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BadBender
05-21-2014, 04:09 AM
This morning on my way into work I was randomly selected for a vehicle search while driving onto base. I don’t mind this, I’ve had it done before so it wasn’t a big deal. After I pull over to where I was directed to go the NCO with the dog recites a prepared statement, something about being randomly selected, base commander, ending with “do you consent to being searched?”. I smiled and said “I do, however what if I don’t?”. The NCO had this dumbfounded look on his face, as if no one had ever asked that question before. As I am not SF I am curious, what would happen if I totally refused to be searched? I expect it’ll happen either way but what is “supposed” to happen? I've heard there is a different chain of events for military vs civilian, on what happens. In closing the whole thing only took a few minutes and I was on my way, no problems.

Sergeant eNYgma
05-21-2014, 11:07 AM
I thought someone posed that question in here awhile back but maybe my memory is hazy. I recall reading that for military if you decline they can take you into custody and search the shit anyway (At that point they assume you have something anyhow)...trying to remember what I read in that other thread but it was so long ago.

sandsjames
05-21-2014, 11:18 AM
I think it depends where they stop you and how far the jurisdiction outside the front gate is. For instance, in England, I believe the jurisdiction started at the gate. The stops were usually outside the gate, so the most they could do was deny you entry to the base. Never made much sense to me because if I were trying to get something on the base I'd just turn around and try it again another day, hoping they didn't search...wash, rinse, repeat.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
05-21-2014, 12:00 PM
If you don't consent, then they throw a bag of dope into your back seat, then tell you to get out of the vehicle so they can investigate the "suspicious" item they just noticed.

Consent or don't consent. It's your call.

Chief_KO
05-21-2014, 12:22 PM
Obviously you would not be allowed on base. And I'd guess that the security personnel would input your info into a database so the next time you try to come on base you will be searched. Wouldn't be surprised if that all got linked into a DHS/TSA/FBI database as well.
So, unless one wants a full body cavity search the next time they're out and about, I'd say "okay".

I remember when SPs would do a "courtesy" inspection of a new/used car purchased to make sure there was no drugs stashed. That was back in the 80's.

AF Comm Guy
05-21-2014, 01:53 PM
A civilian in our shop decided to be a smart ass and refused a search. The thing to remember is that when the SF guy asks if you consent, they should have your I.D. already in their hand. He refused so they kept his I.D. and barred him from base. It's a huge pain in the balls to deal with because the unit commander and wing commander get involved. The guy is already an oddball so he had to do a psych evaluation and write a letter explaining his actions. He eventually got to come back but he lost two weeks worth of pay over it. My guess is that a military member would face a similar or worse fate if they refused.

Stalwart
05-21-2014, 02:15 PM
I am pretty sure that by requesting to come on a base you consent to a search so my best guess would be that if you did not consent they would simply deny you access to the base/post etc.

If your job requires you to get on base (active duty or civilian), then your supervisor or employer will resolve you being late or missing work as a result of not being granted access (in this case, by choice) how they see fit.

TJMAC77SP
05-21-2014, 02:18 PM
Most of the posters have it right, the National Security Act of 1947 allows for the Inspection (it is not a search....legal splitting of hairs) and to deny consent would bar you from entry. For how long is situational.

BTW: It is random (despite ever-present claims to the contrary). The memo, prepared by the SF but signed by the base commander states a location, date, time window and specifics of frequency. For example, 21 May 2014, between 0900-1000 hours at the (fill in the blank) gate. Every 4th vehicle entering and every third vehicle exiting will be subject to a random vehicle inspection (RVI)

Measure Man
05-21-2014, 04:56 PM
If you do happen to have a dead body in the trunk, I'd say refuse the inspection though.

TJMAC77SP
05-21-2014, 05:03 PM
If you do happen to have a dead body in the trunk, I'd say refuse the inspection though.

