of living for the poor in America is substantially different than it is in (most) third world countries. Yes obviously its worse for people in Somalia, but when it comes to safety, living standards, access healthcare, etc - about the same.

I know right...I mean a Presidential campaign promising toilets would probably run just as well here at it is in India!

What "third world" countries are you talking about? Cuz I'm thinking you don't know what poor looks like in third world countries.

sandsjames
05-30-2014, 09:30 PM
Despite all the hype - I don't think the standard of living for the poor in America is substantially different than it is in (most) third world countries. Yes obviously its worse for people in Somalia, but when it comes to safety, living standards, access healthcare, etc - about the same.

I will say, unequivocally, that I've never disagreed with a statement as much as I agree with this. Having spent a fair amount of time in a couple locations, there is no doubt that there is a huge difference.

Part of that may be because of the infrastructure Americans (even homeless) have access to. The 3rd world countries don't even have the things we associate with the poor here...trash cans to get food from, bridges to sleep under, access to an ER, etc. I'm not claiming that our poor have it good, by no means. Just stating that our poor wouldn't last a month with the living conditions in the 3rd world countries.

TJMAC77SP
05-30-2014, 10:04 PM
I know right...I mean a Presidential campaign promising toilets would probably run just as well here at it is in India!

What "third world" countries are you talking about? Cuz I'm thinking you don't know what poor looks like in third world countries.

I was wondering the same thing. There is poverty and then there is Fucking Poverty. India was a good example. 24 hours anywhere there will do the trick.

GeoDude
05-30-2014, 11:26 PM
I know right...I mean a Presidential campaign promising toilets would probably run just as well here at it is in India!

What "third world" countries are you talking about? Cuz I'm thinking you don't know what poor looks like in third world countries.

This post reminds me of an American Heritage Foundation report I read once insisting that poor Americans aren't actually poor because they have refrigerators. To me - its a cop out - just because there's some countries worse off doesn't mean we don't have an embarrassing levels of incarceration and violence, and a joke of a healthcare system.


I was wondering the same thing. There is poverty and then there is Fucking Poverty. India was a good example. 24 hours anywhere there will do the trick.

Well I don't know about "anywhere" - I'm sure being a rich person in India is just dandy. Just as being rich here is nice.


I will say, unequivocally, that I've never disagreed with a statement as much as I agree with this. Having spent a fair amount of time in a couple locations, there is no doubt that there is a huge difference.

Part of that may be because of the infrastructure Americans (even homeless) have access to. The 3rd world countries don't even have the things we associate with the poor here...trash cans to get food from, bridges to sleep under, access to an ER, etc. I'm not claiming that our poor have it good, by no means. Just stating that our poor wouldn't last a month with the living conditions in the 3rd world countries.

And what happens when this infrastructure has rotted away?

sandsjames
05-31-2014, 12:52 AM
This post reminds me of an American Heritage Foundation report I read once insisting that poor Americans aren't actually poor because they have refrigerators. To me - its a cop out - just because there's some countries worse off doesn't mean we don't have an embarrassing levels of incarceration and violence, and a joke of a healthcare system. Somebody always has it worse. Our poor have it very bad and I wouldn't want that life, no doubt. But it's just not the same.




And what happens when this infrastructure has rotted away?And what happens when aliens attack and take all our water?

Measure Man
05-31-2014, 01:04 AM
This post reminds me of an American Heritage Foundation report I read once insisting that poor Americans aren't actually poor because they have refrigerators. To me - its a cop out - just because there's some countries worse off doesn't mean we don't have an embarrassing levels of incarceration and violence, and a joke of a healthcare system.

I'm not sure why post would've reminded you of that...although, it is true that many parts of the world people never even dream of having a refrigerator.

I don't think that means America doesn't have poor people...but to think that the poor "in most third world countries" is overhyped and about the same as our poor in incredibly naïve.


Well I don't know about "anywhere" - I'm sure being a rich person in India is just dandy. Just as being rich here is nice.

Yes, in most third world countries, the rich are very very rich and the poor are very very poor. Comparing our rich to their rich, sure...both are doing nicely.


And what happens when this infrastructure has rotted away?

garhkal
05-31-2014, 07:02 AM
You realize of course that obesity is tied to a poor diet - right? Now combine that with the fact that our economy is increasingly becoming one where the majority of the jobs are sedentary?

When my current neighbour was living pay check to paycheck he ate like many poor do, but he still ate healthy. Sandwiches, salad. It can be done.

GeoDude
05-31-2014, 02:43 PM
When my current neighbour was living pay check to paycheck he ate like many poor do, but he still ate healthy. Sandwiches, salad. It can be done.

There is a difference between being poor and living "paycheck to paycheck".

