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Measure Man
05-14-2014, 03:46 PM
SEOUL — The men tending to a U.S. soldier after he was knocked out in an early-morning street brawl turned down multiple offers to call an ambulance, according to two managers at a hip hop club that he was thrown out of after getting into an argument with other troops.

Spc. Carl A. Lissone died about 10 hours later from a brain hemorrhage, following a train ride to a city some 40 miles away and a short stay in a hotel just outside the Army base where he was stationed.

Whether the beating alone killed Lissone, or whether immediate medical care may have saved his life could determine if any charges are filed.

South Korean police say all those involved — in the fight and Lissone’s trip to Pyeongtaek — were U.S. troops, including his alleged attacker, identified by a Pyeongtaek police official as a roughly 20-year-old U.S. servicemember stationed at Osan Air Base.

Few details have been released about the May 4 incident.

The U.S. military has taken the lead in the investigation with assistance from South Korean police, who interviewed Lissone’s suspected attacker as well as the soldiers who were with him. The National Forensic Service conducted an autopsy on Lissone; only the cause of death has been released so far.

Police said at least four U.S. servicemembers were involved in the fight that occurred well after the 1 a.m. curfew for troops here. It is unclear how many people tried to assist Lissone.

A Pyeongtaek police official on Wednesday could not confirm accounts by the managers of Club Naked in Hongdae, a popular entertainment district, that employees offered to call an ambulance for Lissone after the 3:45 a.m. altercation.

One of the managers, speaking on condition of anonymity, said a bouncer kicked out a group of men who were arguing. He did not know how many were involved or what started the dispute.

When the manager went outside to smoke, he saw Lissone unconscious and leaning against the wall of a nearby store. He told his employees to bring water and paper towels to help clean him up but said it seemed “unthinkable” that the soldier might die.

South Korean police say that even though Lissone was bleeding from the nose and ears, the group took a train from Seoul to Pyeongtaek, home to U.S. Army Garrison Humphreys, where Lissone, an information technology specialist, was stationed with the 304th Expeditionary Signal Battalion, 1st Signal Brigade.

The group arrived around 7:30 a.m. at the Royal Hotel, about a five-minute walk from Humphreys in a run-down neighborhood of bars, restaurants, hotels and knockoff clothing stores geared toward the local military community. A hotel employee said two men were holding up Lissone and put him in a chair. As they checked into a room, the men told the desk clerk that Lissone was drunk and that they planned to stay for only a short rest.

Police said video footage recorded by a street camera showed a foreigner administering CPR to Lissone outside the hotel around 1 p.m. He was taken to a Pyeongtaek hospital at 1:16 p.m. and pronounced dead a short time later.

The Club Naked manager said that while U.S. troops usually don’t cause trouble at the club, the business decided after the incident to ban all servicemembers under 21 — a move that would reinforce the U.S. Forces Korea policy that bans drinking by troops under 21. The legal drinking age in South Korea is 19.

Read more: http://www.stripes.com/news/korean-bar-managers-say-troops-turned-down-offers-for-help-before-soldier-died-1.282973


Tragic all around...soldier dead, airman likely facing life-altering charges...hard to say what was going through everyone's minds for sure, but I suspect the fact that they would all get busted for being out past curfew played a role in their decisions.

Giant Voice
05-14-2014, 04:58 PM
I guess I have never understood the hostility between the 4 services. Everytime I've been TDY to any location, we always get a local area brief and one of those is "don't go to this bar or club because of X service lives there and if you look at them wrong there will be a fight". Even when I was in Korea, there was always fights breaking out between the AF and the Army for no other reason than that. We still had fights between ourselves, but normally that was something that bred from the workplace.

I'm wondering, do other services give the same briefs when they come TDY to AF bases and the surrounding areas?

efmbman
05-14-2014, 05:02 PM
I guess I have never understood the hostility between the 4 services. Everytime I've been TDY to any location, we always get a local area brief and one of those is "don't go to this bar or club because of X service lives there and if you look at them wrong there will be a fight". Even when I was in Korea, there was always fights breaking out between the AF and the Army for no other reason than that. We still had fights between ourselves, but normally that was something that bred from the workplace.

I'm wondering, do other services give the same briefs when they come TDY to AF bases and the surrounding areas?