Good advice.

garhkal
05-21-2014, 07:07 PM
I'd like to know what the rules are for non base entries. We have seen several news reports of road side 'inspections' or 'voluntary checkpoints (like the one recently in Reading, where armed police are there to 'lend an air of credibility' to the operation (or to my POV to lend an air of intimidation)..

SomeRandomGuy
05-21-2014, 07:23 PM
I'd like to know what the rules are for non base entries. We have seen several news reports of road side 'inspections' or 'voluntary checkpoints (like the one recently in Reading, where armed police are there to 'lend an air of credibility' to the operation (or to my POV to lend an air of intimidation)..

There is a really great blog about this on an obscure site called pickyourbattles.net It's about one man's journey to stick it to the man by making his car bullet proof and videotaping himself being as non compliant as possible at a checkpoint.

In all seriousness the laws are different everywhere but the Supreme Court precedent says checkpoints are legal if the duration is short and they are either announced or random. As far as an inspection at a checkpoint the officer needs to establish probable cause either via line of site search or some other form.

In the case of entering the base you don't have to submit to the search but they don't have to allow you entry either. They don't have a right to search your car without consent and you don't have a right to enter base property without their consent.

ChiefB
05-21-2014, 09:16 PM
If you do happen to have a dead body in the trunk, I'd say refuse the inspection though.

That also applies for a "Live body in the trunk". :rolleyes:

Gonzo432
05-22-2014, 01:07 AM
In seven years I've entered an AF Base 3 times. I have to say, it's nice to have the "Got a warrant??" option.

AFKILO7
05-22-2014, 01:42 AM
In the case of entering the base you don't have to submit to the search but they don't have to allow you entry either. They don't have a right to search your car without consent and you don't have a right to enter base property without their consent.


During an BECP (Base Entry Control Point) inspection you can say no, but then the Magistrate will then say yes for you. I had a guy do this to me when I was a patrolman working a dog. I did the whole spiel, "...you've been randomly selected...etc." I asked if he had any objections to me conducting an inspection. He said yes, I called the Flight Chief, the desk sergeant called the Magistrate (Base CC) and we had the AF Form necessary to conduct the inspection. I apprehended the driver he was transported to the desk and my dog found a gun. Good times.

Moyen Escadrille
05-22-2014, 05:28 AM
The thing a lot of people don't understand about the vehicle searches are that the cops on base don't regulate when they are done and what formula is used. The times and formula decision are made at the wing level by someone who isn't even a cop. It is then handed down to the cop CC for implimentation through there operations dudes. Oddly enough it isn't a cop ran program overall, just a program performed by the cops. I am sure the cop CC has input...really way above my head. If you don't have anything illegal then what's the issue? Let me guess. "My rights are being violated! My privacy is at risk!"....get over it.

As far as declining the search. When I had mine done the sentry read a snippet off the clip board that said I was allowed to decline the search but by order of the wing king there would be reprecussions. I think the reprecussion was revocation of base driving privledges and you end up getting searched anyways with approval from the Majistrate(sp). I think it is under Title 10 USC 1382 or something very similar in regards to the allowed searches on a federal installation...then again that might just be the trespassing portion of it, kinda fuzzy on that.

BadBender
05-22-2014, 06:13 AM
During an BECP (Base Entry Control Point) inspection you can say no, but then the Magistrate will then say yes for you. I had a guy do this to me when I was a patrolman working a dog. I did the whole spiel, "...you've been randomly selected...etc." I asked if he had any objections to me conducting an inspection. He said yes, I called the Flight Chief, the desk sergeant called the Magistrate (Base CC) and we had the AF Form necessary to conduct the inspection. I apprehended the driver he was transported to the desk and my dog found a gun. Good times.


In my situation I had nothing to hide. What got me to asking this question is when I asked the SF SSgt with the dog what happens if I refuse a search he gave me this look as if no one had ever asked him that before.