GeoDude
05-31-2014, 02:46 PM
Somebody always has it worse. Our poor have it very bad and I wouldn't want that life, no doubt. But it's just not the same.

The same as what? Are we going to paint the entire developing world with the same brush? Are we going to ignore all of our problems under the false pretense that we are the best country in the world - when in reality we lag behind almost all of our peers in every regard except military spending?


And what happens when aliens attack and take all our water?

It would cost over 3.6 trillion dollars to repair our national infrastructure - including highways, utilities, etc. and its only getting worse.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/six-ways-america-is-like-a-third-world-country-20140305

The problem with the increasing wealth inequality is that not only is most of the revenue locked up in the top 5% - they have no incentive to contribute back to society. Why should I spend money on the highway system or public transportation if I have a private jet? Why would I care about what medical care other people get when I can hire any specialist anywhere in the world regardless of price? Why would I care what kind of education poor brown kids get when I can send my kids to the ritziest private schools in the country?

sandsjames
05-31-2014, 03:03 PM
The same as what? Are we going to paint the entire developing world with the same brush? Are we going to ignore all of our problems under the false pretense that we are the best country in the world - when in reality we lag behind almost all of our peers in every regard except military spending? I'm not ignoring our problems. Was just commenting on you saying that the poor in America and the poor in 3rd world countries have the same problems.



It would cost over 3.6 trillion dollars to repair our national infrastructure - including highways, utilities, etc. and its only getting worse.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/six-ways-america-is-like-a-third-world-country-20140305

The problem with the increasing wealth inequality is that not only is most of the revenue locked up in the top 5% - they have no incentive to contribute back to society. Why should I spend money on the highway system or public transportation if I have a private jet? Why would I care about what medical care other people get when I can hire any specialist anywhere in the world regardless of price? Why would I care what kind of education poor brown kids get when I can send my kids to the ritziest private schools in the country?Ok...I hope you realize that my mention of aliens was a response to your "what if" situation...nothing more. Wasn't an opinion about who should get what...

And, you are pointing out exactly what I've been talking about for the last couple weeks. We're never gonna get the rich to give up their money. We know that the government can't take care of anyone. That leaves it up to those of us who can help and want to help to do so.

Greg
05-31-2014, 04:03 PM
The same as what? Are we going to paint the entire developing world with the same brush? Are we going to ignore all of our problems under the false pretense that we are the best country in the world - when in reality we lag behind almost all of our peers in every regard except military spending?


It would cost over 3.6 trillion dollars to repair our national infrastructure - including highways, utilities, etc. and its only getting worse.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/six-ways-america-is-like-a-third-world-country-20140305

The problem with the increasing wealth inequality is that not only is most of the revenue locked up in the top 5% - they have no incentive to contribute back to society. Why should I spend money on the highway system or public transportation if I have a private jet? Why would I care about what medical care other people get when I can hire any specialist anywhere in the world regardless of price? Why would I care what kind of education poor brown kids get when I can send my kids to the ritziest private schools in the country?

And your suggestions are...

GeoDude
05-31-2014, 06:33 PM
And your suggestions are...

Well to start we could start spending money to get our own house in order, instead of invading other people's houses and telling them how to do business.

Greg
05-31-2014, 06:54 PM
Well to start we could start spending money to get our own house in order, instead of invading other people's houses and telling them how to do business.

Agreed, but old habits are hard to break, especially when egos are involved.

In the meantime, as an informed, voting citizen, I will try my best to hold the elected representatives responsible.

sandsjames
05-31-2014, 07:43 PM
Agreed, but old habits are hard to break, especially when egos are involved.

In the meantime, as an informed, voting citizen, I will try my best to hold the elected representatives responsible.

How?.......

Greg
05-31-2014, 11:09 PM
Agreed, but old habits are hard to break, especially when egos are involved.

In the meantime, as an informed, voting citizen, I will try my best to hold the elected representatives responsible.


How?.......

Let me guess, you have the perception that one person, one vote is of no importance?

Yes, those boulders are very difficult to move up-hill by yourself.

sandsjames
06-01-2014, 12:33 AM
Let me guess, you have the perception that one person, one vote is of no importance?

Yes, those boulders are very difficult to move up-hill by yourself.

Nope, don't believe that at all. Not sure how that's holding anyone accountable. I can vote for the candidates I prefer. That doesn't mean they will get elected and, even if they do, that doesn't mean they won't do what every other politician does when they get in office.

The problem is that people have been told how important it is to vote. So, they vote, but do nothing else to make things better. Really, voting is a pretty lazy way to hold anyone accountable.

TJMAC77SP
06-01-2014, 04:52 PM
Well I don't know about "anywhere" - I'm sure being a rich person in India is just dandy. Just as being rich here is nice.


You not knowing is obvious and this ignores the faulty comparison you made. That I am sure you do know.