I've never received that briefing. The attitude from my leaders was always the same: we all work for the same guy. Look out for each other regardless of the uniform.

Giant Voice
05-14-2014, 05:50 PM
Well, maybe not everytime I've been TDY, but enough for it to stick in my memory.

Our bosses always said the same thing about one team, one fight, but thats not always the case.

Stalwart
05-14-2014, 06:10 PM
I'm wondering, do other services give the same briefs when they come TDY to AF bases and the surrounding areas?

I have seen some good inter-service rivalry but nothing to the point of physically fighting someone with the impetus of the fight being that rivalry. There are stereotypes for every branch, and there are generalities I would associate to every branch too ... and there are exceptions to every one of those.

As far as getting briefs when deployed etc. of "Don't go here because that is a [fill in the blank service] hangout" ... no, I have never seen that.

garhkal
05-14-2014, 07:50 PM
For my career, most of those {Dont go to this place} type briefings were cause of the criminality of the place, whether due to the sex trade, drugs or something else. Rarely did we get told {dont go here, cause the AF or Marines occupy it and will beat your a((}

Absinthe Anecdote
05-14-2014, 07:57 PM
Well, maybe not everytime I've been TDY, but enough for it to stick in my memory.


Okinawa during the late 1990's was the only place that I ever got a briefing like that.

There were certain Marine bars in Naha that it wasn't advisable for an airmen to go to.

There was a weird crips & bloods type rivalry going on in Okinawa at the time between different Marine infantry units. If I remember correctly, a bunch of street gang members joined the Marines back then, and that type of behavior got out of hand for a while.

Most of the units I served in where joint service and fights were rare.

sandsjames
05-14-2014, 09:24 PM
Okinawa during the late 1990's was the only place that I ever got a briefing like that.

There were certain Marine bars in Naha that it wasn't advisable for an airmen to go to.

There was a weird crips & bloods type rivalry going on in Okinawa at the time between different Marine infantry units. If I remember correctly, a bunch of street gang members joined the Marines back then, and that type of behavior got out of hand for a while.

Most of the units I served in where joint service and fights were rare.

In Guam, when the Marines would come in to the Navy base for the weekend/week, the Air Force base was pretty much locked down. All clubs on the island were off-limits until the boat departed.

Measure Man
05-14-2014, 11:08 PM
For my career, most of those {Dont go to this place} type briefings were cause of the criminality of the place, whether due to the sex trade, drugs or something else. Rarely did we get told {dont go here, cause the AF or Marines occupy it and will beat your a((}

Me too.

Never heard of being briefed that a bar was for other services. Maybe some informal word-of-mouth stuff from other bar-hoppers.

I have seen bars placed off-limits for criminal activity though...and at Osan in the wake of 9/11 some were placed off-limits for not implemented security measures insisted on by the base. In the old days, bars were placed off-limits for "homosexual activity" too.

garhkal
05-15-2014, 05:51 AM
In Guam, when the Marines would come in to the Navy base for the weekend/week, the Air Force base was pretty much locked down. All clubs on the island were off-limits until the boat departed.

When was that? I was stationed there from 05-07 and never saw anything of that nature.

ChiefB
05-15-2014, 09:20 AM
Tragic all around...soldier dead, airman likely facing life-altering charges...hard to say what was going through everyone's minds for sure, but I suspect the fact that they would all get busted for being out past curfew played a role in their decisions.

What's even more tragic is the Stripes article itself that says "at least four U.S. servicemembers were involved in the fight", ... " including his alleged attacker, identified by a Pyeongtaek police official as a roughly 20-year-old U.S. servicemember stationed at Osan Air Base" that leaves one to believe an airman fought 3 service members resulting in one fatality or was it one soldier fighting 3 other service members resulting in his own subsequent death? Or, was it two on two? How was it that police/Stripes determined that of the four individuals involved, it was the airman aka "a roughly 20-year-old U.S. servicemember stationed at Osan Air Base" that was the "attacker"/killer?

The fact that the victim's battle buddies decided to defer medical care, allegedly, "South Korean police say that even though Lissone was bleeding from the nose and ears, the group took a train from Seoul to Pyeongtaek"... is surprising because such bleeding is a sure sign of cranial hemorrhage, taught in most military combat life saving classes, resulting from concussion from bomb blasts and other head trauma.