Moyen Escadrille
05-22-2014, 06:42 AM
In my situation I had nothing to hide. What got me to asking this question is when I asked the SF SSgt with the dog what happens if I refuse a search he gave me this look as if no one had ever asked him that before.

I've heard many a case in the news where the "air is free" and labeled as probable cause. It eventually led to conviction but there is probably an equal amount of cases that were tossed under that same ruling.

Anywho, no one had probably ever asked him. Most cops tend to think that people should and will do as they say. Nothing against cops but those few bad apples ruin it for the good ones.

AFKILO7
05-22-2014, 11:32 PM
In my situation I had nothing to hide. What got me to asking this question is when I asked the SF SSgt with the dog what happens if I refuse a search he gave me this look as if no one had ever asked him that before.

I remember the first time someone declined, I was confused at first because up to that point I had conducted countless BEPC's. In all honesty encountering someone who wants to decline doesn't happen often, but it is addressed in the OI and I learned that lesson when my Flight Chief chewed my ass for not knowing the procedure. The next day I had to give guardmount training on the topic. Better believe I never forgot afterwards.

BRUWIN
05-23-2014, 03:07 PM
If you do happen to have a dead body in the trunk, I'd say refuse the inspection though.

Depends...it is not necessarily illegal to have a dead body in your trunk.

CYBERFX1024
05-23-2014, 07:20 PM
There is a really great blog about this on an obscure site called pickyourbattles.net It's about one man's journey to stick it to the man by making his car bullet proof and videotaping himself being as non compliant as possible at a checkpoint.

In all seriousness the laws are different everywhere but the Supreme Court precedent says checkpoints are legal if the duration is short and they are either announced or random. As far as an inspection at a checkpoint the officer needs to establish probable cause either via line of site search or some other form.

In the case of entering the base you don't have to submit to the search but they don't have to allow you entry either. They don't have a right to search your car without consent and you don't have a right to enter base property without their consent.

This is on another note though but I feel I have to say it. Oh how I miss PYB in the forums. He and Joe always kept it lively.

Sunshine52
06-12-2014, 07:10 PM
I refused consent once for a search that was being conducted on my vehicle as I was trying to LEAVE the base. Just prior to exiting, the guard pulled me over, read me the script and asked "do you consent to a search". At the time, I was already dealing with some AF BS and was frustrated that I was being subjected to some more random BS so I said "No". Based on his experssion, you would have thought I had grown another head and was turning multi shades of green. He clearly had never had anyone refuse consent before. After stumbling for a bit he said "Sir, I want to let you know that if you refuse consent your Commander will be informed for disciplinary action". I then reminded him I was a retiree and didn't have a Commander. At that point he went into panic mode and called over his partner who also had no clue as to what to do. It then became a comedy exercise as they spent the next 20 minutes on their radios talking to their supervision as to what to do with a retiree who refused consent for his vehicle trying to leave the base. However, after 20 minutes it was clear they were no closer to resolution and I was tired and ready to go home, so I called them over and gave them consent.

Ultimately, I'm sure if I had the patience and stomach for it, I could have waited them out until either they let me go, or they informed me I was barred from entry to the base. But ultimately, they couldn't lock me up for trying to leave the base.

TJMAC77SP
06-12-2014, 11:19 PM
I refused consent once for a search that was being conducted on my vehicle as I was trying to LEAVE the base. Just prior to exiting, the guard pulled me over, read me the script and asked "do you consent to a search". At the time, I was already dealing with some AF BS and was frustrated that I was being subjected to some more random BS so I said "No". Based on his experssion, you would have thought I had grown another head and was turning multi shades of green. He clearly had never had anyone refuse consent before. After stumbling for a bit he said "Sir, I want to let you know that if you refuse consent your Commander will be informed for disciplinary action". I then reminded him I was a retiree and didn't have a Commander. At that point he went into panic mode and called over his partner who also had no clue as to what to do. It then became a comedy exercise as they spent the next 20 minutes on their radios talking to their supervision as to what to do with a retiree who refused consent for his vehicle trying to leave the base. However, after 20 minutes it was clear they were no closer to resolution and I was tired and ready to go home, so I called them over and gave them consent.