CYBERFX1024
06-01-2014, 11:30 PM
Looks like you've never been poor before.

No not really. I was blessed with a family that was able to provide for my brother and myself. We were not rich by any means but we had food on the plate. I have had to live paycheck to paycheck before and it sucks. That's why I worked my ass off to put my family and myself into a better position. Now I am grossing just less than a $100k stateside.

CYBERFX1024
06-01-2014, 11:40 PM
15
Despite all the hype - I don't think the standard of living for the poor in America is substantially different than it is in (most) third world countries. Yes obviously its worse for people in Somalia, but when it comes to safety, living standards, access healthcare, etc - about the same.

I am sorry but you can obviously tell you have NEVER lived anywhere else in the world just by this statement. I have lived and traveled throughout Asia and there is a HUGE difference between the poor here and the poor there.
My wife is from a poor province in the Philippines and I was able to actually go there and live with them for a few months. They lived with dirt floors in their house, luckily they had a actual concrete area to sit down to use the bathroom down a hole.
They can't just go to the clinic to seek help, and if they do they will sit there and wait literally 12 hours to be seen if at all. Even then the hospital/clinic won't let them leave until they can scrounge up the money for the stay. There is even instances where a parent has had to steal the body of their son/daughter back from the hospital after they have died. Because the hospital won't give the body until they pay off the balance.

We have free schooling in the USA and even provide free/reduced lunch for those that are lacking financially. This is the case even in summertime now, where kids can go to the school to get a free lunch. While in the Philippines they technically have "free" schools, but if you can't pay the fees required by the school then you can't go. The schools don't provide free food their at all. The child is required to go home and eat during lunchtime, then they are required to go back to school to finish the day. If the child can't get food well then it's not the schools fault.
A large minority of poor kids don't even finish elementary or middle school due to having to quit to help their parents support the family. This is because on average the poor family have more kids than a richer family. This is common throughout SE Asia, and this is because the parents want the children to grow up and take care of them when they are older.

Sorry but this picture is of the actually poor people in the Third World. Get a good look.

GeoDude
06-02-2014, 07:55 AM
....

I'm quoting you - however this response applies equally to the other members who posted in response to me.

Some people argue that we are approaching third world status - I am presenting the argument that we are already in third world status. Now that may seem strange - but I'm defining this in economic terms. Sure - we're not as bad off as Mexico - where all those people at your school escaped for a better future here in America (Or at least not yet) - but lets look at what makes a country "third world".

The first factor is extreme income inequality. Once this has been established - everything else goes to shit - the question is just how long. While one could argue its possible to avert third world status even with income inequality - you won't find a third world country on earth that DOESN'T have extreme rich and extreme poor.

Sandjames mentioned infrastructure - on that point I absolutely agree. In our industrial revolution, and even more so during the New Deal - we spent vast sums of capital building our national infrastructure. That's simply not true anymore. The vast majority of our capital today is destined to remain untaxed and become squirrelled away in some offshore bank account. Certain developing countries - like China - are actually smart enough to kick start their own industrial growth, and have actually already surpassed us in terms of infrastructure. Not only is our infrastructure not improving - its on the decline. As I mentioned in an earlier post, with extreme income inequality - there is simply no motivation for the rich to cough up the cash to keep the country running - they have their own private security, transportation, education, etc - they aren't on the same boat as the rest of us.

The Chinese are spending their money on bullet trains for the masses and new factories. We are spending ours on unwinnable wars and defective fighter planes to fight a non-existent enemy.

Many of the symptoms of third world status - namely poverty - are being delayed by the accumulation of goods. Almost all low income households in the USA still have basic things like refrigeration, electricity, running water, etc. All of these nice things were produced while the US was still a welfare state - right now we're in free fall =- it is likely that this country will be indistinguishable from Mexico or Columbia in a few generations - a small group of extremely rich - surrounded by the slums of the 99%. Why do you think the far right is constantly assaulting the social programs which are (temporarily) preventing mass starvation? They see what is coming - and they cannot contain their excitement for it!

sandsjames
06-02-2014, 11:25 AM
I'm quoting you - however this response applies equally to the other members who posted in response to me.

Some people argue that we are approaching third world status - I am presenting the argument that we are already in third world status. Now that may seem strange - but I'm defining this in economic terms. Sure - we're not as bad off as Mexico - where all those people at your school escaped for a better future here in America (Or at least not yet) - but lets look at what makes a country "third world".

The first factor is extreme income inequality. Once this has been established - everything else goes to shit - the question is just how long. While one could argue its possible to avert third world status even with income inequality - you won't find a third world country on earth that DOESN'T have extreme rich and extreme poor.

