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Measure Man
04-25-2014, 04:53 PM
So, this guy has turned out to be quite a character, huh?

SomeRandomGuy
04-25-2014, 05:02 PM
So, this guy has turned out to be quite a character, huh?

I only saw a very small quote on what he said. He came nowhere close to getting across his main point. What I think he was trying to say is that black people used to be slaves on the white man's farm. They depended on the man to provide for them. Now they are free but instead of depending on the man they depend on the government. It's an interesting point but I'm positive that a white redneck farmer probably isn't the best person to deliver that message.

SomeRandomGuy
04-25-2014, 05:38 PM
Here is a short post one of my Black friends posted on this subject (or at least I think it relates). I think what Clive was trying to say and what many have tried to say is a message that needs to heard. The problem is that by making it about race the mesage gets lost. Read the quote below but where it says "black" instead just imagine "poor". The mordern day person is a slave to the government and always will be.




This article was read on a New York radio station having been written by a Caucasian male. I know it might not apply to you but it makes you think a little bit and is very hard to swallow, but, to some extent this man is right. Please read his write up to the end.
"We can continue to reap profits from the Blacks without the effort of physical slavery. Look at the current methods of containment that they use on themselves: IGNORANCE, GREED, and SELFISHNESS.

Their IGNORANCE is the primary weapon of containment. A great man once said, "The best way to hide something from Black people is to put it in a book." We live now in the Information Age. They have gained the opportunity to read any book on any subject through the efforts of their fight for freedom, yet they refuse to read. There are numerous books readily available at Borders, Barnes & Noble, and Amazon.com, not to mention their own Black Bookstores that provide solid blueprints to reach economic equality (which should have been their fight all along), but few read consistently, if at all.

GREED is another powerful weapon of containment.
Blacks, since the abolition of slavery, have had large amounts of money at their disposal. Last year they spent 10 billion dollars during Christmas, out of their 450 billion dollars in total yearly income (2.22%). Any of us can use them as our target market, for any business venture we care to dream up, no matter how outlandish, they will buy into it. Being primarily a consumer people, they function totally by greed. They continually want more, with little thought for saving or investing. They would rather buy some new sneaker than invest in starting a business. Sometimes even neglect their children to have the latest Tom Ford or Polo. And they still think that having a Mercedes, and a big house gives the "Status" or that they have achieved the American Dream. They are fools! The vast majority of their people are still in poverty because their greed holds them back from collectively making better communities. With the help of BET, and the rest of their Black media that often broadcasts destructive images into their own homes, we will continue to see huge profits like those of Tom Ford and Nike. (Tommy Hilfiger and Eddie Bauer along with Ralph Lauren has even jeered them, saying they don't want their money, and look at how the fools spend more with them than ever before!). They'll continue to show off to each other while we build solid communities with the profits from our businesses that we market to them.

SELFISHNESS, ingrained in their minds through slavery, is one of the major ways we can continue to contain them. One of their own, W. E. B. Dubois said that there was an innate division in their culture. A "Talented Tenth" he called it. He was correct in his deduction that there are segments of their culture that has achieved some "form" of success. However, that segment missed the fullness of his work. They didn't read that the "Talented Tenth" was then responsible to aid the Non-Talented Ninety Percent in achieving a better life. Instead, that segment has created another class, a Buppie(wanting to fit in rather than see the truth for what it is) class that looks down on their people or aids them in a condescending manner. They will never achieve what we have. Their selfishness does not allow them to be able to work together on any project or endeavor of substance. When they do get together, their selfishness lets their egos get in the way of the goal. Their so-called help organizations seem to only want to promote their name without making any real change in their community. They are content to sit in conferences and conventions in our hotels, and talk about what they will do, while they award plaques to the best speakers, not the best doers. Is there no end to their selfishness?

They steadfastly refuse to see that "TOGETHER EACH ACHIEVES MORE (TEAM)! They do not understand that they are no better than each other because of what they own. In fact, most of those Buppies are but one or two paychecks away from poverty. All of which is under the control of our pens in our offices and our boardrooms.

Yes, we will continue to contain them as long as they refuse to read, continue to buy anything they want, and keep thinking they are "helping" their communities by paying dues to organizations which do little other than hold lavish conventions in our hotels. By the way, don't worry about any of them reading this letter, remember, 'THEY DON'T READ!!!!"