Ultimately, I'm sure if I had the patience and stomach for it, I could have waited them out until either they let me go, or they informed me I was barred from entry to the base. But ultimately, they couldn't lock me up for trying to leave the base.

I don't think anyone said you would be locked up but barred from not only driving but possibly entering the base was a real possibility. The two cops were understandably confused as they had never run into someone who thought it worthwhile to waste so much time for nothing.

BTW: If they had been sharp cops they would have pointed out the sign at the base entrance which spells out that you had already given implied consent by entering the installation. They were more polite than I would have been.

EDIT: It's an inspection btw.......Random Vehicle Inspection

Grease Monkey
06-13-2014, 12:49 PM
I don't even get why they are asking for consent. They don't have to. Other than the fact that having your vehicle searched under his/her order is well within the base Commander's authority, you have already given your consent when you drove onto the base. It's called "implied consent", which means you know that by driving on base, your vehicle can be searched at any time. Knowing the potential for the search, the act of driving your vehicle onto base is accepting that risk and thus giving your consent.

sandsjames
06-13-2014, 01:53 PM
I don't even get why they are asking for consent. They don't have to. Other than the fact that having your vehicle searched under his/her order is well within the base Commander's authority, you have already given your consent when you drove onto the base. It's called "implied consent", which means you know that by driving on base, your vehicle can be searched at any time. Knowing the potential for the search, the act of driving your vehicle onto base is accepting that risk and thus giving your consent.

They do have to because generally the searches take place outside the gate.

Stalwart
06-13-2014, 02:09 PM
I understand the desire to sometimes 'stick it to the man' especially when frustrated with poorly thought or planned policies.

I am overall under-impressed by someone who when frustrated with a poor policy (random vehicle inspections, showing an ID at the PX/BX or the limited appointment scheduling at medical dental etc.) decides to take their frustration out on the E2, 3 or 4 who is just doing their job and happened to be on shift, manning the phone or counter and who are being given a hard time by someone senior 'because they can'. I have been much more impressed with people who write and sign an email/letter or stand up face to face with the policy maker and address their issues or concerns ... I just rarely see it since it is easier to be a bully to a junior than to stand up and possibly be rebuked by a senior.

sandsjames
06-13-2014, 02:13 PM
I understand the desire to sometimes 'stick it to the man' especially when frustrated with poorly thought or planned policies.

I am overall under-impressed by someone who when frustrated with a poor policy (random vehicle inspections, showing an ID at the PX/BX or the limited appointment scheduling at medical dental etc.) decides to take their frustration out on the E2, 3 or 4 who is just doing their job and happened to be on shift, manning the phone or counter and who are being given a hard time by someone senior 'because they can'. I have been much more impressed with people who write and sign an email/letter or stand up face to face with the policy maker and address their issues or concerns ... I just rarely see it since it is easier to be a bully to a junior than to stand up and possibly be rebuked by a senior.

Let's look at the positive side of things. This was a learning experience for those SPs and the squadron as a whole. I'm sure they all now know the proper response and won't run into the same confusion if it happens again. They will now be a much more effective force thanks to one guy being a dick.

Measure Man
06-13-2014, 02:26 PM
Let's look at the positive side of things. This was a learning experience for those SPs and the squadron as a whole. I'm sure they all now know the proper response and won't run into the same confusion if it happens again. They will now be a much more effective force thanks to one guy being a dick.

It sort of amazes me that they didn't know what to do. I would think this would come up as a natural question during training...I mean, most of us I'm sure also have thought "what happens if I say no?" You'd think every cop would be asking the same question when being trained.

I always thought they'd just hold you until they could get an specific order from the base commander to inspect your particular vehicle and then they wouldn't need consent...but, I do not know anything about it.