Even though suffering as he was, their reported failure to quickly get him medical care bespeaks not only of juvenile decision making but of the possible failure of command to emphasize in training and briefings that in any off-duty emergency situation, saving your buddy's life is of paramount importance. Their taking positive action could subsequently be a major factor in amelioration of any disciplinary proceedings resulting from alleged actions such as curfew, drinking or fighting violations and preclude charges of negligence, criminal or otherwise.

After this incident and Stripes article let's hope that it does not ignite subsequent dangerous confrontations between the Services.

sandsjames
05-15-2014, 11:16 AM
When was that? I was stationed there from 05-07 and never saw anything of that nature.

I was there in 96/97.

ihatenonners
05-15-2014, 11:40 AM
The 1am curfew got this kid killed. Period. This blood is on the hands of leadership that continues to treat grown men and women as children just as much as its on the hands of the attacker(s). I promise you the curfew is the ONLY reason his friends didnt take him to a hospital. Bar fights are going to happen no matter what and cannot be prevented. The curfew serves no purpose, has ruined too many careers, and I have no doubt this kid would be alive today if it were not in effect.

firenomore
05-15-2014, 01:57 PM
Initially I go along with that, but the curfew is lifted at 5 am if I'm not mistaken, so by the time they got off the train, they still could have gotten him medical care right there at Humphrey's. Instead, they chose to check into a hotel at 7 in the morning when they were essentially at home. I can see where the logic played into it though. If they report the times that everything happened, then that's trouble too. I agree that leadership has blood on its hands with the curfew, but much more so the friends with the stupidity of not getting him help.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-15-2014, 03:39 PM
In head injury cases there is something known as the golden hour, it is the first hour after the injury occurs, if the injured person gets to the hospital during that first hour, they have a fighting chance. After that, the swelling causes too much damage and their chances of surviving goes down dramatically.

Those guys let their friend down, period. Being afraid of getting busted on a curfew violation when your friend's life is on the line, is inexcusable.

Trying to blame leadership and the curfew policy is pure chicken shit. When a person's life and health is on the line, you get them to the fucking hospital and worry about getting in trouble later.

I'll call those guys cowards for what they did.

Trying to deflect blame onto the curfew policy is ludicrous. What about their responsibility as friends to the guy who died?

In my book, you just don't let a friend die like that.

Stalwart
05-15-2014, 04:30 PM
I tend to disagree with blaming the death on the curfew. I am not debating the need, correctness or appropriateness of the curfew at all ... but the soldier is not dead because of a curfew, he is dead because he received a brain injury. Was the brain injury treatable? I don't know ... but it does seem those people with him did not follow through on helping him .

Doing the right is doing the right thing, regardless of the consequences, the people accompanying the now dead soldier had a friend in distress, helping him & not keeping their ass out of a sling should have been foremost on their minds.

Two wrongs do not make one right.

Measure Man
05-15-2014, 05:34 PM
In head injury cases there is something known as the golden hour, it is the first hour after the injury occurs, if the injured person gets to the hospital during that first hour, they have a fighting chance. After that, the swelling causes too much damage and their chances of surviving goes down dramatically.

Those guys let their friend down, period. Being afraid of getting busted on a curfew violation when your friend's life is on the line, is inexcusable.

Trying to blame leadership and the curfew policy is pure chicken shit. When a person's life and health is on the line, you get them to the fucking hospital and worry about getting in trouble later.

I'll call those guys cowards for what they did.

Trying to deflect blame onto the curfew policy is ludicrous. What about their responsibility as friends to the guy who died?

In my book, you just don't let a friend die like that.

Yes. I wouldn't go so far as to say the curfew killed this guy.

I do think it generally causes more problems than not...when I was at Osan, most of the trouble happened right at curfew as 400 guys were coming on base and fighting over 2 taxis. Due to curfew, I think people went out earlier and drank more...economy of scarcity.

I also remember Fri and Sat nights when I would really feel like going home at 11 pm, but felt obligated to stay out until curfew.

garhkal
05-15-2014, 09:10 PM
I was there in 96/97.

Maybe it changed/shifted from that time then..