AJBIGJ
04-25-2014, 05:54 PM
Here is a short post one of my Black friends posted on this subject (or at least I think it relates). I think what Clive was trying to say and what many have tried to say is a message that needs to heard. The problem is that by making it about race the mesage gets lost. Read the quote below but where it says "black" instead just imagine "poor". The mordern day person is a slave to the government and always will be.

It's definitely an interesting bit of speculation, albeit maybe a tad defeatist for my tastes. I do think many of what we might label as "failings" in the "black community" are essentially the results of a dog chasing its own tail*

*This is not a comparison of a person who belongs to a certain race to a household pet, if this is what anyone felt was being inferred.

AJBIGJ
04-25-2014, 06:03 PM
The Cliven Bundy case is a great example of why I hate the sound-byte intensive media.
http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/unedited-tape-bundy-emerges-sheds-light-racist-remarks#.U1qOV_uHVF0.twitter
http://theblacksphere.net/2014/4/black-marine-clive-bundy-no-racist
Not even voicing necessarily a specific agreement, but I think his motives are a little less clear when we add some context.

Rainmaker
04-25-2014, 06:04 PM
So, this guy has turned out to be quite a character, huh?

Straight out of the Chosen News Network Playbook...

"Breaking NEWS!!!! An old cattle Rancher in the Nevada Desert actually used the actual word Negro!!!!! Oh my GOD!!!! He might even actually hate Peoples of COLOR!!!!"
Never mind Cliven Bundy's claims that his grazing rights proceeded the BLM and whether or not he can be forced into a contract by the Federal Government that removes all those rights.
Let's not ask any questions like why did the Feds send an army of agents out into the desert to steal a couple of cows?

Or don't ask about Harry Reed and the Chinese solar deal.

Now he'll morph into George Zimmerman or Timothy McVeigh.

Measure Man
04-25-2014, 06:31 PM
Straight out of the Chosen News Network Playbook...

Good grief.


"Breaking NEWS!!!! An old cattle Rancher in the Nevada Desert actually used the actual word Negro!!!!! Oh my GOD!!!! He might even actually hate Peoples of COLOR!!!!"

Never mind Cliven Bundy's claims that his grazing rights proceeded the BLM and whether or not he can be forced into a contract by the Federal Government that removes all those rights.
Let's not ask any questions like why did the Feds send an army of agents out into the desert to steal a couple of cows?[/quote]

Plenty have had that discussion and asked those questions, but that's not what this thread is about. Separate and very interesting discussion.


Or don't ask about Harry Reed and the Chinese solar deal.

Separate discussion...so, in order to discuss Bundy's comments we have to first discuss every Democratic congressmen's actions? What a load of crap..."Don't talk about this because there are other things"


Now he'll morph into George Zimmerman or Timothy McVeigh.

Mainstream media, blah blah blah...

AJBIGJ
04-25-2014, 06:45 PM
Separate discussion...so, in order to discuss Bundy's comments we have to first discuss every Democratic congressmen's actions? What a load of crap..."Don't talk about this because there are other things"


If such is your interest, what is your position on my previous comments about Bundy's comments?

Measure Man
04-25-2014, 06:46 PM
Here is a short post one of my Black friends posted on this subject (or at least I think it relates). I think what Clive was trying to say and what many have tried to say is a message that needs to heard. The problem is that by making it about race the mesage gets lost. Read the quote below but where it says "black" instead just imagine "poor".

So, your point here is that if you replace the word Black with Poor, this article of generalizations, gross exaggerations, and character assassinations would not be a racist?

I suppose one could say that.

If someone says, "I hate all Jews" they are anti-semitic. If they say, "I hate all vegetables" They are not.


The mordern day person is a slave to the government and always will be.

When the govt. starts beating us, making work in the field, selling off our children to others...they we can talk about this. Until then, it's nonsense.

MrMiracle
04-25-2014, 06:47 PM
Slow news day.

Rainmaker
04-25-2014, 06:47 PM
Mainstream media, blah blah blah...[/QUOTE]

The conversation headed in one direction. Obviously that was by design. Whether Cliven Bundy is a racist or not, Rainmaker doesn't know and doesn't care. Because, It's Cliven Bundy's Opinion (probably based on His Observations). But, if you'd rather focus on Mother Jones propoganda than have at it.