Stalwart
06-13-2014, 02:28 PM
Let's look at the positive side of things. This was a learning experience for those SPs and the squadron as a whole. I'm sure they all now know the proper response and won't run into the same confusion if it happens again. They will now be a much more effective force thanks to one guy being a dick.

I agree, I just shake my head when I see it happen and it is generally someone senior giving crap to someone junior because by virtue of rank the interpretation is the junior should just stand there and take it when the junior is just doing their job -- more than once I have stepped in to shut it down. I get just as irked at the BX/PX when I see people give the cashier a hard time that they have to show their ID ... I am fairly certain it isn't the cashier who established that policy.

Absinthe Anecdote
06-13-2014, 02:35 PM
I never understand why anyone thinks it is a good idea to screw with the police.

But a retiree being a dick to a young E-2 on the gate is even more bewildering.

From my perspective as a retiree, those kids on gate guard duty are as cute as German Shepard puppies.

Seriously, I view being mean to young airman like that as on par to kicking a puppy. WTF?

If I ever become that grouchy, bitter, and wrapped up in misery over trivial and routine annoyances, I hope that I can have a moment of clarity that allows me to jump off a bridge.

Rusty Jones
06-13-2014, 02:43 PM
You're allowed to be a dick to the E-nothing at the gate? Wow. All this time, I thought they had "positional authority."

Measure Man
06-13-2014, 02:48 PM
I never understand why anyone thinks it is a good idea to screw with the police.

I like watching those youtube videos where the Constitution warriors refuse to cooperate or answer questions at DUI checkpoints and record the encounter.

From what I gather, the police are allowed to briefly stop you and ask you if you've been drinking...you do not have to answer and they can't detain you any further unless you are suspected of a crime. So, you have these guys that record the encounter, they simply reply to the cops questions with "I do not answer questions." and then "Am I being detained or am I free to go?"

There are a bunch of videos on youtube like this....some of the cops get it and are really cool...others get all pissed off and frustrated. I don't get it. I think if I were a cop and someone was exercising their rights like that, I'd be pretty cool with it and send them away...I don't get the getting flustered over it...just like, "yeah, man, you don't have to answer and you're not being detained, America is great...take care now" Just by their refusal statements you get a pretty good idea if they've been drinking.

Absinthe Anecdote
06-13-2014, 03:22 PM
You're allowed to be a dick to the E-nothing at the gate? Wow. All this time, I thought they had "positional authority."

You'd be surprised at how rude some people are to young cops on the gate, but, yes it does backfire on them sometimes.

Thirty years ago, I was one of those young cops on the gate. Seatbelt enforcement was still a relatively new concept at the time, and people would give me all kinds of crap for asking them to buckle up.

I even had a few refusals, but I got into the habit of simply taking their IDs and making them wait for a patrol to come and write them a ticket.

Once, the Base CC came out for a post visit, and he asked me, "How's life on the main gate?" I was still green enough to answer him honestly and said, "I don't mind the bad weather so much, but I wish some people weren't so rude when I tell them to buckle up."

He started smiling, and said, "I want to see that." He made himself less visible by standing in the gate shack and waited. About the sixth car to come in contained a MSgt who started giving me guff, saying that his seatbelt was buckled and that I needed an eye exam.

"No Sir, your seat belt isn't buckled" That's when the Colonel stepped out of the gate shack and the MSgt's eyes nearly popped from their sockets.

The Colonel gave him a little speech about how he didn't appreciate people being rude to his gate guards. He seemed to enjoy checking seat belts because he stopped by a couple of more times.

That was enough of a victory for me to keep me happy during the remainder of my time on the gates.

Absinthe Anecdote
06-13-2014, 03:33 PM
I like watching those youtube videos where the Constitution warriors refuse to cooperate or answer questions at DUI checkpoints and record the encounter.