Sandjames mentioned infrastructure - on that point I absolutely agree. In our industrial revolution, and even more so during the New Deal - we spent vast sums of capital building our national infrastructure. That's simply not true anymore. The vast majority of our capital today is destined to remain untaxed and become squirrelled away in some offshore bank account. Certain developing countries - like China - are actually smart enough to kick start their own industrial growth, and have actually already surpassed us in terms of infrastructure. Not only is our infrastructure not improving - its on the decline. As I mentioned in an earlier post, with extreme income inequality - there is simply no motivation for the rich to cough up the cash to keep the country running - they have their own private security, transportation, education, etc - they aren't on the same boat as the rest of us.

The Chinese are spending their money on bullet trains for the masses and new factories. We are spending ours on unwinnable wars and defective fighter planes to fight a non-existent enemy.

Many of the symptoms of third world status - namely poverty - are being delayed by the accumulation of goods. Almost all low income households in the USA still have basic things like refrigeration, electricity, running water, etc. All of these nice things were produced while the US was still a welfare state - right now we're in free fall =- it is likely that this country will be indistinguishable from Mexico or Columbia in a few generations - a small group of extremely rich - surrounded by the slums of the 99%. Why do you think the far right is constantly assaulting the social programs which are (temporarily) preventing mass starvation? They see what is coming - and they cannot contain their excitement for it!

I think the biggest difference is the middle class. Third world countries have rich and poor. We have an in between. This isn't going to change any time soon.

Rusty Jones
06-02-2014, 12:37 PM
No not really. I was blessed with a family that was able to provide for my brother and myself. We were not rich by any means but we had food on the plate. I have had to live paycheck to paycheck before and it sucks. That's why I worked my ass off to put my family and myself into a better position. Now I am grossing just less than a $100k stateside.

So then you don't know what you're talking about when you spoke of what poor people eat, and why they eat it.

sandsjames
06-02-2014, 12:46 PM
So then you don't know what you're talking about when you spoke of what poor people eat, and why they eat it.

Do you? And, if so, how did you get out of that situation to become successful?

Rusty Jones
06-02-2014, 01:16 PM
Do you? And, if so, how did you get out of that situation to become successful?

1. I've given my life story on here far more times than I care to count.

2. Your second question is irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make.

That point, being this: you can't assess someone's financial situation based on their weight. Unhealthy fattening foods are the cheapest, and it's what poor people can afford. CYBERFX attempted to assault the character of poor people's diet choices by stating why they eat what they eat and, lo and behold, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

sandsjames
06-02-2014, 01:38 PM
1. I've given my life story on here far more times than I care to count. Guess I never paid attention


2. Your second question is irrelent to the point I'm trying to make.

That point, being this: you can't assess someone's financial situation based on their weight. Unhealthy fattening foods are the cheapest, and it's what poor people can afford. CYBERFX attempted to assault the character of poor people's diet choices by stating why they eat what they eat and, lo and behold, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

This is so true. It's no different at the chow hall. I can go grab a burger, fries, and a coke at the chow hall for $2.50. If I want baked chicken and a salad with some juice it's over $5.

Though it is pretty cheap to cook at home if you want to eat nothing but rice and beans. Not saying it's practical, but it can be done.

Rusty Jones
06-02-2014, 02:33 PM
Guess I never paid attention



This is so true. It's no different at the chow hall. I can go grab a burger, fries, and a coke at the chow hall for $2.50. If I want baked chicken and a salad with some juice it's over $5.

Though it is pretty cheap to cook at home if you want to eat nothing but rice and beans. Not saying it's practical, but it can be done.

All those carbs that rice is loaded with doesn't help either. You'd still get fat off of that.

sandsjames
06-02-2014, 02:41 PM
All those carbs that rice is loaded with doesn't help either. You'd still get fat off of that.

Asian cultures may disagree. Now all those carbs with no exercise is an issue. Though the same could be said for the fast food.

And I wasn't really talking about how healthy the food was. It was more of a comment on why poor people eat what they eat. If it was about cost, then there are several other options than just fast food.

CYBERFX1024
06-02-2014, 02:44 PM
That point, being this: you can't assess someone's financial situation based on their weight. Unhealthy fattening foods are the cheapest, and it's what poor people can afford. CYBERFX attempted to assault the character of poor people's diet choices by stating why they eat what they eat and, lo and behold, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Well alot of people can afford anything these days the way that food stamps/ebt cards are given out and accepted almost everywhere nowadays. I do know what I am talking about ok, just because you want to spout some sanctimonious bullsh*t doesn't make you the bees knees in anything. The majority of poor people here in AMERICA that are obese are that way because of what they eat, you actually have to work to not be able to eat in the USA. It's proven numerous different times that people on EBT cards will buy whatever they can on it at the local Mcdonalds or Jack in the Box, or some easy to cook microwaveable meal at home. All this because they don't want to take the time to cook a good meal.