Measure Man
04-25-2014, 06:47 PM
The Cliven Bundy case is a great example of why I hate the sound-byte intensive media.
http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/unedited-tape-bundy-emerges-sheds-light-racist-remarks#.U1qOV_uHVF0.twitter
http://theblacksphere.net/2014/4/black-marine-clive-bundy-no-racist
Not even voicing necessarily a specific agreement, but I think his motives are a little less clear when we add some context.

I don't think this "full context" makes it any better....and I think Bundy drastically overestimates the joys of being a slave.

Measure Man
04-25-2014, 06:53 PM
The conversation headed in one direction. Obviously that was by design. Whether Cliven Bundy is a racist or not, Rainmaker doesn't know and doesn't care. Because, It's Cliven Bundy's Opinion (probably based on His Observations). But, if you'd rather focus on Mother Jones propoganda than have at it.

Not one direction, but one issue. Obviously, a few posters on here think good ol' Cliven is right on point.

AJBIGJ
04-25-2014, 06:54 PM
I don't think this "full context" makes it any better....and I think Bundy drastically overestimates the joys of being a slave.

I personally find the "full context" to make this more of an issue of his more frequently broadcast being poorly worded, not quite so much racist. He seems to be taking a more empathetic approach to the plight of the various races than would be typical of an individual who considers an individual of a given race as inferior. To me it seems more symptomatic of someone who doesn't dance around the language he uses to meet the arbitrary standards of political correctness. If this doesn't make things a little suspect for you, all I can say is I never before considered you to be a person who was given to emotional over-reaction to misinformation. We're all vulnerable, nothing personal against you. But I find it interesting that you still find the comments offensive afterwards. They're just words used to express a contextual train of thought. The train of thought is the important factor.

TJMAC77SP
04-25-2014, 06:56 PM
I don't think this "full context" makes it any better....and I think Bundy drastically overestimates the joys of being a slave.

I didn't read that he was attempting to paint slavery as a good thing and I think the full context does give a more accurate picture of what I believe he was trying to say. I also think there has been a certain level of sensationalizing this story and now his remarks. Having said that I have never been able to figure out why he has garnered the support he has. While a valid argument could be engaged about how much land the BLM controls in the West this isn't really the issue here. He failed to pay grazing fees for 20 years or so (while other ranchers have paid those fees) and now the federal government is attempting to do something about it. I believe he has gone through the courts and lost repeatedly so now he just takes the law into his own hands. A dangerous precedent to say the least. I think he is an old man who uses language which was perfectly acceptable (and actually preferred) at one time. He is obviously inarticulate but as to the rest I just don't know.

Measure Man
04-25-2014, 07:09 PM
I personally find the "full context" to make this more of an issue of his more frequently broadcast being poorly worded, not quite so much racist.

That's the trouble with them people...[/irony]


He seems to be taking a more empathetic approach to the plight of the various races than would be typical of an individual who considers an individual of a given race as inferior.

They ain't inferior, but he knows better what's good for 'em!


To me it seems more symptomatic of someone who doesn't dance around the language he uses to meet the arbitrary standards of political correctness.

I'll give you that one.


If this doesn't make things a little suspect for you, all I can say is I never before considered you to be a person who was given to emotional over-reaction to misinformation.

What misinformation have I been reacting to?


We're all vulnerable, nothing personal against you. But I find it interesting that you still find the comments offensive afterwards. They're just words used to express a contextual train of thought. The train of thought is the important factor.

AJBIGJ
04-25-2014, 07:23 PM
What misinformation have I been reacting to?

Good question! I'll turn that around and ask you the same?

The problem I have here is in what I am seeing with once again drawing in the topic of "race" into modern discussions. The sheer notion of saying that something is more statistically typical of members belonging to one demographic subgroup than is typical of another, and everybody's hair is set alight!

Statistically speaking, many individuals with black skin have sold themselves into a new form of "slavery" that strangely doesn't have chains, to be more accurate it is really more of a "serfdom" or "indentured servitude". My impression is that is the message he wished to communicate, and that he is in fact empathetic towards the culture that has driven people to do so. This is of course true with other races and ethnicities, but is certainly very prevalent in one single community.

Rainmaker
04-25-2014, 07:26 PM
Not one direction, but one issue. Obviously, a few posters on here think good ol' Cliven is right on point.

"The black family survived centuries of slavery and generations of Jim
Crow, but it has disintegrated in the wake of the liberals' expansion
of the welfare state." -Thomas Sowell


This is pretty much what Cliven was getting at. That and that North Las Vegas is a Shithole. What would you expect him to say? He's a rancher not a politician.