From what I gather, the police are allowed to briefly stop you and ask you if you've been drinking...you do not have to answer and they can't detain you any further unless you are suspected of a crime. So, you have these guys that record the encounter, they simply reply to the cops questions with "I do not answer questions." and then "Am I being detained or am I free to go?"

There are a bunch of videos on youtube like this....some of the cops get it and are really cool...others get all pissed off and frustrated. I don't get it. I think if I were a cop and someone was exercising their rights like that, I'd be pretty cool with it and send them away...I don't get the getting flustered over it...just like, "yeah, man, you don't have to answer and you're not being detained, America is great...take care now" Just by their refusal statements you get a pretty good idea if they've been drinking.

Before the advent of video cameras most police departments gave little training on such things, but I think more police departments are aware of people with video cameras, and are training their officers on the importance of keeping their cool and remaining professional.

I think the majority of the clowns who video tape their encounters with law enforcement are on fishing expeditions. They are hoping to get a cop to lose their cool, some to post on the web for chuckles, others to score some lawsuit money if they get a cop that really blows his stack and does something stupid.

sandsjames
06-13-2014, 03:43 PM
If I ever become that grouchy, bitter, and wrapped up in misery over trivial and routine annoyances, I hope that I can have a moment of clarity that allows me to jump off a bridge.We'll keep hoping with you.

sandsjames
06-13-2014, 03:45 PM
Before the advent of video cameras most police departments gave little training on such things, but I think more police departments are aware of people with video cameras, and are training their officers on the importance of keeping their cool and remaining professional.

I think the majority of the clowns who video tape their encounters with law enforcement are on fishing expeditions. They are hoping to get a cop to lose their cool, some to post on the web for chuckles, others to score some lawsuit money if they get a cop that really blows his stack and does something stupid.

I sure do miss PYB.

Rusty Jones
06-13-2014, 03:50 PM
I sure do miss PYB.

Had he not left on his own, he'd have been permanently banned anyway. And likely, he'd have taken someone with him. Mostly TJ or myself. Hell, maybe even you, if he was able to push the right buttons.

sandsjames
06-13-2014, 03:54 PM
Had he not left on his own, he'd have been permanently banned anyway. And likely, he'd have taken someone with him. Mostly TJ or myself. Hell, maybe even you, if he was able to push the right buttons.

Yeah, sooner or later. Almost there without him so I'm sure the board would probably look a little different if he did drag everyone behind him.

SomeRandomGuy
06-13-2014, 03:59 PM
I agree, I just shake my head when I see it happen and it is generally someone senior giving crap to someone junior because by virtue of rank the interpretation is the junior should just stand there and take it when the junior is just doing their job -- more than once I have stepped in to shut it down. I get just as irked at the BX/PX when I see people give the cashier a hard time that they have to show their ID ... I am fairly certain it isn't the cashier who established that policy.

Had a friend who was the cashier at a deployed location in Iraq. The base commander policy was that everyone WILL get an Eagle Cash card whether you want one or not. It was a rather ridiculous requirement but it was the policy. My friend actually had a printed copy of the base commander's policy just to show people who questioned it. One day this guy is at the cage giving him shit about the policy. He is standing there arguing with the customer when all of the sudden the base commander happens to walk into finance. The customer is still arguing and my friend says, you know what there is the base commander right there why don't you ask him. The customer tries to sheepishly back down but it's too late the base commander already heard "base commander". He walks over and says, "What's the problem?" My friend says, "I believe Col. X here has a problem with your Eagle Cash card policy" Oddly, the Col had nothing to say to the Wing Commander (General).

sandsjames
06-13-2014, 04:05 PM
Had a friend who was the cashier at a deployed location in Iraq. The base commander policy was that everyone WILL get an Eagle Cash card whether you want one or not. It was a rather ridiculous requirement but it was the policy. My friend actually had a printed copy of the base commander's policy just to show people who questioned it. One day this guy is at the cage giving him shit about the policy. He is standing there arguing with the customer when all of the sudden the base commander happens to walk into finance. The customer is still arguing and my friend says, you know what there is the base commander right there why don't you ask him. The customer tries to sheepishly back down but it's too late the base commander already heard "base commander". He walks over and says, "What's the problem?" My friend says, "I believe Col. X here has a problem with your Eagle Cash card policy" Oddly, the Col had nothing to say to the Wing Commander (General).