CYBERFX1024
06-02-2014, 02:47 PM
All those carbs that rice is loaded with doesn't help either. You'd still get fat off of that.

I agree with you on this one. Trust me I know you get fat off of eating alot of rice. My wife is having to scale back eating alot of rice because she is working on losing her pregnancy weight, with that being said it's almost unheard of in SE Asia that a person doesn't eat rice. So her family is giving her alot of sh*t because she is not eating rice.

CYBERFX1024
06-02-2014, 02:49 PM
Asian cultures may disagree. Now all those carbs with no exercise is an issue. Though the same could be said for the fast food.
And I wasn't really talking about how healthy the food was. It was more of a comment on why poor people eat what they eat. If it was about cost, then there are several other options than just fast food.

I have no problem with people wanting to use their ebt cards to get food at the grocery store, but my problem starts when they are able to use it at fast food joints. This we can pretty much all agree on is that they aren't any good for someone's health.

sandsjames
06-02-2014, 02:50 PM
Well alot of people can afford anything these days the way that food stamps/ebt cards are given out and accepted almost everywhere nowadays. I do know what I am talking about ok, just because you want to spout some sanctimonious bullsh*t doesn't make you the bees knees in anything. The majority of poor people here in AMERICA that are obese are that way because of what they eat, you actually have to work to not be able to eat in the USA. It's proven numerous different times that people on EBT cards will buy whatever they can on it at the local Mcdonalds or Jack in the Box, or some easy to cook microwaveable meal at home. All this because they don't want to take the time to cook a good meal.

And??? Is it up to us to tell people what's best for them and their families? Is it costing any more of your tax dollars? Do you think that they will recieve more money if they spend it all? It's not like the military where, in order to keep your budget you have to spend more. Once the stamps are used up and the EBT card is empty it's not an automatic refill.

Rusty Jones
06-02-2014, 02:55 PM
Asian cultures may disagree. Now all those carbs with no exercise is an issue. Though the same could be said for the fast food.

Asian cultures don't eat just rice. They've got enough seafood and vegetables to go with that rice, so that they don't have to eat a big plate of rice to get full.


And I wasn't really talking about how healthy the food was. It was more of a comment on why poor people eat what they eat. If it was about cost, then there are several other options than just fast food.

Like what? I gave examples earlier... vienna sausages, ramen noodles, potted beef, Spam, etc, etc. Ramen noodles, believe it or not, is 50% fat. All that other shit, like vienna sausage and Spam? You might as well be biting into a big block of fat tissue. The ramen noodles in a cup, you can get three for a dollar. A can of vienna sausage is only fifty cents. Spam... I don't know what the price is, but I do know that Treet - a competiting product - is even cheaper than Spam. Other crap that poor people have to eat... the big can of ravioli... hell, look at Dinty Moore beef stew? Ever had that? As soon as you open the can, there's a hard white disk of fat floating at the top. You have to be careful in removing it, or else you'll break it into pieces and they'll sink down with all the other fat that's in there.

Even if you want to make Hamburger Helper... if you're poor, you can't afford the leanest ground beef on the shelf or ground turkey. Nope; you've gotta buy that cheap 70% lean crap.

Bottomline... it cannot be argued that someone is doing just fine in the food department, just because they're fat.

sandsjames
06-02-2014, 02:57 PM
Bottomline... it cannot be argued that someone is doing just fine in the food department, just because they're fat.No argument here.

By the way, all those foods you mentioned are AWESOME!

CYBERFX1024
06-02-2014, 03:04 PM
Asian cultures don't eat just rice. They've got enough seafood and vegetables to go with that rice, so that they don't have to eat a big plate of rice to get full.
Like what? I gave examples earlier... vienna sausages, ramen noodles, potted beef, Spam, etc, etc. Ramen noodles, believe it or not, is 50% fat. All that other shit, like vienna sausage and Spam? You might as well be biting into a big block of fat tissue. The ramen noodles in a cup, you can get three for a dollar. A can of vienna sausage is only fifty cents. Spam... I don't know what the price is, but I do know that Treet - a competiting product - is even cheaper than Spam. Other crap that poor people have to eat... the big can of ravioli... hell, look at Dinty Moore beef stew? Ever had that? As soon as you open the can, there's a hard white disk of fat floating at the top. You have to be careful in removing it, or else you'll break it into pieces and they'll sink down with all the other fat that's in there.

Even if you want to make Hamburger Helper... if you're poor, you can't afford the leanest ground beef on the shelf or ground turkey. Nope; you've gotta buy that cheap 70% lean crap.
Bottomline... it cannot be argued that someone is doing just fine in the food department, just because they're fat.