Measure Man
04-25-2014, 07:30 PM
Good question! I'll turn that around and ask you the same?

I never claimed you were reacting to misinformation.


The problem I have here is in what I am seeing with once again drawing in the topic of "race" into modern discussions. The sheer notion of saying that something is more statistically typical of members belonging to one demographic subgroup than is typical of another, and everybody's hair is set alight!

I didn't see any of that in his comments


Statistically speaking, many individuals with black skin have sold themselves into a new form of "slavery" that strangely doesn't have chains, to be more accurate it is really more of a "serfdom" or "indentured servitude".

I really think all of this nonsense about food stamps or govt. assistance as beeing a form of slavery, serfdom or indentured servitude is just that...nonsense. Can you explain exactly how some is indebted to, working for, or owned by the govt. for accepting assistance? How are they unable to leave the situation? How are they coerced physically or by law of remaining so?


My impression is that is the message he wished to communicate, and that he is in fact empathetic towards the culture that has driven people to do so. This is of course true with other races and ethnicities, but is certainly very prevalent in one single community.

AJBIGJ
04-25-2014, 07:31 PM
I never claimed you were reacting to misinformation.


I mean you, what were YOU reacting to, I never claimed to be a mind-reader!

AJBIGJ
04-25-2014, 07:33 PM
I really think all of this nonsense about food stamps or govt. assistance as beeing a form of slavery, serfdom or indentured servitude is just that...nonsense. Can you explain exactly how some is indebted to, working for, or owned by the govt. for accepting assistance? How are they unable to leave the situation? How are they coerced physically or by law of remaining so?

What's ironic is you are 100% correct, the only limitation they have is an inherent unwillingness to rise above it. Some people apparently get votes strictly by their ability to keep it that way!

Although I will submit, I can think of PLENTY of laws that by net effect erect barriers to increase the challenge of doing so!

Measure Man
04-25-2014, 08:08 PM
I mean you, what were YOU reacting to, I never claimed to be a mind-reader!

You certainly claimed I was having an emotional reaction to misinformation.

I deny that. I'm not asking you to read my mind...I never said I was emotionally reacting to misinformation.

But, I think I get it....Mr. Bundy feels that if he had purchased and owned his own grazing land instead of it being provided (at a cost he's not paying anyway) by the government, he would be more free.

I suppose there is some truth to that. By the govt. more or less not kicking him off their land 20 years ago (or collecting a fair grazing fee), he is now, more or less, a slave to them. Is that right?

Measure Man
04-25-2014, 08:11 PM
What's ironic is you are 100% correct, the only limitation they have is an inherent unwillingness to rise above it.

There is nothing ironic about me being correct.

Also, I don't know what you mean by "inherent" here?


Some people apparently get votes strictly by their ability to keep it that way!

Although I will submit, I can think of PLENTY of laws that by net effect erect barriers to increase the challenge of doing so!

That is a pretty far cry from serfdom, indentured servitude and slavery...

AJBIGJ
04-25-2014, 08:14 PM
You certainly claimed I was having an emotional reaction to misinformation.

I deny that. I'm not asking you to read my mind...I never said I was emotionally reacting to misinformation.

But, I think I get it....Mr. Bundy feels that if he had purchased and owned his own grazing land instead of it being provided (at a cost he's not paying anyway) by the government, he would be more free.

I suppose there is some truth to that. By the govt. more or less not kicking him off their land 20 years ago (or collecting a fair grazing fee), he is now, more or less, a slave to them. Is that right?

Pretty much yes, I was making sure you were at least attempting to move past an ill-worded sound byte and put out the feeler for whether or not he actually had any valid points. Plus, I'll be frank I was appealing a bit to personal vanity in the process of such. It's a skill set so few people employ as is evidenced by all of this "Bundy is Racist!" controversy.

AJBIGJ
04-25-2014, 08:15 PM
There is nothing ironic about me being correct.


Ironic in the sense that the situation exists, and it is entirely self-inflicted by the individuals themselves, to elaborate on my meaning by "ironic".

Some people actually do believe themselves stuck in their present situations. Some others encourage that belief, do you disagree?

Measure Man
04-25-2014, 08:18 PM
Pretty much yes, I was making sure you were at least attempting to move past an ill-worded sound byte and put out the feeler for whether or not he actually had any valid points. Plus, I'll be frank I was appealing a bit to personal vanity in the process of such. It's a skill set so few people employ as is evidenced by all of this "Bundy is Racist!" controversy.