WeaponsTSGT
05-16-2014, 03:53 PM
Yes. I wouldn't go so far as to say the curfew killed this guy.

I do think it generally causes more problems than not...when I was at Osan, most of the trouble happened right at curfew as 400 guys were coming on base and fighting over 2 taxis. Due to curfew, I think people went out earlier and drank more...economy of scarcity.

I also remember Fri and Sat nights when I would really feel like going home at 11 pm, but felt obligated to stay out until curfew.

I think he was on the right track when saying curfew but I would not say that was the problem. I've been stationed in Korea both with and without a curfew all the same problems ensue. My guess is that they thought nothing more had happened than a fight and he was knocked out, secondly my guess is that they were afraid of repercussions of bringing him back to post/base. They would of likely been buttfucked for doing the right thing, be it an ARI or out past curfew, this is now a one strike military.

Chief_KO
05-16-2014, 09:41 PM
Korea has always had a curfew (83-85, 89-90, 94-98 are my times of reference). This issue (problem) is on the enforcement of said policy.

Up till Doc became 51FW/CC, the policy was the bars closed at curfew (or at least closed their doors & rolled down the shutters). "Coffee shops" remained open (no one had any coffee in their cups). Town Patrol would come in and look around, then leave. If you were "acting a fool" you would be escorted out. If you were outside and walking towards somewhere (back to base, off base residence, etc.) you were okay. If you were loitering, then you would be told to start moving (as long as you were not in the same spot when TP came back you were okay).
Then came Doc...not on base when curfew sounded: Arrest.

Chief_KO
05-16-2014, 09:46 PM
One Saturday afternoon in downtown Songtan (circa 1990). Base ambulance pulled up in front of one of the clubs on the main street. I forget the name, but the staircase was nearly perpindicular.
The medics ran in, then ran back out to get the wooden back board. About 15 mins later they came up with an older man strapped onto the gurney. A second older man was walking with them. (Older for the sake of this story is someone in their mid-to late 40's...common amoungst senior leaders).

As the SPs and EMTs were getting all the personal information from the second older man, one question was "Who is your unit First Sergeant?" To which the older man pointed to the man strapped to the wooden back board. To which the SP now asked "Who is your unit commander?" to which the older man then pointed to himself.

Fun times indeed!

Silverback
05-21-2014, 02:30 PM
One Saturday afternoon in downtown Songtan (circa 1990). Base ambulance pulled up in front of one of the clubs on the main street. I forget the name, but the staircase was nearly perpindicular.
The medics ran in, then ran back out to get the wooden back board. About 15 mins later they came up with an older man strapped onto the gurney. A second older man was walking with them. (Older for the sake of this story is someone in their mid-to late 40's...common amoungst senior leaders).

As the SPs and EMTs were getting all the personal information from the second older man, one question was "Who is your unit First Sergeant?" To which the older man pointed to the man strapped to the wooden back board. To which the SP now asked "Who is your unit commander?" to which the older man then pointed to himself.

Fun times indeed!

Chief,

I am stationed over here right now and that is exactly the kind of culture that they are trying to stop. There are those here who say ten years ago you could do a lot more things than you can now. This is my first over here so I really have no reference for myself. All I know is that it Korea is not the place where you want mess up.

Sergeant eNYgma
05-24-2014, 09:46 AM
In head injury cases there is something known as the golden hour, it is the first hour after the injury occurs, if the injured person gets to the hospital during that first hour, they have a fighting chance. After that, the swelling causes too much damage and their chances of surviving goes down dramatically.

Those guys let their friend down, period. Being afraid of getting busted on a curfew violation when your friend's life is on the line, is inexcusable.

Trying to blame leadership and the curfew policy is pure chicken shit. When a person's life and health is on the line, you get them to the fucking hospital and worry about getting in trouble later.

I'll call those guys cowards for what they did.

Trying to deflect blame onto the curfew policy is ludicrous. What about their responsibility as friends to the guy who died?

In my book, you just don't let a friend die like that.

I agree, you don't do that shit...Iid feel better taking my ass chewing and other punishments KNOWING my friend made it and is alive. These retards have to live with the consequences from their chain AND he fact that the friend didn't make it. I don't but blaming this on curfew either...wtf does Korea have so special that you need to be out at those hrs anyway? This was nothing but friends NOT being friends....