I know Asians eat a variety of food and I have lived their enough to know it for a fact. The main cuisine in the Philippines is fish. It could be grilled, fried, dried, raw. They don't care as long as it tastes good. Baboy (Pork) is one more rung up the ladder, and equals Manok (Chicken) on how they eat it because they literally eat everything of fish, pork, goat, and the chicken. The meat that costs the most to eat is beef and they hardly ever eat that.

I never said that people on ebt cards should not be given choices on what to eat, but that they should be making better choices. Hell the price of beef is going up so much that I might have to drop that off the menu for my family as well. I cook the Hamburger Helper for my family but I sacrifice to make sure I get the 93% lean beef. That's because I am trying for my family to eat better with less fat.

I never said that people are doing just fine because they are fat. I just said that poor people here in the USA have it good considering people in other parts of the world. The last part I agree with you on as well.

CYBERFX1024
06-02-2014, 03:05 PM
No argument here.

By the way, all those foods you mentioned are AWESOME!

Correct. I am not going to lie I didn't cook last night, but I did microwave a pizza for me and watched GOT. That was good.

hustonj
06-02-2014, 04:16 PM
Bottomline... it cannot be argued that someone is doing just fine in the food department, just because they're fat.

But, your bottomline is patently false.

Of course it (pick your it, the target of this indenfinite article is actually irrelevant) can be argued. There amy not be material enough (or even any) to support or prove the position, but that doesn't mean it can't be argued.

This kind of agressive falsehood hurts your position far more than it could ever help it.

Please note that I'm not taking a side in the discussion, just noting a piece of amazingly poor presentation.

Rusty Jones
06-02-2014, 04:23 PM
But, your bottomline is patently false.

Of course it (pick your it, the target of this indenfinite article is actually irrelevant) can be argued. There amy not be material enough (or even any) to support or prove the position, but that doesn't mean it can't be argued.

This kind of agressive falsehood hurts your position far more than it could ever help it.

Please note that I'm not taking a side in the discussion, just noting a piece of amazingly poor presentation.

Ah, yes... the "you're wrong" without any ability to back it up. You don't like what I'm saying, and you can't muster up the facts to argue against it. Hence the meaningless crap you just posted.

Rusty Jones
06-02-2014, 04:24 PM
Garkhal, I think you may be off the hook. This pure idiocy right here, I think, just might be my new signature:


There amy not be material enough (or even any) to support or prove the position, but that doesn't mean it can't be argued.

hustonj
06-02-2014, 06:56 PM
Ah, yes... the "you're wrong" without any ability to back it up. You don't like what I'm saying, and you can't muster up the facts to argue against it. Hence the meaningless crap you just posted.

Hunh? Is your reading comprhension that much worse than my typing skills?

I concluded by noting that I wasn't taking a side in the discussion at hand.

I called you out for the falsehood that a bad argument can not be argued. ANY argument can be made, whether it is true, false, good, bad, supported or not. That is ALL that I said.

Not every argument SHOULD be made, but that is a completely different statement than the one you made, now, isn't it?

Exactly how is that arguing against your position in the thread topic?

Rusty Jones
06-02-2014, 07:07 PM
Hunh? Is your reading comprhension that much worse than my typing skills?

Fishing for insults, bud?


I concluded by noting that I wasn't taking a side in the discussion at hand.

And you're full of shit. You've got a problem with ME, based on the stance that I'm taking.


I called you out for the falsehood that a bad argument can not be argued. ANY argument can be made, whether it is true, false, good, bad, supported or not. That is ALL that I said.

Not every argument SHOULD be made, but that is a completely different statement than the one you made, now, isn't it?

What in the FUCK is this fuckery HERE?

The only reason why you claim to not be taking a side, is because you'd be on the losing one.

Lemme ask you something, chump - how old are you?

hustonj
06-02-2014, 07:53 PM
Fishing for insults, bud?

Nope, they seem to come fr free when trying to make a light-hearted poke about a false statement which is apparantly false only because of hyperbole.


And you're full of shit. You've got a problem with ME, based on the stance that I'm taking.

Nope, had a good BM just a little bit ago. I also have no idea who you are. I seem to have made a mistake to assume that I could treat you like an adult with military experience, however. You sem to have no ability to accept a ribbing at all.


What in the FUCK is this fuckery HERE?

Logic and English. Strange that you don't recognize them, don't you think?


The only reason why you claim to not be taking a side, is because you'd be on the losing one.

Do you feel better by assigning me as your enemy? Does that give you a warm glow?

I don't really care about the discussion you were having. I do care about blatantly false statements. Every argument CAN be presented. Many should not. You explicit said that an argumet could NOT be presented. That is a falsehood. It CAN be presented whether you like it or not. That has nothing to do with whether it SHOULD be presented, or whether it is even relevant to the discussion. I don't even know what the argument that prompted the falsehood was. I just recognized the falsehood (one of those extreme "always" statements that people love to make when being emotional instead of thoughtful, so it was easy to spot).