That's too bad. The Col should have told the Wing Commander what a stupid policy it was. Maybe not in front of everyone, but in private. Sometimes the leadership needs to hear it from someone else in a leadership postion in order to actually listen.

Absinthe Anecdote
06-13-2014, 04:39 PM
We'll keep hoping with you.

Sorry pal, but I'm not the one who acts like a pouty child over emails about 5k runs, and other "unnecessary bullshit" like unit PT.

I do know a few people like that, both in real life, and on the forms.

sandsjames
06-13-2014, 05:29 PM
Sorry pal, but I'm not the one who acts like a pouty child over emails about 5k runs, and other "unnecessary bullshit" like unit PT.

I do know a few people like that, both in real life, and on the forms.You forgot about volunteering.

LogDog
06-13-2014, 05:58 PM
You'd be surprised at how rude some people are to young cops on the gate, but, yes it does backfire on them sometimes.

Thirty years ago, I was one of those young cops on the gate. Seatbelt enforcement was still a relatively new concept at the time, and people would give me all kinds of crap for asking them to buckle up.

I even had a few refusals, but I got into the habit of simply taking their IDs and making them wait for a patrol to come and write them a ticket.

Once, the Base CC came out for a post visit, and he asked me, "How's life on the main gate?" I was still green enough to answer him honestly and said, "I don't mind the bad weather so much, but I wish some people weren't so rude when I tell them to buckle up."

He started smiling, and said, "I want to see that." He made himself less visible by standing in the gate shack and waited. About the sixth car to come in contained a MSgt who started giving me guff, saying that his seatbelt was buckled and that I needed an eye exam.

"No Sir, your seat belt isn't buckled" That's when the Colonel stepped out of the gate shack and the MSgt's eyes nearly popped from their sockets.

The Colonel gave him a little speech about how he didn't appreciate people being rude to his gate guards. He seemed to enjoy checking seat belts because he stopped by a couple of more times.

That was enough of a victory for me to keep me happy during the remainder of my time on the gates.
Good story. I'm retired and live near a Navy base in the San Diego area. Sometimes when I enter the base the young cops at the gate get a puzzled look on their face trying to figure out what rank SMSgt is on my ID card. One young female cop had a strained look on her face and finally said "Senior Master Sergeant?" I asked her "Is that your final answer?" She said yes and a waited a few seconds and I finally said "Yep" at which time she a big smile came on her face and did a fist-pump.

Sunshine52
07-29-2014, 01:38 AM
I don't think anyone said you would be locked up but barred from not only driving but possibly entering the base was a real possibility. The two cops were understandably confused as they had never run into someone who thought it worthwhile to waste so much time for nothing.

BTW: If they had been sharp cops they would have pointed out the sign at the base entrance which spells out that you had already given implied consent by entering the installation. They were more polite than I would have been.

EDIT: It's an inspection btw.......Random Vehicle Inspection

Correct.

And to be clear, I wasn't rude or obtuse. I just politely and honestly answered their question.

I'd also point out that just because an Airman wears a badge or is young doesn't mean I need to automatically succumb to a) a stupid policy and/or b) poor training by the SF leadership team.

After I refused consent they asked me to step away from the vehicle and went about their business trying to figure out a solution. Good for them for handling it professionally. Bad on them for inconveniencing dozens of others without understanding the policy and/or the implications of how to respond if someone answered "no".

Ultimately I was looking for one of either two responses from the SF;
1- Sir, since you're on a federal installation, you automatically agree to consent to a search
or
2- Sir, since you refuse consent the consequences are .....