I still think he has got some racist views going on...he can obviously see the problems with blacks getting govt. assistance, but can not see his own.

AJBIGJ
04-25-2014, 08:23 PM
I still think he has got some racist views going on...he can obviously see the problems with blacks getting govt. assistance, but can not see his own.
I'll be the one needing clarification of your meaning this go-around. What specifically are you referring to when you say "his own"?

Measure Man
04-25-2014, 08:24 PM
Ironic in the sense that the situation exists, and it is entirely self-inflicted by the individuals themselves, to elaborate on my meaning by "ironic".

Some people actually do believe themselves stuck in their present situations. Some others encourage that belief, do you disagree?

Pretty impossible to disagree with that statment. There are always "some people" to believe in pretty much anything.

Measure Man
04-25-2014, 08:25 PM
I'll be the one needing clarification of your meaning this go-around. What specifically are you referring to when you say "his own"?

The fact that he has willingly given away his freedom by not owning the land his cattle graze on.

AJBIGJ
04-25-2014, 08:27 PM
Pretty impossible to disagree with that statment. There are always "some people" to believe in pretty much anything.

Which is the part I was referencing when I made the statement that it was "ironic". I would say statistically speaking, there is a large representation of individuals in what we refer to in the "black community" who do hold such a belief, either about themselves or others.

AJBIGJ
04-25-2014, 08:28 PM
The fact that he has willingly given away his freedom by not owning the land his cattle graze on.

Need still more clarification than that, did he do that or did the state of Nevada?

Rainmaker
04-25-2014, 08:29 PM
You certainly claimed I was having an emotional reaction to misinformation.

I deny that. I'm not asking you to read my mind...I never said I was emotionally reacting to misinformation.

But, I think I get it....Mr. Bundy feels that if he had purchased and owned his own grazing land instead of it being provided (at a cost he's not paying anyway) by the government, he would be more free.

I suppose there is some truth to that. By the govt. more or less not kicking him off their land 20 years ago (or collecting a fair grazing fee), he is now, more or less, a slave to them. Is that right?

This raises two questions in Rainmaker's mind.
1. What is a "fair" grazing fee? and
2. After years of paying, Why did Cliven all of a sudden stop paying grazing fees in 1992? what changed about the terms that caused him to stop paying? and
3. Do, you think Maybe there's a reason the other 46 ranchers in clark county went under? Why would the BLM want to put ranchers in Nevada out of business?

Measure Man
04-25-2014, 08:35 PM
Which is the part I was referencing when I made the statement that it was "ironic". I would say statistically speaking, there is a large representation of individuals in what we refer to in the "black community" who do hold such a belief, either about themselves or others.

More of a self-fulfilling prophecy than irony.

I do tend to believe that many of the poor are poor because they don't know any other way, or because they don't believe they can be any other way...

...but, I don't think providing food stamps, welfare and housing assistance necessarily makes it moreso. It's possible that faced with NOT having a place to stay and food to eat that more would pull themselves out of poverty through desperation to find whatever employment they could, and begin to see a way forward from there....However, for that to happen we have to accept that some will not and I know "some people" are just fine with that..."some others" are not.

I do believe "some people" grossly exaggerate the negative affect of govt. subsidies on the "willingness to work" of the poor.

Measure Man
04-25-2014, 08:38 PM
Need still more clarification than that, did he do that or did the state of Nevada?

The state of Nevada?

As I understand it...the land he was using was federally owned. Purchased by the federal government, which they would allow him to use for a fee. Bundy's stance was that he does not recognize the right of the federal govt. to own property in the state of Nevada (I wonder if he feels this entitles him to enter Nells AFB?), so he would not pay the fee.

Measure Man
04-25-2014, 08:40 PM
This raises two questions in Rainmaker's mind.
1. What is a "fair" grazing fee? and

Is he forced to use it?


2. After years of paying, Why did Cliven all of a sudden stop paying grazing fees in 1992? what changed about the terms that caused him to stop paying?

Clinton got elected?


and
3. Do, you think Maybe there's a reason the other 46 ranchers in clark county went under?

Hard to compete with the corporate feedlots?


Why would the BLM want to put ranchers in Nevada out of business?

I give up...why?

Rainmaker
04-25-2014, 08:46 PM
The fact that he has willingly given away his freedom by not owning the land his cattle graze on.