Lemme ask you something, chump - how old are you?

49. 25 years served on active duty. You?

Oh, and I'm a computer programmer by training and experience, and my parents (now retired) were an English teacher and a computer programmer, too. Syntax and semantics are things I have been taught to work with and notice since birth, basically.

The statement you made that I responded to is a blatant falsehood. That is all I have said, and all that I have tried to say.

So far you have tried to make this be about me attacking you personally and about me wanting to disprove your position in a discussion that hadn't been holding my interest. I really don't know, nor do I care at this point, what the original discussion was about. I just want to see you act like the adult you are claiming to be.

Oh, and please stop using the insulting nicknames. I am providing you a minimal level of respect despite your behavior, and I would appreciate you doing the same.

Rusty Jones
06-02-2014, 09:29 PM
Could've fooled me about your age. You're disrupting a conversation with such petty bullshit, as whether or not something can be debated. And you're even asserting that it can be, even if the person debating it doesn't have the facts to back up their claim.

Look, I'm finished with your dumb ass argument. If you want to continue on with this shit, find someone else.

CYBERFX1024
06-02-2014, 09:29 PM
But, your bottomline is patently false.
Of course it (pick your it, the target of this indenfinite article is actually irrelevant) can be argued. There amy not be material enough (or even any) to support or prove the position, but that doesn't mean it can't be argued.
This kind of agressive falsehood hurts your position far more than it could ever help it.
Please note that I'm not taking a side in the discussion, just noting a piece of amazingly poor presentation.

Dafuq he just say?

hustonj
06-03-2014, 04:15 PM
Could've fooled me about your age. You're disrupting a conversation with such petty bullshit, as whether or not something can be debated. And you're even asserting that it can be, even if the person debating it doesn't have the facts to back up their claim.

Look, I'm finished with your dumb ass argument. If you want to continue on with this shit, find someone else.

This is the internet. Conversations become multi-threaded with disruptive sidelines all the time without the core conversation actually stopping, unless the particpants in the core conversation really didn't care about it either. As the original conversation seems to have stopped, that says something about the actual level of investment in the topic (averaged between the two conflicting positions, of course), doesn't it?

I made no argument. I noted a falsehood. Heck, I've even noted that the falsehood was probably provided as hyperbole and not an intentional lie. You've been providing personal attacks and insults in response to the identification of your false statement. There hasn't been an argument, as there's been no attempt to exchange ideas and supporting information. There's been no attempt to disprove statements, either.

Edit:

I've been trying to provide information. You've been insulting and abusive and have made no attempt to be or do anything else.

TJMAC77SP
06-03-2014, 04:44 PM
This is the internet. Conversations become multi-threaded with disruptive sidelines all the time without the core conversation actually stopping, unless the particpants in the core conversation really didn't care about it either. As the original conversation seems to have stopped, that says something about the actual level of investment in the topic (averaged between the two conflicting positions, of course), doesn't it?

I made no argument. I noted a falsehood. Heck, I've even noted that the falsehood was probably provided as hyperbole and not an intentional lie. You've been providing personal attacks and insults in response to the identification of your false statement. There hasn't been an argument, as there's been no attempt to exchange ideas and supporting information. There's been no attempt to disprove statements, either.

Edit:

I've been trying to provide information. You've been insulting and abusive and have made no attempt to be or do anything else.

Be thankful he didn't accuse you of wanting to perform some homosexual act on him..........that is the usual shtick

Rusty Jones
06-03-2014, 04:48 PM
Be thankful he didn't accuse you of wanting to perform some homosexual act on him..........that is the usual shtick

What, you mean hustonj is a man? Shit, the only reason I didn't go there, was because I thought it was a woman the whole time. I mean... hustonj sure does come off like a bitch, doesn't he?

TJMAC77SP
06-03-2014, 06:29 PM
What, you mean hustonj is a man? Shit, the only reason I didn't go there, was because I thought it was a woman the whole time. I mean... hustonj sure does come off like a bitch, doesn't he?

Actually I don't know what sex Houston is. You just can't help yourself can you? I do know how you come off though.

Rusty Jones
06-03-2014, 06:46 PM
Actually I don't know what sex Houston is. You just can't help yourself can you? I do know how you come off though.

As his pimp, if neither of you two watch it. ;)

Capt Alfredo
06-03-2014, 11:53 PM
GeoDude has been banned for one week for making a homophobic slur.

But it's ok for Rusty to call someone a b!+ch? I'm confused.

sandsjames
06-04-2014, 12:01 AM
But it's ok for Rusty to call someone a b!+ch? I'm confused.