These guys knew neither. They just expected every one to roll over and sign the consent form while being dazzled by their shiny badges, M4s and bandoliers of ammunition. Needless to say, I wasn't dazzled.

The one thing I've learned after my career is that just because you carry a gun, or fly a plane, or wear stars, or have WG/CC as a title, doesn't make you any better or necessarily smarter than anyone else. If you create and enforce a stupid policy, you better be able to answer to those who see it as such and call you out on it.

TJMAC77SP
07-29-2014, 01:16 PM
Correct.

And to be clear, I wasn't rude or obtuse. I just politely and honestly answered their question.

I'd also point out that just because an Airman wears a badge or is young doesn't mean I need to automatically succumb to a) a stupid policy and/or b) poor training by the SF leadership team.

After I refused consent they asked me to step away from the vehicle and went about their business trying to figure out a solution. Good for them for handling it professionally. Bad on them for inconveniencing dozens of others without understanding the policy and/or the implications of how to respond if someone answered "no".

Ultimately I was looking for one of either two responses from the SF;
1- Sir, since you're on a federal installation, you automatically agree to consent to a search
or
2- Sir, since you refuse consent the consequences are .....

These guys knew neither. They just expected every one to roll over and sign the consent form while being dazzled by their shiny badges, M4s and bandoliers of ammunition. Needless to say, I wasn't dazzled.

The one thing I've learned after my career is that just because you carry a gun, or fly a plane, or wear stars, or have WG/CC as a title, doesn't make you any better or necessarily smarter than anyone else. If you create and enforce a stupid policy, you better be able to answer to those who see it as such and call you out on it.


I really didn't need you to tell me I was correct. Unlike the hapless airmen that ran into you that day I am a bit more seasoned and am very aware of what to do when faced with your type.

So, I am confused, your point was to test the complete job knowledge of the two young airmen assigned to the task? That was you point that day?

Is that an assigned task you had or just a hobby?

AFKILO7
07-29-2014, 05:14 PM
A) The policy is directed by the WG/CC, is it a dumb policy because you think so? Why do you feel it is dumb? Because it creates an inconvenience? Or do you feel superior to everyone else?
B) Yes the reaction to your situation could be fixed by better training. Depending on the installation and the policy governing BECP's specifically you could have your driving privileges revoked.


You are a piece of shit. Kick rocks.

sandsjames
07-29-2014, 06:11 PM
The one thing I've learned after my career is that just because you carry a gun, or fly a plane, or wear stars, or have WG/CC as a title, doesn't make you any better or necessarily smarter than anyone else. It took you until after your career to learn this?

Stalwart
07-29-2014, 06:46 PM
I'd also point out that just because an Airman wears a badge or is young doesn't mean I need to automatically succumb to a) a stupid policy and/or b) poor training by the SF leadership team.

So you think

a): The policy is stupid (it may be) and instead of taking it up with the person who approved the policy, you took it up with the young enlisted guy just trying to do his job?

b) Their training sucked. Yeah, their training on the policy may have sucked, you could call or visit the SF squadron and talk to their Chief about it ... or the Commander if you are so inclined. Maybe you did ... I don't know, but most people won't because that is harder than picking on the guy at the gate.



The one thing I've learned after my career is that just because you carry a gun, or fly a plane, or wear stars, or have WG/CC as a title, doesn't make you any better or necessarily smarter than anyone else.

Neither does a blue ID card.



If you create and enforce a stupid policy, you better be able to answer to those who see it as such and call you out on it.

So the approx. 20 year old AMN with a year or two in the Air Force didn't think to ask his trainer a question that to you, who retired with (at least?) 20 years of service would have asked. When they didn't know, you could have (as the older/wiser one in the group) given your consent and then mentioned they should figure out how to answer that question; you would have probably left a better impression that I would guess you actually did.