Taylor Grazing Act. Fees were based on acreage rather than head of livestock. This changed in 1992. Hillbillary didn't take office till 93. The Federal Government is not the United States. Rainmaker sure he can't explain this to someone who thinks It's really about the Tortises.

Measure Man
04-25-2014, 08:48 PM
The Federal Government is not the United States.

I said the land was federally owned...that is all. Is that incorrect?


I guess you think It's really about the Tortises.

I'm not going to play your guessing game all day...if you have a point, just make it.

So, if the land is owned by the "Federal Government" and not the "UNited States", what difference does it make why they don't want him to graze on their land?

Measure Man
04-25-2014, 08:54 PM
Taylor Grazing Act. Fees were based on acreage rather than head of livestock. This changed in 1992.

Okay...so he no longer thought the fee was fair...why did he continue using the land?

I once had a landlord that wanted to charge me extra for having an extra person in the house. Instead of charging for the property, they wanted to charge per head. I moved.


Hillbillary didn't take office till 93.

Elected in 92


The Federal Government is not the United States. Rainmaker sure he can't explain this to someone who thinks It's really about the Tortises.

I said nothing about tortises (sic)

Rainmaker
04-25-2014, 08:59 PM
I said the land was federally owned...that is all. Is that incorrect?



I'm not going to play your guessing game all day...if you have a point, just make it.

So, if the land is owned by the "Federal Government" and not the "UNited States", what difference does it make why they don't want him to graze on their land?

What difference does it make? ok, you sound like Hillary. But, Rainmaker's point is this. What if tommorrow they don't want you to drive on their roads? so, What if tommorow, they make it too expensive for you to drive to work (in the name of protecting some worm that crosses the interstate). Or so they can use the public roads (built with our tax dollars) for their own personal financial interest? if you don't think it's fair or if you can't afford it, then, you can just quit right? No one makes you work or drive. The land is not OWNED by the federal government. It is MANAGED by the Federal government in Trust of the people. This is the crux of the matter. why would they want Cliven Bundy and every other cattle rancher in Clark county out of business? seems like they should want them to suceed right?

Measure Man
04-25-2014, 09:20 PM
What difference does it make? ok, you sound like Hillary. But, Rainmaker's point is this. What if tommorrow they don't want you to drive on their roads? so, What if tommorow, they make it too expensive for you to drive in the name of protecting some worm that crosses the interstate. Or so they can use the public roads (built with our tax dollars) for their own personal financial interest? The land is not OWNED by the federal government. It is MANAGED by the Federal government in Trust of the people. This is the crux of the matter. NomSayin?

You raise an interesting point...a proper response would require more homework than I am prepared to do at this moment.

I do believe the federal govt does OWN the land in question and it's legal right to do that has been backed up by the Supreme Court. Not in this specific case, but in precendent.

The roads and highway are different as that land is held for an enumerated purpose...again, to really get it right, would take a lot more homework.

But, I see what you are trying to say...I just don't think the legal issue regarding the status of highway land vs. grazing land is as simple black and white as portrayed by a lot of the radio-host and internet "truth" sites. Grazing land is not even a govt. function.

AJBIGJ
04-25-2014, 09:25 PM
The state of Nevada?

As I understand it...the land he was using was federally owned. Purchased by the federal government, which they would allow him to use for a fee. Bundy's stance was that he does not recognize the right of the federal govt. to own property in the state of Nevada (I wonder if he feels this entitles him to enter Nells AFB?), so he would not pay the fee.

It's a LOOOONGGG conversation regarding eminent domain and land ownership rights in areas of the Western United States vs. the Eastern United States but suffice it to say, Cliven Bundy does NOT choose to recognize federal ownership of the land, which is part of where this whole problem started. On such a level, I have a hard time finding where we can apply such a term as "racist" in this context because nowhere does it suggest the feelings of an individual that believes in the superiority of one race to the next nor some form of animosity towards another race. It does lend to a possibility of "inconsistency" in his logic or maybe even "hypocrisy" but it's hard to apply racism behind his intent. I never considered most cattle ranchers to be effective orators, but that may be yet another stereotype that could very well be proven to be untrue.

AJBIGJ
04-25-2014, 09:27 PM
More of a self-fulfilling prophecy than irony.

I do tend to believe that many of the poor are poor because they don't know any other way, or because they don't believe they can be any other way...