Where have you been for the last couple years???? He's allowed to not only do that, but tell them to perform sexual favors for him, etc.

Please remember, though, that the first rule of bannings is that you don't discuss bannings.

Also, please notice the continued misunderstanding and misuse of the word "homophobic". "Phobic" refers to a fear. A "slur" related to homosexuals does not mean that one has a "fear" of them, of being around them, or interacting with them on a normal, everyday basis.

CYBERFX1024
06-04-2014, 02:22 AM
As his pimp, if neither of you two watch it. ;)

Laughed my ass off on this one.

Rusty Jones
06-04-2014, 11:52 AM
Where have you been for the last couple years???? He's allowed to not only do that, but tell them to perform sexual favors for him, etc.

Yeah, of course. Because I've never been banned for THAT before; nope. Not me. Never been to banned camp before.

Rusty Jones
06-04-2014, 12:05 PM
In all honesty, it's probably been at least a year since I've done all that stuff that TJ and SJ like to keep bringing up. They must want me to start doing that again or something.

sandsjames
06-04-2014, 12:17 PM
In all honesty, it's probably been at least a year since I've done all that stuff that TJ and SJ like to keep bringing up. They must want me to start doing that again or something.Actually it's just the opposite. I'd love to see you stop doing it. It's a shame that someone who is as intelligent as you are has to resort to name calling and insults whenever something gets your ire up. And mainly what is does is take the focus off of the many great comments you make.

Rusty Jones
06-04-2014, 12:24 PM
Actually it's just the opposite. I'd love to see you stop doing it. It's a shame that someone who is as intelligent as you are has to resort to name calling and insults whenever something gets your ire up. And mainly what is does is take the focus off of the many great comments you make.

Then why do you both keep bringing it up?

sandsjames
06-04-2014, 12:44 PM
Then why do you both keep bringing it up?

I didn't bring it up. You brought it up. I simply brought up a fact about inconsistency when it comes to the mods banning people. Do I think you should be banned for what you said? Nope. And I didn't see Geodude's post but I can't imagine that it had anything harsher than what you said. That's the only point I'm making.

Rusty Jones
06-04-2014, 12:53 PM
I didn't bring it up. You brought it up. I simply brought up a fact about inconsistency when it comes to the mods banning people. Do I think you should be banned for what you said? Nope. And I didn't see Geodude's post but I can't imagine that it had anything harsher than what you said. That's the only point I'm making.

Actually, TJ did. But you've done it fairly recently yourself.

sandsjames
06-04-2014, 12:56 PM
Actually, TJ did. But you've done it fairly recently yourself.

Ok...why is it that even when I'm agreeing with you you still feel the need to be confrontational?

TJMAC77SP
06-04-2014, 01:42 PM
In all honesty, it's probably been at least a year since I've done all that stuff that TJ and SJ like to keep bringing up. They must want me to start doing that again or something.

Yet another lie. You have not only done that for more than a year, I would also guess that you did it using your numerous alt accounts.

Rusty Jones
06-04-2014, 01:56 PM
Yet another lie. You have not only done that for more than a year, I would also guess that you did it using your numerous alt accounts.

I didn't deny that the period of time that I've done it exceeds a year time span. I said that it's probably been at least year SINCE I've done it.

If you can dig up a post where I've done it less than a year ago, I'll retract my statement. Good luck.

TJMAC77SP
06-04-2014, 02:02 PM
I didn't deny that the period of time that I've done it exceeds a year time span. I said that it's probably been at least year SINCE I've done it.

If you can dig up a post where I've done it less than a year ago, I'll retract my statement. Good luck.

Ok, I'll give you that (because I am not seriously going to review a year's worth of your posts).

I will admit that the thought of you retracting any statement is humorous.

Want to talk about the Harris Teeter on Colonial Ave in Norfolk not taking food stamps etc?

Rusty Jones
06-04-2014, 02:09 PM
Ok, I'll give you that (because I am not seriously going to review a year's worth of your posts).

I will admit that the thought of you retracting any statement is humorous.

Want to talk about the Harris Teeter on Colonial Ave in Norfolk not taking food stamps etc?

Interesting note on that... like I said, I can only go by what I saw when I was there, in 2011 or 2012.

However, it looks like Harris Teeter was bought out by Kroger since then. It's entirely possible that policy changes may have resulted.

TJMAC77SP
06-04-2014, 02:58 PM
Interesting note on that... like I said, I can only go by what I saw when I was there, in 2011 or 2012.

However, it looks like Harris Teeter was bought out by Kroger since then. It's entirely possible that policy changes may have resulted.

The Kroger buyout didn't occur until January of this year. Harris Teeter corporate policy has always been (and remains) that they accept food stamps and every other form of entitlement program payouts. There was never a time when that store did not accept these forms of payment.