...but, I don't think providing food stamps, welfare and housing assistance necessarily makes it moreso. It's possible that faced with NOT having a place to stay and food to eat that more would pull themselves out of poverty through desperation to find whatever employment they could, and begin to see a way forward from there....However, for that to happen we have to accept that some will not and I know "some people" are just fine with that..."some others" are not.

I do believe "some people" grossly exaggerate the negative affect of govt. subsidies on the "willingness to work" of the poor.

I think to blame the malaise on the food stamps is akin to blaming the mass shootings on the type of weapon used. It clearly enables the severity but is not a cause of the psychological disorder which leads to such a thing.

Rainmaker
04-25-2014, 09:32 PM
You raise an interesting point...a proper response would require more homework than I am prepared to do at this moment.

I do believe the federal govt does OWN the land in question and it's legal right to do that has been backed up by the Supreme Court. Not in this specific case, but in precendent.

The roads and highway are different as that land is held for an enumerated purpose...again, to really get it right, would take a lot more homework.

But, I see what you are trying to say...I just don't think the legal issue regarding the status of highway land vs. grazing land is as simple black and white as portrayed by a lot of the radio-host and internet "truth" sites. Grazing land is not even a govt. function.

Rainmaker comes from one of the original pioneer families in the Allegany wilderness. By the 1950's they were subsistence farmers reduced to 88 acres and His peeps were the last in the county to fold (through imminent domain to the coal mines). They gave them enough money to buy a 1000 SF house in the city. That land had been in family hands for more than 150 years. But, they got to keep the 3 acre cemetery though. Rainmaker used to deer hunt and fish on the old family land. PoPs and Uncle Joe knew all the best spots. after strip mining, it's been reclaimed now. would probably make a nice farm for someone. But, I think it's Federally "owned" now. fair has nothing to do with it. People need to care about these issues. but, it takes too much "homework" and they're more worried about an old man saying the word Negro. It's social conditioning. allows people to be exploited in the name of helping them. Oh well it's Friday Bitchez. so Now, Rainmaker gotta go to his bug out location and work on his preps. over.

AJBIGJ
04-25-2014, 09:40 PM
Rainmaker comes from one of the original pioneer families in the Allegany wilderness. By the 1950's they were subsitence farmers reduced to 88 acres and His peeps were the last in the county to fold (through immenint domain to the coal mines). They gave them enough money to buy a 1000 SF house in the city. That land had been in family hands for more than 150 years. But, they got to keep the 3 acre cemetary though. Rainmaker used to deer hunt on the land. it's been reclaimed. would make a nice farm. But, I think it's Federally "owned" now. fair has nothing to do with it. People need to care about these issues. but, they're more worried about an old man saying the word Negro. It's social conditioning. Now, Rainmaker gotta go to his bugout location and work on his preps. over.
Big moral question I tend to wonder from all of this is how different is the thought process going into this from the concept of "Manifest Destiny" of yesteryear? While clearly the two aren't identical issues, are there parallels we should be watching for because to me, there seems a fair chance of watching history repeat itself. But of course our sensibilities have evolved well-beyond that point, right?

Measure Man
04-25-2014, 09:53 PM
Rainmaker comes from one of the original pioneer families in the Allegany wilderness. By the 1950's they were subsistence farmers reduced to 88 acres and His peeps were the last in the county to fold (through imminent domain to the coal mines). They gave them enough money to buy a 1000 SF house in the city. That land had been in family hands for more than 150 years. But, they got to keep the 3 acre cemetery though. Rainmaker used to deer hunt and fish on the old family land. PoPs and Uncle Joe knew all the best spots. after strip mining, it's been reclaimed now. would probably make a nice farm for someone. But, I think it's Federally "owned" now. fair has nothing to do with it. People need to care about these issues. but, it takes too much "homework" and they're more worried about an old man saying the word Negro. It's social conditioning. allows people to be exploited in the name of helping them. Oh well it's Friday Bitchez. so Now, Rainmaker gotta go to his bug out location and work on his preps. over.

I bow to your history on the issue, but I don't think Bundy is in the same situation.

Measure Man is 3rd generation US born on his father's side...and 1st generation US born on mother's side.

Don't think anyone has ever had more land than maybe a large backyard...we're mostly working class city folk. But, I'm sure you're too worried about your preps to care about the plight of city folk.

Chief_KO
04-26-2014, 02:49 PM
Al, Peg, Kelly, & Bud Bundy are much more interesting.